Talk:Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

Infobox

Could this article benefit from an infobox? I thought that since it didn't have one yet, there must surely be a reason, and therefore I ask.--Simen113 (talk) 06:57, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Suggest you read Talk:Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart/Archive 8, Talk:Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart/Archive 10, Talk:Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart/Archive 12, and Talk:Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart/Archive 13.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 07:01, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

No, it couldn’t. “Infoboxes (are) neither required nor prohibited for any article” and based on that, a reason is therefore not needed. It works both ways: there needs to be a reason why articles carry an infobox, not simply for the sheer sake of consistency. In my estimation, around 65% of articles on WP use infoboxes incorrectly. This makes adding one look normal, which it’s not. Cassianto^Talk 07:54, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the replies. I guess that infoboxes too me are just to get a very quick overview of the person in question, or event for that matter. As is now I have to scroll to find the age at death, where it would be readily seen in articles with infoboxes (calculating age based on birth and death date can be somewhat tiring and hasslesome). Also the ability to quickly see place of death, burial and possible issue.--Simen113 (talk) 08:34, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Everything you need to know, including the answers to your questions, can be found in the archives. I don’t feel a need to rehash them here. Cassianto^Talk 09:11, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

After trawling the archives I have to say I haven't found all the answers I was looking for, nor any real vote as to whether or not to include an infobox. As much as I can appreciate the simplistic aesthetic of a simple photo, I do find a compromise with a short informative infobox most desirable.--Simen113 (talk) 14:44, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Here’s a novel idea; have you thought about reading the lead section? I guarantee everything you need to know will be in that. A short infobox would be even worse than a puffed out one. Cassianto^Talk 14:59, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Wow that was an unnecessarily snarky reply. I actually came to this article thinking that it would be nice to have an infobox that showed his birth and death dates and age at death for quick reference. Obviously this information can be found in the actual article however having it in an infobox as a quick reference would be pretty nice. Whether infoboxes are used incorrectly or not on many other articles has no bearing on this one. Ulysses S. Grant has an infobox and that is a featured article. A.S. Williams (talk) 02:42, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

And you have difficulty finding this information in the opening sentence of a standard-format biographical article? Really?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 06:04, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Considering that I am evidently literate and can form complete sentences it would appear that I do not have difficulty finding that information in the opening sentence of a standard-format biographical article, however Ludwig van Beethoven, Johann Sebastian Bach and George Frideric Handel all have a box that has that information, so what's up with all the hostility about this? Rather than making a person mentally do the math to figure out how old Mozart was at his death, a box like several other major composers have would appear to be reasonable. A.S. Williams (talk) 00:01, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Suggest you read the entire discussion preceding your message, including (especially) the archived discussions linked near the beginning. You will discover there that there is considerable opposition to inboxes, from editors who would be more than happy to support removal of the ones at the articles on Beethoven, Bach, and Handel, should the opportunity arise. Their various reasons are to be found in that voluminous discussion, and the links provided therein.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 03:41, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

There is absolutely no need to "mentally do the math" when the lede already mentions "portions of the Requiem, which was largely unfinished at the time of his early death at the age of 35" (bolding mine). There is only a need to read more than the first sentence of the lede. Double sharp (talk) 01:58, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

I suggest you just respect the dislike of some editors against a summary, - it's a waste of time to fight them. Of course, the normal biographical summary (which our MoS forbids) of where someone was born and when, died and when, and why we have an article on him, would not hurt. Beethoven got an infobox per community consensus. Those who don't like a box could even say so in their preferences and would not see it. But now it came to be a topic for an alleged war (see Pierre Boulez), and to stay away may be more productive. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:50, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

I am a bit confused, can you clarify what the Manual of Style forbids? Also, I don't have to respect anyone's like or dislike about something. I'll respect a well-founded argument. I am more than happy to read a rebuttal sans the sarcasm and condescension. A.S. Williams (talk) 12:48, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

The MoS is against mentioning places of birth and death in the lead unless significant, so for Mozart you have to dig in the lead and only find where he spent his last years, not where he died. An infobox has them nicely together, as also most encyclopedias I know. It would be good for Mozart if you ask me (see the last previous discussion, one of many) and Boulez (see the linked discussion) but it seems to ruin the peace of mind of some editors. The latest arbitration case (2018) didn't change much (if anything). I did my share, and came to better spend my time elsewhere. Love's Labour's Lost, DYK? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:11, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification! It's remarkable the silly things that people will go to the ends of the earth over. I came to ask a question and literally the next responses violated 2 of the first 3 guidelines at the very top of the page, Be Polite and Assume Good Faith. A.S. Williams (talk) 16:33, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

You don't need to tell me. The case was about civility, tempted to quote you, "remarkable ..." ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:51, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

"It's remarkable the silly things that people will go to the ends of the earth over". My thoughts about IB warriors exactly, particularly the ones who claim to "rarely talk about infoboxes", and yet find the time to talk about them frequently, even to the extent of keeping a hit list of those that are removed. Such obsession is neither collegiate nor constructive. - SchroCat (talk) 17:16, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

(What you said has nothing to do with Mozart. So I do the same.) I noticed that today you removed an infobox in an article you never edited, while the principal editor - although being around - did nothing. I noted the article, because next week I will have forgotten. Call that a hit-list if you have to. I call it a sad list, and hope it will stay short. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:10, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

And? The person who added the idiotbox has also never edited the article, and left absolutely no rationale for adding one. As to your hit list, the last time you had a page dedicated to listing IBs that were removed, it was deleted as being disruptive: it seems like that lesson wasn't really learnt. – SchroCat (talk) 19:26, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

You are so right. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:49, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

ps: for those who don't remember, from years ago, it refers to the talk of this my 2013 creed, which didn't change, and is not likely to change. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:38, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

I am not an info box "warrior" and I had not the slightest inkling about any of this until I asked the question in this talk page and was met with over the top hostility. A.S. Williams (talk) 00:23, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

If you consider that to be hostility, then you should practice what you preach and try to assume good faith. It was a straight answer you received, perhaps mildly pointy, but not hostile. (Mind you, if your opening statement is to try and criticise a post from six months ago, I do wonder why you bothered). And if you came for birth and death dates and age at the time death, all these are in the lead – two of them are even in the opening sentence. – SchroCat (talk) 06:00, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

I bothered because I saw that there wasn't a quick reference for that information, namely the age at death which is the primary reason I came to the article. Yes, I could do the math for the age at death or I could scan the entire first and second paragraphs and find it in the next to last sentence. Or there could be an infobox that instantly displays that information. You and I have differing opinions on what constitutes hostility and in my opinion sarcastic answers to honest questions qualifies. I'm not going to push for an IB on this article as it apparently constitutes a land war in Asia, so you can rest easy there. But in closing, I feel like the arguments against IBs amount to "Why buy a pizza already made when the ingredients to make it yourself are all there?" and the answer to that is convenience and time. Not everyone who comes to an encyclopedia is resting in their comfy chair in the den with a spot of tea looking for a deep and enriching experience. Sometimes people want information as quickly as possible. A.S. Williams (talk) 17:56, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Odd. It took me less than 10 seconds to find dates of birth and death and age at death. I have no idea what pizza has to do with Mozart, but I guess I'm too dumb to understand; enough brains to come to a text-based encyclopaedia and find three minor facts in less than ten seconds on a mobile phone while standing on a crowded commuter train (rather than sitting in a comfy chair in a den), but still too dumb to understand the pizza metaphor. Mileage varies, I guess, but having been around WP for several years, I can, at least, differentiate between hostility and mild pointiness. – SchroCat (talk) 19:30, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

See this is precisely what I'm talking about, this "I did it, how can there possibly be any other perspective since it was so easy for me, other people must be mentally deficient." Give me a break, please. A.S. Williams (talk) 16:25, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Who on earth mentioned anything about anyone being mentally deficient? Take the straw man arguments elsewhere please, I've heard them all before. - SchroCat (talk) 16:36, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Even if it's not necessary or required, it's an extremely common and useful resource for an article to have. My personal (unprofessional) opinion: This article should not be "held hostage" and pervented from having an infobox in an effort to challenge the norm. AvRand (talk) 04:03, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

If you have a new argument to offer, then please offer it. "Common and useful" and "personal opinion" do not constitute a sufficient response to what has been said ad nauseam here already.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 06:52, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Agree on the need for an infobox. I came here looking for simple information about his sons and don't want to hunt through a huge article for it. Brted (talk) 20:58, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

To judge from the infobox on Johann Sebastian Bach, whose sons were much more famous than Mozart's, I would guess that you would be disappointed. It appears there may not be a parameter for progeny. Have you tried searching the article for keyword "children"? There is also a table of contents just after the lead paragraph, where you will find a link to just what you are looking for. Well, almost just what you are looking for, since the list includes daughters as well as sons.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:52, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Also agree on the need for an infobox - if there are nuances associated with why an infobox would be confusing exclusively for composers, as compared to other groups of people for whom infoboxes are a prevalent practice then we should address them perhaps via the infobox template for composers, via guidelines, or by some other technique other than blocking them. Wikipedia users have become accustomed to perusing information at a glance in infoboxes; search engines are able to extricate key information from them, having data structured on the internet this way is extremely valuable for people and machine understanding. I think it's a shame that composers should be treated as a different class of people than other noteworthy people on this platform. I really wish we could reconsider the current consensus. Utility and accessibility are genuinely positive reasons and should not be dismissed. By using infoboxes we are ultimately making content on wikipedia generally more accessible to more people, including casual audience members, who may benefit from learning at a glance key attributes about composers that would aid them in their learning journey Mmkaram (talk) 06:54, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Google seems to do just fine presenting WAM's salient vitals without the aid of an infobox here – including his children (sons and daughters) – so that old argument is a furphy. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:00, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Mmkaram still has a point that there's no reasons composers are any different from anyone else. I've been saying that for years. No one has ever come up with a good reason why either. What Google does isn't relevant to Wikipedia. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 12:27, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Oppose addition of an infobox. Unnecessary. What Mmkaram says above "search engines are able to extricate key information from them, having data structured on the internet this way is extremely valuable for people and machine understanding" is a very good reason not to have the things imo, I don't want to write for machines and deeply resent being expected to be an unpaid volunteer for Google or Bing.Smeat75 (talk) 17:38, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

...but you're fine being an unpaid volunteer for Wikipedia? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 04:39, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes. We are all volunteers here, this site is funded by donations. If what I do here is helping multi billion dollar corporations like Google or Microsoft make more money I should be paid. The lamest argument ever for having infoboxes "machines can read them and it helps google and bing."Smeat75 (talk) 14:14, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

The simple truth about infoboxes is that they efficiently convey key information about the subject. I see no reason why Mozart shouldn't have an infobox, when Beethoven does. HAL333 (talk) 16:26, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, but read Talk:Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart/Archive 13#Give this an infobox. (more if you look for "infobox" in the archives): it seems a waste of time to argue about a topic where almost religious beliefs prevail. (I am the one who proposed Beethoven's, and was happy when it was installed as the community consensus.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:22, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I'd prefer an IB, also. Most people do, it's just a small group of editors who oppose it, for whatever reason. At least the “I don't write for google unpaid“-argument is kinda funny; what on earth has google's practice of information-gathering or -presenting to do with making an article more accessible to wikipedia readers? But I guess that has to do with perspective; wikipedia, a mere tool to present information! used to be about the readers - you know, these ungrateful, disruptive, money-donating idiots somewhere out there, who won't, or more likely can't contribute to anything wikipedia -, these days it's more about the authors, writing for themselves and presenting their style and opinions.

ImHo, every article about a person needs an IB. Because the fact that a reader can find the information -that's easily presented in an IB- somewhere else in the article - that's no argument. Following that logic we could delete the article altogether because the info therein can be found somewhere else on the internet.

It simply doesn't matter if the dates of birth, death etc. are somewhere else in the article. Info-Box = faster, easier and coherently. Faster and easier = good. Period. Plus one can opt-out of being shown IBs? Perfect. Lastly, you could just, you know, I know it's a crazy idea, but ... just don't fucking read it. No one is forced to read an info-box. It's just a tool, a possibility, and to use it is up to you. Taking the IB out does in no way improve the article; it just reflects what you like, or don't. On the other hand, an IB does nothing to diminish or change the article, you could easily ignore it. It just helps those people who quickly want to look up some basic facts. An improvement only helps those using it, of course. You clearly don't use it. But that's certainly no reason to deny it every other person, especially since it couldn't bother you, anyway. --Gott (talk) 15:53, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

On a side-note: There are 3 (well, 2 1/2) users opposing infoboxes; one was already sanctioned by ArbCom regarding infoboxes, the second is retired, and the last doesn't like google, or whatever. Wikipedia at it's best. --Gott (talk) 16:34, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

• Could you avoid talking about other editors or their opinions in a derogatory way, please. Focus on the content, not the contributors. Just for the record, the problems with many IBs, particularly this one, means I am also in favour of leaving the thing off the page. - SchroCat (talk) 11:35, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

SchroCat You asking other people to not be derogatory is a lot coming from you. But back to the content, just for the record, what is the problem with many IBs? HAL333 23:41, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Given you're trying to kick start a discussion from two months ago by opening with a dig against me, I'll pass (Particularly ironic given you've been notified of the ArbCom restrictions regarding civility in this area). - SchroCat (talk) 10:25, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

SchroCat So what are your reasons? Please tell HAL333 19:12, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I assume your silence means you have no solid reasons against IBs, right? HAL333 21:30, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I won't speak for SchroCat, but such an assumption is utterly false. As to your question: there are reams of material discussing the merits of infoboxes. Instead of asking to repeat them, it's reasonable to expect editors to catch up. Which policies/guidelines/discussions have you consulted so far? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 00:30, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I have consulted multiple guidelines and discussions, such as the one above, but I very few, if none, clear statements from my friend SchroCat, and would like them to state them so we can have a discussion over them to resolve this issue. HAL333 01:42, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

• HAL333, I have had to ask you at a previous IB discussion not to continually ping me. I repeat: stop pinging me. - SchroCat (talk) 08:16, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
• I respectfully disagree with those who claim that an infobox is unnecessary. It's not about consistency, it's about providing a quick overview which many people appreciate (usually dates and places of birth and death, age at death, citizenship or allegiance, spouses, etc.). Not allowing such an overview to be added to this article seems quite arbitrary and just another venue where those with top Wikipedia editing hats can wield their power as they see fit. That is neither democratic nor productive. Add an infobox and be done with it, and stop throwing pseudo-scientific reasons at people for not doing so. The sheer length of this discussion on the Talk page proves many people would like to have it included, so refusing to do so is clearly just antagonistic and negative in stance, and there's no room for that in an encyclopedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.67.13.101 (talk) 08:56, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes, long before I was an editor, I was a reader. And the first thing that I look at on an article is the infobox. It conveys information fast, information that I would have to spend multiple minutes searching for. At its root, an infobox is about efficiency. And even if there is an infobox and I don't look at it, there are NO negative effects. It doesn't harm me whatsoever. HAL333 21:29, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Yup. There are no arguments against IBs. And simply repeating "search for the arguments somewhere buried in the archives" doesn't help, either. Been there, done that. There are no arguments besides the personal dislike of a very tiny, very vocal and uncivil minority of editors.

I like to keep things simple and rational; an IB does take nothing away from the article. For people who prefer an IB that's a service, an easy addition w/o negative effect.

People who dislike IBs, on the other hand, can just not read it. Crazy idea, I know.

Or they can simply opt-out being displayed info-boxes.

Considering the opt-out possibility it's very clear that these editors aggressivly opposing IBs are only about strong-arming their personal tastes and opinions, and not about presenting information in the best and most reader-friendly way possible. --Gott (talk) 13:51, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

• Almost all famous people have an info box. I do not understand the objection. I also I came to this article thinking that it would have an infobox that showed his birth and death, age at death and family for quick reference. Telecine Guy (talk) 04:09, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 September 2018

Please change the link-url

https://web.archive.org/web/20091222083620/http://www.blb-karlsruhe.de/virt_bib/mozart/

to

https://digital.blb-karlsruhe.de/search/quick?query=mozart%20leopold&facets=collections%3D%2220953%22

Thank you! M Fischer (talk) 10:49, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. The two links don't go to the same content, so get consensus before changing it. RudolfRed (talk) 23:56, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 December 2018

Please add to the entry under "Honors" that reads as: 1770: Knight of the Order of the Golden Spur, by Pontifical Decree of Pope Clement XIV.[90]

to: 1770: Knight of the Order of the Golden Spur, by Pontifical Decree of Pope Clement XIV, received at age fourteen.[90]

It is certainly worth noting that Mozart was designated to receive such an award at such a young age. It may not be immediately apparent to readers that he was so young because they may gloss over the year the honor was awarded.

Thank you Seigristn (talk) 22:46, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Oppose; instead, the section "Honours", added in November 2016, ought to be removed. This order is of no significance to Mozart's life and works. BTW, it's surprising to see Mozart described as Strasburghense in that papal document. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:16, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. DBigXrayᗙ 08:35, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 March 2019

change baptized to baptized in the first line Tulane Fanatic 11 (talk) 17:34, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry, that meant to say change baptised to baptized in the first line. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tulane Fanatic 11 (talk • contribs) 17:37, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

This is written in British English, so there is no need to change the spelling. - SchroCat (talk) 22:45, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Regarding the "claimed" wording

Hello. As per the relevant guidelines regarding WP:CLAIM, "Said, stated, described, wrote, commented, and according to are almost always neutral and accurate." I tried to change it to "said", but it was swiftly reverted. According to the guideline, "To write that someone asserted or claimed something can call their statement's credibility into question, by emphasizing any potential contradiction or implying a disregard for evidence." Given that, I'm guessing "stated" or "written" would work better. Any thoughts? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 11:39, 25 June 2019 (UTC)