Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)

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Third opinion on the use of large quotations in some lists

Hi, I don't know if this is the right place to ask for opinions on this, or even if there is really a right place for that. In any case, it can't hurt....

Quickly put, I would like some third part opinions about the use of large (complete) citations of Medal of Honors as used in:

• List of Puerto Rican recipients of the Medal of Honor,
• Puerto Rican recipients of the Distinguished Service Cross and
• Puerto Rican recipients of the Navy Cross.

Generally speaking, I believe the articles would look more encyclopedic without them. Maybe Wikisource is a better place for this amount of primary-source material.

Thanks, --Damiens.rf 12:19, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Looking at the examples that you've provided here, I don't see any problem. Those look like excellent articles, actually. If the text from the citations were the only text in the article, or even if it were the predominant text in the article, then I might be troubled by it, but I don't see an issue with these examples. My only real quibble is that the footnoting for the citations should probably not use the ref/cite system, but that's an unrelated formatting issue.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 12:33, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

But the quotations are the predominant text in the article! The first article is 44kb long with the quotations, but just 12kb without them (72% of quotations). The second one is 44kb long with the quotations, and also just 12kb without them (also 72% made of quotations). The third is 20kb with the quotations and 8kb without them (60% of quotations). --Damiens.rf 12:54, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't share your view (obviously). I don't see the size of the text with or without the quotes as being meaningful of anything, other then the simple fact that the quotes contain a certain amount of text. The quoted text itself is visually distinct, making it easy enough to see the difference between the actual article content vs. the quoted citations. I don't see how removing the quoted text would make those articles better, and I actually think that removing it would make them worse due to the fact that it would be more difficult to understand what was being discussed.

Do you have a personal aversion to this text, or something? I'm scratching my head here slightly, wondering what your motivation in attacking the text of these award citations is.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 15:31, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

• I would like to express my opinion to this regard. The articles are excellent and the text from the citations are well sourced and imperative to the article. They tell us exactly why the people mentioned are mentioned or included in the article in the first place. I would like to note that these questions may not be as innocent as they seem and that it is believed by some that User: Damiens has problems with Puerto Rican related articles, see: [1] and [2]. Antonio Martin (talk) 15:42, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

• I see no issues with the quotes per se. As usual, {{cquote}} is misused; see the template documentation for the MOS references. The list format is different from other articles in the series such as List of African-American Medal of Honor recipients, but that should be worked out at WP:MILHIST. The DSC and NC are not inherently notable, so lists should be only of notable persons. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 20:41, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

• I think the quotes are too much, not necessarily in the context of being non-free content, but that we are not a memorial. It is certainly important to note who received these awards and for why, but the full quote of the "why" is so pontificating as to lose its encyclopedic value in this regard. --MASEM (t) 20:51, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

  FYI: the text for US military medal citations are PD, as documents of the US Federal Government.
  — V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 22:25, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

  If they are PD, then move the quotes to a nice table over at Wikisource, and only include enough here to understand the merits, with sister links to the Wikisource information. --MASEM (t) 14:05, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

• It seems to me a lot of the quoted material could be paraphrased without damaging the integrity of the article. The article as-is does seem to carry a lot of flavor of a WP:MEMORIAL rather than a typical encyclopedia entry. Shereth 22:42, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

  Well, I guess if you guys are really concerned about this then one of you should move this discussion to the talk page there and get the attention of the contributors to that page. I don't share the same concerns obviously, but I'm also not particularly interested in the article.
  — V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 14:38, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

• • The point is to raise the issue to a larger audience, since the audience of those articles' talk pages is just the users that wrote the article themselves (whose opinions understandably favor the status quo). Also, the issue appears as a pattern in many articles, and not just one. --Damiens.rf 17:13, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Why not move the quotes to Wikisource and link to them? Woogee (talk) 20:09, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

That's what I believe is the right thing to do. --Damiens.rf 20:26, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

• The articles would be best served by leaving the citation intact. Were these not lists, your argument might carry more weight (though not enough, in my opinion). However, worrying about the size of the article is meaningless, and there really aren't any concerns as far as I can tell in regards to MOS or copyright. Simply put, removing them makes the articles worse. Moving them to Wikisource might also set a bad precedent... there are many thousands (possibly even five digits) of articles, mostly biographies, that contain the text of citation for awards given by the United States military... would we want to move them all? In any case, this is best in the turf of WP:MILHIST. I also have to point out that there is some discussion at Wikipedia:An#Damiens.rf_block_review regarding whether or not this issue is simply the latest in a pattern of harassment by User:Damiens.rf; while it doesn't have a direct impact on the issue, we should keep in mind the possibility of bad faith. bahamut0013^words_deeds 20:17, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

• Just how many articles on Wikipedia need to be improved- couldn't we attempt that instead? These lists read well- so let sleeping dogs lie. It is inventing an issue that does exist. I wouldn't want to pen such an article- but if I did I would really resent them being destroyed by wiki-meddling. Just how many prolific editors have we lost due to wiki harrassment? I keep on thinking of putting together a todo list of more important tasks that talented wiki wonks could do that don't involve pointless destruction.--ClemRutter (talk) 21:41, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

• Just because there are other articles that need to be improved, it doesn't mean we shouldn't address this one now.

  I do believe there IS an issue with these articles are they are now, as User:Masem and User:Shereth expresses above, what goes inline with what is said on the guideline Wikipedia:Quotations. To "quote" the relevant passages:

  1. "...while quotations are an indispensable part of Wikipedia, try not to overuse them. Too many quotes take away from the encyclopedic feel of Wikipedia. Also, editors should avoid long quotations if they can keep them short."
  2. "...they also crowd the actual article and remove attention from other information."
  3. "Quotations should generally be worked into the article text, so as not to inhibit the pace, flow and organization of the article."
  4. "When not to use quotations: ": "the article is beginning to look like Wikiquote. (...) Wikipedia is, at its core, an encyclopedia, and not an opportunity to list the best and worst quotations pertaining to an article's subject."
  5. "If there are many quotations, please move them to Wikiquote and place a Wikiquote template on the article to inform readers that there are relevant quotations regarding the subject."
  6. "When not to use quotations": "the quotation is being used to substitute rhetorical language in place of more neutral, dispassionate tone preferred for encyclopedias. This can be a backdoor method of inserting a non-neutral treatment"

  Is this essay generally agreed or mostly ignored? --Damiens.rf 14:34, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Please, opinions based on the policy cited are welcome (conjectures about editor's intentions are not). I'll be doing the Wikisource thing within some days... any concrete objection? --Damiens.rf 14:51, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, there are very concrete objections, all mentioned above. There is even some discussion of appropriate changes to make discussed above.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 20:13, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Before mentioning Wikipedia:Quotations, the discussion was mostly based on personal taste (on both sides), and salted with some opinions about editors and not about the content. I wish I could hear objections that take in account what is said on Wikipedia:Quotations.

What are the "appropriate changes" you mention? The move to Wikisource? --Damiens.rf 03:40, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

It's unfortunate the issue seems so poisoned that we can't really discuss it on arguments grounded on policies, guidelines, etc.. --Damiens.rf 13:37, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Language help

Alconétar Bridge currently applies for GA status and being the main contributor, I am looking for some help with how to put one sentence (lead, 2nd paragraph). Which version sounds best?

1. The Alconétar Bridge carried the Roman road Via de la Plata, the most important north-south connection in western Hispania, on a length of almost 300 m across the largest river of the Iberian peninsula.
2. The ca. 300 m long Alconétar Bridge lay at the junction of the Roman road Via de la Plata, the most important north-south connection in western Hispania, with the Tajo, the largest river of the Iberian peninsula.
3. The ca. 300 m long Alconétar Bridge served as a crossing point for the Roman road Via de la Plata, the most important north-south connection in western Hispania, over the Tajo, the largest river of the Iberian peninsula.

Well, all a bit awkward, not? Gun Powder Ma (talk) 19:01, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Personally, I prefer a slightly modified version of 3) : "The almost 300 m long Alconétar Bridge served as a crossing point for the Roman Via de la Plata, the most important north-south connection in western Hispania, over the Tajo, the largest river of the Iberian peninsula." Can't put my finger on why I like it like that, but hey, I do. - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 19:30, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Take the 300 meter length out of the sentence and put it later in the introduction - it's one fact too many. Then I think the first sentence is best. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 19:31, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

"The Alconétar Bridge carried the Roman road Via de la Plata, the most important north-south connection in western Hispania across the largest river of the Iberian peninsula." is the one. Darrell_Greenwood (talk) 19:21, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

New sockpuppet investigations clerks needed

Hi folks. We have a need for some new clerks at WP:SPI, the sockpuppet investigations process. At SPI, clerks help the checkusers maintain the page by keeping cases organized, archiving them, tagging confirmed socks, endorsing checkuser requests and occasionally declining them. All final decisions, of course, rest with the checkusers. Both administrators and non-administrators can be trainees and full clerks. For example, Nathan, one of the clerks who has been there the longest, is not an administrator.

A few things to keep in mind if you think you might like to help us keep the sock menace down: (a) we generally don't take trainees with a recent block log or history of disruptive editing, (b) we would prefer trainees who can be regularly active and (c) we often use the IRC channel #wikipedia-en-spi on Freenode, which can be accessed using one of these tools or links, for coordination purposes. Please e-mail myself, Nathan, MuZemike or PeterSymonds if you're interested.

On behalf of the SPI clerk team, NW (Talk) 03:53, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Major project possibly coming down the pike.

I have been speaking with one of the principals of the New Georgia Encyclopedia, an online-only collection of about 2,200 professionally written and well-sourced articles relating to the state of Georgia, and about 5,000 corresponding images, about potentially migrating their entire collection to Wikipedia. My rough estimate is that this would include at least a thousand new articles, and the remainder would need to be maintained in Wikipedia:WikiProject Georgia (U.S. state) project space until they could be fully merged in to the appropriate existing articles. In each case, proper attribution to both the origin project and the original authors would need to be maintained in the article, along with a link to the original article. Three to four of the authors who have worked on those articles would also likely be joining Wikipedia, and that WikiProject specifically, in order to watch these articles as they are transitioned into our system (I have already cautioned them not to expect to be able to assert ownership of the content once the articles are here, and that objections to changes will have to be addressed by discussion and generating a consensus). If the remaining principles of the New Georgia Encyclopedia are agreeable to our incorporation of their work, this could provide substantial new opportunities for Wikipedia to incorporate similar works, and could generate some good publicity regarding the reliability and utility of Wikipedia. They may wish to begin by allowing us to import a small number of articles as test cases, to see how they fare in terms of vandalism and other issues that may arise in this process. Please let me know if you have any particular concerns or thoughts about this, as I will hopefully be having a conference call with all of the principles within the next week. Cheers! bd2412 T 02:01, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Ace! @harej 02:05, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Hopefully, but if they agree to this, we have to be able to pull this off in a professional manner - a clean, smooth transition, and a quick response to any vandalism (including, really especially, sneaky vandalism) to a set of articles the inclusion of which may garner some publicity. bd2412 T 02:12, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Presumably the images would go to Commons? Is someone co-ordinating that side of things? Carcharoth (talk) 07:17, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I may have jumped the gun on the images - they come with different licensing issues, so right now we're only looking at the articles themselves. bd2412 T 23:48, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Here is a bit of a status update as well. The party with whom I have been speaking is circulating a memorandum of understanding among his colleagues spelling out the situation, particularly the attribution to which the NGE and its individual article authors would be entitled, and the treatment those articles would receive here on Wikipedia. I've been asked to recommend a handful of articles to be imported to Wikipedia or merged into existing Wikipedia articles, as a test of how this transition will work. I plan on picking about a dozen and proposing them to my counterpart this evening. bd2412 T 00:51, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I had a conference call this afternoon with two parties to the New Georgia Encyclopedia, and gave them a bit more insight into how things work here. This may be a process that takes a few days or a few weeks to iron out, but I feel that it is definitely moving in the direction of inclusiveness for the time being. bd2412 T 02:42, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Regarding images for this project, according to the parties with whom I have spoken, there are a number of images on the NGE which are in the public domain, and which we are therefore free to copy. Clicking on any image in their system should bring up a page on that image including attribution information at the bottom. If that information indicates that the image was produced by the state of Georgia, it is free for us to copy. If not, we should leave it alone for now. bd2412 T 15:31, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

British-Pathé news clips archive

I recently discovered the British-Pathé website/archive of thousands of news clips and stock video footage from the 1890s to the 1970s, and want to ask here where it would be best to post to draw people's attention to what looks like an under-used resource (about 130 pages link to that website at the moment), especially for the clips from the first half of the 20th century, where there is lots of historical stuff likely not available elsewhere. The website is here. As they are a proprietary site, selling access to the high-resolution versions of the clips (the free previews are low-resolution), what I propose to do is:

• (1) Post to Wikipedia talk:External links/Noticeboard about when linking to these clips is appropriate (done here).
• (2) Post to several WikiProjects that might be interested in searching for clips to add to the external links of some articles (here and here).
• (3) Add some links to clips myself for some articles I've been working on (three diffs).
• (4) Add the British-Pathé Film Archive to Wikipedia pages that list similar resources (not quite right, but tried here and here).

What I wanted to ask here was whether anyone knows what the page on Wikipedia is that lists similar news/video archives? And can anyone think of which WikiProjects would be interested in knowing about this? And are there other places on Wikipedia where I could tell more people about this resource? Carcharoth (talk) 06:27, 14 January 2010 (UTC) Updated with diffs and links. 08:12, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

MedCab backlog

Just dropping a note here that the Mediation Cabal is backlogged, so we need help. Please see Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal#Backlog for details about the cases we have available. Thanks, The Wordsmith^Communicate 17:52, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Editing from a DS

From the Wikpediholic test, I've gotten to thinking that this is possible. I'd like to do so. Any help? Buggie111 (talk) 01:18, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I think I remember that fr:User:Poulpy has edited with a DS (but I'm not sure, ask to him). Cdlt, VIGNERON * ^discut. 10:33, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Which Encyclopedia Britannica editions are in the public domain and available for inclusion into Wikipedia?

As most of us already know, much of the public domain Encyclopedia Britannica 11the Edition (1910-1911) has already been incorporated into Wikipedia (as noted in this discussion topic). However, looking at this Britannica article's edition listing shows us that all others editions up its 14th, which was published from 1929–1933, are already over 77 years of age, and may also be in the public domain in the U.S. Are any copyright experts able to elaborate on this? If the 12th thru 14th editions are available for inclusion into Wikipedia, that could become the basis for another important WP project. Best: HarryZilber (talk) 17:20, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Just because it is public domain, is that any reason really go make it a project to just grab the content and put it Wikipedia? Far better, to me, to have a well-crafted article using reliable sources, rather than juts copying old, and possibly outdated, content. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 17:35, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Only pre-1923 works are clear cut, if that's what you mean. Claims of any subsequent editions being PD in the US would rely on the EB not complying with the necessary copyright procedure, which seems unlikely. And remember, we only used the old EB because it was better than nothing, now where at 3 million they have a lot less to contribute. - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 17:37, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I wanted to kind of throw my hat into the same ring as Collectonian here. I think that we're fairly far past the point where mass migrations of materiel are helpful to Wikipedia. There was a time when doing that was a boon, but with 3,000,000+ articles now, and 1,000+ and climbing "featured articles" (setting aside, for the moment, the argument regarding whether that actually reflects quality or not), we just don't have much need for PD text based stub/start class articles any longer.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 18:26, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Are pre-1923 EBs out-of-date and useless? Excuse me.... I think not, especially for classical subject matters. Those articles may still have outdated views and perspectives, but for the most part the EB articles were assembled and written by top-notch researchers. Considering that now, even if you're a SME, it takes a good 10–20 hours to put together a half decent new article properly documented with cites and images –that is on something with a bit of complexity to it, not just drafting a few lines of text out of some other compendium. Now take the method of grafting text from a pre-1923 Britannica: Cut and paste: 5 mins., plus review and edit for language, style and current views, perhaps half an hour to two hours, with perhaps a total average of an hour per piece. My guess is that for an hour's work we're able to upgrade Wikipedia with a new article that Britannica likely spent at least 10-15 hours assembling and editing, so there's obviously a great time savings advantage to using a quality product like Britannica when its available as PD.

The whole point to Wikipedia is to offer the world the sum of all [legitimate] knowledge. Let's not reinvent the wheel if we don't have to, which would be indicative of an outmoded not invented here style of thinking. For your consideration.... Best: HarryZilber (talk) 21:16, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree with that mentality, but do you have any specific examples? From a copyright POV, you're still looking at 11th and 12th editions, so you're a bit limited in scope. Most "timeless" topics will already have been integrated at a guess. - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 21:34, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Its also easier to just copy/paste an ED article into a Word doc, throw on your name, edit the language and bit and call it a term paper. It doesn't make it a good idea, and I see absolutely no reason why Wikipedia should build itself by basically stealing content from old issues of ED on the claim that "well its public domain now, so why not!" -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 21:57, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

But of coarse its much easier to cut-and-paste! That's the whole point! -but remember that Wikipedia forbids original research, while in college our profs want somewhat the opposite (depending on your level and assignment) in order to actually make you work at thinking. That doesn't make articles copied into Wikipedia any less valid, because accurate, verifiable knowledge is Wikipedia's end product, not the fashion it was produced in.

As for examples, here are two 12^th edition quick picks pulled at random out of Google; however I don't have any idea whether or not they're representative of that edition as I've never seen the three volumes involved:

• Finance And Banking In The Austrian Empire And The Republic Of Austria, 1919–1921 (title adjusted for content); and
• U.S. Dollar Stabilization, Up To 1921 (title adjusted for content).

I would guess that the latter article would fall into the 10-15 hour research time estimated earlier, while the former would probably easily exceed that. So again, why reinvent the wheel if you don't need to? Our 'salable' product to the lay public is accurate knowledge, not originality. Best: HarryZilber (talk) 23:01, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I had a look at the US dollar one. Now, while I am no expert, economics is an interest of mine. Essentially, it is an essay (I'm not even sure it ever included its own citations). Now, I thought as an experiment, I thought I'd have a go at getting it be the "history" section of a related article (ultimately the sort of thing EB could be useful for). And I just couldn't get a grasp on it at all. So much is temporal and speculative that even if I knew how many of the "facts" were still true - or, to put it better, represented present-day mainstream thought - I doubt I'd be able to find much that (dare I say it) I wouldn't have been better off writing myself to fit present-day references. I'd be interested to know if anyone could do better. - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 13:43, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Some Stats about Wikipedia BLPs

I read these at On Wikipedia and thought I'd share them with folks here as they're pretty interesitng.

80.7% of BLPs are of men (and thus 19.3% are of women). 48.5% of BLPs are about subjects from Canada, the United States, or the UK. (see Who's On Wikpedia: Part 2). Personally, I think this is shocking and Wikipedia needs to diversify its coverage a little more.

Furthermore, 36.7% of all BLPs are of athletes (and out these 39% are of soccer players). There are more BLPs of soccer players than of politicians, and more soccer BLPs than BLPs of all businessmen, lawyers, government officials, and scholars (see Who's on Wikipedia: Part 3). What can we do to address these issues and help Wikipedia diversify? HH Nobody (talk) 18:06, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

What this tells me is that we've far too many articles on soccer players, but that's nothing new... –xeno^talk 18:08, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

No, quite the reverse, we don't have enough BLPs of businessmen, lawyers, government officials, and scholars etc. And let's not forget that soccer is the most popular and most widely played sport in the world, so the statistics are not that surprising. – ukexpat (talk) 18:11, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, it's not necessarily a bad thing to have so many soccer biographies, but it's unfortunate that there aren't as many biographies of other sorts of people (politicians, businessmen, etc.). HH Nobody (talk) 18:16, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm with Ukexpat and HH Nobody here. Even if a bio article is a stub that simply says "this person is a graduate of <whatever school>, and did/worked for/wrote/sung/whatever" that's better then nothing. Not that Wikipedia should turn into the white pages, or "Who's who", but if someone is legitamately mentioned (or mentionable) in a non-biographical article here, then they should at least have a stub here as well. Those types of articles are especially helpful in answering "who the heck is that?" type of questions, particularly when it comes to things such as fringe theories. As a bit of an editorial aside to this issue though, I firmly believe that there is a genuine fear of BLP's among many editors. There is a certain (*ahem*) block of editors/commentators on or associated with Wikipedia who have, in my opinion, used Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt/propaganda tactics in order to create a chilling effect on Wikipedia. The damage this has caused to the encyclopedia is born out by the stats here and similar ones elsewhere. It's really unfortunate, but... what can you do, you know?
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 18:40, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

The information about a person does not need to be in a stand alone entry to be available to readers, so placing the content in a different article works just as well with out introducing the additional problems with up keep that come from having thousands of articles not on anyone's watchlist. FloNight♥♥♥♥ 19:23, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I think that this attitude is a mistake, from an organizational perspective. I understand where it comes from, and I appreciate the fact that it's offered as a compromise, but there are significant side effects to it which I think outweigh any added benefit. The largest issue is that the same people could easily be mentioned in several places, even if their notability is minor and limited to a certain subject area. Articles tend to grow, split, merge, etc..., and even if a person is only ever mentioned in a handful of articles it's still better to have their various personal details in one central location (even if it only makes up 10k or less). Something that may be more persuasive to those of you concerned with the harm aspects of BLP's is that integrating biographical information on minor people into a larger article makes identifying subtle inaccuracies and attacks much more difficult. There's nothing inherently wrong with a "stub" article, other then that it's nice for them to expand when they can legitimately do so.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 19:42, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

No, it is no more of a problem to see problematic content since changes to an article can be noted by looking at diffs one at a time. The chance of copyright violations, hoax content, and stale material being seen is greater if the material in placed in an article that people actually edit and have on their watchlist because they are interested in working on them. Once the article is not being edited by anyone then the chance that vandalism or poor quality content will not be noticed promptly by anyone is greater regardless of the size of the article. Since many of the BLP articles are abandoned by their creator if they were created from a list, then no one is looking at them. If you look at the article stats then you see that many of these are of little to no interest to anyone. So while their existence allows for stale, inaccurate information, or even defamation, there is little gain from having them on as stand alone entries. The burden of monitoring then has overwhelmed the community is the reason for their poor state. FloNight♥♥♥♥ 10:33, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Ah, I see what you mean. I guess, in the end, I'm just not convinced that the problem is any better or worse one way or the other. There are plenty of non-biographical articles which receive minimal attention as well, for one thing... we just have slightly different perspectives here, is all. Even assuming that some statistics or something would show that your view that keeping biographical elements in non-biographical articles is "more correct" (barring the possibility that there is some extreme difference, which I doubt based on anecdotal evidence), that still creates a significant organizational workload on all of us, in that we need constantly need to determine where that biographical information is located for links, verification and maintenance, and in order to watch over it. I think that the costs of the "fold it into subject articles" approach simply outweighs the benefits, in most cases (likely not all).
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 19:29, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

It is a misnomer to characterize these BLPs as articles or biographies. Way too many of the entries are short stubs without any sources that were made from a sports roster. Many of these BLPs are desperate need of sourcing and updating. FloNight♥♥♥♥ 18:45, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

But is that any worse than the hundreds of one or two-line article stubs about communities in France and elsewhere? My view is no, they are all legitimate stubs. – ukexpat (talk) 18:58, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Every BLP on Wikipedia is an opportunity to cause harm to the subject, either unwittingly or deliberately. The (potential) consequences of this are more (potentially) harmful to an individual than to a community in France. This is not an attempt to incite "fear, doubt, and uncertainty", it is simply a recognition that those BLPs ultimately represent a real, live person whose reputation, livelihood, family relations, self-image, etc may be affected by the existence and content of a biography on one of the most-accessed websites on the internet. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:41, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

See, this is where you guys loose me on this issue. I think that the gist of the BLP policy is important (vital, even), but this viewpoint takes that issue and radicalizes it into a political ideology which... well, it's lead up to the current state of affairs where even people like me, who support some sort of control when it comes to BLP's, and seen as "the enemy". You're not alone, but those of you who hold this radicalized viewpoint are definitely in an extremist group.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 18:48, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to suggest that you are the one using polarizing language here, not me and whoever "those guys" are. I don't think there is anything radical about recognizing that every BLP is the representation of a real live human being and that what is written here has the potential to have harmful and lasting effects in the real world. What is extreme about that? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:00, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

It is important to keep in mind that articles on Wikipedia should be about people in the public eye already. Articles about myself or yourself (assuming that neither one of us is a politician or anything like that), containing our resume for example, shouldn't be here on Wikiepdia, and for more reasons then the BLP concerns. An article about a person involved in legal issues, moderately high profile academics, etc... they should have some sort of entry here however. I understand and even agree with the point that "no information is better then inaccurate information", but where there is accurate information (albeit minimal), then we should have that.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 19:20, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure it makes a difference who the article is about, famous or not, and I don't think that is what we were discussing. I'm trying to establish what you think is radical about the statements I've made here. Do you agree with the simple statement that "every BLP is the representation of a real live human being and that what is written here has the potential to have harmful and lasting effects in the real world"? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:30, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

You're right, I sort of sidestepped/changed the topic. To answer the direct question: Yes... and no. The manner in which that statement itself is written is polemic, in that it seems designed to be inflammatory, and it conveys a certain invective. Your pointed question about my belief in the statement is a perfect example of the radicalization of this issue. The implication is that if I don't agree then there must be something wrong with me personally, and simply asking the question creates a sense of alarm along the lines of "here's someone to watch". To be blunt about it, working on anything related to BLP's scare the living shit out of me, including discussions such as this one. There's a poisoned atmosphere surrounding the whole issue, and I'm all but certain that I'm not the only one to sense it. This sort of situation is not conducive to either collegial collaboration, or finding a good solution to the actual issue(s).
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 23:34, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Ohm's law, thanks for your candour, but I am a loss to understand why you have taken the stance that you have. You labelled me and my comments as "extremist" and "radicalized" - I'm just trying to determine why you said this and what you mean by it. I'm not trying to trick you or vilify you, just understand you. It is a bit difficult to have a discussion if you are going to describe my statements as "polemic", "inflammatory", "invective", and "pointed", especially when there is absolutely no basis for that in what I have written. I don't know where you are getting your ideas from, but it isn't my words. Reasonable discussion and the ability to respectfully disagree is the basis for collegial collaboration and finding solutions, not the destroyer of it.

I think that "every BLP is the representation of a real live human being and that what is written here has the potential to have harmful and lasting effects in the real world" is an unbiased statement and very similar to what is contained in WP:BLP. It might be helpful if you could just say what you think is wrong with it instead of labelling it. I'm not trying to "trick" you here - I'm interested to know what you are thinking. If we can't discuss something this basic, let alone how or if we address this issue, there's something really wrong here. Feel free to respond on my talk page if you prefer. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:37, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate that. I should make it clear that I'm not trying to make personal statements about yourself, or anyone else in particular. There's a group effect that's occurring here, essentially a political movement, which unfortunately has extended it's reach far beyond the confines of Wikipedia itself. It's tough to really make statements on this topic because of everything surrounding the whole issue, which has been building up for quite some time now. See, I largely agree with what your view appears to be, but there's quite a bit of unwanted baggage that comes along with that view. This really shouldn't be such a problematic area, but there is a vocal minority to whom it seems are unwilling to be satisfied, and we collectively seem to have reached a polarized state where collegiality is near impossible due to those bad actors (in my view). I don't feel burnt, or slighted, or anything like that, it's just that when the "other side" refuses to even have a two sided discussion there's nowhere really left to go.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 19:50, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Maybe if we had an stricter notability criteria for areas like athletes (and other popular famous people), we would be wasting more time writing and maintaining articles about politicians, business people and non-anglo-saxon folks.

The mentality of WP:NOTPAPER is usually broken in that, from the fact that we're not limited by the availability of paper, it infers that we have infinite resources for writing articles, reviewing, fixing, tagging, categorizing, discussing... --Damiens.rf 18:53, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Not sure I follow that; it's not like the crappy articles block us from doing good work, is it?

The fact that other folks make a zillion articles about people/topics that you (or I) regard as piffle doesn't stop you (or I) from creating and maintaining articles that we think WP needs. Just ignore the crap and work on the worthwhile.

("Stricter notability criteria" translates into "lots more time arguing about deleting, instead of creating and improving articles", I think.) - DavidWBrooks (talk) 19:00, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Not really true in that the subjects of articles do raise a fuss if their articles are inaccurate or vandalized, so people need to watchlist them, and keep them free of problematic edits. FloNight♥♥♥♥ 19:07, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. My point was that it "stops" them from contributing or improving relevant material. For instance, instead of collecting and posting stats for every second-class Saudi-Arabia soccer player, an user could be improving the quality of the article on Saudi-Arabia national team. There's also those editors who really prefer to work on categorizing, tagging, sourcing, and generally cleaning up existing articles, an they work would have a greater net impact if they didn't have to waste their time with minor semi-relevant topics. --Damiens.rf 19:11, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes. I feel an ethical obligation to assist in keeping our content accurate and written from a neutral point of view. And to make sure that we hare not using copyrighted material. When Wikipedia creates more articles than we can maintain, then we let more and more poor content fall through the cracks. FloNight♥♥♥♥ 19:23, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

You know, it's always struck me as a particularly arrogant form of presumption to espouse viewpoints expressing an opinion which at least suggests that you know what's best for other editors to work on, think about, or pay attention to; and that it's OK to have an "I personally need to protect the site!" mentality. If it's not obvious, I support DavidWBrooks post above completely. The subject of vandalism is important, but we shouldn't allow that to overwhelm our contributions here. For one thing, it's important to realize that there are many others here with us, who are perfectly capable of seeing and correcting even subtle vandalism. It's also important to realize that quite often vandalism survives for long periods of time because it's simply unseen, and people should realize that if it hasn't been noticed for a long period of time then no real harm is possible (I'd like to point out the caveat that off-wiki notice, or lack thereof, is an important consideration as well with regards to this point). I'm not arguing that we should be insensitive towards the issue either, just that we shouldn't allow "the BLP problem" to (continue to) take over Wikipedia and create such a polarized polemic amongst us.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 19:34, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

It is my view that someone needs to speak up for the subject of articles that are not editors and who have their articles vandalized, or are in a poor state. I didn't start the thread, but think that it is important to frame the issue accurately. And I do find it worrying when vandalism, hoax articles, or attack articles are found by people outside of Wikipedia instead of by us because it means that our quality control is lacking. FloNight♥♥♥♥ 19:46, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

"if it hasn't been noticed for a long period of time then no real harm is possible" - That is the silliest thing that I've heard in a while. Why would the harm have to happen immediately? Often we don't notice until the harm happens and its pointed out (usually by the person harmed). By continuing to act as we are now, the BLP problem will still take over Wikipedia, in the form of the project being so overwhelmed with so many unmaintained, poor quality bios that we have to take more drastic action than we would even consider now. It doesn't cease to be a problem just because we stop talking about it. Mr.Z-man 01:55, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Those are the ones that you notice, and since you're sensitive to the issue those instances have an inordinate influence on your perceptions (this is basic armchair psychology which isn't at all unusual). People tend to make a big deal out of unnoticed instances as well, in that they actively attempt to raise the profile of instances which stood for long periods of time ("look at what I found!") ...which, incidentally, could easily create "harm" where none was going to happen. Things like this also create honey-pots for vandals. We've amped up bio articles so much over the years now, that even minor stub articles are valid vandalism targets because the vandals know that they'll receive the attention that their seeking. Part of the problem here is also technical, in that we don't really know what is being watched and what isn't. That's the main reason that I was recently suggesting that some sort of tracking should be instituted which could "turn off" the watchlists of inactive users. That way the tools which show unwatched pages would contain meaningful data. The point being, there are plenty of solutions to the concerns raised which fall far short of changing some of the fundamental aspects of en.wikipedia, and there seems to be plenty of interest in helping to mitigate the problems (myself included, incidentally). I can see how this was turned into such an issue early on, but we shouldn't let ourselves fall into (or continue to remain within) a dogmatic trap here.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 19:13, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Well we do have WP:ATHLETE which has some more detailed inclusion criteria. – ukexpat (talk) 18:58, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Stale, inaccurate articles are a too frequent result of the current guidelines in this area. FloNight♥♥♥♥ 19:03, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Sure. Every single professional athlete is notable!, which is not the case for Actors, Teachers, musicians, diplomats, outlaws or porsntars. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Damiens.rf (talk • contribs)

"we don't have enough BLPs of businessmen, lawyers, government officials, and scholars etc." - I would disagree with that statement. I would much rather have fewer BLPs on marginally notable athletes than more BLPs on marginally notable lawyers. Mr.Z-man 19:25, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

You might prefer that, but surely there is room for both? As far as I know server space is not a problem. – ukexpat (talk) 21:50, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps that wasn't especially clear. I'd rather have fewer BLPs for marginally notable people regardless of occupation. The issue is not server space, its maintainability. Most such articles are poorly watched, often poorly sourced, and a disaster waiting to happen. Mr.Z-man 01:55, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I entirely agree about the maintainability issue. If the need for maintenance increases faster than editors' appetites for doing it, the issue will get worse, so we need to think about ways to limit the maintenance burden. If a BLP article isn't adequately watchlisted, maybe it ought to be semi-protected automatically? - Pointillist (talk) 03:27, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I see - I had missed the point. Your concern is not that there are lots of crappy articles, as I had thought, but that there are lots of crappy articles about living people that might cause them to sue WP or get their country to pass laws limiting it, or get so upset they do something bad to themselves or others. I hadn't thought of that, but I'm also not sure what to do about it. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 16:32, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

It's not clear what "adequately watchlisted" means; an article could be watchlisted by a dozen people, all of whom are inactive, or by three people who are active, so simply counting editors isn't enough. In any case, assuming some sort of consensus criteria, one option would be have the software automatically put the page into Flagged Revision status, so that any change would need to be approved by an authorized reviewer. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 23:46, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

The principle is that if a WP page is not frequently viewed, adequate watch-listing is the main defense against inaccuracy; but I was trying to leave the definition of "adequate" open for discussion. IMO your "three people who are active" is a great starting point (I assume "people" excludes anonymous IP addresses). For non-BLP pages that are descended from Category:Lists of people, the minimum count of watchers should be higher (because it is relatively easier to insert vandalism into those articles without detection). - Pointillist (talk) 23:21, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Only 19.3% of Biographies of Living Persons are of women?

Here is an example of a Wikipedia article about a female subject which is in danger of being removed for lack of citations at Wikipedia: Ethel deNagy Gabriel (born November 16, 1921) is one of America's first female record producers in American music business... Ottawahitech (talk) 14:41, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

It has been flagged as unreferenced for nearly three years but no-one has proposed deletion, so it is probably not in immediate danger. But now you've spotted it, why not "be bold" and fit it? - Pointillist (talk) 15:13, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Category problem (& mystery)

Hello: I've added a category to IExpress. But when I go to it (Category:Installation software) there is no link to the stated article. But if I log in Wikipedia it appears. If I log out Wikipedia it disappears again. Strange, isn't it? Thanks, --Edupedro (talk) 21:40, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Try bypassing your cache. Svick (talk) 21:43, 15 January 2010 (UTC

And/or a a server purge.  – ukexpat (talk) 21:46, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I had tried bypassing the cache. The server purge has solved it. Thank you. --Edupedro (talk) 22:54, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Haiti

I started a wikicommunity help action at the Dutch wiki, and imagine that we can help on all wiki's as humans helping humans. We can support all victims in Haiti by placing a small 'banner' on our User and Talk pages. I used this one:

I'd like to express my support, my compassion and my humanity to the victims of the human catastrophe in Haiti.
Please, donate to your local Aid Agency or the RED CROSS

Code:
<div style="margin:1; background:#074074; font-family: sans-serif; font-size:100%; font-weight:bold; border:1px solid #cef2e0; text-align:center; color:#FFFFFF; padding-left:0.4em; padding-top: 0.2em; padding-bottom: 0.2em;"><Big>I'd like to express my support, my compassion and my humanity to the victims of the human catastrophe in Haiti.<br/>'''''Please, donate to your local Aid Agency or the RED CROSS'''''</BIG></div>

I think from the humanitarian perspective we now need to support all those there suffering from this horrible catastroph. Let's step a bit over the 'wiki-only' horizon, and let's do a bit of support where we can! I hope this initiative will get noticed and followed by all other users! (You also might use other places like Facebook, Myspace etc for this!)

Yours Sincerely, Tjako (talk) 22:25, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for donating this banner. Ottawahitech (talk) 17:19, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Bot Approvals Group

Hey Wikipedians, I am here to advertise my nomination to be on the Bot Approvals Group. Take a look if you have some time. Tim1357 (talk) 02:22, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Western sahara and Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic

Hello, i m sorry, i have some problems to speak english. I noticed that in Wikipédia people mixing between Western sahara (a territory) and the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic‎ (proclaimed by the Polisario) which is an entity. But in the encyclopedia, is used both as if they were the same. According to the UN, In 1990, the General Assembly reaffirmed that the question of Western Sahara was under the decolonization process that the people of Western Sahara had not yet completed. And SADR is an entity not recognized by the UN and only by a number of countries that vary from year to year. The encyclopedia do the flag of the SADR in articles concerning the Western Sahara, which isn't neutral position.--Kafka1 (d) 04:37, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

You just tell us where, and we'll get it sorted like a shot. - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 17:59, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

This flag must to be name File:Flag of SADR.svg or . Remove the flag in The Wikipedia:WikiProject Western Sahara and replaced a map of the territory and we can create a Wikipedia:WikiProject Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic and appose it the flag. In the Wikipedia:WikiProject Western Sahara, the title is WikiProject Western Sahara - A collaboration about the region Western Sahara, the government the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, and the native population of the Sahara, the Sahrawis. but in this region, there are two protagonists, Morocco, which controls and administers so (not recognized by the UN) and SADR,led by Polisario who is exiled to Tindouf in Algeria.

And we had the flag in western sahara until remove it by Reisio. I don't read all the articles about the subject in the english wiki. But i'll search and send you the articles or passages that pose a problem of neutrality.--Kafka1 (d) 22:05, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

POV warning: the territory of Western Sahara is currently the subject of a dispute, with both Morocco and SADR claiming sovereignty. The UN does not have a clear position, and so uses the neutral term Western Sahara. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 23:47, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, the UN use the term of western sahara as a territory and not recognize the SADR though many tries of Algeria or South africa. But the flag belongs to SADR not Western sahara.--Kafka1 (d) 00:18, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Yea, anyone jumping in here should be really careful to do some homework on the whole situation ahead of time. OrangeDog's "POV warning" is well heeded.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 23:51, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

NY Times content

The New York Magazine is reporting that the New York Times is going to cease providing free content and will install a "metered" payment system. Please see Wikipedia:Using WebCite for information on how to archive NY Times articles in Wikipedia before they disappear behind a paywall.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Blargh29 (talk • contribs) 23:37, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

WebCiteBOT operator notified. --Cybercobra (talk) 23:51, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Observation - quality enlargement of wikipedia in 2010 is much more polarised than the past

Lately I have been wondering that quality enlargement of wikipedia in 2010 is much more polarised than the past - namely that many many articles more or less stagnate unless there is a sudden concerted effort by one of a small percentage of editors - i.e more than ever we need dedicated content contributors (feel free to include this in any missive). I only base this on my impressions of the edits on my 6000-odd article watchlist. (might post at village pump about this...). Has anyone else felt this to be close to the mark or am I way off? Feel free to argue....Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:54, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't disagree, Cas. I've observed much the same on my watchlists. But I'm not sure how to cure it, or if indeed a cure is really needed. Firsfron of Ronchester 08:58, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, not sure either, but I was wondering whether others who edited found the same - admittedly we have a bunch of esoteric articles on our watchlist - but I also noted it in common/general articles too. Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:50, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I've seen some content stagnation too. I'd say the project, in its wide market success, is beginning to rub up against its own de facto standard, wherein a very widely known and used product is often not nearly the best it could be, but rather has settled into being taken for the time being by most users, wisely or not, as a fit enough mix of "easy to get" and "yielding much of what's needed." There is risk in both gliding along with this and in trying to break out of it. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:16, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Maybe they "more or less stagnate" because they're already pretty good and it's hard to improve them - in other words, maybe this is a good thing? Whereas a couple of years ago, there were still plenty of missing/stub/crap articles about reasonably important topics, so more of them kept improving? (Hey, my glass - it's half full!) - DavidWBrooks (talk) 14:23, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I'd say it is a "glass half full" kind of thing. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:30, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

It would be interesting to study this, if we could come up with a methodology.

One thing I've observed (but I don't have data to back it up) is that single-author articles, in low traffic areas, tend to remain almost unchanged for years, except for accretions of categories, interwikis, bot-added knick-knacks and so forth. If they are coherent and well-written to begin with. If they go unwatched, they may degrade over time; if watched, they remain stable. High-traffic articles are another thing entirely.

Speaking about my own core area, I rarely see large content edits to improve existing articles, although new articles appear from time to time (and some are very good). Most of the never-been-a-single-author crappy articles are just as crappy as they were four years ago. Ideally we could recruit a new batch of expert editors from somewhere, but they haven't been coming. Failing in that, and perpetually the optimist, maybe the way is to recruit interested people at Wikiprojects to identify those needy articles and have at them, one at a time. I've found that the most difficult articles to un-crappify are those that are riddled with citations -- you never know when you will collide with someone who will defend them: "hey! you removed cited information!" This sort of experience has made me personally more hesitant to rewrite existing crummy stuff, while filling in redlinks, however obscure, remains easy and fun. Antandrus (talk) 16:15, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Yep. You never known when someone's going to come along and kick down your sandcastle -- or whether that lump of sand you spotted turns out to be someone else's sandcastle.--Father Goose (talk) 19:11, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

It was always like this, but a year or two ago one could still just about beleve that sooner or later someone would come along & improve the text, whereas by now one has realized they probably won't except on a glacial timescale. There's nothing more depressing than doing a diff over a couple of years, and a couple of screens, worth of changes, and seeing that the actual crappy text has barely been touched, & there's just MOS, format, categories, interwikis & the other peripheral stuff. But this is now the case for the majority of articles. Johnbod (talk) 19:37, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

This is where I at least see FA and increasingly GA as a solution of sorts - they act as a stable revision point one can refer to in time after articles degrade, or prospectively something to aim for to get an article to that point. i.e. so one can facilitate reversing of article erosion. Fascinating watching high traffic FAs erode over time though....Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:38, 19 January 2010 (UTC)