Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/SmallCat dispute/Evidence

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Case clerk: TBD Drafting arbitrator: TBD

Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed decision. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator, clerk, or functionary, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Personal attacks against other users, including arbitrators or the clerks, will be met with sanctions. Behavior during a case may also be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.

Detailed explanation of scope

While the case is entitled "SmallCat dispute" because it was that dispute which spurred the case, the Arbitration Committee will be taking a comprehensive look at the conduct of the named parties including, but not limited to, small categories. For BrownHairedGirl (BHG), the Committee does not feel a need to re-examine or re-do work already completed by the 2020 Committee committee during the Portals case. As such, the Committee may consider the findings of fact from the Portals case in the decision of this case but any submitted evidence about BHG should be from after that case. Any evidence submitted about BHG which is from before that case may be summarily collapsed, removed, or otherwise addressed at the discretion of the arbitrators and clerks. While there is no prohibition for other named parties, the Committee reminds editors that the Committee may choose to disregard or give less weight to evidence that is not recent. Barkeep49 (talk) 12:40, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Does that mean any evidence submitted about other users dating from before the 2020 Arbcom Portals case (opened on 26 November 2019) shall also be inadmissible, or at least may be summarily collapsed, removed, or otherwise addressed at the discretion of the arbitrators and clerks as well? Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:53, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@Nederlandse Leeuw No. The last sentence discusses other parties. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:07, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Ok. Why should pre-26 November 2019 evidence about BHG be more easily disqualifiable than pre-26 November 2019 evidence about other users? If, hypothetically, BHG and User:Foo had a dispute about SMALLCAT on 01-01-2007 in which both parties were allegedly uncivil, may the evidence against BHG be summarily collapsed, removed etc. but the evidence against User:Foo may merely be disregard[ed] or give[n] less weight to by the Committee, but not be summarily collapsed, removed, or otherwise addressed at the discretion of the arbitrators and clerks? If so, why? Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:25, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Is that a hypothetical or do you have evidence? The reason for the prohibition is in the statement the Committee does not feel a need to re-examine or re-do work already completed by the 2020 Committee committee during the Portals case. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:35, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

I have evidence – unrelated to the Portals case – dating from before 26 November 2019, which involves both BHG and other editors discussing categorisation. I am unsure whether it is going to be relevant to this case. But if I run the risk that the evidence about BHG will be summarily collapsed, removed, etc. but the evidence about other editors will not be summarily collapsed, removed, etc. when I believe both parties (to a greater or lesser extent) to be at fault, I will not be submitting such evidence. I am concerned that parties will not be treated equally if the evidence could possibly be selectively altered by arbitrators or clerks with the effect of favouring or disfavouring one party or the other. I hope you understand my concern. Perhaps the prohibition is only related to Portals case material, and not all pre-26 November 2019 material? If so, then my concerns are probably allayed. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:08, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

I would suggest you email ArbCom the evidence and we can make a decision. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:37, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Hmmmm thanks for the offer, but that seems even less attractive as an option to me. I think the evidence should be publicly examinable to all parties involved and all users interested, so that everyone can come to their own conclusions. If I email the evidence privately (which will also share my email address with all members of the Arbcom, apparently), I have even less control over ensuring that it will not be selectively altered per the stated prohibition. Right now I don't feel like submitting such evidence either publicly or privately.

But it's not just about me. If other people want to submit pre-26 November 2019 material (unrelated to the Portals case), edits by BHG should be qualifiable in a way that edits by others will also be. I think Arbcom should not be giving the impression that BHG might get a Get out of Jail Free card for all her pre-26 November 2019 edits while others won't. I think, to ensure fairness and equality for all, either all pre-26 November 2019 edits (particularly relating to categorisation) should be inadmissible as evidence, or it should all be admissible, except material relating to the Portals case. (Prohibiting Portals-case-related material sounds reasonable to me, to save Arbcom time and energy on re-hashing old discussions, and would seem the reason why the prohibition was instated in the first place).

For the record, I believe that the evidence will be a net positive in favour of BHG, and bring more balance to the evidence I have so far submitted (which is currently critical of BHG alone, although I do not believe certain others to be entirely blameless either). But I do not want any pre-26 November 2019 evidence critical of BHG that I might submit to be selectively altered per this prohibition. I hope you understand my concern. Incidentally, I will probably have to request a word limit extension if I do decide to submit this additional evidence, but that's a matter for later. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:19, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@Nederlandse Leeuw I think I maybe miscommunicated, but in reading your reply that it ultimately wouldn't change your thinking. My suggestion to email the evidence was so arbs could make an informed decision about whether or not to grant you an exception. If granted the evidence would then be posted as per normal. ArbCom has already said that as of 2020 BrownHairedGirl has repeatedly engaged in personal attacks and assumptions of bad faith, including stating that editors are either liars or lying; labeling editors with opposing viewpoints to hers in portal matters as 'portalistas', which she defined as 'those editors who have engaged in misconduct to subvert the application of community consensus to portals'; and questioning the intelligence of those participating in portal edits and discussions with accusations of mendacity, 'Dunning–Kruger conduct', and being a 'low-skill group'. That is being accepted as fact as of 2020 in this case and so it is hardly a Get out of Jail Free card not extended to other parties. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:24, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Okay, at the risk of posting something I shouldn't... suppose I submitted this link and went on to analyse it and several categorisation-related pre-26 November 2019 events (unrelated to the Portals case) which I think might be relevant, what guarantee will I have that whatever anti-BHG evidence I submit will be left intact for all to see, and will not be selectively altered per the prohibition, just like whatever anti-User:Foo evidence I submit will be left intact for all to see? Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:20, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

PS: Never mind. I think DanCherek has already submitted enough evidence. I added my analysis at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/SmallCat dispute/Workshop#Analysis of evidence posted by User:DanCherek; that should suffice. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:10, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

• I think it's worth underlining that it is conduct that we will be focusing on. We are not here to assess the rights and wrongs of the SmallCat guideline, or decide who is right or wrong in their interpretation of that guideline. What we are assessing is the conduct of the named parties. Evidence showing that Party A and Party B behaved inappropriately during the SmallCat dispute is useful. As is evidence that Party A behaved the same way during disputes outside of the SmallCat dispute. As is evidence that Party B is normally a well behaved editor, and that behaviour during the SmallCat dispute was unusual. SilkTork (talk) 17:53, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

  Alright. Might it be helpful to also ask the question Are there examples of LL having productive disagreements with other editors? I've answered that question in relation to BHG already. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:10, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

  By the way, BHG told me on 16:13, 24 July 2023 (Diff) that My experience of you so far has all been of this SMALLCAT-related dispute. Apparently she has no memory of the productive disagreement she and I had on 12–13 June 2023 at CFD, which I posted on 15:38, 24 July 2023 at Arbcom's request. I posted it in favour of BHG, to show a better side of BHG which I have only briefly experienced once, but now, I might as well retract it. I could use the additional words that would free up for more evidence against BHG. She doesn't seem to be too concerned about giving me any benefit of the doubt... Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:52, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Word and diff limits

Because of the perceived pattern of behavior, I may be requesting to exceed the prescribed limits for evidence but will hold off on doing so until I've drafted my list and can make a concrete request with specific numbers. Other involved parties also perceive patterns of behavior, so I would favor similar leeway for them should they make formal requests before I do. - RevelationDirect (talk) 13:18, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

The Committee, particularly this Committee, has historically been quite willing to grant parties extensions for word and diff limits, especially if it's a singular request. Barkeep49 (talk) 13:20, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I've just submitted my evidence in stages, with addenda and corrections. I was happy to learn that as an involved party, I am entitled to 1000 words rather than 500 (I already struggled with that during the Preliminary Statements phase).

Just a question, I'm using https://www.countofwords.com/ to count my words as recommended, but should I count what can actually be read on display on the "Evidence" page (currently at 865), or the whole HTML text as found in the text editor, including all words in a URL not displayed on the page (currently at 1127)? Given the impossibility of getting diffs from the ANI page history, I'm ending up with a lot more HTML words than displayed words. And now I'm worried I've exceeded my word limit. Did I do it wrong? If so, how can I correct it?

Btw, isn't there a means to make it technically impossible for users to exceed their given word limit? We see that in online submission forms all the time, and Wikipedia edit summaries also have a character limit. But this ARC format seems to rely on the goodwill and self-policing of participants to observe the word limit. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:01, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

The rendered text. By my quick count you're at 807. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 14:15, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:47, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

I have just submitted evidence. I have no idea how it compares with the limits on words etc and would like to apply for an increase (if nec) as I expect to add more. The table could perhaps go on a subpage. Oculi (talk) 22:43, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Based on my estimation, you are at around 600 words and 53 diffs. As such, you still have more words and diffs that you can add before you hit the limit. As such, I would suggest seeing what else you want to submit and if it is a fair bit extra you could ask for an extension at that point. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 22:53, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@Dreamy Jazz I've been asked to submit evidence by Barkeep49. I've done so at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/SmallCat dispute/Evidence#Example of BHG having productive disagreements with other editors (question from Arbcom). In my count, I am now at 1063 words, but I'm not sure what your count is? If I have exceeded the limit, may I hereby request an extension? If not, I'll try to abridge the evidence (though I think it is quite valuable to be on display in its entirety). Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:42, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

By my count you are at 971. As such, this should be under or close enough to the limit for it to be allowed. Therefore, as long as you don't need to add more evidence you are fine. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 17:24, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Okay thanks. I do not intend, or believe I will need, to submit more evidence at this time. On the other hand, is there a limit to how many words I may add in the Workshop? I've already commented a lot. As I wrote, I still feel responsible for having, in my understanding, set off a chain of events that led us to the ANI because I was (one of) the first to raise civility issues (14:48, 15 June 2023). I felt like I had to bring the process, that I thought I had put in motion, to a good conclusion.But now I know I must be careful not to badger/bludgeon, despite my best intentions to do my part into bringing this process to a good conclusion. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:50, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

@Dreamy Jazz I added one more crucial piece of evidence that I missed previously. I think this is 971 + 28 words, so I've got 1 word to spare. Is this correct in your count? Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:57, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

As your section stands, it seems to be to be under the word count. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 08:51, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

@Barkeep49: Pulling that together took longer than I had hoped but I now have a draft on my sandbox. I'm requesting my word limit be doubled to 2,000. (I'm under 100 for Diffs). I'll of course abide by any limit that is set. - RevelationDirect (talk) 20:37, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

We're discussing. Barkeep49 (talk) 21:01, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. I would also favor BrownHairedGirl's limit being raised as well, obviously, since it would take more words to reply. - RevelationDirect (talk) 21:04, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

I would like an increased limit, too. I have added material a few moments ago and expect to add more as other editors contribute, with the deadline approaching. Oculi (talk) 14:57, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

@Oculi how many extra words are you asking for? Barkeep49 (talk) 14:59, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

What is my present count? I would hope another 50% would suffice. Oculi (talk) 15:03, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

My very rough count suggests 1200, so you'd be looking for 1800? Barkeep49 (talk) 15:18, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes; I would certainly hope 1800 would be enough. Oculi (talk) 15:28, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

@Oculi your request is approved. Barkeep49 (talk) 20:00, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Looks like BHG has still not submitted any evidence. Apart from submitting a preliminary statement and rejecting my apology in the workshop, she has been completely quiet during this case so far. Hasn't responded to LL's apology to her yet either. 3 days and a bit left to go. We'll see. I'm curious what she will say. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:23, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

BHG and the clerks/ArbCom have been in communication about her evidence. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:25, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

The Committee has been in correspondence with BHG regarding BHG's evidence submission, which I understand is currently being developed.
I will also note that there is an opportunity for parties and other participants to submit responses to evidence submissions in the form of analysis at the workshop.
Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 15:26, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

That is good to know. Additionally, is there any limit to how many words or how many times I may post at the Workshop? I'm trying not to flood the page. I have collapsed some of my sections because of this. I really don't want to be badgering or bludgeoning, I'm just trying to make valuable contributions. But I believe that all the things I post have added value to figuring out what happened, and where things might have gone wrong. My latest response about how automated Twinkle notifications may have played a role in the emergence of the dispute is something which I had so far overlooked, and nobody else seems to have addressed so far. I hope it will be taken into account, but I'm not sure if I'm posting more than I am allowed or supposed to. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:00, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

PS: isaacl gave me some helpful advice. I'll try to limit my contributions further. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:43, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

@RevelationDirect your request is approved. Barkeep49 (talk) 20:00, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! RevelationDirect (talk) 20:54, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

@Barkeep49:I have submitted more. How is the count now, and at what time do submissions close? Oculi (talk) 08:44, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

@Oculi You are at around 1400 words and evidence is set to close at 23:59:59 UTC. Though based on your comment below there is a chance drafters give some extension. Barkeep49 (talk) 13:21, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Suppressed Diffs in ANI

Much of the history in the ANI discussion was suppressed, at least from non-admins like me. My understanding was that this was due to an issue in an unrelated nomination. That makes it harder to link to Diffs in this case though. Is there any way we could use a scalpel instead of a cleaver and unsuppress the edits for the that earlier ANI? (I have no idea how granular the tools are for doing so.)

If not, instead of a Diff, I used the following citation format: "(Diff suppressed, ANI timestamp 09:31, 7 July 2023)". Is that acceptable? - RevelationDirect (talk) 13:28, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, if you can provide an annotated format like that, the Arbitrators can still cross-check the information is valid. Primefac (talk) 13:41, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

If you want to make our lives easier, Wikipedia:Convenient Discussions is a script that lets you link to specific comments in a way that other users will be able to use as well, even without the original diff. For example, Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/SmallCat dispute/Evidence#c-RevelationDirect-20230721132800-Suppressed_Diffs_in_ANI links to your comment on this page, and that link works even for those without the script. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 14:17, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you both for the procedural guidance! - RevelationDirect (talk) 15:28, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

@RevelationDirect unfortunately the way the oversight tool works it's not possible to "use a scalpel instead of a cleaver", we can only suppress (and unsuppress) whole revisions. This means that every revision that contains supressable material must be suppressed, e.g. if an editor adds a potentially libellous BLP violation in revision 10 and it isn't removed until revision 20 then all of revisions 10-19 need to be suppressed, even if none of the intermediate edits were at all problematic (or even related). Thryduulf (talk) 20:24, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

In hyper-theory land, someone who has both oversight and importupload privileges (a group that consists of only one person) could use importupload to reconstruct a synthetic history without the suppressed content. But that's a lot of work, and almost certainly is not going to be done. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 21:37, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

@DIYeditor: I've edited your evidence submission to include direct links to comments from ANI (Special:Diff/1168472061), for the convenience of arbitrators. If you have a problem with that, feel free to revert and let me know. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 23:43, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Link to section

Is a link to a cfd discussion such as this in the requisite format? — Oculi (talk) 14:07, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

@Oculi a link like that can be submitted as evidence. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:12, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Beyond My Ken section

In Laurel_Lodged's evidence section, under the heading "Threats" is:

"If that guideline-flouting is upheld, then a DRV is the appropriate venue to review that."[35]

I don't see how a suggestion that DRV can be used to resolve a dispute can be characterized as a "threat". Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:25, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Similarly under "Assumed revenge / paranoia":

"It follows a series if[sic] unpleasant and/or hostile encounters with you since I challenged your huge nominations in which you offered no evidence of having done any WP:BEFORE, and where you ignored my calls for it to be provided."[49]

where is the "assumed revenge" in that statement? It seems more like a statement of factual chronology, albeit characterized by BHG's personal impression of it.

And if "Paranoia" is meant to describe BHG, that's a clear personal attack and @Laurel Lodged: should strike it immediately. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:30, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Is there some place I should post these objections other than on this talk page? Is this appropriate material for the workshop? (I've never been quite sure what's supposed to go there.) Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:35, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken It seems like this is really Analysis? Barkeep49 (talk) 17:38, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@Barkeep49: Thanks, I will reformulate the material and post it there. What do you think about "Paranoia" being a PA? Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:23, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

I will discuss with the other drafters but traditionally named parties are extended more leeway than other editors because they have something at stake. So understanding that this diff is thought of by LL as Assumed revenge / paranoia informs me about LL in addition to BHG. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:31, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken I thought the same thing. I posted to their talk page, as mine had been commented on by an Arb for similar reasons. Seemed better than even including it here because maybe LL would remedy those concerns before it sets in... —DIYeditor (talk) 18:25, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I just saw your comment and added my suggestion that it be withdrawn. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:27, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

• It is WP:UNCIVIL but not a personal attack, imo, if we're talking semantics (similar to saying I think you're being paranoid in a non-friendly context) - but yes, the section should be relabelled to something more appropriate. --qedk (t 愛 c) 18:58, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
• Material posted at "Analysis". Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:51, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
• @Nederlandse Leeuw: No problem. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:11, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

  @Beyond My Ken Would you find it okay if I gave my analysis here of what LL appears to mean with "Assumed revenge / paranoia"? Because I wouldn't say it like that, and I believe LL has not provided as much context as he should have, so that it looks much like a personal attack. If he phrased it differently, and provided more context and evidence, I would probably agree with it. Because BHG has indeed said she felt "hounded" by a "tag team" which was allegedly engaged in "revenge-nominating". Although I have not really seen evidence of "tag-teaming" and "revenge-nominating", I have taken her expression that she felt hounded very seriously. It's one of the reasons why I suggested two-way IBANs for her vis-à-vis the three. BHG should be able to edit Wikipedia without being harassed by others (if that is indeed what was going on). Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:33, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

• Wouldn't it be better to put that analysis in the Analysis section as an additional response to the material I posted there? Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:54, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

  Hmmm yeah, I guess that's a better idea. Alright, I'm going for a walk to take a break, and perhaps I'll go and analyse it when I come back. Or I'll wait until tomorrow to look at it with fresh eyes. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:59, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

   Done. Meanwhile, LL has changed his statement from Assumed revenge / paranoia to Assumed revenge as motive for SmallCat differences. I welcome this clarification, which is helpful for moving the process forward. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:35, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Nederlandse Leeuw section

@Beyond My Ken: I'm sorry, you're right. This is my first ARC, I'm not used to this format in which we are supposed to only comment in our own sections. I'm glad Barkeep49 moved my comment to analysis. I'm happy that these rules even exist, to keep involved parties and different types of comments separate. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:09, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Should DIYeditor's 18:25, 23 July 2023 comment then also be moved to their own section? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:10, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

There is no expectation that editors only post to their own section on the evidence talk page (where we are now). I think @Beyond My Ken might be getting this confused with the Proposed Decision talk page where everyone does get their own section. Barkeep49 (talk) 20:11, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Oh ok. Well, I still think moving my comment to analysis was a good move of yours, thanks. ;) Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:13, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

My apologies to all, I could swear that rule applied to all talk pages here. Live and learn! Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:20, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Haha it's alright! I'm also still learning how all of this here works. At any rate, I hope my analysis was helpful for understanding what RD, LL and I meant by "intimidating/threatening" the closer. LL provided no context, so misunderstanding what he meant was, well, understandable. Haha. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:23, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@Barkeep49: I would like to make an apology to one of the involved parties for something I said. Where should I post that? Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:19, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

In Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/SmallCat dispute/Workshop#General discussion under "Comment by parties"? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:36, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@Barkeep49 I posted it at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/SmallCat dispute/Workshop#Apology from Nederlandse Leeuw to BrownHairedGirl. If this is the incorrect place to do so, please tell me where to put it instead. Thanks! Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:25, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

That's probably fine. If it needs to be moved myself or another drafter will let you know. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:34, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

@Barkeep49 Thanks! I really hope this helps de-escalating the tensions and moving this process forward. It is easy to point out what others do wrong. It is harder to recognise your own faults and admit them, but I felt that I had to do so, and this seemed to be the best way and place. I hope she appreciates it. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:38, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Apparently not... . I'm afraid I've done all I can for now in direct communication with BHG during this ARC. At least I tried. It genuinely makes me sad. But I do not regret raising the WP:CIVIL issue. I believe it was the right thing to do. And I still do. We need to see this case through to a proper end. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:23, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

I've added an Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/SmallCat dispute/Workshop#Analysis of apologies. It's a little long, but I think it serves to provide important insights in understanding the role which apologies play in the various interactions between Wikipedians. At first I really didn't understand why BHG rejected my sincere and carefully worded apology. I thought about it for several days. Now, I think I do. The pattern fits when compared to her rejection of RD's apology and the role she thinks apologies play in general, which seems to differ sharply from how pretty much everyone else here thinks about apologies.

Combined with the importance BHG gives to the public acknowledgement of her own personal interpretation of policies and guidelines being correct (mostly those relevant to categorisation and deletion, such as WP:SMALLCAT and WP:BEFORE) over the importance of being WP:CIVIL (which seems to have little or no importance to BHG, based on what she writes about it herself), I think I've now pieced together a bigger picture that may help us understand what has been going on. If I made a mistake or missed anything important, I stand to be corrected, and I am open for constructive feedback. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:15, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

@Barkeep49: Where would you like me to answer your questions at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/SmallCat dispute/Workshop#Questions/Commenst from Arbitrations? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:07, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

By submitting evidence. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:09, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/SmallCat dispute/Evidence#Example of BHG having productive disagreements with other editors (question from Arbcom). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:48, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

[Never mind; I should stop posting my thoughts if they aren't relevant to the process. Sorry.] Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:15, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't know where else to post this, but I'll just keep to my own section. User talk:BrownHairedGirl#Withdrawal from the SmallCat case (Diff) initially struck me as yet another strange move, but given the Evidence presented by Trainsandotherthings, I think this another case of BHG WP:FORUMSHOPPING. When the Expatriates CfM discussion didn't seem to go her way, she seemed to threaten a DRV. When the ANI didn't seem to go her way, she seemed to insist on an RfC. Now that the ARC isn't going her apparent way, she seems to be questioning the very authority and competence of the Arbcom by invoking the UCOC. It seems like she's always looking for yet another forum to try, until she can get enough people to agree with her point of view... Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:15, 2 August 2023 (UTC) Speaking only for myself, I think this is a relatively ungenerous interpretation of those events. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:17, 2 August 2023 (UTC) (e/c) "I don't know where else to post this," I suppose you could just not post it anywhere, since it comes of as smug and annoying.--Floquenbeam (talk) 17:20, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

@Jc37: Your text Fayenatic posted this note to BHG: [1] has the same diff as the previous I saw that and posted here: [2]; I presume the former URL to be a copy error? Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 06:16, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, I think I fixed it.

I wasn't planning on pasting them here, but re-reading the last line of this: "Your replies (or lack thereof) may form part of my evidence.", convinced me that I probably should. - jc37 07:05, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Comments from DanCherek

@SilkTork: (this is a reply to your query here, I wasn't exactly sure where I was supposed to respond) Thanks for asking. No, it was not my intention to suggest that BrownHairedGirl's actions were malevolent. Instead, the idea was that if BrownHairedGirl was accusing other editors of gaslighting in accordance with Wiktionary's definition, then she would have been alleging that those other editors were acting with malevolence. All that being said, that part was not particularly important to my evidence – it was initially intended for anyone unfamiliar with the term – so I have gone ahead and struck the definition and replaced it with a simple wikilink to Wiktionary (diff), which should suffice. Thanks also for your invitation to submit analysis of the evidence. I will try do to so when I get a chance. DanCherek (talk) 18:32, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks DanCherek. Agree, these pages are not helpfully set out. I don't fully understand them myself. And I did mean to say "Are you suggesting that BHG was accusing others of being malevolent?", but it came out wrong. I'll amend that now. SilkTork (talk) 10:03, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Robert McClenon's Section

Answering User:SilkTork – Yes, I am recommending that ArbCom define deletion discussions as a contentious topic, so that the administrators at Arbitration Enforcement can impose sanctions on editors who engage in battleground editing in deletion discussions. The community has at least twice punted dealing with editors who disrupt deletion discussion to ArbCom, so ArbCom needs to run with the football. The community has shown that it either cannot or will not or does not want to deal with editors who make deletion discussions troublesome, so ArbCom should authorize administrators to impose sanctions. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:11, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I am of weak opposition to this, I agree with the last statement but I'm not fully confident that making them a sanction area is the right way to resolve this i.e. "inherently contentious" != "sanction eligibility". Editors should be free to opine without running the risk of what construes as battleground behaviour, for e.g. at what point do we decide that an article creator is not allowed to defend their creation? Seems like a slippery slope to me, that said, per my agreement to the last statement, the community has historically been unable to deal with uncivil editors in deletion discussions, it's just that it personally doesn't sit right with me to make XfDs a sanction area. --qedk (t 愛 c) 11:43, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

If I may add to what qedk said: disputes at CFD are rare, we can have entire weeks without any serious disputes about anything. But they do happen. Even when they do, most editors are able to deal with their frustrations civilly, and will accept it if their side "loses" the argument. I've been in that position countless times since February 2023 (when I first became really active at CFD), and at most I will post a 500-word essay about why I think I'm right and everyone else is wrong (honestly, I do need to train being more concise ), but I won't use a single swearword or a single name-calling or insult. I'll accept the closure. For the very few editors who are unable to constrain themselves, however, sanctioning does seem to be rare, and I believe the civility guideline needs to be enforced more tightly than it currently is. (Categorisation guideline reform might help, too, but that's a topic for after this ARC is over). Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:20, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm just putting out there that I find Robert's evidence out of scope. Unlike in the deletion discussions case we have not indicated we want to take a broader look at CfD, let alone all XfD. Obviously SilkTork is more open to this kind of evidence so I'm discussing behind the scenes with him and Primefac but I want to put this out there now so that others don't put forward such evidence until the drafters make a decision about this (and perhaps revise the scope accordingly). Barkeep49 (talk) 15:08, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I find the observation interesting, though - as I indicated above - I feel that evidence is best confined to conduct of the parties rather than discussion around aspects of SmallCat. I feel that further discussion of Robert McClenon's suggestion would be worthwhile, but not on these case pages. Robert McClenon, would you consider collapsing your observation, and opening a discussion on the matter elsewhere? SilkTork (talk) 15:43, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I am disappointed by this action, although unfortunately not surprised. ArbCom is continuing to kick the can down the road. There will be another case in a year or two involving either tendentious editing or personal attacks in deletion. This case illustrates the problem well, in that the same editor is attacking other editors in CFD, just as she did in MFD four years ago. She is correct on the merits, because the problem here is that the other editors have only read a few words of the small category guideline and think that they understand it, and the portal advocates had only read a few words of the portal guideline and thought that they understood it. But being right on the merits does not justify incivility, and this illustrates the contentiousness of deletion discussions. I understand that ArbCom has chosen only to address the immediate problem, incivility in small category discussions, and not the underlying problem, the contentiousness of deletion discussions. I am in the minority. There will be another case later. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:15, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Robert: as one of the drafters of the deletion decision, we were very willing to go large. I think if you'd wanted to bring in CfD evidence there we'd have seriously considered it even if it was technically out of scope. We very much did not want to kick the can down the road. And truthfully, the remedies which we passed there - the farthest ranging of which was an RfC process that failed - felt like the most that the evidence we had could justify. In fact it wasn't clear to some arbs that the evidence could have been justified. So if the can got kicked down the road there - and an argument can be made it was - I would suggest the cause isn't only on ArbCom. Barkeep49 (talk) 22:26, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

As a minor contribution: Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 26#European people by country. TL;DR someone accidentally emptied a category out of process and it took myself and another Wikipedian a lot of time to find out who it was, and we both initially blamed the wrong person. Smallcat and emptying out of process are not the same but related issues that are amongst the most frequent sources of disputes at CFD. Future policy/guideline reform should look into this. For my part, I wrote an essay about it a few days ago: User:Nederlandse Leeuw/Emptying categories out of process (ECOOP). Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:04, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Procedural Question

Are comments on this page supposed to be sectioned with a section for each non-arbitrator, and replies from the arbitrators, or other editors allowed to discuss back-and-forth? I thought that discussion was sectioned, but see that another editor is posting in my section as well as their own. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:20, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

BMK had this also confusion so you're not the only veteran editor with that question but this page is not sectioned. Barkeep49 (talk) 22:23, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Confusion is understandable. Might be helpful to state this explicitly in "Behaviour on this page" in future cases?

@Robert McClenon I was hoping to constructively contribute to the points you made about potential future CFD reform. Nevertheless, if my comments here bother you in some way, I'm prepared to move them to "my section", no worries. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:37, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Note for the record:

User talk:BrownHairedGirl#Withdrawal from the SmallCat case * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 14:01, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

I find this a disappointing outcome, and very unreasonable on BHG's part. She wrote to us to request an unprecedented 20,000 words in evidence. The standard amount is 1,000. I'm not sure that we've ever granted more than 2,500. But after much hemming and hawing, and BHG's repeated insistence, we granted her 5,000, with an explanation that less is more, and thus she should try to keep it smaller. But she still balks, and alleges that we're not allowing her to make her case. But why should BHG get to break the rules to such an absurd extent? If we grant her 20k words, why not grant that to every named participant? At that point, why even have a word limit? For those who think that 20k words is not a lot, or who are thinking "wow, how Kafkaesque", I remind you that Kafka's Metamorphosis, a novella, clocks in at about 21,000 words. Nothing in BHG's evidence (which yes, she did email the full length version of to us) convinces me that she needs a novella's worth of writing to achieve.

BHG then goes on to invoke the UCOC and alleges that we are giving the case a prejudicial framing by not deciding the meaning of SMALLCAT. That fundamentally misunderstands ArbCom's role. While the WSJ once called us Wikipedia's Supreme Court, our job is conduct, not content. We are not the final divine interpreters of policy. The most I could I see us doing with SMALLCAT is ordering an RfC, so that the Community can decide what it really means. Wikipedia's policy is decided bottom up, not top down. Further, I reject the attempt to use vague phrases in the UCOC to achieve wildly unrelated outcomes, and disagree that we're somehow breaking the UCOC by sticking to our conduct mandate.

Ultimately, we have tried to be more than accommodating to BHG, but she will not budge. Perhaps saddest of all, BHG has failed to understand that a thousand well written words can achieve more than a million. The point of ArbCom's word limits is not to make the lives of the Arbs easier. It is to force participants to be intentional and focus on the true nexus of the problem. Instead, BHG takes a scattershot approach and hopes something sticks. That is exactly the opposite of what Arbitration is supposed to achieve. I hope BHG decides to submit some evidence and participate, but just as we have compromised, she must as well—compromise is a two way street. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 15:52, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

I have to take strong exception to something you've written @CaptainEek. ArbCom has no role to play in deciding content. ArbCom cannot create policy. However, we are able to create binding and final interpretations of policy. WP:ARBPOL says The Committee's decisions may interpret existing policy and guidelines, recognise and call attention to standards of user conduct, or create procedures through which policy and guidelines may be enforced and so I think we can act as a final binding decision-maker primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve (to quote another part of ARBPOL). We can chose to delegate this authority, or say it is better done by the community, but we absolutely are the final (though not divine) interpreters of policy when misconduct has reached the point that it justifies a case. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:57, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

That's a good point Barkeep, and well taken. But I still must admit I'm hesitant for us to say "this is what SMALLCAT means, and the community will follow our pronouncement," which is I think what BHG is expecting us to do. Maybe we will, and I agree that we have that right. But just because we can doesn't mean we should. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 16:06, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

I too have no idea whether we will choose to interpret SMALLCAT. But, per my comments on the Workshop yesterday, I don't think we should be ruling it out at this point. Because if one of the parties in this case is going around getting that guideline wrong consistently it would absolutely be disruptive enough in my view that the party would need some kind of remedy; perhaps only a reminder/warning/admonishment or perhaps something stronger like a TBAN. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:11, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

My position broadly aligns with Barkeep's, but may go even a bit further: every time we resolve a conduct dispute, we are implicitly rendering an interpretation of relevant policy and norms, and we don't shy away from that (which I think is evident from the way we have resolved cases in the past). Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 16:16, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

I broadly agree with that but would point to the use of principles where we more explicitly and generally layout policy/guideline interpretations before applying that to specific editors/situations. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:24, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

As a follow-up to the value of short statements: imo, Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address is one of the best speeches ever given, and is a mere 701 words. Or his Gettysburg address, at a mere 271 words. Less is more. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 16:16, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

So what happens now? Can an involved party just 'withdraw' from a case? Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:59, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

No. I hope BHG reconsiders this choice as I think we will make a better decision with her participation than without it. But either way the case goes ahead. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:02, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, that's good to know. Is it somehow "out of order" or "out of process" to be still submitting her "draft evidence" exceeding the offered word limit in her userspace at User:BrownHairedGirl/Draft evidence in SmallCat case? It seems to be circumventing the rules we must all abide by, outlined at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/SmallCat dispute/Evidence, in particular: You must submit evidence in your own section, using the prescribed format. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:22, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

What she has posted in her userspace is not going to be considered as part of this process and so the rules of the process don't apply. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:25, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Okay. Considering it contains a lot of accusations and allegations against several parties involved, myself included, is the page still sanctionable for possible violations such as WP:ASPERSIONS? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:29, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

At the moment that page is permitted by WP:POLEMIC. I suppose you could pull quotes from it and submit it against BHG but I would personally not be all that inclined to grant you an extension merely to post evidence from that page. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:37, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Ah ok, thanks for pointing that out. I presume permitted provided it will be used in a timely manner expires after the conclusion of this case? That seems reasonable. Oh no, I'm not thinking about submitting additional evidence from BHG's draft page, don't worry. If the page gets deleted after the case I'm fine. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:00, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

It's likely moot now, but I would not have objected to the requested 20,000 word limit. I agree that, at some point, the length becomes self defeating so shorter is better for involved parties. But it also takes more words to defend yourself than it takes to make the initial claim. (In any case, I hope BrownHairedGirl reconsiders.) - RevelationDirect (talk) 02:57, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

It's been quite awhile ago (and I don't recall the specifics), but this isn't the first time someone provided evidence as a sub-page, somewhere.

If an editor did that, and could divide it to clearly delineate the content issues from the coduct issues, while still providing context, it probably would not be much of an issue. I trust that arbitrators know how to look at a page of links and decide what they think is relevant. Sometimes, in a large case, with several participants, or when there is a long period of time to cover, it may be necessiitated.

I think this issue here is, well, the over-arching issue here. That BHG seems to be conflating in the content issue with conduct. Hitting submit or publish doesn't necessarily make something a conduct issue. She seems to see this as: if she can be proven "right" in the content part of this, then the conduct will be considered justified. So from that perspective, the content argument would seem important to the person to try to explain. That the "heat" level continued to rise among the various parties has made this less clear, I think (and I wasn't following this as it happened - with some exceptions, I tend to avoid cfd threads on certain topics if I see her name).

So I dunno. In a way, I think that sub-page could be seen as evidence in and of itself of one of the issues at hand. - jc37 07:54, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

this isn't the first time someone provided evidence as a sub-page, somewhere. That may be, but as I pointed out: You must submit evidence in your own section, using the prescribed format. And while WP:POLEMIC does allow The compilation of factual evidence (diffs) in user subpages, for purposes such as preparing for a dispute resolution process (...) provided it will be used in a timely manner, Barkeep49 has already said that What she has posted in her userspace is not going to be considered as part of this process. Therefore, arbitrators [looking] at a page of links and decide what they think is relevant will not be happening in this ARC in relation to that draft in her userspace. So I think we should emphase the "preparing for" bit; it's a draft / note to self for BHG personally, which is fine for the duration of the ARC.

Otherwise I agree that BHG is conflating content and conduct, but I've made that point sufficiently already. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:38, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Extension request

@Barkeep49: I have finished drafting my evidence. I'll need an extension of at least 300 additional words. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 18:14, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

300 word extension granted. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:34, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

DIYeditor extension

Barkeep49 I am not sure how word count is tallied (like if it includes signatures, link numbers, and such) but I think to include the evidence of LL's apology on the Workshop page (if that is subject to being included at all or if the committee will already consider that) I would need approx. 550 words total with a more liberal count of the words as I see it. I would like to add: LL "apology" indicates the goading will not stop: LL issued a backhanded "apology"[link] indicating BHG's character flaws that lead to LL being unable to stop provoking her. LL frames this as a "Christian" apology, apparently a core element of which being listing the sins of the person one is "apologizing" to. —DIYeditor (talk) 13:40, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

@DIYeditor Personally I count headers but not signatures and so I have you around 350 words so no extension is needed to add those 2 sentences. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:33, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Correct location for responding to draft evidence

I wrote a short reply to BrownHairedGirl's draft evidence that she shared informally. Content wise my comments would fit perfectly in the Analysis of Evidence section of the Workshop page. But, I'm replying to something that is not formal evidence and I would still have the word count left to place it under my Evidence section instead. I'm still mulling over whether it's helpful though.

But, if I decided to share it, where is the correct location? (Or would this be improper?) - RevelationDirect (talk) 17:28, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't feel strongly about this so if one of hte other drafters disagrees with me, what they say goes. But I would say there is no correct spot to respond to draft evidence. Draft evidence is not evidence and is thus not part of this case. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:32, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Not a drafter, but I fully agree that there should be no engagement with the draft evidence. If parties could skirt length rules simply by putting evidence in their userspace, that would make a mockery of the Arb process. I will not be considering the draft evidence. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 18:17, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

I guess I was concerned that the draft evidence would be informally considered. Since that's not the case, I'll discard my draft response. Thanks for the guidance! - RevelationDirect (talk) 19:08, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

I had similar concerns so I understand that you ask this question, RD. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:40, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

@Marcocapelle: I see that you have created your own evidence section a short time ago. It appears that you have simply copypasted BHG's draft evidence, with some "pick[ing] and choos[ing] what I think is most relevant in her defense" and some "editorial comment". I'm not sure why you did this, rather that posting your own evidence. Arbitrators have already said that What she has posted in her userspace is not going to be considered as part of this process, and there should be no engagement with the draft evidence. It also appears to far exceed the word limit of 1,000 words (which can only be extended if requested and granted by the Arbcom). So I'm not sure what you are doing, and if you know it yourself? Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:55, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

@Barkeep49 and Dreamy Jazz: I take no position on Marcocapelle placing an extract of BrownHairedGirl draft evidence under their own section, I'm obviously way too involved and defer to ArbComm. (I've consistently supported increasing word counts for other editors though and do so now with Marcocapelle though.) But given this development, I reiterate my earlier question: is it now appropriate for me to provide some short analysis on Workshop page? - RevelationDirect (talk) 11:36, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

@Barkeep49: first of all, see comment of Nederlandse Leeuw above, is what I have done allowed at all? And if the answer is yes, may I request an extension of number of words? In my opinion (and people may have a different opinion about it, of course) continuing this case without BHG being heard is quite useless. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:49, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

@Marcocapelle BHG is allowed to be heard, but should comply to the same rules as all other parties involved. She must submit evidence in [her] own section, using the prescribed format. If she chooses not to do that before the Evidence phase closes, that is too bad. Posting draft evidence in her userspace is allowed only for the purpose of "preparing for" a dispute resolution per WP:POLEMIC; it cannot be used or cited in the dispute resolution itself. (She has already attempted the break these rules by referring to it in the Workshop under your motion.) I understand that you want her to be heard, but you do not have to submit evidence on her behalf if she refuses to comply with the rules herself in order to do so, specifically the word limit. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:05, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

PS: If BHG doesn't submit evidence in the Evidence section before the time limit expires, that's essentially exercising her right to remain silent. She cannot "withdraw", as she claims; arbitrator Barkeep49 clarified that she can't: No. I hope BHG reconsiders this choice as I think we will make a better decision with her participation than without it. But either way the case goes ahead. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:02, 2 August 2023 (UTC). So she could potentially be sanctioned "in absentia", as it were (though that concept may be difficult to apply online). Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:26, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

@Marcocapelle I saw your evidence before looking at my pings. As such, because I knew no extension had been granted, I cut down the evidence submission to just about 1000 words. In doing that, I thought that choosing to paste parts of BHG's evidence was a bold move but not one against the rules. So there's that. Is your request for extension merely to include the parts which I have, for the moment, removed? If so I expect that extension would be granted. If you're hoping for a longer extension please say exactly how many words (and if necessary how many diffs) you are requesting and provide some justification/explanation for that request. Barkeep49 (talk) 13:11, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

@Barkeep49: Would BrownHairedGirl and other editors also be allowed to add additional excerpts from the draft evidence, up to their allotted word counts? - 13:41, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

I echo these sentiments. It is also far too late for me to respond as I am off on holiday tomorrow and am certainly not going to waste any time logging into wikipedia. I didn't see the bit which says: feel free to copy and paste whatever you like into evidence. Oculi (talk) 11:43, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Regardless of how Marcocapelle's effort to give BrownHairedGirl a voice in the Evidence page is handled, she has already posted the link to User:BrownHairedGirl/Draft evidence in SmallCat case 3 times on the Workshop page and another editor posted it a 4th time to question some of that evidence. I assume both editors were unaware of this discussion so it may be worthwhile for ArbComm to consider providing guidance on the Workshop page. - RevelationDirect (talk) 13:13, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

I was obviously not unaware. People can link to whatever they want. That doesn't make it suddenly part of evidence that is considered. Barkeep49 (talk) 13:45, 4 August 2023 (UTC)