Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football

Denoting NCAA and NAIA national championships in infoboxes

Cbl62 and I have been discussing how to denote NCAA and NAIA national championships in infoboxes for team season articles such as 2019 North Dakota State Bison football team, 2017 Mount Union Purple Raiders football team, 2019 West Florida Argonauts football team, and 1969 Texas A&I Javelinas football team. Should we write "NAIA national champion" or "NAIA champion" and "NCAA Division II national champion" or "NCAA Division II champion"? It's worth considering the proper names of these championships:

• NAIA Football National Championship and NAIA Division II Football National Championship
• NCAA Division I Football Championship, formerly NCAA Division I-AA Football Championship
• NCAA Division II Football Championship
• NCAA Division III Football Championship

Note that the NAIA championships explicitly contain the word "National" whereas the NCAA championships do not, while both acronyms (NAIA and NCAA) implicitly contain "National". When we assemble a phrase like "NAIA national champion" or "NCAA Division II national champion", which are not proper nouns, is the "national" redundant? Jweiss11 (talk) 20:37, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

The issue arose in connection with inclusion of an "NAIA national champion" banner in the infobox for season articles I've been building (37 so far!) for teams that won the NAIA Football National Championship. Jweiss11 seeks to remove "national" so that the banner would simply read "NAIA champion". I believe the infobox banner denoting "NAIA national champion" is more appropriate and accurate for multiple reasons:

First, the NAIA has since 1956 called its football playoffs the NAIA Football National Championship. The winner of those playoffs is by definition the "NAIA national champion".

Second, per the principles underlying WP:COMMONNAME, "NAIA national champion" properly reflects the manner in which the winner of the playoffs have been referenced in contemporary press accounts. E.g., [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16]. (These are just a few examples from about 80,000 hits using the term "national champion" to describe the winner of the NAIA football playoffs.)

Third, the "NAIA national champion" notation accurately reflects the reality of the situation. The NAIA playoffs select teams from different regions. There was historically a Western semifinal and an Eastern semifinal. Those two regional champions then met to determine a "national" champion of NAIA football. Omission of "national" would only serve to create ambiguity.

Fourth, the "national champion" notation is supported by consistency across our Wikipedia articles and categories on the topic. E.g., NAIA Football National Championship and Category:NAIA Football National Champions.

These points IMO pretty clearly demonstrate that the "NAIA national champion" is accurate and proper as applied to teams winning the NAIA Football National Championship. Cbl62 (talk) 20:52, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Cbl62 You wrote "NCAA" a couple times above. Did you mean "NAIA" in those instances? Jweiss11 (talk) 21:48, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. I fixed it. Cbl62 (talk) 21:50, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Great topic to bring up. While personally I prefer just NCAA Division III champion or NAIA champion, I think it would be best to include national champion just like we would on FBS' consenus national champion. Not only does it standardize it among all national championships. But Wikipedia is for a general populous base, not just those who have an interest or understanding of college football. When keeping this idea in mind I think it would be best to include national.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 03:19, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

Furthermore there are some people that casually watch college football that might not recognize that NAIA is not a conference but a national governing body. I am not being disingenuous.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 03:23, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

I hadn't even considered UCO's point of view but I think it's a good one - if we want to make things as easy to comprehend for non-CFB fans as possible, then including "national" (even if it's a bit redundant) would be a good think, especially since there are some conference names that also end with "Athletic Association" and the like (CIAA, MIAA in Division II, MIAA in Division III, SAA). To some readers not as familiar with the conference/national champion system, "NCAA" and "NAIA" may not stand out as being different than "MIAA", for example. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 07:13, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Little All-America college football teams

I began yesterday building articles on the "Little All-America college football teams" issued each year by the Associated Press recognizing the best small college players. The Little All-America teams have provided early recognition to many of the greats, including Walter Payton, Terry Bradshaw, Shannon Sharpe, Bulldog Turner, Joe Stydahar, and Willie Lanier, among others. Anyone interested in helping with the effort is welcome to do so. Potential tasks include (i) linking to existing bio articles of players receiving the honor, (ii) creating bio articles on Little All-Americans (e.g., Nate Clark) who have received enough WP:SIGCOV to pass WP:GNG, and (ii) creating articles for red-linked years shown in the template below:

Cbl62 (talk) 18:52, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

If accurate, this can help.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 01:27, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

I've been using it as a reference. It's generally accurate, though sometimes the names aren't accurately recorded. Also unclear if it's a reliable source, so we need to support any articles with the contemporaneous AP reports, which are not hard to find (they came out in the first half of December each year). Cbl62 (talk) 02:04, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Coaching years

We have a new trend that may become more common of new head coaches getting hired during the current season, but not becoming the coach of record until the following season. Jim L. Mora, Clay Helton, and Joey McGuire are all examples from this year. My sense is that the infobox should list 2022 as the actual start year, because we generally use the season year and not the calendar year. Right now, Helton says 2022, McGuire says 2021, and a few of us have been reverting on Mora. I believe all three programs have stated that the interim coaches will finish out the season. Curious what others think. Mackensen (talk) 04:55, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

I think "coach of record" is a good way to put it - I'd think that if Mora got officially hired but an interim coach finished the season, we wouldn't list Mora as having started until 2022. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 07:08, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

I agree. We should go by "coach of record". Infoboxes and navboxes should reflect years in which a particular coach was credited with at least one game decision. Jweiss11 (talk) 17:20, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Technically, Mora is an assistant coach for the remainder of 2021, before taking over as head coach.[17]—Bagumba (talk) 10:01, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Nice story

Every now and then, we come across inspiring college football stories that go beyond wins and losses. One such story is the 1955 Hillsdale Dales football team -- an undefeated team that voted to decline a Tangerine Bowl bid because the bowl organizers insisted that the team's four black players (including national scoring leader Nate Clark) would have to stay home. There's also a decent student documentary on the team that can be viewed here. Cbl62 (talk) 13:22, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Cbl62, nice work on this and thanks for the heads up. Jweiss11 (talk) 17:09, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Early CCNY season articles

Our early articles on the CCNY football team are highly problematic in that, with one exception, they lack any reliable sources:

• 1873 CCNY Lavender football team - this one is the gem of the group as the single referenced game is actually supported by a reliable source -- SR/College Football
• 1875 CCNY Lavender football team - sourced entirely to a blog ("Lucky's Amazing Sports Lists") of dubious reliability
• 1876 CCNY Lavender football team - sourced entirely to the same "Lucky's Amazing Sports Lists"
• 1878 CCNY Lavender football team - sourced to "Lucky's Amazing Sports Lists" and to a New York Herald article that says the boys from CCNY didn't show up for a scheduled game with Stevens, resulting in a "scratch game" being played with some Columbia students. In other words, the cited source seems to show that there was no game with CCNY.
• 1880 CCNY Lavender football team - sourced entirely to "Lucky's Amazing Sports Lists"
• 1881 CCNY Lavender football team - sourced entirely to "Lucky's Amazing Sports Lists"
  

I don't like to see these articles deleted, as teams playing in these earliest years of American football are historically interesting and potentially notable, but I've looked for reliable sources and had no success. Anyone who wants to rescue these articles needs to come up with reliable sources to support them. Without such sourcing, they really have no place on Wikipedia and should be deleted or redirected. @MisterCake: @BeanieFan11: @ChuckNoll vs Vince Lombardi: as the creators of these articles. @力: whose 2017 effort to redirect one or more of these articles was reversed. Cbl62 (talk) 02:55, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

I found some sourcing for the 1878 and 1881 articles. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:22, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

I tried to find results for the 1876 season, which I created. In my search I found one game (Columbia) mentioned in College Football Data Warehouse [18], which I believe is reliable, and one other game in the blog website (that game is not listed in CFB Data Warehouse). My newspapers.com search did not bring up much. BeanieFan11 (talk) 03:35, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

An article for CCNY Beavers football ought to be created. Any seasons not deemed notable enough for their own article could be redirected and detailed there. Patriarca12 (talk · contribs) built out the majority of the season articles from 1922 to 1950, which are well sourced. Oddly, CCNY's final head coach, Irving Mondschein, was not the same person as Irving Mondschein, who was coaching at Lincoln in Pennsylvania at the same time! See 1950 CCNY Beavers football team. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:43, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

I still feel that these are problematic; they are presenting "seasons" using a modern lens that isn't supported by contemporaneous sources. There also just isn't enough coverage for stand-alone per-season articles. However, I have enough other things I would rather care about that I don't intend to say or do anything more than this one comment on this topic. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 16:40, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

User:力 has a point. And the sources being brought forward do not appear to constitute WP:SIGCOV. My suggestion would be to combine these into two decade articles: 1873-1879 (a grand total of 10 games); and 1880-1889 (a grand total of 26 games). Our project has trended away from decade articles, but when the seasons mostly comprise one to three games with a dearth of in-depth coverage, decade articles would be the better approach IMO -- and more defensible from a WP:GNG perspective. Any objection to this from those most active in building the CCNY articles? @Patriarca12: @MisterCake: @BeanieFan11: @ChuckNoll vs Vince Lombardi: Cbl62 (talk) 19:00, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Black college football national champion season articles

Hola, fellas. I'm well aware you've all got your own priorities as far as season articles needing creation, but I just noticed that there are a number of redlinks on {{Black college football national champion navbox}}. I feel like these are low-hanging fruit re: clearly notable, much needed major season articles. If I can find time to jump in and create an article or two to help the cause, I will. But if there are any CFB editors who are unsure of their next strategic initiative, maybe some of these season articles could be your inspiration? SportsGuy789 (talk) 20:19, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

A worthwhile effort. Cbl62 (talk) 20:38, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

That looks interesting, I'll see what I can do. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 21:50, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

That's a good idea, and I was thinking about working on those once I finish my current project with the Illinois colleges. Our coverage of HBCU football is a little lacking in general; we're also missing articles on a lot of the seasons in this list of HBCU dynasties, along with Florida A&M's 2004 season where they attempted and failed to join Division I-A. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 23:17, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Coach navboxes

I was wondering what we should do in the event that a program was suspended for a World War, or COVID in regards to a coach navbox when the same coach preceded and succeeded the missing seasons? I don't think we have been consistent with current programs that have suspended the 2020 season. Should we a) have the coaches' tenure be split like it was in WWII era coaches, ex. Randy Edsall (1999–2010)... Randy Edsall (2017–2019) No Team (2020) Randy Edsall (2021), b) omit the missing seasons ex, Randy Edsall (2017–2021), or c) combine the coaches tenure regardless of years omitted, this could even be for non-consecutive coaching tenures, an example of this is Todd Whitten, the head coach at Tarleton State, where it would say Todd Whitten (1996, 2000–2004, 2016– ).-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 01:48, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Examples of this inconsistency, current Georgia see WWI, current UCONN see Covid era.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 01:53, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

B Omit missing seasons within one coaching tenure. A navbox is for navigation—it doesn't need to get into technicalities or clutter with footnotes. Details should be available in the related team article or bio.—Bagumba (talk) 02:04, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

@Cbl62:, @Jweiss11:, @Paulmcdonald:.-Thoughts?-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 04:31, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Note that the standard formatting for these navboxes was established in late 2010 when we eliminated redundant succession boxes that included "technicalities" about years in which no team was fielded. The formatting is intended to combine the best elements of those deprecated succession boxes with the preexisting versions of the navboxes all in one efficient place. This standard was then rolled out to many other areas of North American sports. I support maintaining this status quo. Jweiss11 (talk)

I forget the specific names, but there are instances during WWII where (a) coaches went to war for four years, had someone fill in as coach during their military service, and then returned to their position after the war, or (a) programs went dark during the war and then resumed after hiatuses of two to four years. It strikes me as appearing historically accurate in those cases to display a continuous coaching tenure from, say 1937-1948 when it is actually 1937-1941, 1945-1948. Cbl62 (talk) 12:36, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

It looks to me like we "have" a standard, we just need to do the work to meet it. I think Jweiss11 has summed it up nicely.--Paul McDonald (talk) 12:42, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Old regional athlete trophies or cups

There is the Porter Cup and the Norris Cup. Do we know more about them? Also, do we know of any others like them? Several editors are more experienced with the midwest and the far west than I am. Cake (talk) 18:03, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

• W. J. Voit Memorial Trophy awarded by the Helms Athletic Foundation from 1951 to 1978 to the outstanding college football player on the Pacific Coast. I think there were other such annual trophies issued by Helms. I visited the LA84 Foundation library in Los Angeles a few years ago where some are on display. Cbl62 (talk) 12:29, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of several of my creations

Hello, I've been recently creating articles for historical NFL draft picks (e.g. Wally Garard, Jack Kraynick) and a few college football players who either easily meet GNG (Frank Gore Jr.) or meet NCOLLATH (Cain Madden, Tiawan Mullen) and Hyperwave11 nominated several of them for speedy deletion under A7, which I think is absolutely ridiculous! Is there a way these tags can be removed before being deleted? BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:19, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

See User_talk:BeanieFan11. As these articles stand, none nominated pass ncollath. Hyperwave11 (talk) 00:22, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Actually, multiple do meet NCOLLATH. BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:23, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

@Hyperwave11: Regardless of whether the athletes in question pass GNG/NCOLLATH or not, none of them qualify for speedy deletion under A7, which is reserved for articles that don't make a credible assertion of notability. All of the articles at least claim that their subject is notable through their football career. If you disagree with those claims, the next step is to take the article to AfD to discuss whether the subject is actually notable. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 00:32, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Understandable. Will do Hyperwave11 (talk) 00:35, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Polls or CFP?

What is the project's consensus on the use of Poll rankings or CFP once the CFP rankings are available? My understanding was that the consensus was to use the CFP Rankings once those are available (alas, the archive is too extensive for me to easily search to verify this). There is a user at the Big Ten's standings table template who continues reverting to the use of the AP Poll: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:2021_Big_Ten_Conference_football_standings If this is the consensus please advise, otherwise I am left wondering what to do to contain this. MrArticleOne (talk) 17:32, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

1955 Hillsdale

On the main page now " ... that the undefeated 1955 Hillsdale Dales football team declined a Tangerine Bowl bid because the bowl insisted that four black players—including national scoring leader Nate Clark—stay home?" Proud of this one. Cbl62 (talk) 01:00, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

University of Oklahoma fight name

Hey, I have long known that Oklahoma hasn't always had Sooners as its fight name. This article claims that OU adopted "Sooners" in 1908. I was wondering if anybody wouldn't mind helping to find when OU used "Rough Riders" and "Boomers" so the 1895-1907 seasons can be properly named? Thanks-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 04:38, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

I ran some quick searches on Newspapers.com (limited to Oklahoma newspapers) and found the following raw hits:

• 1902: "sooners" (3,560), "rough riders" (1,116), "boomers" (586)
• 1903: "sooners" (3,667), "rough riders" (731), "boomers" (726)
• 1904: "sooners" (5,186), "rough riders" (1,243), "boomers" (927)
• 1905: "sooners" (7,025), "rough riders" (2,354), "boomers" (1,471)
• 1906: "sooners" (8,459), "rough riders" (2,696), "boomers" (1,527)
• 1907: "sooners" (8,209), "rough riders" (2,304), "boomers" (1,288)
• 1908: "sooners" (7,350), "boomers" (1,288), "rough riders" (1,094)

After doing the searches, I realized they're not very reliable, as "sooners" was used much more broadly beyond the Oklahoma football program. The same also is true with respect to "rough riders". A more in-depth analysis is needed to figure out which nickname actually predominated. Cbl62 (talk) 06:04, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Bold in CFB team templates

User:DrKay is going through the team templates and changing the existing standard from bold to signify national championship seasons to underlining. E.g., here, here, here, here, here, here. Has this been discussed? What do folks think? Cbl62 (talk) 17:23, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

I saw the same thing on baseball and other navboxes. I don't have a huge issue with the change, but in my view when it impacts literally thousands of templates it should have been discussed first. Billcasey905 (talk) 17:30, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

My thoughts exactly. There should be a discussion first to see if consensus supports the change. If so, the change should be implemented across all the templates, as doing it ad hoc on a handful of templates creates a system of inconsistency. Cbl62 (talk) 17:35, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

It would be better to apply underline (or some other format) consistently across the navboxes because using bold doesn't work. At any season article that article will be bolded on the navbox, regardless of whether it was a championship season. Therefore, on the vast majority of season articles the phrase 'National championship seasons in bold' is incorrect. DrKay (talk) 17:36, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

I agree that bolding isn't a good solution for that reason, but underlining isn't an improvement for those people whose browsers use underlines with links (which is a common design pattern). I think a signifying character after the season, such as we do with interim coaches, would be better. Edit: I've revised {{Alabama Crimson Tide football navbox}} as a demonstration. Mackensen (talk) 19:33, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Looks OK to me. DrKay (talk) 09:15, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

I like the idea of adding the additional character that was suggested by Mackensen, I'd throw my support behind that. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 06:16, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Personally, I think the insertion of multiple "§" symbols looks overly busy and distracts from the clean appearance of the list of years. Cbl62 (talk) 11:53, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

I don't disagree, although Alabama is something of an outlier given the number of claimed national championships. I'm proceeding from the assumption that it's necessary to call out championships in this way. It might be clearer, and more useful, to have a separate navbox grouping for national championships:

The national championship links could potentially go to the playoff articles where appropriate, or just go to the individual season articles. I don't think it's a problem to have double linking for the national championship season. Mackensen (talk) 12:28, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

• Personally, I don't see a problem in need of a solution. I'm accustomed to the bolding and think it works well. The only "problem" is that the page you're on also displays in bold, but if you're already on that page, and have scrolled all the way to the bottom to where the template it, you know whether or not that's a NC season. Cbl62 (talk) 17:30, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

• To someone not accustomed to college football an article like 1892 Centre football team shows the team won the national season. They are top in the table, won all their games and are highlighted in the navbox. This is not an outlier. Other articles have the same problem. DrKay (talk) 18:30, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

What about bold italics or just italics if the regular bold doesn't work? BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:38, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Bold italics sounds OK. Cbl62 (talk) 18:39, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm with Cbl62. The status quo strikes me as a non-problem. Bold italics seems like the best option out of the proposed alternatives. Underlining clearly doesn't work. Symbols look pretty cluttery. A separate section creates redundant links. Those three are all definitely worse than the status quo. Jweiss11 (talk) 23:27, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

I agree that if we're making a change, bold italics is the best option. College Basketball, Baseball, Softball, and Soccer all use italics to indicate Final Four, CWS, and College Cup appearances, and so bold italics seems like a standard way to call out National Championships. Billcasey905 (talk) 00:39, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm in camp-don't-bold-it on this one. One thought I had was (if possible) a box could go around the conference championship. But the underline and double-underline look good. Just to be clear, I'm not going to fix it myself because 1) I don't know how; 2) I don't want to know how; and 3) I don't have the time. The best solution may be whatever is easiest.--Paul McDonald (talk) 15:28, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

What about CBBALL where Final Fours are italicized? I think creating a separate section might be what is best. It follows the pro model.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 04:32, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Professional sports' projects are often wildly inconsistent though. Maybe not the ice hockey project, but take a look at any other pro sport's infoboxes, templates, and navboxes. I think the college football and college basketball projects are the outliers for being organized and consistent (which is obviously a good thing). I am opposed to trying to align with the pro projects. SportsGuy789 (talk) 21:17, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

SportsGuy789, yes, I was thinking the same thing when the pro navboxes were mentioned above. If anything, the pro navboxes should be molded toward the college model. The college navboxes are much better designed. Take Template:San Francisco 49ers and San Francisco 49ers seasons for example: two navboxes to accomplish what the college navboxes do in one, even with longer histories. The pro navboxes also have crufty Easter egg links like "Joe Cool" to Joe Montana and lots of links to articles that don't have that navbox transcluded on that article, thus leaving the navigation around the navbox unclosed. Jweiss11 (talk) 21:28, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Big_Ten_Conference#Intra-conference_football_rivalries

The Big_Ten_Conference#Intra-conference_football_rivalries needs to be updated for the George Jewett Trophy. I don't spend a lot of time on WP anymore and don't want to mess up the table.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:36, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

• @Jweiss11 and Cbl62:-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:31, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

TonyTheTiger I added the George Jewett Trophy to the table. Looks like some of the other data in the table could use some updating. Jweiss11 (talk) 18:51, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

@TonyTheTiger: Hope we have you back here soon. Cbl62 (talk) 21:26, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Working on an app. So, if I have a lot of time to be back here, that would be bad news.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:43, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Good luck with the app! Cbl62 (talk) 03:52, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Rankings on yearly team pages question

If a team is ranked in the AP poll but not the CFP rankings after those come out, do we consider them ranked for the schedule and game summary sections and put their AP ranking or does the CFP ranking take priority and the team is considered unranked?

For example, in 2021 Penn State was ranked #22 or #23 in the AP poll but unranked in the CFP. On the Michigan page, this has been edited multiple times, so looking for clarification. Thanks! SilverPlacebo15 (talk) 06:04, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

My impression is that we use AP until the first CFP rankings come out, and then from there CFP takes precedence. I know CFP is used in game summaries on bowl game pages and the like. So, to answer your question, I believe you'd be correct in saying that a team ranked in the AP but unranked in the CFP would be considered unranked. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 06:15, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

AfD: List of college football coaches who coached games in stadiums named after themselves

List of college football coaches who coached games in stadiums named after themselves has been nominated for deletion. Please see the discussion here. Jweiss11 (talk) 23:40, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Question about the lead of an article

If a player is currently on a roster but has not yet played, shouldn't the lead mention that he is on the team? Because Onel5969 keeps reverting my edits on Myles Adams, claiming "until he plays, he's not on the team". BeanieFan11 (talk) 23:45, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

For him to be considered to have played for a team, he must have actually played for a team. If a player is put on the roster, never plays, and then is dropped from the roster, he was never in the league. Oh, and by the way, he's on the practice squad, not on the roster of the team. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 00:28, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, that's a player on the practice squad. The player could move up (many do) and the player could be notable already (some are). No opinion from me on that particular case.--Paul McDonald (talk) 15:25, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Dygert / Dygart

@Paulmcdonald: @Jweiss11: George B. Dygart and George Dygert. Same person? Cbl62 (talk) 06:31, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

• Could be, good catch. Let's put that on the list to check.--Paul McDonald (talk) 14:05, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

I've confirmed it's the same guy and that Dygert is the correct spelling. Added some sourcing to the Dygert article. Any objection to a redirect? Cbl62 (talk) 14:47, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

None from me, seems completely non-controversial and in the best interest of Wikipedia.--Paul McDonald (talk) 15:23, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

I redirected George B. Dygart. In a similar situation, it appears that Nate Duffy and Ignatius M. Duffy could be the same person. Jweiss11 (talk) 17:09, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

A number of open AfD for college football head coach

A number of stubby articles for college football head coaches have been nominated for deletion. Please the following discussions:

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mike Mayerske
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Frank Masters
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bill Latto
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Roman Krawchuck
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Randolph Howard
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/J. E. Bradshaw
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/T. G. Yearwood

Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 16:52, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Three other CFB coach articles that were not mentioned above are also being discussed at AFD, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Courtland Pollard, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fred Chenoweth, and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Henry Canine. BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:35, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Consensus conversation: College of Charleston versus Charleston

Please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College Basketball#"College of Charleston" or just "Charleston" and weigh in. As the college football, basketball, and baseball projects should be aligned, it'd be ideal if members from all of them participated. Thank you. SportsGuy789 (talk) 23:55, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

How soon is WP:TOOSOON?

I was under the impression that the project consensus was to wait to create articles for the next year until this season has concluded. That is, 2022 season articles shouldn't be started until the national championship game has ended. Jpp858 has been creating a good number of these 2022 articles - should we be waiting or has this consensus changed? PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:50, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Sorry I did not know if a consensus was made about it. I created articles after seeing the Alabama and Florida were created. The articles I’ve created I've included sourcing other the general FBschedules source that is placed on each article. Programs that has not announced I have not created a page for and I agree the articles should not be created until after their program season. I can hold out until after the season is over. --Jpp858 (talk) 19:11, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, we're supposed to wait until the 2021 season is over on January 10 to begin making 2022 season articles. But I don't have the heart to thwart efforts to get started a little early. Nevertheless, best to hold off and work on the 150+ years of college football that has already happened! Jweiss11 (talk) 00:30, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Dan Lanning to Oregon

Many news outlets are reporting that Dan Lanning has been hired as the new head coach at Oregon. An IP editor has suggested that we need to wait for official confirmation from the university to reflect this in the article. Do we? Has this not yet been confirmed by Oregon? Jweiss11 (talk) 00:32, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

I know it is a moot point now, but in this case I think the IP is being consistent with what happens in NBA free agency, and with what occured with a certain former Oklahoma coach heading to USC.[19] So in order to be consistent, it should be named by the institution.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 01:52, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Naming the 2020–21 season

While the the 2020 NCAA Division I FBS football season finished as regularly scheduled with only a few postseason games played after the new year, all lower divisions had significant portions of their season rescheduled to the spring of 2021 because of Covid. We have named these seasons 2020–21 NCAA Division I FCS football season, 2020–21 NCAA Division III football season, and 2020 NAIA football season. No article has yet been created for NCAA Division II, but some of those teams and conferences did play in the spring of 2021. However, all of the related categories, templates, and individual team articles have been named "2020...", e.g. Category:2020 NCAA Division I FCS football season, Template:2020 Big Sky Conference football standings, 2020 Sam Houston State Bearkats football team, 2020 West Alabama Tigers football team, 2020 Wesley Wolverines football team, 2020 Lindsey Wilson Blue Raiders football team. Should these articles and other elements all be renamed to "2020–21..."? Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 23:53, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

For teams that played all of their games in the first half of 2021, it does seem wrong to title them 2020 Lindsey Wilson Blue Raiders football team. Since all of their games were played in 2021, it strikes me that the most accurate solution for such teams would be something like 2021 (spring) Lindsey Wilson Blue Raiders football team or Spring 2021 Lindsey Wilson Blue Raiders football team or even 2021 (winter/spring) Lindsey Wilson Blue Raiders football team. Cbl62 (talk) 02:21, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Cbl, I think we'd be much better off naming everything related to a particular season the same way. Consider Template:2020 Great Plains Athletic Conference football standings or if were were to make an article for the NAIA runners-up, the Northwestern Red Raiders, who played their regular season in the fall of 2020 and participated in the NAIA playoffs in spring 2021. Jweiss11 (talk) 04:01, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Two different parts IMO. The overall seasons (e.g. 2020–21 NCAA Division III football season) span the two years and are correctly named accordingly as "2020–21". However, individual team seasons should be named according to which years they actually played. This is the precedent we have followed previously. When particular teams have played non-standard schedules, we have recognized that in naming the individual team's season article. E.g., 1876–77 Harvard Crimson football team (part of the 1876 college football season). Extending the same logic here, Spring 2021 Lindsey Wilson Blue Raiders football team (part of the 2020–21 NAIA football season). That seems logical to me, but I don't feel very strongly. Cbl62 (talk) 08:24, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

The precedent for those 1870s articles doesn't seem to be very strong, given that Harvard's spring 1877 opponent is named 1876 Princeton Tigers football team—the date of the game also doesn't match on the two articles. And if the overall season contains 1876–77 Harvard Crimson football team, shouldn't it be named 1876–77 college football season? We should also note that in the 1870s, there were no overarching bodies organizing college football to delimit the beginning and end of a season in any sort of official way. It was just individual teams scheduling games with other teams ad hoc. That's quite different from the structured competition we have now. The 2020 Lindsey Wilson Blue Raiders football team originally had games scheduled for the fall of 2020 and ultimately played against teams that did play in the fall of 2020. I strongly suggest we apply a consistent naming structure within a particular season. Jweiss11 (talk) 18:51, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

RFC that could affect this project

There is a titling RFC at Wikipedia talk:Article titles that will affect many articles at this project. There was discussion of making the RfC handled bit by bit before all projects understood the ramifications with entertainment being singled out next in a deleted draft, and other projects after that. Whether you agree or don't agree please join in the discussion for this massive Wikipedia change. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:40, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Proposed WikiProject Purdue University

Hey all! I would like to invite any editors here to show their support for and potentially join the new WikiProject: Purdue University. It hasn't technically been made yet, and I only proposed it just a few minutes ago, but I'm trying to start out strong. The Project would aim to improve existing Purdue University-related articles and create new ones. As it is still in the proposal process, you can show your support here: Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals/Purdue University. Thanks!! Invinciblewalnut (talk) 20:25, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

@Invinciblewalnut: Not sure why you're posting here. Does Purdue play college football? ;) Cbl62 (talk) 22:10, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

They do have a football team, yes Invinciblewalnut (talk) 02:19, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

2020–21 NCAA Division II football season

Even though NCAA canceled the championship and some teams and conferences decided not to play football in the fall of 2020 or the spring of 2021, some teams played. The same process took place at DIII and there is an article about the 2020-21 season of DIII (2020–21 NCAA Division III football season), so, for consistency reasons, in my opinion, I think the article on D-II also should be created. Luks25 (talk) 01:35, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Be bold, friend, and create it! SportsGuy789 (talk) 02:47, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Luks25, yes, this should be created. If you want to kick it off, go for it. Happy to help. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:14, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

I made an attempt at creating this when I made the D3 article linked above, but I found it was a touch more difficult as there is not a centralized hub of information on D2 football like there is for D3 football. Sure, there's d2football.com, but I didn't find it nearly as helpful as its Division III counterpart. I'm happy to help with the page as well if information can be found. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 03:19, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I had problem searching centralized information too, I thought someone could had it, but now I created the article after searching almost every school schedule in their website, if I made some mistake or forgot something, people can help with the article. Thanks everyone Luks25 (talk) 21:49, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

I know that some schools consider 2020-21 as official and others as strictly exhibition if they played.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 01:59, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Disambiguation question

Hello, I see that we have Harry Thayer (American football), an 1890s fullback and halfback who played for Penn, Harry Thayer (American football executive), who was general manager of the Philadelphia Eagles from '41 to '46 (and the Los Angeles Dons from '47 to '49), and another player who meets NGRIDIRON but does not yet have a page named Harry Thayer, who played tackle and guard in 1933 (see here). (the last one may also have been a coach, see [20]) My question is, what are these pages to be named? The first and last ones I mentioned both played multiple positions, and so I am not sure what the disambig titles will be. BeanieFan11 (talk) 20:05, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Discussion at WT:NFL regarding coaches.

There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League#Article formats -> Create a format for coaches? that might interest a few editors here because of the overlap between certain college and NFL coaches?-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 16:58, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Lingering question on the meaning of "from"

I've long wondered but never asked. If a football payer is born in Florida, moves to Georgia as a very young boy, grows up and goes to high school in Georgia, does he belong in the Category for "Players of American football from Florida" or "Players of American football from Georgia", or both? I've generally gone with the place of birth but sometimes it doesn't seem right if the amount of time spent there was minimal. Variants on this come up all the time. Cbl62 (talk) 16:05, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

It's really a general question for categories like Category:People from Florida, and not sport specific. "From" is ambiguous whether it relates to one's birthplace, where they grew up, their principal residence, etc. There's no guidance in the categories' descriptions either.—Bagumba (talk) 16:46, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Cbl, I default to the state where the person went to high school over the state where the person was born, if the two are different. I suppose both categories could be included. We also need to think about the people/sportspeople from city categories as well. Many of these are being broken down by sport such that we now have Category:Players of American football from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. User:Grutness has been active with this effort. Jweiss11 (talk) 17:09, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

I do both birth and high school assuming the player went to an in-area high school where they lived. Rikster2 (talk) 17:47, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

I've been going primarily by whatever categories are already in place, though I'll admit some of them seem pretty tenuous. Place of birth makes sense, as does high school, but quite a few players seem to have just about everywhere they played listed, which seems like overkill. Grutness...wha? 00:18, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

• Bagumba raises another level of ambiguity. I've always thought of "from" in these situations to refer to "originating from" (and thus have generally gone with place of birth), but if the same Fla/Ga athlete hypothesized above moves after high school to Illinois and lives his entire adult life there, Illinois is another candidate as to where he is "from". Do folks think a more general discussion is appropriate to try to reach some sort of consensus? If so, where? Cbl62 (talk) 18:14, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

In the case of American sports, the "originating from" really refers most to where the person attended high school, likely where he or she started gaining notoriety for playing the sport that ultimately made them notable and from where he or she was recruited or drafted to play college or pro sports. Michael Jordan was born in Brooklyn but he is most "from" North Carolina, having grown up and attended high school in Wilmington, North Carolina. Jim Harbaugh is in interesting example. He was born in Toledo, Ohio and spent his early childhood in Kentucky, Ohio, and Iowa as his father, Jack, moved to various coaching jobs, before attending high school in Michigan and California. Perhaps, this issue isn't fundamentally sports-specific and concerns other occupations as well. In that case, maybe the place to discuss it is either Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography or Wikipedia:Categorization? Jweiss11 (talk) 22:44, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

I agree to an extent, though the caveat is if the high school is essentially where they live. Players for IMG Academy aren't from Bradenton, Florida, for example. High school athletes are notable for their communities - as evidenced by countless "best plays from City X" lists. But the place of birth is also a valid "from" answer - in fact, there are editors who think that is the only "from." But I think about myself - I qualify as "from" my city of birth but if someone asks me today then I will answer that I am "from" my current home. There is no issue with two categories if this is the case. Rikster2 (talk) 13:45, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. Discussion opened at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography#Meaning of "from", cross-referenced at Wikipedia talk:Categorization#Meaning of "from". Cbl62 (talk) 13:50, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Notability of several CFB players

Hello, Onel5969 has been tagging a few CFB players I believe meet GNG with {Notability}, and when I removed it they said I am not allowed to "remove them without improvement". Is this how the notability tag works? I've listed a few of them below so someone else can check whether they pass GNG:

• Will Taylor (American football)
• Olakunle Fatukasi
• Nick Starkel
• Zay Flowers

BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:20, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

I removed the tag from Starkel. That one's clearly notable. Jweiss11 (talk) 18:42, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Pete Vainowski

Pete Vainowski, who played nine seasons professionally, including one in the National Football League (also in college for Loyola), was deleted in an AFD in which there were 8 keeps and 3 deletes, making this the only time ever, we have deleted an article on a topic meeting NGRIDIRON. What do users here think about this? BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:15, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

• Disappointed, but Vainowski is a poor "test case" for defending NGRIDIRON, given that (i) his NFL career was limited to one game, and (ii) we could not find anything remotely resembling SIGCOV.
  • Do you agree with the closure? BeanieFan11 (talk) 20:26, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

No but I don't think it would be overturned. There is a substantial wave of support for challenging the sports SNGs that has developed in response to the mass creation of cricket sub-stubs, and unfortunately that wave has now reached the shores of the NFL. Cbl62 (talk) 20:41, 26 December 2021 (UTC)