Talk:Advent

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A further word on my edit from today[edit]

I said that I was going to make that red link on Rorate Mass - which is definitely worth a little article - into a blue one. However, seems I can't. Fine. I'll leave the link because I do think someone else should.--2.236.198.248 (talk) 00:16, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Is there enough material to create an article for Rorate Mass? If so, take it to Wikipedia:Articles for creation and link it when it is created. If fixed the edit but may have butchered the prose in doing so. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:36, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Expectant waiting vs waiting[edit]

An anon has objected to both the whole phrase and the combination of terms. The term is frequently used in relation to advent. It's also used alone. Please explain the objection in light of that. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:18, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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Advent-Labyrinth[edit]

Why the video of an Advent labyrinth was removed? [[File:HK Advents-Labyrinth 14122013 100sec.ogg|thumb|Cretan style Advent labyrinth made with 2500 burning tealights in the Centre for Christian Meditation and Spirituality of the Diocese of Limburg at the Holy Cross Church in Frankfurt am Main-Bornheim]] --Urmelbeauftragter 11:07, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Elizium23 (talk · contribs) remvoed it and stated why: New Age/pagan practice. While I disagree with that reason as there's no support that it a new-age or pagan practice, I will say that it's not a common activity during Advent. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:38, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
OK, there were three labyrinths in Frankfurt or in the area around this year made with candles as far as I know. But they were not only in the time of Advent.--Urmelbeauftragter 17:25, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
If it were an authentic Christian tradition then I would have no objection, but the plain facts are that the "labyrinth" is a New Age innovation brought in by dissenters and heretics in order to paganize the Christian religions and remake them into something they are not. The use of a "labyrinth" for Advent is even further from traditional rituals and customs and an altogether foreign innovation that will not stand the test of time, once the aging hippies of the 60s die out and Europe completes her apostasy, leaving empty churches to be converted into mosques and nightclubs. Elizium23 (talk) 21:24, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
Three in Frankfurt? Is it an activity peculiar to Frankfurt am Main? How many in Berlin, Hamburg, Munich, Stuttgart, Bonn or Dresden? Is it restricted to Germany? Does Whittenberg have one? (addressing Catholic vs Protestant issues) Other locations through Europe? It's not common where I live which is why I ask. There are 558,000 hist when I do a Google search for the term (without quotes) but only 4,160 when I turn it into a phrase: "Advent Labyrinth". Three of the hits on the first page, of ten links, are from https://labyrinthsociety.org/. I'm not entirely sure this is popular. If a section were written on the topic, with reliable sources not directly linked to the walks (read WP:SECONDARY sources such as newspapers, chapters of books, or something like those) I would consider that the video would be informative, otherwise, it's a distraction and curiosity.
Is there any support that labyrinths are exclusively new age? Again, a simple Google search says no. Search for labyrinth in Christian tradition. And http://www.christianitytoday.com/pastors/2001/fall/4.38.html and http://www.christianitytoday.com/women/2016/february/is-it-okay-for-christian-to.html Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:29, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
The Protestant church of Frankfurt also use labyrinth with candles, the Franciscan order uses a Garden labyrinth in their convent near Frankfurt, he most famous labyrinth in a church is the one in Chartres Cathedral. All of them have nothing to do with "New Age" or "Paganism".--Urmelbeauftragter 22:43, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
I have provided at least two reliable sources, and my search showed a few more. Would you be able to write a sentence or three describing the activity? Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:46, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
What do you mean with activity? The course in which the Advent labyrinth is created or the church service in which it is used?--Urmelbeauftragter 22:57, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
Add an encyclopedic explanation of the activity. If you can find the history, all the better. If you can't, current practice would be enough. A specific instance would be too narrow of a focus for an encyclopedia. Just make sure that you have reliable, secondary sources to support. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:22, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
I'm sorry. As far s I know here is no further or secondary source for it. The Advent labyrinth I know is part of the program of the Centre for Christian Meditation and Spirituality of the Diocese of Limburg. The second source is from a visitor who is consultant (I don't know if this is the right translation for the German word "Referentin") for Girls and women work of the Diocese.--Urmelbeauftragter 08:53, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
What do you think about this source from 2012: Video about the Advent labyrinth 2012 on YouTube? It's from a reporter of the KNA (Katholische Nachrichtenagentur, =Catholic News Agency).--Urmelbeauftragter 09:25, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
The first linked article is behind a paywall so I can't comment in either direction on it. The second article is an editorial opinion, only usable under WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV as a WP:BIASED source. It also indicates a high degree of resistance to the concept among Christians, and if the author had bothered to do research in depth, would have discovered much more. [1] [2] You and I may have a disagreement on what precisely constitutes "Christian Tradition" and whether that Tradition should be rooted in something perhaps older than the last 50 years. Elizium23 (talk) 02:45, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
It's not behind a paywall for me. Your first article is also a blog and your second doesn't state it's new age, and instead supports it going back to at least the middle ages with renewed interest in the 1950s. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:14, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
The "renewed interest" is altogether discontinous with the usage in the Middle Ages, mostly because it is rather mysterious what exactly the usage actually was back then. Elizium23 (talk) 07:17, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
What does your second source say? Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:19, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
For the record, @Urmelbeauftragter:, you might find some information from that second link useful if you are planning on writing a section on it here. It does not tie-in directly with Advent though. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:24, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
"Labyrinths in medieval cathedrals and churches almost certainly had symbolic meaning, although documentation is scarce to nonexistent. One possibility is that the ancient Greek myth was Christianized, so that the Minotaur represented the devil, and Theseus represented the victorious Christ. Doreen Prydes, a professor of medieval history at the University of Notre Dame, says there is absolutely no evidence of labyrinth walking in the Middle Ages. She believes that Christians of that era saw the labyrinth as a symbol of redemption, not pilgrimage." Elizium23 (talk) 07:36, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
"Artress repeats the claims of some radical feminist theologians that nine million women were burned at the stake as witches during the Middle Ages in a patriarchal attempt to suppress feminine spiritual vitality. "The old religions that embraced the connection to the natural world were destroyed," she laments. "We lost our connection to creation. Trusting the labyrinth is one step towards reclaiming that connection," she concludes.
Tragically for Artress and other labyrinth enthusiasts, Yahweh remains a "stumbling block for many seekers." This stern, jealous, male God, who is so "repugnant" to many people, is supposed to have created all of the natural order, "usurping" the role of the "Mother, the creator of life." Artress asserts that too many Christians are afraid to liberate themselves from this tyrannical deity and to trust instead "our inner, objective experience."
Artress likes to quote Carl Jung about "archetypes" and Joseph Campbell about "the numinous." She has helped Matthew Fox organize his pantheistic "planetary mass." She also seems to be an adherent of process theology, believing that "God" is constantly unfolding into a new process and new identity, revealed through our own experiences. Like the labyrinth, this "Mother god weaves the web of creation." The labyrinth, like the goddess, is "all-encompassing in its twists and turns, reflecting the presence of the Divine.""
  • This is inimical to Christian doctrine and tradition. This is, bluntly, sugar-coated heresy with a cross painted on top. I suggest you read the entire article for yourself, it is not paywalled and to quote any more here would be both a copyvio and dangerous to my personal sanity. Elizium23 (talk) 07:39, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
Women of Grace is a WP:NEWSBLOG, they have a highly respected media apostolate which broadcasts on EWTN with a reputation for editorial oversight and fact-checking. Elizium23 (talk) 07:42, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I'm sorry. You lost me when you went to "sugar-coated heresy". That's clearly WP:SYNTH at best and WP:OR at worst. I reread the source you provided and I did not come away with what you are coming away with. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:44, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

And for the record, the CT piece that you called a blog is not, it's an opinion piece. Feel free to take that to RSN though. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:47, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
Who called what a blog? This is a talk page - I'm not proposing to insert "sugar-coated heresy" in any article, I'm just explaining the clear conclusion the article is explaining. Elizium23 (talk) 17:56, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
I stand corrected. You called it an editorial piece. It's not sugar-coating heresy. You've really got to stop pushing your POV here. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:34, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
It's not POV to say that labyrinths are foreign to Christian tradition, and most certainly not an Advent custom outside of a few WP:FRINGE cases. The onus is on the proposer to prove that inclusion is warranted, not on me. Elizium23 (talk) 21:21, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
Of course it is, particularly when one of the sources you provided alludes to its use in the middle ages. There is no practice in Christian tradition that is not foreign to it. Baptism was a Jewish practice, as was Eucharist. I can't think of any common practice to any branch of the church today that did not start outside of the faith. What makes it Christian is not its origin but how it is practised. Advent itself was a fringe activity at one point and did not gain acceptance until after the schism between Eastern and Western churches. The Advent wreath, prominent at this time of year in almost every Western church was considered pagan and influenced by Druid activity a century ago. Even the colours of the candles vary from region to region, but some editors think that their practice is the only one. So Advent is over, and it would be appropriate to add a section on labyrinth walking to the section currently titled "Folk traditions" and rename it "Regional and fringe practices", or something similar. As long as it's referenced. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:44, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
The meaning of colours of candles was new for me. I never heard from it in Catholical church. But there were regional differencs. The candles in the Advent wreath are normally red as far as I know and there are no differences between the Sundays of Advent.
So you are of the opinion that it would be possible to add a section concerning advent labyrinths?--Urmelbeauftragter 08:34, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
If you don't mind Elizium23 thinking you're an apostate, heretic or worse, sure. As long as you have good sources there's not much that he can do to refute it. It's clearly not a prominent activity at Advent, so don't frame it as such. Walter Görlitz (talk) 08:38, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
OK, I will try it.--Urmelbeauftragter 15:27, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
Personally I'm not a fan of this attempt to spam WP:FRINGE stuff into every tangentially related article. It's been reverted on Labyrinth and there is no consensus for inclusion here, either. Elizium23 (talk) 18:09, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
Why you have removed the Christian use of candle labyrinths from the article Labyrinth. Why you don't remove pagan symbols like Christmas trees or Advent wreaths from Christian articles because they were Pagan origin? ;-) And moreover the Christian cross itself has a Pagan origin. First it was a Roman execution tool from a time the Romans were no Christians.--Urmelbeauftragter 22:45, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── The reason given was clear: a five-year old tradition did not belong in a folk traditions section. I restored it, made a copy edit and changed the heading. It would be better to have a general overview rather than a single incident, but I will have to hold off for a while on making that change. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:52, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

My question concerned the change in the article Labyrinth where the section concerning Christian use of candle labyrinths was removed by Elizum23 and replaced by arguments why labyrinths are Pagan origin and no Christian symbols.--Urmelbeauftragter 23:01, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
This is not about the origin of a practice but rather the actual doctrine and usage of the practice as it stands today. The other things you mention have been absorbed into Christianity and given Christian symbolism and meaning, divorcing them from their previous religion. Labyrinths, on the other hand, have been embraced by New Age pagans and used to push the envelope of Christian doctrine beyond its breaking point and into Bizarro World. What I would appreciate would be reliable secondary sources (unlike the ones which had been provided) demonstrating this practice as an authentic tradition and what kind of Christian doctrine it represents. Walter Gorlitz has restored the section by changing its stated topic, to which I strenuously object: These kind of articles describe time-honored traditions, not 5-year-old fads. Furthermore, as I have already mentioned, and is evidenced clearly by User talk:Urmelbeauftragter: this editor is trying to wedge his preferred subjects into every single article he possibly can, even those that bear only a tangential relation to the central topic (like a Cathedral in Ethiopia for a program being run in the eparchy? Every single article about text included in his favorite oratorio?) and this is running afoul of WP:PROMOTION and WP:SPAM. The editor has denied a WP:COI but we have to consider if the activity is all the same regardless of his connection or lack thereof. Elizium23 (talk) 02:00, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
I have posted to WP:DRN in order to invite outside discussion and evaluation of this dispute. Elizium23 (talk) 02:09, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
OK, I posted my statement there--Urmelbeauftragter 13:27, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
And what happens now with it? The dispute ist still open as far as I can see.--Urmelbeauftragter 09:59, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
We wait. The article will receive fewer readers for the next ten months so we can make the change when the dispute is closed or Elizium23 adds the video back.
While we wait, you could try to make the section a bit more general and find a few more sources. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:16, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Dates[edit]

Do we really need the section at all? Right now, it starts giving as the dates for 2015. Relevance?? - If we keep it, can we at least put the next year first. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:35, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

When it wasn't in the infobox, it was needed. Now that it is, it's probably not useful. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:31, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
I was bold and removed it at the bottom. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:28, 28 December 2016 (UTC)