Talk:Comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany

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This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations:

Hava Mendelle (March 23, 2024). "The World Jewish Congress investigates Wikipedia". Spectator Australia. Retrieved March 23, 2024. However, one example that can stand out is the article titled Comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany. This entry is disturbing due to its perpetuation of antisemitism through its overall contextual framing and biased portrayal of Israel. One may question the rationale behind such an article and ask why Israel, a democratic country, is singled out, whereas there are no dictatorships with parallel articles.
Izabella Tabarovsky (25 July 2024). "Wikipedia's Jewish Problem". Tablet. Retrieved 25 July 2024. By contrast, the article normalizing equations between Israel and Nazi Germany—a propagandistic concept that has been weaponized against Jews for decades––remains on the site.
Shraga Simmons (November 11, 2024). "Weaponizing Wikipedia against Israel: How the global information pipeline is being hijacked by digital jihadists". aish. Archived from the original on November 13, 2024. Retrieved December 1, 2024.

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ADL is a literal lobbying arm of the Israeli government. Please remove their quote.

It is well documented by credible journalists that the ADL works in tandem and takes orders from Israeli intelligence agencies. They are foreign agents and have zero credibility on this issue. State actors should not be quoted in an article analyzing said state. 2603:8081:6440:FC:EDFA:D2E3:462C:5D44 (talk) 08:41, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Al Jazeera is cited here and that is Qatari state media and several journalists have been exposed for Iranian, Hamas and Hezbollah ties. If anything, AJ should not be here. AJ Arabic had an incident where one of its clerics called for the mass murder of Jews. The ADL does important research and education on antisemitism and the Shoah. SalomeofJudea (Maria) (talk) 19:06, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why not remove them both if multiple people have issues with it? I don't think it's fair to say "we can leave in this biased quote because there are OTHER biased quotes in the article." garriefisher (talk) 22:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. Steven1991 (talk) 04:46, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We attribute these opinions and they're due. I don't think they're due in the lead though - the current lead is lots of "he said she said" which doesn't match the MoS. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:52, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

AJ is a RS. ADL on the other hand shouldn't be used per WP:ADLPIA. - Ïvana (talk) 19:18, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

archaic

for a holocaust inversion trope that is antisemitic is a perversion of English usage. The word is 'old'. 'Archaic' carries the meaning of anything from high antiquity to pre-history, a meaning not to be attached to antisemitism. Nishidani (talk) 20:14, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Holocaust inversion

@Bobfrombrockley this was previously discussed at Talk:Comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany/Archive 1#Failed verification, the problem with putting that as an alt name or also called is that this article covers things that are not called that. For example the comparison to Lebensraum or comparing laws that are race-based or calling Israel a Herrenvolk democracy are not comparing aspects of the Holocaust. Could you self-revert the lead addition until we can discuss this further? nableezy - 10:37, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. I don’t think I agree with you but happy to revert and look at it properly some other time. BobFromBrockley (talk) 23:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Bob, nableezy - 23:59, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I’ve now read that discussion, which I hadn’t read when I edited the phrase into the lead. I agree with you, Nableezy, and Boynamedsue, when you argue that the term is not synonymous with the title of this article (by no means all instances of comparison are forms of inversion), and I understand that a formula like “sometimes knows as” might imply synonymity. However, bearing in mind that Holocaust inversion redirects here, and especially given EricSpokane has conclusively shown it is an important term in the scholarship (which has probably grown since that discussion), I think it does is indeed proper that it be in the lead and in fact that it be in bold in the lead. I would propose a compromise along the lines of a separate sentence later in the lead that is framed something like “The term H/i is sometimes used to describe —-“ and then give a precise definition of it that doesn’t inflate it. BobFromBrockley (talk) 06:49, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The redirect is fine as there are things this covers that *are* referred to as inversion, but the overall topic I disagree is. Bolding would be for an alt name, and if we agree this isn’t an alt name for this overall topic then it shouldn’t be bolded. nableezy - 06:55, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All that said I’m not opposed to a line that says something like when the comparisons made are about the Holocaust, they are sometimes referred to as Holocaust inversion, which critics of the comparison consider to be antisemitic. nableezy - 13:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK, that sounds fair. I'll draft a suggestion when I can. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:02, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Incidents connecting Holocaust with Israel's actions

In November 2024, a keffiyeh-clad woman performed a Hitler salute at a Montreal pro-Palestine protest; afterward, the coffee franchise she ran condemned her "hateful remarks and gestures."^[1] Holocaust memorials have been defaced by pro-Palestine activists in Amsterdam and Milan. In Norway, a mural depicting Anne Frank in a keffiyeh was decried as antisemitic by the European Jewish Congress.^[2] On the November 2024 anniversary of Kristallnacht, the only glatt kosher restaurant in the U.S capital, Washington D.C., was vandalized by breaking glass. Kristallnacht, the Nazi-ordered night of antisemitic attacks on Jewish homes, synagogues and businesses, was known as the ‘night of the broken glass”.^[3]

^ Heller, Mathilda (2024-11-24). "Montreal coffee chain terminates contract with woman videoed doing Hitler salute". The Jerusalem Post. Retrieved 2024-11-24.
^ Lapin, Andrew; Berman, Lazar; Fabian, Emanuel; Fabian, Emanuel (2024-07-26). "Graffiti in Norway of Anne Frank wearing a keffiyeh sparks outrage". The Times of Israel. Retrieved 2024-11-28.
^ Silverman, Ellie (2024-11-10). "D.C. police investigating shattered windows at kosher restaurant". Washington Post. Retrieved 2024-11-29.

@User:Smallangryplanet Please explain reverts. Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 23:45, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Allthemilescombined1 Hi, I reverted this because it doesn't have anything to do with comparing Israel and Nazi germany, which is the topic of the article. Smallangryplanet (talk) 11:54, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@SmallangryplanetIt does have to do with Holocaust inversion, which now redirects to this article. Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 23:27, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Allthemilescombined1 a redirect is not meant to change the content of the article, it is just that: a redirect. This is obviously WP:SYNTH, and the information in question exists on other pages. Smallangryplanet (talk) 10:38, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Palestinian views on Holocaust education

In 2014, Palestinian Al-Quds University political science professor Mohammed Dajani led a trip for 30 students to Auschwitz to learn about the Holocaust. He was accused of teaching a Zionist narrative, received threats, and was forced to resign from his teaching position at Al-Quds University in Jerusalem. Dajani later commented that in Palestinian society, “there is a social ban on researching any issue related to the Holocaust from the Jewish perspective.”^[1]

In 2023, President Mahmoud Abbas, speaking at a Fatah gathering, claimed that Hitler persecuted the Jews because of their “social role,” which “had to do with usury, money and so on and so forth.” He falsely denied that Ashkenazi Jews are descended from ancient Israelites. This echoed his 1982 Moscow doctoral thesis, which blamed Zionists for allowing the Holocaust to occur, and reduced the number of Jewish victims from six million to below one million.^[2]

In fall 2024, George Washington University's Program on Extremism began an Arabic-language program, as part of its Antisemitism Research Initiative, with a seminar on bringing Holocaust education to Arabic-speaking audiences. The initiative was led by Professor Omar Mohammed, and featured Faisal Saeed Al Mutar, founder of Ideas Beyond Borders.^[3]

Mina Abdelmalak, Arabic Audience Outreach Program Manager at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, discussed how to address the Holocaust knowledge gap on Professor Mohammed’s podcast, 36 Minutes on Antisemitism, in an episode entitled “Interfaith Dialogues and Addressing Antisemitism”.^[4]

^ Pacchiani, Gianluca; Berman, Lazar; Fabian, Emanuel (2023-09-17). "Palestinian professor who took students to Auschwitz: Holocaust denial imperils peace". The Times of Israel. Retrieved 2024-11-28.
^ Berman, Lazar (2023-09-07). "US antisemitism envoy and EU denounce Mahmoud Abbas's speech: Distorts the Holocaust". The Times of Israel. Retrieved 2024-11-28.
^ "Translating the Holocaust: Building Bridges of Understanding in the Arab World (Arabic Event)". Program on Extremism. Retrieved 2024-11-28.
^ "S3E1: Interfaith Dialogues and Addressing Antisemitism". Acast. 2024-11-04. Retrieved 2024-11-28.

@User:Smallangryplanet Please explain reverts. Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 23:49, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Allthemilescombined1 Same with this one, none of these incidents have anything to do with the topic of the article, i.e. none of them involve a comparison between Israel and Nazi Germany. It would be a frankly unbelievable WP:SYNTH to include them. Smallangryplanet (talk) 11:58, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@SmallangryplanetThis article is what's left of the article on Holocaust inversion, so that's where it belongs. Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 23:28, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The topic of this article are comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany. None of this content is at all related to that topic, making it WP:SYNTH. nableezy - 23:30, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Allthemilescombined1 again, that's not how this works. There are all manner of redirects on this site, we do not use them as signposts for what content should be on the target of the redirect. Smallangryplanet (talk) 10:41, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Un-vandalized version of this article

A version of this article that is free of vandalism is available at https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_inversion Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 01:24, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[i353-1] Heller, Mathilda (2024-11-24). "Montreal coffee chain terminates contract with woman videoed doing Hitler salute". The Jerusalem Post. Retrieved 2024-11-24.

[b853-2] Lapin, Andrew; Berman, Lazar; Fabian, Emanuel; Fabian, Emanuel (2024-07-26). "Graffiti in Norway of Anne Frank wearing a keffiyeh sparks outrage". The Times of Israel. Retrieved 2024-11-28.

[a893-3] Silverman, Ellie (2024-11-10). "D.C. police investigating shattered windows at kosher restaurant". Washington Post. Retrieved 2024-11-29.

[v776-4] Pacchiani, Gianluca; Berman, Lazar; Fabian, Emanuel (2023-09-17). "Palestinian professor who took students to Auschwitz: Holocaust denial imperils peace". The Times of Israel. Retrieved 2024-11-28.

[x338-5] Berman, Lazar (2023-09-07). "US antisemitism envoy and EU denounce Mahmoud Abbas's speech: Distorts the Holocaust". The Times of Israel. Retrieved 2024-11-28.

[s048-6] "Translating the Holocaust: Building Bridges of Understanding in the Arab World (Arabic Event)". Program on Extremism. Retrieved 2024-11-28.

[o849-7] "S3E1: Interfaith Dialogues and Addressing Antisemitism". Acast. 2024-11-04. Retrieved 2024-11-28.

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