Talk:Dunstan

961

I noticed the date 961, when Dunstan became archbishop of Canterbury, is inconsistent with the article 960. So I checked other websites, but there is no consensus - 1 said 958, 6 said 959, 12 said 960, 5 said 961, and although some left the year out, none said anything like "about 960" - they were all sure. The history of this page is that it was changed from 960 to 961 by "Harry Potter". Art LaPella 22:15, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Well, from the research I just did it seems that most agree that it was 960. The discrepancy it seems comes from the fact that there were a series of either incompetent or somehow shortlived archbishops between 957 and 960, a period where therefore a few sites conted that Dustan exhibited more control and should be called the start of his "reign." I would say though that 960 is the better year to call the official start of his tenure. RShnike 01:27, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I think you mean 960 not 560. Art LaPella 02:13, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I did changed it thanks.--RShnike 01:37, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

There has been no further comment, so I just changed it to 960. Art LaPella 20:49, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Dunstan was made ABC in 959 and traveled to Rome to recieve the pallium from the Pope the following year. His reign shound be dated from hiss elevation in 959. -- SECisek 00:23, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Popular culture

None of this has anything to do with this article:

• In the Dark Horse Comics series Hellboy by Mike Mignola, the legend of St. Dunstan is referenced in the story Box Full of Evil (a two-issue tale included in the graphic novel The Right Hand of Doom). The story is embellished upon so that not only did St. Dunstan pinch the devil's nose with tongs, he also hammered the devil's head on an anvil before sealing him away in a box. A thousand years later, in the present day, the box and its key are recovered by the scam artist Igor Bromhead, who opens it. In doing so he unleashes its captive devil Ualac, a minor demon of Hell who covets Hellboy's Crown of the Apocalypse.
• In Robertson Davies' novel Fifth Business, at the prompting of his lover, the protagonist changes his name from "Dunstable" to "Dunstan" Ramsay based on the saint's life and personality. Ramsay is meant to personify Saint Dunstan in the novel, especially considering the saint's meeting with the Devil.
• Manly Wade Wellman often made reference to St. Dunstan in his stories. His occult detective character Judge Pursuivant carried a sword cane with a silver blade forged by the saint. A later character, John Thunstone, had even closer connections to the character. The name "Thunstone" was meant to evoke "Dunstan."

--SECisek 22:29, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't see why this shouldn't be included in the article. He was a popular saint, and shows up in popular culture. It's not as though this information is particularly more irrelevant than any 'in popular culture' section. It's not a list of miscellaneous items. That said, nothing wrong with making them less lengthy. Thoughts? Geno-Supremo (talk) 16:47, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Catholic Encyclopedia

There are several paragraphs in the body of this article that are reproduced almost verbatium from the public domain Catholic Encyclopedia. This needs to be cleaned up. -- SECisek 03:25, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I have some other material to add and I have to make cites, but it probably getting close to "GA" class. -- SECisek 09:14, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Churches dedicated to St Dunstan

I question the value of this material - listcruft in this article:

• Saint Dunstan Orthodox Church of Poole, Dorset, UK
• St Dunstan's, Mayfield
• St Dunstan's, Stepney
• St Dunstan-in-the-East, London
• St Dunstan-in-the-West, London
• St Dunstan's East Acton, London
• St. Dunstan's, Auburn, AL
• St. Dunstan's Church of the Highlands Parish, Shoreline, Washington
• St. Dunstan's Episcopal Church, Madison
• St Dunstan's Parish, Fredericton, NB, Canada
• St Dunstan's, Canterbury , Kent
• St Dunstan's, Toronto, Ontario, Canada
• St. Dunstan's Basilica, Charlottetown, PEI, Canada
• St. Dunstan's Episcopal Church, Waitsfield, VT
• St. Dunstan's Episcopal Church, Atlanta, GA
• St. Dunstan's Anglican Church, Camberwell, Victoria, Australia
• St. Dunstan's Episcopal Church, San Diego, CA

-- SECisek 16:57, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

GA candidate

Really rather more should be included about his artistic activity. Although attributions cannot be firm, the consensus seems to be that he was quite a significant artist, with several surviving manuscript illuminations, including what is probably a selfportrait (kneeling below a large figure of Christ). I've not managed to find a version online, but there should be one somewhere. Johnbod 17:57, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I DID find this image last week, but I was uncertain if it could be used due to C-right issues: [1]

I also agree that more could be speculated (with credible citations) about his artistic legacy. That said, I think this article goes into enough detail for GA. When the day comes to take this to FA perhaps that area of his legacy could expanded. Again, I think this is GA. If I thought it was the best it could be, I would have put up for FA instead. -- SECisek 18:11, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Actually I missed the bit I partly did myself, so I think the art is covered ok. This is GA standard, though it would be nice to get the selfportrait. More diversified and modern sources, and some work on the style, would improve it further. Johnbod 18:17, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Further. Well done! - you can use the pic, because under US (and German) law it is public domain because of its age, & WP has its servers in those countries & does not regard UK law as applicable. The bottom is cut off, but I would certainly use it. Are you able to crop to just Dunstan? Johnbod 18:17, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes and yes check back in a few. -- SECisek 18:20, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

That's great. I would make it the main pic, as at the least it is a contemporary portrait, but up to you. It gives a rather different image from the art nouveau one. Johnbod 18:46, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the info box pic is clearly fanciful, but I am inclined to leave it as is for now. The self portrait I think serves the page best in the context of the article. That said, if somebody else feels strongly about this by all means be bold. -- SECisek 18:53, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

It's always best to upload pics to Commons btw, and include as much detail as possible, so other people can identify & use them. Johnbod 18:56, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Can you point me to details on how to do this? -- SECisek 19:15, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The basics (I don't find their help very helpful):Either pick up Commons from the bottom of the main page, or from the "description page" link on any image file from Commons in an article. Its best to set up an ID, but you can repeat your WP one, & password. Then hit "upload" at left. Any medieval 2-dimensional painting/drawing qualiies for the "painting in PD because of age" licence. add a link to your source & as much detail as possible (within reason). Also try to add Commons categories to the image, so others can find it. It would be good to have the uncropped image there too, so why not practise on that? It should at least go into the C10 illuminated MS category. Johnbod 10:39, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I got it loaded but couldn't find the category you mentioned. It is under cat:saints for now. Oh, if you think this is GA can you score it as such? -- SECisek 11:01, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Search on "illuminated manuscript" & its a sub-cat of that. I have edited the article so can't pass it. No doubt someone will turn up eventually. Johnbod 11:26, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Found the cat. - done! Thanks for the Wikicommons lesson. -- SECisek 11:34, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

GA review

I have taken on Dunstan for review under the Good Article criteria, as nominated on the Good article candidates page by Secisek. You'll be pleased to hear that the article meets none of the quick-fail criteria, so I will shortly be conducting an in-depth review and will post the results below.

Where an article is not an outright pass, but requires relatively minor additional work to be brought up to GA standard, I will normally place it on hold - meaning that editors have around a week to address any issues raised. As a precaution to prevent failure by default should this occur, if editors are likely to be unavailable over the next ten days or so, feel free to leave a message on my talk page so we can arrange a more convenient time for review. Regards, EyeSerene^TALK 09:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Lets begin the work!!! -- SECisek 18:04, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

GA on hold

I have now reviewed this impressive article under the six Good article criteria, and have commented in detail on each criterion below:

1 Well written FAIL on MoS; see below

1.1 Prose

The prose is generally good, flows logically and is pleasant to read. There are a few parts that might benefit from a minor copyedit to improve the flow (some paragraphs consist of lots of short sentences with no transistions that come across as rather abrupt), but not to the extent of a GA fail.

1.2 Manual of Style

The article complies with the MoS in its style, and is well-wikilinked to add depth. Headings and citations follow the correct format (and templates are use for the references, which although not a GA criteria is a nice extra touch!). Only one minor point here:

* The accepted section order is: Article body; See also; Notes; References; Further reading; External links. The See also section needs relocating to fit this order. Done

2 Factual accuracy PASS

The article is well cited, and makes good use of reliable secondary sources. I found no evidence of original research.

3 Coverage PASS

The life of St Dunstan is very comprehensively covered, and the article remains focused throughout.

4 Neutrality PASS

The article is written from a neutral point of view, and contains no evidence of bias.

5 Stability PASS

The article history shows no instability or evidence of recent edit-warring.

6 Images FAIL

All images used are appropriately captioned. However:

• Image:Eadwig.jpg has a depreciated copyright tag that needs to be updated Done

As a result of the above minor concerns I have placed the article on hold. This gives editors up to a week to address the issues raised (although in some circumstances the hold period can be briefly extended). To help with tracking, editors may like to strike through each comment as it is dealt with, or use the template {{done}} after each comment.

Feel free to contact me if you have any questions or are ready for a re-review. In any case I'll check back here in seven days (around 27th August). All the best, EyeSerene^TALK 10:15, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Nitpicking:

• "The king ordered him to leave the court" ... the last king mentioned is Æthelstan, but in fact this happened after Edmund became king.

I looked at it and it SEEMS correct. Dunstan gets almost booted twice: Aethelstan kicks him out (which I beieve is refered to by you. Edmund almost throws him out until he has the incident with the cliff. Are you confused or am I?

• The section on Eadwig ("Changes in fortune") is misleading regards Edgar (historians are less certain than this article that there was an open revolt...) and fails to mention that "Ethelgive" (Ælfgifu or even Elgiva) became Eadwig's wife.

If you feel you can correct the POV go for it. The material I used is cited. There is no mention in the Eadwig article about his marriage, so I didn't feel it would be worthy of mention in Dunstan's.

• Dunstan was one of the key figures in C10th Benedictine reforms in England, but the article doesn't bring this out at all.

Perhaps you missed these passages:

His work restored monastic life in England and reformed the English Church....Dunstan, now abbot of Glastonbury, went to work at once on the task of reform.[1] He had to re-create monastic life and to rebuild the abbey. He began by establishing Benedictine monasticism at Glastonbury.[6] That the Rule of St. Benedict was the basis of his restoration is not only definitely stated by his first biographer, who knew the Dunstan well, but it is also in accordance with the nature of his first measures as abbot, with the significance of his first buildings, and with the Benedictine leanings of his most prominent disciples.[3]

Dunstan's first care was to rebuild the church of St. Peter, rebuild the cloister, and re-establish the monastic enclosure. The secular affairs of the house were committed to his brother; Wulfric, "so that neither himself nor any of the professed monks might break enclosure."[3] A school for the local youth was founded and soon became the most famous of its time in England...The count of Flanders, Arnulf I, received him with honour and lodged him in the Abbey of Mont Blandin, near Ghent.[3] This was one of the centres of the Benedictine revival in that country, and Dunstan was able for the first time to observe the strict observance that had seen its rebirth at Cluny at the beginning of the century...With their aid and with the ready support of King Edgar, Dunstan pushed forward his reforms in the English Church.[1] The monks in his communities were taught to live in a spirit of self-sacrifice, and Dunstan actively enforced the law of celibacy whenever possible.[8] He forbade the practices of simony (selling ecclesiastical offices for money) and ended the custom of clerics appointing relatives to offices under their jurisdiction. Monasteries were built, in some of the great cathedrals, monks took the place of the secular canons; in the rest the canons were obliged to live according to rule.

More?

Of course, I may be being too picky. Angus McLellan (Talk) 11:43, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

No, you are not too picky, I hope I have addressed your concerns.

I've changed the article slightly regarding Edmund/Athelstan. I will try to go through the article and reference it to, e.g. Lapidge's "Dunstan" in the Blackwell Encyclopedia of Anglo-Saxon England. I'd still like to see more on the Benedictine reforms...I'll see if I can do something there. I think there is stuff in Campbell's Anglo-Saxon State which is relevant, and there are five and a bit pages on Dunstan and monastic reform in Blair's Introduction to Anglo-Saxon England.

Stubbs' Memorials of Saint Dunstan, while the documents are in Latin, has a lengthy introduction in English. Rather tatty scans can be downloaded from Gallica (link to download page). On that point, the article doesn't try to explain how we know what we know about Dunstan. A section on the various lives, and other sources, would be useful. I was surprised to find out while googling that there is an Icelandic Dunstan's Saga. But perhaps this kind of thing is for Featured Article Review. Angus McLellan (Talk) 13:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Are you certain about Edmund sending him away both times? Am I confused? Are these the same event? All other changes are great!!! -- SECisek 14:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I fixed that, eventually! The attempted drowning was indeed in the reign of Athelstan. I have Lapidge's "Dunstan" article from the Oxford DNB, and it says:

“ Dunstan came to the attention of King Æthelstan, and became a member of the royal court. At Æthelstan's urging, Dunstan was ordained priest and professed as a monk by his kinsman, Bishop Ælfheah. But Dunstan's membership of the royal court was short-lived: his self-righteous piety so aroused the envy and enmity of his colleagues there (including some of his own kinsmen) that he was thrown into a muddy pool and was lucky to escape with his life. ”

There's lots of interesting stuff in the DNB article. Angus McLellan (Talk) 15:54, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

GA pass

Congratulations on an excellent copyedit on the suggestions provided. I have now passed Dunstan as a Good Article, and listed it as such on the Good Articles page under Philosophy and religion > Religion, mysticism, and mythology > Religious figures and leaders. For the record, Secisek, Angusmclellan and Wassupwestcoast contributed significantly to this GA pass (with five or more major edits in the last 50).

Well done all! EyeSerene^TALK 19:37, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

ARTICLE UNCRITICAL OF DUNSTAN'S FLAWS

I suggest that there are several failings due to a largely uncritical acceptance of Christian orthodoxy and in particular the Catholic Encyclopedia.

Sir Francis Palgrave - an otherwise quite credulous Christian apopolgist- refers to Dunstan as being "partially insane" in that he would see visions that nobody else could & would today be called psychotic- such as the devil laughing at him from the arch of his monastery as he was forced to flee, quite apart from the devil appearing to him disguised as a woman or a wolf or snake.

The role of Dunstan and Odo in the persecution of Queen Elgiva is understated. Elgiva was within exactly nine degrees of consanguinity of Edwy, for which reason the marriage was annulled. She was also his foster sister and the sister of Aethelweard the Historian. Edgar also married the daughter of his foster father, Athelstan Half-King, to whom he was related in exactly the same degree. Elgiva was disfigured and sold into slavery in Ireland, where they took pity upon her and she returned to England to find Edwy once more but was ambushed and murdered. edwy died shortly after in circumstances which have never been explained. In the accession of Edgar, Dunstan attained such a position of dominance that he was de facto King of England- which hwe was by heredity as senior direct descendant of King Ethelred I. Given this position it is impossible to believe that the shameful treatment of Edwy and Elgiva were not by his knowledge and consent.

Dunstan showed his dominance by refusing to allow King Edgar to be crowned until he had reigned for seven years as penance for murdering his foster brother in order to take his wife- somewhat more serious an offence than Edwy's pecadillo.

Dunstan's championing of the Benedictine cause, and celibacy of the priesthood and displacing of married priests, split the country almost to the point of civil war, since armed followers of Bryhtnoth turned out to protect the monasteries in East Anglia.

The incidents at Calne and other places were not Witans but Synods and preceding the debacle at Calne, Dunstan had claimed before a hostile audience of priests that a crucifix had spoken in his support and this was a miracle. The priests however exposed this as ventriloquism on Dunstan's part. The meeting at Calne was unusual in that it took place indoors and on an upper storey prompting the suspicion that the collapse was due to Dunstan's men removing the supports, killing several priests in the process.

In Dunstan's favour he would have made a better king had he not been a priest. His de facto reign was the high point of Anglo Saxon culture. A campaign of wolf eradication was carried out and in order to stop fights in pubs by men who shared pint pots, Dunstan decreed they should be marked into quarters- thus inventing the gill- which shows a concern for the minutiae of working class life.He was a renowned metal smith and actually made the Crown of England himself (probably not the first as Athelstan had been sent a diadem as a gift and this is referred to in the account of Dunstan's row with Edwy as "lying on the floor"). What happened to it we do not know, but King John lost his baggage in the Wash (not the laundry but... well you know)around 250 years later & it was probably in it. He is one of the most fascinating characters in English history and pivotal in the Anglo Saxon period for good and ill, but I think he deserves a more rounded assessment than the orthodox hagiography. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Streona (talk • contribs) 15:03, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

If you have suitable sources for this, why not write it into the article? There's some interesting stuff here ;) EyeSerene^TALK 16:32, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes! Be bold, but please cite any new material. Some of this I was aware of but did not feel it was relevant, some of it adds a welcome POV to the existing material, and some of it is new. Please add and cite! -- SECisek 16:53, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I was a bit reluctant to muck up the GA article without some kind of permission. I will have to check the sources to cite them which may take a bit more time (I am impressed the swiftness of your replies)Streona 08:37, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry

Sometime ago I put in ad edit that Dunstan was the grandson of King Ethelred I, which was reverted as I did not source it. Recently I began to work on this point and found that the article with my edit in it was copy & pasted on to Wiki Answers and I cannot remove it.

Basically the argument is thus- Dunstan's uncle is given as Athelm, Archbishop of Canterbury in the Catholic Encyclopaedia, from Vita Dunstani and his father as Heorstan and his other uncle as Alfheah the Bald. The sons of Ethelred were Princes Aethelwald and Aethelhelm. Aethelwald was passed over in favour of his uncle Alfred the Great and fought Alfred's son Edward the Elder in 901. He threw in his lot with the Danes and his son was named after the Danish leader Hastan- in English Heorstan. If Prince Aethelhelm was the same as Athelm, the Archbishop and Heorstan was the same Heorstan as was Dunstan's father, then Dunstan was the grandson of Ethelred's eldest son. Heorstan must have been as popular an English forename as Adolf after WW2, so how many could there have been, especially with uncles- or rther greatuncle's called Aethelhelm ? Athelm is said to have been a monk of Glastonbury, local to Dunstan, but Prince Aethelhelm had a son, Aethelthyrth. However this is not impossible as it seems likely that after the debacle of Aethelwald's rebellion, other family members would take up the cloth to eliminate themselves from the running, until the fuss had died down and then left their vows behind. Before Dunstan's Benedictine reforms clerical vows were very lax and Alfheah himself had a son when Archbishop.

This is important as it gives a new perspective to the career of Dunstan. Quite clearly his ecclesiastical career was very much fast-tracked by his connections and eventually he exercised even greater than Royal authority- regarding Edwy and Edgar. Just who did he think he was? And that is the question- maybe he thought he was the King of England. The identification of Heorstan and Athelm is not confirmed in PASE but it seems suggestive. Whadya think guys? Can we ever be sure? This would also indicate the relationship between Dunstan and Edric of Washington and Athelstan Half-King- the respective foster-parents of Edwy and Edgar. I know that Angus was not impressed with the King Ethelred-King Harold connection, of which I suppose this is a sub department.--Streona (talk) 23:48, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Edgarobv.2.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 19:45, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Infobox used in this article

I have no idea what the attributes parameter in the {{Infobox Archbishop of Canterbury}} is meant to be, but it initially looked to me to be "alt" text for consumption by screen readers. On investigation I discovered that this template doesn't yet support an alt parameter, so I've requested that one be added here. When it is, the present attribute text can easily be copied aross. --Malleus Fatuorum 15:42, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

DUH. Attributes is the "symbolism" of the saint. It's the heraldry/icons associated with the saint. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:46, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Is the text correct then? Still seems to me to be "alt" text describing the picture. FYI, I came across this article during a GA Sweepa reassessment; obviously it still meets the GA criteria, and I'll update the article history to say so. --Malleus Fatuorum 15:57, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Honestly, I think so, but am not sure. That sort of information is kinda hard to source, and I'm on the road anyway so my books aren't here with me, so call it good. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:19, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Dunstan and bells

Hi all - while creating the article clock chimes, I found a little cache of Dunstan info in the lovely book Church Bells of England. Full text available on the internet archive - I don't have time to add any here, but perhaps someone else will!

--Vivisel (talk) 23:41, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Dunstan's uncle(s), bishop(s) of Winchester?

This is a relatively minor point but I am confused about Dunstan’s family on his father’s side. In the 3rd sentence of the “Birth” section it states that Dunstan’s "father Heorstan was the brother of Athelm, the bishop of Wells and Winchester". This means of course that Athelm was Dunstan's uncle. Later, under the section “School to the king's court” in the last sentence of the second paragraph, it states that Dunstan “journeyed to Winchester and entered the service of his uncle, Aelfheah, Bishop of Winchester". The wiki entries for these two clearly describes them as two different men. Therefore, it appears that Dunstan had two uncles both of whom served as Bishop of Winchester. However, stating unequivocally that Aelfheah was Dunstan's uncle may be inaccurate because his wiki entry says only that he ". . . MAY have been a relative of Dunstan". Perhaps the confusion comes from the fact that there are different citation for them, Green and Toke. Or what is also very possible: I am missing something. Terence (talk) 16:41, 30 November 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Terence (talk • contribs) 16:36, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

This article relies far too much on old and doubtful sources. Athelm was Archbishop of Canterbury, not Bishop of Winchester. I have corrected Dunstan's birth and relatives based on the most reliable source, the DNB entry for him, but the whole article needs updating. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:06, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 9 February 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian (talk) 18:30, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

---

• Dunstan → Dunstan of Canterbury
• Dunstan (disambiguation) → Dunstan

– Britannica uses "Saint Dunstan of Canterbury" but MOS:SAINTS says "Saint" is generally not preferred if the title without it is available but otherwise Saint Dunstan of Canterbury can be used. Also I'm not convinced that there's a clear primary topic for just "Dunstan" per views, Dunstanburgh Castle getting 1,188, Chestnut getting 16,604 compared with 2,590 for the saint[[2]]. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:05, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

• There may very well be no primary topic here, but the numbers being cited here aren't useful for determining that -- it is one thing to argue that, say, the page views of someone named "Bill X" should be considered when looking at a primary topic for "William X," but looking at the entire page views for chestnut as a 1:1 comparison here because there is a Dunstan chestnut is just silly. Likewise for Dunstanburgh Castle, which is on the DAB page in the see also section but isn't a reasonable factor in considering what we should have for the base name Dunstan.--Yaksar (let's chat) 19:49, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. Dunstan is clearly the primary topic. A clear indication of this is that most of the entries on the disambig page are named after him and the other ones are all obscure. As Yaksar says, the castle name is a different word. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:40, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. This is the primary topic, per above. He gets 100+ times any of the other actual "Dunstan"s. Johnbod (talk) 01:07, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per above. Srnec (talk) 16:17, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Unreliable sources

This article relies heavily on unreliable sources, especially Toke's 1909 article, and I have marked it accordingly. Dudley Miles (talk) 07:33, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

oritur is possibly orator.

He had gifts in language, such as writing, and could extend to speaking too. Historyghecko (talk) 07:23, 24 December 2023 (UTC)