Talk:Janae Kroc

Requested move 4 August 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Jenks24 (talk) 14:24, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

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Janae Marie Kroc → Kroc – This person is mostly known for being the author of the "Kroc row" which only involves the shortening of the birth Kroczaleski surname, now the legal surname of Janae Marie. Even though JM is now the legal name, this person is not predominantly known by this name so we should not use it. Much like professional wrestlers (ie Test (wrestler) not "Andrew Robert Patrick Martin") we should refer to them by their most well known moniker, which is simply "Kroc", which also happens to be brief and easy to spell page name. Ranze (talk) 02:44, 4 August 2015 (UTC) --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 03:02, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Well, you've got Ray Kroc to compete for the primary redirect. Randy Kryn 1:27, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

  Good point @Randy Kryn: although I'm not sure if Ray is commonly referred to as just "Kroc" as Matt traditionally has, a natural result of naming a movement after a shortening of your surname. Now that this is the legal surname and fans want something familiar yet correct to use, just "Kroc" is going to be even more popular than before. Is it possible to have Kroc (disambiguation) to link to Ray and anyone else who might have the surname while using "Kroc" as the main article? A lot of literature still uses the name "Matt Kroc" on many videos and web sites so I think this is the most inclusive way to do it without prioritizing either Matthew or Janae. Although JM has been making the news in the past week, I have to question in terms of long-term notability if it was established enough to warrant this move. We tend to go by popular name over legal name, to use pro wrestlers, actors or musicians as an example. Am thinking "Kroc" is Matthew Kroc / Janae Kroc's popular name whereas am not getting this impressive of Ray. Ranze (talk) 05:40, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

  There's already a disambiguation page at KROC - this could be moved to Kroc or a separate page created there for the surname - it looks like there's no primary topic for the name. Peter James (talk) 23:29, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

  How about 'Kroc (wrestler)' so the name is used but it doesn't take away from the radio call letters or Ray Kroc's page. Randy Kryn 13:17, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

  Kroc isn't a wrestler. 64.228.91.73 (talk) 17:10, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

  Duh, I meant 'Kroc (weight lifter)', my mistake. But how about that title? Randy Kryn 22:22, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

  Bodybuilders also train with non-weight resistance bands, but I guess weights are the greatest aspect of distinction. How about (powerlifter) ? There is also the (author) aspect, parenthesis is messy for the multi-faceted. 64.228.91.73 (talk) 17:18, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Books

When I search Matt Kroc, the google wikipedia preview includes some details I don't see:

Spouse: Lauren Kroczaleski

Books: Insane Training: Garage Training, Powerlifting, Bodybuilding, and All-Out Bad-Ass Workouts

Children: Garrett Kroczaleski, Maxx Kroczaleski, Logan Kroczaleski

Siblings: Chris Kroczaleski, Kurt Kroczaleski

I understand the lack of necessity for displaying family (though I wonder if spouse/kids have also shortened surname), but shouldn't we keep the list of the books up? Ranze (talk) 03:18, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Self editing

Regarding Special:Diff/488943491 is there any evidence if this was actually the article subject making the edit, or possibly an impersonator? Seems like a sole-purpose editor. Ranze (talk) 03:20, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Removed line

most well known for mental toughness, work ethic, training intensity and ability to overcome adversity

I removed this because it wasn't sourced, and doesn't seem like something you actually COULD source. I personally first knew Kroc on the surface because of the 'kroc row' and writing articles for T-Nation. Although more thorough fans learning background info may appreciate the toughness/ethic/intensity/adversity stuff, that does not seem like the 'most well known for' attributes, but rather, personal opinions formed by long-term analysis of people who take more than a surface look, and most people do not do thorough looks, so complex opinions would not form the basis of what a celebrity is well known for. That'd be like saying that Jericho is most well known for saying "I'm from Winnipeg you idiot!". Sure, all the Jerichoholics know that line, it's a great tidbit that many of the most hardcore finds find memorable, but it isn't what he's most well known for. Ranze (talk) 03:52, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

genderfluid versus trans woman

So I located this Facebook post where Kroc identifies as being "genderfluid" and "transgender" but I am wondering if Kroc has actually used the term "trans woman" or "transgender woman" self-referentially.

Does anyone have a source to support the use of this label?

The FB post I cite above does include certain tags which I understand some take to suggest this:

• girlslikeus
• m2f
• mtf

But it also includes this tag:

• nonbinary

The term "genderfluid" on wikipedia redirects to the genderqueer article. I expect 'fluid' is preferred as it seems a bit less pejorative than 'queer' does (identifying with flexibility rather than strangeness) so I think it is right to use it here. This definition of the 'fluid' term is on the GQ article though:

"moving between genders or having a fluctuating gender identity"

Due to this, I wonder if we can phrase it in some way where it is like "also a trans woman" rather than "only a trans woman". I suppose 'came out as a trans woman' is kind of neutral, but I feel like it hugs the former more than the latter, and I think we should phrase this in some way to indicate the fluidic aspect which is different from the traditional "I only identify as a woman" type stuff like what we see with Caitlyn Jenner recently.

In this case, it seems like Kroc identifies as both simultaneously. Based on that, I would recommend avoiding pronouns altogether, as Kroc has stated a rejection of binary, so simply saying 'Kroc' where needed avoids that. Ranze (talk) 04:06, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Reddit as reference

Came across a couple interviews:

• November 2011: https://www.reddit.com/r/weightroom/comments/mtzfg/iama_i_am_powerlifter_bodybuilder_and_allaround/
• August 2013: https://www.reddit.com/r/weightroom/comments/1kghjj/im_matt_kroc_i_lift_heavy_things_got_some/

If it is possible to verify the identity of the poster, could these Q&As possibly be used as references? Ranze (talk) 08:03, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

What The Hell Is Going On Here?

This article is a HOT MESS! Every sentence starts with "Kroc" and NEVER or attempts to constantly hide behind her last name instead of using the pronoun she prefer which is SHE/HER! Now, I had to do a lot of hard work over at Caitlyn Jenner's page to get some decency over there, thankfully this article I can edit and thus I will. You all can thank me for the trans-friendly article later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 (talk) 05:11, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

"the pronoun she prefer which is SHE/HER!"

Any sources on that? I mean like, actually from Kroc, not just HuffPo flavour text. 184.145.18.50 (talk) 19:14, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Matt is a bloke, in case you had not noticed... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.98.223.84 (talk) 14:48, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

I so agree with this. The amount of misgendering and deadnaming in this article is the mark of significant bias against Janae. Can y'all contain your petulance? Especially the person commenting right above me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:647:CB01:B99B:6E:7EDB:5C38:F520 (talk) 05:29, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Pronoun Change

I found a |credible news source that cites that Janae prefers feminine pronouns so I'll be changing them shortly. Moira98 (talk) 05:28, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

I call into question how credible that claim is. There is no direct statement provided from Janae in that, only a claim by some editor guy that she prefers them. Whereas everything else Janae said is that it doesn't matter if you're boy/girl, that no label is more suitable than transgender/genderfluid, that she would identify more strongly as female "if forced". Saying "prefer" is far too strong for such a stance, it's in fact misleading and misrepresents what is being said.

This 10 November 2015 article is about the caliber of research one would expect from someone who keeps repeating this claim:

Last year she came out and prefers the female pronoun, but doesn’t identify as trans and isn’t undergoing any sort of gender reassignment therapy or surgery.

Janae has identified as transgender since July and announced the beginning of hormone therapy in September. So if someone makes those kinds of mistakes, I view "prefers the female pronoun" as more such rumor-parroting without adequate fact-checking. 184.145.18.50 (talk) 19:12, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

the Moira edit

Special:Diff/696593229 is a concerning change, so much was altered in that one edit that it is difficult to follow what was altered. Generally if you are going to move a section it is good to do just that in one edit, and then save other changes in separate edits so the changes can be easily compared. 184.145.18.50 (talk) 14:02, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Twitter

Came across https://twitter.com/janaekrocc but not sure if that is her... https://twitter.com/JanaeKroc seems like a better candidate. Is there a way to report imposters? 184.145.18.50 (talk) 16:57, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Pronouns and retweets

disclaimer: in case these rants leads to some kind of sock-puppet accusation, I am Ranze (above) logged out because I don't like to log in on another person's tablet.

For those pushing the "Kroc prefers female pronouns" narrative (still waiting on a reliable "from the Kroc's mouth" cite on that, not just HuffPo speculation) consider that Kroc retweeted the following things on Twitter after coming out:

• August 11: @MattKroc and his awesomeness
• August 14: Good for him. One of my idols, hope he's happy

If Kroc objected to the use of male pronouns, why would he re-tweet messages which used them?

For that reason I think there is absolutely no problem at all using male pronouns in the article where appropriate, namely for anything pertaining to 2014 and earlier when Janae identified as Matt, as a male.

Still very confident that Janae has explained it is okay to use male pronouns when presenting as male. Still looking and will share the URL if I can find it, but until then I think the fact that Matt retweeted those messages shows comfort with male pronouns allowing us to use them freely without fear of offense.

I'm all for avoiding he/him from 2015-2016 though in respect of the change to a female name. Since Matt is now Janae, female pronouns would be appropriate for the portion of the article discussing THAT period of time.

Like for example "he wrote for Muscle and Fitness" (pre-transition) and "she appeared in the 2016 Muscle and Fitness" (post-transition).

Kroc presenting as female for almost the last year does not make it appropriate to discuss Kroc pre-transition as being female. This is contrary to Kroc's wishes. If there is any preference to be described as female it is clearly only in present-tense to things post-transition, not 'for all time' as some people seem to think. 184.145.18.50 (talk) 17:49, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Still trying to find where this statement was. August 23 I mentioned "Janae has expressed desire for pronoun use appropriate according to the time of presentation" but before that August 10 I mentioned "Kroc has stated a desire for people to use pronouns according to the presented gender" so what I'm looking for is something pre August 10 that likely came out during the height of the newstorm from July 27 - August 9. I couldn't seem to find hints on either Twitter but while Janae's new Twitter mirrors her new Instagram post, I don't know a text-presenter for Instagram prior to that, and can't seem to find her Janae FB which was referred to (only the Matt Kroc facebook) so I think the statement I remember seeing might be on pre-September Instagram or Janae's FB which might be hidden now. Will keep digging because I just know if I find it that what she said, if still visible, would utterly resolve everything. 184.145.18.50 (talk) 20:29, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

purported open letter pronouns

I came across this 29 July 2015 claim:

She used female pronouns to refer to herself in an open letter about her transition

The words "open letter" are a clickable link pointing to http://gymflow100.com/bodybuilder-matt-kroc-comes-out-as-transgender/

While that page does include a letter from Janaeadded July 27th, I read it and I do not see any female pronouns used in it. If I am overlooking this, can someone please quote a sentence for me? I can't figure out how to highlight the text to copy it here but you would only have to type out a small portion to quote to convince me. I am still able to search it via the 'find' function just not highlight it.

Given that our so-called reliable source from Aug 1 is the deputy "Queer Voices Editor" and the above July 29 claim is on "GayWrites" this makes me wonder if this is a chain of influence here. Did the QueerVoices column simply take GayWrites' claims for granted about this letter? Did it not bother to read the letter and check it to see if it really did contain female pronouns? 184.145.18.50 (talk) 19:33, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Did some further digging and found this July 30 archive of the July 27 letter. Upon a second read I did happen to notice ONE use of a pronoun:

living as a transgender woman being honest about her situation is very difficult

I am not able to find a SECOND instances so that still makes the plural use of "pronouns" inaccurate. Also, saying "her" once hardly is a statement of preference. There is a huge difference between referring to yourself one way and preferring to yourself to yourself that way.

So even though GayWrites is HALF write (only one use of a female pronoun, not multiple uses) the jump that QueerVoices made is unjustified. An isolated use of a female pronoun is not a reliable source to make assumptions about people's preferences.

When viewed in a larger scope: Kroc was not making any universal declaration of pronoun preference in that letter. By using "her" in that sentence, it referred to living as a woman, so it made sense to use that gender of pronoun in that context.

In other contexts (such as when Kroc is living as a male) it would make sense to use male pronouns, like when describing Kroc as a boy, Kroc as a Marine, Kroc as a world record setter, Kroc as an author pre-2015, etc. Kroc has not made any statements about pronoun preference for Wikipedia or for the past, the only evidence here is an isolated use of "her" which GayWrites/QueerVoices have run with and exaggerated. 184.145.18.50 (talk) 19:40, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Juice Jenner

on 28 July 2015 you can see that Janae responded on Facebook to someone suggesting this nickname with a LOL and a smiley face. That does not sound like being offended, would this qualify as an endorsement to mention this name on the article? Or would it require noteworthy reiteration? 184.145.18.50 (talk) 20:22, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Syndromes

This 29 July 2015 post mentions a couple:

"It is not as simple as X and Y chromosomes. Please look up Klinefelter's Syndrome (XXY genes), androgen insensitivity syndrome, and intersex conditions for starters."

Not surprising that Kroc is aware of this stuff considering the college degree and pharmacist license, but it's not something you see often among celebrity athletes, would something like this be noteworthy mention, like "Kroc has drown attention to X and Y" ? 184.145.18.50 (talk) 20:50, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Surname pronunciation

Was just listening to the interview at http://www.roverradio.com/watch/interviews/item/2734-transgender-champion-bodybuilder-janae-marie-kroc-full-interview and at 14:10 the interviewer pronounces it KROK-ZALESKI and comments that he hopes he is pronouncing it the right way.

Janae interjects and she pronounces it what sounds to me like KRAW-JALESKI. Something like the CZ in Kroczaleski is pronounced like the letter J?

I am wondering if anyone else could give a listen to how Janae says it and see if you agree or disagree. I think we do pronunciation guides on Wikipedia for difficult to pronounce names sort of like how Wiktionary does for all their words but I am not sure how to do it since I don't understand the symbols for sounds too well.

If we wanted to include an audio clip of Janae pronouncing the name from this interview I guess we'd probably need permission from Rover Radio to use it or something? 184.145.18.50 (talk) 21:21, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Flyer response

@Flyer22: replying to Special:Diff/704487447.

In respect to gender pronouns, I am not saying that the Huffington Post editor was lying, just that the writer of the article appears to have jumped to a conclusion, because the claim that Janae could universally prefer one pronoun over the other is in conflict with Janae's statements about being gender fluid and this being the 'best' label for describing her. Of being "forced" to choose one to identify with.

You mention "interviewer" but I think that's inaccurate. The August 1 HuffPo article is by JamesMichael Nichols. Although he opens with "The Huffington Post chatted with Kroc this week" but as pointed out July 30 at https://www.instagram.com/p/5xb_JWNClm/ which linked to http://huff.lv/1KvXHew which redirects to http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/segment/55b77beefe34442ade000017 at ~20:30 Janae was interviewed by Josh Zepps. I listened to the whole thing and Janae never states any pronoun preferences.

If the Zepps audio interview does not contain it then it would have to be something in the Nichols writeup 2 days later.

But that actually includes questions/answers and I read it all and nowhere in that does Janae state any pronoun preferences.

The claim that Janae prefers female pronouns appears in the FOREWORD to the interview, as in it is Nichols establishing a setting before actually interacting with Janae. As I pointed out, days prior to this another source made the inaccurate claim that she "used female pronouns" in an open letter (she actually only used one, "her", once) so it is probable that Nichols just took this GayWrites claim for granted when constructed the QueerVoices foreword. Whatever the explanation (another being that pretty much everyone is using female pronouns at present because Janae is presenting as female in all of these interviews) Nichols' claim of her preference is not supported by any of the actual statements Janae made to Huffington Post nor in any other interviews or open statements I have found from her.

In fact they, as explained, contradict statements about gender fluidity and of being "two people in one body". These are not statements from someone who universally prefers one set of pronouns.

Even if you won't throw out the Nichols' preference claim, I would propose that "prefers female pronouns" is made as a situational statement. It doesn't necessarily mean "Janae wants you to call her "she" when she is dressed as a man and calling herself Matt". It simply means "we think Janae prefers female pronouns when presenting female as Janae" which I entirely agree with.

The problem is that this Nichols' claim is being used as a basis to replace ALL pronouns with female ones, even ones when Kroc was a young boy, serving as a marine, competing in powerlifting, writing articles for BB.com/T-Nation/EliteFPS.

Nichols' claim that Janae prefers female pronouns should not change the pronouns from male to female when discussing these previous times when Janae identified as Matt and presented as male. Basically because that claim did not indicate any retroactivity. It was spoken in the present tense, "while preferring female pronouns". So it is only talking about her actively preferring pronouns in that present time, not any preference to rewrite the history of Matt with "shes" and "hers".

In interviews, Kroc refers to Matt and Janae like they were seperate personas, actually using the third person "he" and "her" for them.

As for the other issue, while they are not secondary/tertiary sources, I think Facebook and Instagram can serve as reliable primary sources pertaining to basic statements coming from Janae. This appears to be a major means of communication for the article subject and many of the sources in this article reference these things. So long as we can affirm from a reliable source that this account is owned and operated by Janae I think it should be able to serve to support basic statements so long as we avoid anything else like interpreting them, which would require secondary sources.

https://www.instagram.com/janaemariekroc is referred to by "World champion bodybuilder and former Marine reveals on Instagram that she's transgender". where it is directly linked to in a hyperlink in the "Instagram" in the phrase "her new Instagram page".

https://www.facebook.com/MattKroc is referred to by "Matt Kroczaleski: World champion powerlifter reveals gender change in heartfelt Facebook post". because the opening image is a clickable link to this Facebook post.

These articles don't merely link the Instagram/Facebook, that Janae used these websites is literally in the titles of the article. I think this should serve as vetting them, as affirming they are statements from her, and we should be able to use statements from those accounts to confirm additional details here. 184.145.18.50 (talk) 13:48, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

I reverted you here stating, "Facebook is not a WP:Reliable source. Neither is Instagram. And we don't state 'a Huffington Post editor claimed' unless there is a valid reason to believe that the interviewer was lying. See WP:Claim." I reverted you again, stating, "Once again, unless there is a valid reason to believe that the interviewer is lying, there is no need for such wording. Perhaps make your case on the article talk page? Should we take the matter to WP:BLP noticeboard?" I stand by those statements. The next step would be to bring the WP:BLP noticeboard into this. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:49, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Occasionally, the official Twitter, Facebook or Instagram page may be validly used as a source here at Wikipedia, but not usually. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:50, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

@Flyer22: you did not address what I brought up above. Even if the Nichols article was 100% accurate, the statement you put back:

"she said prefers feminine pronouns"

is not supported by the Nichols article statement:

"Kroc is sharing her story as someone who, while preferring female pronouns, says she feels both hyper-masculine and hyper-feminine"

This is why I changed the statement in the article to:

"she was described as preferring feminine pronouns"

This is neutral and doesn't assume the description is a self-description.

The phrasing in the Nichols article is too ambiguous to read it as solely meaning "Janae says she prefers female pronouns."

Authors of articles can make evaluations of reality on a basis other than purely what people say about themselves. They may make that evaluation based upon "well she is using a female name and is dressing feminine, so OBVIOUSLY" or on some other basis.

The phrase "preferring female pronouns" is used BEFORE the verb "says". The verb only clearly applies to "she feels both hyper-masculine and hyper-feminine".

WPFP is an extension of the opening "Kroc is sharing her story", it is what the Nichols is saying, not what Kroc is saying.

The two commas interrupt a sentence which would otherwise be this if ommitted:

Kroc is sharing her story as someone who says she feels both hyper-masculine and hyper-feminine.

Basically the "while preferring female pronouns" part in the middle, separarated by commas, is not clearly attributed to Kroc, so we should not make the error of OR by doing that attribution. When I read that, I read that as Nichols' evaluation of Kroc, not Nichols quoting Kroc, because if he was quoting her he would have included it after "says" which clearly is an opening into paraphrase. 184.145.18.50 (talk) 01:03, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

The source stating that "Kroc is sharing her story as someone who, while preferring female pronouns, says she feels both hyper-masculine and hyper-feminine" is the source supporting the statement that she prefers feminine pronouns. I addressed your point by noting that unless we have a valid reason to believe that the source is lying about Kroc preferring feminine pronouns, we should not be questioning it. Sources also note that Ruby Rose prefers feminine pronouns, and we report that in the Ruby Rose article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:35, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

@Flyer22: the issue is how we are conveying this. There is a difference between saying "Supergirl prefers pizza" and "Supergirl said she prefers pizza". Even if that did serve as a reliable source that female pronouns were preferred, it would not serve as a reliable source that Janae actually made a statement to that effect.

Please stop saying "lying". I have never accused the writer of lying, just not painting the entire picture, and people drawing false conclusions from misreading it.

Basically, the preference for female pronouns exists - situationally. As in not universally. As in: female pronouns are preferred when presenting female, but not while presenting male.

I just included a source of the recent Muscle and Fitness interview with Janae. Her own words might help convey what I'm talking about:

“It’s funny. Whenever I see pictures of Matt, I always thought he looked small,” she says. “Whenever I see Janae, I think I look huge. I wish I had come to terms with this earlier in life. I’d look a lot better.”

Janae is completely comfortably using the male pronoun "he" to refer to "Matt", to refer to herself when she presented as male in the past, so I think we should be as well. Any possible female pronoun preference only applies post-transition not pre-transition.

The problem here is that this vague "prefers female pronouns" claim is being misintrepreted as "well we better use "she" universally throughout the article, using "he" would be offensive to Janae" which as we can see above, is wrong, because Janae herself uses "he" to refer to her past as Matt. The M&F article also uses male pronouns extensively and Kroc has voiced no objection about that.

Or PRESENT for that matter, being gender fluid, Janae stills trains male as Matt. 184.145.18.50 (talk) 01:49, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Stating that Kroc prefers feminine pronouns, whether it's a "Kroc prefers feminine pronouns" or "Kroc said she prefers feminine pronouns" matter, is simply reporting what the source stated. It's not misinterpreting the source or WP:OR. I suggest you seek WP:Third opinion on this since I still stand by my statements on this matter. Also, pinging my old username does not work, but I don't need to be pinged to this talk page since it is on my watchlist. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:19, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

I definitely prefer the first, there should be no "said she". Not because I object to "she", but because I object to "said", as the Nichols article's phrasing is not clear that the description of preference originates with a direct statement from Janae or "research" by Nichols. Sorry about the -Reborn thing, for some reason it didn't register to me. It's cool, like Matt Sydal.

For now I will only minus the SS since you have stated above that "Kroc prefers feminine" is "simply reporting what the source stated". It's a step in the right direction.

I would like to propose though that "prefer" be modified by additional statements, though, to clarify the context of that preference.

Since AFTER the August article by Nichols, Janae uses a male pronoun ("he always looked small") to refer to Matt, her on behavior has indicated that it is acceptable to use male pronouns to refer to her past as Matt. So since this is now the more up-to-date reliable source (per MOS:ID) her own words in the October M&F article should take priority over Nichols' words in the August H-P article.

Changing "prefers" to "preferred" could be too drastic a step though. After all, I believe Janae would still prefer feminine pronouns while presenting as Janae. It's just a conditional preference: as we see, she uses male pronouns to refer to Matt, who she still alternates as being, as a gender fluid individual. The "prefers" was describing Janae's preference. That is only one aspect of this article's subject. The way it works is:

• Janae prefers feminine pronouns
• Matt prefers masculine pronouns
• Kroc prefers to use male pronouns for Matt and female pronouns for Janae

I've expanded the opening notes to explain the MOS:Gender identity policy more verbatim, the old interpretation, and this updating one reflecting Janae's use of male pronouns in M+F when referring to Matt. 184.145.18.50 (talk) 17:48, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

I reverted editorializing and personal interpretation here and here. It is not for us to interpret what pronouns she prefers; it's for us to directly follow what the sources state. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:47, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

@Flyer22 Reborn: in the summary you mentioned "No editorializing. Unless she says she uses does that, we don't." could you rephrase that?

Anyway following what the sources state (Matt Kroc is a HE, per Janae Kroc referring to him that way in October) I think that fulfills the "unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise" criteria. Using male pronouns herself when referring to her past is such an indication.

Let's keep in mind that "unless the subject has indicated" is a modifier to this original instruction:

should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification.

The "latest expressed gender-identification" for her past as Matt is "he" while obviously the LEGI for her present as Janae is "she". Unless Janae starts referring to Matt as "her" we have no over-ride since the October interview to trump this. 184.145.18.50 (talk) 21:17, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

That's you interpreting. And, again, no need to ping me. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:18, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Considering the August Nichols' claim in HuffPo to be Janae's LEGI is an interpretation. I don't see why considering the October Janae quote in MusFit the LEGI should be singled out as an interpretation. The difference here is that AugustHP is some interviewer making a vague claim about pronoun preferences (NOT about gender identity, mind you, even the Nichols article acknowledges Janae says she feels hyper-masculine, gender fluid, alpha male) before conducting an interview while OctoberMF is a direct expression of gender identity from Janae using male pronouns. It is the most current and shows she does not prefer them 100% of the time: she uses a male pronoun to refer to Matt, and that's the example we should follow.

Janae says "I am very complex and don't fit into any of the boxes that society squeezes us into". Only using female pronouns throughout the article and treating her as some run-of-the-mill "I only consider myself female" transwomen is putting her into one of those boxes. Kroc is gender fluid, she still presents as a male sometimes, presenting as female has not involved abandoning male presentation or pronouns.

Nichols' outdated article does not override Janae's LEGI where she uses male pronouns, M+F is her LEGI for Matt: "he". This isn't OR it's literally what a gender identity expression is, a direct expression from the subject of the article. A claim by another person about the article subject is not an expression of gender identity because the expression does not originate with the article subject. LEGIs cannot be an analysis from a third party it has to be a direct expression. 184.145.18.50 (talk) 12:36, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

There is no proof at all that the interviewer engaged in interpretation by stating that Kroc prefers feminine pronouns. There is proof that you have engaged in interpretation and WP:Synthesis at this article, which is why I am very likely to take this matter (your edits to this article in general) to the WP:BLP noticeboard. I told you that my opinion on how that source's commentary regarding the feminine pronouns aspect should be relayed in this article will not be changing; that is why I clearly suggested WP:Third opinion to you. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:12, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

You're rehashing issues I've left behind already Flyer, I understand you have great faith in Nichols. I actually don't really see anything wrong with it, much as I do lack faith in its origin.

My first point is simply that Nichols' statement is speaking about Janae (the female persona) preferring female pronouns, since that is who the interview is with.

Kroc lives as both genders, so Janae preferring female pronouns should not be taken as Matt preferring them. Sources consistently convey Kroc's statements about living life with both genders. I just added one to the article (which also happens to support the Instagram you keep disputing) since the meaning of "gender fluid" clearly is not getting across here so I imagine a lot of casual readers wouldn't understand it either.

My second point is that an article published August 1st is no longer the LATEST expressed gender identification, now that we have an October interview where Janae uses a male pronoun in an expressed gender identification when speaking of her past.

Even if I one accepts the premise of the August Nichols' description as the LEGI at the time, the October Muscle and Fitness interview is later, over 2 months later.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm getting the impression of you saying this:

• Nichols describing Janae as preferring female pronouns in August is her latest-expressed gender identity.
• Janae describing herself in the past tense using the male pronoun "he" in October is NOT her latest-expressed gender identity.

Is this right or am I not understanding your rebuttal here? 184.145.18.50 (talk) 20:30, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

I know what genderfluid means; I also pointed to Ruby Rose as an example of a genderfluid person who goes by feminine pronouns; she also identifies as a lesbian. My point, which should not need to keep being reiterated, is that we can only go by what the sources state. We cannot engage interpretation of the sources or what Kroc meant, as doing so would be a WP:Synthesis violation. You can add WP:Reliable sources about what Kroc has stated about her gender identity, being genderfluid and so on, but you cannot synthesize any of the material; for example, you cannot use any of the material to combat other material based on your feelings about what Kroc is okay with, is her latest gender identity, what pronouns she prefers, and so on. I will not continue to debate these matters with you. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:41, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

Pinging Clpo13 and EvergreenFir, who also have experience with gender identity matters on Wikipedia and perhaps are willing to weigh in on this. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:45, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

:) so just mentioning names pings now? Is template:ping pointless now? Although it still takes fewer chars to type. I guess the thing is that Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Gender_identity tells us to use latest expressed gender self-identification. When I read "self-identification" to me that sounds like "the subject must say it themselves." Nichols saying Janae prefers feminine pronouns is not a self-identification because that is other-identification. Janae's own use of pronouns is self-identification.

So the August/Nichols source fails to be "latest" and it fails to be "self". It is only EGI (expressed gender identication) not LEGSI. The October/Janae source is latest and self-description. 184.145.18.50 (talk) 00:02, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

I pinged the two editors above by mentioning them and linking their usernames. For a WP:Ping to work, one must link the username with a fresh signature. The two editors decided not to comment for whatever reason. As for your argument, this is likely my last reply to you on this gender issue: The aforementioned guideline states, "Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources." In other words, if reliable sources state that a person self-identifies a certain way, we go by those sources with the assumption that their information is correct...unless it is clearly shown that the sources are incorrect. You have not shown that Kroc does not prefer feminine pronouns (and, please, there is no need to quote to me again what she stated). We go by reliable sources because that's how the WP:Reliable sources guideline works. Granted, whether or not the The Huffington Post is a reliable source has been debated here at Wikipedia. Either way, Kroc did an interview with that publication, and she has not stated anything about that publication having misrepresented her views. Caitlyn Jenner has referred to herself as Bruce and by male pronouns when speaking of how she used to present herself; when she does that, it's clear that she's separating that identity/persona from herself and/or is talking about her past life. It clearly does not mean that her latest gender identity is "male/man." Furthermore, preferring feminine pronouns does not mean that a person is any less genderfluid; this is why I noted Ruby Rose. The Genderqueer article, which is where genderfluid redirects to, is very clear about the different types of genderfluid people. A person sometimes presenting as male does not mean that the person does not prefer presenting as one sex/gender more than the other or does not prefer feminine pronouns. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:27, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

(184.145.18.50 replying signed in today) there's really three key guideline phrases in that section:

1. Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources
2. reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification
3. any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise

Each of these has action words, verbs: "designate" - "express" - "indicate". When "prefer" is used in preference in the 3rd, it is in the context that we know for sure the SUBJECT (not another party) has indicated that.

Technically the Nichols statement is describing emotions (preference) not the literal act of self-designating. It is also being used in the interview with Janae, not with Matt, and Kroc is shown in sources to speak of them as different people and use different pronouns when describing each.

unless it is clearly shown that the sources are incorrect. You have not shown that Kroc does not prefer feminine pronouns

"Prefer" is not a key term for MOS:ID, as can be seen above in the 3 numbered excerpts from the policy page, the key is designate/express/indicate. We go based on 1st-party statements not 2nd-party feeling-descriptions.

Whether or not Janae preferred it or not, she made the choice to use a male pronoun to refer to Matt in the Muscle & Fitness October interview. That is the key event here. That is the indication of preference: a use of male pronouns to refer to Matt-phase.

Female pronouns still make complete sense to use for Janae-phase though, I want to be clear about that.

In using "he" to refer to Matt in the October interview, that is a designation/expression/indication. This is the LEGSI, the latest-expressed gender self-identication.

she has not stated anything about that publication having misrepresented her views

It didn't misrepresent her views, the problem is we are drawing unfounded conclusions from what Nichols wrote. Nichols was only reflecting that Janae (Kroc presenting female, the interview subject) prefers female pronouns, which is true.

Nichols didn't say anything about preferring female pronouns for Matt or for when describing her past.

The Muscle & Fitness interview (and its afterword) by Tuthill CONSTANTLY uses male pronouns to describe Matt and Janae's past. November 12 Janae thanked him for it, and she also retweeted the original October 6 tweet prior to October 12. So she hasn't accused them of misrepresenting her views either.

Caitlyn Jenner has referred to herself as Bruce and by male pronouns when speaking of how she used to present herself; when she does that, it's clear that she's separating that identity/persona from herself and/or is talking about her past life.

Cait doesn't ID as gender fluid though to my knowledge, nor am I aware of Cait stating things like she's "living in both genders" or self-describing as "feel like two completely different people trying to share one body with both fighting over who gets to be in control".

We shouldn't just treat Janae as a swole Jenner... what holds for one doesn't hold for the other.

It clearly does not mean that her latest gender identity is "male/man."

I wasn't arguing that at all, Janae's latest gender identity for JANAE is female, that is not the latest gender identity which she assigns to Matt though. Matt's latest gender identity has always been male, and Janae's choice of pronouns (as well as those of Tuthill, who has gotten way more endorsment from her than Nichols) shows this. Male is the LEGSI for Matt, female is the LEGSI for Janae, the article is about both of them.

preferring feminine pronouns does not mean that a person is any less genderfluid

I don't think I argued it did. But preferring female pronouns is a statement given in context of an interview with the female name/presentation. I think it's OR to extrapolate as that also applying in context to Janae's past as Matt where she opts to use male pronouns (leading by example) and endorses the use of male pronouns (Tuthill) for describing the past.

A person sometimes presenting as male does not mean that the person does not prefer presenting as one sex/gender more than the other or does not prefer feminine pronouns.

I find it believable that Janae/female is the most common presentation lately, she certainly seems to be who all the interviews have been with. I also find it believable that Janae prefers (to refer to her, as Janae) female pronouns.

There is no indication though that Janae wants female pronouns used to describe Matt or the past in the military/powerlifting/writing though.

There is every indication that Janae wants male pronouns used, since she used them herself and heaps praise on Tuthill when he used them continuously throughout his article. I'll quote them for impact here:

1. his suburban Michigan home
2. his custom gear
3. he would drape
4. his shoulders
5. The price he paid
6. his squat sessions
7. His particular brand of contest prep
8. he could lose 35 pounds
9. he’d wear
10. his car
11. weight he didn’t lose
12. his bathroom
13. he drove the temperature
14. He’d go in
15. his makeshift sauna
16. he hit his target
17. he could gain
18. He didn’t just survive
19. he got on the lifting platform
20. he set the powerlifting world record
21. plates he needed for his deadlifting
22. he dropped the weight
23. his shift from powerlifter to bodybuilder

Past this point, the article shifts from discussing Matt's past to Janae's present and begins to use feminine pronouns. Janae's praise for this article (and her own use of "he" for Matt/past) is clearly the "the subject has indicated a preference otherwise" exception to the "any phase of that person's life" instructions. Ranze (talk) 17:47, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Now that I know you are Ranze, I will state that you should have signed in from the start. Why were you editing as an IP? By calling me "Flyer" and "Flyer22," I knew you were familiar with me. As for your points, I still disagree. MOS:IDENTITY is clearly about going by what the subject prefers, which is why we treat the matter that way in all of our articles. And nowhere did I state that we should treat Kroc's case the same exact way we treat Jenner's case. I stand by what I stated above. I'm not sure why you are continuing this discussion with me when I've made it explicitly clear that I won't be changing my mind, but I will now be posting about this at the WP:BLP noticeboard. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:22, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

I took the matter to the WP:BLP noticeboard, as seen here, but I see that you already did, and did not alert me to that fact. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:51, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

And, yes, I saw that you explained there at the WP:BLP noticeboard why you were not signing in. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:13, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

I wish I could but it's like a hassle to throw in the step of signing in and out when I'm constantly flipping between this and watching TV, I'm trying to minimize wear and tear on the keyboard.

MOS:ID isn't clearly about preference, it's about latest behaviour, although it's sorta moot since latest behaviors tend to mirror latest preference. Nichols only shows us Janae prefers female pronouns as Janae, not preferring them for her past, her preference for using male pronouns to refer to her past is shown in her own words and her endorsement of Tuthill's work in October.

Answering you is for the benefit of getting in my arguments when you make closing points, even if you don't reply, you and others may read it. If would not continue to reply to you specifically if all you said in closing is "I will no longer be replying" or simply did not reply at all. But if you make closing points, they will get rebuttals if I disagree with where they lead.

What do you mean I didn't alert you? I thought I pinged you... does Ping not work if you initially screw up the name? Ranze (talk) 19:25, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

All that I have to state on the matter is seen above and at the WP:BLP noticeboard. Like I noted at that noticeboard, you keep "pointing to MOS:IDENTITY, citing [your] interpretation of it, and talking about how Kroc is genderfluid and that her quotes indicate to [you] that we should treat Kroc as two different people when it comes to Kroc's life as a man as opposed to Kroc's life as a woman. In other words, we should only use feminine pronouns when referring to Kroc's womanly side." MOS:IDENTITY does not support that, and I highly doubt that you will find consensus on doing that type of thing with this article, especially considering the confusion it will cause to readers. As for rebutting me, it is mostly needless repeating on both of our parts. Your interpretation of MOS:IDENTITY is odd to me, and I will not be supporting it. You can, of course, rebut this reply, but I won't be responding to you here in this section again or at the WP:BLP noticeboard about this issue. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:38, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

And, no, that ping did not work; I told you above: "For a WP:Ping to work, one must link the username with a fresh signature." It does not work after you have already signed a post. Adding in a link after the fact is not a ping. Pings work with a new signature. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:45, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 13 February 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Unopposed request. Number 57 21:29, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

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Janae Marie Kroc → Janae Kroc – per http://www.muscleandfitness.com/athletes-celebrities/news/transgender-powerlifter-janae-krocs-first-photo-shoot the exclusive Muscle and Fitness shows it acceptable to drop the middle name. People also are prone to getting the wrong impression our current page title is the full legal name, M+F interview also makes it clear surname is still Kroczaleski. Using middle name does not seem necessary if nobody else shares name and a reliable source has referred to the person without it. See also Caitlyn Marie Jenner -> Caitlyn Jenner also doesn't use the middle name. 184.145.18.50 (talk) 11:01, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Oh yeah in interest of transparency (ie not socking) I nominated an earlier Aug 4 move while logged in which did not reach consensus. Which is probably a good thing since I didn't know about Ray Kroc and he might also be referred to as that. Particularly since Raymond Albert Kroc's surname actually appears to be natively Kroc rather than it being a shortening from dropping -zaleski.

As further support of simply "Janae Kroc" instead of "Janae Marie" is that https://twitter.com/JanaeKroc (I think established September 2015 or so) is used as a Twitter handle. You can also see a lot of fans discussing her will casually drop the middle name just like her Twitter handle and Muscle & Fitness have:

• July 28 T-Nation thread
• October 6 SideScrollers thread

There is also http://generationiron.com/janae-kroc-sets-the-record-straight-on-her-transgender-lifestyle/ which refers to her as just Janae Kroc minus the Marie in the title. Enough weight exists in recent presentations to allow for JK to be used over JMK as at least an equally common name and certainly the more concise one. 184.145.18.50 (talk) 14:43, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Stated weight

Although I did locate a cite for the heavy weight listed here earlier, this was at the end of the year after setting the 220lb record (which did not necessarily mean Matt weighed 220, just some amount underneath that) which meant a gain of at least 35 pounds in under 8 months. I figured if we are going to retain that as the heaviest-known mass we should also include the under 220 as the record-establishing mass. I added 240 as the most recent reference I could find from the October 2015 interview with Health and Fitness. I don't know how accurate that is currently though. In this 18 January 2016 Instagram post she says:

After dropping 70lbs i became frustrated with dieting and the strength loss. Because of those reasons and a few others i took a break and regained 41lbs.

The only trouble is... while I can do the math of -70 + 41 = -29 result, I am not sure what the baseline weight is for it. Like "dropping 70lbs" since when? Since being 255? Since being 240? Since something else?

I feel like the answers to this might be found in reading training logs in further detail, but I'm not sure where to find them just yet. Her Instagram homepage mentions http://www.janaemariekroc.net/ at the top but when I visited I got this:

Fatal error: Call to undefined function get_header() in /home/janauvls/public_html/index.php on line 1

If anyone notices the site is back up or finds some other source of a more current bodyweight than 240 @ October, please update w/ cite. I don't want to be offensive by listing a higher-than-current weight since Janae has spoken about wanting to lose it. 184.145.18.50 (talk) 16:17, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

whether or not to call the current record holder

The very same website we use as a source to establish that Matt set the 220pound record with 2,551pounds on 25 April 2009 is also the site which says it was surpassed 21 August 2010 with 2,715pounds by Shane Frankl, the same guy who held the record in 2009 when Matt broke it.

However I noticed a lot of 2015 stories about Kroc do not reflect this and speak as if Janae still held the record:

Kroc – who is the all-time world record holder in the 220-lb. class for her 1,003-lb. squat, 738-lb. bench press and 810-lb. deadlift (People.com)

Does this qualify People as a less reliable source compared to others who do not make this assertion since they did not report the record status accurately?

Others are a bit less assertive by not directly making the claim, but kind of insinuating it indirectly

According to her website, Kroc is "a world champion and world record holding powerlifter (HuffingtonPost.Com)

While this is true that the site does say that in the present tense, that site is kind of notorious for lacking updates. Although the earliest update I could find for the "about" page is 6 March 2012 the site has been parked since 28 September 2008 (this goes on until 2011). Although the site is down from every crawl I can find prior to August 2010, it is plausible the 'about' page was written then, PRIOR to the record being broken, and just hadn't been updated. It's possible that Matt simply didn't know that the record had been broken, or didn't remember everywhere that 'holding' the record was spoken of in the present tense to amend it.

Others are more conservative and used the past tense though with "set"

When competing as Matt “Kroc” Kroczaleski, Marie set the the all-time world record in the 220-pound class in 2009 (NationalReview.com)

The more recent interview in Muscle + Fitness speaks of setting the record in the past tense though:

In 2009, he set the powerlifting world record in the 220-pound weight class, squatting 1,003 pounds, deadlifting 810, and benching 738 for a staggering three-lift total of 2,551

as does an August 2015 podcast (McDonald, Jim (26 August 2015). "PowerCast #107 - Kroc Talks: From Matt to Janae Marie - Guest: Janae Kroczaleski".) description:

A world record holding powerlifter. A successful pharmacist. A competitive bodybuilder. A transgender woman named Janae Marie. Matt Kroczaleski was all of these things.

(the verb "holding" is present-tense but it is modified by "Matt was" making it past, which is true since it seems Matt did hold it over 15 months (unless there is some other intermediate total between 2,551 and 2,715 which I've overlooked?) before Shane exceeded it.

a September 2015 podcast (Ritchey, Nick (10 September 2015). "Mighty Cast 142: Janae Marie Kroczaleski Interview". GetMightyNow.Com.) speaks of it in terms of the year:

Matt Kroc was about as alpha-male as you can get considering his: * All-time powerlifting world record holder for the 220lb class in 2009

This appears to be true since the only evidence I have of Kroc's record being broken is from August 2010, so that means for the majority of 2009 (late April to December) until we know otherwise, Kroc held this record. I could see a problem in calling Matt "powerlifting world record holder for the 220lb class in 2010" though. I suppose January-July (7 months) does make Kroc the record-holder for the majority of 2010 as well though... I have only confirmed the guy who won it back would have held it August-December 2010. 2011-2016 would be off-limits entirely though since I don't think Kroc held a record in any of those years. I would certainly drop the phrase "All-time" which Ritchey uses though.

I think because everyone else appears to be consistently using the past tense and only People used the present that not holding the record as of 21 Aug 2010 should be acknowledged when mentioning this record so people are not misled by articles like People which claimed Janae held it presently at the time of their article's publication. 184.145.18.50 (talk) 18:29, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Ann Arbor vs Grand Ledge

I was just sorting through categories and noticed a discrepancy. The template says "Residence: Grand Ledge, Michigan" while there is a "Category: Sportspeople from Ann Arbor, Michigan". I think I was the one who added Ann Arbor but I don't remember adding Grand Ledge... will have to dig the history to see who added what, but it'd probably be good to add a cite to settle it if there are mixed ideas about this. 184.145.18.50 (talk) 20:40, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

the mysterious 2nd facebook

28 July 2015 the MattKroc account wrote "you can follow me on Instagram @janaemariekroc and my Facebook page can be found under my friends list on facebook under Janae Marie". Since news sources have verified the MattKroc FB as belonging to Kroc I was trying to find this 2nd one as well as another possible source. Unfortunately I can't seem to figure out how to locate friends lists. Am I incompetent or is it just hidden or something? 184.145.18.50 (talk) 20:38, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

(184.145.18.50 signed in here) After using the search engine and recognizing the picture, it appears it might be https://www.facebook.com/melissa.m.moore.56 but I don't think this could be used as a reliable source until some other source refers to it, which I don't remember seeing so far. The strange URL doesn't exactly help to clear up matters, seems to be the name of some obstetrician/gynecologist in Florida, but "Janae Marie" is displayed when you visit it and her pics, and refers to the already-confirmed Instagram account. There's also no reliable way to archive Facebook posts that I know of so it would require relying on quotes supported by "access date" testimonies if the URL ever went down or post got deleted.

The best explanation I can think for the strange URL is that it has been active since at least 2012 (I do see a "Posts from 2011/2010/2009" at bottom but nothing is loading...didn't there used to be pages on FB accounts giving the exact date of account creation? can't seem to find...) so since that was before coming out in July 2015 it may have been an alias chosen to keep it separate? Ranze (talk) 16:34, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

possible Inside Edition interview

Been looking for additional interviews in case any had good info for building the article. 11 September 2015 Janae said "my segment on Inside Edition is airing today" and said to check their site for times/channels. I tried searching Janae but got no results, going to see if I can find something specific to that day... maybe they don't have online summaries of everything. 184.145.18.50 (talk) 20:56, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

alleged retirement

I removed that since I didn't see any quotes from sources reporting it. Seems like OR until we can confirm a statement regarding retirement. Can anyone provide that? Changed to 'previously competed as' since it's been a while since the last BB/PL meet. Not having done it for a while doesn't necessarily constitute retirement. We wouldn't say 'retired writer' just because it's been some time since an article was published. Ranze (talk) 18:06, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Self identification for female pronoun

Previous discussion on this page appears several years old and based on stale sources. The most recent interview I have found for Kroc is a live interview on Reddit in late 2017 link. In that interview she states:

"As far as how to address me (and this can be different for everyone) I prefer the name Janae and female pronouns at any time but when I present as male (or a gender blurry version of male these days) many of my male friends and family still refer to me as Matt and use male pronouns and while I don't prefer it I'm not offended by it either. I have always been easy going and if it makes it easier in that situation then whatever. The only thing that would make me uncomfortable would be to be referred to as Matt or have male pronouns used when I'm clearly presenting as female.

Several other sources published in 2018 with reviews of the biopic "Transformer" have quotes from Kroc and consistently seem to use female pronouns. Link1, link2

On this basis, unless there are more recent reliable sources with contradictory first person statements about her self identification, I propose that we support rewriting of the article using her current preferred female pronoun and removing gender pronouns entirely where this may improve readability and avoid confusion. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 15:47, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

That quote doesn't support your proposal. She stated that she does not object to the use of male pronouns when she is presenting as male, which is the case for all the pre-transition periods of her life. I don't object to removing gendered pronouns (unless it makes the sentence flow super awkward), but I don't think we should be proactively changing the gender on pronouns for a subject that explicitly stated that she is not offended by it. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 17:19, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Like I stated elsewhere, Kroc's article, with sources, currently states, "In July 2015, Kroc came out as both transgender and gender fluid. Janae is living as both genders, describing often feeling like two completely different people trying to share a body, fighting for control. After a solitary use of 'her' in an open letter (misrepresented plurally as 'pronouns'), HuffPo interpreted this as a preference. Janae has used male pronouns when referring to Matt in the past tense. Kroc has written of picking a gender to identify with 'more' in the context of hypothetically being 'forced' to." Those sources are from 2015 and 2016. Unless Kroc has come out and stated that she is no longer genderfluid, or no longer prefers to use the name "Matt" and masculine pronouns for her pre-transition life, we shouldn't assume that it's no longer the case. Again, the IP stated, "Kroc's pronouns are she/her, though she sometimes refers to herself in the past as 'he.'" That Kroc uses feminine pronouns for her true gender identity doesn't mean that she no longer considers Matt a different person/no longer uses masculine pronouns when referring to that person. The article also states, "In October, Janae referred to an interview where male pronouns are used to refer to Matt as 'one of my best interviews'. In the interview Janae mentions being 4 weeks into estrogen therapy, and taking a testosterone blocker." I don't oppose using feminine pronouns throughout, while still noting the other gender stuff in the Personal life section. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:21, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I believe there are no sources that say anything that does not completely support a self-id as a woman being consistently used since late 2017. Sources before that are going to be contradictory and we are never going to get Kroc specifically countering all her prior interview statements. At a minimum there seems plenty of grounds to ensure the lede text uses "she/her" not "he/him".

It would probably aide this article if someone could watch the Transformer film to see if that gives any insights into self-id. Being a documentary the film can be accepted as a form of interview. The LA Times article is quite convincing with this quote:

""It's taking everything I've got as a man to become a woman," declares Janae Marie Kroc (nee Kroczaleski), the subject of the remarkable documentary "Transformer." The film follows her journey as she sheds her old identity as Matt, a world record-holding powerlifter and bodybuilder, and steps fully into life as Janae. Directed by Michael Del Monte, it's an intimate portrait of a person reckoning with their past while preparing for the future."

The "steps fully into life as Janae" appears pretty convincing as to "Matt" being a deadname and identity, with her current self-id as a woman in late 2017 (year of filming) with the film being released in 2018. The fact that she may put up with being misgendered by her family, is not a rationale to risk being disrespectful of her current gender in a Wikipedia article.

Honestly, I would class any interviews before late 2017 as secondary to these later sources.

Update, striking some of my earlier words - If enough of the most recent sources seem to both have self-id as a transwoman but also as genderfluid, it might be reasonable to explain their genderqueer identity in the article based on the most recent interview quotes. This might be a reason to rewrite the text in gender neutral style. I feel slightly ambivalent about what style to adopt here, based on The Hollywood Reporter interview available on Youtube link. My impression is still that it would be a mistake to have "he/him" in the lede, and even in the lede we may benefit from mentioning genderfluid as well as transgender. --Fæ (talk) 18:11, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't mean to stomp on your discussion; I just made a bunch of changes to names and pronouns before I saw this conversation, but would be happy to change back if sources show that Kroc has some other preference. Cheers, gnu57 21:40, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Fæ, again, I'm stating that "unless Kroc has come out and stated that she is no longer genderfluid, or no longer prefers to use the name 'Matt' and masculine pronouns for her pre-transition life, we shouldn't assume that it's no longer the case. [...] That Kroc uses feminine pronouns for her true gender identity doesn't mean that she no longer considers Matt a different person/no longer uses masculine pronouns when referring to that person." I understand what you are stating by "we are never going to get Kroc specifically countering all her prior interview statements." But given how Kroc has previously clarified her gender identity and pronouns, it's very likely that she would be clear about never accepting masculine pronouns and the name "Matt" for herself ever again if it was the case. It seems safe to use feminine pronouns for her throughout the article, and to retain the pieces in the Personal life section about her using, or having used, masculine pronouns and the name "Matt" for her pre-transition life.

Genericusername57, regarding this, I think it's confusing for readers to mismatch like that. If we are to mismatch like that, we should clarify early on (in the lead) that Kroc has used masculine pronouns and the name "Matt" for her pre-transition life. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:57, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

Ok, no worries. I just thought it was odd to use female pronouns for Kroc in highschool, male in college and the military, and a seemingly arbitrary mix for Kroc's weightlifting career; I'd be happy with anything consistent and aligned with Kroc's expressed identity/preference. I agree that clarifying pronoun use early on would be good. Cheers, gnu57 19:12, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

Info box regarding sons

The article mentions 3 sons but the info box only mentions one.

There are numerous other problems with this article but after one edit I decided to leave it to others. One example is the mention of his weight as a high school freshman, then says "and, after graduating...". What does that mean? Was he still the same weight or is the later weight omitted as a typo? Arbalest Mike (talk) 16:50, 5 September 2023 (UTC)