Talk:Joy (dog)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by reviewer, closed by Launchballer talk 20:29, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

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• ... that Joy was the sole survivor of the Romanov family's execution? Source: Buxhoeveden, Sophie (January 1, 1928). The Life & Tragedy Of Alexandra Feodorovna, Empress Of Russia. A Biography. Longmans, Green and Co. ASIN B000YMJL86
  • Reviewed:

Created by Jacob0790 (talk).

Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has less than 5 past nominations.

Post-promotion hook changes will be logged on the talk page; consider watching the nomination until the hook appears on the Main Page.

Jacob0790 (talk) 23:54, 28 March 2024 (UTC).

Hook is definitely interesting, and article looks to be in good shape and first glance. ɴᴋᴏɴ21 ❯❯❯ talk 02:35, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Comment @Nkon21:, please check the nomination date. Article was created on March 2th but wasn't nominated until March 28th. While a week is a standard DYK nom timeframe (plus, a few days of leeway), 26 days is a harder sell. Per WP:DYKNEW it is ineligible for DYK and I don't seen anything in the revision history that supports a 5x expansion rational. 🏵️Etrius ( Us) 03:33, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Jacob0790, as noted by Etrius, this article was, regrettably, nominated too late to qualify for DYK; 26 days is well beyond what I've ever known to be accepted at DYK even for a first-time nominator. Should the article at some point become a Good Article (after nomination and review passage), please do nominate it within seven days of passage and it can run at DYK then. Thank you very much for your interest in DYK. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:25, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@BlueMoonset:, I took your advice and nominated the article for WP:GAN. Please review it and provide your recommendations. Thanks. Jacob0790 (talk) 00:24, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Jacob0790, it will be picked up by a reviewer there in due course. I don't personally review GANs. Best of luck. BlueMoonset (talk) 18:01, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

@BlueMoonset: I tried to renominate Joy (dog) for DYK, but got an error that it was a duplicate page. Would you please advise how to reopen my existing nomination? Thanks, Jacob0790 (talk) 22:27, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Jacob0790, the existing nomination should not be reopened. I don't use the automated nomination process, so I'm not sure how to get it to use a different a different page name, which is how it's supposed to work. Why don't you post a request at WT:DYK to see whether someone can shepherd the nomination through—there was some recent talk about a standard name for these second nominations, but I missed what the decision was. If you can't get any help there, I'll be happy to create a new page, though it will initially be a variant on your prior nomination (including the originally proposed hook)—you'd need to update it as appropriate to reflect your current thoughts as to hook and sourcing. Thanks for getting back in touch. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:46, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Joy (dog)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Jacob0790 (talk · contribs) 00:19, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Aintabli (talk · contribs) 04:15, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you Aintabli for your time and the link to the books. Let me read them through. If any helpful information is there, I will replace the links in question. Jacob0790 (talk) 18:26, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

This is a really interesting choice for GAN. Here are some preliminary notes I made:

• Medium is not reliable, see WP:MEDIUM. Please remove it. - removed it
• I guess this link leads to a book, but there are no page numbers.- This book is only available in electronic format on the RoyalLib website, and as such, it does not have traditional page divisions. Here is the link to the full text of the book: https://royallib.com/read/lukyanova_viktoriya/poslednie_angeli_na_zemle.html#0.
• I would steer away from using news sites as sources for historical articles. I could find several books that may be used to replace such sources in this article.- Thanks. I found a few of these books very helpful.
• Please remove blog sources like this one.- removed it
• I don't find Joy (dog)#Romanov family's dogs particularly relevant. At most, it can be a passing mention, but dedicating a whole section on dogs other than Joy goes outside the scope of the article. If it has not already been mentioned there, that information can be added to the articles of the other dogs' owners.- The main point of the article is to demonstrate that the miraculous rescue of the dog was due to his stable and resilient nature, unlike other royal dogs whose fates are also mentioned in the article and might not be understood out of context.
• It will take time to get to relatively minute details, but Latin species names should be italicized (specifically Canis familiaris in the infobox).- fixed it
• Please use {{circa}} in accordance with WP:CIRCA.- fixed it
• As a final note, I was unsure about quickfailing this article, because much of the sources might be a deal-breaker and require more time to work on. Aintabli (talk) 04:15, 27 April 2024 (UTC)- Thank you Aintabli for your detailed review. Please let me know if you have more comments or questions., Jacob0790 (talk) 03:05, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
• Can any of these be replaced with a better source? [1][2][3]... As per my point above, I would not use news sites as sources on historical topics. Or are their authors experts in their field? - Dear Aintabli, as you recommended, I replaced the links from news websites with links from books. However, I believe the news links were still valid. Firstly, they were secondary sources, and secondly, they demonstrated that the topic remains relevant today.
• For the online book, you can alternatively provide links (of that page) or page numbers specific to the digital version found on the website. Aintabli (talk) 23:19, 14 May 2024 (UTC) - Provided a link to the book's content. Thanks, Jacob0790 (talk) 05:36, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
• I'm sorry for the delay. This looks like WP:BLOG. Am I correct? In that case, it should most likely be removed or replaced with another source.- Replaced the link
• This appears a lot like Wikipedia, so it may not be reliable.- Replaced the link
• Could you move Routledge Library Editions: The Russian Civil War and Last angels on the Earth to the Bibliography and cite them like the rest of the references? I also suggest using Template:sfn in citations instead of manually linking the source.- Moved it to the Bibliography section I think you missed the second book. Aintabli (talk) 17:19, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
• The sentence explaining Joy's ancestry, and the paragraph it belongs to, would better be in the beginning so as not to violate the chronological order. Aintabli (talk) 03:29, 29 May 2024 (UTC)- Thank you, Aintabli, that was a good catch. Reordered.Jacob0790 (talk) 00:34, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
• Can't find a mention of Joy here. Would you also consider this RS? Aintabli (talk) 17:19, 1 June 2024 (UTC) - Here is the English translation of the extract from this article: "The first spaniel in Russia was precisely the main color - Dash of the Grand Duke Nikolai Nikolaevich, from which the black Russian spaniels of St. Petersburg originated." This source was a replacement of this link which looked like WP:BLOG.

  Dear Aintabli, please let me know if you have any more questions or comments. Jacob0790 (talk) 21:20, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

• Sorry for getting repetitive, but this appears to be self-published. Correct me if I am wrong. It may as well be removed or replaced with another source.- Thanks for catching this. That was the repost from the Hunting and Fishing magazine. I updated the link. Please also move all the other sources to Bibliography and cite them like all the other sources. (I think you have forgotten to do this for Last angels on the Earth.) Aintabli (talk) 00:10, 8 June 2024 (UTC)- Moved Last angels on the Earth to the Bibliography section.
• I highly urge you to use Template:sfn, because some of the references are not properly anchored to the Bibliography. Aintabli (talk) 00:14, 8 June 2024 (UTC)- Replaced all links with sfn tags
• Feel free to add ISBN, OCLC, doi, etc. to ease access to the publications. Aintabli (talk) 00:21, 8 June 2024 (UTC) - All books have clickable ISBN or ASIN identifiers but Lukyanova's book which was published in the electronic library.
• Apparently I missed this, but please remove the references in the lead and make sure that the lead does not introduce any original information not mentioned in the body. It should be a summary of the major points and so does not need references per WP:LEAD. Aintabli (talk) 21:30, 16 June 2024 (UTC) - my bad, removed them. Jacob0790 (talk) 21:45, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Spotchecks

• Joy became the main evidence by which the marauder was discovered by the investigation of the White Army. During the interrogation of Letemin, it was found out that on July 22, 1918, he took 79 items from the Ipatiev House to his home, previously belonging to the Royal Family. He took the dog of the heir Alexei, Joy, "out of pity." No mention of 79 items in the source. он унес из Дома Ипатьева к себе многие вещи, принадлежавшие ранее Царской Семье Aintabli (talk) 00:10, 8 June 2024 (UTC)- Actually, it was 78 items taken including the dog. I added a note.
• I am going to ask you for some quotes from the sources to verify the following quotes from this article:

• Alexei had a deep affection for Joy, a relationship that was well-documented and familiar to the Russian public. Joy frequently featured in official photographs, commonly seen either being held by Alexei or sitting at his feet, highlighting the close bond between the Tsarevich and his pet despite his health challenges. Among his close friends of the same age, he had only Kolya, the son of Doctor Vladimir Derevenko. - From the source: Alexei's close playmates were Derevenko's sons along with Nikolai, 'Kolya', the son of Dr Vladimir Nikokaevich Derevenko.
• Alexei suffered from hemophilia and could not play with other children for fear that a simple bump or scratch could prove fatal, so he spent most of his time with his dog in the garden or on walks. They were rarely apart.- From the source: Except for one thing - Alexei had a disease called hemophilia, which caused this blood to not clot, so even a paper cut could cause him to bleed out.
• On July 17, 1918, the final Imperial family of the Russian Empire — former Tsar Nicholas II, his wife Alexandra, their children Olga, Tatiana, Maria, Anastasia, and Alexei, along with three servants and a doctor — were shot and bayoneted by soldiers of the Red Army in the basement of the Ipatiev House in Yekaterinburg. Alexei, the boy born to rule all Russia, died aged just 13. (Please remove just here.) -"just" was removed. From the source: On 17 July 1918 the final Imperial family of the Russian Empire - former Tsar Nicholas II, his wife Alexandra, and their children Olga, Tatiana, Maria, Anastasia and Alexei, were executed by Bolsheviks in the basement of the Ipatiev House in Ekaterinburg, a little over a year after Nicholas' abdication.
• During the removal of bodies from the basement of the Ipatiev House, Joy ran out onto the street and was taken by one of the house's guards, Mikhail Letemin. When the White Army took Yekaterinburg a week later, one of the officers, who knew the royal family well, recognized Joy on the street. He started asking whose dog it was, and they pointed to Letemin. The guard was arrested, and he gave testimony to the investigation. Aintabli (talk) 00:21, 8 June 2024 (UTC)- From source: There was at least one happy outcome - Alexey's Spaniel Joy, who had run away from the house in terror as the bodies were being taken away after the murders and then returned to wait patiently for his master, was later found at the home of guard Mikhail Letemin.

• Aintabli, let me know if you need anything else. Please note that all books that I have are in the Kindle format and copying the text is restricted due to copyright policies. If you need the evidence, I can capture screenshots and send you by email. Jacob0790 (talk) 06:38, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

  For consistency, could you move all the full citations to the Bibliography and only include in-text citations for the pages in the References section? Aintabli (talk) 17:19, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

  Sorry, I am not following you. Only books are presented in the Bibliography section. In the reference section, there are links to the Bibliography section as well as the citations to the web sites or journals. Can you please give an example of what you want? Jacob0790 (talk) 19:27, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

  Bibliography can include sources in general, not just books. Aintabli (talk) 19:55, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

  A bibliography, by definition, is a collection of books. It's easy to move all links, but I would be cautious about including links to websites and journals in this section. Could you kindly provide examples of other articles where you have observed this practice? Thanks, Jacob0790 (talk) 00:57, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

  Some random examples: [1], [2], [3], [4], and you can also find more examples on WP:GA. Here are several sources that describe bibliography as a list of writings not limited to books: [4][5][6]... If you would still be uncomfortable with moving the sources there, you can also consider renaming Bibliography to "Sources". Aintabli (talk) 01:16, 12 June 2024 (UTC) - I moved six sources to the Bibliography section. However, I couldn't move references #7 and #29 because they lack authors, making it difficult to cite them correctly. Jacob0790 (talk) 14:38, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

  You can try using Template:SfnRef, which accepts the title of the work, given the author is unknown, and anchors the reference to the full citation if set up correctly. Aintabli (talk) 15:17, 12 June 2024 (UTC) - Thank you, Aintabli, I moved them. Please review. Jacob0790 (talk) 17:33, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

• This is not a spotcheck, but could you shorten the part about other dogs in the lead? You may just mention that the family owned multiple other dogs without specifically naming them. I think this is much less negotiable than in the body, because including such details in the lead significantly drifts the focus of the article here. - Removed any mentions about other pets from the lead.
• General Mikhail Diterikhs took Joy with him, and later the spaniel accompanied his new owner to Omsk. In January 1919, Baroness Buxhoeveden, learning that the dog of the murdered Tsarevich Alexei was in Omsk, immediately went to see him. Sensing a familiar person from his past life, the nearly blind dog in despair jumped up and ran towards the Baroness. Could you provide a quote from the source? Searching some of the keywords, such as "Omsk" or 1919, did not return anything. - From the source: Joy, who by that time was almost blind, was taken in by Colonel Pavel Pavlovich Rodzianko, who served in the white troops of the Eastern Front. Soon he took the dog to Omsk, where the British military mission was located. At this time, the former maid of honor of the Empress, Baroness Buxhoeveden, was also in Omsk. Having learned that the little friend of the murdered Tsarevich Alesei was here, she immediately went to look at him. (Please note that the author Tatyana Manakova is correct about the event, but was confused with the order of events. First, General Diterikhs brought Joy to Omsk and only then he handed him over to Colonel Rodzianko. See my last comment in this post.)
• The Baroness separated from the imperial family in May 1918 in Yekaterinburg. She was not allowed into the Ipatiev House, which spared her from execution, and she wrote her memoirs while in exile in London. Could you provide a quote for this? - From the source: The Grand Duchesses and the Tsarevich were taken by the soliders to the Ipatiev House to join their parents. [...] I myself was imprisoned for few hours in the train and was then set free, joining the tutors and the servants in their fourth-class carriage in which we were allowed to stay for eleven days. After this we received orders to leave the province of Perm (of which Ekaterinburg is the capital) within twelve hours. We had to comply and never saw the Imperial Family again.
• King George V not only refrained from taking the dog for himself but also expressed no desire to see him. This reads a lot like the translation of the Russian text. Could you reword this part? Aintabli (talk) 10:26, 14 June 2024 (UTC) - reworded

  Please also make sure you are not closely paraphrasing any other sources, regardless of language. Aintabli (talk) 10:28, 14 June 2024 (UTC) - Please note that I am not merely rearranging words or replace phrases but synthesize information from multiple sources to provide a narrative that is distinct from any individual source.

  Please excuse me for any typos, I have all my sources on Kindle and had to retype the citations. Thanks, Jacob0790 (talk) 21:32, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Marriage of Pavel Rodzianko and Anita Leslie??

There seems to be a mistake in relation to the marriage of Pavel Rodzianko and Anita Leslie as Anita's article does not mention it. DGWIKIEDIT (talk) 04:34, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Anita Leslie#Family - She married, firstly in 1937, Paul Rodzianko (1903-1993 a great nephew of Mikhail Rodzianko) and secondly, Commander Bill King in 1947 who during World War II served as a submarine commander and later a transatlantic and circumnavigator yachtsman.

Jacob0790 (talk) 04:45, 28 June 2024 (UTC)