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Goseiger

Ryulong: We should be discussing this here on the article's talk page, not on my talk page. Now in the discussion from 2 years ago at Talk:Power Rangers Samurai#Shinkenger it was decided that it be can said in the Power Rangers Samurai article that it's an adaptation Samurai Sentai Shinkenger, because it's common sense to say so per WP:COMMON. As for reliable sources, there's a promotion photo that shows the Goseiger costumes in the KidScreen news article that is reference 1. As well, the news articles from Ledger-Enquirer and WRBL that are references 12 and 13 have photos that show the cast of Megaforce in the Goseiger costumes. I don't have compare the two images to come to a conclusion by myself because anyone who looks at the two images will come to same conclusion. That's common sense and therefore not original research. Powergate92Talk 19:37, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No. Because you are the only one raising the issue. In the discussion 2 years ago I backed down because you wouldn't accept the fact that your own personal identification that the photos and costumes in all the press material were from Shinkenger (now it's Goseiger) is still WP:OR. I know it's Goseiger, but we cannot print that fact here until it's officially stated by the production team. I am going to be firm about this this year. Until something from Saban says both "Megaforce" and "Goseiger" in it, this page will not make any mention of the Super Sentai Series that you and I and the fandom most definitely know is the source for this year's program. Our inherent knowledge of the subject is not enough to make that conclusion and that is all I am going to say on this matter unless it comes to a dispute resolution board.—Ryulong (琉竜) 11:34, 7 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

1) I was not the only one who disagreed with you in those discussions from 2 years, User:Charles RB, User:NotARealWord, User:Rick lay95, and User:Digifiend also disagreed with you because they came to the conclusion as I. 2) WP:SYNTHESIS is about when two different sources say two different things, don't make your own conclusion. This is in no way the same thing. 3) Since we seem to be at a complete disagreement, I'm starting a WP:Requests for comment below. Powergate92Talk 04:02, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

To respond to 1), none of them are regular editors and there were discussions on other noticeboards regarding the nature of the dispute and nothing came of it until I threw my hands in the air in defeat. To respond to 2), WP:SYNTHESIS is most indeed the same thing as what's going on here. You are looking at photographs of the Goseigers and looking at photographs of the Megaforce Power Rangers and coming to (the correct but previously unpublished) conclusion that the two are one in the same. And 3) is fine.—Ryulong (琉竜) 11:53, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

RfC: Is this common sense or original research?

RESOLVED

Image-based deductions about the type of Power Ranger costume used in this series is original research unless sourced in writing from a reliable source. czar ♔ 01:46, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

As can be seen in the above discussion, User:Ryulong and I are at a complete disagreement on whether or not it can be said in the article that, at the least Power Rangers Megaforce uses costumes from Tensou Sentai Goseiger, at the most that Megaforce will be an adaptation of Goseiger, based the fact that reliable sources have photos showing that the Goseiger costumes will be used in Megaforce. Ryulong believes that it is original research to say this because none of the sources say it. I believe that it's common sense to say this per WP:COMMON, as reliable sources have photos showing the Goseiger costumes will be used in Megaforce. News articles from KidScreen and Licensing.biz about Power Rangers Megaforce actually show the same photo of the Goseiger costumes that is used on the official Goseiger website, but with a different background. As well, news articles from Ledger-Enquirer [1] and WRBL [2] show the Power Rangers Megaforce cast in the Goseiger costumes. Powergate92Talk 04:02, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As I state above, Powergate92 is most definitely violating WP:NOR (and specifically WP:SYN) when it comes to the fact that his conclusion should be mentioned in the article. While I will concede that his conclusion about the two subjects is correct, we here at the English Wikipedia cannot state this information because of our policies that state all content should be verifiable and reliably sourced. Until the credits roll on episode 1 and the name "GOSEIGER" appears within, the English Wikipedia cannot make this conclusion even if it is blatantly right.—Ryulong (琉竜) 11:53, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I see no WP:SYN breach. The information isn't combined from the two sources, the two sources are showing the exact same thing - the confirmed cast members in Goseiger costumes. Digifiend (talk) 13:05, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The information is indeed combined from two sources (even if it is correct). After all, he's explicitly referring to looking at the photographs from one website and comparing them with another. As an encyclopedia that relies on providing verifiable content that is reliably sourced we cannot publish original content, no matter how correct it may be. This is why we cannot post anything regarding any of the Super Sentai programs on this page until we have a reliable source that states it. Try to look at this matter as an outsider rather than as someone who knows what "Tensou Sentai Goseiger" is.—Ryulong (琉竜) 15:10, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The content is reliably sourced (see above links) and is verifiable as anyone who looks at the images can verify that they are the same costumes. Verifying the content this way is in no way different from using a TV show as the source for its own plot, which is done in most TV shows articles. In that case, in order to verify the TV show's plot, someone would have to watch the TV show. Powergate92Talk 01:10, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There's no reliable source to say that the two are one in the same. We are asking the readers to come to that conclusion as we have which is not what we are supposed to do on Wikipedia.—Ryulong (琉竜) 09:18, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No source needs to say it as they are clearly the same costumes in the photos at the reliable sources above. They so clearly the same costumes that it's common sense, and would be hard for anyone not to come to that conclusion. With that, even if this did violate "the precise wording of a rule" of WP:SYNTHESIS (I believe it does not), WP:SYNTHESIS can be ignored under WP:Ignore all rules per WP:COMMON. Now, I believe this does not violate WP:SYNTHESIS, as that rule is about if two different sources say two different things, don't make your own conclusion that those 2 things are related. This is in no way the same case as we have the same photo that shows the same costumes published in reliable sources, one showing that they were used for Goseiger, the other showing that are being used for Megaforce. In addition to that, we have a few reliable sources that show the Megaforce cast in the costumes. Powergate92Talk 18:37, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I disagree with the application of WP:IAR here. And WP:SYN does not refer to two sources saying two different things. It just says taking what two sources say to make your own conclusion about the content. This is exactly what you're doing even if it is correct. And this isn't really a requests for comment as it's just you, myself, and Digifiend rehashing all the shit that went on 2 years ago. I assumed an RFC would actually involve outside editors of which none ever show up. I will be posting on WP:3O to get that input.—Ryulong (琉竜) 19:20, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Requests for comment's run for 30 days, it has not even been 2 days yet. Be patient, other will comment when they comment. I will leave a note about this discussion at WT:WikiProject Television so more uninvolved editors can know about it. Powergate92Talk 22:26, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

3O Response: Our task as editors is to report what experts have written. Unless you can find an expert who has written regarding the difference between the two photos in question and are able to cite that source, this fits the definition of WP:OR ReformedArsenal (talk) 19:31, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If what you said were true, using a TV show as the source for its own plot would be original research, because it would not be reporting "what experts have written." However, that is not the case. Powergate92Talk 22:26, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's exactly right. Consider the following analogous situation... If I'm working on the article for War and Peace, and provide a summary of the plot and major developments in the book, I am contributing my own research and perspective. What I should do instead is find an expert who has done this already, and if such an expert is not available for a given subject then perhaps we need to question the WP:GNG of the topic at hand. ReformedArsenal (talk) 02:29, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think with fiction it is okay to use the work of fiction of itself as a reliable source so long as you only report on the facts provided.—Ryulong (琉竜) 05:32, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Wikipedia policy WP:PSTS says: "A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the source but without further, specialized knowledge. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source." Citing primary sources for a plot section without interpretation does not qualify as original research. -- Wikipedical (talk) 05:33, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Summarizing or describing the plot is inherently an act of interpretation. ReformedArsenal (talk) 15:26, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's your opinion, but Wikipedia policy makes an exception. -- Wikipedical (talk) 18:37, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

3O Response: The conclusion that the costumes are the same without a reliable source is most certainly original research. In the comments, Powergate92 said, "They so clearly the same costumes that it's common sense, and would be hard for anyone not to come to that conclusion." Wikipedia's role is to provide verifiable and verified information, not to lead readers to make conclusions, no matter how "clear." I am not an expert on costumes and would definitely not be one to make judgments based on images. -- Wikipedical (talk) 05:41, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for laying this out properly. Two years ago I was fighting an uphill battle against Powergate92 and his (and other editors') insistence that we preemptively state the obvious concerning the Japanese origins of the previous season(s). However, trips to WP:NORN and WP:RSN proved fruitless as it appeared no one wanted to touch that dispute (now renewed this year) with a 10 foot pole.—Ryulong (琉竜) 18:48, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As I said above, the information is verifiable as news articles from KidScreen and Licensing.biz about Power Rangers Megaforce show the same photo of the Goseiger costumes that is used on the official Goseiger website. That, as well as the news articles from Ledger-Enquirer and WRBL which show the Megaforce cast in the Goseiger costumes, verify that the costumes will be used Power Rangers Megaforce. With that, the information is verifiable and can be verified by looking at the images, just as a TV show's plot is verifiable and can be verified by watching the TV show. Powergate92Talk 20:01, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Powegate92, these 3rd opinion editors have pointed out that even if you point out that this image is identical to this image, we at the English Wikipedia cannot under any circumstances post that very valid conclusion of yours in the article space. There is a difference between watching a show and saying what happens in the show and showing two images side by side and saying they're identical. You can definitely say that the images depict humanoid figures wearing yellow, blue, red, blue, and pink costumes and that they're all wielding weapons, but you cannot publish the conclusion that because the two images are identical and because thy're used in the promotional materials for two television programs, one of which came out 2 years ago, that one begat the other.—Ryulong (琉竜) 20:11, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ryulong

Just wanted to say that you are a fucking idiot. I don't give a shit what WP:This or WP:That says, you're full of shit and everyone knows it. You're a disgrace to the fucking fandom, if you are a fan and not just some Wiki blowhard that absolutely refuses to stray from the book. I don't know what pedestal you think you're on but you need to step the fuck down and realize that some of the shit that you type is absolutely fucking ridiculous.

Goseiger is Megaforce. There doesn't need to be proof. The proof is in the Zords, the suits, and what production staff have been saying. I don't give a shit if Megaforce hasn't aired yet, it is a fucking Goseiger adaptation and I know you know it. Fuck the rules and just let them list in the article. Shit, man.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.126.81.38 (talk • contribs)

Well that's tough for you because Wikipedia has rules and I'm enforcing them and those rules say that we need written proof from somewhere official, if not from a proper publication that isn't some fanblog or forum, that says that "MEGAFORCE = GOSEIGER". People who have no emotional attachment to the show agree with me that it's a violation of these rules and guidelines because there's no statement out there that we can use. Just comparing two sets of images isn't enough for Wikipedia. And if you say there are people in the production staff who've said "Yeah, we're using Goseiger" then provide that proof or shut up and stop being so rectal ragnarokked over a Wikipedia page.—Ryulong (琉竜) 01:14, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is listing each Ranger series as an adaptation actually needed on the page though?Gaeaman787 (talk) 16:15, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This shit is going to get covered once the first episode airs and the final credits roll so it can be added then. I don't know why it's so important to say so when all that's happened is a conference at a fan convention and an appearance in the Macy's Thanksgiving parade.—Ryulong (琉竜) 16:51, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Likely because there are tons and tons of rumors that are coming out about the show that shouldn't be on Wikipedia since they aren't. Such as the possible Gokai Silver, Ranger Keys, past Ranger Cards, etc. Though I doubt a big news service like the AP is going to cover PR, and Fury Diamond is basically the fandom's mole man for PR stuff, so I guess they're dissapointed that when he announces stuff to the fans (arguably as a reliable source, not a direct one as he isn't Haim Saban), that Wikipedia rules being so tightly enforced for PR don't allow people to just put in an easy citation such as JEF.Gaeaman787 (talk) 21:38, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The fandom doesn't understand that trusted internal sources are not equivalent to publications that have editorial oversight. I recall times that JEF has posted whatever stupid rumor that came up and it was proved to be entirely wrong in the end. Also the fandom complains to no end because of the spellings we use on Wikipedia. I saw a complaint about Vaglass. What the hell are the fansubs using that we aren't?—Ryulong (琉竜) 04:57, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Moreso people are complaining the lack of acknoledgement of Super Sentai in relation to the PR footage. But they don't get that the article is kinda written with the audience in mind-ish, that kids don't know what Sentai is and won't really be able to watch it.Gaeaman787 (talk) 17:32, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

But there is no footage. This show's a month or so away from being broadcast.—Ryulong (琉竜) 17:34, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As in visual references from trailers like the one at MorphiconGaeaman787 (talk) 20:35, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And yet no one from the mainstream media reported on those (and they wouldn't know what Goseiger is anyway).—Ryulong (琉竜) 05:03, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thing is, no one from the mainstream media really cares about Power Rangers in general, hence why the fandom relies on the single inside source, and likely why people keep getting annoyed that they can't cite Fury Diamond as a source on wikipedia. Its moreso that wikipedia's rules of requiring mainstream sources makes citing info for PR quite difficultGaeaman787 (talk) 21:44, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well that's not my problem. Random people in the fandom don't have the editorial control of mainstream sources so they're not to be trusted on Wikipedia, regardless if they have a flawless track record on RangerBoard or HJU or whereever else these things are posted. Also, is Fury Diamond the one who also made all those cookie cutter websites for the cast members claiming them as official that I absolutely abhorred as well?—Ryulong (琉竜) 02:31, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I think FD is the one to make the "Such and Such Cast" websites. They're considered official as he has connections with the Saban staff I believe. He as well as Chris Funaro have known at least Tzachor and Bukhamir for quite awhile. I also remember there was some verbal mixup as to the possible use of the Gokaiger footage for the second season on Megaforce, but that the directors essentially stated that they didn't want to use the Gokaiger footage since pirates aren't really heroic in theme. I essentially think the fandom just wants there to be an exception regarding PR sources and allow them to cite these blogs (though said poster cites the direct source of their info, the blog merely makes it accessible to people.) even though most of the things that insiders post are rumors and not verifiable facts. There's so little news out of Saban and that there are no American magazines or publications for them to cite. Gaeaman787 (talk) 03:24, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I mean when he made "official" websites for people like Rhoda Montemayor or whoever played Xander in Mystic Force that were clearly made for like Geocities and they were posted to every single cast member's page here (also whoever runs Super Sentai.com or whatever it is needs to stop cribbing the shit here).—Ryulong (琉竜) 04:40, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ohh I didn't know those existed, or if he designed thoseGaeaman787 (talk) 00:18, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

SOmeone in the fandom did. I think the name at the time was "Mystic Points" or whatever.—Ryulong (琉竜) 09:10, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.sabanbrands.com/pdfs/Saban_Power_Rangers_Megaforce.pdf Saban Press Release specifically mentions Gosei by name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.71.224.238 (talk) 19:31, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested moves

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. And yes, I actually did read the whole thing, though I did question my sanity for doing so. Jenks24 (talk) 14:36, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

– A while back, there was a huge discussion (initiated by off-site parties who are to this day still using me as a scapegoat) that forced Wikipedia to adopt the version of these titles that lack a colon to separate "Power Rangers" from whatever the season's subtitle was. With the switch to Saban, it seems that the official titles are using the colon. The colon also, in common sense, should be used in these titles to delineate title from subtitle. There is really no reason for Wikipedia to use the form that only proliferates due to the fans not desiring a single punctuation mark in the title, and their blind hatred of me. — Ryūlóng (琉竜) 04:10, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ummmm no, they aren't using the colon. You're seeing things you want to see but are in no way reality. Don't try the pity card because of alleged "Blind hatred". Your crusade has no factual founding--Harmony944 (talk) 04:27, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Look at the HTML titles. Look at usage in Google that isn't fansites. And you had no right to remove the entire list from this page. This is an official requested move to seek a change in consensus.

Also to note, most of these pages have been moved by a serial sockpuppeteer and I am trying to get them restored to their proper titles prior my posting this.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:58, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - Policy is to use the most common name, and that can be different from the official or legal name. Me-123567-Me (talk) 21:13, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There is no way to determine whether or not the colon is or is not the common name because most search engines ignore punctuation. Also, fandom sources aren't reliable souces so that cuts out a good number of them, leaving the most recent reliable sources that have titles with colons in them.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:16, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There is no way to determine if the use or non-use of a colon is more common in a WP-relevant way, but anyone familiar with the subject matter knows that the use without the colon is much more common. JPG-GR (talk) 13:34, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You can't Google it, and people familiar with the subject matter rely on the primary sources which is what Wikipedia does not prefer in these cases.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:03, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be willing to posit that 99.9% of everyone familiar with the subject matter would never use a colon, regardless of their role relative to the franchise. But that is neither here nor there. JPG-GR (talk) 17:28, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - The official site does not the colons, I repeat, the official site does not use the colons. At all. Period. Why are you using Nick.com anyway? They don't own Power Rangers, they don't have the power to dictate how a show is suppose to be titled, Saban does.--OriginPoke 04:56, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Did ranger board post something because both you and harmony up there haven't edited in years. This discussion should have participants from the Wikipedia community and not be poisoned by the fandom, again. It's a single punctuation mark. And official usage is not what determines titles of pages on Wikipedia. Most common usage in reliable sources does.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:24, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Since when is January 2014 "years"?--Harmony944 (talk) 01:44, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You haven't edited in a while, aside from the edits in January, and you have relatively few edits overall.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:51, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Uh... no. My lack of activity in years is because I'm a frequent editor on Bulbapedia. I mention that on my userpage. Besides, I only lurk around Wikipedia.

Surely you have to fall back to the official usage if all of the common usage are used by fans. --Origin Poke 05:42, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Common usage is determined by reliable sources of which fan contributed material does not count.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:01, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, so an official site is not a reliable source, who knew? Bandai, Saban and (to an extant) TOEI, are the only reliable sources as they own Power Rangers and are the ones that dictate how a show is suppose to be titled. A news article is just a news article. It is written by someone who most likely has no knowledge or connections with the franchise and thus will write down the title with or without the colon. They just do not care.

How about scripts from the show? I'm sure a script would be a strong reliable source. And trust me, if there were meant to be colons in the titles, the titles in the scripts would have colons.--Origin Poke 04:57, 15 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Again, official usage isn't what we're after. We're after most common usage in third party reliable sources. And no number of photos of scripts can really sway this discussion. It's just a punctuation mark that's serving the exact same purpose as displaying the subtitle on a second line in both of those photos. I don't know why the fans were so up in arms about it.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 09:16, 15 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

But why third party? They're not going to care about how the title is supposed to be named. A trusted news site does not make it a legitimate reliable source regarding titles and naming conventions, they don't know nor do they care. They will either put no colon becuase that's what the fans refer it to or put the colons because it is grammatically correct. They just do not care.

Regarding scripts, even so, the script should show a colon in the title (and it must be accurate to how the producer wants it to be titled). If the script does not show a colon in the title, it's obvious there is meant to be no colon in the title.--Origin Poke 02:40, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Because those are the rules of this website. Per WP:COMMONNAME, "Wikipedia prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources) as such names will be the most recognizable and the most natural." So your random photos of scripts do not count in this regard.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:51, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The word "source" when citing sources on Wikipedia has three related meanings: the piece of work itself (the article, book); I believe scripts would fall under "piece of work".--Origin Poke 08:25, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sources must be published so a script doesn't really count in this regard. Not to mention a photo of a physical copy of a script with "POWER RANGERS [carriage return] ZEO" on its cover doesn't cut it either.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:57, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A physical copy of script is a published source. Granted, it may be a second draft or something, I'll give you that. But the point is, if the script does not have colons, it logically means the producer (or director) intentionally want the title without the colon.--Origin Poke 09:04, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Read WP:SOURCES:

Source material must have been published, the definition of which for our purposes is "made available to the public in some form".

So no, the front page of the scripts (which aren't made available to the public unlike the content of the script itself) doesn't count.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 09:30, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Per the common sense I can totally agree with the move but OriginPoke showed us the official site de facto don't use colons. However, Ryulong is right when he says "official usage is not what determines titles of pages on Wikipedia. Most common usage in reliable sources does." I randomly chose SPD and the two sources on it use do not use colons; there is a divergence however since PopMatters use "Power Rangers S.P.D." and Los Angeles Times use "Power Rangers SPD: Space Patrol Delta". Dino Thunder don't favors you too, Ryulong ([3], [4]). Could you bring some sources here, Ryulong? (I'm sincerely not too much interested on it to look for more sources ... and if I don't return here is just because of this indifference). Gabriel Yuji (talk) 06:08, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've found this and this for the newer season (that aren't websites just copy-pasting the Saban press release), Amazon.co.uk product listing, and an iTunes product listing. Most of the rest that I can find in Google is fansites and also there's no differentiation in the search criteria for punctuation to determine which prevails anyway.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:01, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Soooo you trust backstage.com and Nerd Overload more than the Saban press release and websites like RangerCrew and Rangerboard, who are highly regarded in the forum enough to be in POWER FORCE? The sites you're using to support are basically as clueless as you are. All the acronyms lack the colons too--Harmony944 (talk) 01:53, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sites like RangerCrew and RangerBoard are fan fites, they don't count. Even if they have prominent members that have connections to the franchise (Power Force) it is not a reliable source.--Origin Poke 02:40, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

They're fansites, but they're certainly more on top of things than general third party news sites...--Harmony944 (talk) 03:22, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That's because they're fans of the show, they follow the franchise. So of course they'd be on top of all things Power Rangers. But that doesn't make them a reliable source. I'm not sure about Power Force, but I'm pretty sure they were only made to promote the franchise, not work for them.--Origin Poke 04:32, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Harmony, OriginPoke, you two need to realize that our naming policies (WP:COMMONNAME) and our sourcing policies (WP:V and WP:RS) exclude fansites from being used as sources and prefers that secondary or third party sources are to be used. And acronyms or photographs of scripts' cover pages do not qualify as reasons not to exclude a single piece of punctuation from these pages' titles simply because the fan community believes that having the punctuation in the title makes the title somehow incorrect.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:51, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

At this point, you're just saying "Fuck the experts fuck official sources, I'm gonna do what I want. I choose what the common and official usages are." YOUR SOURCES ARE BULLCRAP--Harmony944 (talk) 06:56, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If you do not wish to abide by the policies and guidelines of this website, then you don't have to use this website. Please read WP:OFFICIALNAME regarding "official sources" and WP:SOURCES for why fansites (your so called "experts") are to be avoided.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:58, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

At this point you've lost all common sense. You know what? Fine, let's say hypothetically Megaforce and Super Megaforce were to be moved because of your single unreliable and unofficial source. What are your sources on the other seasons? Why would they suddenly be so inconsistent? How are scripts and press releases from the owners of the franchise "unreliable"? If you mean to tell me that people commonly use the colon, explain to me the indication by spoken word. Your sources are not credible, because the common usage is the official usage. Please, provide factual, actual sources before using random sites. Nintendo uses no colon for its licensed Megaforce game. It's baffling how inept you are and are so desperate to be right you're encouraging decreased site traffic--Harmony944 (talk) 07:08, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It is only your opinion that the sources are unreliable because they are unofficial. And this is why I have listed every page. We must keep consistency. And your emotional response is exactly what I feared would happen when I opened this up for debate. One based on preserving the fandom's choice rather than following Wikipedia's rules and regulations.

So let me put it to you this way. Unless you can find reliable sources that fit in with Wikipedia's guidelines on such sources that proves your side, then sit down and shut up. It's common sense and proper English grammar to designate the subtitle with a colon. Dozens of other intellectual properties have things set up this way and there's no reason for Power Rangers to be any different just because the fandom says it should. Every single logo and every single script photo has "Power Rangers" on one line and "Super Megaforce" or "Zeo" on the second as an intentional designation of showing the latter set is the subtitle. We are presenting this information in prose and the prose I've found that is not the fandom's crazed definition of what is and is not the "official" title says that these pages titles should all start with "Power Rangers:".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:17, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

We're crazed? Do you know how hypocritical you're sounding?--Harmony944 (talk) 07:23, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I never said "crazed" so don't put words in my mouth. I said that your response was emotional and not based in Wikipedia guidelines or policies.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:24, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Resorting to lying now? "I've found that is not the fandom's crazed definition..." Dude, you are in way over your head. You're trying to apply it to everything when nothing except "Mighty Morphin Power Rangers: The Movie" ever officially or commonly used it. The scripts would've had a colon in season titles if they wanted it but they didn't. You're telling me that it's "fandom opinion" what's reliable but you're giving your own definitions when they're just as much opinion as the fandom's. We have reliable sources. You do not. You have yet to find one.--Harmony944 (talk) 07:31, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I never called you crazed. And photographs of cover pages of the scripts which should not have ended up in anyone else's hands but the cast and crew do not count as reliable sources. I'm providing arguments based on this website's internal style guides, rules, and regulations. You're just on the defensive because you (and everyone else in the "Power Force") think a single punctuation mark is a pox on the whole concept of Power Rangers.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:57, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I know fansites aren't a reliable source. I'm not saying it is. --Origin Poke 08:25, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You may not be, but Harmony944 certainly has been arguing to that end.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:57, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

They're certainly more reliable than the sources you've been using. You just won't concede that. You've still haven't answered about the OTHER seasons using the colon. BECAUSE THEY NEVER DID. --Harmony944 (talk) 15:25, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Fansites do no not meet Wikipedia's sourcing standards. Just because they have a good track record with information doesn't hold water for Wikipedia. And stop refactoring the list of pages to be moved. And this is for consistency across all pages. We are not going to have some pages with a colon in the title and some pages that do not simply because I've not bothered to find a source that supports its usage.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 15:52, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Power Rangers: Zeo
Power Rangers: Turbo
Power Rangers: In Space (I've omitted this from this move request for now)
Power Rangers: Lost Galaxy
Power Rangers: Lightspeed Rescue
Power Rangers: Time Force
Power Rangers: Wild Force
Power Rangers: Ninja Storm
Power Rangers: Dino Thunder
Power Rangers: SPD
Power Rangers: Mystic Force (note that this is the one posted recently by Saban rather than the BVS version)
Power Rangers: Operation Overdrive
Power Rangers: Jungle Fury
Power Rangers: RPM

Then there's some weird separate listings for Samurai, Super Samurai, Megaforce, and Super Megaforce that don't follow the above pattern of listings, but I showed that Nick.com's websites use the colons there. Now stop messing up my discussion just because you don't like it, Harmony944.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:04, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, you think it's because I don't like it? STOP IGNORING OFFICIAL SCRIPTS AND PRESS RELEASES--Harmony944 (talk) 16:06, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Read WP:OFFICIALNAME.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:07, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The official name is colonless. Two anomalies where the colon is used DO NOT MEAN IT'S A MAJORITY OF OFFICIAL OR COMMON USAGE--Harmony944 (talk) 16:11, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Did you not read that page I just linked? It says "Wikipedia does not always use official names of things". And punctuation marks do not make a name official or unofficial anyway. And common practice must be determined by reliable sources which you haven't provided yet.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:13, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

THEN WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU ARGUING? This one has Turbo, In Space, and Megaforce colonless Megaforce is again colonless Super Megaforce? Again Colonless Dino Charge is COLONLESS--Harmony944 (talk) 16:29, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm arguing for the use of colons in these page titles because it is proper English grammar to denote the subtitle in this manner and because it has use outside of the fan-created sources which means its how the general public sees the names of these things. And Saban Brands' fifty billion press releases are not reliable sources. They're official sources, but they're not third party reliable sources that are used to determine the titles of pages on Wikipedia. And there should not be this much go damn vitriol over a ":" between "Power Rangers" and whatever subtitle it is for the season. This is about common English usage which usually does not match whatever official title. It's like how every single Pokemon game is "Pokemon [color] Version" but Wikipedia's articles are at "Pokemon [color]".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:33, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Beeeeeecause the moon landing was staged? According to conspiracies reported on news stations, IT WAS! I bet you selfie Youre pants at the Yolo station too. Because those are what people think is proper English. And you also lie: "Version" was dropped with X and Y--Harmony944 (talk) 16:38, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Stop twisting what I say. WP:V says third party reliable sources. Press releases from Saban are not third party. Grammar and punctuation are different from whatever new words enter the English lexicon. And just because in the last year they changed the way the video games are named does not invalidate my argument.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:42, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Just because it's grammatically correct does not mean that is how the producers intended the show to be titled. Third party sources aren't going to care, they're going to add the colons because it is grammatically correct. Not because that is how the show is supposed to be called.--Origin Poke 10:33, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't matter what it's supposed to be called (WP:OFFICIALNAME). It matters what other people call it (WP:COMMONNAME). The United States' 42nd president was named in full "William Jefferson Clinton" but everyone calls him "Bill Clinton". If reliable third party sources call the current season of this TV show "Power Rangers: Super Megaforce", then Wikipedia should as well.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 13:41, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Megaforce trademark Dino Supercharge trademark RPM Trademark Jungle Fury Trademark NOTICE ANYTHING? The fact that you can't accept the company that owns Power Rangers as a reliable source (or the friggin scripts they used) is insane, considering you have yet to prove how the title having colon is prevalent. So these links should finally shut you up. The coloned names are not trademarked--Harmony944 (talk) 16:31, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Harmony944, for the umpteenth time read WP:OFFICIALNAME and WP:COMMONNAME. And now you can add WP:MOSTM to that list. Neither I nor Wikipedia should care how the company formats the title of these shows. What matters is how everyone else does it, whether it matches the trademarks or not.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:07, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well if you don't care then why do you expect the title to be moved? Unless you can prove that "everyone else" uses the coloned title, then there is no reason to move the pages! You have brought forward no reliable sources to back up your argument while discarding all major primary and secondary sources. Just because a vocal minority ie YOU say something is right doesn't mean it is. You can't ignore primary sources, plain and simple. THIRD PARTY DOES NOT MATTER. And I quote "unless the trademarked spelling is demonstrably the most common usage in sources independent of the owner of the trademark." The trademark office is independent of the owner of the trademark. Therefore, the trademark is a reliable source.--Harmony944 (talk) 17:29, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Stop taking bits and pieces of what I wrote out of context to attempt to invalidate my argument. It doesn't matter to Wikipedia what the official name or title of anything is. What matters is how the world at large refers to the subjects of articles. And in this case that means that third party reliable sources out weigh any official primary source, which are the only sources that you have provided, including these new trademark listings. You can't cite the trademark's listing as being independent from the trademark holder. That makes no effing sense. And, if you actually read WP:MOSTM instead of pulling a single sentence from it that supports your claims, it says that Wikipedia routinely ignores trademarked names if they do not fit in with our internal rules and regulations, like Ke$ha and P!nk. I have provided plenty of third party reliable sources that show that the colon is in use for these titles, which includes iTunes listings for every season from Zeo to RPM. You have not provided one single third party source to back up your repeated claims that the name omits the colon.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 18:09, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I highly advise you stop lying. The trademark office is not associated with Saban. Therefore they are third party. I have not taken a single thing you've said out of context. You keep changing your story among these claims. Nick.com contradicts you. The trademark office contradicts you. The Verizon FIOS channel guide contradicts you. Zap2it contradicts you. You still have yet to provide a source that says pre-Samurai seasons use colons in their titles and are only changing it to suit your desires, which you attriubute to "consistency". Considering "Ke$ha" is legally Kesha again, thus wouldve been moved anyway means your point is moot. Your scope is so small that you haven't decisively covered common usage at all. The most common usage is colonless. What you're saying is if one book or website claimed Benjamin Franklin was really named Yingmar Bingenhoffer, but his descendants and the entire city of Philadelphia say his name was Benjamin Franklin, you would go with the book or website and demand the Wikipedia page be moved to Yingmar Bingenhoffer. You're claiming you're winning the argument by discarding every primary and legitimate source and clinging onto your one single unreliable source. Give it up, it's not funny--Harmony944 (talk) 18:32, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

How the fuck am I lying? You're citing the trademark itself in another instance of you parroting your "IT'S THE OFFICIAL NAME" argument for the past three days. And again you're picking random shit out of my arguments out of context. And now you're making wildly wrong and hyperbolic comparisons. How the fuck is changing "Power Rangers Megaforce" to "Power Rangers: Megaforce" anything fucking remotely like a change from "Benjamin Franklin" to "Yingmar Bingenhoffer"? Answer: it isn't. I've provided plenty of independent third party sources that show the colon is in use for everything from Zeo through Dino Charge. And I've argued that it's proper grammar. You've done nothing but go "OFFICIAL NAME" and only just now found the Zap2It page to support your claim. And the article on Kesha Sebert has always been at "Kesha" and not "Ke$ha" (her previous trademarked name) nor "Kesha Sebert" (her legal name), which again explains WP:COMMONNAME, WP:OFFICIALNAME, and WP:MOSTM.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 18:45, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"How the fuck am I lying?" Answer: By claiming that I've yet to provide a legitimate source, when I've provided several you continually ignore.
"You've done nothing but go "OFFICIAL NAME"" Answer: Just because you don't read the argument properly doesn't mean it isn't there
"How the fuck is changing "Power Rangers Megaforce" to "Power Rangers: Megaforce" anything fucking remotely like a change from "Benjamin Franklin" to "Yingmar Bingenhoffer"?" Answer: REREAD THE ANALOGY AGAIN.
"I've provided plenty of independent third party sources that show the colon is in use for everything from Zeo through Dino Charge." Where? You keep parroting "iTunes! iTunes!" and that's the only source you've provided with name recognition. You keep yelling "Opinion! Opinion! IT'S ONLY YOUR OPINION!" but yet the only proof you have for past seasons using colons is your own shoehorned consistency (see: "And this is for consistency across all pages. We are not going to have some pages with a colon in the title and some pages that do not simply because I've not bothered to find a source that supports its usage" from the same comment as your iTunes list). You have yet to prove that the colon is common usage. You have only proven that there is usage. There's a big difference.
"And again you're picking random shit out of my arguments out of context." Answer: Is that your only defense? You haven't even provided proper evidence I did so in the first place! I showed you how it was perfectly in context because you don't know the difference between "I" and "we". Are you going to claim that I'm taking random shit out of context AGAIN because I picked apart your "argument"?

Haven't you noticed no one else has thrown support your way? --Harmony944 (talk) 19:02, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You have not provided third-party reliable sources up until the Zap2it one. Everything has been official sources or primary sources.
You keep repeating the same "this is the official name and no other should exist" argument.
The analogy is still hyperbole and shit.
I only fucking once listed every single god damn iTunes source. I have Amazon. I have the two sources I posted in responding to Gabriel Yuji earlier that aren't iTunes.
And every time you've taken shit I've written out of context as if it's supposed to invalidate what I said. "Neither I nor Wikipedia should care..." turned into "if you don't care why are we arguing this".

And no one else has bothered to give an argument supported by Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, nor is anyone else going to comment on this because of the fucking beast of a thread we made by fighting with each other for the past 3 days. Adding the colon to these pages is fucking common sense. It's how subtitles are formatted in English. It's how every other god damn English language entity with multiple entries with similar titles formats the subtitle in prose. I don't understand why the fuck the fandom has this hate boner for these two dots and my involvement with them.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:22, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, the discussion is bigger than I was expecting. Shouldn't you ask for more opinions? I see a discussion that I'll end in nowhere... Gabriel Yuji (talk) 19:16, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No one is going to bother touching this because of this argument now. And this is going to close as "no consensus to move" because the closing administrator or non-administrator is going to head count rather than examine the arguments.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:22, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"You have not provided third-party reliable sources up until the Zap2it one. Everything has been official sources or primary sources." And that makes them bad HOW? Yu have still failed to prove whether the coloned usage is dominant enough to be considered "common" especially with past seasons.
Using "hate boner" shows how determined you are to be right. Saying "The analogy is still hyperbolic and shit" is pointless when you fail to explain how, just so you could brush it off like it's no big deal.
iTunes is still just one collective source. Which DOES NOT HAVE DINO CHARGE. Or Dino Supercharge for that matter. I provided sources for both. The Trademark office is independent of Saban, therefore making them third party.

What I'm seeing is you asking a stranger what your son's name is instead of your own wife, or I dunno, your son f old enough to communicate it. because they're primary sources and not "reliable third party"--Harmony944 (talk) 19:39, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Because I told you multiple times that third party sources are preferred as reliable sources over primary or official ones. I've never seen so much vitriol and hatred thrown anywhere because of the :. I provided other Dino Charge sources 3 days ago. The middle man of the trademark office is irrelevant because you're citing Saban's trademarks. It's the same if you showed me every single website that copied the Dino Charge press release and pasted it onto their own servers. It's still a primary source (or secondary even).

And stop making comparisons to hypothetical living people. We are discussing the punctuation (or lack thereof) within a trademarked name. Not a drastic change to make these Super Sentai Kyoryugerrangers or whatever. It's adding one ASCII character to these pages' titles because that's how it should have always been done according to the standards of English grammar, and that form is in use by Amazon.com, iTunes, the Nickelodeon website, half of these listings for some reason, Rotten Tomatoes apparently, and several other websites already mentioned. You've done NOTHING but fall back on "this is the official name" when it's not even like the actual name is being changed. Why is the fandom so vehemently against this one punctuation mark existing in these page titles? What is it about adding this that makes them wrong? This never made any sense to me.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:55, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You just called Benjamin Franklin a hypothetical person. That says a lot about your perception of reality. (You going to claim I took your words out of context? You told me to " stop making comparisons to hypothetical living people." like it's a recurring action, when it wasn't) You made no such Dino Charge sourcings. The Nickelodeon website does not use a colon. ANYWHERE. That's the first point we made to you. Stop using it as an example. You're also mutilating the rule, which as you quoted "Wikipedia prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources) as such names will be the most recognizable and the most natural." It's says NOTHING ABOUT THIRD-PARTY. Or did you forget that? You claimed "There is no way to determine whether or not the colon is or is not the common name because most search engines ignore punctuation." which I already disproved. You said fansites don't count, but neither do official sites or official material. Are you saying the show itself isn't allowed to declare the official spelling? Your entire argument is "I GET TO NAME IT WHAT I WANT! THE SHOW DOESN'T GET TO DECIDE! NEITHER DOES COMMON SENSE!" You keep saying I'm falling back on the same argument, but at least I have proof! You're the one who compared Kesha and Pink but when I use Benjamin Franklin suddenly that's wrong? WHAT'S YOUR DEAL? Your argument is the only one valid because you say so?--Harmony944 (talk) 23:39, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

holy shit stop taking my shit out of context. And just because the one policy page doesn't mention third party sources doesn't mean it isn't implied by the overarching site wide policy. And how the fuck is adding a : a change in spelling? It isn't. We're adding a punctuation mark that should be in these titles as determined by the fact that a bunch of other websites and publications using that same fucking punctuation mark when referring to these shows. Stop harping at me that I'm making some massive world ending change to these 50 pages when I am adding two dots to their titles because that is how they should be formatted according to the rules of English grammar. And your Benjamin franklin situation was still hypothetical hyperbole. You were claiming that a change to his whole name was somehow comparable to modifying the punctuation of a children's television show.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 04:28, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Neither I nor Wikipedia should care how the company formats the title of these shows. What matters is how everyone else does it, whether it matches the trademarks or not."

"It doesn't matter to Wikipedia what the official name or title of anything is"

So sites like Itunes, and Amazon own Power Rangers? Who knew? Your example of Bill Clinton, whilst correct, is kind of flawed when put to comparison. Bill Clinton was the president of the United States. Power Rangers is a dwindling children show, it isn't as popular as, say, Game of Thrones. Third party source are going to care more about Bill Clinton than Power Rangers. --Origin Poke 02:25, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It is not about who owns this intellectual property. It is about how the world at large refers to it. And if that means they choose to follow a standard form of English grammar and punctuation when for some unknown reason the copyright and trademark holders didn't bother that's shouldn't be a big ducking deal like you two have been making it out to be. Christ it is these two dots : . What about them suddenly makes it like a change from "John Smith" to "Frankenstein edelweiss" like Harmony944 has been saying?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 04:28, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The world at large does not care about Power Rangers. Anymore at least. It isn't as big as it was. The world at large places a colon because it is grammatically correct. Not because they did their research and found that the show uses colons. That's the problem. They. Just. Do. Not. Care. At. All. So we shouldn't be relying on them. The upcoming movie might have their interests, because hey it's a movie, but the tv show? pfft.--Origin Poke 04:47, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ryulong, do you even know what "context" means? How am I taking your words out of context? Can you explain that? And what are "third ovary sources"?--Harmony944 (talk) 05:35, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I wrote it up on my fucking phone. Jesus h Christ. And it does not matter that the media doesn't care. It's two fucking dots and I don't know what crawled up the collective colon of the fandom such that adding these two dots to these pages' titles is such a drastic change that must be fought tooth and nail.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:51, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What happened to common usage? You're blaming an anal-retentive fandom when you're saying this and that don't count and this and that don't matter when all you want is to be right no matter how wrong you actually are. If everyone thinks Benjamin Franklin's name is Benjamin Franklin, you'd still believe it's Yingmar Bingenhoffer because that's what the book you read said--Harmony944 (talk) 05:56, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, it does matter if the media cares or not. Because if they don't, then we shouldn't be using the media as our third party source, because that would make them just as unreliable as the fans. --Origin Poke 06:08, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

For the last fucking time Harmony944, stop making that shit hyperbole analogy. This is nothing resembling a change from "Benjamin Franklin" to "Yingmar Bingenhoffer". It's not even a fucking change from "apples" to "oranges" which are the comparisons you're making. It's a change from "foo bar" to "foo: bar". That's it. That's all that's being proposed to be changed here. I do not know why you are taking it to be such a fucking massive change. And common usage as well as common sense when considering English formatting rules used all over this god damn website is "Power Rangers: Whatever". It doesn't matter how the trademark is formatted (WP:MOSTM). It doesn't matter what the official name is (WP:OFFICIALNAME). Common name and sticking to a standard for formatting is what matters here. And that falls on the colon designating the subtitle as much as every single god damn logo and pretty much all you've shown is sticking the subtitle on a second line. And third party media is reliable (according to WP:RS) regardless if they give a fuck on how the name is written with or without punctuation. They're reliable sources. The people at Rangerboard, Ranger Central (who I think steal from Wikipedia anyway), and all of these other websites do not count towards shit. I am tired of repeating myself because you two keep finding new ways to make attempts at invaliding my arguments. I've established that common usage separated from Saban is with a colon for all seasons from Zeo through Dino Charge, even In Space which I've excluded from this debate. There have been practically no third party reliable sources provided by either of you two to suggest otherwise. Just a bunch of official websites and trademark listings. Again, one miniscule punctuation mark separating the words "Power Rangers" from everything else is not as drastic a change as you two are making it out to be. And of out everything, you're arguing that the mainstream media isn't reliable because of how they don't notice the omission of : from the titles that you are assuming is intentional on Saban's behalf.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 09:28, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

By your subtitling rule, Mighty Morphin Power Rangers should be Mighty Morphin: Power Rangers since the words Power Rangers are the subtitles. It is not a massive change, it is just a change that is not there. And you know that omitting the punctuation isn't intentional on Saban's behalf? How do you know that? You don't work for Saban, that is not your call to make, nor is it mine. It's like not relying on the official Pokemon Website for stuff about the Hoenn remakes, because no news article is reporting on it. It is illogical. The only reason I'm not citing third party sources is because of course they are going to be grammatically correct and place a colon, what professional news site wouldn't? Also, it's the same mainstream media that said a "Power Ranger" murdered people, when in reality it was an extra. Again, you are right that it is not a big change, but it is an unnecessary change because you are fighting something non existent. --Origin Poke 10:44, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

God, now you're making bad analogies too. MMPR and MMAR do not have the same set up as the others so they do no count, and there is not one reliable source that uses "Mighty Morphin: Power Rangers" as the title.

Neither of us know the reason why Saban's trademarks lack the punctuation and it's not our call to determine that. It's our call to determine how the name should be formatted on this website based on how reliable sources format them. If that's with a colon, then Wikipedia should follow that. Simply relying on the official sources is not how things work on Wikipedia. That's why Pokémon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire includes references from IGN and Gamespot and the like, in addition to Pokemon.com. However, there are no such websites like IGN for Power Rangers (that meet the reliable source criteria on Wikipedia), so that means we fall back on other sources that meet Wikipedia's criteria on reliable sources and go with what they use, which is proper English punctuation. And don't use that murder case as a way to discredit me. That's in really poor taste, not to mention it's all "Former 'Power Rangers' Actor" in their headlines as a way to grab people's attention.

The change is miniscule. The proposed titles are used throughout the world because it's standard English grammar and punctuation. Wikipedia is not an extension of the fandom or its desires. The titles for Zeo through Dino Supercharge, excepting In Space, should include colons.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 11:37, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Uh... there's a reason why I didn't mention MMAR. The MMPR logo has "Power Rangers" on top whilst "Mighty Morphin" down bottom. That is what you mean when you say "subtitles". In fact, since the logo has Power Rangers on top whilst Mighty Morphin in the bottom, it should be Power Rangers: Mighty Morphin, according to you. The MMAR Logo does no do such thing, thus why I omitted it. And I know there are no sources that uses that set up, it's just an example.

And it is not a news articles call to make as well. You're basically saying whatever IGN says trumps over whatever Pokemon.com says. Which is not true. Same here, whatever Itunes or Amazon says does not trump whatever Powerrangers.com says. I know it's policy, but there comes a time when you have to stop and think about it for a second or two. The people that are reporting these things are not more official than the people that makes the product. Also, I wasn't discrediting you when I mentioned the murder case, I was discrediting the mainstream media.

The worldwide usage uses the colons because it is grammatically correct. Not because, hey, that's how the show is suppose to be titled right? I'm not opposing because I'm a fan, I'm opposing because it's officially not meant to have the colon. And I know, policy, but think about it for a second or two. People reporting these things are far, far, far, more official than the people making the product?--Origin Poke 12:47, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Also, Ryulong, you still haven't provided proof that the coloned usage outweighs the colonless. You say you're changing them for consistency, but you're still excepting In Space. Isn't that a little contradictory, considering you still haven't found proof that the other seasons have their titles coloned outside of one, maybe 2 places? And for the record Power Rangers is below Mighty Morphin in the original logo BUT so is "Saban's" in every Saban-made season. By your logic Ryulong, the title is Saban's: Power Rangers: Megaforce. See how much sense that doesn't make?--Harmony944 (talk) 14:02, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Stop going off on tangents. "Mighty Morphin Power Rangers" (and by extension Alien Rangers) has no subtitle, unlike all of the seasons that followed. In Space is an oddity amongst them, in that "Power Rangers in Space" is a statement (like the huge debate at Star Trek Into Darkness), even though "Power Rangers: In Space" has been in use. And I have several sources. iTunes, Amazon, those news sources on Dino Charge, etc.

We go by what the media at large refers to whatever we're talking about is because those are the rules of this website. That means if "Power Rangers: Dino Charge" is in use, we use that title. PowerRangers.com is an official website and has its own internal rules as to how to format things and that does not have any bearing on how things are formatted on Wikipedia.

It is not about the officiality. It is about common usage. And common usage dictates the usage of the colon to punctuate the subtitle, regardless of how the trademarks or other official sources format the title. That's how it works on Wikipedia.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 13:51, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"It is not about the officiality. It is about common usage. And common usage dictates..." And where's your proof that the coloned usage is more common than colonless? You keep avoiding this question and it isn't helping your case. You either want grammatically correct or common usage. Which one is it?--Harmony944 (talk) 14:05, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've posted a billion fucking links that have "Power Rangers:" in it. It's grammatically correct and common. And your "Saban's: Power Rangers: Megaforce" argument doesn't hold water.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 14:12, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A billion? Exaggeration gets you nowhere? Most of your links are the iTunes ones you gave. Care to explain HOW my ""Saban's: Power Rangers: Megaforce" argument doesn't hold water"? Or any of the other points we've made, especially the part where you can't make up your own damn mind as to which angle you're going for (Common usage vs. grammatically correct)? AlsoShout Factory product description for seasons 8-12 13-17 and 4-7--Harmony944 (talk) 14:23, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have multiple sources that back up claims, beyond just the long list of iTunes links. You're just using the fact that "Saban's" is in the logotype as a way to discredit my argument. I've been saying that the grammatically correct usage of the colon is common usage. And I'm not sure if Shout Factory is a reliable source or just another one of your official sources because of their deal with Saban.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 14:55, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You have them? Why not share them? Or are they too obscure and out of the loop to really back up your claims based on what we've already told you? If you're going to discard our sources for illegitimate reasons, then we can legitimately discard yours. You used the Logotype to justify the colon before, which means I have every right to turn that reason against you. After all, that's the point of an argument, isn't it? And I looked on the US Amazon for Power Rangers listings. All colonless in the season titles. You only used the UK listings. So that source is also neutralized. Considering how you keep changing what sources you're looking for, you only feel like you're winning because you're sending us out to do all the work while you sit there changing the rules--Harmony944 (talk) 15:17, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I posted them already. And I'm simply calling into question Shout Factory as a source. UK Amazon, Canada Amazon, iTunes internationally all have colons. And I've not changed any rules. I found sources that fit in with Wikipedia's rules. You've only gone from official website to official website to attempt to discredit me with those.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 15:32, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia's rules? You lost sight of those a loooooong time ago when "reliable sources" turned into "reliable third party sources". The fact is that you just proved Amazon is an unreliable source... and upon further review of Amazon UK... they are unreliable within its own system. They used coloned, uncoloned and hyphened series titles! And you have the balls to tell us our sources are wrong?--Harmony944 (talk) 16:11, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

So let me get this straight: you're saying that first-party sources close to the people who actually named the seasons are less reliable than sources removed from that process? In what universe's form of logic does that make sense? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.61.229.238 (talk) 15:45, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Have either of you read WP:V or WP:RS? "Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." And WP:COMMONNAME states "Wikipedia prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources) as such names will be the most recognizable and the most natural", with a pointer back to WP:SOURCES, which again says "Base articles on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." That's how things work here. We do not have to rely on the official trademarked name of something as an article title. Not to mention this isn't like the drastic change that Harmony944 has made it out to be. And I've never said your sources are wrong, Harmony944. I just said they aren't the preferred ones for Wikipedia. Just because you found one website that has internal inconsistencies does not detract from my argument. They have colons in the titles on some, but not all, while other sources I've provided have colons for those.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:49, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the discussion ender: The titles of the shows are also the team names. What organization has an actual colon in their name? (Not the word "colon", but the punctuation mark.) A casual Google search says no. It's not a matter of notability so much as it is a matter of logic; the season titles are the names of the teams. The Power Rangers of Season 4 are the Power Rangers Zeo. Season 6's Rangers are the Power Rangers in Space (though it could also be acceptable to call them the Space Power Rangers, but that's not relevant here). While there are various ways you can shorten each individual Ranger's name into forms not resembling the show title, when they come together they are the Power Rangers Mystic Force, or Power Rangers SPD, or Power Rangers Time Force. That is the team's name. No colon is necessary, and to use a colon is to actually disrupt the verbal flow of calling each team's name.--Shadowbird 14:40, 18 July 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.61.229.238 (talk • contribs)

"Zeo Power Rangers" and the like are more common names for the teams than "Power Rangers Zeo" in the discourse I've seen. And there's no reason that a show's name and the collective group of people the show is about would have to have the same punctuation.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 14:55, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The show title and team name are the more formal version, usually only reserved for either the initial introduction, team-ups, or final battles. Every other time, people tend to use a more informal construction. As for the team name and title having the same punctuation, yes, they would, because you'd say them the same way. Colons indicate a substantial pause, and no one says "Power Rangers...Megaforce" (except for rare times in the show when there's a need to be emphatic). The season's unique designators (Zeo, In Space, Lost Galaxy, etc.) flow directly from the words "Power Rangers", because that sounds a lot more natural to say "Power Rangers Megaforce" than to say "Power Rangers...Megaforce". Whether it's the team or the show you're referring to, there's no pause in the middle, and therefore no colon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.61.229.238 (talk) 15:15, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A colon doesn't indicate a substantial pause. It indicates a subtitle.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 15:32, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And if you spoke an actual subtitle out loud, there would be a pause before it. "Thor: the Dark World" is not pronounced the same as it would be if it were "Thor the Dark World" (that second one also makes no grammatical sense). By contrast, it makes perfect grammatical sense to say "Power Rangers Megaforce" as opposed to "Power Rangers: Megaforce" because there is no separation. ...Unless you actually do actively pronounce a pause between "Power Rangers" and each season's unique designator, which if you do, universe help you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.61.229.238 (talk) 15:40, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's a subtitle designator and that's that, as per Colon (punctuation)#Appositive and Subtitle (titling). Whether or not it's spoken with a pause (as it often is in the theme music if you want to keep going back to official sources) doesn't matter.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:49, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to go by that logic, then it should be pronounced "Power Rangers: ME! GA! FORCE!" Sounds stupid, doesn't it? That's because songwriters generally play with pronunciations and syllable counts for the sake of either meter, artistic license, rhyme scheme, or emphasis. Thus, using the music as an indicator to how it's supposed to really be pronounced is a bit of a stretch.Shadowbird712 (talk) 17:29, 18 July 2014 (UTC)Shadowbird712[reply]

I'm not even using it as a full reason here.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:40, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Section break

And really, why does it matter so much to you guys that I'm proposing the addition of this single punctuation mark? The inclusion is not such a drastic change like Harmony944's Benjamin Franklin analogy. It's introducing a proper piece of punctuation that is missing from Wikipedia because of the fandom's hatred for it and for whatever reason the trademarking for reasons that it's not our place to question, but is present in several sources independent of the trademark holders. This has made no sense to me. What is it about these two dots that caused this flame war?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:54, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

We've never flamed. You're the one cursing people out and using such terms as "Hate boner" basically means you're willing to ignore all logic. You have changed your story so many times, used pisspoor sources and force us to use even poorer sources just to get revenge against the Power Rangers fandom. All over a single punctuation mark. You proposed the move, therefore you're the one making the big deal out of it in the first place--Harmony944 (talk) 17:21, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Let's see here: you're suggesting an edit that makes no grammatical sense and makes saying the titles sound awkward. You're basing this on sources that are inconsistent and pretty far removed from the intent of the show's creators. And on top of that, you're advocating a change that is completely unnecessary, because at best it would change nothing. And you wonder why there are people debating you on this. Think about that.Shadowbird712 (talk) 17:24, 18 July 2014 (UTC)Shadowbird[reply]

Harmony944, you were the one to start cursing days ago. And the intent of the show's creators is not known. The move should be inconsequential but because of past disputes it had to be raised in the proper channel. The punctuation mark should be in place in these titles just as it is for Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope or Mario Kart: Super Circuit. There's nothing that suggests that it should be Power Rangers Megaforce (et al) aside from the trademark, which is not what is (generally) followed on Wikipedia, anyway. Common usage, and common sense when it comes to punctuation, should prevail on Wikipedia.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:40, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

So your entire argument is "You started it! I don't know what you're talking about!" even when you don't cite where I allegedly used expletives? Wow, you're drowning in denial. I literally just spoke with Shout Factory about this. Yes, I'm going to these lengths for this stupidity you've brought.

"Hey @ShoutFactory, do the post-Mighty Morphin' seasons of Power Rangers officially have colons after the "Power Rangers" portion?

"@[Harmony944] Grammatically, they do, but the title treatments wouldn't include punctuation"

"@ShoutFactory So if someone were to propose moving all-post MMPR season Wikipedia page titles to add the colon, that'd be wrong, correct?"

"@[Harmony944] It's correct if in text like "Mighty Morphin Power Rangers: Season 1, Vol. 2" or "Power Rangers: Seasons 4-7"."

"@ShoutFactory But not in "Power Rangers: Zeo" or "Power Rangers: Megaforce" right?"

"@[Harmony944] Right"

In summary, they get your grammar argument, but it doesn't apply here--Harmony944 (talk) 17:59, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have to cite where you used expletives when they're all over the thread prior to my usage of them. And your communication doesn't count either. In fact, I'm pretty sure there are rules against that.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 18:05, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

But if it's entirely necessary here's a "bullcrap" and here's a "why the fuck" days before I lost my patience. And I'm beginning to lose my patience, again. This is now the third and fourth time you have intentionally changed my comments on this talk page. This is a section break for ease of continuing the discussion and you are not allowed to change my edits to this page, particularly where you've merged two separate comments together because they're next to each other. The list has to remain in full because I posted it and you did not. My comments are to remain in tact unless I modify them myself. Stop being disruptive.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 18:10, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

So what you're saying is "I don't know the rules, I just pull them out of my ass!" And I only used the F word once when not quoting or paraphrasing you. You've used it repeatedly like over 10 times. Stop adding unnecessary section breaks. They disrupt the conversation. So me actually doing research doesn't count and is illegal? Where? Or are you just assuming just to intimidate me? A section break is NOT A COMMENT. A section break disrupts the conversation, not what I've been doing--Harmony944 (talk) 18:13, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I know the rules. And no. You didn't do research. You directly contacted the party in question which is not allowed, as far as I am aware. It probably falls under the onus of WP:NOR but I cannot remember because the last time I was involved with such a dispute was probably years ago.

And I am adding section breaks for ease of continuing the conversation because of its sheer length. Its only disruptive when you keep removing them. So quit it.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 18:17, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Why is only how you format the conversation okay? You're not even discussing the page title anymore. You're so focused on distracting and preventing me from debating that you've stopped giving definitive facts to argue. You think your empty threats will dissuade me but they can't. Section breaks and signatures are not comments--Harmony944 (talk) 18:45, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You are not allowed to refactor anyone else's content on talk pages that drastically changes them without other people's permission. You have done this four times since I started this, twice to the list at the start and now five times to this stupid section. And I've laid all my arguments out already and I do not have to do that again.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 18:50, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going off tangent. You said:

"And that falls on the colon designating the subtitle as much as every single god damn logo and pretty much all you've shown is sticking the subtitle on a second line.'"

And my rebuttal was:

"Mighty Morphin Power Rangers should be Mighty Morphin: Power Rangers since the words Power Rangers are the subtitles"

And In Space logo has the words "In Space" on the second line, that make it the subtitles. So it should grammatically be Power Rangers: In Space. Did you forget your own argument? Also:

"And common usage dictates the usage of the colon to punctuate the subtitle, regardless of how the trademarks or other official sources format the title. That's how it works on Wikipedia."

I know it's policy, but think about it. IGN would be more reliable than an official. Amazon would be more reliable than an official. The Onion would be more reliable than an official. That is what you're basically saying. Third party sources are always going to place the colon because it is grammatically correct, not because they did their research.--Origin Poke 23:46, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support - basic English grammar: a colon separates a title from a subtitle. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 21:43, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose for the same reasons that I and others have raised the previous four times Ryulong has make this request (links to which can be found in this diff). Apparently, it's time for this one user's obsession to be denied again. JPG-GR (talk) 23:39, 19 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Evidence Analysis - I'd like to indicate that the two links mentioned in the initial proposal (diff) contain both variants of the titles - with colon (see page title, underneath video carousel) and without colon (see carousel sidebar, hover text in program carousel). This negates the claim that "With the switch to Saban, it seems that the official titles are using the colon" and shows that Nickelodeon can't stay consistent within their own site. JPG-GR (talk) 17:39, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Again?

Question for Ryulong and possibly unrelated to this specific requested move - Referring to this diff - I think the question asked at the beginning of the diff is warranted, but is being asked by the person who should be answering the question. This discussion has come up multiple times over the years (at least FOUR of which I can find: January 2012, March 2011, October 2010, March 2010), each time raised by Ryulong. Why, Ryulong, does it matter so much to you that this "additional punctuation mark" be added? An answer referring to some Wikipedia policy is not an answer to the question that I am asking - why do you return to the well, again and again? Why, when it should be abundantly clear that there is no consensus for this move to occur? Honestly, the likelihood of the community agreeing to impose a ban on you from ever requesting this move again is more likely than this requested move gaining community consensus. JPG-GR (talk) 23:36, 19 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Frankly, I think what we have is grammatically incorrect. There's no reason for it to be missing. We had it for years until there was outside disruption. Official sources should not necessarily prevail in determining how to format this title and it's just common sense that the punctuation be used. I have no clue why fans treat it like it's a change from apples to oranges as Harmony944 made plenty of analogies to.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:19, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You didn't explain why you are making this request for a fifth time rather than leaving it alone. An outsider might feel this is a case of "this area doesn't seem to have as many eyes on it anymore, maybe I can push my viewpoint through while no one's looking." This belief is unfortunately supported by the fact that this requested move went on for five days before WP:TOKU was notified of its existence.

"Outside disruption", as you call it, is the addition of numerous additional editors to Wikipedia. Earlier in the current discussion, you queried "[d]id ranger board post something because both you and harmony up there haven't edited in years" as if only "outside forces" feel that a colon is ridiculous. There has been no post on RB nor does there need to be.

You also refer to "common sense", yet since consensus cannot be gained (at least not for your side), perhaps it is not common sense? One could make the argument that the non-"Power Rangers" part of each season's title is not a subtitle at all (given that not every variant follows suit). Regardless, claims of "common sense" tend to be weak.

And as for having "no clue" why consensus never forms on your side, perhaps it is best to take a break and attempt to figure that out before making this request again? JPG-GR (talk) 13:28, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Because I wanted to see if consensus could change.

They were on Wikipedia solely for the discussion in the past. It pretty much seems to be the same case here with OriginPoke and Harmony944 who while having an established edit history here haven't done so in some time and never to Power Ranger pages before, afaik.

Consensus hasn't been gained (yet) because of days of back and forth arguing with two people and no one else has bothered to touch this mess.

Common sense and grammatical correctness are completely separate from whatever consensus may form.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:02, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to be more interested in discrediting those who oppose you (per above: those who show up merely to discuss apparently don't count and those with established edit histories who don't edit PR talk pages apparently don't count...) rather than discussing the issue. JPG-GR (talk) 17:32, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

They were people who came out of nowhere and began arguing on the fandom's behalf rather than basing arguments on our internal guidelines and policies. And it's more of the "this site is reliable Wikipedia's rules are shit" garbage that I've gone through every time there's a new season vaguely announced and it's buzzing about the "Power Force" for weeks and you and I know full well that Wikipedia can't discuss it yet, but there are people who come out of the woodwork to make it into a majority vote rather than a discussion based on policy arguments. I want these pages to be professional rather than extended fan pages. That's why I cut out all the weapon garbage. That's why I'm trying to keep the Kamen Rider and Super Sentai pages to a minimum from now on. That's why Trey of Triforia is up at AFD. Because we've let fans of the show go wild for years and now everything's coming back to bite us. The pages should have never been moved four years ago to get them in the state they are now. Keeping to a simple standard of English punctuation that's in use on multiple other websites is more important than being a stick in the mud and claiming that the punctuation suddenly makes the title of the pages wrong and unofficial.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:42, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"They were people who came out of nowhere and began arguing on the fandom's behalf"? Much like you have emerged again as seemingly the only person who desires the presence of these colon so much. Ignoring the majority of the rest of what you said (which has no relevance to the proposed move being discussed but does show a tad bit of ownership of the material in question), from where I'm sitting, the only person who seems to be a stick in the mud would be you - old-fashioned and unprogressive, clinging to a policy that may or may not even apply in this situation, as the unquestionable word of some Almighty rather than listening to what other users have to say and trying to see both sides. There are no colons in the titles of the seasons (which is, at least as far as I am concerned, because they are not subtitles...). We've played this game multiple times before - you can produce your colon sources (as above) and others will provide plenty of counter non-colon sources (as above). This is a waste of everyone's energy and time. JPG-GR (talk) 18:49, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever. I've not changed anyone's minds this time either. All that's happened is that Harmony944 and I were blocked and I managed to create a honeypot for a banned user.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 18:51, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Controversy/reception?

Is it wise to include any mention that Super Megaforce was not well-received by the fans of the series, as well as mention that it had led to the departure of Jonathan Tzachor (assuming sources might exist for this)?--Loyalmoonie (talk) 03:04, 14 March 2016 (UTC)Chris[reply]

I have asked the same question on one of my discussions...don!t know if it has been covered or not...should have looked before writing the discussion gg XXDeathStarXx (talk) 15:41, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Power Ranger Super Megaforce

Hey guys, Does anyone know if we have covered Power Ranger Super Megaforce???If not I could cover a few essentials of the article...thanks:)

XXDeathStarXx (talk) 15:39, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]