Talk:Lunar Roving Vehicle

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old talk[edit]

Who invented the lunar rover?

LRV Deployment procedure diagram is referenced in the text however the diagram is not included in the entry. The detail of the text is excellent and informative.

Did the astronauts take critical components from the rovers back with them or deactive them before they left? i.e. If a future mission were to land near the Apollo sites would it be possible they'd still work and someone could just "hop on" and drive them again?

The Rover was developed by Boeing with help from Delco and GM (the automobile mfg.) If the batteries were replaced, it is possible they would still continue to work. 05:32, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I am interested into more details about how the luna rovers where stowed in the lander. The rovers seem so large compared to the available storage space. Are there any photographs of the folded up rovers etc. 15:42, 23 June 2007 (UTC) Peter Howell

Ferenc Pavlics "invented" the lunar rover: 1969-1972 Santa Barbara, California, Engineering Manager, Lunar Roving Vehicle Programs at AC Electronics. Responsibilities included the design, development and testing of the Mobility System for the Apollo Lunar Roving Vechicle used succesfully on the Apollo 15, 16 and 17 lunar exploration missions. The program included the design, development and testing of the space qualified equipment as well as a complete Training Vehicle used in the 1 g environments on earth.

According to the Science Channel's "Moon Machines", General Motors' Defense Research and Development Center was largely responsible for the unique "fold-up" design of the rover while Boeing was responsible for its construction. The unique design was developed after NASA's original efforts to take a vehicle to the moon had been largely abandoned. The original vehicle, equipped with an environmental capsule for multi-week trips, had reached a weight of 8,000 US lbs. The addition of 8,000 lbs of weight would have necessitated an unmanned trip to the moon to pre-position the vehicle for later astronaut use. NASA administrators considered this option too costly. In response, GM employees developed the fold-up design that fit in an unused LEM instrument compartment. See "additional information" for a link to photos of the lunar rover unfolding on the moon. (talk) 10:32, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Expansion / Other Rovers[edit]

Can someone add a bit about other versions of the LR considered? Also, are rovers concepts being worked on yet for Constellation? CFLeon 04:26, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. There were and are a heap of different proposed designs. Hell, there's a whole competition over it. Where's the general article for that? -- PaulxSA (talk) 03:13, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

The general article is at Rover (space exploration). (sdsds - talk) 03:26, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
Saw that, it doesn't add anything other than unmanned rovers. What I'm talking about is the various manned rovers proposed for Apollo (that weren't flown because they lost bidding, or were too heavy/dangerous), and the many manned lunar rovers proposed since then. (For example, from Apollo: Grumman Aircraft's "MOLAB", TRW's "Mooncopter", I'm sure there were more.) -- PaulxSA (talk) 14:24, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Bit of googling found this at astronautix, there were more designs than you can shake a stick at, yet nothing here (not even a reference to how competitive the competition for the Apollo rover was.) -- PaulxSA (talk) 14:32, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Proposed move (2007)[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I propose moving this article to Lunar rover (Apollo), and then making the article with this name a disambiguation page. There needs to also be coverage of the missions shown on {{Lunar Rovers}}. (sdsds - talk) 14:28, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Current status[edit]

Where is the buggy now and what is it's presnt state? TomGreen 22:21, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

It would be good for the article to cover this better. It currently reads, "Four lunar rovers were built, one each for Apollo missions 15, 16, and 17, and one that was used for spare parts after the cancellation of further Apollo missions. There were other LRV models built: a static model to assist with human factors design, an engineering model to design and integrate the subsystems, two 1/6 gravity models for testing the deployment mechanism, a 1-gravity trainer to give the astronauts instruction in the operation of the rover and allow them to practice driving it, a mass model to test the effect of the rover on the Apollo Lunar Module (LM) structure, balance and handling, a vibration test unit to study the LRV's durability and handling of launch stresses, and a qualification test unit to study integration of all LRV subsystems."
The three used for the Apollo missions are still on the surface of the Moon. (This is already mentioned later in the article.) It would be neat to include information about the fate of the test models, if a reliable source for that information could be found. (sdsds - talk) 22:26, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Any concensus on this?[edit]

One anonymous user seems to feel it neccessary to specify the land rover picture is "supposedly" on the moon. Am I wrong in assuming this view probably doesn't reflect the general consensus here, or am I way off base? - Vianello (talk) 01:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Your understanding is correct: use of the word "supposedly" is not appropriate in that caption. (sdsds - talk) 02:38, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
There are many credible people claiming that the moon landing is a hoax (see the article "Apollo Moon Landing Hoax"). How do we KNOW for certain that it wasn't set up at a movie studio sound stage? We don't. that's why it's "supposedly" taken on the moon. If we state it as a fact, then we do a disservice to the readers of Wikipedia on not being unbiased. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 02:48, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

The only credible people (in terms of education etc) are those two Russian scientists. BUT neither belong to Russia's space program (they are the ones in a position to talk, and they back the landings). One has a bizarre theory that the Saturn V was really a disguised Saturn 1B, but uses gobbledygook to explain it. The other one claims the Saturn V velocity at staging was only half the quoted figure, but apparently doesn't correct his figures for altitude or atmospheric density, and his estimate is supposedly taken from extrapolating from a film. What neither explain is how the chemical signature of the Apollo moon rocks match that of the Russian sample returns. Kaysing isn't really credible. For one he was a technical writer rather than an engineer or physicist. But perhaps even more importantly, he left Rocketdyne in 1964. Of course there would have been a lot of doubts as to whether Kennedy's deadline was achievable at the time, as there were so many things that needed to be tested. I don't doubt that someone who left the Manhattan Project in late 1942 would have doubted that they'd be able to have a working atomic bomb by the end of 1945 too. The other hoaxers are either self styled people (Rene), conspiratorialists, fantasists, or one or two photographers who don't seem to realise that the reason why you can see objects in shadows on earth is more to do light reflected from surrounding surfaces than scattered by the atmosphere. They also neglect the fact that film emulsions have been used to take photographs of atmospheric A-Bomb and H-Bomb tests which emitted far more intense radiation than you'd get on the moon. As a final word. The insane logic is that today's technology can't land on the moon, so it couldn't happen in the 1960's. It isn't a question of superior computing power, but of rocket LIFTING POWER. Look at it this way. Would you say the early 17th century had better technology than today because you can't drive your car across the Atlantic, but the Mayflower managed it? No Government since 1972 has been willing to fund a manned lunar flight, and that is why we can't do it tomorrow. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 13:36, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

You are correct, and those views are well covered at Apollo Moon Landing hoax conspiracy theories. It doesn't make sense to rehash here a discussion of those views, but you might want to also look at the article on the Lunar Laser Ranging Experiment, which allows scientists on Earth (lots of them, not just a conspiratorial few) to use retroreflectors placed on the Moon's surface to exactly determine the distance to the Moon. Retroreflectors don't exist naturally on the Moon's surface; something placed them there! (sdsds - talk) 03:33, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
The Lunar Laser Ranging Experiment doesn't prove anything. 1) If the moon landing was faked, couldn't the LLRE have been faked too? 2) if LLRE is real, it could've been placed there by a robot or just dropped on the moon without man actually landing there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 06:36, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

There are many credulous people, not credible, who believe the moon landing was faked. This discussion here is pretty silly. I mean how do you really know that you're in front of a computer, looking at the talk page of a wikipeadia article. You could be dreaming, or worse, you could have been kidnapped, placed in an isolation chamber, and have electrodes in your brain inducing your wikipeadia experience as mere halucination. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 22:07, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

The problem is, we DON'T state anything as fact. It's just a picture of the lunar rover. The picture's caption said nothing about where it is, or what it's doing. Why bother adding that it's a picture on the moon for the pure purpose of then immediately disputing that claim? It would be like adding to a caption of a photo of John F. Kennedy, "Supposedly assassinated by a lone gunman." Yes, it's true, and yes, it's supposed, but what purpose does it serve to say that? It's not really fair, appropriate, productive, or necessary to assert a fact just purely to cast aspersions on it when that's not even the topic of the page. I probably sound way more hostile than I intend to when I say this, but it really seems like this attempt to make the picture "objective" is just an attempt to smuggle in a POV comment. It corrects a subjectivity problem that didn't exist before the 'correction' was made. - Vianello (talk) 09:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

On a side note, let's keep on-topic. This isn't meant to be a debate over whether anyone ever did anything on any celestial body besides Earth. This is PURELY a discussion about whether or not to include a comment that at least two users so far have stated they find dubious (not in its truth, but in its constructiveness and intent). - Vianello (talk) 09:58, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, and just outright accusing it of being on a sound stage has all the exact same problems. It's just more honest about the angle. Which is a small improvement, I guess? - Vianello (talk) 06:23, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
The point is that a caption to a photo is not the forum to bring up the controversy. CFLeon (talk) 21:14, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
One does not mention the controversy if OJ Simpson was guilty in every picture of him; or whether Jesus really lived or not, let alone if he was the Son of God, in every picture of him. CFLeon (talk) 00:00, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Stars in lunar photos[edit]

Pardon my ignorance--but why are no stars visible in any of the photos/videos on this page? I'd imagine the negligible atmosphere on the moon should allow a clearer view of celestial bodies than on Earth. What's up with that? -VM

It was daytime!

That sounds condescending, but it is the actual answer. Because there is no atmosphere, the sky is dark, so it's very deceptive. But the sun is above the horizon, so the ground and everything else is lit up like your backyard in full sunlight (In fact, without atmosphere, the sunlight is slightly brighter, and isn't dimmed when low in the sky.) Cameras have to be "stopped" down to avoid over-exposure. Even your eye would be fully light-adapted, you wouldn't see the stars unless you stood in a shadow for awhile (The next clear night, shine a torch into your face for a few minutes, then look up. See how long you have to wait before your eyes adjust. And torches are nowhere near as bright as reflected sunlight.) If you go hunting around for shuttle/space-station missions, you see the same effect. That make sense? -- PaulxSA (talk) 03:10, 21 August 2009 (UTC)


If there are still Lunar Rovers on the moon - why were they not reused - the team would only have to take replacement batteries and reuse? has any pictures ever been published showing an old Lunar landing site? —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 09:43, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Each Apollo landing was at a different site, up to hundreds of miles apart, and the rovers were not able to be driven unmanned from Earth. CFLeon (talk) 21:14, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Rover design[edit]

I recall reading MANY (30ish) years ago that Boeing based the rover on the chassis of a lightweight mechanical harvester designed for use on wet sloping ground. Can anybody confirm this? (talk) 01:53, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Some of the new rovers (NASA)[edit]


Small Pressurized Rover (SPR)


Eduardo San Juan - controversial and unsupported by references[edit]

I've been watching the recent changes and reverts around Eduardo San Juan, and have been doing a bit of digging around. While it looks like there was an Eduardo San Juan associated in some way with NASA and the LRV, the evidence doesn't support him having the central role that's been posited in some of the entries. Whereas Bekker and Pavlic are easy to find in a lot of referencable material on the LRV (pre and post apollo work on vehicle development), San Juan is somewhat of a void. Except for eg this [legend debunk] site ...

I'm reworking some of the historical section, and in this I'm planning to remove any mention of San Juan. If you have references which can be cited to show that Eduardo San Juan was indeed a central figue in the development of the LRV, please add them here so we don't erroneously write him out of history. Lissajous (talk) 11:56, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Ok - I know I didn't leave much time for anyone, but before a war starts I've removed the San Juan references until someone comes up with verification. FWIW, here's the block removed:
Eduardo San Juan, a filipino from Mapua Institute in Manila is considered the primary designer of the Lunar Rover.[citation needed] He was also the designer for the Articulated Wheel System. Prior to the Apollo Program he worked on the Intercontinental Ballistic Missile (ICBM).
Lissajous (talk) 13:52, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

There's some pretty useful stuff [here] on actual contributions from San Juan. It might be useful in a section on alternative ideas for LRVs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lissajous (talkcontribs) 15:23, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

So basically this article is confirming that the claim by Filipinos of Eduardo San Juan being the inventor of the Lunar Rover used in the three Apollo Missions is a myth, isn't it? (talk) 08:46, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

We're not confirming any such thing; we're simply ignoring the claim, per our Fringe theories guideline. JustinTime55 (talk) 14:45, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Power converter[edit]

Looking at Lyons' claims for a 22.4 mi (36.0 km) trip (p.78), I wonder if he didn't confuse mi & km, & turn 57km into 57mi... Anybody able to confirm & correct it? TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 10:21, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Proposed move (2010)[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved to Lunar rover (Apollo). Arbitrarily0 (talk) 04:48, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Lunar Rover VehicleLunar Roving Vehicle — This is the specific, proper, recognized name for the vehicle. Lunar Rover Vehicle is a less formal name used mainly in outside sources (not NASA). I will move if no objection comes forth. Tyrol5 [Talk] 19:49, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Mass of Rover[edit]

The article states 'The Lunar Roving Vehicle had a mass of 463 lbs (210 kg)[5]', reference 5 states that this mass would be lower (77 lbs or 35kg) on the moon. This is incorrect - the mass of the Rover is the same wherever it is but its weight varies. The reference should be removed.

Butterfish41 (talk) 14:02, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Wheels can't support rover mass in 1G?[edit]

I was a preteen during the missions on which the rovers were used, and I distinctly recall hearing that the wheels could not support the rover's unloaded mass (let alone with two adult men in EVA suits aboard) in standard Earth gravity without deforming. Is that true? Could anyone confirm, please? It would be an interesting nugget to add to the page, if it could be supported. (talk) 14:48, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Not sure, but it would be the weight it couldn't support.
Just briefly mass is a property all material things have. It's the amount of "stuff" making up an object.
Gravity is a field pulling downward. When an object with mass is under the influence of gravity, this creates a downward force, called weight. I can understand the confusion, sometimes when physics teachers are trying to get you out of the habit of referring to "mass" as "weight", it goes a bit too far and you end up afraid to use "weight" even when it's appropriate.
The amount of stuff / mass of the rover is the same anywhere in the Universe, the downward force on the wheels depends on the strength of gravity where it is.
This is important even in orbit where things appear weightless. They're not actually weightless, they're just in free-fall, but that's another issue for now. The point is, for astronauts handling, say, a 1-ton satellite, although it has no weight, it still has mass. And therefore inertia. So pushing and pulling it still takes a lot of strength and energy! Astronauts can get worn out quickly doing "heavy" work, even when it's weightless!
It's a shame I can't answer your point about the wheels not being strong enough, since it's really interesting! I suppose you could check the unladen weight vs laden, see if the difference is anything like 6X. And again, it's not just the downward pull of weight that matters, the forces of driving the rover around will apply in all sorts of directions, causing all sorts of stresses. Sorry about not knowing more! (talk) 19:22, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
All you advance is true, but the original question was about supporting mass in standard Earth gravity, which *is* weight: weight = mg, (@ Earth's surface), or G(m1)(m2)/r∧2 (generally). --Badger151 (talk) 21:41, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 2011[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 15:13, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Lunar rover (Apollo)Lunar Roving Vehicle — Lunar Roving Vehicle is the official name. Lunar rover (Apollo) is too similar to lunar rover. --Jokessongs (talk) 17:50, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

  • Cautious support Lunar Roving Vehicle or Lunar roving vehicle (per WP:MOSCAP) since it is also the official name. As far as WP:COMMONNAME I am not too sure. Doing a preliminary Google search, Lunar Roving Vehicle appears to be mostly connected to the Apollo lunar rover while Lunar rover is sometimes associated with other rovers such as Lunokhod. The ghits for both terms appear in similar numbers. But I haven't checked in depth. Dr.K. λogosπraxis 01:18, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose "lunar rover" apollo gives 300kghits, while "lunar roving vehicle" only gives 100kghits. (talk) 05:28, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Support. Lunar rover might be the best title, but since that's now taken by another more generic article (since September), the legitimate alternative name Lunar Roving Vehicle (a redirect since 2004) should be preferred to a constructed title using parentheses. Station1 (talk) 17:11, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Support per Station1. --GW 22:38, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
  • Support per wp:precise, use natural disambiguators. An Apollo Program "Lunar Roving Vehicle" is a specific model of lunar rover. walk victor falk talk 14:17, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Too confusing[edit]

Note that I didn't add the maintenance tag. I am merely copying the edit summary of the anonymous user who did so that it doesn't get lost in the edit history. howcheng {chat} 05:48, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

There are too many acronyms in this article here, and too much minutae, making it difficult to follow. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs) 03:48, 19 May 2013‎ (UTC)

Why doesn't the article mention where it was created?[edit]

The Moon Buggy was created in the Philippines. Curious why it's not mentioned in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Presidentbalut (talkcontribs) 12:49, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Probably because no reliable sources happen to mention this. Do you have one? What do you mean by "created"? Was perhaps some part made there? The article does say it was made by a company in Alabama, USA. JustinTime55 (talk) 21:37, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
This issue has been dealt with in the Eduardo San Juan thread, see above. JustinTime55 (talk) 16:04, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

LEM center of gravity[edit]

The LEM is finely balanced on a single rocket motor, the addition of 210kg on one side would be catastrophic to the LEM control, so the article needs to address how the counterbalancing was done by NASA before the flight. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 21:35, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Georg von Tiesenhausen[edit]

Here and here it is said that Georg von Tiesenhausen was a primary designer of the LRV -- is there any reliable reference? Should he be mentioned in the article? Sincerely, (talk) 13:21, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

That's the first I've heard of that. The name I've always heard as the developer is Ferenc Pavlics, who apparently still has the remote control scale model for his design that he built and then drove into von Braun's office to show him how it worked.Almostfm (talk) 06:29, 10 April 2017 (UTC)