Talk:Murder of XXXTentacion

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This article was nominated for merging with XXXTentacion on June 20, 2018. The result of the discussion was Keep.

This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

No consensus, 13 August 2022, to Murder of XXXTentacion, see discussion.
Moved, 20 March 2023, to Murder of XXXTentacion, see discussion.

Michael Boatwright was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 13 April 2023 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Murder of XXXTentacion on 5 October 2023. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.

“Murder” or “Killing”?

Should the title of the article be “Murder of XXXTentacion” or “Killing of XXXTentacion”? The original title of the article was the former. The vast majority of sources refer to the incident as a murder, however there have been no murder convictions yet as the trial(s) of the four suspects have not yet started. WP:COMMONNAME appears to be “Murder” but another user insists on changing it to “Killing”. What is the community’s consensus on this? TheXuitts (talk) 05:57, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Only decide the term when the trial is over. It has just started. HaydenWong (talk) 16:42, 12 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I believe “Murder” is appropriate while at the same time not stating culpability of the suspects until their convictions. TheXuitts (talk) 06:01, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Naming this page as "murder" goes against Wikipedia:Naming conventions (violence and deaths), which requires a "conviction for murder" before the page can be named "Murder of .....". WWGB (talk) 06:15, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

“Editors should only resort to this flowchart when such efforts fail or a consensus cannot be reached on what the COMMONNAME is from among the reliable secondary sources.”

Almost every source describes this as a murder. This is clearly the CommonName and this was not disputed until the original change to “Killing” nearly 4 years after the article’s creation. TheXuitts (talk) 06:27, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The naming convention is pretty clear on this, there is no conviction. By the way you are incorrect about the original name of this article, it was "shooting". Polyamorph (talk) 10:52, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That part is my bad, but almost every source describes this as a murder. TheXuitts (talk) 11:44, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Re "almost every source describes this as a murder". Here are 20 sources that do not describe the event as a murder, but merely describe the charge as murder: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17], [18], [19], [20]. WWGB (talk) 13:16, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, most of the 63 sources cited in this article describe the event as a killing or shooting, with only the charge described as murder. Polyamorph (talk) 13:33, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There has now been a murder conviction. Please participate in the most recent discussion. TheXuitts (talk) 03:11, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Follow the instructions at WP:RSPM to create a new requested move section at the bottom of this Talk Page and it will bring editors here to participate. There's a good chance it would be successful. However, one argument that must be considered against moving would be that technically, only one of the four pled guilty to murder (specifically second degree non-premeditated murder), while the other three haven't been tried or convicted yet. Since part of the reason why we don't rush to rename articles from "killing of..." to "murder of..." is to avoid making named individuals look guilty on Wikipedia until they've been convicted in a court of law, it may be problematic for BLP reasons which would caution sticking with "killing of...." until the other three cases resolve. To be determined in an RM after other editors weigh the situation and a new consensus emerges... Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 03:51, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have started a new request. I encourage all users to particulate so we can form a consensus. TheXuitts (talk) 21:43, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 13 August 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. There are WP:CRYSTALBALL problems over whether the guilty plea will lead to a guilty verdict or conviction. Seems too soon for this to be resolved clearly. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 19:51, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Killing of XXXTentacion → Murder of XXXTentacion – On Friday, August 12, Robert Allen, one of the four defendants in the XXXTentacion murder case, has pleaded guilty to second-degree murder.^[1] The consensus previously was that the name should not be changed from “Killing of” to “Murder of” until there is a murder conviction, and now there is one. The argument against this would be that not all four defendants have been convicted, but this does not fit precedent, take Murder of George Floyd for example, where only one of the defendants was convicted for the title to be changed from “Killing” to “Murder”. After the conviction Friday, Jahseh Onfroy a.k.a. XXXTentacion, legally, was murdered. The title should now be changed to “Murder of XXXTentacion”. TheXuitts (talk) 04:08, 13 August 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 05:39, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Is pleading guilty the same as being convicted? Is there a relevant style guide that recommends which to use? Fredlesaltique (talk) 12:16, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There is an explanatory supplement at WP:DEATHS which supports the proposed title. This can be overruled by the policy at WP:COMMONNAME. 162 etc. (talk) 13:37, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If pleading guilty counts as being convicted, then I would support changing the title. If not, then I would leave it as "killing" or "death" until someone is convicted. Fredlesaltique (talk) 15:45, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, pleading guilty counts as a conviction.

Someone is convicted of a crime by A) going to trial and being found guilty, or B) pleading guilty.

Robert Allen has pleaded guilty to murder, and therefor has been convicted of the charge. TheXuitts (talk) 15:56, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I know, pleading guilty is, at least in theory, not always the same thing as being convicted. It is hypothetically possible for someone to plead guilty and yet have the charges be dropped or have the plea rejected by the court before a conviction takes place. For example, after someone enters a guilty plea, the judge typically asks them a few questions to make sure they understand what pleading guilty means and to make sure that the plea submission was voluntary. If the person does not respond appropriately to those questions, the judge may not accept the plea. Also, a person could plead guilty and then have someone else suddenly discovered to have been the perpetrator (or to have it discovered that no crime had occurred) before the plea is accepted. There are two steps to the process – the plea, followed by the conviction (or lack of conviction). But my understanding is that no such special exceptions apply in this case. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:53, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ "Plea Deal Struck in 2018 Murder of Rapper XXXTentacion in Pompano Beach".

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 20 March 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. Universal support with no opposition. (non-admin closure) Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 01:12, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Killing of XXXTentacion → Murder of XXXTentacion – All defendants have been found guilty of the murder. This was the reason it was not called "murder" before and was called "killing". TheXuitts (talk) 18:40, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support and speedy close This seems like a non-controversial move to me now that the guilty verdicts have been rendered. Rreagan007 (talk) 01:49, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. 〜 Festucalex • talk 05:51, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. SeanJ 2007 (talk) 09:58, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. Pretty straightforward to me. TheAmazingRaspberry (talk) 11:15, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom and WP:MURDERS. The flowchart is straightforward. – The Grid (talk) 16:19, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Fast support - Uncontroversial. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 16:33, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. ItsMario97 (talk) 00:29, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. The latter title is better. MusiBedrock (talk) 06:19, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy move as per WP:MURDERS. If I had the technical ability to implement this, I'd close this. {{ping|ClydeFranklin}} (t/c) 23:34, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[1] "Plea Deal Struck in 2018 Murder of Rapper XXXTentacion in Pompano Beach".

[1]