Talk:Paul Hunter (soccer, born 1956)

Requested move 26 March 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Paul Hunter (American soccer). There is a definite consensus to move this, to avoid confusion with the Scottish football (soccer) player, but also definitely no consensus as to whether to label him "Canadian soccer" or "American soccer". Apologies if this seems like a "supervote", but given the consensus to move, someone has to pick one or the other, and I find the argument for American soccer slightly more compelling, specifically that he grew up in, and has played all his soccer in, the United States, not in Canada. Hence I'm moving it to the "American soccer" version, but with no prejudice against a review of that decision, or a further RM to move to "Canadian soccer" if people object to my decision here. Thanks (non-admin closure)  — Amakuru (talk) 10:56, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Moved to Paul Hunter (Canadian soccer). Per consensus in the discussion below, at Talk:Paul Hunter (Canadian soccer)#American soccer or Canadian soccer, I am changing my close to have the article at "Canadian soccer" rather than "American soccer".  — Amakuru (talk) 11:40, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

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Paul Hunter (soccer) → Paul Hunter (Canadian soccer player) – there is another soccer player with an article, Paul Hunter (footballer), so this disambiguation is ambiguous, and fails WP:PRECISE since it does not sufficiently disambiguate to determine the topic of the article. The current title should redirect to the disambiguation page Paul Hunter (disambiguation) -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 12:59, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Support I am the nominator. The dialectal difference does not help the readership determine the topic of the article, as some dialects of English use both "soccer" and "footballer" the difference between the two titles is zero. Therefore additional disambiguation is required to determine the topic of the article. -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 13:02, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support, I think that useful informative description should be included as standard in parenthesis type disambiguations in a similar way as informative subtitles are used in Britannica articles such as:
  • Thierry Henry French football player - Thierry Henry, in full Thierry Daniel Henry (born August 17, 1977, Châtillon, France), French football (soccer) player who scored more international goals than any other player in France’s history and who is considered one of the most prolific goal scorers of his time.
  • Wayne Rooney British football player - Wayne Rooney, in full Wayne Mark Rooney (born October 24, 1985, Liverpool, England), English professional football (soccer) player who rose to international football stardom as a teenager while playing with the English Premier League powerhouse Manchester United.

good call GregKaye 13:17, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. I think this is problematic because he has played solely for U.S. clubs, and given that he grew up in the States, is probably American. I think it better here to disambiguate by position: Paul Hunter (soccer defender) and Paul Hunter (football forward) or year of birth: Paul Hunter (soccer player, born 1956) and Paul Hunter (footballer, born 1968). DrKay (talk) 11:12, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
• Comment - "Canadian soccer" would be the best here. Unreal7 (talk) 17:32, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

• He doesn't play Canadian soccer, or soccer in Canada or soccer for Canada. DrKay (talk) 17:54, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
• No one's going to think that - See Eddie Johnson (American soccer). Unreal7 (talk) 20:58, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

• I don't follow. Eddie Johnson was born in America, holds American citizenship and plays/ed for American national teams. My argument is that an American player should not be at a Canadian title. It's like forcing Mo Farah to be at "Mo Farah (Somali athlete)" when he only runs for Britain. It is inappropriate in my view to categorise emigrant sportspeople by birth place. They should be categorised by sporting nationality, if by nationality at all. DrKay (talk) 21:18, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

• I agree with Unreal7 that Paul Hunter (Canadian soccer) would be best here. Canadian soccer is based on nationality, which for this player is Canadian. – Michael (talk) 19:42, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

• How about Paul Hunter (North American soccer) then? George Ho (talk) 08:13, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

• Fine by me. DrKay (talk) 08:52, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
• Or Support Paul Hunter (American soccer), since the disambiguation is by sport and per the disambiguation guideline people should be disambiguated by what they are known for. DrKay (talk) 21:29, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support Paul Hunter (American soccer). Sources like this that discuss Hunter discuss him entirely in the context of soccer in the U.S.: he played at the high school and college level in Connecticut, and played on American teams at the pro level in the NASL. Considering he went to school in Connecticut it's likely he's an American citizen as well. But regardless, the article needs to move to avoid confusion with the Scottish player.--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:46, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

But his nationality is not American, it's Canadian. – Michael (talk) 08:40, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

I tend to doubt that. Considering he's been in the U.S. since childhood, including all of his noteworthy soccer-playing years, it's very likely he's an American citizen.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:50, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

• Move to Paul Hunter (Canadian soccer) – The football project does not disambiguate by the country the player was based in, it disambiguates by nationality. – Michael (talk) 07:46, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

• It disambiguates by sporting nationality: hence players are at "Welsh", "Scottish" and "English" not "British". Otherwise, Neil Clarke (American soccer) and Willie McLean (American soccer) would be Scottish or British, Paul Kitson (American soccer) would be English or British, George Anderson (Canadian soccer) and Jimmy Douglas (Canadian soccer) would be Scottish or British, John Hughes (Canadian soccer) would be Welsh or British, Carl Fletcher (Canadian soccer) would be Montserratian, Andy Williams (Jamaican footballer) would be Canadian, and so on. DrKay (talk) 09:09, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

• That's what I said. Which is why I'm saying the disambiguation for this page should be Canadian. Even this link says he's Canadian. – Michael (talk) – 17:33, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

• No, it doesn't. You are confusing birth place with sporting nationality. DrKay (talk) 17:41, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

And more to the point, it's very likely that he actually is American.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:50, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

This and this say Hunter grew up in Westport, Connecticut and attended Staples High School. He played soccer at the University of Connecticut where he twice received All-America honors. As a pro he played only on teams in the U.S., and he still lived in Connecticut as of 2004. It sounds like he's definitely American, and therefore there should be no problem with "American soccer" in the disambiguation. The rest can be covered in the article itself.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:06, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

What am I saying that's causing confusion? If you look on the right side of the link, under the "Citizen" section. You can see it says Canada. – Michael (talk) – 21:49, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

My problem with using "Canadian soccer" is that he is not a Canadian soccer, nor does he play it. I can accept that he is a "Canadian" or a "Canadian soccer player" but the disambiguator is a sport not a description of him. DrKay (talk) 19:11, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

I agree. He's a "Canadian soccer player" (though he's apparently also, and more notably, an "American soccer player"), and he played "American soccer" in high school, college and the pros. He never played "Canadian soccer". At most he played "North American soccer" in the NASL, though he was never with a Canadian team, and that's not a nationality. Unfortunately this is an area where WP:NCSP could be clearer.--Cúchullain ^t/c 00:21, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

@Cuchullain: - what RS are you using to state he is not-Canadian? This quite clearly says he is. GiantSnowman 12:32, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

The two sources I gave. And I didn't say he's not Canadian; he clearly is by birth, but one can be a dual citizen. We're talking about a guy who's lived in America for 45 years, including all of the years he played soccer.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:18, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

...you mean the two sources which do not mention his nationality either way at all? OK then. I mean he might have dual citizenship - I'd be surprised if he doesn't - but the only RS I can see describe him as solely Canadian. GiantSnowman 16:24, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

By that token, the only source I see that specifically says he's Canadian is this, and it describes itself as a self-published source. It doesn't look like a reliable source, and it's totally possible this element is in error.--Cúchullain ^t/c 00:21, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. – Michael (talk) – 21:51, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - sufficient disambiguation as it stands; hatnote between this guy and this guy if required. There are no other 'soccer' players to disambiguate from. Oh, and if the page is moved, I would support a move to Paul Hunter (Canadian soccer) as that is the usual disambiguation - and not Paul Hunter (Canadian soccer player). GiantSnowman 12:26, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• See also a discussion at talk:Paul Hunter (footballer) -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 12:59, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

American soccer or Canadian soccer

Hi all

GiantSnowman has been making representations on my talk page regarding my close above. As I said, I saw a clear consensus to move, but no clear consensus above where to. His history, and that of his brother, Tim Hunter (soccer) suggests that he became effectively American, but we lack many sources one way or the other, and those that exist, which may or may not be reliable, say he's Canadian.[1][2] I honestly don't feel strongly about this, I'm not hugely convinced one way or the other - we just seem to lack much evidence.

My options appear to be:

1. Leave the close as is, and let users start a WP:MR if they want.
2. Change the close to "Canadian soccer". But then perhaps I'd just get another set of chats on my talk page from those who liked the current title.
3. Relist, and let another user perform a close. But they'll just face the same difficulty in calling a consensus.
4. Leave the close as is, and start another RM, from "American soccer" to "Canadian soccer", to try to get consensus.
5. Try to discuss the matter out here, and come to a consensus on this page.

I'd like to try (5) in the first instance, so opening this up here for that purpose. Can we come to an agreement one way or the other? I'll ping the WP:FOOTY project, and also those who participated above: GregKaye, DrKay, Unreal7, Mikemor92, George Ho, Cúchullain, GiantSnowman, 65.94.43.89 . Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 15:45, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Option 2 is my preferred suggestion as per my comments at Amakuru's talk page. GiantSnowman 15:50, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

• What's important here is his own nationality. The opening five lines: "Paul Hunter is a Canadian" - need I say more? Unreal7 (talk) 15:51, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
• Until nationality is confirmed, he is not an "American soccer player". He does not play within the "Canadian soccer" establishment. That leaves "American soccer" as is or "Canadian soccer player" which I think would be preferable. The original proposal as Paul Hunter (Canadian soccer player) seems good to me. GregKaye 16:09, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

• @GregKaye: - 'NATIONALITY soccer' (and not 'NATIONALITY soccer player') is the standard naming convention; and certainly NOT country of operation! GiantSnowman 16:14, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

In Category:New York Cosmos players other players with parenthesis are Charlie Aitken (footballer, born 1942), Julio Correa, Mike Dillon (footballer), Tony Field (footballer, born 1946), Mike Fox (soccer), Alan Green (soccer), Stephen Hunt (footballer, born 1956), Paul Hunter (American soccer), Charlie Mitchell (footballer), Oscar (footballer, born 1954), Andrew Parkinson (soccer), Werner Roth (footballer, born 1948), Bobby Smith (soccer), Brian Tinnion (footballer, born 1948), Bruce Wilson (soccer), Ralph Wright (footballer). There are plenty of "footballers". The equivalent is soccer player. How was your naming convention established? IMO it is not a good one and its inconsistent with other nations. GregKaye 16:32, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

You will have to ask that question of our US-based editors, as far I can remember we simply followed their lead for 'soccer' as we do with all other US-centric sports - for example we have John Smith (American football) and John Smith (basketball) and Greg Adams (ice hockey, born 1960) and Harry Byrd (baseball) (no 'player' in any). GiantSnowman 17:02, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Coming here from WP:FOOTY, I don't think either suggestion is appropriate, as they suggest that "American/Canadian soccer" is some kind of separate sport. The best suggestion for me was DrKay's, i.e. Paul Hunter (soccer player, born 1956), as it identifies that he is a player, and does not require us to assign him a nationality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Number 57 (talk • contribs)

Or just avoid all the unnecessary disambiguation and move the article back to the simple Paul Hunter (soccer). GiantSnowman 17:08, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

The issue with that is the same as it always is with these European / North American disambiguation. To North American readers, Paul Hunter (Scottish footballer) is also a "soccer" player. And to European readers, Paul Hunter (American soccer) is a "footballer".  — Amakuru (talk) 10:20, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Whereas those who actually edit in these areas know the difference, hence why having one player at "footballer" and another at "soccer" has always been completely fine and un-controversial (if it ain't broke don't fix it!) GiantSnowman 10:24, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, you're probably right. Even in the unlikely event that American readers are looking for the Scottish footballer and end up at this Paul Hunter by mistake, they're only one hatnote away. The soccer/footballer problem may be problematic more from a logical than a practical point of view.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:39, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

I think Amakuru made the correct call. The governing convention is WP:NCSP. With there being a Scottish player, distinguished by "Scottish" per consensus, the two options here are the subjects two apparent nationalities, Canadian and American. He's Canadian by birth, and according to some unusable websites. But he's lived in the U.S. since childhood, including for all his noteworthy soccer-playing years. "American" is the nationality tied to his notability as a player. I don't think any of the other potential disambiguation options really work here, nor do I think we'd have come to a clearer consensus by leaving the discussion open in the backlog for an even longer period of time.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:31, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

NASL Jerseys is not an unusable site, it's used on hundreds of articles, in my experience it has been nothing but reliable.

But I have issue with some of your comments - "he's lived in the U.S. since childhood" - where is the RS verifying that statement? Do you have any RS that states he acquired US citizenship? GiantSnowman 16:36, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

that site seems to be a self-published personal website, whether it's used elsewhere (or for other things) or not. As you know no one's found a source specifying that or when he got American citizenship. We do have sources verifying that he's been in America since childhood. There's a whole book that says he played soccer at Staples High School in Connecticut, we know he played at the University of Connecticut and twice earned All-America honors, we know he played in the NASL (for US-based teams), and we know he still lived and coached soccer in Connecticut as of 2004.--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:04, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

I'll e-mail the site owner to see where he gets his stuff. No, we don't have sources stating he has been in USA since childhood - we have a source stating he attended high school in Connecticut, that is not the same thing. GiantSnowman 17:51, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

We know Paul Hunter's older brother Tim Hunter played for the same high school, for four years, meaning they were in Westport for at least several years before Paul was in high school. That's what I meant by "childhood". This says Tim Hunter grew up in Westport. I emailed this site, the Staples High soccer hall of fame, to see if we can get a word on it.--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:13, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree that you are likely correct, but in the absence of sources confirming this person grew up there (as opposed to his brother - what if parents split, one brother with each; one in Canada, one in US?) we cannot make any assumptions. GiantSnowman 21:25, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, I think that's splitting hairs. At any rate, I've also sent an email to Mr. Hunter to try and answer the question. If he gets back to me I'll post the response here.--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:30, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

The sources utilised by NASL Jerseys are listed here (scroll to the bottom). GiantSnowman 08:57, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

I heard back from Paul Hunter, and he says he prefers to be identified as Canadian. Especially given the source issues we have in this regard, that settles it for me. I'm down with a move to Paul Hunter (Canadian soccer). That still leaves the issue that Hunter isn't known for "Canadian soccer", but for "American soccer", but that's a broader issue with the recommendations at WP:NCSP that won't be resolved at this one article.--Cúchullain ^t/c 11:09, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

That matches what the sourcee say as well, extract from my e-mail with the guy behind NASL Jerseys:

"Colin Jose's NASL A Complete Record of the North American Soccer League has Tim as Canada/USA (Jose's nomenclature for born in Canada, but USA Citizen) and Paul as Canadian. I also checked the Detroit Express 1978 and 1979, and the Roughnecks 81 Media guides. All list Paul as Canadian. The Tea Men 1978 media guide lists Tim as an American citizen. It also says he was born in Canada. The 1977 Bicentennials Media guide doesn't list him."

So looks like 'Canadian soccer' is the subject's preferred term and matches what the sources say - seems like a no brainer really? GiantSnowman 15:27, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

It sounds like we may have a consensus here, then? Well done to Cuchullain for actually writing to him in person and getting an answer! It doesn't exactly constitute a reliable source, but certainly good enough given the lack of evidence we already have. If I don't hear any compelling arguments to the contrary, then I will adjust my close to Paul Hunter (Canadian soccer) later today or tomorrow. Thanks!  — Amakuru (talk) 08:42, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 4 July 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jack Frost (talk) 09:44, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

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Paul Hunter (Canadian soccer) → Paul Hunter (soccer, born 1956) – Per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (sportspeople)#Association football (soccer), in this case birth year is a more conclusive disambiguator than nationality because he is notable only for American soccer not Canadian soccer. DrKay (talk) 13:09, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 14:33, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
• Comment Oppose - although sometimes it's inevitable, I really hate using birth year as a disambiguator for footballers. Most of the time they just aren't recognizable at all, I certainly don't know which year most players were born in. If the issue is that people don't know he's Canadian, could with Paul Hunter (Canadian and American soccer) or something?  — Amakuru (talk) 14:44, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

We disambiuguate (in some cases) by nationality - so your proposal indicates he is American, which he is not AFAIK. Even if he was, it's too complex. GiantSnowman 19:30, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Given that my proposal doesn't meet your approval, and the suggestion of disambiguating by birth year fails the recognition criterion, we'll just have to stick with the status quo. He is Canadian, so it's not inaccurate. And it's WP:CONSISTENT with other articles at Paul Hunter (Scottish footballer) and Paul Hunter (Australian footballer). Switching to oppose.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:58, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 19:27, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support - year of birth almost always preferred to disambiguate soccer players, for reasons listed above and many more! GiantSnowman 19:28, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

  Yes, but it's a rubbish method of disambiguating them, for exactly the reasons I listed. The guy's Canadian, so let's call him Canadian, since you don't like my alternative suggestion.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:57, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support per nom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:56, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.