Talk:Thatcher

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On 18 January 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Thatcher (disambiguation). The result of the discussion was not moved.

People section

This is for User:Mais oui!, who keeps reverting my edits that place the People section below everything else. If you check other articles focusing on names, the People section goes first. A few examples are Zelda, Anastasia, Elizabeth. Since you failed to reply to my message I left in your talk page I'd appreciate your response here. - Throw 05:13, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know about the MOS, but it seems most likely that someone typing in 'Thatcher' is looking for the person. So that should come first.--Doc^g 11:56, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Maggie the milk snatcher

As much as I hate this woman I still think that this page should redirect to her page. --Xania ^talk 21:51, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 6 August 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There is no consensus here that the late prime minister is the primary topic for the term. (non-admin closure) Calidum T|C 04:20, 15 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thatcher → Thatcher (disambiguation) – As per the articles Reagan, Mandela, Obama, and Putin, when most people search the name "Thatcher" through the search box in the upper right-hand corner, they are usually (always) aiming to view the Margaret Thatcher article; she is the only "Thatcher" that comes to mind – for the majority of people, that is. Many thanks. Neve-selbert (talk) 12:06, 6 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose – The profession of thatching is ancient, and has more historical significance than the proposed target. There is no clear primary topic. RGloucester — ☎ 15:02, 6 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I agree with RGloucester on this one. The difference with the other public figures is that none of their surnames commonly mean anything else. —innotata 15:46, 6 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment WP:NOTWHATCOMESTOMIND seems to lead against this move. We need a better rationale than the provided one. Red Slash 16:55, 6 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Political leaders only redirect to their article from just their surname where it's the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for that word. There aren't other concepts for Reagan, Mandela, Obama, and Putin to rival the surname of those people but Lincoln, for example, doesn't redirect to Abraham Lincoln because his surname is not the clear primary topic. I agree the profession of thatching is an important topic but Google Book results do almost exclusively refer to the former Prime Minister [1]. Whilst page views themselves won't necessarily indicate the primary topic for Thatcher it's worth pointing out the following:

Thatcher (profession) has been viewed 753 times in the last 90 days.(This is a redirect to Thatching) [2]

Thatching has been viewed 26000 times in the last 90 days. [3]

Margaret Thatcher has been viewed 323255 times in the last 90 days. [4] Zarcadia (talk) 19:37, 6 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Oppose Obamaing Reaganing and Mandelaing are not still practised in English villages by an Obamaer, Reaganer or Mandelaer, so there's no comparison valid in the RM In ictu oculi (talk) 12:53, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose don't need a surname redirect 73.154.175.89 (talk) 20:00, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support – I would note that when you search "Anne Hathaway" through the engine, it redirects to the page of the 1982-born American actress, instead of a disambiguation page disambiguating both for her and the early 1550s-born first wife of William Shakespeare. Putting into consideration that most people associate the term "Anne Hathaway" with the actress, it makes sense that the search term redirects to her page and not a disambiguation one—instead giving people the option on the top of the page (For other uses, see Anne Hathaway (disambiguation).). That being said, while I do understand the argument that while the word "Thatcher" is a suffix compared to the likes of Obama, Putin, Reagan, etc., it is still more closely associated with the former British PM compared to what the generic words Major or Bush are associated with the British PM and US President respectively. There are very few Thatchers these days (most houses these days are built out of bricks, of course), compared to those of bushes and majors. On the subject of Lincoln though, considering there are almost around 50 places across the world (most in the U.S.) named Lincoln, the only four for Thatcher (same as Reagan as matter of fact) really does pale in comparison. To say that the ancient profession of thatching is that of greater historical significance than Prime Minister Thatcher is really just a matter of opinion, may I add; Mrs. Thatcher actually had a lot to do with housing herself, in fact, and I am not trying to be trivial. My point is, when most people mention "Thatcher", it resonates with this woman; if you say "Builder", for example, it does not automatically resonate with the guy in this show, of course. And to be entirely serious, to be fair, she inspired a whole "~ism" that inspired many others, including Blairism, and, yes, even Reaganism (plus an '80s band too actually, by the way). So, I conclude, that while I believe it would be a substantial miscalculation to oppose this move, as her name is almost universally recognized to referring to the late Prime Minister, I will respect the decision made as final in whatever eventuality. Neve-selbert (talk) 22:05, 9 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 14 September 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn by nominator (per WP:SNOW). --Neve –selbert 22:49, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thatcher → Thatcher (disambiguation) – (and this page as a redirect to Thatching; not to move Thatching to Thatcher). Per the move request of last year, there is a general consensus that the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for Thatcher is either Margaret Thatcher or the ancient profession of Thatching. Since the latter had received the most consensus then, it seems reasonable to make "Thatcher" a redirect (rather than a WP:DAB page) to Thatching, with the hatnote at Thatching also being updated to include "Thatcher" alongside "Thatch" via {{Redirect2}}. --Neve –selbert 11:05, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. I have to imagine that for most people, hearing "Thatcher" would bring Margaret to mind, not thatching. There is no primary topic. Nohomersryan (talk) 14:53, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 25 January 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jerm (talk) 04:07, 1 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thatcher → Thatcher (disambiguation) – Redirect Thatcher to Margaret Thatcher. I realize that a similar RM failed in 2015, but back then we did not have the mass pageviews tool that allows us to efficiently compare the page views between a large number of pages. Comparing page views last year of articles with "Thatcher" in its title, the former PM has received 2/3 of total page views; and you can't say that one of the most powerful women in history has little long-term significance. feminist (talk) 03:38, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose the single word could easily refer to Thatching which if anything could be primary for just "Thatcher" (especially by PT#2). Readers and editors know to use "Margaret Thatcher" if they want the politician. If "Isle of Wight" had more views than "Wight" (which it does) would we consider redirecting "Wight" to "Isle of Wight"? Just like Columbus and Trump we should have no primary topic here. There are also a number of less common uses and other PTMs. I'm in England and while "Thatcher" does commonly mean Margaret here, the occupation is also often meant. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:35, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thatching is nowhere close to Maggie in terms of usage. feminist (talk) 17:00, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
How? how many readers are searching for Maggie with only "Thatcher"? yes the term "Thatcherism" is common but "Thatcher" by its self is in my experience less common and "Thatcher" unqualified tends to mean the occupation. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:26, 28 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Normally I'd agree, but the occupation is too significant for the PM to be the primary topic here. Very similar case to Trump. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:14, 29 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

"Thatcher" should redirect to Margaret Thatcher

I'm really not sure why the redirect wasn't done years ago! The article about making a redirect states clearly, "Less specific forms of names, for which the article subject is still the primary topic. For example, Einstein redirects to Albert Einstein, whereas Albert is a disambiguation page rather than a redirect, since no Albert is regarded as the primary topic for that name." Margaret Thatcher is undoubtedly the primary topic with regard to any reference to "Thatcher".

Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Redirecting_to_a_primary_topic--FriendlyFerret9854 (talk) 21:11, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There have been two attempts previously, including one initiated by yours truly, to redirect this page. If you want to try again and initiate another RM, FriendlyFerret9854, feel free. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 22:10, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 18 January 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (Slightly) early close per WP:SNOW since it's abundantly clear there is no support for this proposal. (closed by non-admin page mover) Lennart97 (talk) 14:13, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thatcher → Thatcher (disambiguation) – I'm actually taken aback quite a bit that the redirect of Thatcher to Margaret Thatcher wasn't done years ago! One of the main reasons for a redirect is because of a primary topic. Is anyone seriously suggesting that Margaret Thatcher isn't the primary topic when 'Thatcher' is mentioned? That isn't exclusive to just Britain, she was an international figure. One of the two definitions of a 'primary topic' is 'A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term.'. I would be very doubtful of anyone to suggest that Margaret Thatcher isn't the primary topic. Just Google search 'Thatcher' and you will see that the pages are all about her, the same goes for the images on Google Images. I looked at the different things on the Thatcher article and I didn't see any thing mentioned that outweighed the primary association of the word. Which one is it? The last opposes to the move suggested that the profession of a 'thatcher' meant that Margaret Thatcher wasn't the primary topic, but that just really doesn't carry any weight. One would for the most part be able to find another association with any word, but there's still generally speaking always primary topics when specific words are mentioned... is Barack Obama not the primary topic of Obama even though there is a city called Obama in Japan? Or, is Winston Churchill not the primary topic of Churchill even though there are plenty of other well known associations such as the Churchill Insurance, Churchill Mountains in the Antartica (as well as lots of other locations), etc? FriendlyFerret9854 (talk) 21:12, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

FriendlyFerret9854 -- You've got this requested move wrong. You do not want to MOVE the disambiguation page at Thatcher to overwrite Margaret Thatcher, which would be nonsensical. You want to move the disambiguation at Thatcher to Thatcher (disambiguation) and subsequently to change the target of the resulting redirect at Thatcher to Margaret Thatcher. But in any case, given the multiple previous discussions, the prospect is doubtful. And it looks like you didn't follow instruction for the {{requested move}} template to use subst: with the template. older ≠ wiser 21:25, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've fixed it. Crouch, Swale (talk) 22:00, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose like Trump the long-term significance of the occupation is likely too high for the single word and note that Sophie Thatcher gets a comparable number of views (135,026) as Margaret (198,665)[[5]]. Crouch, Swale (talk) 22:05, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sophie Thatcher isn’t the person that comes to the minds of people when they first hear ‘thatcher’ though, is she? Also, the fact that thatching is a historical profession doesn’t change any thing about a primary topic, does it? In fact, it would have to be a sentence to include ‘thatcher’ when referring to someone being a thatcher e.g. “He/she is a thatcher” rather than just simply “thatcher” which undoubtedly refers to the politician and former prime minister of the UK in most people’s minds. What’s the primary topic in most people’s minds when ‘thatcher’ alone is mentioned? Margaret Thatcher or an unidentified person who is a thatcher?--FriendlyFerret9854 (talk) 23:23, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

On the primary topic article, it states:

which the following are examples:

The page at Joker is a disambiguation page, leading to all the alternative uses of Joker.

The page at Rice is about one usage, called the primary topic, and there is a hatnote guiding readers to Rice (disambiguation) to find the other uses.

Do you seriously not think that the latter choice is the best one when it comes to ‘Thatcher’?--FriendlyFerret9854 (talk) 23:25, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes because the name "Thatcher" is ambiguous and no meaning is clearly primary. By the 1st criteria Sophie gets a comparable number of views and by the 2nd the occupation is important as well. As a reader I'd prefer the 1st option, if I'm looking for the politician I'd type Margaret Thatcher, if I were looking for the occupation I'd type Thatcher. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:03, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per the long-term significance of the occupation. Additionally, regarding the argument about Obama, I'd like to provide some counter-examples - none of Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Grant, Coolidge, Truman, Walpole, Perceval, Chamberlain, Blair, or Cameron redirect to the article on that president/PM. Egsan Bacon (talk) 23:27, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose whilst it is true that Margaret Thatcher is by far the most significant person with that name she cannot claim full rights to the word itself. I have looked up Thatcher three times, once for Thatcher's Cider, once for the roofing technique and once for the blessed Margaret. Having to click twice to get to Baroness Thatcher was no hardship particularly since that is the first link. OrewaTel (talk) 23:44, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. No she isn't the primary topic. If anything, the occupation is the primary topic. Churchill and Obama are clearly different cases, as their names aren't common words in the English language and they are the primary meanings of those terms. That's also why Trump wasn't made a primary redirect, as his name is also a common English word. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:09, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If that were the case, why does the search of 'Thatcher' show Margaret Thatcher rank a lot higher up than the profession thatching? Just because a word is a "common English word" doesn't mean there isn't a primary topic. Churchill is a common English word - what about The Churchill Machine Tool Company? Yet 'Churchill' redirects to Winston Churchill, even though there were other people named Winston Churchill before the former prime minister. Obama is a common English word - it is a word that references many different places in Japan.--FriendlyFerret9854 (talk) 11:29, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You misunderstand me. Churchill is only a name. Thatcher and trump, on the other hand, are actual words with meanings in the English language. The Churchill Machine Tool Company is named after someone called Churchill! Yes, there are other people called Churchill, but Winston is more famous than any of them and anyone saying "Churchill" without a qualifier is undoubtedly referring to him. Obama too is most certainly not an English word; it is also only a name. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:57, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per everyone—blindlynx 17:05, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose and WP:SNOW close now. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:53, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Per WP:NWFCTM._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 00:02, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.