Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics/Archive 19

This is an archive of past discussions on Wikipedia:Noticeboard for India-related topics. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 15

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Archive 17

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Aurangzeb

Can some cooler heads than mine have a look at Aurangzeb, please? --Nemonoman 19:20, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Edits to Aurangzeb are quickly approaching an edit war. --Nemonoman 15:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I've protected it for now =Nichalp «Talk»= 00:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Congrats

Congrats to all new Indian admins promoted when I was absent. :) Good work, keep it up and may we get many more. Regards, =Nichalp «Talk»= 00:39, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Tamil

I am trying to avoid getting into this sort of thing, but can anyone explain why Category:Tamil is a subcat of Category:Stateless peoples? If they are, why arent all Indian ethnicities? (Except Bengalis, I suppose.) I would have gone ahead and removed it myself, but, as I said, I am trying to keep my blood pressure low these days. Hornplease 11:45, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I removed the cat from Category:Tamil. And moved stateless cat to Category:Tamils of Sri Lanka. That cat sure needs some discussion though. -- Ganeshk (talk) 15:00, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Articles by class and importance

There is a discussion going on about creating statistics in the following format:

India articles by quality and importance
Quality	Importance
Quality	Top	High	Mid	Low	NA	???	Total
FA	3	7	34	49			93
FL	7	9	29	139			184
A	1	2	2	2			7
GA	28	61	178	467		1	735
B	133	461	890	1,796	1	162	3,443
C	102	891	2,307	10,244		769	14,313
Start	18	1,012	5,215	63,866	2	2,262	72,375
Stub	1	294	2,337	95,243	2	2,228	100,105
List	24	213	649	5,244	26	196	6,352
Category				14	42,275		42,289
Disambig					789		789
File				2	1,532		1,534
Portal					88		88
Project					208		208
Redirect	2	117	421	6,187	3,835		10,562
Template				1	6,398		6,399
NA				67	127		194
Draft		1		7	827		835
Assessed	319	3,068	12,062	183,328	56,110	5,618	260,505
Unassessed	1	1	1	100		2,866	2,969
Total	320	3,069	12,063	183,428	56,110	8,484	263,474
WikiWork factors (?)		ω = 1,031,569			Ω = 5.40

This table is now up to date again.
It is updated by a tool on the toolserver; it will not work if the toolserver is
having problems. If this chart is showing much more than zero,
then the table will be updated slowly or not at all.

Using the above idea, I updated our banner to implement intersection categories. Please check India articles by quality and importance. Now you can find out Stub-Class India articles of Top-importance. I feel B-Class India articles of Top-importance will be really useful for FA writers for pick articles. And Category:Stub-Class India articles of Top-importance could feed WP:INCOTW. Please comment. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 22:47, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

It seems good to have it in a tabular format. =Nichalp «Talk»= 00:44, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Sarila

The contribution of Narendra Singh Sarila to the history of the Partition of India certainly needs to be incorporated into the article about it. Unfortunately, I'm not sufficiently Wiki-knowledgeable to do it myself (can't figure out how to log in or write). He wrote _The Shadow of the Great Game— The Untold Story of India’s Partition_, and is certainly well qualified to understand the issues. Won't somebody please look him up, or at least look at the book reviews, which give the gist of the Mountbatten-Jinnah negotiations he witnessed in 1947? -- Marshall Price of Miami, Florida, November 22, 2006; email d021317c@yahoo.com

Sorry, we can't email you but why don't you get make an account and we get to know you better? Then we can discuss the issue and perhaps you can author the article yourself as per wikipedia standards? How does that sound? =Nichalp «Talk»= 00:35, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Atrocity#Atrocity_in_India

I think this is somewhat POV (to say the least). Can somebody fix this? utcursch | talk 04:30, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Fixed.-Bharatveer 05:13, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Delhi, a state?

Someone has changed the entry on the India main page to show Delhi as a full-fledged state. I haven't come across any bill or act that has given such a status to Delhi. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks! =Nichalp «Talk»= 15:17, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

It seems to be included under what looks like a category:India states. However, I can't seem to find such a category. Perhaps someone else understands how that "inclusion" works. --BostonMA ^talk 15:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

It is was stored under Template:India states. I have "fixed" it. Feel free to change the format if you choose. Sincerely, --BostonMA ^talk 15:31, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

reverted self. Edit history for the temlate had an edit with the comment, Delhi now a state per [1]. --BostonMA ^talk 15:43, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

As far as my knowledge goes, that site is incorrect. For a state to be created, a Constitutional ammendment is a must. =Nichalp «Talk»= 15:55, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Delhi is not a state (yet). It has some features of a state like its own legislative assembly but is not a full fledged state yet. Politicians have been demanding for a long time though -- Lost^(talk) 16:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

No, Delhi is not a state. It is a special type of UT. One page has been created related to this: National Capital Territory of Delhi. Shyam ^(T/C) 16:39, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

National capital territory as a special UT is still misleading. There is either a state or a union territory, no 'special union territory'. As per the constitution the Centre can pass a legislation for the creation of a legislature if it so wishes. =Nichalp «Talk»= 01:37, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Further sorting of {{India-bio-stub}}

After starting with sorting this Very Large stub this week, have proposed the further creation of some more stubs at Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals/2006/November. STTW (talk) 20:15, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

New 'People' Workgroup?

Is there a chance of a new workgroup being created under 'People' or a similar title? Within this workgroup could be included major figures of India such as Mahatma Gandhi, Nehru, Tilak, etc. There could even be sub-workgroups splitting them up into celebrities, politicians, saints/godmen, etc. Tags and banners would need to be created for this purpose. Hopefully there will be enough consensus to give the green light to creating and expanding this new workgroup? Ekantik 06:47, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Biography articles are already maintained by WikiProject Biography grouped by profession. Would it really help to seperate them by nationality? Although I was thinking the name could be WikiProject Indian biography that would be child project of both India and biography projects (just like Indian cinema is related to Films and India projects). -- Ganeshk (talk) 06:54, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. What about a separate section for saints/godmen? I haven't seen a separate section for them in WP:HINDU although this could be done over there. Ekantik 01:21, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

You could post at Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography requesting for such categorization. -- Ganeshk (talk) 01:25, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Even though that would probably involve religious leaders of other religions and traditions it might better the project for saints/godmen of all religions to have a common set of guidelines to work by. Good suggestions, thanks. I'll get on it straightaway. Ekantik 01:32, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I support the proposal as mentioned by Ganeshk. It would be a great idea to have a separete project on Indian personalities. Amartyabag 09:34, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Kukhran

Who edited the Kukhran page?

the grammar is absolutely terrible and a lot of the information is speculative (such as greeks having intermingled with Kukhran tribes???? I'd be very interested to see the evidence you can provide for this assertion)

in fact the previous page prior to this one was much better and more accurate with regards to scope and historical verification. Whoever edited this page (I mean you're a Kukhran as well, at least you better be), I don't mean to put you down but before you edit a page like this consider the grammar and citation that is necessary in order to maintain a certain level of professionalism and respect. You need citations on many occasions and deleted! the writing of previous authors who actually did a very good job and whose actual work was accurate.

This is what I absolutely hate about wikipedia you know someone comes along and does a great job and then another person comes along and ruins it.

I mean I see here you did try and create a more distinct structure to the page and create differentiated categories which is great, yet you added some of your own speculative information which is (ahem) not the ultimate goal of this website I presume, and this whole project for that regard.

I'd like to edit this page and check for grammatical mistakes as well as add much needed RESEARCHED citations and evidence. Being a Kukhran myself the validity and accuracy of this page is essential and important to me.

please contact me at to let me know how I can get involved and fix this page.

Thank you.

I just tried fixing up the Kukhran page but there's just too much to do right now grammatically etc. I have to come back to it, why did you interchange Kukhran and Kukhrein, its Kukhran/Kukhrain man...just Kukhran I've never heard of Kukhrein before in my life. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 125.23.72.200 (talk • contribs) 09:59, 21 November 2006.

You can check out who edited the page by clicking the history button on the top. This is the shortcut. If you intend to copyedit or make changes, please make sure that the content is referenced by credible sources, is neutrally written and contains brilliant prose. There is no need to email you, why don't you create an account here so we get to know you better? Thanks! =Nichalp «Talk»= 00:43, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

why would I want to join a community which allows anyone to edit and change information that masses of people can then access and assume as fact? I went to your little history page...and here we have PAKISTANI individuals who have listed "India" as a nation they consider to be a threat to world peace on their personal pages, editing and writing articles regarding an Indian caste/community of Hindus and Sikhs. What really pissed me off is that this man CHANGED the pages history by stating that large numbers of Kukhrans converted to Islam..when in actuallity it is a ridiculously small community that was unable to leave their land after partition and thus did not want to be killed by muslim mobs. Kukhrans are warrior peoples and we are the ones who resisted Muslim rule for centuries..and this Pakistani who openly states that he hates India is now editing pages of Indian regard, ABSOLUTELY PROPOSTEROUS...this website will never have any credibility as long as things like this are allowed to go on. Its a shame, a damn shame. Maybe if you fix this issue I'd consider actively participating on this website. But as long as anyone can come in and try and re-write/create their own history...NO WAY.

YOU have the power to change it. =Nichalp «Talk»= 14:52, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

and someone ELSE can come along and change it back...u clearly didn't read my post. Do you have an answer to the question I raised? I presume you do not because I'm right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.246.25.237 (talk • contribs)

Well, that is the problem that wikipedia faces See the (Disclaimers). However, if you are willing to work on it, cite credible sources along with a neutral tone, it will be easier for people to revert unsourced claims to your stable version. A case in point is the India article, 20-30th most hit site on wikipedia. The article gets less revisions for a hit rate that high as it is neutrally written, and well referenced. =Nichalp «Talk»= 02:41, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Original Script for Ghatam Udupa

Recently I created an article Ghatam Udupa, a percussionist from Bangalore, Karnataka. However, I haven't been able to find the original script (possiby Kannada) for the title. Can anyone with a fair knowledge of Kannada put the original script in the article ? Thanks. --N R S | ^T/_M\^B 14:26, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Post your request here: Wikipedia:WikiProject India/Translation--D-Boy 08:00, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I know how to write Kannada, but for that you have to confirm the pronunciation first. I hope you understand the Hindi I write below.

Ghatam=घतम or घटम?
In Udupa:

U=उ or ऊ

d=द or ड or ड़

u=उ or ऊ

pa=प or पा

If you can confirm the combination in Hindi, I will translate it to Kannada/Telugu (whichever is desired). — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 08:36, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, so much for your replies. Ambuj, I can't say about Ghatam. But, it should be the first one. As for Udupa, it's like this -

U=ऊ

d=ड

u=उ

pa=पा

Well, that's how it should be. Thanks, again. --N R S | ^T/_M\^B 07:41, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

For घटम ऊडुपा, the transliteration is: ಘಟಮ್ ಊಡುಪಾ. However, "Udupa" may even be ಉಡುಪಾ for the same pronunciation as the default vowel length of "u" is higher in Kannada as compared to Hindi. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 13:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I have added the first one for now. If any Kannada editor happens to check this article, then he may change it if it's not correct. --N R S | ^T/_M\^B 06:16, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I have corrected the script. It should have been ಘಟಮ್ ಉಡುಪ. Udupa is always written as ಉಡುಪ and it is the common usage. Thanks -- Naveen ^(talk) 06:37, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Requesting an article be made for Agasthiya

Apparently, Agasthiya was an old prophet in Nadi astrology who lived around 3000 BC. I stumbled upon him while I was researching stuff for this odd little Japanese game titled Nostradamus ni Kiite Miro♪. Which is apparently about cute little girls being the incarnations of Nostradamus' and Agasthiya's prophecies. Apparently, he's moderately well known in Japan, but I've never heard of him (I'm American). Anyways, I'm getting confused already, so it would be nice if I could have some more information to go off so I could understand this whole Agasthiya character thing better. Even a simple stub would be nice, whatever you happen to be able to dig up. --SeizureDog 22:08, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

There is already an article on Agastya - Parthi ^{talk/contribs} 22:13, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I see. Alternate spelling that just needed a redirect. Thanks for the help. --SeizureDog 00:28, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

There is also an article Naadi which should be merged into Nadi astrology. Tintin (talk) 01:17, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Done! - Parthi ^{talk/contribs} 10:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Template:WPIndia Navigation

I re-adjusted the table width while making the font of the stats table smaller. If it's hard to read, users may simply click "view full worklist". AQu01rius (User  Talk) 23:10, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The Bharat Scouts and Guides

Can someone put this text File:Indianamestrip.jpg into the organization name on the article? Thanks Chris 04:19, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Kannada Wikipedia

Can anyone with contacts in Kannada Wikipedia see into this matter. They seem to be using a fair use image kn:ಚಿತ್ರ:ಸುವರ್ಣ ಕರ್ನಾಟಕ.png in all their encyclopedia articles. The image is from NIC.IN website and is about celebration of 50 years of existence of Karnataka. Even if the image were free, I am sure such things are unwarranted. In the past, the Urdu Wikipedia was pulled up for putting Quranic verses on top of all articles. We shouldn't let that happen to one of Indian language encyclopedias. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 05:48, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The image was put up to mark the occasion of Golden Jubilee of Karnataka, which happened in November. I guess they would stay on only for this month (November) and would be removed after that. Hope this helps in clarifying. -- Naveen ^(talk) 05:59, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I know that. But the image is a fair-use image. It might be suitable for an article on Karnataka, its hisotry, or even culture; but you can't use it in every article of the encyclopedia. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 06:04, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Ambuj, the image was marked under fair-use by me just because there was no explicit license for the image. There is very little bother and understanding here about the licenses of images that most of it is taken for granted - which, is the bitter truth for us Wikipedians so much used with licensing for all images. Frankly, though, there are very less reasons why anyone should be too much worried about the use of this particular image since the image in most possibility *falls under public domain* as it is a work done by Karnataka Government, and they would be more than happy to let people use it to celebrate the Golden Jubilee of the state. Cheers, --H P Nadig * ^{\Talk \Contributions} 06:18, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Indian government images don't fall under "public domain". They are copyrighted under the Indian copyright law. A celebration such as this should be a news-item on the News section of the main-page. Wikipedia should be neutral and not participate in these happenings/celebrations. Language on Wikipedia is just a vehicle to promote knowledge, it should not be used to identify a set of people/state. Lastly fair-use images should never be displayed on the main-page. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 06:55, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Now the image license has been changed to show it as PD, but no rationale provided. The image still lacks a source description which makes it impossible to verify the exact copyright status of the image. Again, as Ganesh said, images by Indian/State governments, or even nic.in are not in public domain, and are copyrighted under the Indian Copyright Law. I request any editor who has sysop access on kannada wikipedia to see to it that the image is remove from the wikipedia's sitenotice. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 09:27, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikimeetup

Have a look at Wikipedia:Meetup, this can happen in big Indian cities as well where there are multiple wikipedians. Vjdchauhan 11:13, 27 November 2006 (UTC). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vjdchauhan (talk • contribs)

Yeah, the bangaloreans had a good one sometime back. Still waiting for one in North India though — Lost^(talk) 11:36, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Meetup/Bangalore/Bangalore1. Template:Meetup was missing this meetup! Have added now.--Dwaipayan (talk) 20:31, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

New workgroups

I have started two new workgroups, WikiProject Andhra Pradesh and WikiProject Karnataka. The banner flags are andhra=yes and karnataka=yes respy. Please feel free to join-in and contribute. Thanks, Ganeshk (talk) 06:08, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Use_of_vernacular_scripts_in_India_bio_articles_-_2

Voting on the use of indic scripts.--D-Boy 01:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

This voting is invalid, as there are no formal proposals, and the guidelines at Wikipedia:How to create policy are not being followed. I've created a proposal page at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Use of vernacular scripts. Please add your proposals. utcursch | talk 09:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Jesus Christ! >_<! --D-Boy 01:29, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Villayil Raman Gopala Pillai

Shall I attempt to merge this with Njekkad, using the Asiaweek article as a reference?Ivygohnair 14:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC) If so,I will need help to check the Malayalam spellings in the article :-) Ivygohnair 14:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Mair Rajputs

Hello there! A user has created the article Mair Rajputs and wikilinked to several Indian articles. We would like a member of this WikiProject to determine if this article is actually necessary. The article itself triggered a copyvio warning at Wikipedia:Suspected copyright violations, and another at the spam bot for the amount of links linked there. I deleted this article earlier today because it was blatant copyvio, but now it appears not to have that problem. Thanks. -- ReyBrujo 21:02, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Aryans

Hello everyone, I am involved with Out of India page and being supported by NobleEagle on that page. D-Boy also added to that support today. I strongly believe that India and Vedic history is being distorted by lots of people. I have lots of research related to this topic and I strongly believe that if this theory is presented and argued properly, would have a great impact on India and Vedic history. I am new to WP and need support in addressing POV of people against out of India theory related to Aryan. I am ticked-off about how India's history is mis-represneted and would appreciate any help I can get to address that. Thanks. Sbhushan, 03:06, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I support Sbhusan. He's used reliable sources but users pretending to be mainstream keep trying to ruin his work.Bakaman _Bakatalk 04:48, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

History of Manipur

I'm working on it in my userspace before taking it to main article. Need a lot of help on it.Bakaman _Bakatalk 04:48, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I guess that's what is known as understatement. Since all you have are headers, you can start by learning the Wikipedia rules for header capitalization. Use sentence case; just the first word and words always capitalized. Gene Nygaard 08:02, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I was hoping for subject material, not something that could be easily solved with 5 taps on the keyboard and a mouse click.Baka man 02:59, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

So, if you aren't willing to make that minimal effort yourself, then why should anybody else bother helping you out? Gene Nygaard 03:07, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Because its already doneBaka man 17:26, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Indian biodiversity group announcement

If there is anyone with an interest in or specializing in biodiversity related issues you may be interested in the google group Wiki_India_Nature which you can join by sending a blank email to Wiki_India_Nature-subscribe AT googlegroups.com The primary targets of the group are to improve information on biodiversity, a few of the works currently in progress may be seen on

Fauna of India

....And many more The work needs people interested in doing library research, photographers and technical translators. Shyamal 05:45, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you start a WikiProject (Indian fauna?) and keep the discussion inside Wikipedia? -- Ganeshk (talk) 05:56, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

A project may not really be needed since most of us also work with Wikipedia:WikiProject Tree of Life (and species do not follow political boundaries!). Most Indian academics are happier to work over email with people having identities and traceability in real life. Discussions already do happen on wikipedia as well although there are too few people specializing in the subject on wikipedia at the moment. Shyamal 06:10, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I think Ganeshk's proposal would make your aims more efficient and faster.--D-Boy 05:54, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Multiple {{prod}} of india related articles

Have a look at [2]. Many delete discussions are not justified. STTW (talk) 13:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I have asked him to explain. Many prods are indeed not justified. — Lost^(talk) 13:57, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

template logo

User:Szhaider makes a good point here that the flag of the Republic of India should not be affixed to the Wikiproject:India template, since the template covers subjects like Mohenjo-Daro which were never under the Republic of India. — goethean ॐ 21:52, 28 November 2006 (UTC) Well said and I agreeNadirali 03:19, 29 November 2006 (UTC)Nadirali

The logo is just a identifier. It's no big deal. WP India project scope covers both pre and post indenpendence periods. That user should not be removing other project tags without discussion. I am constantly having to remind WP:AGF, that the intention is not mark the territory, but to improve the quality of the aritcle. In the end, we are all working to make a encyclopedia of good quality. Assessment departments help with it. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 22:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The logo is just a identifier. It's no big deal.

Obviously, not all agree. — goethean ॐ 21:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, he's taking them off and removing scripts. I'd like to file on rfc on him.--D-Boy 22:10, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I think bot-assisted tagging of articles are not really a good idea, because it adds a lot of articles unrelated to the actual project. Unless people from a Wikiproject actually are working on the article, it will be wrong to do a brute-force mechanized tagging. My 2 cents. --Ragib 22:20, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The bots just follow the categories such as Category:History of India. They are not intelligent. These categories were added by humans. Would it be wrong to tag a article that had a category such as the one I noted with WP India? Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 22:25, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Isn't there a Wikiproject on History of India? If so, it might be relevant and also not so objectionable (to people who are removing the tags) to add WP History of India tag on these articles, rather than adding the WP India tag. In fact, articles like Taxila may be more relevant to the WP History of India rather than WP India. What's your take on this idea? --Ragib 22:28, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

There is a project for History of India. It was made a work-group of India project. So the tag on the talk page would read {{WP India|history=yes}}. This avoids the need to create seperate project banners for each workgroup. India is just a over-all root project. The maintanance of the article will be done by the respective workgroup. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 22:37, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I want to know couple of things. Is there any reason why an article cannot be a part of two independent WikiProjects? If there is no such restriction, what is wrong in having both tags on the talk pages? Sarvagnya 22:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Apart from using a little talk-page real-estate, there is no restriction on having multiple project templates. Talk-page real-estate issue was addressed with the small=yes parameter (see Talk:Leonardo da Vinci). Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 22:44, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with having the history template on the pages. WP history of india covers both before 1947 and after. That includes ancient history such as indic civilizations. They have plenty of space to add their templates. History should be consist on wikipedia. What happens to pakistan after 1947 except for the wars, terrorism, international politics is their business.--D-Boy 23:39, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The flag of the Republic of India should not be on the project template if the Wikiproject concerns the subcontinent of India. — goethean ॐ 21:12, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Since one of the bots doing the tagging is mine, I'd like to add that I take a lot of care while selecting categories and dont include ambiguous categories. Errors are bound to happen however and anyone finding an error with the bot edits is free to remove them. — Lost^(talk) 05:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Proposal

Since some strongly feel about this flag image, I wanted to suggest adding a parameter to the banner, "pre=yes" to denote pre-independence article. If "pre" is set to "yes", the template will morph itself to show a image "Ashoka pillar" (for example) and any links to India will link to Indian subcontinent. How does this sound? -- Ganeshk (talk) 22:58, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

This is a great proposal, and definitely fair to everyone, and true to the history of the region. I support this wholeheartedly. Thanks. --Ragib 23:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I oppose the proposal. The flag image should be replaced with an image of the subcontinent of India. — goethean ॐ 23:05, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

That is what I meant. This proposal will replace flag image for all pre-indendence articles. The image could be ashoka pillar or sub-continent map or whatever. It should be a free-image. That is a pre-requisite. -- Ganeshk (talk) 23:08, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I guess I can't do anything but to shake my head and wonder about the irrepressible need to put the Republic of India's flag on all post-1947 articles. I do not get it. You all should consider getting over this pissing contest. — goethean ॐ 23:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Let me think over what you are saying. India is no exception. Many WikiProjects have flags on their banners. But if changing to a Indian sub-continent map will solve this, I might be (reluctantly) for it. But I will wait to hear what others feel about this. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 23:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I stated my opinion. What ever happens,..happens.--D-Boy 06:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The Ashoka Pillar, Taj Mahal, or other Indian image is fine by me too. — goethean ॐ 23:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Goethean, I thought about it. I feel pre=yes is the way to go. The flag is best way to indentify the scope of the India project, post-indepedence. Any other image will not completely represent Republic of India. The pre parameter lets the template define the scope of the project pre-indepedence. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 06:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd rather stick with the flag. Any other person can put their flag template on the article. US and UK projects don't have this problem. Why do we? Sino-Indian war has chinese and indian flags on it.It's only because two people that there's a problem. They're allowed to put their flag icon on it. Why does this project always have to make more compromises.--D-Boy 04:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

And another thing, It's only because Szhaider (talk · contribs) and Nadirali (talk · contribs) we have this problem. We've never had it before. Not even Siddiqui had this problem.--D-Boy 04:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I am with Ganesh. Pre=yes is a good idea. Let the flag be replaced by another symbol for ambiguous articles. There is a whole lot of tagging to do. I would like to get on with it as soon as we get over this thing — Lost^(talk) 04:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject South Asia here's the solution.--D-Boy 05:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

South Asia project is not the solution. It is similar to having WikiProject Countries. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 05:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I support GaneshK's proposal. pre=yes is a nice solution.--Dwaipayan (talk) 06:59, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I too support Ganeshk's proposal. The flag for post ind. and Ashok pillar for pre-independence. Ashoka pillar is the best one for pre-indepence since Ashoka's rule was over practically the whole sub-continent and he was the first to do so. Nevertheless, other proposals are welcome. --N R S | ^T/_M\^B 07:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I too support Ganeshk's proposal. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 10:00, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Mock-up

How does this look? ~~I used the Mauryan map when pre is set to "yes". I chose this one since it loads fast.~~ The Indian sub-contitent map is too huge. Ashoka pillar does not fit correctly. There no links to India, so nothing else (except the image) changed. Does anyone else have better image ideas? -- Ganeshk (talk) 08:24, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment Umm...it's not looking good. Even Indians may face problem identifying with it. Is it absolutely impossible to manage the Indian subcontinent map? How about Taj Mahal as suggested above?--Dwaipayan (talk) 10:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment. I changed it to the sub-continent image. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 15:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the effort. With the Indian subcontinent map incorporated, the template looks better, and more easily recognizable. IMO, pre=yes producing this template is ok. Let's see what others have to say. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

CommentI'd just like to say one thing. Why must the Indian template be changed for a minor problem? Most country projects have flags for their templates. A talk page has plenty of space for every projects template. A pak is offended because a template is put on say the indus valley civilization because of an Indian flag. If that is the case, I find the pak flag offensive on say Talk:Rajput. I find that flag offensive. Why is that flag not changed? Why is their not a more "neutral flag" pak template? Compromise and gandhism should only go so far. I find appeasement at this level wrong. That is all.--D-Boy 01:24, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I have implemented the new parameter (pre=yes). You can see it at work at Talk:Taxila. Hopefully there should be less resistance for the banner now. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 07:38, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Ganesh, give them an inch and they will take a mile. Have you seen how bad most Pakistani editors treat other editors? They try to invent "Pakistani history" (no such thing because there is no Pakistani ethnic group). Ragib has also dealt with a bunch of pakistani editors bent on whitewashing the atrocities committed on the Bengalis when Hindu, Christian, and Muslim Bengalis were united in their blood filling the Jamuna. Instead of adding to the encyclopedia they are merely making wiki a soapbox for things they read in Pakistani textbooks. Next we will learn about how the "treacherous Hindus colluded with the British to oppress Muslims" and how "Bengalis are traitors". We should not budge for two POV-pushers.Baka man 23:24, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

A remarkably unhelpful comment. Hornplease 19:16, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Look at the 3rd paragrah on Pakistan. Says it was created to free itself from Hindu discrimination. A litte too POV there.--D-Boy 01:59, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Comments

I've been asked to comment on the issue and here's what I feel>

Ganesh's proposal is good, which has set parameters to indicate the pre and post Independence India period.
Szhaider may have a valid point about the Indian wikiproject hijacking Indian symbols for a project which has an international scope. Suggest we use something less obvious such as a painting or something.
Wikproject South Asia will never survive as a standalone project as it does not have a defined scope. All countries in South Asia border India, and none of them have a large history/geography which overlaps any two nations but not India. Vague exceptions to this are the period when Bangladesh was a part of Pakistan, and the Nepal-Bhutan wars. At most, wikiproject South Asia could handle would be the climate. The best way to offset this would be:
- Have country-specific wikiprojects. In the case of smaller countries for example Nepal, it would narrow the scope of the project to the maximum extent of the territory in the past (for history). and current boundaries for culture and geography.
- To further illustrate this point, a regional wikiproject (viz- history) is expected to take care of: (this is prioritised)
  1. All historical events entirely within the current boundaries of the nation-state (eg Peshwa Dynasty)
  2. An empire that was headquartered, or had a significant area within in the wikiproject's native nation-state, but whose boundaries spread across several other current nation states. (eg Mughal Empire)
  3. An empire that was headquartered in another nation-state, but whose boundaries extended into the wikiproject's native nation-state. (eg Alexander the Great's empire)

I hope this clearly defines the jurisdiction of regional wikiprojects. If needed I can illustrate this with Venn diagrams. Regards, =Nichalp «Talk»= 11:08, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

That's insane. Have a project for every single empire!? The india project is fine. there's room for everyone's template. you already changed the template. Why don't you get rid of the india project next? no other project has this type of problem. baka is right. give them an inch, and they'll take a mile.--D-Boy 01:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think you've understood me. I have not mentioned anything about having a project for every empire. I've just mentioned the jurisdiction and scope of a country-specific wikiproject in relation to history. =Nichalp «Talk»= 03:05, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh. sorry. I reread again. I'm just really riled up about the whole situation.--D-Boy 04:45, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Suggestions and Clarification

It concerns to note that some editors here view WikiProject India as something that glorifies India. Even though we may be as patriotic as we can be personally, it only aims to expand coverage on topics with NPOV. There are no territorial disputes here. Anyone can work on any project. We are just writing an encyclopaedia! I suggest to Ganeshk that may be we could change the wordings in the WP India Template as,

This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, where its contributions would help improve the content and quality of the article and the related topic substantially. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.

which is more neutral, instead of,

This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.

I feel, as we move deeper into history and as we expand our relations with other countries of the world, an inside view for any India related article would help provide a balance to that article, instead of POV. I support the move to change the image by Ganeshk. However, I should also add that the image of ashoka pillar or anything related a particular dynasty wouldn't fit the historical/future scope of the Indian subcontinent.

BTW, D-Boy, I see some overheating on a number of discussions from ur side. It would be great if you look at things at macro perspective, rather than discussing everywhere with a singular microscopic view. Consider an inside-out perspective, instead of a outside-in perspective. It is one thing to follow standards and it is another to set constructive standards (eg. implementation of small format talk headers. see:Talk:India for implementation.). I'd suggest a wikibreak. Cheers. -- Ch e z ^{(Discuss / Email)} 02:27, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think I need a wikibreak. I generally follow the concensus once reached. The concensus has not been reached yet. I see removing the script unproductive. I only know how to speak an indic language. I've only been barely been able to read indic scripts until I came to wikipedia. It's helped immencely having the scripts and indic naming conventions. When you get rid of those, you're keeping someone from learning from a different perspective and getting more into a culture. As for setting constuctive standards, isn't that what making a wikiproject about. Setting standards, creating uniformity, make order out of chaos. There is nothing wrong with setting contructive standards. Many of the projects have done it and have individual manuals of style. There is also a discussion page to debate and compromise when conflicts arise. As for templates, the paks are always welcome to put their's up. What I object to is not only removing the WP india template, but changing what was already a neutral template. Last time I checked, their were more muslims in India than pak, the president is muslim, and the khans are the kings of bollywood. So it bothers me on how the indian flag is offensive when a "religious" not even ethnic minority has more rights that the majority in the flag of the country. Frankly, I'm offended by the pak flag because I find it a leftover of imperialism, genocide, repression, and prescution. Also, the pak already stated that he finds the asoka pillar and the new pic totally offensive and imperialistic. Guess we can't use that. It's too POV.--D-Boy 05:53, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Especially when someone thinks King Ashoka and his message of peace and compassion is not a good representative for the Indian subcontinent. Look at Szhaider's userpage, he thinks America, India, and Afghanistan are threats to world peace. As far as American users like me are concerned, it shows sz is here to to POV-push and attack Indian and American users.Baka man 02:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Chez, The pakistani group will be most satisfied if the India tag is removed totally. The wording change is not going to be acceptable to them. I doesn't matters what we do. They have come with a bias and nothing is going to change it. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 04:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

It's sad that time is wasted in these disruptions while more can be done writing an encyclopedia. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 04:10, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Tamil people in FAR

Tamil people has been brought to FAR. Please be there and comment. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I have been copyediting the article. I would like some help in this as I don't have much time these days. I will dig up some citations to support the article. Any help will be appreciated. - Parthi ^{talk/contribs} 04:25, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

protect of Template:WP SouthAsia

Hello. I protected this template after only a short revert-war between Szhaider and Dangerous-Boy, because it indirectly causes an edit war on dozens of pags simultanouesly. Szhaider wants it unlocked, claiming that my locking implies that I am biased. Please give an opinion as to what to do next, Blnguyen (bananabucket) 01:34, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I think a template adorning 100s of talk pages should not be a subject of an edit war. I'd say let people come to an agreement on the talk page before unprotecting. Though I havent seen the protected version, I am quite sure you protected the wrong version:) — Lost^(talk) 03:22, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Lost, This template is used by only 7 talk pages. The edit war was about which picture to use. It is a banner of a project that has only one member. -- Ganeshk (talk) 03:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh.. Well thats still hardly reason to edit war. Blnguyen, since the INB members may be seen as involved parties, I'd say to take this to ANI or something — Lost^(talk) 04:07, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

That would be the best thing. =Nichalp «Talk»= 07:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

SITE

Suggestions needed for Satellite Instructional Television Experiment. Please add your suggestions at the peer review. Thanks. - Aksi_great (talk) 20:16, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Use_of_vernacular_scripts_in_India_bio_articles

interesting discussion --D-Boy 07:28, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

yeah, right. mighty interesting. - Aditya Kabir 16:57, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

India specific plugin for tagging

Kingboyk and Reedy Boy have kindly developed a plugin for WP:India which makes it very easy for LostBot and Ganeshbot to tag specific workgroup related articles. LostBot is now tagging articles in Category:Politics of India and its subcats. Please keep an eye on the edits and let me know if irrelevant articles get tagged in large quantities. That may mean that a wrong category is being tagged. Thanks — Lost^(talk) 15:09, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

12/4/06 - Indian Buddhist Revival and Kherlanji Massacre

As much as I'd love to do battle with Hkelkar and his fellow editors, I have a job and have to work.

This is the way the article Indian Buddhist Revival (now redirected, with no request for input, to a page called Dalit Buddhist Movement)looks today:[[3]]. The page history (briefly interrupted by an editor who futily tries to protest named Pkulkani)is here:[[4]].

The Kherlanji Massacre (which, believe me, is truly horrific by any human standard) looks like this [[5]]. This is it's page history:[[6]].

Hkelkar is working in concert with an Editor named Ambroodey, who was apparently called out of retirement by an editor named Dangerous Boy (or D-Boy). It appears I have a new "friend". NinaEliza 02:54, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I can't BEGIN to enumerate the various flaws in both these articles, but here's just one example. The repeated rapes of these women is not "alleged", it's a fact. The murders (followed by the public parade of their bodies) are not an "alleged" crime.

By all accounts India is a Country brimming full with excellent examples of culture, architecture, botany, art, religious icons, as well as a phenomenally rich history. Furthermore, I assert that it's a Country fair to bursting with incredibly smart and compassionate people. But unless something happened that I'm not aware of recently, The great Nation of India still considers rapes and murders to be crimes.

You've simply let this go on to long. I appreciate that everyone is busy doing other things, or perhaps you sincerely did not know. But you must, must, start dealing with this. I'm copying the Hinduism project and the Indian Caste System project as well. I'm also copying my own project. I know there's wonderful editors here, and wonderful people. I'm showing my hand, and asking for help.

NinaEliza 04:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I know that these articles weren't part of WikiProject India, and I know that Hkelkar was never a member. I apologize for sounding so shrill, and for bringing up a painful subject. But now that you're aware of what's going on, I would dearly appreciate it if you take these articles into your care. Thank you.

NinaEliza 04:33, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Well holey shmoley. In a rare fit of blindness or dyslexia, I read the text wrong. It doesn't say "alleged" before the word crime, it says the word "alleged" before the word criminal, as it should. I usually think a bit more before I act. The Indian Buddhist Movement isn't so bad, but the new title is highly inaccurate. It really should be titled Neo-Buddhism, per Wikipedia guidelines on drawing the most number of readers to a page. Everything else still stands, and more.NinaEliza 05:50, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, since NinaEliza has been trolling many a talk page with this little essay, I will post my humble response:

There are so many wikipedia WP:NPOV violations in the post above that it truly boggles the mind. Look at the following NEWS SOURCE (remember that little annoyance, sources? Remember those little things called news sites? FYI, they're very reliable) that states the rapes as "alleged" (exact words)[7]:

Two of them - Surekha and Priyanka were allegedly raped before they were killed.

See that? Allegedly. Ever hear of edits reflecting sources?Might want to read up on some wikipedia policies. Whether the Kherlanji crimes were atrocious, brutal or a Sunday afternoon barbecue is beside the point. We must adhere to NPOV. If articles on the holocaust (at least 6 million dead, and that's just us Jews) can be written in a neutral narrative why the hell not this? We are editors, not politicians. We should not use loaded words and distort the known facts unless we are certain that the sources reflect them. Memorize that please. Hkelkar 06:56, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

And yes, the title "Dalit Buddhist Movement" is entirely appropriate since the Neo-Buddhist Ambedkarites are almost exclusively Dalits. There are many dimensions to Indian Buddhism, of which this is but one. To label this minor cult the "Indian Buddhist revival" would be a grave injustice to the other Buddhist movements in India that are not connected to the Ambedkarites. Wikipedia is not a soapbox for Neo-Buddhist propaganda, conflating the broader Indian Buddhist movement with this scientologyesque cult.Hkelkar 07:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Nina,

If you have problems with my edits, dicuss them with me. Its no use sniping on random project talk pages...

AMbroodEY, you are entirely correct. Furthermore, I would like to humbly apologize for my awful and outrageous remarks. Anyone who has read this simply must know that I am deeply ashamed at the numerous wrongs I committed with the posts I made. There are so many, I can't even begin.

I trolled, basically. I didn't intend to, but I did. I've ruined the talk page of a wonderful project in the most foul, grotesque way. Even if my posts were forever deleted (which they can't be, I know), the hurt I may have caused so many excellent editors and people who come across these pages is almost unbearable to me.

Please find it in your heart to forgive me. I am here to learn and help you in whatever way I can.

Sincerely, NinaEliza 22:45, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Are you a sock puppet?--D-Boy 23:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Buddhism in modern India-related sockpuppetry

Please see this post on ANI by Dmcdevit. I have blocked all the sock-accounts and Pkulkarni as the sockmaster (the latter for a month as it is a first time offence). - Aksi_great (talk) 11:54, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

template logo revisited

First of all let me put this straight that I have been trying extremely hard to restrain my feelings about certain editors and admins and their obviously biased actions. There is a certain editor who insists adding devangari to every imaginable article related to Pakistan and its culture and tries to Indianize articles as much as he can. Another takes refuge in personal attacks against me and my country. One flag-carrier is just an out-of-control teenager. A couple of admins are clearly taking sides with Indian bunch violating all values on which Wikipedia boasts about itself. Not even once D-Boy has been warned against his aggressive behavior against me and Pakistan-related articles. This is a shame.

Talking about template logo, the word India in today's world refers to Republic of India and calling the entire South Asia, India or Indian sub-continent is also indirect territorial claim as if the entire region is actually part of Republic of India; just temporarily separated. Term of South Asia not only covers all historical sites and personalities of both India and Pakistan but also is a neutral reference to the region. Current WP India tag is still based on POV and is no way neutral with the word of India both in the name and text, and with the Ashoka Chakra which refers to Hidnuism. WikiProject India should be restricted to Republic of India only. Szhaider 10:20, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Without getting into specifics about users, I want to ask you, have you seen the discussions above? Do you know of the new parameter that sets pre=Yes (for pre 1947 articles)? Please go through the discussions. — Lost^(talk) 11:05, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I have read them with detail and I am aware of the new proposel. But still Bakaman is adding tags with indian flag. I still insist on the usage of {{WP SouthAsia}} and if you insist on using {{WP India}}, Ashoka Chakra should be removed from it. It is a reference to Hinduism (which is not always valid) and a refernce to Republic of India. Indian flag and Ashoka Chakra are acceptable only for those historical sites which are situated in present day india. Szhaider 11:26, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

All you need to do is add pre=Yes to the pre 1947 articles and the flag will be substituted by an image of the Indian subcontinent. Regarding Ashoka Chakra, Ashoka's empire spread through India and Pakistan long before either of the republics came into being. Please understand that this is not an attempt to usurp land from a country. We are merely a group of editors trying to bring more visibility to articles on Wikipedia. — Lost^(talk) 11:41, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

(My 2 cents). Present day India, Pakistan and Bangladesh have a common history before 1947. The region was collectively known as India. This is similar to People's Republic of China and Republic of China being together in history and collectively called China. Note that the word India, when referred to pre-1947 period refers to a region in South Asia comprising of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, and excluding Sri Lanka and Myanmar. Historically, the region India has had a separate history from Sri Lanka and Myanmar and there is hardly anything common to them. Thus pre-1947 India and South Asia are not equivalent. I doubt if anyone would confuse the pre-1947 India with just the region of present day India, and I believe that this is well known fact throughout the world. If someone wants to club them, there is no problem, but I am unable to understand why there is a problem if the coherent history of India is being taken care of by a workgroup. Even more, I am unable to understand why are people getting panicked by addition of talk page templates on articles. Addition of templates do not give any more right to Indians in editing articles than those from Pakistan. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 12:48, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikiproject south Asia is doomed from the start as, if you remove India, no two other countries share anything common that merits that. Wikiproject South Asia is more divisive than collaborative. Secondly have you read my #Comments above? Please read it. =Nichalp «Talk»= 12:57, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

South Asia is merely fantasy. WP India is good enough.Baka man 17:23, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Ashoka might be one of many kings from history. As someone else has previously noticed that refernce to any single emipre or dynasty is not justified and doesn't refer to entire history of the region. Moreover, Ashoka might be a hero or something for Indians but he has no significance for other countries of the region and he seems like more of a religious figure from a certain era. His symbol should be removed if you want to call the tag neutral (even to some extent). For those areas which are in Republic of Inida post-1947 Indian Flag and Ashok Chakra is fine with me. Any tag for pre-1947 should say Subcontinent, or Indian Subcontinent not just India. Szhaider 01:30, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

He has significance in Sri Lanka, Nepal, and Bhutan as well. Wiki does not operate to "fine by me" whims it merely documents verifiable information. India was unified under Ashoka Maurya. Sadly the area known as the "Indian subcontinent" was referred to "India" unanimously back before 47, this is obvious (refer to Ibn Battuta, Zheng He, Vasco Da Gama, Alexander, etc.). Nearly every historical figure in India has some religious significance. Entire history of the region? Its because of Ashoka that Buddhism grew in India, spread to Sri Lanka, and went on its eastward path of compassion. Ashoka is probably one of the best figures to place there. Baka man 02:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the template changes are neutral enough. I don't think the templates needs any more changes. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 04:02, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Szhaider, please read my comment above too. =Nichalp «Talk»= 07:51, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Entire history of subcontinent cannot be attributed to just one person only based on his reign's expansion. Many would argue about importamce of many other kings of the region. Whatever he did he wasn't the only king of the region. His symbol on the tag is NPOV violation and should be removed. If we were to follow this example Mughal King Akbar can be another candidate. What about Babur, the beginner of Mughal empire's dynasty and one of the most famous kings of the region? Szhaider 13:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I got no problem with Akbar, neither does anyone else. While we're at it lets argue over whether to put Suramphaa, Ching-Thang Khomba, Arjuna, Tipu Sultan or any other Category:Indian monarch. Consensus seems to want to keep ashoka, since he was one of the few kings of a unified India, and for what he represents. Babur's kingdom was marked by war and bloodshed. Indians feel that we want to have a less controversial figure, one that represents concepts more innately "Indian" than rampant warmongering. In conclusion Babur represents India about as much as Chitsai.Baka man 02:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Babur wasn't even Indian or pakistani. He was from uzbekistan!--D-Boy 03:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

South Korea-India relations

There was a request for the South Korea-India relations article in WikiProject Korea's to create list. Could anybody from WikiProject India evaluate the article for neutrality, grammar, factual consistency? Thanks. (Wikimachine 04:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC))

This article might be useful Carved in stone: Historic India-Korea links discovered, from a historical perspective. =Nichalp «Talk»= 15:24, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. (Wikimachine 23:25, 7 December 2006 (UTC))

Kilometers are not "kms"

Time for the periodic reminder to use proper symbols. When is somebody involved in the WikiProject:India going to take some responsibility and fix these to "km", the proper symbol? Why are India-related articles such frequent violators of the rules in this regard in the first place? Also, meters are "m" not "mtr", and the symbols are case sensitive too (i.e., "KM" is just as incorrect as "kms"). Gene Nygaard 01:27, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

It is also metre, not meter, right? --Ragib 01:47, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Not when I replace "mtr". Gene Nygaard 07:55, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

It's not the responsibility of this Wikiproject to fixt it. If we see it, we fix it. The nature of wikipedia allows anyone to fix it. Unless ofcourse, you can request someone with a bot to run through all the pages and having it fixed. =Nichalp «Talk»= 04:53, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

It is the people on this project who are looking at these articles all the time, but not seeing the problem. Why? If you are aware of the problem you will be more likely to actually see it when you look at it. Furthermore, when there is systemic error involving the articles of interest to a project, that is exactly the sort of thiing a project ought to interested in remedying. And this "anybody" is getting damn tired of fixing it, having done hundreds of them in the past. It also isn't the sort of thing that lends itself well to being fixed by a bot, because of legitimate uses of KGS and because many people also do not follow the rules about putting a space before the unit symbols, and the articles needing fixing are not easily identified and collected in a list for the bot to work on.

Another fairly common problem on some India-related articles is a near-total lack of spacing between sentences, after commas, and so forth. Or spaces in front of the comma rather than behind it. Gene Nygaard 07:54, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Well Gene, nobody is going to take the responsibility of fixing MoS edits in a hurry. We have a shortage of editors in relation to the collossal number of articles under this umbrella. Asking one to manually go through tens of thousands of articles and then keep track of all is well... pointless, since there are more pressing issues at hand. =Nichalp «Talk»= 09:43, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Sometimes you just need to get your priorities in order. A sprinkling of "kms" in an otherwise well-written article will make it look sloppy and unprofessional. And a dozen well-written articles won't undo the damage done by one of the badly written ones which in addition to "kms" don't even make the most minimal effort at using conventional English punctuation and spelling. Gene Nygaard 01:10, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Are there any featured or good articles that do not follow the MoS? =Nichalp «Talk»= 03:36, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Are there any featured or good articles under the WikiProject India umbrella? Should take a whole lot of time to look through them.

But does it matter? Like I said, a dozen of them won't undo the damage to the reputation of this project caused by one lousy article.

And yes, by the way. I did find one such India-related article. Didn't see a problem with kilometers in that article. But what is the symbol for a watt-hour? Follow the link and figure it out. Then check out the Delhi article.

Of course, like so many India articles, Delhi did also have "kms" at one time; some were removed in this edit, for example. Gene Nygaard 04:47, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I've been wasting far too much time on these problem articles. From here on out, they're jsut getting copyedit and cleanup tags and whatever else is appropriate. Maybe when half the India-related articles have them, somebody will notice and do something about the pervasive, systematic problems. Gene Nygaard 19:59, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Stub proposal

See Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Proposals/2006/December#.7B.7BSikh-bio-stub.7D.7D.2C_Category:Sikh_religious_figures. Baka man 01:54, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Mile sur mera tumhara

Could someone come up with suitable categories for Mile sur mera tumhara, before our anonymous friend breaks a limb reverting? :) Achitnis 10:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Done. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 13:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Requested move of Duars to Dooars

Pls give your comments for the moving of the page Duars to Dooars at Talk:Duars. Amartyabag 11:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Article in need of attention

Hello,

I was on RC Patrol last night and I ran across the article Hereditary Education Policy. This article seems heavily POV and an anon was trying to clean it up. I ended up reverting him because he took out huge chunks of the article. However, the article is definitely in need of an overhaul and cleanup from somebody who is knowledgable on the subject. Anything you guys can do to help? – Lantoka (talk) 21:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi Lantoka, if an article talk of a Governemnt Policy, it must refer to that particular government policy prefereably giving exact words of the government order, government cabinet decisions and so forth. All this article gives is political propoganda of the opponents of the Chief Minister of the government Mr C Rajagopalachari. There are 8 biographies of this gentleman and none of the refer to this particular policy which is called as 'Kula Kalvi Thittam' . If the writer of the article does not produce those references , I would request the Admins to remove the article as not confirming to Wiki standards of objectivity. Also, an outright abuse of Wiki is to post references which have nothing to do with the subject in question. Reference No 1 is the onesided presentation of this 'policy', if such a thing existed. References 2 to 8 and the external link have nothing to with the subject of the article. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.12.7.4 (talk • contribs)

This is with reference to Hereditary_Education_Policy.Now the Tamil Nadu government website http://www.tn.gov.in/gorders/sed/default.htm has details only from 1997 .http://www.tn.gov.in/government.htm .There is no information relating to legislation prior to the Computer era before 1990 in the Tamil Nadu government site this includes all legislation not just the 'Kula Kalvi Thittam' .This is true worldwide.Old legislations prior to the computer/internet era before 1985 are not easily available on the internet in most of the 200 nations will take years and cost millions to secure them and no encyclopedia does that Further Ref 2,6,7,8 do mention 'Kula Kalvi Thittam' in the page 5 brahmin domination and 3 7 4 about the Varna system .I would all including who vandalised the page 3 here to do bring out points about as Harlowraman pointed out Positive Editing bring out points about the Rajaji's educational reforms between 1952-54 rather than negative editing blanking or deleting data.Tametiger (talk

to Tametiger: That is a lame excuse, tametiger. We are not talking of what Rajaji 'felt' ; we are talking of Government policies; all the Government orders are issued by Gazette , known to the public and publsihed in newspapers. All biographical and well-researched books refer to Government orders with date of issue, serial number and the contents. You must give reference to such books or contemporary newspaper articles which refer to the alledged government orders. Why do you give reference only to dodgy internet sites. If you cannot refer to Government orders and decisions, I think you are merely indulging in fantasies. Wiki is not a place for indulging in your fantasies. It is upto the authour of the article to support his/her points. You write "all government documents,Cabinet decisions of all policies taken prior to the Computer/internet era are not available online". This is a lame excuse not to provide documentary evidence, which means this is merely a propaganda. If you cannot refer to books or original newspaper reports of the government orders and government decisions, this article should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.12.7.4 (talk • contribs)

Does any Know abut Actor Sai Kumar

Hello every buddy,few years back i saw movie with Name "Agni" by actor Sai Kumar,does any one know abut him? i mean if any one having his pic? or details.i love to read abut him,i tryed much to look for him on net but could not,if any one can help me. in this regard.

User:khalidkhoso:khalidkhoso 13:24, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Under 'Project Organisation' in project page, where do 'dance' articles belong?

We only have cinema and literature under 'Arts'. I believe we should have a category for Indian arts (as in paintings, drawings) and dance. If not, how do we draw attention (for peer review, for connecting articles to contributors interested in the visual and performing arts) to the numerous Indian dance articles, for example? Just wondering. Cheers, AppleJuggler 13:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the proposal =Nichalp «Talk»= 17:22, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Article in need of attention Periyar

This page is clearly getting vandalised.I reverted it again today after there was mass deletion

1:Only 1 name needs to be used either Periyar or EVR not 2 creates confusion to readers particularly foriegners.Periyar is how he is known.He is refered as Periyar in Tamil Nadu Government.[1] University is called Periyar Universityn named after him[2] The Tamil Nadu Government refers to him as Periyar.One can verify it from the Tamil Nadu government Website http://www.tn.gov.in/pressrelease/archives/pr2004/pr170904/pr170904.htm http://www.tn.gov.in and not as EVR.

2: Periyar being likened to Hitler is potentially libellous as Hitler was responsible for millions of deaths whereas Periyar was not guilty of even one.Further no evidence or citation is given this comment.Periyar turned the offer to become the head of the Madras Presidency in 1939 after the Congress quit but he turned it down now to compare Hitler is wrong.

3:Brahmins:comments like The population of Brahmins in Tamil Nadu, which was about 10% in the 1920s, is today less than 3% as a result of persecution by EVR and his followers are strange as not even a Single Brahmin has been killed in the entire Dravidan movement. Further Rajaji,Jayalaitha and Janaki who were Chief Minsiters were Brahmins and ruled Tamil Nadu longer than any other single community and these statements are not backed by citations or evidence which are required.Jayalalitha is the head of a Dravidan Party

4: And the wording should be encyclopedic none emotional and contraversial lines like Within a span of 20 years, the Brahmins of Tamil Nadu, who had been living there for more than 2000 years, were turned into alien immigrants by the DK's propaganda. The speeches called for the elimination of Brahmins from Tamil Nadu, and the enslavement of Brahmin women. The speeches harkened back to an ancient Tamil glory, similar to Hitler's revival of ancient Germanic culture are not abcked by citations or Evidence

5:Further some blanked His Childhood and Education

Please help.Thanks Harlowraman

a.It is a pity the childhood and education section is blank. b. His name was E.V.Ramasami Naicker and periyar is the title given by his idolizing followers. Hence wherever possible E.V.Ramasami Naicker or EVR should be used. Wiki is not the place for personality cult and everyone should be known by their ordinary names. 3.Because he was a controversial character, there should be some reference to a different POV. This article is not neutral at all, since it gives the POV of his admirers only. 4. Whatever pint is made should be backed up with preferably a neutral report. Statements like He went on a pilgrimage to Varanasi to worship in the famous Siva temple. But discrimination against non-brahmins made him think rationally. He was prevented from eating in places of free-lunch because he did not appear to be a brahmin" appear to be taken out of some petty propaganda material. It is even peurile to suggest that only under discrimination one can think rationally. 5. I don't see the previous posters points 2,3,4. I don't know what is he/she talking about.

This page is clearly getting vandalised several times.It is potentially libellous.note of the allegations have any citation which I have asked for.The wording are not encyclopedic. This is not cult .1:Only 1 name needs to be used either Periyar or EVR not 2 creates confusion to readers particularly foriegners.Periyar is how he is known.Tamil Nadu Government refers to him as Periyar.http://www.tn.gov.in/government.htm.He is refered as Periyar in Tamil Nadu Government. Periyar University is called named after him and there is a river Periyar after him.Also, convention suggests that the most common name be used as far as possible in the text of the article The name Periyar is used by the The Tamil Nadu Government refers to him as Periyar.One can verify it from the Tamil Nadu government Website http://www.tn.gov.in/pressrelease/archives/pr2004/pr170904/pr170904.htm http://www.tn.gov.in and not as EVR.A search with the name Periyar will do it for you. See all actors are known by the film names not there real names for example Jayalalitha 's real name Komalavalli,Vikram's real name is John Kennedy further Joseph Stalin is known so and not as Joseph Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili .This is not cult .Also convention suggests that the most common name be used as far as possible in the text of the article.If pages were put by Komalavalli or John Kennedy .No will know them and users will not be able to reach them.Similar is the case with several of them.Now not all of them have changed there names legally. the article is there as it was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periyar_Ramasami before the mass deletion by user 192.223.243.6.further I am not reverting or blanking any of the edits done by others users. (Harlowraman 07:45, 13 December 2006 (UTC)).

To Halowman: The Tamil wiki gives the name as E.V.Ramasami. Periyar river is not named after him. 'Periyar' in Tamil simply means 'large river'. His devotees may name anything after his title given by them i.e. Periyar. But to refer to him as periyar outside his cult followers is a travesty of naming conventions. He called himself E.V.Ramasami naicker. About Stalin, Stalin called himself as Stalin throughout his adult life because he was in an illegal party to begin with and that name stuck from the time he was 20. You cannot compare the name Stalin to Periyar. Only from 1960s his followers began to frequently use the name Periyar to boost their own party prospects and respectability. Periyar is a cult name given by his devotees. His biography calls him E.V.Ramaswamy naicker. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 161.12.7.4 (talk) 10:48, 13 December 2006 (UTC).

Move Bangalore to Bengaluru

The name change has been effected and the article must be moved. 155.69.5.234 20:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

No, it certainly should not be moved. The requested move has failed. Gene Nygaard 04:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

It will be moved later. Please see [8]. Sumanth 10:21, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

It better not be, because that is not in accordance with proper Wikpedia procedure. Bangalore had a requested move listed at Wikipedia:Requested moves. It clearly failed, though it was not closed. Gene Nygaard 14:01, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Note specifically that the link provided by Sumanth was not a Wikipedia:Requested moves discussion, even though it as been misleadlingly formatted as though it were. Gene Nygaard 14:18, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Kapil Dev

I think we need to check the Kapil Dev page. It says that he played 3099 one day international games in the table on the right. I am pretty sure he did not play that many games. And by table, I mean the second table from the top.Vignesh 06:32, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

You are right. According to Cricinfo, he played 309 List-A matches (not ODIs). It's probably just a typo. Feel free to fix it. --Shaktimaan 23:59, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

And while we talking about that page.. The Abdul Qadir reference seems incorrect. This article on Cricinfo mentions Amarnath and Gavaskar shouting 'googles' on Qadir's googly, but no mention of Kapil. I would recommend removing that paragraph unless it can be validated. Is there a formal process for doing this? --Shaktimaan 00:08, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

If List-A does not refer to ODIs then why does the list-A link lead us to ODIs? Vignesh 10:01, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

ODIs link to One-day International and List-A to Limited overs cricket, which is the way it should be. Tintin (talk) 11:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

what is this lamp called?

Can someone tell what is the name of the lamp shown on the tail of this acft [9], wanted it for the table i made for Air India Express liveries. Also, can anyone identify these paintings [10]? Thanks --^{PlaneMad|YakYak} 09:02, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the lamp is called a nilavillakku (not sure what it is called in Hindi) —the Hindu traditional lamp; the lighting of which is considered very auspicious.--thunderboltz ^(Deepu) 13:16, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Deepu is correct. Just one correction, it is also called the peacock lamp (mayil villakku) and another version of it called is the parrot lamp(thatta villakku), the one in the pic looks like a peacock lamp. Jisha (Talk) 19:22, 14 December 2006 (UTC)