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Help with Best Gain

Hello all! The article Best Gain hasn't been touched for years. It sounds like the kind of topic that should have some sources written about it, but I wasn't able to turn up anything. Any chance someone more familiar with the world of horse racing might be able to find a ref or two? Bonus points if you de-orphan it. If sources don't exist, we can move to PROD or AfD. Thanks and happy editing! Ajpolino (talk) 20:21, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

I'd have to say he doesn't come within a mile of meeting notability being unplaced in 16 starts Jlvsclrk (talk) 05:24, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
His price tag might make him notable: we do have articles on The Green Monkey and Snaafi Dancer. The relevant sources, however, might well be in Chinese. Tigerboy1966  09:09, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
He may have been a sale-topper in Hong Kong but the amount (roughly $295,000) is relatively pedestrian compared to the major auctions. The closest equivalent I can think of is Canadian Bound, but CB was both the first yearling to break the $1 million barrier (way back in 1976) and had the Secretariat and Dahlia connections. Jlvsclrk (talk) 11:17, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Agreed, looks like an AfD case to me. There are notable bad racehorses like Quixall Crossett, a National Hunt horse who achieved cult status in Britain for his utter uselessness and received a lot of mainstream media attention. I don't think that BG ualifies as one of these. Tigerboy1966  12:43, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Note for all, I've started an AfD. Thanks for your input. Ajpolino (talk) 22:29, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Source for jockey / trainer / owner bios in North America

If you're editing articles for North American jockeys, trainers or owners, Equibase compiled some really useful information for anyone that had a starter at this year's Breeders' Cup. Includes background info, career overview, milestones:

Jlvsclrk (talk) 21:00, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Eternal Sun

Is now up for GA review. I am a co-nom with Dawnleelynn, though it lists me as the nom because I was the one to list it for GA. He was a Quarter Horse who raced 12 times and later became a show horse. I thought I'd notify the project and see if anybody wants to do a review. Also, happy new year! White Arabian Filly Neigh 23:24, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Nimbus (BR)

This article has an incorrect disambiguator. The article has previously been at both (British horse) and (GB). Either would be correct, but (BR) certainly isn't, it's not a descriptor applied to thoroughbeds bred in Great Britain. I'd like to do an RM for this to move it back to one of its previous names, but does anyone have any particular views on which would be better. There is also a Nimbus (FR) for a French horse and a Nimbus (horse) dab page. --Bcp67 (talk) 22:26, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

I'd say Nimbus (GB), since that's how it shows up in Equineline Jlvsclrk (talk) 21:13, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
I moved the page from Nimbus V to Nimbus (GB) back in 2012. I don't know how the (BR) got there. Moving. Tigerboy1966  04:12, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
Ah now I see. The page Nimbus (GB) exists as a redirect to Nimbus (BR) so I can't move the page. Anyone help? Tigerboy1966  04:16, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
Hi, both articles have a bunch of articles that link to both of them. I am hesitantly suggesting moving the content of Nimbus (BR) to Nimbus (GB) thus it will no longer be a redirect page. Then you can make Nimbus (BR) a redirect page to Nimbus (GB). The articles currently pointing to Nimbus (BR) would follow the redirect I believe. The only downside is that you would lose the history of Nimbus (BR) by moving the content, which is why I only hesitantly offer this solution. Perhaps someone else following me will have a better idea. dawnleelynn(talk) 04:52, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
Sorry, been a bit quiet on this one since I raised it a month back - thanks for the comments above. It would need the (GB) page deleting first and then the (BR) page moved to (BR) which will preserve the history. Needs to be done as an RM so an admin can do the delete etc. I'll get on the case with it in the next few days. --Bcp67 (talk) 14:31, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
What happens to all the articles linked to the (GB) page when it is deleted? I would like to know for this issue and just for my own knowledge, thanks. dawnleelynn(talk) 16:12, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
Well they would temporarily be pointed to a redlink. But I should have said above "then the (BR) page moved to (GB) which will preserve the history". Once that's done, the articles linked to the (GB) page will have a target as before, except now they'll be pointed to an article and not to a redirect. --Bcp67 (talk) 16:20, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
Oh I get it now. Yes, I see how it would work. That's definitely much better. Thank you for explaining it. I've started to understand some of this page move and redirect processes, but I still have much to learn. Now that I understand, I see how that is the proper solution. Have a great day! dawnleelynn(talk) 16:24, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

For future reference, I have pagemover ability and can fix stuff like this. But ping me on my talkpage to do it, as that way I'll get an email letting me know there's something I have to look at; I've been kind of busy on a real life project (a couple of you know why) and haven't been as actively monitoring my watchlist as in the past. Montanabw(talk) 17:03, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Battle of Midway (horse)

Just come across a newish article about the Breeders' Cup Dirt Mile winner which looks like it could do with a bit of work from the US side of the project. --Bcp67 (talk) 22:02, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. I'll do some more editing tomorrow. Jlvsclrk (talk) 13:59, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

La Mesa Park

I created a article on a closed horse racing track in new Mexico. The article is a stub. Feel free to improve it....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 02:53, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Vandal

We have a vandal/ troll on the loose who is targeting US Horse racing articles from various IPs. So far affected have been Todd Pletcher, Bob Baffert, Nick Zito, D. Wayne Lukas & Eight Belles. Keep an eye on your watchlists. Tigerboy1966  03:29, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Might be the same idiot who was doing similar stuff to the articles on the Desormeaux brothers. Changing year of birth and other subtle stuff that isn't easily caught by the bots and vandal filters? Montanabw(talk) 17:04, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Project members alert

Project members may be interested in this discussion: Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2018_February_28#Category:Steeplechase_horse_racing. Montanabw(talk) 17:18, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Race people in red

Posting a list of the human connections to various US racehorses who are redlinked but probably meet the "won a grade one stakes" notability criteria. (Haven't checked them all, and maybe a few already have articles, but we need a redirect?). In case anyone doesn't already have enough to do, here's some articles to create! If they are in the top 20 right now, I mentioned it (lots of good horsemen NOT yet on top 20 for year because it's early...) Other folks, if there are other worthies, feel free to add. Montanabw(talk) 19:55, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Prat and Saez definitely deserve articles - they've ridden some notable horses and there's plenty out there. As an aside, I've always thought notability for jockeys should be a heckuva lot higher than 1 Grade I given how many races they ride each year, compared to horses - its something like 100 or more to 1 each year and over much longer careers. But then again, the 1 G1 is a minimum threshold so nevermind!
For the trainers, Navarro is another bad boy - lots of drug issues - and Sharp Azteca is one of his few G1 winners. Most of my handicapping friends swear at his name and I never feel comfortable covering such things. Miller scored a double at last year's Breeders' Cup so I have him on my to do list but I'm pretty busy right now with work. Agree with Ruis if the Bolt keeps winning, especially as he's also the owner. FYI, I've started the Bolt d'Oro article in my sandbox Bolt d'Oro sandbox - feel free to edit. I plan on getting it up this weekend. He already meets notability with two G1s last year. Jlvsclrk (talk) 23:03, 20 March 2018 (UTC).
Eep, I posted this two weeks ago! Yikes. In my own defense, I've been busy in real life. Bolt's article looks good; there was an article in the Montana papers about Ruis' training operation in Northwest Montana, I think he's a co-owner, actually. So, picking my Derby horse is easy this year... Big Sky connection, lol. Montanabw(talk) 07:47, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
Good article at yahoo today on Mick Ruis if anyone is working on an article for him. Jlvsclrk (talk) 13:01, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Iroquois Steeplechase

Hello. Could someone please add a referenced list of all the owners/winners? Please ping me when you've done it. Thanks!Zigzig20s (talk) 20:37, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Kentucky Derby

Article has been started, needs some TLC. Montanabw(talk) 07:53, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

I did some work, found the logo. Plan to add a bit more chit-chat on the leading contenders like Audible and Malibu Moon. FYI, we have articles for all the qualifying G1 winners except those two, so of course one of them will win!
I know last year we set up a table for entries before the race, which became the basis of the race results table in the final version. I was wondering if we should set up a table for the top 20 qualifiers now, rather than waiting until May 1 when entries are taken. It means a bit of extra work with the maintenance of the 2018 Road... article, but shouldn't be prohibitive since its usually just a matter of one or two injuries from now on. LMK what you think. Jlvsclrk (talk) 21:22, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
Starting to look like we may need to check in on the article throughout the next day - three attempts so far to add spurious links in last hour. Jlvsclrk (talk) 19:56, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
I've stuck it on my watchlist, will keep an eye when I'm here. --Bcp67 (talk) 20:02, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Requested move

There's an RM on Talk:Horseracing in Great Britain, which also covers a number of other pages, if anyone wants to comment. --Bcp67 (talk) 17:49, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Recent Secretariat edits

Can someone take a look at the recent edits made on Secretariat: four of them, all talking about weight from someone who obviously doesn't understand the concept of scale weights (gasp, three-year-olds carry less weight than older horses, and the longer the race, the greater the difference). I don't think they add anything to the article but I'm a bit too close to judge perhaps. Jlvsclrk (talk) 22:19, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Pedigree

Template:Pedigree has been nominated for merging with {{Ahnentafel}}. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Frietjes (talk) 23:09, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

IMO, this is insanity. Jlvsclrk (talk) 23:13, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Steeplechase

I have requested that the above article be renamed. Thanks. SFB 21:51, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Fringe Player

A perhaps-aptly named article about Fringe Player, who I've not heard of. Appears to be a US horse owned by Robert Sangster but the article has no content about the horse at all - it mentions that he was sired by Woodman and lists some of Woodman's other progeny. A candidate for deletion maybe? Or could someone with US knowledge improve it? --Bcp67 (talk) 08:21, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Sounds like someone wrote up an article for the family pet. No stakes wins. I'd suggest deleting Jlvsclrk (talk) 10:05, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks Jlvsclrk, I have just PROD'd it. --Bcp67 (talk) 10:10, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
Worth putting on your watchlist for the amusement value. Today we have the unlikely claim that this gelding won the 1999 Acorn Stakes. Hopefully the article will be gone soon! --Bcp67 (talk) 19:11, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
The PROD was removed, so I've nominated it for deletion, please comment at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fringe Player. DferDaisy (talk) 21:49, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

2018 Preakness Stakes

Someone created an empty article for the 2018 Preakness Stakes which was rapidly marked for speedy deletion. I've put some quite basic content in, added some cats and a template. Would anyone be able to give it a bit more substance and save it from being deleted? --Bcp67 (talk) 19:13, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Magnum Moon

Has anyone got this article in a sandbox? He's a GI winner and strongly fancied for the Derby. If not, I'd like to have a go tomorrow as I haven't done an article on a US horse in ages. Rooting for Mendelssohn, obviously. Tigerboy1966  17:59, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

I was thinking of it but have enough on my plate for now keeping the ones I've already started current. Don't know how you do it! Jlvsclrk (talk) 21:46, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
Keeping articles on active horses up-to-date is an endless task. That's why I have spent the last few months creating articles on early 20th century classic winners: they probably won't need much updating. Possible tip: the last time I created an article on a son of Malibu Moon on the eve of the Derby, Orb won. Tigerboy1966  18:26, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

WikiProject Vital Articles

I don't know how many of you are familiar with the WikiProject Vital Records. It's all about selecting the most notable articles in every subject in Wikipedia and then making them Featured Articles and ensuring that they stay Featured Articles. There are categories for Horses under Animal breeds and hybrids which is stable right now and might need some input later. However, there is also a category for horses under Individual Animals that Montanabw and I have done a little work on yesterday. Mostly Montanabw really. We'd like to get some input on the list here if we could. The articles that are selected in the final draft may affect some of the articles you created or work on now. Right now, it's just an ongoing selection process. One of the editors in charge told me to go ahead and change the list, maybe add about 20 right now and there would be time to add more later. There were just 4 when I started yesterday. We just need the top 20 horses for now and they do not need to be numbered 1 through 20 in order. Also, think more than just race horses. Think sires, horses from other nations, and celebrity or other historic horses. See the following list to see what I mean. Also see our discussion at the Vital Records Level 5 talk page, link below. Also, if anyone knows of a good way to poll answers after we come up with a list. Another note about this list. It's for horses that actually existed, not fictional horses. Thanks! p.s. I just wanted to add a note that we are going for horses who have already made their contribution to the sport, for the most part, same as other categories in Vital Records. However, there can always be exceptions for certain cases. Like with Tiger Woods for example. He's counted in golf as a Level 4 even though he's not done with his career because he's so exceptional. As montanabw said below, American Pharoah could be counted as an exception. And myself and Jlvsclrk even said we could see some possibility of counting Bob Baffert due to his current win with Justify. Obviously, it is too early to include Justify, though. dawnleelynn(talk) 19:39, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Current list at Vital Articles

Race Horses

  • Byerley Turk
  • Darley Arabian
  • Godolphin Arabian
  • Eclipse
  • Man o' War
  • Seabiscuit
  • Citation
  • Phar Lap
  • Kelso (horse)
  • Secretariat
  • Jay Trump (could replace with the greatest steeplechase horse if it's not him)
  • Red Rum
  • Arkle

Other

  • Bucephalas
  • Bamboo Harvester (removed for now, maybe bring back, watch quota)
  • Marengo (picked by other editor, but seems a good choice)
  • Nelson (removed for now, maybe bring back)
  • Trigger (picked by me)
  • Scamper
  • Midnight

Additional race horse possibilities Montanabw mentioned

  • American Pharaoh (not sure if we should add living horses)
  • Frankel (horse) (not sure if we should add living horses)
  • Ribot (horse) (other nations)
  • Black Caviar (other nations)
  • Makybe Diva (other nations)
  • Native Dancer (other nations)

Black Caviar and Makybe Diva from above are both still living as well. I'd suggest:

  • Nearco (other countries - Italy, undefeated, sire impact out the wazoo)
  • Northern Dancer (other countries - Canada, sire impact worldwide)
  • perhaps Dan Patch for harness racing
  • perhaps Red Rum for steeplechasing. Very popular article
  • perhaps Sea Bird for Europe as the Timeform top-rated other than Frankel. Brigadier Gerard not far behind. Shergar for the high rating and tragic kidnapping
  • St. Simon for Britain, 19th century. undefeated, stud impact
  • perhaps Sunday Silence for his stud impact in Japan. (Of course, anything to do with Sunday Silence poses a "what about Easy Goer" risk
  • perhaps Kinscem? a great mare from the 19th century
  • non-Thoroughbreds - Bucephalas would be my pick Jlvsclrk (talk) 22:18, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Some other ideas peruse this article

List of historical horses

Celebrity horse possibilities

  • Misty of Chincoteague
  • Mister Ed

** The Black Stallion Jlvsclrk (talk) 21:34, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

These are informational only. The talk page is not set up for extensive messaging. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Vital_articles/Level/5#Replace_Count_Fleet_with_Eclipse

This is also informational. This page is not set up for heavy editing. Unless someone wants to join the project... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5/Biological_and_health_sciences/Animals#Horses_(8_articles)

dawnleelynn(talk) 16:46, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Steeplechasing

  • Arkle. And the rare thing about this selection is that no-one who knows the sport will argue. Tigerboy1966  12:23, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
    • Yes, even I know of Arkle. Timeform top-rated of all time. Should definitely replace Jay Trump on the list. Jlvsclrk (talk) 14:05, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
      • Thank you for that, you two. I have recently had an editor respond on my talk page as well, citing Arkle as a top pick and also mentioning Golden Miller. And we have Red Rum listed in the Vital Articles already. I think we are ready to remove Jay Trump and add Arkle for sure. Golden Miller is a possibility, but I want to see what montanabw says. We have more spaces in the quota still. And they are about to increase the quota again. I'm also going to post a message here later about polling for sports figures - jockeys, trainers, and dressage, etc. I could use input there for sure. Thanks!
        • Golden Miller certainly historically significant, although the Cheltenham Gold Cup didn't have the prestige in his time which it does now. I'd suggest Desert Orchid from the UK, a champion steeplechaser of the 1980s who was a bit like Red Rum in that his fame went far beyond people interested in racing. --Bcp67 (talk) 19:05, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Mares

The list is inevitably male-centric but there have been some great race mares and incredibly influential producers. Given the results of the Derby yesterday, I thought I'd throw Ouija Board Urban Sea's name into the hat for winning the Arc and then giving us both Galileo and Sea the Stars. She's also fourth dam of Masar. Miesque and Personal Ensign belong in this category of elite race mares who became top notch producers.

For mares who are known exclusively for their racing ability, we've been embarassed recently by so many elites, but they don't yet meet the test of time - though I can't see Black Caviar for example ever falling from the highest esteem with her race record. For time-tested reputations, Ruffian would be tops in the States.Jlvsclrk (talk) 18:25, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Think that should be Urban Sea above. I could throw in Pretty Polly, great racemare from the early 20th century and influential broodmare. --Bcp67 (talk) 19:00, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
Yes, I did mean Urban Sea, thanks. And I'd love to work on Pretty Polly. Wow, what a resume! Jlvsclrk (talk) 00:09, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

My Vital Articles Mock Up

Bcp67 Mobile mundo Tigerboy1966 Jlvsclrk Montanabw I copied the Individual Horses section from Vital Articles into a sandbox in my Userspace so I could mock up the proposed changes. I'd like you all to participate if you like. I took all of your suggestions above and created a list of the horses with notes on them to help decide which ones should go into the mockup. Once it's complete, I'll just copy and paste the finalized list into the vital articles section. You all came up with some great choices, I thank you all for your time. If you go to the sandbox, perhaps we could try to pick around 10 to 15 from the list. We could end up with a balanced list of foundational, American, foreign and different types of racing, that would be great. All of the horses meet the requirement for having made the bulk of their contribution to their sport except for American Pharaoh, who is still at stud. So feel free to vote for any on the list that are still alive. We aren't planning on changing any that are already on the list, but feel free to comment anyway if you feel strongly. Go here User:Dawnleelynn/Horse Sandbox. dawnleelynn(talk) 03:59, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Presidentman Hi there. I am writing this message regarding your addition of all the remaining Triple Crown horses to the Individual Horses category in the Vital Articles project. While we appreciate your good intentions, race horses are judged for their whole career, not just for their winning of the Triple Crown. Also for the purpose of this project, we are trying to select a rounded group of foundational, American, foreign, and gendered horses, across eras, and different types of racing. I have polled the horse editors here (such as ones who edited and brought Secretariat to FA status) and have gotten a good selection of horses together, which they are now voting on in a sandbox I created in my Userspace. Oh, and the VA project aim is to pick selections who have made their contribution to the sport already, which would leave out American Pharoah and Justify. Yes, his name is spelled wrong on purpose; that's how it is registered. Exceptions are sometimes made for cases like Tiger Woods for example. So, I ask that you allow us to change the contributions without offending you. You are free to look at the sandbox and make comments. Thank you. dawnleelynn(talk) 20:07, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

Hello. I placed these articles on the list because they are the thirteen most notable horses in U.S. history, with the Triple Crown being a significant achievement of national importance. Even Americans with only a small interest in horse racing (like myself) will be able to name most (if not all) of them, but be hard pressed to name the other winners of such races such as Mine that Bird. And, while I understand that horses have careers before and after the Triple Crown, their achievement of that title far outshines any others they may have. As such, I would be opposed to a straight mass removal and prefer a discussion of these horses on a case-by-case basis. Additionally, there is a separate talk page, Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5, where these discussions would be more appropriately sited. Feel free to gather comments there. Thanks. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 13:33, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
The point is that they are not all the most notable horses in US history (Man o' War and Seabiscuit being top of the list with Secretariat). And the list is not intended to be just American and not just thoroughbred horse racing, hence the other names on the list. Jlvsclrk (talk) 20:51, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
seems that Stardardbred and Quarter Horse Racing have been left out....Ealdgyth - Talk 21:03, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
Ealdgyth Scamper is in and Dan Patch is being considered. (Mobile mundo (talk) 21:54, 25 June 2018 (UTC))
all power to scamper, but he was a barrel racer...you’d think that an actual racehorse would also be considered, given the fact that Quarter Horses are one of the most numerous breeds of horses...I’d also suggest Hamiltonian 10... and Justin Morgan. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:14, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
Ooh, I like Hambletonian 10 for sure – as significant to the Standardbred as The Byerley Turk to the Thoroughbred. Strangely to me, we have the horse normally known as Justin Morgan under Figure (horse). The article needs a whole lot of work, since it makes little reference to the horse's impact on many other breeds such as the Standardbred. Jlvsclrk (talk) 23:04, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

I will add Hamiltonian 10 and Justin Morgan over at the sandbox. It was always open here to add something, but I probably should have pinged you as well, sorry.

One note about Vital Articles. I do believe that each vital article is supposed to stand on its own merits. I also believe we are not supposed to be using lists as a way of adding vital articles. I am like 99% certain of this. With one fell swoop, 13 thoroughbreds are added from a list. That is not how vital articles is supposed to work. Lots of sports have special lists, but I have not seen them used to add a group of people or animals. In fact, I'm a big fan of golf but there are many there that I was not familiar with because of the diversity. And most modern golf players are not there because they have not completed their contribution to the sport. Tiger Woods was the exception, and we all know why. dawnleelynn(talk) 23:20, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Unless we can add several dozen horses (aren't we still limited to 10 or 15 total?) I am vehemently opposed to randomly adding the 13 TC winners when not all of them are not even in the Top 20 of the Blood Horse Top 100 list in the USA, plus it excludes many solid international horses. They also aren't, as a group, the "most notable horses in U.S. History" and many non-TC winners are... including Man o' War, Northern Dancer, Native Dancer, and so on. While I do favor including Hambletonian 10, and if one of the three foundation TB stallions, then all (or maybe just Darley, not sure), I really take issue with listing every foundation horse of every breed; Quarter horses in particular have multiple sources and no one foundation horse. Figure (the "Justin Morgan" horse) maybe, but I'd not want to include him over other historically significant animals. We also have a question of whether to split off Thoroughbred race horses (or race horses generally) into a separate category from other horses... for example, what do we do with random famous historic animals such as Traveller, Bucephalus, Marengo, etc...? I also think we SHOULD acknowledge not just great breeding stock, but great horses who may not have reproduced, such as Phar Lap, or certain Olympic champions. But for now, NO, we don't need all 13 TC winners. Montanabw(talk) 20:01, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Presidentman Several of the horse racing editors have replied to your message here. Regarding your comment about there being a place to comment in the Vital Articles area, I had to cast my net where the fish were. In fact, the day of my first message to you, I caught a new fish who added a new horse suggestion. Anyway, we should take their comments seriously, as they are the ones who write these articles. For example, one of the editors who replied is the editor who created and wrote a good deal of the article on Justify (horse) who just won the Triple Crown this year. She is not clamoring for him to be on the Vital Article list. Also, if you add some articles via a list, is it not unreasonable to expect others to justify their removal one-by-one? We would appreciate your consideration of the comments here. Thank you. dawnleelynn(talk) 18:17, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Notability of Karl Umrigar

Came across Karl Umrigar in my efforts at WP:NPP. The page had serious copyright issues which have now been dealt with; given remaining content I put up a PROD which was quickly removed with the claim that he does meet notability standards as a jockey. This is far outside my expertise and I'm hoping someone from here could give some thoughts about whether he meets WP:NHORSERACING or not. My inclination is not based on the copyright and the heavy use of really shoddy sources but again I don't have the expertise to evaluate the claim seriously or not, as part of WP:BEFORE an AfD. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 00:16, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

huh. He won the Indian Derby and 2000 Guineas at age 18 then died a few months later; these aren't exactly the most prestigious races but its still an accomplishment. This article has a decent overview.

Horse racing by City

Does anyone else think Category:Horse racing in New Orleans and others by city categories is too much? We break them down by state. I think that is all we need to go....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 15:15, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

That strikes me as very odd. We don't break down racing in New York (state) by city after all, and there's a lot more horse racing in New York than just about anywhere else. Huh, just noticed we categorize Kentucky races by the track (eg Churchill Downs and Keeneland), and then roll up those into Horse racing in Kentucky. That's probably the way we should do New York as well, but what then would you do with a race that has been held at multiple race tracks? Jlvsclrk (talk) 22:50, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

WikiProject collaboration notice from the Portals WikiProject

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Thank you.    — The Transhumanist   10:58, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Weatherbys

The Weatherbys article seems light. They appear to have had influence elsewhere in Europe which, apart from modern operations, makes no mention of older European operations. I have a German prewar map of Koenigsberg(now Kaliningrad), for example , which shows Weatherbys marked on the racetrack there.I'd looked for the Wiki page for more information, but there was no mention of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PeterDRG (talk • contribs) 11:34, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Vital Articles WikiProject - Trainers, Jockeys, etc.

The Vital Articles project is going to open up some more spaces for sports figures in horse related sports. Right now, there is a category called Equestrianism in the Sports Figures section. It currently has 5 people in it, 4 jockeys and 1 dressage. I'm going to poll here for the spaces that are opening up. Input would be most appreciated as we are not well versed in knowing the best trainers, for example. They say there will be room for about 5 trainers, 3 more equestrian sports people, and 2 more jockeys. They also had in mind including another dressage person Charlotte Dujardin. I think we have to be careful about including exceedingly modern members who haven't finished their careers yet. However, for example, Bob Baffert has already been inducted into the hall of fame, so we might include him. Phil Mickelson in golf was included for the same reason. Here's the current category members now:

Equestrianism (5 articles)

I'll put forward Tony McCoy, whose riding career has finished. 20-time champion jump jockey in Britain and rider of more than 4,000 winners. --Bcp67 (talk) 19:08, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
    • For trainers, I certainly wouldn't argue with Baffert if Justify wins the Triple Crown next week - only two other trainers have done that: "Sunny Jim" Fitzsimmons and Ben Jones, who would probably be my picks but are a little obscure to casual racing fans. John Nerud would be in the running too since he also had a huge impact as a breeder. All three of these articles deserve upgrading.
    • On the European side, Vincent O'Brien springs to my mind immediately, not only as a trainer but for his role in the foundation of Coolmore Stud. I think I'd want to include Federico Tesio, surely the only man to ever breed, own and train TWO undefeated champions that went on to become outstanding sires. Both of these would be higher on my list than any of the American trainers.
      • Great suggestions both. O'Brien as a great jumps and flat trainer and instrumental in establishing the Northern Dancer bloodline in Europe. Racing Post readers voted him the most influential racing figure of the 20th century in a poll a few years back. Tesio for his breeding and influence on the bloodline, especially with Nearco. --Bcp67 (talk) 07:00, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
    • For other equestrian sports, I'd suggest Anky van Grunsven: hard to argue with three consecutive gold medals!Jlvsclrk (talk) 05:20, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
      • My take on this, and I mentioned it over at the Vital Articles page, is that horse racing should be split off from other equestrian sports. Just as we wouldn't lump baseball and soccer players together, even though they are both ball" sports, it's impossible to really compare Olympic equestrians to horse racing equestrians. And for Dressage, oh god, no, not Anky, the Rollkur queen. (LOL) Many more deserving individuals (which I noted over there). And I question Cauthen. Montanabw(talk) 19:48, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Editing help

the name of the Gulfstream Park Handicap has changed. How does one go about changing the article title? Stretchrunner (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:08, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

@Stretchrunner: I moved the article since its quite clear that there is a new name and it has been raced under that new name. I have one recommendation to edits that you did. In the column for Win can you change that to total stakes or purse for the event, since that is the standard way articles document stakes amount. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 03:51, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
@Brudder Andrusha: Thanks for the name change for the old Gulfstream Park Handicap. You wrote: "In the column for Win can you change that to total stakes or purse for the event, since that is the standard way articles document stakes amount." -- Thanks for this input. I looked around at a number of races at Wikipedia and wasn't sure what to do because of the races with $ variations or nothing at all. The industry has many variations also which can make research hard. The Gulfstream Park (Stronach Group) Media Guide lists both the total purse and the winner's share of the purse. Stronach Group's Santa Anita Park lists only the total purse. The 2011 (only one produced) for Churchill Downs lists both but Arlington Park (owned by Churchill Downs) strangely lists nothing at all for purse money as does Keeneland, Turfway Park and Turf Paradise Race Course etc. However, the Media Guide of the largest and most important groups, the New York Racing Association tracks (Belmont Park, Aqueduct Racetrack, Saratoga Race Course), plus the Stronach Group's Pimlico Race Course and Laurel Park, all list only Win$ as far back as the 1860s as does Woodbine Racetrack, Calder Race Course, Los Alamitos Race Course, Emerald Downs, Hollywood Park, Oaklawn Park, Thistledown Racecourse and others. The substantial and excellent DRF historic database at the University of Kentucky archives gives both total purse and Win$ but unfortunately stops in the 1950s and is still quite limited and inconsistent in its annual reporting of North American races. The Thoroughbred Daily News lists both total purse and Win$ but there is daily reporting which only goes back to 1993. The huge worldwide database at Pedigree Query uses Win$ only. It used to be that if you had a total purse figure then 60% was a somewhat reliable number to calculate the Win$ unless it was an "added" purse. But, that has gone out the window with the new and varied redistribution of purse money most all tracks now use. Wikipedia uses a winner-only table and it was/is my opinion the purse reference should be relevant to that statistic. Plus, because there are many more tracks using Win$ reporting, I think it best to follow the NYRA & Pimlico/Laurel (USA), and Woodbine (Canada) who have the largest number of races and by far the most Graded stakes plus they include two of the three U.S. Triple Crown Races. Add to those tracks, the ones offering both total purse and Win$ provides the most substantial documenting for Wikipedia. Because of the aforementioned racetrack sources there are now races at Wikipedia which only show the total purse or nothing at all (such as all the NYRA races like the Travers Stakes, Jockey Club Gold Cup). Do you think this info with a summary should be posted on the Wikipedia:WikiProject Horse racing so those knowledgeable long-standing members can be informed and give their input? Thanks again. Stretchrunner (talk) 20:07, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
Showing the changes in the purse amount would be an interesting stat for the more important races, though I don't really think its needed in every case. I'd suggest showing the total purse since that's always been the most relevant statistic - it's the $2 million Kentucky Derby and the $6 million Breeders' Cup Classic – I've very rarely seen the winners amount referenced unless it takes the horse's earnings to some sort of plateau. Anyways, Equibase, the North American industry's single best reference source, shows the total amount on the race history screen going back to 1976 for every graded stake. You can get the win amounts back to 1991 by clicking on the chart in the past winners screen. Equibase data - Kentucky Derby Jlvsclrk (talk) 22:00, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
@Jlvsclrk: Thanks for the suggestion. Unfortunately, all of the races at Equibase have limited info and only go back to 1976. And, their race list does not provide either the race time or the owner's name, info that is required at Wiki. As such, it is not really useful and forces you to search elsewhere. You can open an Equibase PDF file to a specfic race for a specific year that will provide excellent full race details, but these are only available back to 1991. However, Equibase claims Proprietary rights and certain Copyright claims (bottom of their page) and if you open five of these PDFs for a race they will block access. Stretchrunner (talk) 22:37, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
@Stretchrunner: Although you've made a good analysis in your findings about this topic with regards to stake money and the winner's share there are a couple of issues to consider. In particular the focus is on the event - the actual race, and not just the winner and what was their share of the purse. The purse of the whole event is really the composition for the event which the article is about. Also results of an event are common knowledge and although the formatting of the way Equibase presents the "result" of the race the actual event is the proprietary of the Race Club which holds the race and it is in their interest to publicize the event. If the article was just about the winner, the I would kind of agree with you that the accumulation of stake winnings would go nicely with what the winner to away from the race. Also consider that we should be looking to standardize our articles so that the information from one event to another has the same feel. Its not too bad for US/Canada racing, but the format is different for European and also Australia Racing. While I think it is basically an impossible task to standardize across the whole world, but by region I think its fairly good. Also why is it important to have the winner's share of an event in the 1930's? If you have a reference fair enough but this could also infringing WP:OR and should we be going on beyond what Equibase offers if that is the only reference in the article. Which begs the question where did you get the winner's purse share for the winners in the Gulfstream Park Mile Stakes? The only reference is the article is The Gulfstream Park Handicap at Pedigree Query but if I open that, I don't see the stake won on any of the horses in the article. So it seems its not directly in that reference. Is it?
Anyway, this is a good topic to yarn about before who gets the winner's share in the Belmont Stakes. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 17:20, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
@Brudder Andrusha: Re: Pedigree Query - they have the master race page which shows the 1-2-3 horses, trainer, grade, winner's family #, distance and race time. (The new website will be up and running shortly but I have no idea if they can "squeeze" more info into the master page.) To see (or to edit anything) owner, jockey, winner's share of the purse, name of racetrack (if different from latest year), conditions (other than Graded, restricted or listed) then go to the top right of the race list and click on Add info for an additional year. Type in the year, then, to make life easy, type just the 2-letter word it in the winner box then when the page opens click any one of the horses named IT and then click on Add/Edit race at the bottom then when the next page appears, click on the blue colored click here and it will take you into the race box with full details. Like Wikipedia, at Pedigree Query you can create a completely new race, add another year to an existing race, or in an existing racebox you can fill in missing info or fix mistakes. --- As to the Gulfstream Park Handicap, I mentioned above that the Gulfstream Park Media Guide shows both Total Purse & Win$. However, I only edited the "Winners" list at Wiki and assumed the introductory contained a reference via a link to the G P Media Guide. I'll put it in shortly. --- The reason I raised the issue of Total Purse vs Win$ is that nearly 90% of all the races at Wikipedia don't have any Total Purse column at all. And the reason for that, is they are not available. I outlined above in my initial statement info on many of the most important North American racetracks as to whether or not they provide Total Purse or W$, or both, or none. Because the big tracks all use Win$ only, if we use Win$ we could complete 90% of those 90% races at Wikipedia. I'm about to post another new race but the only info available for all of the races is Win$. Note that although the Pimlico/Laurel Media Guide provides only Win$, a see where a Wikipedia contributor [User:Craiglduncan]] seems to have gotten a great deal of Total Purse info from someone somehow and put it in the races here - massive effort! Thanks, much appreciate your interest. Stretchrunner (talk) 18:28, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
Interesting discussion above. As Brudder Andrusha says, we tend to do things regionally and in my own area of interest, mainly British & Irish racing, we don't show anything about the history of prize money in race articles. It's a good subject though as it can show the development of a race - for example some of our Group races at the Glorious Goodwood festival have had a lot of money pumped into them lately and this has (perhaps) enhanced their appeal to owners and might led to increases in their status in due course. Beyond that nothing much to add apart from welcome to @Stretchrunner:, always good to see new editors and hope you enjoy what you do here. There aren't many of us but we bump along pretty well in our various interests --Bcp67 (talk) 19:30, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
Bcp67 - Thanks. Lots of work, maybe because I make so many mistakes that I then have to make several more edits just to fix. Don't know how much I'll be able to do. I'm a little partial to small tracks who have always struggled to stay alive and sadly, whose purses in recent years are mostly going down. Stretchrunner (talk) 19:53, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
@Stretchrunner: I put in some text explaining that the former name of the Gulfstream Park Mile Stakes is Gulfstream Park Handicap. If you click the link on the left-hand side of the page under Tools that says "What links here" you will see that there are approximately 30 articles that link to this topic, and they are all coming from pages where they being redirected because they are clicking a link that says the former name Gulfstream Park Handicap. And that is only one reason to keep content that tells users what the former name was. dawnleelynn(talk) 17:04, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
Thank you, dawnleelynn. Stretchrunner (talk) 20:07, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Milton's Choice deletion

I have nominated the page Milton's Choice for deletion. It's been up since 2009. A perfectly decent racehorse but not in the least bit notable. Unless anyone knows diferent... Tigerboy1966  19:35, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Goodbye for now

Sorry folks, I have had a password issue and it looks like I am going to be locked out from editing for a while. Tigerboy 1966 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.146.232.79 (talk) 23:02, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Noooooooo! Jlvsclrk (talk) 02:57, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
That's no fun. I'm sure the horse community will miss you. Hopefully you can get that resolved with Wikipedia more quickly than you think. If we can help, let us know. dawnleelynn(talk) 03:29, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
Sorry to hear this, hopefully you'll be up and running again sooner than you fear. --Bcp67 (talk) 07:04, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
I'm probably just being a bit of a drama queen about a minor technical issue which should be sorted in 24-48 hours. I switched browser and had to re-enter a bunch of passwords. Hint: if you forget your password, ask wp for a reset, have a cup of tea, and then follow the instructions to log back in. DO NOT keep entering the incorrect password over and over again while head butting the screen and yelling "let me in you b***ard". That sort of thing is frowned upon and gets you locked out. On the plus side Opera is pretty good. Tigerboy1966. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.146.232.79 (talk) 12:18, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
Went back to Chrome and logged in fine so it looks like a browser issue. Tigerboy1966  06:46, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
Whew! You had me worried there for a sec! Montanabw(talk) 21:24, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Gun Runner GA

Gun Runner (horse) has been put up for GA. I've made a few improvements, but any further help would be welcome.

BTW note that Collected (horse) does not link to the racehorse. Collected (racehorse) does not yet exist, but probably should do. Tigerboy1966  06:45, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Given that the first is a redirect to Collection (horse), the concept, AND because I'm kind of the Dressage geek you'd want to ask about this anyway, I see no reason just to take the redirect for the article, so long as there's a hatnote and any incoming links get fixed. Montanabw(talk) 23:19, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Kincsem GA?

I've been working on Kincsem's article and found some fun sources. Can anyone take a look and see if I slipped in a few too many anecdotes. I felt they were needed to convey her personality but the tone may not be quite right. Thanks! Jlvsclrk (talk) 16:50, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Interesting to see that you've used Julian Wilson's 100 Greatest Racehorses, one of the books on my shelves. Although would be more accurately titled "99 Greatest Racehorses plus one I owned"! --Bcp67 (talk) 20:03, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

WBRR top-rated horses without an article

Here are some targets for article creation. * indicates a 2018 rating. I've redlinked Benbatl because I'm half way through that one. If you pick one of these up it would be helpful to redlink as well.

Good luck. Tigerboy1966  20:23, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

For the American horses, Ron the Greek is the most interesting - I'll take a look after the Breeders' Cup rush if no one else picks it. Catholic Boy won the Travers and has an interesting turf to dirt angle, plus might do something at the Breeders' Cup to cement notability. Obviously has a few G1s, including the BC Turf Sprint. Collected has only 1 G1, though granted it was defeating Arrogate in the Pacific Classic. Gets injured a lot. He may yet pull something off at the Breeders' Cup. Pico Central is from 2004 with a string of G1 sprint wins. main rival speightstown if i recall. Mor Spirit is another Baffert horse like Collected who got injured a lot. Sharp Azteca sprinter with only 1 G1.
Several Aussie horses on the list. Chautauqua is a champion with a bundle of G1s so deserves an article. His farewell to racing was pretty unusual to say the least! Poor Happy Clapper has got stomped a few times by Winx but earned 3 G1s when she was elsewhere. I can tackle later if no one beats me to the punch Jlvsclrk (talk) 22:48, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
Quite a few of these got their high ratings from placed efforts. Norse Dancer never won above G3 but he was in the frame in umpteen G1s. Cherry Mix did win G1 races but the rating comes from his 2nd in the Arc. Ron the (The?) Greek was exported to Saudi Arabia, had his name changed to Wattani, and pretty much disappeared from the map. It would be interesting to find out what happened to him. Tigerboy1966  07:15, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Dick Turpin

How do we normally disambiguate horses with the same name? Today I have found Dick Turpin (horse), when we also have Dick Turpin (racehorse). Is disambiguation by year of birth allowed? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:09, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

  • The first method would be nationality as in The Tin Man (American horse) and The Tin Man (British horse). In the Dick Turpin case I checked there was no article titled Dick Turpin (horse) before creating, but forgot the Chester Cup winner. I would only use the (racehorse) dab if there was a famous horse in another field (no pun intended) for instance Sefton (horse) and Sefton (racehorse). By the above rule it should be Dick Turpin (British horse) and Dick Turpin (Irish horse).

Examples of notable horses from the same country with the same name are very rare but do exist, I just can't think of an example atm. Tigerboy1966  08:20, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Breeders Cup

I've got a boatload of photos from the 2018 Breeders' Cup to sort through and post. If they walked around the paddock, I've got a picture of them (and about 20 of my favorites like Enable)! Many of the pics include the jockey as well. Let me know if you're looking for any one in particular as I might not think to include a horse like say Clemmie that was more noteworthy a year or two again than now.

New articles will be needed for:

  • Newspaperofrecord - we might not normally do an article for the winner of the Juvenile Fillies Turf but she gave one of the great performances of the weekend and has attracted all kinds of buzz
  • Game Winner is presumptive juvenile champions
  • Stormy Liberal - back to back BC wins
  • Sistercharlie - a great year
  • Peter Miller - back to back doubles as a trainer in the Breeders Cup certainly meets notability
  • Drayden van Dyke - very hot young jockey in California, though the joke is that he keeps losing his good mounts to Mike Smith. got his first BC win
  • Paco Lopez - not many big wins but did just get his first BC win

There are a bunch of other articles that need expansion too. Joel Rosario is a stub and deserves better after winning three BC races! Jlvsclrk (talk) 23:33, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

  • Clemmie and Happily do have articles already and a pic would definitely be appreciated. I am concentrating on European horses atm but I can stretch that definition to included Newspaperofrecord and Sistercharlie who are Irish-bred. Tigerboy1966  16:13, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
  • We almost routinely do articles on the winner of the juvenile colt, so why not the filly! Drayden Van Dyke (note capitalization) [1] is a rider that is overdue for an article. I also have some photos of him already on WP that I took at Los Alamitos a couple years ago, so we can mix it up a little. Paco Lopez has been on my radar as well, like you say, not flashy wins, but his top 100 stats are solid. And personally, ya gotta love a horse names Stormy Liberal! I also had Peter Miller (horse trainer) -- on the horse people in red list for a while Montanabw(talk) 20:23, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
    • I'll do Game Winner and Stormy Liberal over the next week and will then move on to the missing people. As for my question about Newspaperofrecord... The Juvenile (colt) winner usually surpasses notability by becoming an early favorite for the Kentucky Derby, so its customary to do an article. The Juvenile Filly winner isn't quite as noteworthy as their form going into their third year isn't as consistent, but we normally do an article as well. Then there's the Juvenile Turf (for colts), which is often noteworthy when its one by a European horse (eg Mendelssohn last year), but less so when its one by an American because of inconsistent form. And then there's the Juvenile Fillies Turf, which is generally the least notable of the four. But this year, Newspaperofrecord really smashed it out of the park so has a real shot at Champion honors. Jlvsclrk (talk) 22:23, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
      • Should it be Peter Miller (trainer) or Peter Miller (horse trainer)? - I don't doubt its linked both ways where its linked at all. Anyways, I finished Game Winner and am on to Stormy Liberal. (speaking of which, my current favorite horse name = Stormy Encounter by Fed Biz out of Mons Venus, bought for $130,000) Jlvsclrk (talk) 02:35, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
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