Talk:Democratic-Republican Party

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Democratic Republican Party[edit]

I don't know if I'm right, but I feel that the intro should at least mention that the party started off as the republican party only. This is cause the current textbook I'm learning it from only calls it the republican party (Brinkly, American History, A Survey, Twelfth Edition) and most (if not all) of the first few sources on this page call it the republican party (at least in the summary of the source) ηoian ‡orever ηew ‡rontiers 03:29, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

You are not right. I would hope your teacher is in fact taking a more measured view; the current fad to call them Republicans is a recent and minority view, which distorts the contemporary evidence.
This is incorrect. First off, historian David McCullough and Joseph Ellis both refer to Jefferson's party as Republican in their Pulitzer Prize winning works. I also have a history book published in 1922 that refers to Jefferson's party as Republican and describes how Jackson formed the Democratic-Republican party. The opposite of what you claim is true. It was only recently that people have tried to attache the label "Democrat-Republican" to Jefferson's party. This effort appears to date back to the '90's and be a political attempt to whitewash the Democratic Party's true history and back-peddle from the fact that the party's early history included the Trail of Tears and a defense of slavery.
When the DR's were an informal group in Congress, Jefferson called them "republican federalists" (small r). This distinguished them from, on one side, the opponents of the existence of the Federal Government, like George Clinton and Patrick Henry (both of whom were to give up their insistance on this later), who were anti-federalists; on the other side, from those Jefferson called "monarchist federalists", who became the Federalist Party; they supported the Federal Government, and wished to make it stronger. (How unfair Jefferson was in calling them monarchists is disputed, then and now.)
They became a national party as an alliance between a Virginia group, centered around Jefferson, who often called themselves Republicans, and northern groups (chiefly in Pennsylvania and New York) who often called themselves Democrats. The Federalists called them all Democrats or Jacobins, as terms of abuse.
By Madison's second term, Democratic was becoming the normal term, North and South alike. In Monroe's presidency, the Federalist Party broke up, and had ceased to act in national politics; almost all of the national politicians belonged to Monroe's party. So divisions on policy and candidates became factions within the party, and they broke up into four divisions, each claiming the mantle of Jefferson: the National Republicans, the Democratic Republicans, and so on. Of these, the Democratic Republicans, who supported Jackson, were the largest, and eventually prevailed; they have a direct institutional affiliation with the present Democratic Party.
The DR's, properly so called, had virtually no national party institutions at all: only a Congressional caucus, frequently defied. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:43, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
The word "Democrat" was popularized by the French revolutionaries, especially "Citizen Genêt," French ambassador to the U.S. in 1793-94. To say that the D-R party was founded in 1792, as the article does, is an anachronism since no one called themselves a Democrat at that time.
The party existed, as a group within Congress, before 1792, and did not give themselves any proper noun. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:05, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Do you have a source for the assertion that Jackson's supporters were Democratic Republicans? At least in this example, from the 1832 convention, they called themselves Republicans. Kauffner (talk) 17:48, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
They called themselves many things, especially before Jackson's re-election; the Democratic Republican usage was particularly common before the breakup, while the four factions were competing ideologies struggling for Monroe's favor and the nomination to succeed him. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:05, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Despite such variations, at the beginning 1824 the party was generally known as "Republican."<:ref>Gammon, 155-156. In example: "Anti-Caucus/Caucus". Washington Republican. February 6, 1824.  Check date values in: |date= (help)</ref>

This shortening has changed Gammon's meaning. What he means is that, at the beginning of 1824, there was one party: that often called Republican. (invariably is demonstrably false; the Caucus proclamation linked to in the footnote says Democratic Members of Congress.) At that time there were factions within the party, several of them with names. By the end of 1824, they were separate parties. Gammon is not discussing the name of the united party at this point. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:46, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Read the document in that footnote more carefully. It states that the "Democratic members of congress" are seceding from, and I quote, "The republican party." The party name was Republican. It is disconcerting that some keep pointing to that one document (that doesn't even show what they claim it shows) as a supposed counter-weight to an avalanche of examples that demonstrate the party name was republican.
This topic has come up several times. The term 'republican' or 'Republican' saw the most usage during the 1790 up into the 1800s. However, the term "Democratic-Republican" has been used by some historians to help disambiguate the name from the current Republican party, perhaps because most stances on issues could be interpreted as be quite divergent. The term "democrats" as referring to the party had infrequent usage by significant party members, at least up until Madison's second term, so let's not give that excessive weight. Skyemoor (talk) 18:52, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

National Republicans[edit]

A conservative wing of the DR party, under John Quincy Adams, called themselves, and were called National Republicans; in general, they backed Clay and his program in 1824. Much the same group were later to organize themselves as the National Republican Party, before merging with the Whigs. This is not a bug, it's a feature. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:27, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Move Parsecboy (talk) 00:11, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

This page was moved in September from the hyphenated version to a dash version without discussion and with a summary reference to "WP:DASH". "Democratic-Republican" should be hyphenated,[1][2][3][4][5] and nothing at WP:MOS contradicts that. -Rrius (talk) 05:43, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

  • Comment Wikipedia is a bureaucracy. (talk) 08:09, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Support per nom, should be hyphen. TJ Spyke 17:05, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Support Always ignore MOS, but in this case, it should be hyphenated, as a compound. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:06, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Support Grammatically correct. Dabomb87 (talk) 23:32, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Republican Party Roots[edit]

The Republican Party is often said to come out of the Federalist Party with the Democratic Party coming out of the Democrat-Republican Party of the 1790s. Can anyone clarify this for me because this seems just the opposite of what the parties have stood for for the past 50 years. The Federalist Party was the party of big government while the Democrat-Republican party was always the state's rights party. Republican Party currently is big about being anti big government while the Democrats are all for increasing government involvement in daily life. So, the comparison between modern parties and the original parties seems to be reverse, at least for the past 50 years. --RossF18 (talk) 19:01, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Long standing political parties in a lot of countries have gone through significant shifts in their ideologies - look for instance at the history of both the British and Canadian Conservatives on issues like free trade or respective continental relationships where the position has shifted at several times and one generation finds itself implicitly repudiating the basic philosophy that defined the party at a crucial moment beforehand. Outside of single issue fringes and vanity vehicles, most political parties are broad tents that bring together a lot of personalities and interest groups who aren't 100% in agreement. The party as a whole follows a broad course that reflects the needs and demands of the interest groups as well as the national & world situation of the day. Over time the national & world situation changes, in turn changing the needs and demands of the interest groups backing the party. At the same time mini realignments can occur as one or more interest groups move from one broad party to another, shifting the balance within the party. Electoral effects also play a role as parties will seek to drop unpopular elements, even what might once have been seen as fundamental to the party in earlier times.
A few examples of the British Conservatives - they were protectionist until the 1850s (even deposing their Corn Laws repealing Prime Minister in 1846), then accepted free trade until the 1900s, then gradually adopted protectionism in spirit if not actual policy until finally implementing it in the 1930s, but then slowly embracing free trade, free markets and a firm opposition to state intervention across the post war years, culminating in the Thatcher era. They were also very enthusiastic about British membership of (what is now) the European Union from the early 1960s to the mid 1980s, but have since become decidedly more sceptical as the EU is now a very different beast.
US parties were traditionally quite loose beasts because different states had different issues, whilst the election system & dynamics place much greater emphasis on individual candidates and make it relatively easy for mavericks to win nominations and slowly push the party their way. Over time this just adds to the shift effect. Timrollpickering (talk) 06:49, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
3 things. First, as noted, party ancestry does not always coincide with party ideology, particularly in the USA where the two biggest political parties are 1)firmly, legally entrenched and unassailable; and 2)vulnerable to entryism 3)not obliged to offer a single national program. In America it has always been more cost-effective for an ideological group to take over an existing party (Dem/Rep) than it has been to uproot them and establish an entirely new party.
Secondly, I don't think it is true to say that the Democrats' ideology owes nothing to the Jeffersonians, unless you conside the "size" of the government to be the only political issue that matters. Both parties share the characteristics pro-immigrant, pro-civil liberty, pro-farmer and anti-finance. Both Republicans and Federalists share a concern for national security, law and order, and the interests of business. Of course there are any number of issues (government size, protectionism, black suffrage, treatment of Amerindians, slavery, expansion) where Democrats and Republicans have taken different sides in different generations, or have taken one position in one part of the USA and the opposing position in another part.
Thirdly, while it is basically true to say that the Democrats are descended from the Jeffersonians, it is a gross oversimplification to say that the Republicans are the descendent of the Federalists. The Federalists expired as a party in the 1820s, essentially because the Jeffersonians had moved closer to their way of thinking, and the ex-Feds became a powerful "wing" of the Jeffs.
The ex- (or neo-)feds later formed the national republican party, which got nowhere. After that party folded, they formed the Whigs, who had modestly more success. Then they folded too. The Republicans were formed as a coalition between northern industry and finance interests (historically Federalist supporters) and the anti-slavery movement. Once abolition had been achieved, the antislavery aspect of their ideology receded, and they became the party of business in the 1870s-1890s.
So, that is the link between the modern Republicans and the federalists. As you can see, there is a gap of 100 years between the formation of the Federalists and the Republican party as we know it today. That said, it is hardly surprising that the two parties, though linked, faced different issues and reached different conclusions about them. BillMasen (talk) 16:44, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
The modern party system, with a conservative pro-business Republican Party and a pro-labor Democratic Party, dates from the 1896 election. In the 19th century, mainstream politicians were generally conservative, whatever party they belonged to. The 1800 election pitted liberal Jefferson against conservative Adams, but most early elections did not have a left/right division of this kind. You mustn’t extend Jefferson’s philosophy to the D-R party since the party had both a liberal "Old Republican" wing and a conservative "National Republican" wing. Nineteenth century presidential nominees were often chosen on the basis of their status as war heroes, their political views unknown or concealed until after the election. Historians have tried to categorize Jackson ideologically based on his various policies, but to the voters he was guy who defeated the Brits at New Orleans, which made him either a can-do war hero or an untrustworthy and brutal would be Napoleon. Whig ideology was to support the supremacy of the legislature over the executive, but on most other issues they could be found on both sides. For a pre-1896 liberal tradition, you have to look to the Workingman's Party, Locofocos, abolitionists, populists and similar groups on the outside looking in. Under Cleveland and the "Bourbon Democrats", it was the Democratic Party that was pro-business and conservative. Kauffner (talk) 04:30, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Recent edits in lede[edit]

(1) The unsourced claim the name "Democratic-Republican" originated post-1824 has been repeatedly reinserted into the lede. The Party name section cites numerous earlier examples.
(2) Disputes about the name belong in the "Party name" section, not the lede. "Once such a (name) section or paragraph is created, the alternative English or foreign names should not be moved back to the first line," according to WP:Lede. The title of this article was chosen by a formal vote and consensus. The lede is "a summary of the important aspects of the subject of the article," not the place to dispute this decision. As far as which name is more common goes, "Jeffersonian Republican Party" gets 267 hits on Google Scholar while "Democratic-Republican Party" gets 1,800. Kauffner (talk) 02:49, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Are you talking about the current version of the lede? If so, most of your comments are no longer relevant; the current version is accurate (unlike some previous versions) and reasonably succinct, though it could be tightened. "Jeffersonian Republican Party" absolutely belongs in the lede, since that's the label (along with simply "Republican") favored by scholars over the last 25 years or so. Witness Gordon Wood's recent entry in the Oxford History of the United States series, Empire of Liberty (2009), in which the chapter on this topic is called "The Emergence of the Jeffersonian Republican Party". It's fairly uncommon to find scholars in the 21st century who uses the label "Democratic-Republican" for Jefferson's party; I could find no examples in my own library. In the archives of this talk page, a user did a nice survey of current college textbooks, and found that "Jeffersonian" and "Republican" was preferred to "Democratic-Republican" by 7 to 1. He was casting his pearls before swine, however, since he was unable to get his arguments past a now-banned abusive sockpuppet. As always, Wikipedia suffers when knowledgeable people get shouted down by naifs.

Your citation from WP:Lede is for when there are more than two alternate names, so it does not apply here. Also, your Google Scholar count is off, since it includes hundreds of entries for the Korean Democratic-Republican Party, among other false positives, and does not account for the name most commonly used by scholars, which is simply "Republican".

Your comments also conflate two issues: the wording of the lede, and the title of the article. I don't care what the article is called; Britannica's article is entitled "Democratic-Republican Party", so that's good enough for me, but note their second sentence: "Organized in 1792 as the Republican Party...." —Kevin Myers 04:38, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

There are many more than two alternative names for this party, so the citation from WP:Lede certainly applies. "Jeffersonian" and "Republican" are two other alternative names for the party, neither of which should be conflated with the name "Jeffersonian Republican."
Perhaps there are one or two contemporary citations for "Jeffersonian Republican Party", but this is almost entirely a historian's term. To say that the Madison or Monroe were Jeffersonian Republican presidents is confusing the poor reader for no good reason. If we say someone is a Reagan Republican, it doesn't imply that non-Reagan Republicans are in a different party. Even if J-R really was a better name than D-R, the lede is not the place to compare the two.
I can do a more sophisticated searches, but the bottom line is that "Democratic Republican" still ends up with a substantial edge. "Jeffersonian Republicans" | "Jefferson Republican Party" gets 1,980 hits, while "Democratic Republicans" | "Democratic Republican Party" -Korea" gets 3,050. Restricted to 1985-2010, its 1,470-2,140. Kauffner (talk) 15:03, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Again, I don't really see the relevance of your comments. I guess your argument is not really with me, but with the many historians who use a term that you think might be confusing to readers. You'll have to take that up with them; in the meantime, we'll have to be guided by WP:RS, and mention in the lede the label that leading scholars like Gordon S. Wood use. For my part, I think it's essential for readers to understand that Madison and Monroe were Jeffersonians; they were, after all, his most famous protégés. But my opinion about the labels, like yours about confusing the readers, is irrelevant here; it's what the reliable sources think that matters, as always. —Kevin Myers 13:06, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
Do you read what I write before replying? The stuff about alternative names belongs in the "Party name" section, not the lede. That is what the guidelines say and it is only common sense when there are so many alternatives, as in this case. Kauffner (talk) 08:10, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

The Party name and lede[edit]

The lede is again filled with various unsourced pet theories about the party's name. No, Jackson didn't call his party "Democratic Republican". It was "Republican", as you can see here. It you don't like "Democratic Republican Party" as the title, propose a vote to change the name. The text of the article, and especially the lede, is not a place to filibuster. Kauffner (talk) 13:58, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Did Jackson ever name his party? the 1832 source given here does not give an official party name, nor an unofficial party name. it does refer to "Republicans", but avoids the term Republican Party except once, on page 23, where it is talking about the past not the present. This goes to show the folly of depending on primary sources, which are very hard to interpret, and neglecting the many high quality secondary sources, prepared by scholars. Rjensen (talk) 14:06, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
"Republican" is on the title page. "Republican party" is used six times. On page 13, the "republican party" is contrasted with "national republicans." Historians call Jackson's party the "Democratic Party," not D-R. In any case, it wasn't the D-R party as defined in this article, so this stuff should be removed from the lede. Kauffner (talk) 14:23, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Four names in the lede??[edit]

The party is called four different names in the first paragraph -- Democratic-Republican, Republican, Jeffersonian, and Jeffersonian Republican. I quote WP:lede: "if there are more than two alternative names, these names can be moved to and explained in a "Names" or "Etymology" section." Kauffner (talk) 15:09, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

What the PARTY is named and what the MEMBERS are called are different issues. The party itself gets two names in the lede (D-R and JR). The members of the party are called republicans or Jeffersonians. so we fit the guidelines. Rjensen (talk) 15:21, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
You are claiming that "republican" refers only to the members and not to the party? What about the next section? Madison started the party among Congressmen in Philadelphia (the national capital) as the Republican party; Kauffner (talk) 15:38, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
1) it's not in the lede; 2) it's paraphrasing a quote (in the note)Rjensen (talk) 15:44, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
You put the alternatives in the lede when there ARE only two alternatives. There are many alternatives names in this case. It's not, "Pick the two that you like." Is there some reason for putting so many names in the lede? Those unfamiliar with the topic might think that more than one group is being referred to. "Democratic Party" isn't mentioned even though it is probably the most common way to refer to this party nowadays -- think of all the references to Jefferson as the founder of the Democratic Party. Kauffner (talk) 16:44, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
We should call the entire thing Democratic-Republicans, and mention J-R as only an alternative name. Not everybody in the D-R party followed Jefferson's ideals (he didn't follow his own ideals particularly well; he carried on the policies of the Federalists).
We can't be guided solely by what they called themselves. Their use of party names was not only inconsistent, but disingenuous. All parties at the time wanted to maintain the fiction (current in US politics today) that their prescriptions were just common sense, and didn't spring from any ideological source. This was, and remains, untrue.
Sometimes the D-Rs even called themselves Federalists, and vice versa. After all both names were chosen because of their positive associations, not their descriptive power. BillMasen (talk) 17:06, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
the rule at Wikipedia is to follow what the reliable sources are doing. In the last two decades, historians have strongly preferred Republican party, and Republicans; while political scientists prefer Democratic-Republican. Rjensen (talk) 17:33, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
Right. And the reliable sources use more than two names, such as Old Republican and Democratic. Therefore we pick one and put the rest in another section. BillMasen (talk) 20:41, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
The "Old Republicans" (or "Quids") were a distinctive faction. Few if any RS use "Democratic" alone--I cannot think of any.Rjensen (talk) 21:11, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
Yep, and the list of reliable sources that use "Republican" or "Jeffersonian Republican" without ever mentioning the somewhat obsolete term "Democratic-Republican" is quite long: Wood, Wilentz, Elkins & McKitrick, all the way back to Henry Adams. As far as I can tell, these guys, in their standard, prize-winning works, never use the term "Democratic-Republican" to describe Jefferson's party, and never even mention the term as an alternative. Even the Library of Congress Subject Heading, not exactly on the leading edge of current terminology, gives you this response if you search for the term: "Democratic Republican Party is not used in this library's catalog; Republican Party (U.S. : 1792-1828) is used instead." The argument that "Democratic-Republican Party" need be the only name mentioned in the lede is not rooted in a knowledge of the reliable sources. —Kevin Myers 21:38, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
to repeat: historians strongly prefer "R" and political scientists strongly prefer "D-R". So we include both in the lede. Rjensen (talk) 21:48, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
I agree, the lede must include the terms preferred by reliable sources, or our lede gives the reader an insufficient introduction to the topic. —Kevin Myers 21:57, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Requested move: → Republican Party (1792–1824)[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move. The argument that the shorter form may confuse the modern republican party with the jeffersonian party is persuasive. We should aim for clarity over confusion. I also note that, while there is a little more support for Jeffersonian Republican Party, there doesn't appear to be consensus for that name either (that surprised me but I am just the argument evaluator!). --RegentsPark (talk) 22:06, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Democratic-Republican PartyRepublican Party (1792–1824) — Jefferson, the leader of this party, called it "Republican." D-R is a minority form among modern historians, in modern popular usage, and in the usage of contemporary newspapers. Kauffner (talk) 00:19, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

After reading through the lengthy debate on this issue, I give the following summary:

1) "Republican" is the usage favored in the recent major historical works on the party, including The Age of Federalism (1995) by Stanley M. Elkins and Eric McKitrick; The Rise of American Democracy (2005) by Sean Wilentz; Joseph J. Ellis (several books); and Undaunted Courage (2003) by Stephen Ambrose. When there is a need to disambiguate between this party and the modern Republican Party, the pros use "Jeffersonian Republican", not D-R, e.g. Gordon Wood's Empire of Liberty (2009). On Google scholar, Jefferson Federalist "Republican party" -"Democratic Republican" gets 7,350 hits, while Jefferson Federalist "Democratic Republican Party" gets 923 hits. This comparison counts scholars who use both terms as D-R users, but still shows an overwhelming advantage for "Republican Party."
2) As far as popular usage goes, there are 569,000 Google hits for Jefferson Federalist "Republican party" -"Democratic Republican" vs. 23,900 for Jefferson Federalist "Democratic Republican Party". Again, this comparison counts those who use both terms as D-R users, but still shows an overwhelming advantage for "Republican Party."
3) Using Niles Weekly Register as a guide to contemporary usage, "Republican" was two to three times more common than "Democratic". "Democratic-Republican" was used only occasionally. The caucus that renominated Jefferson in 1804 was the "regular republican caucus" (Niles, Vol 25, p. 258), the closest I could find to an official statement of the party's name.
4) Names may be used by historians' that were unknown to contemporaries, e.g. "Byzantine Empire." But writers who use D-R often give incorrect or confusing explanations for it. Some claim that the name evolved from Republican to Democratic-Republican, e.g. Britannica. Others think that the Democrats and Republicans were factions within a Democratic-Republican Party. So the D-R usage both reflects and perpetuates misunderstanding of the party. (For the record, party members used "Republican" and "Democratic" interchangably. The compound form reflects the need of later authors to disambiguate from the two modern parties.)
5) The No. 1 reason people are interested in this party is because Jefferson belonged to it. To Jefferson, the party was "republican." There is a 14 MB archive of Jefferson's writing online.[6] In his first inaugural he said, "We are all Republicans, we are all Federalists."
6) For those who favor "Jeffersonian Republican Party", I note that this form gets only 274 hits on Google Scholar. Kauffner (talk) 09:47, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Oppose This name change could not fail to give the impression that this party is the direct ancestor of the modern republican party, which it wasn't. Weren't you in favour of Democratic Republican before? BillMasen (talk) 11:52, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Comment I don't know what I wrote that gave people this impression, but, yes, I have noticed a whole series of messages blaming me for the D-R title, both here and on my talk page. The modern Republican Party was intentionally named after Jefferson's party. Kauffner (talk) 14:59, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Comment Yeah, I know. But just because the modern Republican party wants to confuse people into believing it was the descendant of Jefferson, that doesn't mean we should help them out.
It's clear that we have to make a choice between several terms used by the academic community. Why not choose the one which isn't ambiguous? As you've demonstrated before, the name D-R was used at the time and has been used by scholars both, and moreover it can't be understood to mean anything other than what it does, in fact, mean. Someone stumbling across the article Republican Party (1792—1824) could well think it was about the history of the modern party, which it isn't. BillMasen (talk) 16:32, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Weak Oppose I think article text should use "Republican Party" most of the time but that the title, which needs to distinguish this party from the later one, should stick with its current title, especially since the beginning and end dates are debatable - Kevin Myers notes above that the Library of Congress gives 1828 as the end date. "Democratic-Republican Party" is, at this point, perhaps less used than "Republican Party." But we're not deciding between Democratic-Republican Party and Republican Party. We're deciding between Democratic-Republican Party and Republican Party (1792-1824), and the latter is not used by anyone that I'm aware of. john k (talk) 14:23, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Comment No one else uses "Republican Party (United States)" either. It is standard Wiki practice to use a "disambiguating tag in parentheses" in order to create a unique article title, which is required for technical reasons. See WP:PRECISION. Kauffner (talk) 14:59, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
This is true, but a commonly used form without parentheses is better. I'll note that my opposition is weak, though. I'd not especially mind the move. john k (talk) 23:48, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Support. The very nice summary by Kauffner of current and past usage shows that a name change is needed to bring this article title in line with modern and historic labels for the party. I previously wrote that D-R was adequate, but Kauffner has changed my mind. Additionally, during a recent rewrite of Whiskey Rebellion I became convinced that the title of this article was misleading other editors. Browse the "history" of the Whiskey Rebellion article and you'll find a number of editors confidently informing us that no, Jefferson's party was not called "Republican", which of course is erroneous. A formulation of Republican Party (some sort of disambiguation) would be more clear, accurate, and in line with Wikipedia naming conventions: whether that's Republican Party (1792—1824), Republican Party (1792—1828), Republican Party (Jeffersonian), etc., is open to question. —Kevin Myers 16:28, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
P.S. These should be en (rather than em) dashes, i.e. – Republican Party (1792–1824), Republican Party (1792–1828). —Kevin Myers 16:35, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
I dislike the ugly "Republican Party (1792—1824)" (with arbitrary dates that come from no RS) -- and please note that political scientists are the ones who use the D-R form and they use it in all their college and high school AP textbooks. I recommend "Jeffersonian Republican"--it avoids the arbitrary dates and makes the link to Jefferson and his era explicit. Rjensen (talk) 23:55, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
I certainly support "Jeffersonian Republican" too. Any of these options are better than D-R. —Kevin Myers 02:04, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Comment, oppose move to Republican Party (1792—1824), support move to something like Jeffersonian Republican Party: Republican Party (1792—1824) would be misleading because, although the modern Republican party is named after the Democratic-Republican Party, it is not the same political party. Personally, I've always heard it referred to as the Demoratic Republican Party (no hyphen), but Jeffersonian Republican Party would be an appropriate name. --- cymru lass (hit me up)(background check) 16:40, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Um, I think this belongs under the "Contested" section of the Requested moves page. --- cymru lass (hit me up)(background check) 16:40, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose move. The current title is the most readily recognizable of the options and is frequently enough used to not be OR. Powers T 23:01, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Your claim that it is "the most readily recognizable" is unsourced, and, as far as I can tell, not rooted in a knowledge of the reliable sources. Unsourced speculation doesn't do us much good here, and should be disregarded without prejudice. —Kevin Myers 04:51, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Recent scholarship does not trump a couple centuries of usage. --Orlady (talk) 14:56, 5 September 2010 (UTC) I suppose I'm showing my age, but when (as a U.S. kid) studied U.S. history (not U.S. political science, but history) in school and in college, this party was universally identified as the "Democrat-Republican" (or minor variants "Democratic Republican") Party. I find that this is the usage that appears in the historical Congressional biographies (see Henry Clay), the "Social Studies for Kids" website[7], the list of signers of the Declaration of Independence[8], and the U.S. government's website[9]. My paper reference book entitled "Dictionary of American History," published in 1978, has an entry for "Democratic-Republican Party" that indicates that this group was commonly called "Republicans" and states "Jeffersonian Republicans" is an alternate name; it has an entry for "Jeffersonian Republicans" that points the reader to the "Democratic-Republican" entry; and there is no mention of this entity under "Republican". I am prepared to believe that many modern historians would prefer "Jeffersonian Republican," but because long and widespread usage has favored "Democratic-Republican", that should continue to be the primary term in this encyclopedia. --Orlady (talk) 19:27, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
You could use that line of reasoning to argue that "African American" should be renamed "Negro". After all, when I was a kid, my text books called black people "Negroes", and recent scholarship does not trump a couple centuries of usage. But of course, that argument would be silly, unless you want to write an encyclopedia that is deliberately outdated. Perhaps you do, but I don't.
Moreover, I question your undocumented assertion that "long and widespread usage has favored 'Democratic-Republican'". Perhaps this is true, but the reliable sources seem to suggest otherwise. Jefferson called himself a Republican. The standard scholarly source a century ago was the work of Henry Adams; he always called Jefferson's party the Republican Party. The standard scholarly source 50 years ago was the work of Noble Cunningham; he called Jefferson's party the Jeffersonian Republican Party. The current standard scholarly sources, as people here have pointed out over and over again, don't use the term you remember from your childhood text books. Yes, we can find some older tertiary sources that use the term, and some web sources like "Social Studies for Kids", but those aren't the best sources to base our decisions upon. —Kevin Myers 04:42, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
By the way, when they revised the Dictionary of American History in 2003 (the 3rd edition), they renamed the "Democratic-Republican Party" entry to "Jeffersonian Republicans" (or "Jeffersonian Republican Party", I forget which). I realize that this will probably have no effect on the curious argument that modern scholarship is not particularly important, but I mention it just in case. —Kevin Myers 13:41, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Alternate proposal: Move to Jeffersonian Republican Party[edit]

Several editors have expressed support for renaming the article Jeffersonian Republican Party, the name many scholars use to disambiguate Jefferson's Republican Party from Lincoln's Republican Party. It has the advantage of being less cumbersome than the disambiguation proposed above, and more historically accurate than the current title. On the minus side, it's not as well known as the named preferred by scholars, which is simply the "Republican Party". This subsection is meant to gage support or opposition for renaming the article Jeffersonian Republican Party. —Kevin Myers 04:51, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Support. I believe that either option gives us a title more in line with our reliable sources. —Kevin Myers 04:51, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Support I think it solves the problems and is very close to standard usage in the RS. Historians often use "Jeffersonian Republicans"; they drop the "Jeffersonian" when they are dealing entirely with the Jeffersonian era so that the J term is implicit. Rjensen (talk) 05:10, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Oppose per my comments above. Powers T 12:58, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Support "Jeffersonian Republican Party" -Korea gets about the same number of hits as "Democratic Republican Party" -Korea. J-R is straightforwardly a historian's name, so perhaps less confusing than the ambiguous D-R. Even if the reader has never heard the name before, he can figure out that it is Jefferson's party. Inside the article, I'd like to see the name changed to "Republican" used. Kauffner (talk) 16:00, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Support I still think D-R is better, but at least this avoids confusion with the modern party. BillMasen (talk) 16:29, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Oppose; I'd much prefer the first suggested move to this one. john k (talk) 16:59, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
note that the D-R form is the common usage by political scientists, and historians rarely use the D-R form . Rjensen (talk) 17:33, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
Support--see my comments above —Preceding unsigned comment added by cymru.lass (talkcontribs)
Oppose. As described above in the section on the "Republican Party (1792–1824)" proposal, I believe that "Democratic-Republican" is favored by long-standing and widespread usage. However, if a different term is adopted, "Jeffersonian Republican Party" would be a far better choice than "Republican Party (1792–1824)". --Orlady (talk) 19:27, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
Let me try to shed light on the usage differential by political scientists and historians. Since the late 19th century, political scientists have preferred the D-R form; they usually include a short statement about the party in their textbooks and civics guides; they rarely do extended research as long as an article or book. On the other hand historians strongly preferred the R or JR formation, and they do write the scholarly books and articles -- the basic RS on which this article is built. Given the widespread usage in political science and government books, it is essential to keep a cross reference, and that is not at issue. At issue is whether this is primarily a history article based on the extensive in-depth historical scholarship, or a stub that reflects the brief coverage in government textbooks.Rjensen (talk) 19:50, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Conclusion of discussion?[edit]

Aren't these discussions supposed to be closed after 7 days? It's been almost 2 weeks and it's clear that there is no consensus for the move. BillMasen (talk) 23:33, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
There's a huge backlog at WP:Requested moves.... --Orlady (talk) 03:12, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
When someone gets around to it, they should keep in mind that, according to the closing instructions, "the quality of an argument is more important than whether it comes from a minority or a majority." The Wikipedians who favor a move have, on this and previous occasions, cited many reliable sources to support their argument, and many more could be listed. Aside from Orlady, those who favor the current title have not really attempted to make a case or cite any reliable sources. Since an opinion is not the same thing as an argument, I think it's pretty clear that there's a consensus of informed opinion to rename the article. —Kevin Myers 04:22, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
You can't be part of the disagreement and simultaneouly judge the 'quality' of the other side's arguments. The point is, D-R is used in the sources, and it's just naive to expect sources to give a definitive answer to every question of this kind. So we have to use our own judgment. BillMasen (talk) 12:40, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
Of course I can comment on the quality of the other side's arguments. If the other side does not engage with the reliable sources when making its argument, an essential part of my argument is to point this out. I'm a big believer basing Wikipedia decisions upon a survey of the reliable sources, even when it means that I must change my initial opinion, as has happened here. I'm always a bit surprised when I encounter Wikipedians who don't share this philosophy. —Kevin Myers 13:30, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
As has been demonstrated, D-R is used by reliable sources, among other names including Republican. My point is that they do not give a clear answer as to what title should be used. So why not use the only one which is neither misleading nor ambiguous? Given that the sources are capable of supporting either title, we have to choose somehow. BillMasen (talk) 14:20, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

POV Problem[edit]

The article contains the following text: "The Republican party of 2010 bears little resemblance to the original, as it is now a promoter of big business, corporation, millionaires/billionaires and have little sympathy for the "common" people."

Just delete, no? This is partisan propaganda and would seem to have no place in an encyclopedia article . . . Nomenclaturist (talk) 20:46, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. I reverted the edit and sent a message to the user who added that statement. --Orlady (talk) 20:57, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Party name in article[edit]

I suggest that the name "Republican Party" or "the party" be use internal to the article, esp. on the tables. Aside from the reasons given above (it was contemporary usage, it is the usage of modern historians, etc.), it is a standard practice to use a shorter form after the first reference. If "D-R" is required in the title to disambiguate Jefferson's party from that of Lincoln and Reagan, that is certainly not true inside the article. Kauffner (talk) 08:42, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

I think that is the correct approach. (The "D-R" title probably won't last in the long run as we attract more editors who are familiar with the reliable sources.) How do you feel about occasional alternatives within the text, for the sake of stylistic variety, such as "Jeffersonians" and "Jefferson's party"? —Kevin Myers 13:28, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Kauffner & Kevin Myers on this.Rjensen (talk) 07:10, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
I think we should call them D-R all the way through. But as long as the page has the right title, it doesn't matter that much. Moreover, apparently it will make you all very happy to do it your way, and I'm sick of arguing :) BillMasen (talk) 11:26, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
I see that User:Kauffner, a primary advocate of renaming the "D-R" party the "Republicans", has subsequently been banned for sockpuppetry. I suggest that this entire argument needs to reopened in light of that. (talk) 08:00, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

IP Vandals[edit]

Make it semi-protected! There has been some IP vandals now. SomeDudeWithAUserName (talk) 22:20, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Small font when printing[edit]

Why is the font so small (compared to other wiki pages) when I print this? (Mozilla Firefox) Dave C. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 20:45, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Party Name[edit]

I know this has been discussed to death, but I would like to make a case with links in favor of using the "Democratic Republican" term for Jefferson's party. The term is used by the | White House, by | Monticello, and most importantly by sources in the Library of Congress. A search of their Jefferson Papers for the term "Democratic Republican Party" will produce primary documents that use the term: party members use the term "Democratic Republicans" in their correspondence | here and | here, and Jefferson uses the term | here and | here. There are literally hundreds of primary documents at the Library of Congress Jefferson Papers | query that show the contemporary use of the term. The terms "Republicans" and "Democratic citizens" also seem to be used - as the party wasn't a modern, branded mass political party, names seem to have been used interchangeably - but the term "Democratic Republicans" should not be dismissed as some sort of archaic fringe term that is only used by a subset of political scientists. There is actual historical use behind that term.Konchevnik81 (talk) 20:41, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Konchevnik81 is relying on his OR into primary sources--that's great but the Wikipedia rules say we have to follow the Reliable Secondary Sources (RS). Basically the problem is that today most historians use "Republican Party" and while the political scientists use the D-R version. I favor the R version since this article relies mostly on historians. Rjensen (talk) 20:47, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
But how is using primary documents available free online OR? Literally, the Library of Congress has letters written by Thomas Jefferson himself and scanned online that are addressed to the "Democratic Republican" party. That's pretty backward if primary sources are somehow not considered as reliable as secondary sources (which for some reason do not include the official White House historian, or the Monticello Foundation, or Encyclopedia Britannica, all of which refer to the "Democratic Republican Party"). Also, I would say that "most historians" sounds suspiciously like weasel words. I'm not arguing that the "Democratic Republican" label should predominate, but I think it definitely deserves a stronger mention in the lede as a term used contemporaneously, and by current histories.Konchevnik81 (talk) 21:44, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
OK, I consulted the Wikipedia: No Original Research page. That's not what I'm doing. I'm not basing the entire argument on primary sources: I've cited two (admittedly short) secondary sources from organizations that are pretty reputable when discussing Jefferson (I can provide a Britannica link too, although I understand that Britannica is not looked upon very highly in these parts). The primary sources are backup for the claim that the term has wider use than solely among modern political scientists - the claim of which currently has a request for a citation in the article. The primary sources are being used with care, and with minimal interpretation: the letters literally are addressed to or from Democratic Republicans, usually on the first line (it's also used in the name that the Library of Congress uses to sum up the letters' contents). As I wrote, I just think that the term "Democratic Republican" deserves an equal footing as a term used for this party, and should not be dismissed without a citation as a term invented in later periods by political scientists, and that is one no longer used by historians.Konchevnik81 (talk) 22:03, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
the problem is that old primary documents are very easy to misinterpret, as Konchevnik81 has done here. For example TJ never called his party the D-R party--though he did address a couple letters to groups that used D-R in their title. The vast majority of local Republican groups never used D-R, although a few did. The compromise worked out over time was to use D-R in the title and R in the text of this article. As for historians' usage, look at the titles in the bibliography for solid evidence. Rjensen (talk) 22:05, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
But that's a greater interpretation of the primary sources than I'm doing. How can Jefferson never call his party the "Democratic Republican party" and at the same time write letters to "Democratic Republicans". That doesn't even make sense. He's using the term, as are people considering themselves members of the party, even if other terms like strictly "Republicans" are simultaneously being used. "Democratic Republican" was a term in use during the first decade of the 19th century. And the White House blurb is from Michael Beschloss. That's not "solid evidence" that a well-known and respected historian of presidents uses the term to discuss the party?Konchevnik81 (talk) 22:10, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
"The vast majority of local Republican groups never used D-R, although a few did" Then why not write this (in a more neutral way) in the lede, instead of an uncited claim that "Democratic-Republican" is a term invented by political scientists?Konchevnik81 (talk) 22:14, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
OK, I did that. Rjensen (talk) 00:47, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
So, Primary sources can be used to demonstrate that Jefferson used "Republican" (as is currently the case (see note 1), but it's naughty OR to use them to demonstrate that Jefferson used "Democratic Republican"? that's blatant POV pushing. (talk) 07:56, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
"D-R Party", stress here on the word 'party', I think was first used in the 1830 period to designate the party we now call the Democratic Party. Jefferson, the other party leaders & newspapers did not call it the D-R Party, although there were a few D-R local clubs. I have not seen any group that called itself the "D-R Party". I don't think Jefferson ever used "D-R Party". However in modern scholarship political scientists use the "D-R Party" because it keeps their comparative tables easier to read. Historians usually use "R Party" because that was its name when it was active. Jefferson when writing to club members of course used the club's official name but notice that neither the club nor Jefferson used the term "D-R Party." Rjensen (talk) 08:57, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Ambiguous source citations[edit]

Several sources in this article are cited in common shorthand, like so:

Chambers, 80.

While this may be acceptable formatting for Wikipedia, it introduces responsibilities in the editors to ensure the citations make sense. I just repaired such a citation that failed to identify which of several listed sources it referred to:

Adams, 207–208.

which could have represented any of three cited works by someone named "Adams": two from Henry Adams (listed at the top of the lengthy References section), and one by John Quincy Adams (the correct one) at the very bottom. (And this assumes that no one deleted any other "Adams" works from the "References" section, which can happen due to simple error or vandalism.) It took some effort for me to find that the third is the correct one.

I resolved this problem by updating the reference to be a full citation. I did this for several reasons. First, it's not only unambiguous, it's also not likely to be made ambiguous by people adding other references by people with the same surname. Second, it avoids the problems of desynchronized "Notes" and "References" sections that frequently occur with the continuous, multi-party editing of Wikipedia. Third, there's no need in a digital work like Wikipedia to "save space" by abbreviating. It does reduce clutter, but this advantage, in a section that very few people read anyway, is more than offset by unanticipated editing problems often caused by crowd-sourcing. (The full citation also made it easy to add a Google Books link to the actual quote for easier verification.)

I'd ask other editors of this article to review all the abbreviated cited references to ensure there are no other ambiguities or outright mistakes, and consider using more detailed citations to avoid future problems like this. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 01:08, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Requested move September 2014[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Jenks24 (talk) 13:36, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Democratic-Republican PartyJeffersonian Republicans – This U.S. political party, active from 1792 to 1825, was rarely if ever called “Democratic Republican” when it existed, but rather "Republican." You can search either the Philadelphia Aurora or the Nils Weekly Register, both major newspapers affiliated with the party, to verify this for yourself. In his first inaugural, Jefferson said, “We are all Republicans, we are all Federalists” -- nothing about Democratic-Republicans. The classic treatment of this party is The Jeffersonian Republicans: The Formation of Party Organization, 1789-1801 (1958) by Noble Cunningham. The proposed title let's the reader know that the literal name of party is "Republican" while disambiguating Jefferson's party from the modern party of the same name. The current name suggests that Democrats and Republicans were once part of some larger party that then split apart –- This is, of course, nonsense. The proposed title is also very widely used, as you can see from this ngram. On Gscholar, "Jeffersonian Republicans" -Korea" gives you 1,310 post-2000 hits, "Democratic-Republican Party" -Korea gives you 1,270. OK, let's cut to the pinging: Rjensen, Konchevnik81, BillMasen, Kevin Myers, Orlady cymru.lass, Powers, john k. La crème de la crème (talk) 11:32, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

  • Oppose. Democratic-Republican is more commonly used. The White House, for example, uses the term. As does Britannica. Calidum Talk To Me 12:00, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
    • On the page you link to, the party is mentioned three times. They use "Republican" twice, "Democratic-Republican" once. "Republican" is clearly the correct name, what Jefferson always called it. That should count for something. Update. I noticed that the White House site describes Madison and Monroe as "Republican" only.
  • Note that it's the current name for the party, not the historical one, that's important here. Regardless, this very article points out that "Democratic-Republican" is not without contemporary evidence. Anecdotally, the current title is the one used by my textbooks in school, but I can't argue that the proposed title isn't equally valid. Powers T 17:16, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
    • I don't have anything against anachronistic names. The problem with D-R is that most of the people who use this name don't realize it is anachronistic. They assume this was a name the party called itself, which leads to a lot of confusion. It really wasn't, as you can see here. La crème de la crème (talk) 03:38, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Support. Republican is far more commonly used by scholars and historians who know all about the period and actually write about it (see the book titles in "Further Reading"). Political scientists (and interns at the White House) who specialize in today's politics like the D-R variation because they go for tables that compare different parties and don't want two "Republican" parties to mix up the students. The J-R version solves their problem. Rjensen (talk) 18:40, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep the Democratic-Republican name as the title, but make sure that the other name gets prominent billing as an alternative. Democratic-Republican is the name I learned in school, it's what Wikipedia has used in the past, and I find it to be more common as the primary name in online sources. In addition to Britannica, there's Social Studies for Kids, Princeton University, the Gilder Lehman Institute of American History, U.S. History in Context, Ohio History Central, and jrank free legal encyclopedia. Yes, there are other credible websites that use "Jeffersonian Republicans", but they seem to be less numerous, and I find that some of them use the word primarily to refer to Jefferson's contemporary supporters, and only secondarily on the political party (for example: [10]). --Orlady (talk) 03:49, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Jefferson's party was "the Republicans," as any history of the period will tell you. I added "Jeffersonian" to avoid confusion between this subject and the modern party. The RM is not based on the idea that "Jeffersonian Republican" is the common name! La crème de la crème (talk) 04:47, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Outside the American perspective, what about Canadians, Aussies, Kiwis, and Brits? They have lived under the Queen for years and know what a "republican" is, but they may not be totally familiar with "Thomas Jefferson" or "Jeffersonian" etymology. The title change may confuse overseas readers, so the simple current title and the party's premise should help them acknowledge one of political parties of the United States (besides Democratic Party and Republican Party), which has been a role model (good and/or bad) for world politics. --George Ho (talk) 04:25, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Jefferson is far more notable than this party. In fact, the party's main claim to fame is that Jefferson was a member. La crème de la crème (talk) 14:43, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
      • In where besides the United States? --George Ho (talk) 20:53, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose despite the nom. Google search, history books more often use the current title. Editor La crème de la crème's point about They assume this was a name the party called itself, which leads to a lot of confusion. That is what the article itself should dispel. "Jeffersonian Republicans" has its own anachronistic flavor and its own likely uninformed reader assumptions, and is no better in that regard. --Bejnar (talk) 15:25, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
  • There seems to be a psychological block of some kind regarding this issue. The ngram and gscholar results show pretty conclusively that D-R is not the most common form of the party's name. Both the White House site and Britannica use "Republican" more than they do D-R. Yet editors are somehow able to look at both of these pages and see only "D-R." Dictionary of American History, the standard reference work in this field, uses "Jeffersonian Republicans." Recent histories that use "Jeffersonian Republican" or "Republican" include works by David McCullough, Stephen Ambrose, Sean Wilentz, Joseph Ellis, and Gordon Wood. Wood's Empire of Liberty (2009), probably the most highly regarded work on this period, has a chapter entitled, "The Emergence of the Jeffersonian Republican Party." La crème de la crème (talk) 03:45, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
  • You don't really need to reply to each and every comment you disagree with. Calidum Talk To Me 12:10, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
  • You know what would be nice? If people read the nomination before voting. It includes an ngram comparing the commonness of the the current name and the proposed name -- which you obviously didn't notice. I have now developed a more sophisticate ngam. It shows that the two names are about equally common overall. As I showed in the my previous post, the authorities in this field, the people who know what they are talking about, don't use D-R. La crème de la crème (talk) 00:40, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose. "Jeffersonian Republican" is a description, not a proper name. The party is either called the Republican Party (which would require significant disambiguation) or Democratic-Republican, which, while anachronistic and arguably misleading, is also both a name and completely unambiguous. The article should explain that "Democratic-Republican" is a post hoc name of convenience, like Byzantine Empire, and it should generally use "Republican" in the text, but I still think it is, all things considered, the best title to use. john k (talk) 12:28, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose - majority of reliable sources use Democratic Republican Party. GoodDay (talk) 19:09, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment I did another post-2000 Gbook analysis. I'd estimate that the party is called D-R about 30 percent of the time. (Compare here and here.) According to the ngram given above, the usage of "Jeffersonian Republican" is about about equal to D-R, so another 30 percent. The remaining 40 percent of the time the party is presumably referred to as "Republican" without a qualifier. La crème de la crème (talk) 08:55, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Moving the article to Republican Party (United States, 1791-1825), would be acceptable. GoodDay (talk) 10:36, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
  • Oppose - I think it reads fine as it is, and I think the comparison with "Byzantine Empire" is apt. Jeffersonian Republicans is alright, although someone correct me if I'm wrong but I'm not sure that was actually a more common contemporary name (if people were really going to invoke Jefferson, they'd say "a Jefferson man" or something similar). Definitely NOT "Republican Party" with the arbitrary dates, because that implies that the article (erroneously) covering a particular period in the current Republican Party's history. I'd also say that it's too vague, considering that there were groups like the Old Republicans during most of that time, and the National Republicans towards the end of that period. But I think that the article is clear that D-R is mostly an anachronistic term used for clarification in certain writings, but that had some usage during the time period concerned. Konchevnik81 (talk) 14:22, 12 September 2014 (UTC)