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viewtalkeditchanges

Watch out for subtle vandalism[edit]

I just reverted and temporarily blocked 109.10.202.98 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) after they went on a spree of changing video game infobox parameters to false ones (usually publisher and developer). Given that IPs in a similar range (109.9.46.141 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and 109.10.211.21 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)) have been doing the same thing over the past few days on some of the same articles I'd appreciate if you kept an eye out for this happening on any games on your watchlist and report the IP to WP:AIV or let me/another admin know. Thanks, Sam Walton (talk) 11:12, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

86.220.198.247 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) - This one also seems to be changing developer information in the info box. AdrianGamer (talk) 15:44, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, seems to be the same thing, reverted. Sam Walton (talk) 22:30, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

You need to get more rollback happy, see 109.13.72.201 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and 109.9.0.33 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). - hahnchen 15:59, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

*sigh* Yes check.svg Done. Sam Walton (talk) 22:02, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

More 90.19.213.171 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) includes image deletion. - X201 (talk) 07:10, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

And here are some from November 109.9.18.230 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) - X201 (talk) 09:16, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

I've done some digging, including the ones mentioned above, these are the IPs that need undoing.
109.9.46.141 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) Yes check.svg Done
109.9.18.230 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) Yes check.svg Done
109.9.12.12 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) Yes check.svg Done
109.9.11.203 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) Yes check.svg Done
109.9.10.133 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) Yes check.svg Done
109.9.0.33 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) Yes check.svg Done
90.19.213.171 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) Yes check.svg Done
109.13.72.201 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) Yes check.svg Done
109.13.243.6 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) Yes check.svg Done
109.10.211.88 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
109.10.211.21 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) Yes check.svg Done
109.10.202.98 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) Yes check.svg Done
109.10.201.92 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
86.220.198.247 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)Yes check.svg Done

- X201 (talk) 10:59, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Reverted both the first flags, and I too have found a bunch more IPs to add to the above list, 190.79.236.143 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) appears to be doing the same thing though some edits seem ok, 190.198.33.202 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) too (this was blocked as a proxy, I suspect the rest of the above IPs are proxies too?), 109.9.25.212 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 109.15.84.213 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), and 109.10.198.62 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) too. Sam Walton (talk) 11:16, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
I'll get round to reverting all these soon (if anyone else wants to feel free - I've marked the ones I've done in the above list), but in the meantime MusikAnimal has set up an edit filter to log further vandalism of this kind; Special:AbuseFilter/653. Sam Walton (talk) 16:50, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
Cyphoidbomb appears to have some experience with these IPs, do you have any information that might help us? Sam Walton (talk) 22:03, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
Hi Samwalton9, here are some of my Paris tags (some unrelated content is included). I think you've pretty much found all the ones that I had intersections with. I've started adding my own tags when I start seeing patterns develop... Regards, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 22:35, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
I just skimmed Cyphoidbomb's Paris tags to see if there had been any childrens-cartoon-related vandalism in the mix. Sure enough... As I said back in April of last year, that's a pretty telltale sign for me. There are large numbers of these creatures on Wikipedia that I've been aware of since 2012. It's really sad. And it always gives me pause when I'm describing vandal MOs because it's so easy for vandals to change behavior if they see a thread like this. Anyway it may be a good idea to drop a note at SVT for profiling reasons. -Thibbs (talk) 11:33, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

@Samwalton9:I think your friend is back. The IP range fits, and the edits seem in the same vein see Special:Contributions/109.9.56.18 - X201 (talk) 17:00, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Chronological templates[edit]

Hi everybody,

There have been discussions about this in the past, that templates that based upon in-game chronological order are not following WP:VG/MOS, as it is WP:GAMETRIVIA, leading to the deletion of templates based upon the timeline of Assassin's Creed, The Legend of Zelda, Grand Theft Auto, Medal of Honor and Call of Duty. To my surprise I found a Category that just list these kind of templates (see Category:Video game fictional chronology templates, not sure how to link to the page!) What do you say about coming to a decision here whether to have these templates or not, or at least come to a consensus what would at least be a minimum of having one around?

To me, some aren't necessary, like Template:Banjo-Kazooie chronology and Template:Killzone chronology, because the main series' article (assuming there is one), can easily explain how the games are set. Template:Silent Hill Chronology and Template:Devil May Cry chronology also list 'other' games, beside the 'main series'. That at the same time breaks the very chronological order, but also makes clear that some entries aren't connected plot-wise to others. But Template:Yakuza chronology lists non-canonical games (two that are set in the past and the zombie spin-off). Then there are some templates that mention other works, like comics, novels and films in the same fictional universe, like Template:Perfect Dark chronology and Template:Dead Space chronology. The deleted template on Assassin's Creed was also one that listed novels and such, which I actually nominated for deletion. Other templates feature game series with games with titles that aren't clear how they fit in the chronological order, like Template:Metroid chronology, Template:God of War chronology and Template: Metal Gear chronology.

So, any thoughts? --Soetermans. T / C 15:26, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

This is my opinion on chronology boxes (hereinafter referred to as timelines for ease of typing). Series which are not in a strictly serialized format (Metroid, Metal Gear, The Legend of Zelda) should have timelines, if not for every article then for the series article. Deciding on such things should take into account the size of the series: the larger the series, the more need there could be for a timeline. Smaller series (Devil May Cry, Dragon Age, Drakengard) can be followed without the need for a timeline. Others which do follow a serialized format or have no set chronology and/or setting (Assassin's Creed, Persona, Mass Effect, Tomb Raider, Final Fantasy, Tales, Fire Emblem) should not have a timeline. --ProtoDrake (talk) 15:47, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
Key is that the chronological timeline must either be very obvious (Assassin's Creed works in this regard since all the games have a clear presentation of the date they they place), or sourceable (eg like Zelda). If it requires original research, as I think the Metroid timeline would require, then we should not be including this, but can discuss any sourcable concepts of the chronological timeline on the main article. --MASEM (t) 15:54, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
That's a good point. The timelines should also be able to be reliably sourced. --ProtoDrake (talk) 16:02, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
I think ProtoDrake has a good argument with how bigger the series, the bigger the need for a timeline. Zelda does however have three different timelines, that might need some brainstorming. How do you guys feel about adding other media into the template, like Dead Space does? I think that in this case a recreated Assassin's Creed does make sense, with II, Brotherhood and Revelations taking place in the Renaissance and III and so on in the American Revolution, with IV taking place before III (with novels, comics and so on). Oh, Ubisoft. --Soetermans. T / C 20:22, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
I actually think that the current Zelda timeline template, though a little... awkward, is better than something akin to the Assassin's Creed one. Because of the way Zelda is constructed, a linear progression with notes is more confusing than its current layout (to me, anyway). And this brings me to something else we need to consider: when to include or exclude extra material such as DLC and novels, as this can make timelines bloated if taken too far. --ProtoDrake (talk) 20:37, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
In my opinion, if the chronology of a series is notable and can be serialized without original research, then a template for its chronology can be used. In contrast, if there are no reliable, third-party sources that support the chronology of a video game series, then the template should be avoided as it is game trivia, which is irrelevant to the general reader. Personally, I would nominate Template:Perfect Dark chronology, Template:Banjo-Kazooie chronology, and (probably) Template:Metroid chronology for deletion. I can't speak for the other series you mention as I'm not very familiar with them. --Niwi3 (talk) 19:35, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
@Niwi3:, concerning Metroid this video (from Nintendo via GameTrailers), shows where Metroid: Other M appears, and this original Retrospective video from the same site gives the series' overall chronology excluding Other M. I know it's not very good. It doesn't need to be used. --ProtoDrake (talk) 20:22, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
If that video is considered reliable, then that would probably be a good source. It can also hardly be called gametrivia, as it describes the overarching plot of the Metroid series, rather than simply giving details about how "these games do exist in the same timeline! Ha!" ~Mable (chat) 20:38, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
Updated. See above.
Ok, it seems fair to keep the template for the Metroid chronology because of those sources, but I'm seriously considering nominating the other two for deletion. --Niwi3 (talk) 22:45, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

I just wanted to let everybody know that I nominated Template:Perfect Dark chronology and Template:Banjo-Kazooie chronology for deletion. If anyone cares, please discuss this matter at TFD. Thanks in advance. --Niwi3 (talk) 14:41, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the input guys. @User:Niwi3, I haven't replied to the deletion proposals myself because there was nothing else I could say. I think we've established a couple of minimal requirements: first, the need for such a template, second, it has to be more than mere gameguide material, and third, if we can verify the information.

Metroid and MGS have passed the test at least. There aren't that many entries in the category, so let's review the ones we haven't discussed, shall we? I think we can keep these three at least:

  • Template:Kingdom Hearts chronology: might be worth keeping, because the release and chronological order isn't the same. Three numbered I entries, a prequel before the first game, two between the first and second, two between the second and third. And also, the series (to me at least) is very confusing, but it does has a overarching narrative.
  • Template:.hack chronology: from what I understand there are different entries, not numbered in a logical chronological order. It also mentions OVAs and a anime movie. Seems worth keeping.
  • Template:Dead Space chronology might be a keeper too: it lists 'main entries', spin-offs, comics, the direct-to-dvd movie and narrative DLCs.

In my opinion, these can go. @User:Niwi3, @User:ProtoDrake and @User:Sergecross73, any thoughts?

I'm not sure about Template:Professor Layton chronology and Template:Ace Attorney chronology, is the chronology important for these games? I haven't played them and I thought they were mostly about solving cases and winning courtcases. Template:Front Mission chronology is so huge, sheer size alone makes me wonder if it's worth having around. Template:God of War chronology doesn't look necessary either, but maybe @User: JDC808 has some input? --Soetermans. T / C 09:30, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Personally I think all timelines should go unless they are sourced. - X201 (talk) 09:51, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

The only one that has a source out of the ones selected is the Devil May Cry series pre-reboot, and that can easily be folded into the main article. I agree that the Kingdom Hearts (can be referenced using GameTrailers Timeline program, and probably official material from Square Enix) and .hack, but I don't see the need to keep Dead Space. All the others can go. --ProtoDrake (talk) 10:28, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
I agree that a source is vital, or possibly, maybe, if a timeline is considered particularly important, it could exist without a source. Some games are more story-based than others, which makes the timeline much more notable. Most of the timelines mentioned above - as long as they don't have a source, should probably be deleted. Layton and Ace attorney, being for a large part visual novels that I haven't played, I have no idea. ~Mable (chat) 12:03, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
I'm not very familiar with those series, but I think the Dead Space chronology is not necessary; two of its entries don't exist, some are DLCs that redirect to their corresponding base game, while others are non-notable books that might not be part of the series canon. The template actually reminds me of the one we had for the Mass Effect series. As for the others, I doubt there are reliable, third-party sources that support them, so they can go. I might be wrong, though. --Niwi3 (talk) 19:30, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Deletion nomination help[edit]

I think we can delete a bunch of the templates then. To nominate them all individually for the same reasons is silly, so maybe an admin can help out here? --Soetermans. T / C 12:53, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

@User: Sergecross73, any chance you can help out? --Soetermans. T / C 10:52, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed this the other day. Actually, as much as I take part in deletion discussions, I actually don't nominate hardly anything for deletion. I mean, I could try to help, but if you're aiming for speed and efficiency, I'd be a terrible choice. Maybe another Admin, or someone who does more with automated edits, could help? Salvidrim!? PresN? Satellizer? Sergecross73 msg me 15:09, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
Sure, if you tell me what templates to nominate and what's the content of the nomination I can procedurally push it to TfD on your behalf. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  15:12, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the help guys. Salvidrim, if you please: Template:Onimusha chronology, Template:Killzone chronology, Template:Ys chronology, Template:Devil May Cry chronology, Template:Silent Hill Chronology, Template:Dead Space chronology, Template:Professor Layton chronology and Template:Ace Attorney chronology. I noticed that for some reason Template: Perfect Dark chronology still exists, even after the result was delete. They're all based upon in-universe timeline, which is either not that important to merit its own template or it the chronology of the series is vague at best. --Soetermans. T / C 16:43, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Okay, but can you compose a short nomination? I'll really just post it "as is" on your behalf. ;) ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  16:46, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
No problem, what about this? Per the outcome of this discussion, these templates have been found to be trivial information, based upon in-game information. How these games are chronologically set can also be easily explained by the main series' article. --Soetermans. T / C 14:42, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
You know, if we have consensus here, I'm not sure a TfD is even needed. I'll mull it over and do something about the whole thing this weekend. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  15:51, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
WP:Local consensus applies. TFD is absolutely necessary. --Izno (talk) 17:44, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
It may be good to get some outside input on the situation as well. (It could lead to an even stronger consensus for the future too, if WP:FILMS and other media-based projects see the same way we seem to here...) Sergecross73 msg me 17:51, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

On the status of our A-class articles[edit]

I checked the Article statistics page and according to the monthly statistics table, we've been at 42 A-class articles since November 2013. I used to champion the class during my early days here. But now I'm uncertain about its use for this project. We've have had multiple discussions about the class with no real movement. I just think we may need a definitive consensus on what to do with it. GamerPro64 00:23, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, now I know that at least one person has that page watchlisted for when I update it (graph updates to come in February, btw). Anyways, I say we kill A-class. We've never really gotten behind it; we may have unofficially agreed on "2 editors agree it's A-class at the assessment page", but almost no-one uses it. We probably have several hundred GAs that are as high quality as the average A-class that will never be nominated, and I've never seen anyone go through A class before taking an article to FAC. If we do end up keeping it, we should do a sweep of the GAs to see which ones should be A-class. --PresN 00:29, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
I agree that A-class should be cut. It can be useful for a project that wants to use it—see MILHIST. Like PresN said, though, WPVG has never really cared for it. I doubt a single tear would be shed if someone were to retire it. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 07:30, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
It was one explained to me that seeking A-class is a way to vet potential FACs, but to me it just seems like kind of a waste. I certainly don't think all of the articles marked as A-class deserve to be - Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door and Pokémon Red and Blue come to mind. It's not even necessarily that they've degraded, but more selection bias: the articles that have received an A-class rating got it years ago, when GA reviews tended to be much looser than they are now. Tezero (talk) 07:54, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
  • I'm of two minds: (1) we appear to lack the reviewer muscle to handle our bread and butter reviews, nevertheless this, but (2) if we actually used it, it would make our slog of a FA process less of a cleanup. I think of A-class review (ACR) as our internal FAC. (Our FACs are mostly WPVG people anyway.) A-class is a way to queue up two FAC reviews before it sits and languishes on the list of FACs. It would only work, though, if they got the two reviews. (This said, we can let them sit at ACR for longer than at FAC.) Prior to this discussion, however, is our treatment of reviews as cleanup instead of rubber stamps. It's one thing to address a few relatively minor points or to apply one's very specific nitpicks (that could not have possibly been addressed by any other review), but we shouldn't be sending FACs with major issues when they can be feasibly addressed in-house (or at least told in a lower-stakes environment that it's not ready and what it needs). Considering our recent issues with WPVG-based opposes at FAC, it should be less disheartening to break the news here than at FAC. I'd be curious to know what gets other people to give reviews, but I know I'd be more willing to give reviews if my role as a reviewer was less strict and more about broad stroke responses, which I think A-class allows over GAN and FAC. I'm thinking about putting up an ACR just to see how it would go... czar  14:22, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Ping me if you'd like some feedback on it; I'm trying to get more active here again as I'm taking care of some real-life obligations. I agree that it can be much less pressure-ful than filling out a full FAC or, oddly, especially a GAN, since with those you're really expected to evaluate every one of the GA criteria to the letter. Tezero (talk) 21:30, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
  • I would be in favour of erasing A-class articles entirety from the VG project as some other WikiProjects have already done - I hope I don't sound harsh in saying that they are both a drain on resources and some are left with cobwebs. They could easily become worthy GAs and through that way more people would be inclined to contribute to them. Put simply, I think GAs are more mainstream. There are 757 GAs here compared to 42 A-class articles, with that being said I think if there was a proper discussion about this then there could easily be a consensus. Jaguar 00:10, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
  • I suppose the category isn't doing any harm, but it's analogous to the old (now removed) hidden comment sections on talk pages: just not conducive to cleanliness. Tezero (talk) 07:00, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
Note to all that we do require our A-class articles to be GA-class first before applying. We do not have any A-class articles that are not also GAs. --PresN 06:11, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
I am tempted to say that this idea needs to be thought of alongside the FAC thread below. If we know that FAC is lacking a rigor that we know we really want to strive for, I would propose that we aim our A class to be "as best we can assure an FAC will pass" level - meaning including the copyedit, ref checks, etc. It would be the best we know we can product while FAC may or may not happen due to increasing lack of participation there. --MASEM (t) 07:04, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
Speaking as a supportive outsider to WPVG, I can tell you that Milhist's A-class has made a big difference in getting drama and learning curves out of the way so that they aren't a drag at FAC ... but that's only because we've always been lucky enough to have people who really enjoy reviewing at A-class. Of course, anything that can be done at A-class can be done at peer review. - Dank (push to talk) 21:10, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

So are we keeping A-class in the project? GamerPro64 21:27, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

It looks like we're in favor of getting rid of the idea of "A-class" articles. That said...
Between this and the FAC thread below, I've been thinking about what we can do to better prepare our articles for FAC. We're seeing a lot of articles fail, often multiple times, and even the ones that make it through have a lot of work- and it's pretty much all in the prose department. We used to generally send articles to PR or GOCE before FAC, but PR barely gets any responses and GOCE takes a long time. Maybe what we should do is replace the A-class assessment process with a copyedit process. Even with the understanding that a copyedit won't prevent more prose problems being brought up at FAC, I think most of our FACs would really benefit from having someone, anyone, give it a runthrough for prose issues before nomination. Obviously the issue with a semi-formal copyedit request system is getting people to volunteer, but I think unlike the review processes a copyedit doesn't require the volunteer to take an oppose/support stand at the end, just help out a bit, so we may get more people.
Does anyone else have any ideas in the regard? It could be as informal as just a request here at this talk page, or a separate process page, or whatever, I just think that a second pair of eyes on an article before nomination is more helpful than an A-class review that takes 5 months and doesn't go too deep. --PresN 22:08, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Our FAC standards[edit]

Lately, I've read a few FAC-related posts that got me thinking about WPVG's standards. The first was from SandyGeorgia:

I am not sure what you are referencing with "increasing standards since 2009". You can find the benchmark dates in the FA process among the footnotes at this chart (which by the way hasn't been updated since 2011, hint, hint) UPDATED. The last time there was a change in the criteria was March 2009: we've had only minor wording changes for clarity or linking since then. The last benchmark change in FAC reviewing processes occurred in November 2010 (copyvio checking was tightened). Reviewing standards have become more lax: we no longer have, as examples only, the highly detailed sourcing checks which were done by Ealdgyth, prose checks on the level of writer Tony1, and copyvio checking also seems to have declined. I could name scores of FAs still on the books that are not up to snuff, but don't do so as not to single out any particular group or editor. I don't doubt that at least a quarter of our FAs are out of compliance. More importantly, because no one has been systematically checking, how do we know if it's not worse?

SandyGeorgia

The second was from Czar, posted today:

Prior to this discussion, however, is our treatment of reviews as cleanup instead of rubber stamps. It's one thing to address a few relatively minor points or to apply one's very specific nitpicks (that could not have possibly been addressed by any other review), but we shouldn't be sending FACs with major issues when they can be feasibly addressed in-house (or at least told in a lower-stakes environment that it's not ready and what it needs). Considering our recent issues with WPVG-based opposes at FAC, it should be less disheartening to break the news here than at FAC.

Czar

As someone who remembers the (helpfully!) savage QA of people like Ealdgyth and Tony1, and who's perplexed by the newly lax FAC process—particularly at WPVG—, I found these comments insightful. FAC standards are lower across the board, but WPVG has been hit especially hard. In my opinion, this is mainly because our reviews are much more insular than they were in 2006 or 2009. Even back then, our project was infamous for its lower standards, but that problem was offset by WikiProjects' cross-pollination at FAC. We don't have that anymore. And now, as Czar points out, we're seeing flawed VG noms passing after major cleanup—or, in a few cases, without major cleanup. (Proud as I am of the FAs I worked on last year, I was shocked that they didn't receive the hard-hitting feedback I remembered—they were far from perfect.) WPVG is contributing to a new and poorer understanding of FAC, in which the bar is low and the burden on opposing reviewers is high. I see only two solutions: either WPVG's internal vetting is toughened significantly, or we somehow bring back cross-pollination at FAC. Right now, we're among the worst offenders when it comes to FAC's drop in standards, and that just can't continue. This will probably be a controversial post, but I thought it needed to be said. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 05:18, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

While I'm aware of FA having some problems of late due to lack of reviewers and likely leading the looser standards, I haven't had done an FA for good while now, so could I ask what are some examples of problematic articles or why the VG articles seem to be lower standards? I always thought that we generally tried to keep up our FAs as good standards, but I am likely missing something. --MASEM (t) 05:39, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
I see the current status at FAC vs. 2009ish differently than JimmyBlackwing. Namely, the biggest difference I see is that nowadays no one opposes. Ever. They just... don't support. In 2009 an FAC with good-but-not great prose would get an oppose from reviewers like Tony1, who would post 5-10 prose problems he found in the first couple sections and tell the nominator to fix all the problems like that through the whole article. Nowadays, you don't get that, so it gets split two ways- either no feedback, leading to a failed nom due to lack of comments, or an incredibly lengthy prose cleanup review.
Yeah, now that I think about it, I really only see (or give) opposes when an article blatantly doesn't even fit the GA criteria when it's nominated for FA, which isn't often. Tezero (talk) 16:33, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
It was also always a bit hit-or-miss whether you got a "hard-hitting" review- for example, my January 2010 Flower FAC is around 1/4 the size of my May 2014 Infinity Blade FAC. While I know my prose is still mediocre at times, it certainly hasn't gotten worse in 4 years to demand much, much lengthier copyedit-reviews.
The way I see it, it's just luck, like how my AP calculus teacher back in high school technically could check homework in detail for correctness, but only really did when he was pissed off at the class - sometimes people handed in literally blank sheets of paper and got all the points. As nominators, we're expected to have the article either already at the FA criteria or within shooting distance, although by circumstance it might not be checked to maximum rigidity. Tezero (talk) 16:33, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
I will say, though, that it was common practice 4/5 years ago to send an article through a WP:GOCE copyedit prior to FAC; it doesn't seem like people do that much anymore, likely in part because they don't want to wait 2 months. --PresN 06:24, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
That's definitely the case for me - even extensive FAC commentary warranting an initial oppose tends to take much less time to resolve than a GOCE copyedit takes to happen. Tezero (talk) 16:33, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I am one of those copyeditors. While it always helps to have second opinions, I've seen copy requests returned in worse state and professional editor-approved drafts held to some otherworldly prose bar at FAC. The process is not foolproof and there is a very wide range of standards for "acceptable" and "professional" (read: licentious) prose, so let's not pretend that there is a predictable consistency at FAC (or GOCE, for that matter) apart from the clear cases. Instead let's accommodate and accept what it is: totally dependent on the reviewers and their whims (as is normal for editing relationships) czar  18:43, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
My two cents: like any wikiproject, you guys are in a position to make a lot of the rules yourself over time ... success naturally leads people to assume that the wikiproject knows what it's doing ... but only if you've got a few guys who review consistently with the goal of making the process work for everyone, trying to strike a balance between what other FAC reviewers are likely to ask for and what writers are likely to be willing to do. - Dank (push to talk) 21:26, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Today's featured article/February 11, 2015[edit]

Hi guys. The two FAC noms for this one aren't around. Crisco_1492 has picked this one for a Main Page appearance soon. I had to squeeze the text down to a little over 1200 characters, and I also decided to include something about the selection of playable characters; that may appeal more to the Main Page readership. Was there anything I left out you'd like to see put back in? - Dank (push to talk) 21:19, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

I notice it doesn't include any of the characters' names. Would, say, "duty-bound loner Squall" or just "the loner Squall" be alright, for example? In comparison, I think the information about music and reception (namely, the Famitsu accolade, which seems unusually specific for a TFA blurb) could be pared down a bit. Looks good overall, though. But what's with the extremely brief treatment of the plot and characters in the lead? That could possibly fly for a Crash Bandicoot, Pac-Man World, or Mario game, but the Final Fantasy series is known even among RPGs for its deep, lengthy stories and memorable characters. Tezero (talk) 17:43, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
First two items done; last one is up to you guys. - Dank (push to talk) 18:05, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Note also that we've got to keep this limited to 1200 characters (maybe 1250, as there's no image). Too detailed a treatment of the admittedly quite complicated plot will push the number over the limit (on a side note: I can't believe this article is almost 7 years old and hasn't run on the MP. VIII usually has a very vocal fan base). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:18, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
  • I'm usually going a little over 1200. WP:ITN didn't have a problem with that. - Dank (push to talk) 17:01, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
  • (re: side note) True, but FF6, 7, 10, 11, and 12 have all been on the main page, along with the series article, and the main page schedulers don't generally go for popularity. --PresN 18:54, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Except for the fact that we have WP:TFAR, which does not seem to have had a visit from FF in ages despite the fact that the main editor(s) could have nominated the article. (And yeah, we don't usually go for popularity... but for an article like that to go six years without a main page appearance is just a shame). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 20:34, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Proteus copyedit[edit]

Would someone be able to give Proteus a copyedit? A full copyedit by a fresh pair of eyes has been requested at the FAC. Thanks, Sam Walton (talk) 21:41, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

This was the first time I've ever really critically looked at a FAC, and it just looks amazing, I can't think of much, if anything, to improve about it. Because of that, I'll look forward to see how this goes and how it will be improved (if at all).
The only thing I did notice was that I'd rather put the sentence on the Shacknews staff poll one paragraph earlier. Right now, the reception of the audio is surrounded on both sides by much more general reception topics, which reads odd. I'm afraid to make edits to such a high profile article, though ^_^; ~Mable (chat) 09:04, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Video game references in firearms articles[edit]

Many modern video games feature realistic versions of real-life firearms. Naturally, editors interested in those games like to add references to those games in the articles on the firearms themselves. Members of the firearms wikiproject, WP:GUNS, object to these additions and have even created a project MOS guideline calling for that material to be routinely deleted. Wikipedia:WikiProject Firearms#Pop culture. Since it keeps getting re-added, it's clearly something people want. It could be legitimately kept if there were references which showed that the firearms are important to the individual games. However such citations are rare. For example, see FAMAS#Popular culture. I've noticed that many game articles do not include lists of weapons or discussions of their importance either, so it's not easy to just look to those articles to find sources. Do online and print magazines discuss video game weapons, and if so could those references be added somewhere? How else can we bridge the divide between video game content and firearms content on Wikipedia? Rezin (talk) 00:12, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

I haven't seen much that would be relevant for inclusion (for instance, a list of "Top Counter-Strike guns" is talking about guns in a video game; they aren't perfect replicas of the real article, so relevance is rather minor.) I can understand why the GUNS people would object to what's essentially trivia. If there were sources about a demonstrable impact outside the games ("Because of Counter-Strike, more people purchased P90s") that might merit inclusion. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 00:40, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, in my experience video games reviews (and even the individual game's booklets) seldom give a firearm any more than a trivial mention, such as listing it as a useable weapon or perhaps briefly commenting on how well the weapon handles in game. It would be rare to find a game where a particular "real" gun is of significant importance, or to find a review that gives information that would be considered useful to WP:GUNS. For example, a review that compared the weapon's use in-game to how it handles in real life might be of significance, though I can't say i've ever seen one of those. (Incidentally as a person with military training I often find how "real" weapons handle in-game laughable, i've played games where characters can easily reload belt-fed machine-guns while they are running; clearly the developers never tried to test how impossible that would be to do.) I for one thoroughly support removing all unsourced pop-culture mentions. I very much want to delete that entire FAMAS pop culture section. Freikorp (talk) 00:48, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
To put things into perspective, there are 192 games listed in Category:World War II video games. Now I know every game does not have a firearm in it, I don't see why 60+ games should be included on the Colt 1911 page saying the gun was in that perspective game. It would be the same as adding a citation for every time that weapon appeared in a movie or television series. It distracts from the focus of the article. Adding reliable information about changes in demand or cultural reception like User: David Fuchs suggests is the only way I could see the inclusion any type of video game info beneficial. --Molestash (talk) 00:54, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for these prompt responses. Template:In popular culture instructs: "Please reorganize this content to explain the subject's impact on popular culture rather than simply listing appearances; add references to valid content rather than deleting it if possible." Taking that as a guideline, it'd be sufficient to show that a firearm is particularly important within a game, or has been the subject of special discussion. But if the video game press doesn't generally discuss weapons then there probably isn't much hope that such entries could ever be sourced. It sounds like the practice of just deleting the unsourced material without first tagging it with "citation needed" is sound. Rezin (talk) 01:35, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
I expect that some day, there might be a case where a gun within a game is notable on that gun's article, per the sources existing, but until that rare situation comes up, its better to leave video game appearances out of gun articles. The state FAMAS is in is just hilarious, and unsourced to boot. I suggest we remove that section entirely. ~Mable (chat) 08:44, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
As a side note, and I don't mean to get political, but discussion of video games in gun articles or discussion of real world guns in video game articles can't be good. It seems like every time there's a shooting incident, one or the other or both get blamed for something. --Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 06:51, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
Funnily enough, that seems entirely irrelevant here, as these guns or games aren't tied to violence in any way. It seems more like a case of http://www.xkcd.com/446/ , where the popular culture section is bloated with trivia. Either way, we got video game controversies and list of video game-related deaths to handle most of discussions relating video games with violence. ~Mable (chat) 07:55, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
xkcd is a genius. Rezin (talk) 01:12, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
I concur with the sentiment that the popular culture sections are inappropriate; invariably they are full of original research. In fact I can't every remember seeing one with a reference. That said, practically speaking it will be quite a headache to enforce. People will continually come back to add the information and there will be lots of conflicts. There is a long history of conflict over pop culture sections in wikipedia but they always seem to survive by persistence. I don't think it is worth the trouble in the long run; periodically trimming the section and eliminating the more egregious examples of original research is probably the best we can do. Vrac (talk) 13:15, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
Give me a few articles that have this issue frequently, and I'll revert any such edit as soon as I can. It can't be that many articles that frequently have these issues, right? Also, wouldn't a semi-protection be valid if people consistently add unsourced, not-notable information? Either way, at least a commented-out "Please don't add video games" could probably go a long way to make people think twice. ~Mable (chat) 15:28, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
I don't have a list handy, but I'll post some on your talk page - thanks.
Regarding a hidden comment, I'm not sure where to put it. If at the top, it might be ignored. But right now, as I'm typing, I see a great big banner that's apparently called a 'page notice'. If there's an easy way of putting one of those on a few hundred articles it might help. I'll check it out. Rezin (talk)
A few hundred? This happens that often? Either way, such a banner might be too much, especially to use it on a massive amount of articles. A hidden comment right between the last section and the see also/references section. Might be more useful. I didn't expect more than 20 articles to have this issue, though, so this might be harder to deal with than I expected :s ~Mable (chat) 07:53, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
It might be a hundred or less that routinely involve video games. Since the additions and deletions are done quietly there's no easy way to get a handle on the number or articles involved. However the "pop culture" issue also involves movies and TV shows, which is where the "hundreds" come in. Sources are sometimes available for those, though it's rare to see anyone adding them. My thought was to write a short notice, something like "Please do not add entries to appearances of this firearm in video games, motion pictures, TV or video programs, or other popular culture without including a citation to a reliable secondary source describing their significance. Unsourced entries may be removed." Does it make a difference to the server load, etc, to use a page notice versus a hidden comment? Rezin (talk) 18:11, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
That sounds like an issue that exists on all of Wikipedia, though - I'm not sure if specific guns are more prone to these issues than many other topics. That would be an issue to discuss within your own Wikiproject, though. "It's not our job" to work on your articles ;p I have no idea what the best way to handle this is myself, anyway. ~Mable (chat) 18:23, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
Of course. I raised the issue here to see if you guys are aware of sources which could be used, and it sounded like the response was that there aren't. That's all I needed. Maybe if someone becomes aware of a great new source, like "A Guide to Firearms in Video Games" published by Oxford University Press, please let me or someone else over at WP:GUNS know about it. Thanks again for the input. Rezin (talk) 18:40, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

esports players[edit]

Should pro gamers be referred to by their legal names or by their gamer handles?--Prisencolinensinainciusol (talk) 08:05, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

As always, it depends on which usage is most common. Their legal name is generally put in bold in the first lead sentence either way, but the rest of the article (including the title) depends on the most common usage by media outlets and the like. ~Mable (chat) 08:37, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
See WP:COMMONNAME. Use the most commonly known one, mention both in the opening sentence. Sergecross73 msg me 13:43, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
Exactly, there is no rule that says that he have to use legal names. For example, we use Hulk Hogan over Terry Bollea.--65.94.255.73 (talk) 22:54, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within at FAC[edit]

I have nominated Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within (which I successfully nominated for GA in 2010) for FAC, see here. It is currently on the verge of receiving its first support. While it is not under the scope of this project, not only was it a video-game inspired film, it is of significance as it holds the world record for the most expensive video-game inspired film ever made. Therefore I feel I have grounds to shamelessly beg here for reviews for the nomination. In exchange for a review of the nomination I will gladly review any GA of FAC of your choice. Have a nice day. Freikorp (talk) 12:15, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

A video game movie, eh? I've only seen Advent Children and that was years ago, but I'll review this if you can take a crack at Freedom Planet, which has one support now and failed last time from inactivity. Tezero (talk) 17:39, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
@Tezero: I reviewed Freedom Planet; i've never seen an FAC with so few sources so it took less time than expected. I only found one issue which I mentioned at the review. Freikorp (talk) 01:50, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
Done. There are only two FACs in the urgent list (at the top of WT:FAC), and they're both WP:VG articles; if you want to review the one you haven't reviewed yet, it shouldn't be too hard because the reviewers have covered a lot already. - Dank (push to talk) 18:14, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for your review Dank. I'll review Saturn shortly. Freikorp (talk) 01:50, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
Dank, I hate to ask, but what's stopping you from supporting Saturn? It only needs one more, and you've already copyedited it to your liking. Tezero (talk) 19:13, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
Here's my comment at the FAC. I'm giving some thought to whether I can get more involved in VG; I'd have a bit of a learning curve, but OTOH, I need to learn how to condense VG featured articles for the Main Page. - Dank (push to talk) 20:09, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
But that doesn't answer my question. I already know you've commented; that's how I know you copyedited it. Tezero (talk) 22:44, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Dark Forces at GOG.com[edit]

An IP user has requested that the recent GOG.com release of Star Wars: Dark Forces be noted in the infobox. It's my understanding that we don't generally note releases on GOG unless they're remastered versions. Am I right about that or am I hallucinating? I'm not 100% sure one way or the other, so I wanted to ask before I did anything definite. Thanks guys. Bertaut (talk) 00:46, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Correct, GOG is a storefront- we list out the first release, but we don't say anything if Best Buy puts it out on shelves a couple years later. If it's been remastered, we're actually just listing that a remastered version was released, rather than focusing on which store sold it. --PresN 04:34, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
PresN has it right. Unless the only release is through GOG, then no, we don't note that. --MASEM (t) 04:40, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
That's pretty much what I thought. Thanks guys. Bertaut (talk) 04:47, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
GOG.com can be mentioned in the article body though. The release section also mentions PSN for instance. Kotaku and Game Informer made a note of the game appearing on GOG.com. --Soetermans. T / C 09:39, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Metal Gear: Ghost Babel[edit]

There is an ongoing move request; join in to improve consensus. --George Ho (talk) 21:28, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Review Thread VIII: The SeeD of Good Editing[edit]

Figured I'd just jump straight to the review begging/collusion here, since the available GANs, PRs, and FACs are all listed in our project navbox. Anyway:

  • Just to continue tradition, I am reminding people to take a look at Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Requests if they are interested in new articles to create. Or help decide if the articles being requested meet notability standards. Always good to help out in the project. GamerPro64 02:07, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

GameFAQs EL and template[edit]

Hi everybody,

This has been brought up before, with the outcome usually being no consensus, but what do you think of GameFAQs and Template:GameFAQs? I don't see why we should use GameFAQs as an EL, let alone keep a template for it. GameFAQs is not a WP:VG/RS as it "relies on user-submitted content with no apparent editorial oversight." So why is sometimes used as an EL? It provides cheats and walkthroughs, just like hundreds other websites out there. Isn't it time we got rid of it? --Soetermans. T / C 14:22, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree with that. I typically remove it if I see it as an EL in an article I'm working on, for those reasons. Sergecross73 msg me 15:19, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
External links do not have to be reliable sources, see Wikipedia:External_links#Links_to_be_considered. IMDB and Mobygames are likewise user-submitted with no apparent editorial oversight. I do not include GameFAQs links in articles that I write, but that's just a matter of preference. - hahnchen 19:49, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
And I, on the other hand, frequently include fan wikis as these are, by design, more in-depth than what we're allowed to offer, since if someone's gotten to the bottom of a page, they may well want more information - it's essentially the "(Full article...)" link on a TFA blurb, but squared. Tezero (talk) 20:51, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
My rule of thumb is that if a template exists for an external resource, then it's good enough for use on Wikipedia.
WP:VG/EL states that IMDb, MobyGames, and (elsewhere in the MOS) GameFaqs are examples of permissible ELs. It differentiates between them and others that aren't allowed, even though they are all "fan-basesd sites". (It also proscribes against linking to homebrew clones and 1UP/IGN/GameSpot there, too, so we need to wipe those out.) Ylee (talk) 21:03, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
I agree, @User: Tezero, a dedicated wikia goes beyond mere gameplay and often they encompass the whole franchise and every bit of behind-the-scenes stuff. I also thought about MobyGames, @User: Ylee, but I think because MobyGames tries to catalog every game it can be especially useful for older games. GameFAQs however just solely serves as a walkthrough website. WP:VG/EL states "Additionally, Wikipedia is not a game guide - external links should not be added to include material that explicitly defines the gameplay on certain aspects of the video game", which is just what it's for. --Soetermans. T / C 21:21, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
The "Wikipedia is not a walkthrough/game guide/fan-based site" rule doesn't apply to ELs, though, thus the point of the discussion. Linking to a game guide in an EL isn't banned, per se; it's linking to one that doesn't meet the bar for WP's definition of encyclopedic for ELs, which is clearly lower than for the article body. (No one would object to linking to one that was originally published by Prima Games and is now available for free online.) As mentioned, the project MOS already distinguishes, for better or for worse, between the likes of GameFAQs and a random game's Wikia site. I haven't removed any of the latter yet and, despite what I wrote above, don't intend to do so unless there is widespread projectwide consensus (beyond the MOS) to do so. Conversely, GameFAQS has institutional protection, in the forms of an existing template and specific mention as a valid example in the MOS, so is all the more safe in my eyes unless and until all three criteria (template, MOS, and clear projectwide consensus) changes. Ylee (talk) 21:45, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
Well, yeah, that's the whole reason why I'd started another discussion, to see if we can come to consensus, which is what the MOS is based upon. "Institutional protection"? The MOS isn't set in stone and just because it has a template doesn't mean it should stay either. I remember there being a template for directly linking games to its Steam page, which also has been deleted. For years system requirements were listed also, and we've decided we don't use those anymore either. So just because the GameFAQs template has been around for almost nine years doesn't mean it should be there forever. I didn't cite WP:GAMEGUIDE, I copied WP:VG/EL, which you came up with. "external links should not be added to include material that explicitly defines the gameplay on certain aspects of the video game": GameFAQs provides just that and nothing more. --Soetermans. T / C 00:11, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
My point is that WP:VG/EL's ban on gameguide ELs should be read in context. Given that it explicitly permits GameFAQs elsewhere, clearly the MOS is distinguishing between links to it and links to other game guide-like sites. This isn't a case of GameFAQS sneaking through a loophole in the gameguide ban that everyone else missed.
I am not wedded to GameFAQs at all; I only started using the template in the past two weeks. If a consensus develops that it should be removed like other gameguide ELs/other sites with fan-written content, I have no objections whatsoever. That said, though, given the age and widespread usage of the template (plus numerous non-template links to the site in other articles' ELs), I would be surprised if such a consensus forms soon. Ylee (talk) 04:23, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Guys? Penny for your thoughts? --Soetermans. T / C 10:49, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I have no objection to using GameFAQs as an external link. I don't really have strong feelings either way, though. The website can be useful to readers and is generally well known for collecting video game-related content. It's useful. It's definitely not a must, though, and its content isn't perfect. I don't mind either way. The template is fine to stay for me. ~Mable (chat) 11:40, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia is written for a large audience, and not just gamers. The video game-related content is only gameguide material that's provided by users, not in-depth development, behind-the-scenes production notes or something like essays. The information provided isn't "knowledgeable", so that would fail WP:ELMAYBE.
For argument's sake, let's compare GameFAQs with another website. Take for instance IGN. Unlike GameFAQs, IGN is is considerd a RS and is often used for reception sections. IGN is ranked higher on the Alexa rank with 250 internationally, 102 U.S., while GameFAQs ranked 512 internationally, 186 U.S. IGN also provides walkthroughs. If we would look up Destiny on IGN, you see IGN's review, a 'latest stories' column, a gameguide wiki, a link to Amazon and videos that have something to with Destiny, a news item but also gameplay footage. Destiny on GameFAQs shows the 'home page' with general data, the FAQs (walktroughs), cheats, reviews (both user and professional are listed), images, videos, answers and the board (a forum). So in comparison with GameFAQs, IGN is a RS, is more popular and provides more information. IGN also has a EL template. But if we were to add the IGN template to every single video game article we'd be giving IGN weight as an EL (see WP:SPAMLINK). We do however allow GameFAQs still, even though other websites provide more information.
So far I haven't heard (or read, if you will) a good argument that would say we should keep it. Just because it's been here for a while is not a reason to keep it, that is WP:LONGTIME. --Soetermans. T / C 14:39, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
I can't see any reason to keep it. I can't see why we allow this external link carte blanche to be added to the bottom of an article regardless of quality, yet links to in depth articles on Edge or Eurogamer for example have to pass the external link tests. Its a left-over from a by-gone era of WP:VG, it should have gone at the same time as the links to MobiGame. - X201 (talk) 15:02, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
I've just nominated the template for deletion. Am I free to change the WP:VG/MOS myself? --Soetermans. T / C 10:37, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

1UP.com review removal in Metroid II[edit]

I would advise anyone to take a look at the edits from 75.142.13.251 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) (Jan 13 and Jan 24); he removed the review of 1UP.com from the article of Metroid II: Return of Samus without giving a good reason. The review of the game was already referenced, so why did he removed it? -- Hounder4 15:19, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

I remember seeing another IP user a couple of years ago that removed 1UP from the reception, claiming it wasn't relevant anymore because 1UP ceased to exist. That might be the reason why. --Soetermans. T / C 16:05, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
I don't think that is the reason here. The claim was that it was a wall of text about a single rewiew that was written 15 years after. I believe though that would at most be a case for trimming than complete removal.--174.91.184.181 (talk) 23:11, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
Citing a wall of text to a single review is probably unnecessary, but the review would still be usable for less than that. As Maplestrip suggests, that 's a reason to talk-page your issues with it, not remove the ref. (And as a note, having had to find 1up sourcing, wayback does have most of that there, so there's no issue with 1 up deadlink). --MASEM (t) 23:46, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
Generally, just put it back and discuss it in the article's talk page. They haven't given any rationale for removing it yet. If they remove it again without responding in any way, then it becomes an issue. ~Mable (chat) 23:04, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Hatred and Slipknot[edit]

I'd appreciate some honest feedback on the use of an illustration in the Hatred article at Talk:Hatred_(video_game)#Slipknot_comparison czar  18:04, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Carmen Sandiego's Great Chase Through Time[edit]

This article is a pet project of mine (completely different from the iOS games I created); I have been working on it on/off for a number of years and would really like to see it hit GA. I seek the advice and assistance from this Wikiproject, which is filled with extremely formidable Wikipedia editors in this topic area. Though I am very familiar with this game, I am not used to creating GAs, so I figured I would post here to move things along.

I am fairly sure the sources in the article currently are the best it's ever going to get. Lord knows I've tried various means to access content, but it is tricky with a game from 1997. I think fancruft that has accumulated in my absence needs to be removed, and certain sections need to be copyedited.--Coin945 (talk) 02:58, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

It's not bad. The layout is a little unusual - "History"/development sections usually come right before Reception, and the Synopsis and possibly Reception could be greatly condensed - but it's definitely within shooting distance of GA. Nice job; I actually can't name an educational game we have at GA, unless the half-ironic Frog Fractions counts. Oh, and you'll want to make sure everything in History is cited - good work with the other sources, though; trust me, I'm well aware of how difficult certain gaming-related topics can be to find RSes for. Feel free to ask me or the project with any pointed questions you have, since while we have a peer review system, it doesn't generate a whole lot of activity. You can also nominate it for GAN and I'll review it, if you're so inclined. Tezero (talk) 04:09, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
I agree with Tezero - the article currently looks pretty decent. I'm worried that most of the synopsis section should be removed, though, as it completely focuses on in-game content and relies on primary sources. What left could then probably be integrated into the plot-section. That would be a pretty big change, though. In general, the rule is to keep the summary of content within the media in question as concise as possible, and I'm not sure if a reader comes to Wikipedia to read about each case (level) within a specific game - that would be fanwiki territory. ~Mable (chat) 10:28, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
The general guideline on this project is that 700 to maybe 1,000 for particularly in-depth games is a good upper limit of words in a VG plot section. Tezero (talk) 15:36, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
I always thought the case by case synopsis was wayyy to long and detailed so considered paring away everything except the facts regarding the historical accuracy of the information, and creating a "Historical accuracy" section - due to that sort of thing being notable in an edutainment game. I actually peer reviewed it about 2 years ago but no one replied, although it did receive a brutal copyedit from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Baffle_gab1978 so major props to them. I remember having a personal communication with one of the artists who gave me some fascinating design info... But obviously it was deleted from the article as it was unverifiable. A shame really...--Coin945 (talk) 16:25, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Request for input[edit]

A proposal to merge The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker and its HD remaster has been made. I have voiced my support on the main article's talk page. Input on the issue is requested and required. --ProtoDrake (talk) 18:48, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Topical directory of notable Wikipedians[edit]

Hello, members of Wikiproject Video games! I'm AmericanLemming, and I'm trying to put together a list of notable/highly active Wikipedians by topic. As you're probably well aware, many or perhaps most of the 446 editors listed as "active" at Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Members#Active either haven't edited in years, never did that much work on video game articles anyway, or are highly active but in areas other than video games.

The problem with all this is that it's difficult for an editor outside the Wikiproject to find active editors to collaborate with and/or ask questions of. Also, it's difficult to know who the most important video game editors are. From DYK, FA, GA, and GAN I've put together the following list of highly active and/or important video game editors:

  • Active: czar, Freikorp, GamerPro64, Igordebraga, Jaguar, JDC808, Khanassassin, Masem, PresN, ProtoDrake, Red Phoenix, Sjones23, Tezero
  • Inactive: Judgesurreal777

I guess the questions I have for you are as follows:

  • 1. Am I missing any important video game editors (5+ FAs and/or 10+ GAs and/or 25+ DYKs, for example), whether they're active or not?
  • 2. Are any of the editors I have listed as active actually inactive (haven't edited so far this year, for example)?
  • 3. Is there a better way to categorize video game editors? Independent games versus mainstream, console versus PC, strategy versus first-person shooter, older versus more recent, etc.?

I hope none of you feel offended if you aren't included in the above list, and I very much appreciate any help you can offer me. Thanks! AmericanLemming (talk) 02:56, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Although I certainly can't speak for everyone since I am included, if I weren't I don't think I'd be offended, since you've clearly stipulated the criteria, so I wouldn't worry about it. One inactive user who seems to have been involved in a curiously high number of GAs and FAs (perhaps his contributions are overstated) is Gary King; you could look into him. There's also a list of Wikipedians by FAs out there, and I wouldn't be surprised if a few other VG editors appeared. Good luck! Tezero (talk) 03:21, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
Oh, and you'll want JimmyBlackwing, too. Tezero (talk) 03:25, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
I'm very active here at WPVG, but I don't bother with all the GA/FA process stuff. But I do meet your "creating over 75 articles" requirement - I've created 87 now. So...I guess it depends on what criteria you find more important? Sergecross73 msg me 04:20, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
You're - and Soetermans and Salvidrim and others - only one of the most important Gnomes that we have. You don't count ;-) - X201 (talk) 09:07, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
Ah, that reminds me, that's the term Salvidrim uses to describe his edits. He's an active long-term WP:VG contributor and Admin. Smuckola and ThomasO1989 are long-term WPVG editors as well. (Though I haven't seen Thomas around all that much as of lately...) Sergecross73 msg me 13:47, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
This reminds me that I have to login on Salvidrim to setup email notifications because people ping that username (instead of Salvidrim!) all the time. But yeah, I'm definitely gnomish and not a "content contributor" by any stretch of the imagination, even though I've been hovering around WP:VG ever since I started. To the list, (and especially if we go with how long they've contributed to WP:VG instead of judging the quality of the best articles) I would add X201, Samwalton9, Satellizer, Thibbs, JDC808, Hahnchen, and both Blake and Axem Titanium as not very active for now. They're all on the list of those I would consider our most invaluable and helpful collaborators; Sam in particular has produced really really high-end content, and Thibbs is really the go-to person for reliable sources. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  22:30, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
I'm still active, just not as active as I once was. I've actually been working on an FAC the past couple of weeks. Like GamerPro, I was pleasantly surprised too :) --JDC808 23:09, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
I'm still around-- just been really preoccupied by real life recently, so most of my contributions as of late are quick vandalism reverts. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 16:10, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
Yeah I have to admit I am pleasantly surprised to be considered "noteworthy" on this site. Guess I'm not fully aware on my impact on the site I guess. GamerPro64 04:28, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
Like Sergecross, I too am really only active at c-class articles and below. Plus I'm rather new here and not "highly active"... Just throwing it out there. ~Mable (chat) 07:40, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
The bulk of my edits concern video game-related articles. It's usually the small stuff, like writing out terms before using the abbreviations (like "downloadable content, and then DLC") or not using unnecessary capital letters for genres or modes (Graphic adventure -> graphic adventure), and removing gameguide material (like a list of playable characters). Don't know if that merits any inclusion, but I'd be happy to help though! --Soetermans. T / C 10:48, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Aw I'm flattered Jaguar 18:07, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

  • Just to noted that I think I'm going to end up being WP-notable for other reasons too, beyond just the quality VG articles too, but I agree with the additional names that Salvidrim adds. --MASEM (t) 22:38, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
@Masem:Its OK. We already know what it is. You've picked up that horrible habit of using stars instead of colons to start talk page comments ;-) Everything will be OK. Keep your chin up chap. - X201 (talk) 07:04, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Updated list (includes above feedback)[edit]

Thanks to everyone who commented above, especially those who suggested names of editors who work behind the scenes with small edits; I wouldn't have realized who they were without the above feedback. There isn't as much glory in reverting vandalism or writing out acronyms as there is in amassing a large collection of FA stars, but it's vital work nonetheless. Since I've chosen to keep the link to the userpages of those editors listed here, it should (?) notify them. That way they can inform me if I've miscategorized them. Again, thank you all very much for your assistance. In a couple of months I'll see if they'll let me run this in the Signpost, once it's (reasonably) complete. AmericanLemming (talk) 08:12, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Please only comment here if you feel that you or someone else has been placed in the wrong category. This is just a pet project of mine; it's neither authoritative nor comprehensive. I don't think It's especially important for every single editor on this list to know that they're included, since it isn't official or anything. I'm just trying to make it easier to to find active video game editors. AmericanLemming (talk) 09:59, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

@AmericanLemming:re"Since I've chosen to keep the link to the userpages of those editors listed here, it should (?) notify them. " Apparently the notification system has been a bit dodgy of late, with people not receiving notifications that they should have. If its important that they know about this I'd suggest contacting them on their talk page to be safe. - X201 (talk) 09:00, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, that would be a good idea, I didn't get notified I was mentioned here (or somewhere else earlier today), though I noticed both because I watch the pages. Freikorp (talk) 09:10, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
Same here... Should we now all comment here so that Lemming does not have to contact us personally, or...? ~Mable (chat) 09:13, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
I don't need everyone to comment here; if you're happy with your categorization there's no need to explicitly state that. Keeping this discussion relatively short will save both your time and mine. :) AmericanLemming (talk) 09:59, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
Though I've been a bit more Gnomey in regards to articles as of late (since becoming an admin really), I think I fit more into the second category. Cheers, Sam Walton (talk) 11:50, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
I sort of feel like we shouldn't be listed by these kind of categories. I've done some of everything, but I guess I could agree most of my edits are gnomey. Blake (Talk·Edits) 00:09, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
I think the idea's that we're placed in the highest categories we fit in, under the supposition that the highest categories signify the most obvious contributions and "major-ness" of a user. My gnoming and (grumble) article-creating activities aren't nearly at the level of my GAs/FAs, for example, but czar by some definitions is one of the greatest gnomes we've got, yet his GAs and FAs place him in the top category. What I'm more surprised about is that, unlike with the listings for many non-video-game fields, we're not given special areas of interest. Tezero (talk) 01:25, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Request to add Zzap!64 to Template Video game reviews[edit]

I have always wondered why Zzap!64 is missing when it's lesser brethren CRASH and Amtix! are not :) It would be of great benefit for the retro documentation effort to add this influential (at the time) British rag to the mix. These are the pages that link to it, in case it's useful for the scope. If so, is further justification or information required ? SHOlafsson (talk) 15:34, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Being a published print magazine, it's likely considered reliable and usable, so that probably shouldn't a problem. I don't know the specific criteria for the the template though. Sergecross73 msg me 15:53, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
Did we put it in the WP:VG/S list? If it's reliable under that list, then its safe to include in the template. Zero Serenity (talk - contributions) 17:29, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
No it's not there, of the triad (Zzap!64, Crash and Amtix!) only Crash is there (although I see no reason Zzap should not have the same recognition), both Amtix! and Crash are in the template though. At least Zzap!64 is mentioned in the checklist (although without a tick mark), strangely Amtix is not even mentioned there. SHOlafsson (talk) 10:54, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Joystiq possibly shutting down[edit]

Joystiq may be closing down, so we might need to get archiving citations to them. No official word yet but worth keeping an eye on. Sam Walton (talk) 13:16, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I saw that too. Man, its going to get harder to search for sources on more obscure games soon, with all these reliable sources shutting down... Sergecross73 msg me 14:15, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
I had not seen it. Its indeed too bad if they would close down. You are right Serge, a lot of gaming sites are shutting down left and right, which is very saddening. NathanWubs (talk) 15:03, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Although I have no source to cite as yet (for some reason none of them want to be the first to break the news), backchannels inform me that there has been a collapse of revenues across the board for videogame related sites. Most likely delayed and indirect fallout of the controversy that Must Not be Named, advertisers have apparently become leery of having any exposure and are avoiding the entire sector. So expect that there will be a lot more of these, and they may not all be announced ahead of time, you may want to check archiving of any article that is critical for its page and make a note for future reference.150.167.144.14 (talk) 03:16, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
While possible, most other sites are reporting better-than-ever numbers. More than likely, this is just AOL not aware of what it has in the site. --MASEM (t) 04:29, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
Spot check of a few articles shows that Wayback has them archived. --MASEM (t) 17:16, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Do you think we could request a bot to be made specifically for archiving Joystiq citations? Bananasoldier (talk) 18:37, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Challenge to bot authors: Scraping a massive directory of reviews of Atari 8-bit software[edit]

The Addison-Wesley Book of Atari Software 1984 is at the Internet Archive. Its 400 pages review Atari 8-bit software, including almost 200 pages for games. The reviews are in great detail (read the one for Archon: The Light and the Dark, for example) and have letter grades. Since the book is also available in plaintext, I hope an intrepid editor will accept the challenge of write a bot to scrape the grades and insert them into Wikipedia articles (and perhaps, even, creating stub articles when none exists). Ylee (talk) 18:23, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't really do bots, but I can write a script maybe to make a wiki page with "game name-company-score-review text", one game per section, so that someone could go through that later (manually or botted) to stick them in articles. Would that be useful? --PresN 18:43, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
For example, like User:PresN/AtariReviews. --PresN 19:01, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Good spot with the data. But we can't just populate the reviews template with this as its against the guidelines for the template. - X201 (talk) 07:15, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
The prose is much more of interest than the grades. ~Mable (chat) 08:10, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Three questions[edit]

Hi everyone, I would like to ask 3 questions.

  • I would also like to know whether we should move Red Storm Entertainment to Ubisoft Red Storm, or move Ubisoft Massive back to Massive Entertainment. Their name (from what I can see from their logo) is "Red Storm Entertainment - A Ubisoft Studio" and "Massive Entertainment - A Ubisoft Studio". I believe that their pages' name should be uniform, like "Ubisoft -" or "- Entertainment" but I am not sure which one to move.
  • Should information about mods be included in video games articles?

- AdrianGamer (talk) 11:55, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

The last one is easy: information on mods should be included if deemed notable - when covered by reliable sources. For example, the word "mods" is used a few times in the article on Skyrim, because the game's mod support is a very notable aspect of the game, and it covered by various sources.
About the people in company categories: I definitely think they should. Category:Nintendo, for example, has tons of people in its subcategory. It seems to me that anything that falls under the company should be within the category. It also actually makes more sense to put people in a company's category than to put its products (games) in it, at least to me. That being said, it might depend on the category's inclusion guidelines. It sucks how most categories don't have those... ~Mable (chat) 13:02, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
Like Maplestrip said, are they notable? For instance, Fallout 3 doesn't mention them, even though PC Gamer has a 10 essential list. Skyrim mentions some in prose, Fallout: New Vegas#J.E. Sawyer's mod has its own subsection, others have become notable enough to have their own article (DayZ (mod) and The Dark Mod come to mind). --Soetermans. T / C 14:38, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
  1. (edit conflict) I personally don't see why not, but I do know there are some category criteria I don't always fully understand, so if someone has a good reason not to, then defer to their opinion.
  2. Usually article titles are decided by their most commonly used name. I would think that would take precedent over uniformity. A way to try to gauge this could be doing a Google Search, and seeing which one tends to get more hits. It's not a hard rule, but if "Red Storm Entertainment" get 22,000 hits and "Ubisoft Red Storm" get 7.5 million hits, you can get a vibe for what one is used more frequently.
  3. As Maple says above, this is generally handled by whether or not a mod gets third party coverage from a reliable source. If IGN does a story on it, it could be considered worth mentioning. If its something with no coverage and 10 all-time downloads from the corners of the internet, then probably not. Sergecross73 msg me 14:41, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
I understand now. Thanks for answering. AdrianGamer (talk) 15:04, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
  • For the category question, companies with several notable people normally have a Category:Company people subcat (such as Category:Ubisoft people). ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  15:38, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
  • It's not as though a "Bethesda people" category couldn't be created. Tezero (talk) 15:45, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Most 1up.com links have apparently stopped working.[edit]

We probably should go about archiving what we can of them. One thing that may be worth noting is that 1up.com often syndicated stories from their various magazines, so if a page isn't properly archived it still may be possible to find the article in an aforementioned magazine. --Deathawk (talk) 17:38, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Edge website closing[edit]

As previously discussed, Future have intended to close and consolidate their gaming websites for a while now, and now it's been confirmed: Edge (the website, at least) is going the way of C&VG and merging into GamesRadar. (Sorry, GamesRadar+.)

The site says: "Articles from the Edge archive will be available alongside new interviews, opinion and features and the best content from the website will be migrated over to our new GR+ homepage." In terms of how many citation links will stay working, that could mean anything! --Nick RTalk 21:48, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

This is terrible news, but at least this time we're one step ahead of the game and can archive everything. I was actually thinking of a bot that would be capable of archiving all dead VG links for us, if that's possible. Jaguar 21:51, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
Spot check shows Edge is properly archived at Wayback Machine. This is not as bad as it could be (we dont need to rush off webcite-ing things), but we really should see about getting a bot to help up archive our links. --MASEM (t) 21:53, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
I proposed User:JaguarBot to do a very similar thing two years ago, I'll look into it to see if it's possible to automatically archive links. Jaguar 21:55, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
Good lord there are so many websites being shut down lately. Who knows who's next. GamerPro64 22:13, 29 January 2015 (UTC)