Talk:Sharon A. Hill

Skeptic

Ms Hill stated in July 2018 that she does not want to be called a Skeptic. I will be using internet sources to add that info to this page. I should be done by 9 Feb 19. SEKluth (talk) 18:05, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Nice edit! Since the podcast has ended, How about noting that. One possible source is is this one. RobP (talk) 23:10, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

IP revert

An IP has recently reverted a major edit I have made. I ask them to please explain why here. Santacruz ⁂ Please tag me! 16:47, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

I will soon add reasons for my content removals, but in the meanwhile encourage editors to look at the BLPs of Ira Glass and Roman Mars for appropriate inclusion of podcast quotes and descriptions. Also refer to MOS:Quote, point 5 of WP:BLPSELFPUB, and point 5 of WP:PRIMARY. Santacruz ⁂ Please tag me! 06:19, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

• Reasons for removal/addition of content, per top-to-bottom of article:

See diff. I have followed the structure of my removals one-by-one, and as it was all done in a single diff realize it might be confusing at some points to follow my rationale below. Thus, asking questions is very welcome.

• • Added consultant for Center for Inquiry to lead as it seems notable within her career (note: not notable per say, but in the context of her career).
  • "Media Guide to Skepticism" is not a notable event. The site has no backlinks, and no RS mention it either on a quick Google of the document name nor the name used in the article.
  • I moved the paragraph on her comments about the skeptics label as an amendment to the first paragraph in the section, and shortened it significantly to a single sentence. The quotes were unnecessary to explain her position, and so removed them per MOS:QUOTE. "This attitude was foreshadowed" is also an unnecessary addition, as one could indicate this by saying Neither her websites nor her podcast use the word 'skeptic', due to certain issues she finds with the label. as I did in my edit, and perhaps changing the wording there to reflect more long-standing criticisms of the term if felt needed.
  • Being a speaker at Balticon does not seem like a notable event seeing how little coverage it has received. Note that the third result when searching balticon is a polish container company.
  • On her master's thesis (note per WP:SCHOLARSHIP Master's theses are only considered reliable if they have significant scholarly influence and by the same train of thought one should really only include detailed descriptions of it in a BLP if influential) but I digress as I did not remove mention to it in the article):
    • Having at least 3 paragraphs about her thesis is completely unreasonable when it is a) a master's with b) not much influence. John von Neumann's master isn't mentioned in his BLP. Einstein's BLP dedicates a single sentence to his PhD. If these were much more influential scientists, and both are GAs, I think it would be wrong to not follow their article's example (or at least have very strong reasoning as to why one would make an exception here).
    • Quoting the abstract so heavily is wrong per MOS:QUOTE and by the fact that it is giving too much detail, surely if the article itself summarizes the results of the master's thesis detailing the abstract is redundant.
    • I summarized this paragraph into the one I kept in my version, but removed many quotes per MOS:QUOTE.
    • Same for this paragraph as the one above.
  • This is a non-notable opinion piece written by Hill. I don't see the merit of including it in her BLP, even if there might be an argument to include it in criticisms of Paranormal State (I don't think so but believe the possibility does exist). Wikipedia is not a soapbox.
  • Skeptical Inquirer covering the launch of Doubtful News is WP:COISOURCE, as she is a consultant to the parent company of Skeptical Inquirer and a contributor to the magazine.
  • The paragraph about the podcast is a mess.
    • No, we do not need to mention that show notes are made available as that is standard practice (Scriptnotes, my favorite podcast, only mentions show notes when it is an actual part of the podcast content in special episodes. John August and Craig Mazin's articles don't mention show notes when talking about Scriptnotes either).
    • No, we do not need to mention it is available on iTunes as that is standard practice.
    • No, we do not need to mention the release schedule as that is not important to the podcast's content nor notability (for example, this would make sense for a podcast where one episode is released a year or a daily news show).
    • No, we do not need to mention who composed the music for the podcast in the podcast's host's BLP as that is not relevant in this case (would be if, for example, the composer was her wife, had a significant connection to the host, or was in-and-of-themselves notable).
  • The next few paragraphs about her opinion on crossing the bridge between skeptics and "believers" just has too many quotes (see MOS:QUOTE). Thus, as the previous paragraph did a good enough job of summarizing her opinion on the subject (WP:SUMMARY) I removed the quotes and respective accompanying text. If there is an article about the topic of interaction between these two groups, however, her opinions on the subject would merit more detailed description there (if she is considered by consensus to be an expert on the subject).
  • Removed the header on consumer protection as an unnecessary division of content — a three-line paragraph does not need to be split-off.
  • The Skeptical Inquirer review of her book should not be included per WP:COISOURCE as she is a contributor to the magazine. The next paragraph is basically a block quote, and thereby should be paraphrased. However, seeing how the other review of her book fails WP:COISOURCE and should be removed, having the only mention of her book be by herself is WP:POV.
  • Being named a consultant is not an honor, its a job. I moved it to the lead as it seems a career highlight for her. Additionally, I haven't found evidence the consultancy itself is notable as an award.

These are the reasons for each edit I made to the article. Rp2006 I'd appreciate a response to each of them. Santacruz ⁂ Please tag me! 09:09, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Note, I am considering starting an RfC on the issue if there is significant disagreement between us. Santacruz ⁂ Please tag me! 09:17, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

I realized a 3O is much more appropriate here. Seeing how you've made edits to wiki and haven't replied here I'll move along with that, Rp2006. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 08:55, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Note: I have listed this thread in the 3O noticeboard Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 09:02, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

About the Third Opinion request: The request made at Third Opinion has been removed (i.e. declined). Like all other moderated content dispute resolution venues at Wikipedia, Third Opinion requires thorough talk page discussion before seeking assistance. If an editor will not discuss, consider the recommendations which are made here. — TransporterMan (TALK) 22:52, 1 December 2021 (UTC) This is an informational posting only and I am not watching this page; contact me on my user talk page if you wish to communicate with me about this.

Much appreciated, TransporterMan :D Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 19:07, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Notice of edit

@Rp2006: I've asked and waited that you please discuss this matter. You have ignored my request for a week while doing other edits on the wiki. I'm going to go ahead and make the change I've described above. If you revert without responding here, then I'm going to have to file a complaint against you at ANI for disruptive editing by reverting without discussing.— Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 19:11, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

IP harassment

no consensus for your controversial edits. 82.132.230.228 (talk) 23:42, 2 December 2021 (UTC) no attempt by anyone to respond to my comments above and therefore create such a consensus, either Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 23:54, 2 December 2021 (UTC) I emailed your university about your Wikipedia vandalism and they will talk to you. You need to come off Wikipedia, your vandalism of skeptic articles has been noted. 82.132.230.228 (talk) 00:53, 3 December 2021 (UTC) I hope you understand that what you've done is a personal attack. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 07:52, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

@A. C. Santacruz: Threatening to file a complaint against me for not responding on your schedule? If that is not an attack on me I don't know what is. Surely more of an attack than someone else saying you went "ape shit" on an article. And FYI, seeing that as equivalent to "calling you an ape" as you have repeatedly claimed means either you don't have a good enough command of English to be editing Wikipedia, or you choose to take everything out of context to play the victim. I can't say which. Regarding the article edits, I do not have the time now to go through all of you detailed edits, but your repeated false assertions that items need to be WP:notable on their own in order to be mentioned in an article is just wrong headed. Notability is about what topic or person deserves a WP article, not pertinent to every fact cited in that article. Your COI claims regarding what should and should not be allowed in an article are also without merit. On the basis of your misunderstanding of these two principles which are heavily forming the basis of your edits, I believe a full reversion is in order. If any of the other 30 watchers of this page agree with your, they should come to your defense. Else, my suggestion is to... Well, neverminded. Whatever I say you will take as an attack and lodge a complaint. Rp2006 (talk) 22:16, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

My actions in this discussion have all been guided by the advice of more experience editors and my understanding of the guidelines, Rp2006. Note my "threat" is basically a copy-paste from the link TransporterMan supplied above. It is my opinion that in your message above you have not only rejected the opportunity to discuss my edit you reverted in any meaningful fashion and made references to unrelated discussions out of context, but also insulted my character. I reply here only to make note of that. Whatever grudge you may have against me is not one I share against you, and hope that in some future we will be able to work constructively together on the Wikipedia. For now it seems like that is not happening soon, sadly. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 22:46, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Especially when you seem to be canvassing to get more editors to come here and prevent me from editing rather than using the proper channels for or attempting to meaningfully engage in dispute resolution/consensus-building. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 22:58, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Note there was no threat made to you, Rp2006. The exact wording I used was If you revert without responding here, then I'm going to have to file a complaint against you, which is the correct thing to do according to WP:DISRUPT. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 23:29, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

@A. C. Santacruz: I wish I had the time you seem to have to devote to complaining about others treating you what is perceived as unfairly on Wikipedia. Rp2006 (talk) 01:41, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Rp2006 I wish you had the time to respond to the issues with the article I outlined above before you or others revert my edits. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 06:09, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

As I wrote at Wikipedia_talk:Administrators'_noticeboard#Request:_Transfer_Section_Below_to_ANI_under_header_"Disruptive_Reverts_and_Personal_Attacks", there seems to be some kind of poorly justified targeting of the Center for Skeptical Inquiry going on here. That a person or publication is associated with the Center is not a good reason to delete material. All the 'not notable' stuff above doesn't apply, since notability is a guideline for keeping whole articles, not for mentioning things within articles. - MrOllie (talk) 14:44, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Not all my edit was about the notability of its content, MrOllie. A large majority of the removed text is due to the overuse of quotes. How do you think the use of quotes within the article could be improved, as quotes currently stand for ~30% of the readable text in the article (per my count). Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 15:27, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm also interested in your opinion on including a review from a publication she works for, per WP:COISOURCE. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 15:29, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

You need to show there's actually a conflict of interest. By the logic displayed here, we couldn't use the NY times to source anything about someone who has contributed an Op-ed. - MrOllie (talk) 15:33, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I disagree with where you're taking my logic, MrOllie. I just don't think we should mention a book written by a consultant for the New York Times company where the only review of it is in the NY times. The COI is that the company has a financial and brand-image interest in promoting the publications of those that work for it. Ms. Hill is not someone who contributed just a single op-ed to the magazine, she is a consultant for its parent company. Those two relationships are not the same. It is closer to FOX News reviewing Tucker Carlson's new book. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 16:00, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

@A. C. Santacruz: I agree with Roxy and MrOllie. In my opinion, you totally misconstrue COI (and other) WP rules. It is like you read the rules and then see what you want to see. This is why I refuse wasting my limited time looking over your multitude of edits in detail. In this case, being a consultant for CSI is NOT even a paid position. It is more of an honor bestowed, with the org revealing that they trust your opinion on an area of expertise and will call on you to give it to them as needed. Also, Hill had a falling out with the org and is no longer listed as a consultant,. although nothing about this change has been published so cannot be included in the article. Bottom line: I suggest you stop obsessing over this article, and do something more constructive with the time you spend on WP. Rp2006 (talk) 17:32, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Two points. Firstly, whether she gets paid or not does not affect the conflict of interest: it is on the publisher not on her that I find the COI here. The fact you consider it an honor or not should not matter: it is still a professional relationship between the two. Secondly, how do you know she had a falling out with the org, if this was not published, Rp2006? Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 18:56, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

As I said, I disagree with your take on COI. And it’s not that *I* consider it an honor. It is. Honors is even the section name it is under. And, as to how I know about her disassociation… Did you not read the article? “In 2018, Hill publicly eschewed the "skeptic" label due to perceived negative connotations of the term and issues she has with organized skepticism.” In the US, organized skepticism *is* CSI. Read the cited articles. Rp2006 (talk) 19:54, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I understand how we can disagree on COI matters related to CSI, Rp2006. In regards to the falling out, I'd appreciate it if you could provide links to her comments resulting in her being fired (or her "honor" removed). The book was published in December 2017, an article by her in SI in January 2018, the review of the book in March/April 2018, and her blog post in July 2018, so my understanding of the timeline of her fall-out wouldn't match your statement unless the falling out happened before her blog post. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 20:15, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

This looks like WP:OUTING. Do we need to take a trip to ANI, or would you please edit that out and find an admin to delete it from the history? - MrOllie (talk) 20:25, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I apologize MrOllie, I thought this wouldn't be outing as the article he wrote in skeptical inquirer makes specific references to the diff I include above and the link is cited within this WP article (which Rp2006 has edited since and so I assumed they knew that information has been made public on WP). If it truly is outing I suggest that the citation be removed from the article as well to avoid this situation. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 20:46, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Notice the bold 'on Wikipedia' in the linked policy. MrOllie (talk) 20:48, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I have initiated an ANI. Rp2006 (talk) 20:51, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

The link to the information is cited in a WP article, so I assumed that counted as "on WP". As I said above, if that link and the information contained therein would be considered outing, I suggest that citation be removed from the page (and possibly remove page histories in between, although I have no idea how that would be done or if that would be the proper way to go about it). Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 20:56, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Admin removal of possible outing history

I unintentionally might have outed another user in these two edits. I'd appreciate prompt removal of those edits and these subsequent ones that also refer to that information. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 20:53, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

First you initiated a project to out editors who you felt were part of an off-Wiki editing team, even trying to get like minded editors to help, and now this. For some reason I am laughing at your "unintentional" claim. I am done with you. Rp2006 (talk) Rp2006 (talk) 21:08, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

In the section above you told me to read the articles relevant to her comments on organized skepticism. The information is in one of those articles. Either you were aware that that information is in one of the articles, which means it wouldn't be outing as you are on-wiki asking editors to read off-wiki information about you (what I assumed). Or you were not aware that the information is in one of the articles and are opposed to that information being accessible to on-wiki editors, in which case it should be removed from the article. Again, I apologize if what I did is considered outing, it's just I've never been in a situation where an editor is ok with a link to their private information being on wiki but not ok with people referring to information within that link. You can understand how that is a tricky situation to navigate if not aware of it beforehand. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 21:13, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

As far as I know I'm doing the proper thing in fixing my mistake. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 21:14, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Content suppressed. Thank you for recognising your mistake and correcting it. Primefac (talk) 21:24, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Much appreciated, Primefac. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 21:25, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I note that the mistake was only corrected after there was a notification of the lousy behaviour at ANI, and much very justified complaining by the outed party. Very bad form ACS. -Roxy the dog. wooF 21:28, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

What the fuck? I made attempts to fix my mistake once I read MrOllie's clarification of how it might be outing. I'd appreciate you not coming to a finished discussion where I fully admitted my mistake and made the proper steps to resolve it just to comment on my "form", Roxy the dog. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 21:34, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Are you really sure you want to escalate right now? MrOllie (talk) 21:45, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Sorry. Roxy's response incited me. My apologies. I won't comment on the topic here any further, and will comment on the ANI thread through other editors when I request them to mention my opinion as I am temporarily banned from ANI. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 22:00, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I contacted the closing admin with this comment: I just saw that you closed my Outing ANI [1] after the offending editor deleted their problematic text, and even thanked them from doing so. I must note that it took significant push-back from another editor (and me opening an ANI) before they made the revert. Before that, they wrote several times to justify what they did. Additionally, this is part of a pattern of behavior on their part, including harassments of editors, as I noted on the article's Talk page: "First you initiated a project to out editors who you felt were part of an off-Wiki editing team, even trying to get like minded editors to help, and now this. For some reason I am laughing at your "unintentional" claim. I am done with you." The issue there was an ANI brought against me and others by this editor because they were not getting their way editing a page - which led to a ridiculously long discussion wasting everyone's time. I believe the editor was temporarily blocked. (check this?) There was talk about initiating a topic ban as well. (?) So I think - this being on the same topic that they will not let go of (Skeptical articles and editors) perhaps that issue needs a reevaluation. Rp2006 (talk) 21:48, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Birthdate & birthplace

If anybody can track down her birthdate & birthplace. That would be cool. GoodDay (talk) 23:46, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Birthdate needs to be widely covered in reliable sources, or published by the article subject in such a way that makes it clear they don't mind if it's public. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:53, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Radish (I have no idea how to abbreviate your name, terribly sorry for that). Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 00:28, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm not terribly bothered as to abbreviation, I think the most common is SFR, though. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:30, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Sounds Fantastic, Really :D. I'll use that in the future, then. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 00:33, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

RFC on mentions of her master's thesis

Should the article include mention of her master's thesis? Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 14:01, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

A related discussion to this can be found in this WikiProject Biography thread

Pinging @Mvbaron, Joe Roe, Fieari, Rp2006, MrOllie, Roxy the dog, GoodDay, and ScottishFinnishRadish: due to having taken part either in the Wikiproject thread or in discussions within this talk page. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 16:01, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Notified WikiProjects: Biography, Skepticism, Women scientists

Survey

• No, as RfC creator. I believe this is in violation of various PAGs, mentioned in the thread I have linked above. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 14:12, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
• No. - per Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Scholarship: Masters dissertations and theses are considered reliable only if they can be shown to have had significant scholarly influence. This thesis has no secondary sourcing or tertiary sourcing which describes it as notable, significant, or impactful. Ergo, we should not discuss it in any considerable depth. We can mention that it exists, but that's probably about it. If anyone were to find good sourcing which supports a claim of impact, I would be willing to change my mind on this. But I could not find any. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 15:23, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
• Yes (with some trimming of text). The thesis is in the area of study for which she is known, and part of the narrative throughline linking childhood and profession. This is clearly due a mention in a biography. The amount of text about the thesis is excessive, though, and should be reduced by half. WP:RS, WP:SCHOLARSHIP, and so on are not applicable, because this is not about using the thesis as a source for claims. Sennalen (talk) 15:30, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

We do not post content from unreliable sources on Wikipedia, except for extremely basic and uncontroversial, uncontested claims. Do you have reliable sources which describe the thesis? — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 15:33, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

The usage here is allowable per WP:SPS both as a expert in the field of science communication and as WP:ABOUTSELF. Sennalen (talk) 20:37, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

• Depends. Are you trying to talk about her work broadly and make a statement like she completed her thesis on X? Or are you trying to discuss the content of the thesis? In the first case, I do not see an issue with including it, in the second case WP:NPOV come into play and I do not think it is appropriate. Tepkunset (talk) 15:52, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
• Yes to the phrasing of the RFC. I believe the thesis bears mentioning, and [2] is good enough for me to include that it lead to her book. More than that, no. Cheers, all. Dumuzid (talk) 15:58, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) Yes - (Summoned by bot) but basically per Shibbolethink. That is, the question asks whether the article should include mention of the thesis. So yes, I think a mention of what the thesis was makes sense for a researcher, but anything more than a mention needs some sources which talk about it. So reduce it to a sentence (or two, max) unless other sourcing can be found. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 16:02, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
• Yes per every inclusionist argument for adding more reliable and informative content to BLPs. Digital = more. Dkriegls (talk to me!) 18:47, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
• Yes to that general question the RFC asks: Mention it in a sentence but not more. Trim the current text and remove text sourced to the thesis. per Shibbolethink and Dumuzid. --Mvbaron (talk) 18:59, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

• No to what I think the RfC question actually is, which is "should the thesis be more than a brief mention". It is completely WP:UNDUE to devote anything more to a topic that has not been covered at all in independent secondary sources. We wouldn't use ABOUTSELF to justify describing someone's blog post in this depth; why is an unremarkable thesis any different? JoelleJay (talk) 23:46, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
• Yes and no. Yes to a brief mention (such as a listing of its title), as this is an appropriate thing to include in a biography of someone working in a field related to the subject of the thesis. However, no to any more detailed description of the thesis unless it can be sourced to an independent reliable source. BLPSPS only allows factual claims, like titles of works, not opinion-based material, like a description of what the work is really about. Additionally, unless there is some independent source-based reason to think that the thesis had wider significance than merely completing the requirements for a degree, a single line about it should suffice; the whole paragraph we have now is far out of balance to its significance. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:16, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
• Yes The article could, and I expect should, include mention of her master's thesis. It is an aspect of her life that seems to me sufficiently significant to be WP:DUE for mention. I am not expressing any view on how much mention there might be, nor on whether the contents of the thesis are reliable because we have not been asked about such matters. I would be amazed if simple mention violated any WP:Policies and Guidelines but a clear statement of alleged violations would be required. Thincat (talk) 10:03, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

  I probably should have worded the RfC as "extended mention" or something along those lines, but I feel changing it now would be disingenuous. In any case, the detailed responses from everyone fill in the gaps in my wording well and will provide a good consensus on this issue. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 11:36, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Don't worry about it. In recent years there's never (hardly ever?) been a well-worded RFC. Thincat (talk) 11:46, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

How the WP community manages to carry the utter chaos in here, like a toddler carrying an over-filled paper grocery bag up a flight of stairs, to this more-or-less consistent state of organized knowledge is black magic to me lol. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 12:12, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

• Yes - her book, Scientifical Americans: The Culture of Amateur Paranormal Researchers is described as being based on her master's thesis by reliable secondary sources. So why wouldn't we give this a (brief) mention? I do not believe the WP:SCHOLARSHIP and WP:RS policies apply to mentioning the thesis in this context. Tewdar (talk) 11:21, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
• Neutral - As I don't know what a "masters' thesis" is. GoodDay (talk) 16:32, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

  GoodDay, it's a thesis usually required to graduate with a Master's degree, usually taking between 6 months to a year of time to write and supervised by a staff member. In her case, the thesis was a requirement for getting her degree in "Science and the Public" from the University at Buffalo. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 16:37, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

  Yes - include, since it's a rare accomplishment. GoodDay (talk) 16:40, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

  It is most definitely not a rare accomplishment at all, GoodDay. My university produces hundreds of these theses a year alone. Globally probably millions a year. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 16:45, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

  Best to let others weigh in here, at this RFC. I've little to no interest or knowledge in University degrees or thesis. GoodDay (talk) 16:48, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

• Maybe - If per the comment by Tewdar, that her masters thesis was the basis for her book and this is mentioned in reliable secondary sources about her book, then a brief mention (no more than 1-2 sentences) of this link would be acceptable. However that is only in the context of larger section on the book. Otherwise, it is not due to mention the thesis. Without reviewing the article, are there sources to support this? Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:25, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

  There's this, and her website says it is, and the book cites the thesis multiple times. I think a statement like, "Scientifical Americans, based in part on her master's..." is perfectly justifiable. Again, why would anyone want to exclude this rather mundane factoid from the article? Is there something I've missed here? Tewdar (talk) 19:47, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

  I think it's fair to say that there's a lot of interplay between this section and one at WP:COIN regarding the so-called "Guerilla Skeptics of Wikipedia" more generally, so that may be the subtext you're sensing. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 19:51, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

  Ahh I see. So that's what GSoW means! I thought it was something to do with the Graduate Student Organization of Wharton or something...Tewdar (talk) 19:57, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

  @Tewdar: the current section in the article mentioning her thesis appears to be two paragraphs long. That length is undue, and makes no mention at all of its relevance to her book. A masters thesis is usually not notable, as a great many are produced every year as fulfilment towards university degrees.

  I would agree that your proposed sentence would be far more acceptable, as there is (thanks for the links) sources for that linkage. Her thesis is only notable because of her book. Otherwise it is just a necessary requirement for the degree pathway she was on at university. Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:58, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

  Well, this RfC doesn't really give many options, just include or don't include. Even so, I don't think describing the contents of the thesis does any harm... probably a little too much detail, however. Tewdar (talk) 20:04, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

  At worst, I would say it's just a poorly formed RfC, hardly the worst thing anyone's ever done. But I think a consensus by compromise has formed nonetheless, in favor of trimming any inclusion to just a cursory mention that the master's thesis exists. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 21:58, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

  Hey, you should see the RfC I did. They haven't come up with suitable adjectives yet. Tewdar (talk) 00:36, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

• Yes, but briefly - No harm in mentioning the thesis as the basis of her book, but also no reason to spend any more time on it if the thesis isn't notable in itself. PraiseVivec (talk) 15:38, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
• Yes, briefly - Mentioning that her master's thesis lead to her book is likely sufficient. No need to go into excessive detail about what it contains... at most a sentence or two of summary, but I'd be fine with (and prefer) just the fact that it led to her book, which is the notable thing. Fieari (talk) 23:57, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
• Yes in the article, but not in the infobox. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:23, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
• No. As JoelleJay mentions, it is UNDUE prominence to give any detail or an infobox coverage of what is a non-noted thesis meaning not given secondary coverage, and just no importance to others. DUE is supposed to be objectively shown by coverage, which this lacks, although other posters here seem to think it instead means “I feel it should.” The thesis also seems to have had no enduring place in her life so just isn’t a big part of her biography. She wrote a thesis and got a degree like hundreds of thousands of others and help getting a degree is all it did. I just don’t see it as worth a mention. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 05:01, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Discussion

• Note, this is the first in a series of RfCs I will do about various edits I wish to make to the page (which you can see in the diff I provided in the thread "IP reverts"). I will not ping anyone that has participated in this RfC and not on other discussions in this talk page unless they explicitly mention in a reply to this comment that they wish to be notified for further RfCs regarding Hill. I think that's the best way to go about it.Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 11:38, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Why do you want a series of RfC's. What is wrong with the normal editing process? Your pings dont work anyway. -Roxy the dog. wooF 15:09, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

I have to agree with Roxy the dog here; RfCs are certainly a useful tool, but as seen above, the constraining of the issues to a single question can be limiting. Normal editing is, to my mind, generally a better approach. As ever, reasonable minds may differ. Happy New Year, to those who celebrate! Dumuzid (talk) 15:20, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Dumuzid please see the section above for why normal editing (or WP:BRD) failed in this instance. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 16:00, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

I do understand that, and don't begrudge you RfCs, but I also think it's worth attempting a return to the normal course after an RfC if only to see if new blood (so to speak) has changed the editing landscape. You are, of course, entitled to proceed as you see fit. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 16:03, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm assuming because their regular edits were reverted wholesale, and they were told that RFCs we're likely the best way to make headway. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:25, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

So they want to do their poor edits by RfC? That's how it appears, compounded by their admitted antithesis towards anything to do with GSoW, which seems to be their cause celebre ATM. -Roxy the dog. wooF 15:29, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

If there is community consensus to implement an edit, I'd be surprised to call it "poor", Roxy the dog. I attempted to notify you of this discussion in good faith seeking discussion. As you have only replied with bad faith I will not notify you in the future, although you are more than free to keep this page in your watchlist and participate as you wish. As can be seen in the above sections of this talk page, various editors have reverted my edits without meaningfully discussing them. Thus, per WP:BRD and feedback I have received from other editors doing multiple RfCs is the only way to proceed towards a better article without starting an edit-war. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 15:59, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Also I'm not sure what your justification is for calling them poor when you had previously admitted to reverting them without reading my justification for them. If you wish to discuss your issues with me you are free to either take it to my talk page or take it to the appropriate noticeboards. If you don't and just continue casting aspersions about my intentions in this wiki I will not hesitate to take it there myself. Any other editor can see that there is no need for all this piss-fighting between us and I'd rather you just back off and focus on the content rather than the person. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 16:12, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

@Roxy the dog: ordinarily I would agree. RfCs are a pretty heavy and bureaucratic way to preform article edits. However there are a number of editors present, including yourself, who refuse to engage with the good faith edits A._C._Santacruz has attempted to make, and show no sign at all of stopping such tendentious behaviour. Per the discussion at COIN, this article along with others edited by GSoW in this topic area are rife with COI and potential BLP issues. However there is a seemingly strong resistance to change from editors outside of the GSoW group.

If the only way to clean up these articles is to do so via RfC, then multiple RfCs will need to be ran. If however the GSoW editors were instead to engage with Santacruz and others at COIN in good faith then that heavy handed process would not be necessary. Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:39, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

I don't think they need to engage at WP:COIN, come on. That is, in essence, admitting wrong-doing for which there is very little, if any, proof. But I agree with you: GSoW editors should engage with ACSC in good faith on this talk page and other talk pages. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 19:46, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

While this is undoubtedly a discussion for COIN, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I suspect some of that lack of evidence is due to outing concerns, and also the number of articles involved that would require a review to establish it beyond reasonable doubt. I'd be happy to discuss further at COIN or your talk page. Feel free to ping me at either if you want. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:03, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

A COI has not been sufficiently demonstrated, and no poor edits have been attributed correctly to GSoW editors, so I see no need for GSow editors to out themselves, unless they feel like doing so. RP, for instance seems to acknowledge their involvement, though in all the years I've known them, they appear to embrace P&G wholeheartedly, and the pettiness of this campaign is astonishing. People are going about this wrongly, arse backwards. Identify problem articles rather than allegedly problem editors. Note : This article is not a problem article. -Roxy the dog. wooF 23:41, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Roxy I will collapse your comment above unless someone else opposes me doing so. Leave COIN discussions for COIN, and stay on-topic in this discussion of the RfC, please. Labelling other editors as petty or your colorful use of language are both unnecessary for what is really all things considered a terribly boring, run-of-the-mill RfC. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 01:16, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

A.C. Santacruz -- I would respectfully oppose the collapsing, for a couple reasons. First is peculiar to me: I think we try to bound talk page discussions too much and should broaden our borders a bit. But more substantively, I think it generally serves only to exacerbate disputes, and I think it would especially do so where you are 'involved' (no offense intended by that term, of course!). I agree with your underlying point, however. Let's stick to the question at hand and let the other venues resolve themselves. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 01:43, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

That's a fair assessment. Will do as promised then, Dumuzid. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 14:02, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

• Is there any opposition to me closing the RfC as "There is consensus to keep mention of the thesis to one or two sentences, within the context of it being the inspiration for her book. Arguments against any mention cite the policy of Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Scholarship, but the majority of users believe this is not enough to warrant not mentioning the thesis at all. Those against more than a passing mention argue based on WP:DUE and WP:NPOV. There were arguments to include more than that, but they were not the majority opinion nor based on policy."? I don't see the need for this RfC to go much longer, as I feel the consensus is quite clear. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 14:13, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

  yes, you shouldn't close your own RFCs. An uninvolved editor needs to do it. also RFCs may run up to 30 days unless the participants end it WP:RFCCLOSE. This one is heading to a SNOW close anyways in my opinion, so there shouldn't be a problem closing it. Mvbaron (talk) 14:20, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

  Fair, hopefully someone else closes it soon, then. Don't see the point in the process going longer just for the sake of it. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 14:24, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

  I would suggest that in the future you don't bother opening an official RFC. You can use the RFC format for structure in a less formal discussion if you'd like, but avoiding opening a full RFC makes it a lot easier to move on once consensus is clear. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:29, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

  Fair, I'll do that for the next discussions. My main concern was without RfC notices the bias in the editors who have this page watchlisted might alter the results but I guess as long as I notify the wikiprojects (especially wp:bio, since so many users watchlist that), that concern is significantly lessened. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 15:04, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

  No, opening this RFC was the correct thing to do. The stark contrast of the consensus emerging from the RFC and the aggressive and unreasonable stonewalling in the discussions leading to this RFC attest to the need of said RFC. Mvbaron (talk) 19:20, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

  I agree completely. What I mean is more that the benefit is coming from more eyes and editors being involved in the discussion rather than the bureaucracy of RfCs, so (as I did for the thread before, just need to add the text testifying that) as long as I notify the relevant wikiprojects and the questions/issues to discuss are concise and clear this talk page should be able to avoid the stonewalling from now on. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 19:30, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Discussion on her opinion piece on Paranormal State

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There is a consensus against including this paragraph in the article (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 06:38, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

---

Should the article include the following paragraph?

After attending the Phenomenology Conference in Gettysburg, PA, Hill wrote about her observations for the Center for Inquiry (Committee for Skeptical Inquiry). She described what she saw as a shifting attitude of these paranormal groups from a "sciencey-sounding" approach to a spiritual one. She refers to an example of this change, the Catholicism-influenced TV show Paranormal State, noting a lack of scholarship and noting that contemporary investigation teams seemed to be able to "do as they please". Of these paranormal groups, Hill wrote that it is critical for observers of paranormal culture to note "how important FEELING is in these experiences, rather than THINKING." I don't believe it should, based on A) Her opinions described here are not published in independent RS, so I don't see the point in including it B) adding more of her opinions just for the sake of content is unencyclopedic almost to the point I'd consider it WP:Fancruft or WP:SOAPBOXing Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 15:43, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Survey 2

• No, as discussion starter -- Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 15:48, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

• No, as it's a primary source given undue prominence. --Animalparty! (talk) 02:15, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

• No, but I think it could be rewritten using [3] in a similar spirit (pun intended). Dumuzid (talk) 02:43, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

  Sadly that is paywalled to me, but if anyone else can verify Hill is quoted or mentioned in the article I'd appreciate that input. I'm not entirely sure what the copyright policy is with articles (i.e. how much content can be shared) so I won't ask for text itself, just a description of how Hill is used in the piece. The find is much appreciated, Dumuzid!Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 02:55, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

  So, in essence, it is a brief bit of her description of paranormal television becoming more "science-y", though this time focused on the series "Ghost Hunters." A key quote (this much fair use I am comfortable with): “They had gadgets, they talked in jargon, it sounded professional,” Ms. Hill said. “It was convincing to the person at home that this was a serious thing going on in the world.” Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 03:02, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

  (edit conflict) It's the type of secondary source so much needed in this article. e.g. "Sharon Hill... sees the rise of nonfiction paranormal television shows like Syfy's Ghost Hunters... as particularly influential in the culture" and then features several of her quotes on the topic. Thus it is the NY Times providing weight and context to Hill's views, not Wikipedians. --Animalparty! (talk) 03:08, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

  (reply to both) These are great quotes. I think they'd be much more fitting to an article on paranormal television than Hill's BLP, but I don't necessarily have an issue with including a few sentences based on the NYT topic. After all, she is an expert on the topic and her BLP should include some of her views on her subject of expertise if published by RS.Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 03:12, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

• No, rewrite using 3rd party sources - Per Dumuzid and conversation above. I'm sorry to hear A. C. Santacruz feels the need to do an RfC for every change due to edit warring with IPs, but I am glad to see that this RfC in particular might lead to a considerable improvement of the text without cutting information. Fieari (talk) 04:05, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
• 'No, rewrite using secondary sources - Per Dumzid above. The source currently used is WP:PRIMARY and should be replaced with a reliable secondary source. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:35, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Discussion 2

Notified WikiProjects: Biography, Skepticism, Women scientists

I assumed that notifying the users I pinged for the above RfC was somewhat redundant and could be considered spamming (there will be 4-5 discussions in this talk page including this and the RfC, after all), so I decided not to do so. If anyone believes I should notify them once again (or wish to be notified when I start any forthcoming discussion) feel free to reply. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 19:35, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

This passage is based on a primary source (written by the subject), given undue weight. WP:PRIMARY states Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them. WP:BLPSELFPUB allows some self-published sources, so long as the article is not based primarily on them. This article overall has the essence of selectively showcasing the views of and writings of Sharon A. Hill (which would be fine for a magazine article, of which Wikipedia isn't), rather than summarizing what Hill is most known for, which can only be demonstrated by independent secondary sources. There is a large deal of editorial discretion in picking one or a few choice tid-bits from Hill's columns or podcast appearances and inferring these are among the most notable aspects of the subject, a practice which hinders WP:NPOV at best and approaches WP:OR or WP:PROMO at worst. --Animalparty! (talk) 02:15, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

@Fieari: replying to you here. The reason for the repeated RfCs is due to some disruptive behaviour by other by both IP and registered editors. It's unfortunate that some editors are stonewalling progress in cleaning up the article, but unless they chose to engage in good faith with Santacruz this is the only way to establish a consensus. It runs the risk of RfC fatigue, but compared to the alternative of edit wars, AN/ANI referrals, etc. it is preferable. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:38, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Would you want to work with someone who at the same time leads a massive campaign against you on noticeboards for months? I understand that the GSoW folks would not want to cooperate with someone like that. Or with someone who disses them as "stonewalling progress". --Hob Gadling (talk) 19:14, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

I propose the following wording for the section: Hill sees the increased number of paranormal TV shows as allowing paranormal theories to become more influential in culture due to the atmosphere of professionalism and science curated by these shows misleading viewers into believing invention as fact. What do y'all think? It's not a direct quote nor can I read the NYT article, but if Dumuzid or Animalparty believe it is supported by the source I think we could add this into the article and move on.Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 18:53, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

It's not an "atmosphere of professionalism and science". It's something that looks like it to a layperson, but it's fake. --Hob Gadling (talk) 19:14, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

That's fair, Hob Gadling. How do you suggest the sentence be phrased to incorporate that? Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 19:17, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Hob Gadling's point here; perhaps a "thin veneer" of professionalism and science? Trying to find an apt way to point out that it's nonsense. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 19:22, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Veneer was the word I was thinking. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:24, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

I like that -- I would add from the source something like "This went hand in hand-in-hand with the growth of websites about the unexplained and mysterious--like certain Reddit communities--which gave believers the chance to connect worldwide." I am not at all picky about the wording here, but I think it's worth trying to get in the complete thought, as it were. Happy Friday, everyone! Dumuzid (talk) 19:20, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

That's a great quote. Damn, Dumuzid, next time I want good quotes for an article I'll make sure to ping you /s :D! Perhaps that quote could be added paraphrased as part of a second sentence? It would also be interesting to see if she has any thoughts on online skeptic communities. Being able to contrast her thoughts on those two could give some interesting nuance, if there is some way to do it without WP:SYNTH. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 19:25, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, I was a bit misleading there -- that is in fact my paraphrase, so use it as you wish. In the interest of avoiding copyright issues, the actual quote is: The internet allowed for people across the globe to connect with each other over paranormal interests, Ms. Hill added. Reddit became a popular forum to discuss unexplainable mysteries, such as an eerie experience at a rest stop or claims of a demonic run-in at a hospital unit. The site added a new element to these stories by making them interactive, with readers going back and forth in the comments, joining and adding to the narrative themselves. Sorry for my imprecision! Dumuzid (talk) 19:29, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

In that case your original paraphrase mostly works, although I'm unsure if it should be phrased as an opinion from Hill, an observation by the NYT article or just stated as you did. No particular preference, but it is a choice to make. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 19:32, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

If it's supported by the NYT, I think it's fine to say in wikivoice. Although it's a summary of Hill's words, it's also a WP:BLUE situation, so I think we're okay. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:33, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.