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This talk page was last edited (diff) on 1 July 2023 at 20:33 by BrownHairedGirl (talk • contribs • logs)

Proposed GA nomination of Angela Merkel

Hi! I'd like to nominate Angela Merkel for consideration as a Good Article, and I'm reaching out to you as you are one of its most significant contributors. I have fixed some issues with that article, and I expanded it a little in some places, but I still feel that this is the right way to go per WP:GAN/I#N1.

Please let me know what you think of this. I'm also reaching out to some other top contributors, but one of them has been banned, and another one hasn't been active since 2018. Actualcpscm (talk) 20:08, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

@Actualcpscm: my edits to that article were all drive-by. I wish you luck with your work on improving the article, but it's not my field, so I won't be helping. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:14, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! I expected to take this task on by myself from the beginning, that's just part of the processes. Happy editing! Actualcpscm (talk) 20:16, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 5 June 2023

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Administrators' newsletter – June 2023

News and updates for administrators from the past month (May 2023).

Administrator changes

Ingenuity

• Ddstretch
• Prodego
• Resolute

CheckUser changes

Courcelles

Guideline and policy news

• Following an RfC, editors indefinitely site-banned by community consensus will now have all rights, including sysop, removed.
• As a part of the Wikimedia Foundation's IP Masking project, a new policy has been created that governs the access to temporary account IP addresses. An associated FAQ has been created and individual communities can increase the requirements to view temporary account IP addresses.

Technical news

• Bot operators and tool maintainers should schedule time in the coming months to test and update their tools for the effects of IP masking. IP masking will not be deployed to any content wiki until at least October 2023 and is unlikely to be deployed to the English Wikipedia until some time in 2024.

Arbitration

• The arbitration case World War II and the history of Jews in Poland has been closed. The topic area of Polish history during World War II (1933-1945) and the history of Jews in Poland is subject to a "reliable source consensus-required" contentious topic restriction.

Miscellaneous

• Following a community referendum, the arbitration policy has been modified to remove the ability for users to appeal remedies to Jimbo Wales.

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Category:Romanesque architecture in the United States has been nominated for deletion

Category:Romanesque architecture in the United States has been nominated for deletion. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 00:42, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:YYYY in BMX category header

Template:YYYY in BMX category header has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. –Aidan721 (talk) 18:47, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Cycle sports chronology category header templates

Template:Cycle sports chronology category header templates has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. –Aidan721 (talk) 18:47, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Many small reverts

I genuinely feel somewhat guilty that you're taking it upon yourself to revert each of the changes. I'm not stalling, or trying to prejudice the outcome of the discussion, it's IRL intervening. I'll be back Sunday or Monday. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 17:13, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

@Iveagh Gardens: thanks but it's no prob. With WP:AWB, its easy. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:14, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! I appreciate that. Even though I've been editing for many years, and have a reasonably high edit count, I still often feel like a newbie, as there were decisions made before I became more active, and there were times when my editing was confined to particular silos. I also continue to learn about the editing processes, and would credit yourself with learning the value of archiving links in references. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 17:19, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

@Iveagh Gardens thanks for being so nice about this. It's not fun having your work reverted, but you have handled it very graciously.

I don't want to fork the discussion at Talk:Dublin Bay South (Dáil constituency)#Merger_proposal, so I'll save the substance for there. But yes, I get that feeling of a huge load of history behind how things are. Back in 2006/7 there were huge sprawling discussions that made a lot of key decisions on how to handle topics which had developed slowly but which needed standardising as the rate of editing grew massively. It was fun being part of that. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:03, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Irish railway station naming

Hello, I was making changes to the names of Irish railway stations on their articles (generally correcting incorrect Irish naming) when I came across Sligo Mac Diarmada railway station. It is an outlier amongst those I was making changes to in that the station name is included. I'm wondering what should be done in terms of consistent title names, if anything should be done at all. Thanks EthanL13 (talk) 18:41, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Sorry @EthanL13, but I dunno. I have done little substantive work on rail stations. I suggest asking at WT:IE. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:57, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Ah, sorry about that! I saw you had requested the move of the article before so I thought I'd ask you. Thanks very much. EthanL13 (talk) 18:59, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

(talk page stalker): there is a wider discussion on this topic at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland#Irish railway station naming that you should probably review. ww2censor (talk) 21:38, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, @Ww2censor. Pinging @EthanL13. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:41, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Scholars and academics

Hello, BHG,

I see a lot of categories you just created appeared on the Empty categories list. But there is no point in tagging them as empty categories if they are going to be filled over the next few days. So, I'm just checking in with you. Thanks. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:49, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, @Liz. Yes, the subcats of Category:Irish scholars and academics by county are gonna be filled in the next few days. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 07:10, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

PS @Liz i just did a quick initial run, and all the subcats of Category:Irish scholars and academics by county now have at least one page. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:20, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Errors

could you fix the errors in Category:1850s establishments in British Columbia and Category:1850s establishments in New Brunswick? looks related to this edit. Frietjes (talk) 21:40, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, @Frietjes. I am investigating. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:49, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

@Frietjes it's resolved for that set. The problem was that Category:1850s establishments in Quebec and Category:1850s establishments in Ontario had both been redirected by @Aidan721 using {{title decade}} instead of typing 1850s: [1], [2]

So when Module:CanadaByProvinceCatNav started today to try to resolve redirects, it barfed when it found {{Category redirect|{{Title decade}}s establishments in Canada West}}.

I fixed the redirects in these cases, but there may be more such cases. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:39, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

great! how about File:Antigua and Baruda Commonwealth Games.png and the other files in Category:Pages with script errors? thank you. Frietjes (talk) 16:04, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

@Frietjes: I think I know what the prob is, and I am on it. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:33, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

@Frietjes & @Fayenatic london: fixed, in these edits[3]. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:03, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

@Fayenatic london: maybe this edit that is created the error in File:Antigua and Baruda Commonwealth Games.png? Frietjes (talk) 16:30, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Not directly. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:34, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

The detail of the fix is beyond me, but thank you.

For future reference, may {{title decade}} etc now be used within a {{category redirect}} if another page tries to resolve it? – Fayenatic London 22:24, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

@Fayenatic london: the fix is crude. {{Resolve category redirect}} will now simply ignore any such redirect. In other words it now fails without exploding.

e.g. if Category:1805 in the Emerald Isle contains {{Category redirect|{{title year}} in Ireland}} ...

then {{Resolve category redirect|Category:1805 in the Emerald Isle}} just returns 1805 in the Emerald Isle

So I would recommend not using {{title year}}, {{title decade}} (or any other template) in the target of a {{Category redirect}} BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:55, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, at least that's clear. @Aidan721: please note. – Fayenatic London 06:41, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

@Fayenatic london: I am trying to make a list {{Category redirect}}s with template calls in the target. I think that most such uses will be {{title year}} or {{title decade}} , so I am checking only the 21K catredirs with a digit in their title, rather than all 100K catredirs.

AWB is pre-parsing the list right now. It will take a few hours. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:07, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

@Fayenatic london: list-making complete I found 171 {{Category redirect}}s with a template in the target. About a third are for years in Mexico; the remainder are nearly all for pre-confederation Canada, presumably created by @Aidan721.

I will hack together an AWB Custom Module to fix them by harcoding the year/decade. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:22, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

@Fayenatic london: all done, in these 171 edits.

In case anyone needs to do this again, I have published my AWB module at User:BrownHairedGirl/AWB modules/Replace title year or title decade in category redirects.

Also I have added a note to the /doc about the use of templates: see Template:Resolve category redirect#Templates. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:34, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you very much, BHG! I have also noted the safety feature in that doc section. – Fayenatic London 07:45, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, @Fayenatic london.

Would you be able to add a note there too about {{R from category navigation}}? BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:30, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Done, plus the parameter |keep=yes. – Fayenatic London 15:01, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

That is great. Thanks, @Fayenatic.

When I created {{Resolve category redirect}} using code stolen from @Tom.Reding's great work on {{Navseasoncats}}/Module:Navseasoncats, I thought it was a bit of a niche tool. But {{Resolve category redirect}} is now used on ~570K pages, so this polishing was overdue ... and thanks for your expert diligence in sorting it out. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:18, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

How is it that it can still resolve such templates when they are nested in other templates rather than saved on the page? e.g. at Category:1971 establishments in Ceylon, {{EstcatCountry}} resolves the decade parent from Ceylon to Category:1970s establishments in Sri Lanka. – Fayenatic London 09:53, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

@Fayenatic london: AFAICS, that's 'cos Category:1970s establishments in Ceylon contains {{Category redirect|1970s establishments in Sri Lanka}}: i.e. the target contains no template to parse, so Module:Resolve category redirect is happy. Similar redirects are needed for 1980s to 2010s, so that they too can be linked.

Or have I misunderstood you? BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:06, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Ah, I see, thank you. Yes, that's what I meant – within EstcatCountry, it builds the name Category:1970s establishments in Ceylon using templates, and that's no problem; all that matters is that that redirect page must not do likewise. Well, I'm glad that still works. – Fayenatic London 10:08, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes, @Fayenatic london, that's it. So long as the redirect exists and the redirect target is in plaintext, all shall be well.

I have created the missing redirects. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:23, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Good idea. I have done the same for disestablishments and the decade parents.

By the way, that was not a permalink. To get one of those, click "older" then "newer". 😀 – Fayenatic London 10:36, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Category:Broadcasters from from Cork (city) has been nominated for merging

Category:Broadcasters from from Cork (city) has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Certes (talk) 14:02, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Association football estcatdecade

Template:Association football estcatdecade has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. Gonnym (talk) 16:50, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Category:Academicians of Ukraine has been nominated for merging

Category:Academicians of Ukraine has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Estopedist1 (talk) 15:35, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

CFD comments

Hello, BHG,

I saw some of your comments at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 13#Expatriates A-G. I don't participate much in CFD discussions these days but I do tag and delete empty categories and some of these categories are, unfortunately, emptied out of process before CFD discussions are closed (which I've complained about a lot with little effect).

Any way, I just wanted to inform you, if you weren't already aware, that this CFD discussion is just the latest one to involve expatriate, emigrant or descent categories. Some of the other discussions are listed in the nomination statement but I wouldn't be surprised if there were additional ones. These nominations are usually quite large and it seems like the prevailing consensus at CFD these days is a movement to delete small categories, regardless of whether they are part of a larger category tree. Also, as you also probably know, participation is generally low at CFD discussions so unamity among 2 or 3 editors usually decides what happens with categories. There are also a lot more NAC closures that in the past but they tend to be on discussions with a unamity of opinion. Just a couple of observations I've made over the past 18 months or so if you are interested in looking into this further. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:30, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Category:Independent politicians in Curaçao has been nominated for deletion

Category:Independent politicians in Curaçao has been nominated for deletion. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Estopedist1 (talk) 14:08, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Redmond Roche

Dear BrownhairedGirl, you have almost 3 million edits. That is an incredible number. Please allow me to query one edit among these millions that you recently made on the article Redmond Roche. You replaced "d." with "died", which would be fine if it were in plain text, but in the given case it occurs in the footquote of an {{Sfn}} citation. Please reconsider.

I admit that my frequent footquotes in the text disrupt the text and make it difficult to read. I have recently experimented with a citation style called "list-defined references" WP:LDR. That seems to result in much more readable text. Implementing such a change in citation style on all the citations I added would of course keep me busy for a long time. I wonder whether it is worthwhile. With many thanks and best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 15:26, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

@Johannes Schade: thanks for your kind words.

The relevant guidance on this is at MOS:DIED: use b. only where space is limited e.g. tables and infoboxes. Obviously, the same goes for d.

Footnotes and refs are not space-limited, so I see no need for the abbreviation. I did those changes to Redmond Roche using a script (User:BrownHairedGirl/biogdashes.js) which I have used on many thousands of articles over the last 9 years, and it has not been a controversial change.

This is not a biggie, so don't worry about it or feel that you have to go back to tweak other articles, but it's something to bear in mind going forwards. Feel free to use my script if that helps.

Same with WP:LDR, tho that's an unrelated issue. I think that SFN is best for book refs, but for other purposes I like LDR, and I use LDR on any non-trivial new articles I write, but I wouldn't bother going back to change old articles unless I was polishing it for WP:GA.

And thanks for your fine, scholarly work on Redmond Roche. It's always a pleasure to find a well-written and well-sourced article on a topic where so may of the other articles are stubs. And I hadn't realised until now that this biog of an early modern Irish politician was written by a German. Thanks for your great contribution to en.wp's coverage of a troubled period of Irish history.

Best wishes, BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:01, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Dear BrownhairedGirl. Thank you very much for your quick reply. As you said "thanks for your kind words" and it is a bit more than that: thank you for your advice and encouragement to use LDR. I needed this. You have convinced me to go for it. Do you perhaps have a recent example that I could follow? First I must find the right formatting, especially for the list. I am busy with GA for Antoine Hamilton, where I use LDR. That is another 17th-century minor Irishman for you.

But back to Redmond Roche. Your "d. -> died" replacement is inside a quotation. Don't you agree that abbreviations in quotations should be left alone, other than perhaps explained between square brackets? I cannot find MOS:DIED. It does not seem to exist, but I found the instruction, "use d. only where space is limited, with consistency within any given table column." in MOS:DATES. I suppose this means when writing in Wikipedia and does not pertain to quotations.

I wonder whether you have seen where your "d. -> died" replacement is. You will find it inside the Sfn citation at the end of the first sentence of the second paragraph of the Parliament section. This citation is from Ohlmeyer's article on Donough MacCarthy in the ODNB. The citation uses a footquote (see WP:FOOTQUOTE). I like using footquotes as they allow a reviewer to quickly see what the source really says. Admittedly not many people use footquotes. The replacement is inside a parenthesis inside the quotation. It seems that your script could not handle this case. It changed "(d. [died] in or after 1610)" to "(died [died] in or after 1610)". I try to explain the abbreviations I find in such source texts and added the "[died]" to explain the "d.". I once had a run-in with a reviewer who pretended not to understand the usual abbreviations found in genealogical texts. The "d." is easy, but there are others which are Latin and not so obvious, e.g. "d.v.p.".

With many thanks and greetings, Johannes Schade (talk) 18:04, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 18 § Category:Association football people by prefecture in Japan

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 18 § Category:Association football people by prefecture in Japan. Qwerfjkltalk 16:38, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

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Re: your user page

Hi, BHG. Just a quick note from one of few to have worked here a bit longer than you (although with only a pittance- 1% of your astonishing # of contributions). You mention at the top of your page, items "to the right". However, the placement of images by the rendering engine, is dependent on the dimensions of the end user's display device. In my case, the userboxes are displayed below, rather than to the right of the text, so removing or editing that particular notice would improve the page accuracy. [not bragging about my user page, which likely has more errors, and I don't remember touching in years]. Blainster (talk) 20:55, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, @Blainster. Fied[4] BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:58, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

PS @Blainster, I see that you have been here nearly 20 years! Wow!

In the UK or Ireland, if you'd murdered someone you'd be considered for parole after about 14 years. What on earth did you do to get locked up for 20 years in Wikipedia? BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:02, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

It seemed like a quaint but useful spare time project. Who knew how it would grow. I retired a couple years ago, so have more time for it now. Blainster (talk) 21:15, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Category:Irish cricketers

Hello. Please don't remove the above category from Irish cricketers when adding cricketers by Irish county. The cricket project historically categorises players by nationality → international formats played → domestic team(s) played for. This is now going to take me an absolute age to add this category back to the 400 or so from which it has been removed. This should have been discussed at the cricket project. StickyWicket (talk) 23:00, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi @AssociateAffiliate/StickyWicket

I future, I'd appreciate a more friendly tone. And your sig breaches WP:CUSTOMSIG/P: A customised signature should make it easy to identify your username. Your sig bears no relation to your username, which confused me and wasted my time. Please fix your sig.

Also, where is the "thank you BHG for all your hard work in creating and populating Category:Irish cricketers by county"?

Now to your complaint. Diffusing categories to subcats is routine category maintenance, and requires no prior discussion. See WP:PARENTCAT and WP:CATDD. The cricket project does not own these articles.

If there is an actual consensus that Category:Irish cricketers should be non-diffusing, then tag it with {{non-diffusing subcategory}}. But please don't rebuke me for your project's failure to tag the category.

To re-populate Category:Irish cricketers (if there is a documented consensus to do so), then it's an easy task with WP:AWB or WP:Cat-a-lot. If you show me evidence of this consensus, then I will do it myself. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:25, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

If you're looking for thanks, you've come to the wrong website. I don't expect thanks, or have received much, for the thousands of cricket articles I have created and expanded. My signature is about as un-confusing as it gets. Click on it, you'll come here. You and one other person, in about 10 years, appear to be the only ones who have a problem with it and that has been as a result of being asked not to do certain things to cricket articles.

Please explain to me how the following categories are related: Category:Irish cricketers, Category:People from Dublin (which should correctly be Category:Cricketers from Dublin). One is stating a nationality, one is stating a place. There is no relation between the two, and so no need to remove one to add the other. Cricketers by location isn't a subcat of cricketers by nationality. It isn't a failure of the project, we have a structured and organised categorisation system with explanations for which article belong where. I think the failure is at your end, by not checking with the cricket project how categorisation is organised. By all means add Category:Cricketers from Blahville, but please don't replace the nationality category. StickyWicket (talk) 10:19, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

@AssociateAffiliate: WP:CUSTOMSIG/P is clear and longstanding. Your sig is intentionally misleading; please fix it so that other editors can read your username in your sig instead of having to click on the link.

You haven't supplied any evidence of a consensus to keep Category:Irish cricketers to be non-diffusing. I look fwd to the link.

AFAIK, in no case did I replace Category:Irish cricketers with Category:People from County Dublin or Category:People from Dublin (city). If you disagree, please post the diff.

You are showing little understanding of the edits that I did to populate Category:Irish cricketers by county. Please take some time to review my edits and the structure of the subcats of Category:Irish cricketers, and note e.g. that Category:Irish cricketers by county is a subcat of Category:Irish cricketers. Also, please read WP:PARENTCAT. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:37, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

You clearly know best, have been a major contributor to cricket articles for years, know the categorisation procedures of the project inside out. So best to head to the cricket talk page and ask the question, which has actually been answered by another user. Also, feel free to ignore them. StickyWicket (talk) 11:09, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

@AssociateAffiliate/StickyWicket: I asked you for evidence of a consensus. You provided no evidence. The opinion of one other editor is not evidence of a consensus.

You falsely claimed that I replaced Category:Irish cricketers with Category:People from Dublin, and you have not even had the courtesy to retract that, let aloe apologise.

Most of my nearly 3 million edits have categorisation, so yes, I do know how categorsation works. OTOH, you can't even manage to use a WP:SIG which actually displays your username, as required by WP:CUSTOMSIG/P. You apparently cannot read a

diff ... and you seem to be unaware that every category "Fooers from ThisPlace in ThatCountry'" is a subcat of "ThatCountryish Fooers".

So quit hectoring me, and stop undoing the diffusion. If you want to make these categories non-diffusing, then open a WP:RFC to propose that. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:44, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Category:Police officers from County Fermanagh has been nominated for merging

Category:Police officers from County Fermanagh has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Category:Police officers from County Kildare has been nominated for merging

Category:Police officers from County Kildare has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Category:Police officers from County Laois has been nominated for merging

Category:Police officers from County Laois has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Category:Police officers from County Leitrim has been nominated for merging

Category:Police officers from County Leitrim has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:32, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Category:Police officers from County Louth has been nominated for merging

Category:Police officers from County Louth has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:33, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Category:Police officers from County Meath has been nominated for merging

Category:Police officers from County Meath has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:33, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Category:Police officers from County Offaly has been nominated for merging

Category:Police officers from County Offaly has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:34, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Category:Police officers from County Waterford has been nominated for merging

Category:Police officers from County Waterford has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:34, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Category:Police officers from County Westmeath has been nominated for merging

Category:Police officers from County Westmeath has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:35, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Category:Police officers from County Wexford has been nominated for merging

Category:Police officers from County Wexford has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:35, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Category:Women mathematicians from Northern Ireland has been nominated for merging

Category:Women mathematicians from Northern Ireland has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:13, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Category:Palaeontologists from Northern Ireland has been nominated for merging

Category:Palaeontologists from Northern Ireland has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:14, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Category:Statisticians from Northern Ireland has been nominated for merging

Category:Statisticians from Northern Ireland has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:15, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Category:Meteorologists from Northern Ireland has been nominated for merging

Category:Meteorologists from Northern Ireland has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:16, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Category:Women archaeologists from Northern Ireland has been nominated for merging

Category:Women archaeologists from Northern Ireland has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:17, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Category:Botanists from Northern Ireland has been nominated for merging

Category:Botanists from Northern Ireland has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:18, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Category:Roboticists from Northern Ireland has been nominated for merging

Category:Roboticists from Northern Ireland has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:19, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

People by occupation in NI

hope you don't mind but I've taken the liberty of indenting and numbering the notes. Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:41, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Did a few more indents to leave the outer space free for contribs by other editors. Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:44, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

@Laurel Lodged: I DO mind. Do NOT refactor my comments. Your vindictive, disruptive, bad-faith nominations are enough hassle already, without that.

Please undo. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:45, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Really your indentation is quite sloppy. You've been around long enough to know how this works. It's a full time job here tidying up after you. Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:51, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

@Laurel Lodged You inserted a new comment by you above one of mine which is ay out of order.

And you accusing me of being sloppy when you did no WP:BEFORE is not just hypocritical; it is trolling. Cut it out.

It is also untrue. I use the reply-to-tool, which indents automatically and accurately.

You are vindictively stalking me, and overtly trolling me. STOP IT. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:59, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

reply-to-tools are grand in most cases. But they are no replacement for reading space that is intuitive and easy to read and makes vertically-aligned space for contribs by later editors. Right now, it looks like has been 10 votes whereas there has only been 1 vote. So yes - abandon the tools and use line-of-sight by hand. Laurel Lodged (talk) 17:02, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Nonsense. A post begining Note is clearly not a !vote.

Quit the refactoring, along with the rest of your vindictive, disruptive, bad-faith antics. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:17, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Typo

Your 6:38 post at CfD might need amending, unless I'm misreading it? Seems to say that a cat is a subcat of itself. All the best. PamD 18:33, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Of the many uncharitable things that BHG ought to correct in that thread, that honest typo would be near the end of the list. BTW, I was called here by a notification bot. Definitely not stalking. Laurel Lodged (talk) 18:57, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

@Laurel Lodged your stalking is plain as a pikestaff, as is your bad faith.

Now stay off my talk, except for notifications.

Note that I have pinged you solely so that you see my request, not to invite a reply. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:05, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Many Thanks, @PamD. Fixed[5] BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:02, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Women in Red July 2023

Women in Red June 2023, Vol 9, Iss 7, Nos 251, 252, 274, 275, 276 Online events: New: Women in Red's 8th anniversary | Alphabet run A & B | Sports Continuing: Peace and Diplomacy (year-long initiative) | #1day1woman Tip of the month: Look out for contributors interested in writing about women and invite them to join Women in Red Other ways to participate: Become a member. You can always opt-out of notifications. Join the conversations on our talkpage. Help us plan future events. Follow us on social media: Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest | Twitter

--Lajmmoore (talk) 07:42, 27 June 2023 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 24#Irish field hockey players

Since you don't seem to have been notified, you may be interested in Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 24#Irish field hockey players and Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 24#Irish trade unionists * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:19, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, @Pppery. I had indeed missed it, having not been notified.

Sadly a small tag team of bad faith editors is maliciously targeting my categorisation efforts, as revenge for my opposition to some of her nominations, and these are a part of that campaign.

The tag team is at it again at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 25#People_by_occupation_in_Northern_Ireland. In 17 years at CFD, I have never seen anything like their antics. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:58, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I already saw and commented on that nomination. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:59, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, @Pppery. This is appalling, and I have no idea where it will end.. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:01, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Apologies for CFD comment

I mentioned it in the discussion, but I wanted to more formally apologize here. The second part of my comment here did not assume WP:AGF at all on your part. I have now stricken and replied with a retraction but I'm embarrassed it was up for a few days.

Sorry about that! - RevelationDirect (talk) 11:33, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, @RevelationDirect ... but you have left in place the first part which falsely asserts that I threatened the closer. You ave also not struck your bogus allegation that I engaged in WP:POINT disruption.

That discussion raises a number of thorny issues, one of which is the pile-on by editors (sadly including you) who misrepresent the guideline WP:SMALLCAT by ignoring the headline issue of "potential for growth" and instead address only current pagecount.

A closer should apply WP:NOTVOTE and WP:ROUGHCONSENSUS by giving little weight to such !votes. Sadly not all closers do so, which makes it a matter for WP:DRV. And if a closer does correctly disregard such !votes, the disregarded may be disgruntled and seek a DRV.

DRV is the community's venue for reviewing contested closes, and your sad choice to label is as a threat in at least the recent discussions is both ABF and WP:BATTLEGROUND. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:55, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I can see how, from your perspective, my retraction and apology are incomplete. I've sincerely gone over my earlier comments to look for problematic ones but obviously that wasn't a neutral review.

I still have concerns about both your DRV comments and expanding a nomination you opposed. And you have concerns both that I am not acting independently as part of a tag team and that I'm deliberately misreading guidelines to target your categories. (That was a good faith attempt to summarize your views; if I missed the mark let me know.)

Is this something we can talk out here instead of inadvertently disrupting the CFD nominations? Does mediation make sense? Should we both report each other for violating WP:5P4? Despite our recent disagreements, you have a lot more experience in Wikipeda than I do and I still value your input for finding a path forward. - RevelationDirect (talk) 12:17, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

@RevelationDirect: I have no ability to judge whether your repeated ignoring of the actual terms of guideline is deliberate. All I know is that it keeps on happening.

I also do no know whether you are a part of the tag team. All I do know is that you both repeatedly endorse the tag team, and that you repeatedly act as their attack dog by piling on me for criticising them.

How about we avoid the drama boards, and you:

1. strike your allegations of WP:POINTiness
2. accept that WP:SMALLCAT really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really does say that is about "potential for growth" rather than current pagecount.

I struggle to grasp how any competent, good-faith editor could realistically and genuinely fail to understand the difference between "potential for growth" and "current pagecount", and I don't see how any mediation or drama board is going to remedy that.

I am sad about tis, 'cos I have mostly enjoyed our previous interactions. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:34, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

PS @RevelationDirect I should add a longer explanation of why I added 246 categories to WP:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 25#People by occupation in Northern Ireland.

As I wrote when I added them, I did so to uphold the principle of consistency, by applying the same action to all categories which fit the criteria stated by the nominator.

My work on categories for 17 years has been underpinned by that principle of consistency. With category titles, that principle is what allows editors to apply a category to a page without having to guess its title: consistency means that they can accurately infer the title by applying simple rules.

Consistency of category titles also allows the use of category navigation templates (e.g. {{AllIrelandByCountyCatNav}}); they rely on sibling categories using exactly the same naming format.

Similarly, consistency of category titles allows the use of category header templates, such as {{Railway stations in Great Britain opened in YYYY category header}}; category header templates rely on multiple sets of categories using exactly the same naming format.

Same goes for other category rules, e.g. those in WP:OC such as WP:SMALLCAT. Applying those rules consistently allows editors to know when to spend their time creating and populating categories. If categories are randomly deleted on random principles, then editors who create a category cannot know whether they are wasting their time. If your work can be deleted at whim, then it's foolish do that work.

That's why in the late 2000s, a huge amount of work went into agreeing (and often documenting) sets of principles which have been remarkably stable for 15 years.

That lack of consistency is one of the reasons why I opposed LL's nomination. That nom did not even try to consistently apply the same principle to all the subcats of Category:People from Northern Ireland by occupation. It was an attempt to vindictively and maliciously apply a principle to a set of categories recently created by BHG, with a handful o others thrown in for plausible deniability.

In my view, the principle being applied was a clear misuse of the cited guideline WP:SMALLCAT. We disagree on that, but that's not the issue I want to here.

The principle of consistency requires that if editors want to upmerge the set of "subcats of Category:People from Northern Ireland by occupation which currently have fewer than 4 pages", then the same action should be applied to all the categories in that set. My addition of the other categories allows a decision to made consistently.

I am very miffed that you chose to ignore my clear assertion of that principle of consistency. Instead you chose to ABF and to accuse me of WP:POINT disruption. (That's a bit rich when you have been posting repeatedly about the need to AGF).

Instead of attacking me for upholding consistency, you should have been asking LL why he had not himself nominated the full set, and why he chose instead to focus on categories create by BHG within the previous 48 hours.

Sadly, that's not the worst aspect of this. By attacking me, you missed the simple fact that the central purpose of LL's nomination was to target my category creations. LL's nomination is a stunning example both of WP:POINT disruption and of WP:HOUNDING. Sadly, you radically misread the situation, and ended up attacking the editor who is the target of the LL/Oculi tag team ... thereby assisting the WP:POINT antics of LL.

So the long and short of it is that you ended up both endorsing the misapplication of WP:SMALLCAT, and relatedly attaching the editor (me) who is being targeted by the vindictive tag team. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:27, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – July 2023

News and updates for administrators from the past month (June 2023).

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Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 12:57, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Tom Crean Explorer

Hi BrownHairedGirl and forgive me if I'm not using the correct protocol while writing this. I'm pretty green when it comes to the style required when making a request on Wikipedia. For some years now I've been requesting changes to the article about Tom Crean and having written a self-published biography about the subject that was released in 2018, I declared a COI which prevented me making those edits as they'd be considered self-serving. In May 2023 my biography was released under the portfolio of an established publisher so I assume this changes things somewhat with regards to the credibility of my knowledge of the subject - Tom Crean and the inclusion and references to my biography. Changes were last made after I submitted my sources to the Royal Irish Academy and because my biography, at the time, was the self-published edition, those changes were attributed to them. I'm seeking to provide a Wikipedia editor with my research in order that an accurate and fuller account of Tom Crean's life and career can form the entry for him on Wikipedia. Currently the article contains a number of errors and requires additional events be added. I'd be most grateful for the help of an editor in my quest - many thanks Timfoley50 (talk) 18:11, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi Tim

You had my attention as soon as you mentioned Tom Crean. I have huge regard for Tom, as a modest Kerryman who did extraordinary things but never bragged. So it's a pleasure to hear from a biographer of Tom. Congrats on your work, as well on your choice of subject.

I assume that you came to me because of this edit[6] I made to the categories on that article. That was just a quick drive-by edit to populate Category:20th-century Irish explorers, and I have no other involvement with the article.

When I read your message, I did consider getting stuck in, but I quickly thought better of it.

Sorry to say no, but here's why.

Tom Crean (explorer) is a Featured article, the highest standard of article on Wikipedia. To get that badge, it is has been scrutinised in very fine detail by a bunch of experienced editors whose attention to detail is as legendary as their lack of mercy. (They do rigour, not favours). Their standards are very high, so I am wary of making any substantive changes to such polished prose. In this case, there is a list of books as sources, but I have read none of them, and I would not want to wade in without being thoroughly familiar with the sources. That would be kinda Randy in Boise conduct, and I deplore that sort of editing. Before using a new source, I'd want to wait to see how it was reviewed, and how its scholarly credibility is weighed by historians.

I do get your concern. You have done a lot of research, a lot of writing, and taken the long march through the nightmare of 21st-centry book publishing. You believe that your hard work has significantly advanced the state of knowledge on Tom Crean, and you would like to see other works updated. You would probably also like a wee bit of recognition.

All of that is fine and and laudable, and understandable. In your shoes, I'd feel much the same.

However, I think that with the best of intentions, you seem to be overdoing things a bit. Or maybe even a fair way more than a bit.

I see on Talk:Tom Crean (explorer) that you first promoted your book there back in 2018. There was extensive discussion, and even an RFC (Talk:Tom Crean (explorer)#RFC SEP-29-2018). A bunch of editors put a lot of time into this, including @Guliolopez, Factotem, and Spintendo -- all respected and experienced editors whose judgements I usually respect.

You also stared another thread in 2020. In fact, since you started the thread Talk:Tom Crean (explorer)#Changes_to_the_Tom_Crean_Wikipedia_entry on 22 July 2018, the talk page has discussed nothing at all but your book and your edit requests. Those discussions now make up more than half of the talk page, which will be 18 years old on 24 July 2023. So there can be no doubt whatsoever that any editor with a serious interest in the article is very well aware of your book. It seems to me to be quite likely that some of them feel that they are far too aware of it.

In that context, going behind their backs to approach me was a very unwise move. It looks very much like WP:Forum shopping, and it is deeply disrespectful to the editors who have already given you a lot of their time.

I have taken a peek at your userpage and at your contribs list, and I have to say that if you are not already in not being here to build an encyclopedia territory, then you approaching it at speed. I do understand your enthusiasm, but you are way way way overdoing it.

This relentless pushiness does no favours to you personally, to your book, or to your cause of state recognition from his country of birth. Please, Tim, knock it off. The book is out there, and it can speak for itself. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:30, 1 July 2023 (UTC)