::: Oh, let's sing the song of "bad faith" again. As soon as somebody raises something you don't like, Smerus, it's "bad faith" - even though it's advice that comes from two other respected editors. Nobody's fooled by your mean-spirited attempt to smear Gerda and you ought to be ashamed of yourself. --[[User:RexxS|RexxS]] ([[User talk:RexxS|talk]]) 20:38, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
::: Oh, let's sing the song of "bad faith" again. As soon as somebody raises something you don't like, Smerus, it's "bad faith" - even though it's advice that comes from two other respected editors. Nobody's fooled by your mean-spirited attempt to smear Gerda and you ought to be ashamed of yourself. --[[User:RexxS|RexxS]] ([[User talk:RexxS|talk]]) 20:38, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
:::::: What an interesting comment! I am delighted that [[User:RexxS|RexxS]] has found time to divert himself from scuba-diving to consider Wagner. I certainly realise the implications of a 'bad faith' imputation, which I considered carefully, and used here for the first time ever, I believe, on Wikipedia. By asserting, however, that I make this accusation 'as soon as somebody raises something I don't like', and further more by calling me 'mean-spirited' and a 'smear'er, [[User:RexxS|RexxS]] is adopting precisely the [[ad hominem]] arguments he purports to deplore, which perhaps puts his valuable contribution in context. Not, of course, that I am accusing him of bad faith.--[[User:Smerus|Smerus]] ([[User talk:Smerus|talk]]) 10:01, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
:::::: What an interesting comment! I am delighted that [[User:RexxS|RexxS]] has found time to divert himself from scuba-diving to consider Wagner. I certainly realise the implications of a 'bad faith' imputation, which I considered carefully, and used here for the first time ever, I believe, on Wikipedia. By asserting, however, that I make this accusation 'as soon as somebody raises something I don't like', and further more by calling me 'mean-spirited' and a 'smear'er, [[User:RexxS|RexxS]] is adopting precisely the [[ad hominem]] arguments he purports to deplore, which perhaps puts his valuable contribution in context. Not, of course, that I am accusing him of bad faith.--[[User:Smerus|Smerus]] ([[User talk:Smerus|talk]]) 10:01, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
:::::::He didn't call you 'mean-spirited', nor a 'smear'er. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 10:41, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
:::::Smerus, that "ugly column" snark was completely out of line! Per [[MOS:INFOBOX]]: "The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article. Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through '''discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article.'''" Simply raising the issue does not warrant such an ad hominem attack as this. Frankly, I think it's ridiculous that some variant of <nowiki>{{infobox person}}</nowiki> is NOT used in this article. And frankly, I strongly FAVOR having infoboxes in any biography, they are quite suitable. But to the point, if you oppose something, remember WP:NPA and simply state your position without attacking others. [[User:Montanabw|<font color="006600">Montanabw</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Montanabw|(talk)]]</sup> 21:33, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
:::::Smerus, that "ugly column" snark was completely out of line! Per [[MOS:INFOBOX]]: "The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article. Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through '''discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article.'''" Simply raising the issue does not warrant such an ad hominem attack as this. Frankly, I think it's ridiculous that some variant of <nowiki>{{infobox person}}</nowiki> is NOT used in this article. And frankly, I strongly FAVOR having infoboxes in any biography, they are quite suitable. But to the point, if you oppose something, remember WP:NPA and simply state your position without attacking others. [[User:Montanabw|<font color="006600">Montanabw</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Montanabw|(talk)]]</sup> 21:33, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
::::::As it happens, I strongly favour the use of infoboxes, but I can see no point to this action than to try to drum up support when the article becomes FA and encourage an editor to move the box to the article space. If an issue has already been discussed it should not be disingenuously reintroduced. It's unacceptable and should be removed from here. [[User:Paul Barlow|Paul B]] ([[User talk:Paul Barlow|talk]]) 21:39, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
::::::As it happens, I strongly favour the use of infoboxes, but I can see no point to this action than to try to drum up support when the article becomes FA and encourage an editor to move the box to the article space. If an issue has already been discussed it should not be disingenuously reintroduced. It's unacceptable and should be removed from here. [[User:Paul Barlow|Paul B]] ([[User talk:Paul Barlow|talk]]) 21:39, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
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I don't see that this 'advice' has any formal validation whatever. It is just one editor's idea, and not a very good one, imo, as it will encourage some smartass to put the ugly column you have created on the main page. So merely placing this here at this time is I'm afraid Gerda uncommonly parallel to a provocative act of bad faith. Don't expect me to smile. --Smerus (talk) 19:37, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I heard "bad faith" before. Nikkimaria who gave this advice, quoting Newyorkbrad, is hardly known to be pro infobox. I think it's a reasonable advice, and I don't know what you mean by the main page. If you mean the article, I know many people who will know to revert. Now I smile, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:50, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, let's sing the song of "bad faith" again. As soon as somebody raises something you don't like, Smerus, it's "bad faith" - even though it's advice that comes from two other respected editors. Nobody's fooled by your mean-spirited attempt to smear Gerda and you ought to be ashamed of yourself. --RexxS (talk) 20:38, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
What an interesting comment! I am delighted that RexxS has found time to divert himself from scuba-diving to consider Wagner. I certainly realise the implications of a 'bad faith' imputation, which I considered carefully, and used here for the first time ever, I believe, on Wikipedia. By asserting, however, that I make this accusation 'as soon as somebody raises something I don't like', and further more by calling me 'mean-spirited' and a 'smear'er, RexxS is adopting precisely the ad hominem arguments he purports to deplore, which perhaps puts his valuable contribution in context. Not, of course, that I am accusing him of bad faith.--Smerus (talk) 10:01, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Smerus, that "ugly column" snark was completely out of line! Per MOS:INFOBOX: "The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article. Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article." Simply raising the issue does not warrant such an ad hominem attack as this. Frankly, I think it's ridiculous that some variant of {{infobox person}} is NOT used in this article. And frankly, I strongly FAVOR having infoboxes in any biography, they are quite suitable. But to the point, if you oppose something, remember WP:NPA and simply state your position without attacking others. Montanabw(talk)21:33, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As it happens, I strongly favour the use of infoboxes, but I can see no point to this action than to try to drum up support when the article becomes FA and encourage an editor to move the box to the article space. If an issue has already been discussed it should not be disingenuously reintroduced. It's unacceptable and should be removed from here. Paul B (talk) 21:39, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As much as I mostly love infoboxes in any other article about some composers, I am unfortunately going to oppose it per WP:COMPOSERS. Also, the use of an infobox for composers like these are mostly contrary to the strategic goals of the Wikimedia Foundation. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 00:07, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As you're obviously fond of ALLCAPLINKS, I'm going to suggest you read WP:LOCALCON which says: "Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. For instance, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope." (and LOCALCON is a policy, btw). The community consensus is documented at MOS:INFOBOX (yes, it's part of the Manual of Style):
"An infobox template is an infobox that uses the template software feature. They are a broad class of templates commonly used in articles to present certain summary or overview information about the subject.
These boxes are designed to be placed into main articles related to the topic area, usually at the top next to the lead section.
...
The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article. Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article.
So, I'm going to suggest that you think again about trying to import a local consensus from a project to usurp a decision that properly belongs to a discussion on this very page. Your argument violates the consensus in both the applicable policy (WP:CON) and guideline (MOS), so you're going to need some pretty strong reasons to defend it.
Please feel free to supply the reference to where the use of infoboxes anywhere is "contrary to the strategic goals" of the WMF. And if you suggest it puts off new editors, I'm going to mock you for unsubstantiated speculation and ask where you got that made-up piece of misinformation from? --RexxS (talk) 01:47, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I read WP:LOCALCON and I understand where you're coming from. So far, the infobox topic has been divided here. If there is a consensus to include an infobox, it may stay, but if there is no consensus, it may not stay. This is a controversial topic indeed. I have obviously expressed concerns about using infoboxes in the past, especially with regards to composers. My contention is that the info box should not go into the article because infoboxes can lead to edit wars between those with pro-infobox and con-infobox and various discussions involving it, as well as numerous RfCs on this matter. These issues have often lead to other issues, especially with the Georg Solti fiasco back in August, which led to Tim riley's temporary retirement and Andy Mabbett's topic ban from editing the TFAs of the day. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:41, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Although I disagree with the way in which Smerus chose to voice his concerns, it seems they have been realized here. I apologize for suggesting the idea. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:08, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with Smerus' assessment of Nikkimaria's advice to propose infoboxes on talk pages rather than adding them to articles without discussing them first. I think Gerda did the right thing. As to the infobox itself: it completely fails as a short summary of Wagner's significance – it is way too big/long. Some details: Cosima's birthname is much more interesting than her married name; some of his grandchildren and great-grandchildren are much more interesting than his children. What's with the bottom link "more details" to Template:Richard Wagner? Lastly, on the way the coding of infoboxes has gone recently: the proliferation of specialised templates like {{Plainlist}}, {{Collapsible list}}, {{Timeline-event}} makes infoxes certainly less accessible and editable to the average editor. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:46, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, my suggestion (and, from the first post here, it would appear Gerda's also) was to post the infobox on talk instead of adding it to the article, rather than before. Smerus' fear appears to be that the former would become the latter. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:12, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@Michael: We need the first two templates so that lists are marked as lists. It's not just infoboxes, of course, as anyone using a screen reader will tell you. I'm sure that Graham87 will say that he's quite comfortable with short lists with commas as separators, but as the list gets longer, marking it up properly lets him hear (if he chooses) something like "List of 8 items: First item: ... (eight items spoken) ... end of list". Some of our lists use <br /> to separate items and that sounds very annoying to continually hear "new line", and as a result that always needs to be changed. So although less experienced editors don't have to learn how to mark up lists to be more accessible - because others can do that for them - they need to understand that blocking efforts to improve accessibility on the encyclopedia really isn't doing a favour to our readers.
@Nikki: Since the purpose of this page is to discuss improvements to this article, I think Smerus has a point, however badly contextualised. I would prefer to use the infobox here to see if it can be used in the article. We can actually chop and change it here and see if we can meet everyone's wishes. Personally, I think it's too big and contains information that doesn't fit with the requirement at MOSINFOBOX: "... keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize key facts in the article in which it appears. The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance. Of necessity, some infoboxes contain more than just a few fields; however, wherever possible, present information in short form, and exclude any unnecessary content." I'd be keen to work with anybody open-minded enough to explore a smaller, leaner version. If at the end, consensus says we don't use it, then so be it. It is possible though that something more palatable to everyone might emerge and be usable. --RexxS (talk) 04:05, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm aware of the advantages of those templates for sight-impaired readers, although I think they may sometimes be overstated. My unqualified use of the word "accessible" was wrong; I meant "more difficult to create or edit", but reading your response, it seems to have been understood that way. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:50, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've been summoned here. :-) Yes, for short lists and/or short list items, commas are fine; plainlist should be used for anything else. The <br/> solution shouldn't be used at all. Graham8709:01, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Trojan Horse, left here, intended for thereOppose/delete infobox from this talk page. This infobox is a Trojan Horse. Until there’s consensus for it to be here on the talk page, I think it should be removed. I'm surprised this 'biobox' issue has been raised again, so soon after the rejected Bach infobox proposal. Definitely not helpful for the project, and discouraging for new/would-be editors. --Kleinzach05:07, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No consensus is required for an editor to post an example such as this on a talk page. Your continued attempts to stifle debate are symptomatic of someone whose arguments have no substance. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits10:37, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for the formal record (assuming I'm allowed to comment whilst cowering from the denunciations of some of the above), and support Kleinzach's proposal to delete box from this page. What on earth, anyway, is the use or point of having an infobox on a talk page as a permanent feature? Not that I wish to start such a discussion here - please take the whole topic away from the Wagner talk page and article.--Smerus (talk) 05:17, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is, or seems meant to carry the weight of, a serious accusation. What has happened is tha an editor has advised relevant WikiProjects of the discussion, which is perfectly appropriate. Other editors are of course free to advise other projects if they feel so moved. Unless anyone is aware of anything that has been done which does not meet the guidelines at Wikipedia:Canvassing, this impugnation should be withdrawn and removed from this page.--Smerus (talk) 08:29, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have notified the related projects — Classical music, Composers and Wagner — about this discussion. Please remember that there is a broad community of editors who have expressed their views on this subject many times in the past. --Kleinzach02:42, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yawn
Same old topic, same old player. Though perhaps it a good thing in this case as a lot of people will check the take page on the FA day and see the mudslinging that keeps happening...but I'm too jaded to think anything positive will actually happen on this front... ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 04:17, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Misunderstanding
Sorry, I changed this back to the original No infobox. I don't know what you are supporting or opposing or yawning about. Infobox on talk was suggested, no more, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:25, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
