Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers

No. 10 Downing Street and so on

Right now we've got

Proper names, technical terms, and the like are never altered: 5 Channel Street;   Channel 5;  Chanel No. 5;  Fourth Judicial District;   Fourth Amendment;   Fourth Estate;   Fourth Republic

-- and that's fine. But what about certain conventional situations that aren't proper names e.g.

Along the south side of X street are No. 123, where Historical Personage died, and No. 137, where Infamous Killer lured his victims.

-- ? In English usage, at least, reference to Number. 123 or No. 123 are conventional -- do we require the text to say Number 123 every time, or is No. 123 OK here?

In older American usage you see that some time, but nowadays (it is my impression) it's more common to write "at 123 was This, and at nearby 137 was That."

Anyway... thoughts on writing "No. 123"? EEng (talk) 10:13, 29 June 2014 (UTC) Bump EEng (talk) 04:08, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

What's happened to all the MOS warriors?

has the fire gone out? Can't I get a peep re the above? EEng (talk) 18:11, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't know if this will be much help, but as a Briton, I can tell you what I do myself. I personally use the numero sign, as in № 10 Downing Street. I do speak the "number" allowed. I personally would advocate for using the numero sign, as opposed to "number", which is never written out as far as I know. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the American usage of "123 Such and Such Road" started seeping in, and I've certainly heard "10 Downing Street" being used occasionally on BBC News reports in recent years, whereas they would've previously said "№ 10". RGloucester — ☎ 22:16, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

If "No." is the common usage, I'd say keep it unaltered. For a Canadian example (though not related to a street), Leduc No. 1. Resolute 22:48, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

• If it's the world according to MOS you seek, your answer is here: MOS:NUMBERSIGN. Oddly, it's not found or referenced on the "Manual of Style/Dates and Numbers," but on the first page of "Wikipedia:Manual of Style." I edit a lot of sports articles and the number abbreviation rules come up a lot as many sports fans want to insert the number sign symbol (#) directly into text, which is a no-no. I had to go looking for the specific MOS section, and was a little surprised to find it elsewhere than on the MOS numbers subpage. Cheers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:45, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

I was aware of NUMBERSIGN though I couldn't remember where it was. Leduc No. 1 is covered under the proper names rule. I guess what I was wondering was whether the flat prohibition on No. might be relaxed in this situation where convention strongly endorses it i.e. "house numbers", such as in the examples above, for times and places where that was the convention. The weird thing is I had an actual article situation when I posed the question, but I can't even remember what it is now! I don't know... I do think this usage should be allowed. Anyone want to propose text? EEng (talk) 02:55, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

WP:DATED

...gives the example "Humans diverged from apes long ago, but only recently developed fire." One plausible theory is that cooking developed first, then homo erectus and eventually humans. See Catching Fire: How Cooking Made Us Human. There must be a better analogy. Aymatth2 (talk) 01:36, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

I changed the example to Humans diverged from apes long ago, but only recently developed state legislatures. EEng (talk) 04:18, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Good one. Aymatth2 (talk) 11:19, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, though there's evidence that legislatures developed first, before man split from apes. EEng (talk) 14:17, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

We didn't split from apes. We are apes. We split from chimp/bonobos. Jimp 03:36, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

OK, smartypants. Please fix the example. ("Diverged from other apes"?) EEng (talk) 04:14, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Fractions vs decimals in imperial units

Many moons ago I wrote articles converting cm to inches with fractions - such as in Banksia ericifolia - and felt more comfortable doing this. Somewhere along the way I passively and not unhappily went along with using decimals of inches, such as in current FAC Epacris impressa. Someone else has stated they prefer the fractions. I can't see anything in MOS or MOS archives about this...has this been discussed before and do we have a consensus? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:44, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

The "moons" is not a MOS-conpliant chronological unit, so you'll need to repost before we can start arguing about this.

For years, a strict reading of MOSNUM did not allow any standard time measurement longer than a day, so think yourself lucky. Kahastok talk 21:55, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't have information on that, but have some observations. Banksia ericifolia has:

9–20 mm (⅓–¾ in)

MOS:FRAC says to use {{frac}}:

9–20 mm (1⁄3–3⁄4 in)

Ideally {{convert}} should be used so future editors don't have to wonder if the conversions are correct or have been changed. However, convert can only handle one value of fraction in the output, although it will reduce the fraction if appropriate:

• {{convert|9-20|mm|abbr=on}} → 9–20 mm (0.35–0.79 in) (this line is to show the values)
• {{convert|9-20|mm|abbr=on|frac=4}} → 9–20 mm (1⁄4–3⁄4 in)
• {{convert|9-20|mm|abbr=on|frac=8}} → 9–20 mm (3⁄8–3⁄4 in)

A problem with fractions is that they are pretty crude as far as conveying information regarding precision, although for this context precision is not appropriate. I find going from 1⁄3 to 3⁄4 to require too much mental effort—it's hard to compare the values. Johnuniq (talk) 11:01, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Defending the fractional way of life against creeping decimalization

The benefit of fractions with imperial units is that the units themselves are not decimally-based, so the subdivisions are very often give awkward decimals. 4.1 feet is not a nice number of inches. 5.2 pounds is not a convenient number of ounces. But in those situations the best solution is to use the subdivision explicitly (e.g. 4 ft 2 in).

As to divisions of units like inches, ounces, that don't have a standard subdivisions, fractions are probably more traditional and decimals may look wrong to some - but may be clearer to others. Personally, I don't have a strong preference either way. Kahastok talk 21:55, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

• If you read WP:UNIT, you'll see that mixed units are preferred for the imperial system. Fractions should be used, as the system is not a decimal system. Mixed units, like "5ft 2in", should be preferred. In instances where there is no commonly used smaller unit, like with the ounce, use fractions. Imperial units don't make sense, frankly, when put into decimals. That's not how they were meant to be used. RGloucester — ☎ 22:00, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

• I'm not sure about all cases of this question, but if the inches (as in the example) are a parenthetical conversion from a measurement given in the source in decimal (obviously) millimeters, then I think the inches should be in decimal as well. I certainly see decimal inches in some engineering contexts (though sometimes they're obviously modernizations of fractions, as e.g. a 1.125-inch bolt) and for the scientific context of the OP that seems right too. But I don't have this clearly thought out. EEng (talk) 22:13, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Are we using : or * for each comment? It started out as colons.

Some readers like imperial measurements and these readers nearly always think fractions are quite natural. Other readers prefer metric measurements and these readers nearly always prefer decimals. I don't come across many people who like imperial measurements with decimals and I don't come across many people who like metric measurements with fractions. Also, when we use a measurement on WP we should make it agree with the source reference. Some fractions like ⁠9+1/2⁠ can easily be converted to a decimal like 9.5 but some like ⁠9+1/3⁠ either lose precision by converting to a shortened decimal like 9.3 or gain unwarranted precision as 9.3333333333333 (typically measured with a tool that is accurate to only a few decimal places). Luckily we {{convert}} which is happy to deal with imperial fractions and decimal metric units. Readers who have trouble with imperial fractions can just ignore them and look at the decimal metric units. Similarly, readers who never quite made the transition to metric can ignore the metric units and just read the familiar imperial fractions. Both sides are happy and can ignore the other side.  Stepho  talk  01:55, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Peaceful coexistence is for pussies. There should be a fight to submission, so that one approach becomes the glorified master and the other the despised slave. EEng (talk) 02:59, 24 July 2014 (UTC) P.S. I've been spending time at Did You Know, where for some reason they all use * on everything. I'm afraid I've become infected.

Kilowatt-hour

• This is prompted by a discussion at Template talk:Convert#Kilowatt-hour.

{{convert}} provides two units for kilowatt-hour; one is for "common usage", while the other outputs the correct middle dot per WP:UNIT. Examples:

• {{convert|123|kWh|abbr=on}} → 123 kWh (440 MJ)
• {{convert|123|kW.h|abbr=on}} → 123 kW⋅h (440 MJ)

Kilowatt hour asserts 'The symbol "kWh" is most commonly used in commercial, educational, scientific and media publications'—including "scientific" might be overdoing it, but the others are correct in my experience. Given that kWh is commonly used, what should be the output from convert? Should the above example using kWh give the same output as kW.h? Or should it be up to the editor to decide which to use?

The only discussion I can find is at 2008 MOSNUM. In May 2014 there were 61 converts using kWh in 36 articles, and none using kW.h. I prefer that convert gives the editor the choice of how the output should appear, and I support the principle that Wikipedia should follow real life rather than lead it. However, if a strong consensus wants the middle dot, that's fine too. Johnuniq (talk) 07:32, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I have just noticed that several energy units have been carefully designed to allow the editor to either insert a middot or not.

No middot: µWh mWh Wh kWh MWh GWh TWh

With middot: µW.h mW.h W.h kW.h MW.h GW.h TW.h

I wonder if Jimp would like to explain the history. Johnuniq (talk) 08:15, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• Just to echo here my arguments from the preceding discussion: consistency (among units and with standards) is more important; the claim about "real-life" usage has not been supported by studies.
  And, in fact, my point was that conversion to kilowatt-hours ({{convert|123|MJ|abbr=on}}) should produce "kW·h" instead of "kWh". — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 07:57, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Re {{convert|123|MJ|abbr=on}}: That's just a matter of specifying the output unit (|kW.h), or changing the default output unit for MJ and friends. Johnuniq (talk) 08:15, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
    • The default output should be according to MOS (with "·"). I doubt that the dot-less output is needed (that is, I think that both "xWh" and "xW.h" parameters should produce "xW·h"). — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 08:28, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• Another thought is that some people actually misunderstand "kWh" as "kilowatt per hour" (similarly to "psi", which is "pound per square inch"), whereas with "kW·h" the meaning is clear. — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 08:09, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Those people do not even know what the dot means. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 08:38, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
• kWh is by far the most common usage (even in scientific papers), so it should remain the default. The concatenated unit has the same meaning as the dotted unit anyway; they both represent a factored unit. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 08:38, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
  • No! For example, "m·s" means "meter-second", but "ms" means "millisecond". Please read WP:UNITS, the standards and the previous discussions. — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 09:58, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
    • "ms" is not a concatenation but a prefix. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 10:47, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
      • Both kW h and kW·h are correct symbols for kilowatt hour. By contrast, kWh, while sometimes used as an abbreviation, is not a correct symbol. MOSNUM should promulgate correct use (kW h or kW·h). Dondervogel 2 (talk) 10:52, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
• Statements such as "KWh is not a correct symbol" misunderstand what we're doing here. kWh is not a formal scientific symbol, but like it or not it's the long-established convention, in authoritative sources, for topics such as e.g. Electric energy consumption, and articles on those topics should (even must) follow that usage. Thus convert and other templates must offer kWh as an option, along with the other two -- purists who happen to be tinkering with the template must not impose their views on what should be, instead of what is (in reliable sources, that is). EEng (talk) 15:12, 29 July 2014 (UTC) P.S. Wikipedia does not "promulgate" any usage, correct or incorrect; it strives to reflect the usage of reliable sources, giving preference to the best sources in any given topic area.
  • I did not mention Wikipedia. Only MOSNUM. Surely the purpose of MOSNUM is to promulgate a uniform practice throughout Wikipedia? If not that, what else? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 15:27, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I misunderstood you -- thought you meant WP "promulgating" to the wider world, as in trying to set a good example of ideal usage. I see now you mean MOS setting an example/giving guidance to WP editors. Yes, that's what MOS is for, but again, what MOS promulgates is what's used in reliable sources, and that varies from field to field. So, as mentioned, while in a physics papers you'd see kW{{middot}h or kW h, in a discussion of consumer energy conservation you'd see kWh. EEng (talk) 18:25, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I have also seen KWH used on utility bills. I'm not sure I have ever seen any extra characters added. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:48, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

"KWH" in bills is probably a dark legacy of ancient printers that did not have any glyphs except numbers ans capital letters. :–) — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 23:53, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• Above it is asserted that many scientific publications use kWh. I can't say I read any scientific publications devoted to electric power generation and distribution. However, the IEEE has several publications devoted to this area including IEEE Transactions on Power Apparatus and Systems, IEEE Transactions on Power Delivery, and IEEE Transactions on Power Systems. The IEEE provides "Preparation of Papers for IEEE TRANSACTIONS and JOURNALS" (April 2013). That publication on page 2 states "Use the center dot to separate compound units, e.g., 'A·m2.'" I suggest this indicates that one of the largest scientific publishers in this field has chosen middle dots, therefore, if WP:MOS does the same, it is not pushing a novel or marginally accepted practice. I would like to see WP:MOS continue to recommend the choices recognized in official standards, that is, the middle dot or the space. Of course, articles should follow WP:MOS except when WP:IAR applies. I take the comment by Dondervogel 2 at 15:27, 29 July 2014 (UTC) to mean that Wikipedia articles should not contain statements that widely used language is incorrect, but that does not mean that Wikipedia articles should use such language if it does not conform to the language used in the best sources. Jc3s5h (talk) 16:50, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

You're wasting your time arguing whether kWh is or isn't used in scientific papers. It clearly is in sources such as discussions of consumer energy consumption, national energy policy, etc., and articles on those topics will therefore use it. Speaking of IEEE, here for example is IEEE's own "Smart Grid Forum" [1] -- a bit bloggish, but still clearly IEEE-sponsored (and IEEE is very careful about its publishing standards) using -- ta ha! -- kWh with no dot and not space. You're focused on standards for the highest-level, most formal journals, and that isn't appropriate for all articles.

If the question on the table is, What should the convert template to, the answer is that it must off dot, space, and no-dot-no-space as output options. If the question is, what should articles use, I think we should leave that to editors of individual articles. If and when it appears that there's a recurring issue that wastes editors' time, that would be the time to think about adding something to MOS. EEng (talk) 18:25, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

The piece cited by EEng as an example fails. Doug Houseman or his copy editor can't even get the capitalization of units and symbols right. Jc3s5h (talk) 19:53, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

It seems to me that the question is whether MOSNUM should promulgate good practice or common practice. In my opinion it is good practice that should prevail. I see a clear parallel with Mbps vs Mbit/s, where the latter is recommended by MOSNUM because it is the internationally agreed symbol, and therefore unambiguous. The same logic applies here. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 20:08, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

That's not a very good parallel because there is no division in kWh. No-one who understands basic algebra would insert a division there would they? I've never seen it with a centre dot here in the UK. Even the article that we cite in our Kilowatt hour article as evidence of confusion uses kWh without a dot or space. Dbfirs 20:44, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

There are many instances of less-than-ideal usage which are not bad enough to create confusion, such as irregardless or "I could care less." That's no reason to encourage such less-than-ideal usage. There is also the danger that someone who is familiar with the meaning of "kWh" but not familiar with some other compound unit symbol may use "kWh" as an exemplar to decide how to (incorrectly) construct the symbol for the other unit. Jc3s5h (talk) 21:06, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Crikey, will you get a clue? OK, tell me that the Lawrence Berkeley Lab is sloppy and unreliable as well [2] This is as hopeless a quest as were earlier attempts to get mpg in articles about automobiles changed to miles/gallon. Forget it. You're wasting everyone's time. EEng (talk) 22:03, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I can tell you that people at LBNL are not better than in other places, and thus it is not surprising that the draft that you refer to is not something to rely upon (besides "kWh", it is typographically disgusting in many respects). — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 23:41, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

You're wasting yours and everyone else's time EEng (talk) 03:28, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Well, "psi" and "scfm" have an invisible division in them. :–) As I pointed above, the kilowatt-hour article even mentions the "kilowatt per hour" confusion explicitly, so this problem is not so illusory. — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 10:50 pm, Today (UTC−4)

"kWh" is the only way I have ever seen it in the electric utility industry or in news articles. The pattern is the same with Wh, MWh, GWh, and TWh, not to mention similar units like kVA and MVA. I am unable to recall the last time I have seen "kW h" or "kW·h" in a utility industry communication or in a news article; I suspect that I may never have seen the units written that way, in many thousands of occurrences. Call it original research if you like, but you would be hard-pressed to show even a tiny minority of sources using anything other than "kWh". Offering the dotted option in the convert template is a kindness to pedantic editors and wikiprojects that dictate a specific style for units, but widespread use of the dotted option on Wikipedia would be contrary to the vast majority of real-world usage. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:36, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Agree with Jonesey above, with most of my work in energy-related projects, "kWh" is near universal, and even "kW-hr" will have wider usage than "kW(dot)h". Our article on the unit of "kilowatt-hours" can explain the proper units, but for any other case, we should be using the most recognized units. --MASEM (t) 03:52, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Please keep in mind that "communications or news articles" are oriented on plain-text typesetting, and they used to be authored on regular typewriters that simply lacked the interpunct symbol. For the same reason there are no equations, for example. Here we don't have such technical limitations, so why not to follow the standards? Especially, since this would be totally free: just type {{convert|...}} and get the perfect results! — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 04:34, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

You're not listening. Different topic areas use different symbols. One of them is kWh. Stop wasting everyone's time. EEng (talk) 04:48, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

EEng, I was replying to Jonesey95. Please do not change the indent level of other users' comments. — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 05:18, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Mikhail, I'm replying to you. Stop wasting everyone's time. EEng (talk) 05:21, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Regarding the history of why when the unit was added to {{convert}} the option of the dotless abbreviation was given, I don't completely remember the specifics (it was almost seven years ago) but this must have been before MOSNUM had anything to say about it and given that "kWh" is so common I guess including it must just have made sense. If I were adding the unit to the template now, though, I'd probably comply with MOSNUM and wouldn't give the dotless option. So, do we fix the template or the guideline? My preference would be for uniformity as opposed to making an ad hoc exception for watt-hours. There are plenty of abbreviations in use out there that we don't allow. If we were to take an anything-goes approach, why have a MOS at all? Jimp 14:18, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

By including kWh as an option we are complying with MOS, because what MOS says is Unit names and symbols should follow the practice of reliable sources, and as abundantly demonstrated above, in some subject areas RSs use kWh. I point out that MOS' guidance "Indicate a product of unit symbols with & middot; or & nbsp;" is part of a table headed "General guidelines", not "Rigid restrictions". So far this debate has gone on at the convert template's talk page, and here on MOS, but -- tellingly -- AFAIK not in the context of any actual articles. This is a solution in search of a problem. In fact, to put an end to this I make the following proposal:

Regardless of the niche usages of the "kWh" notation, conversion from MJ to kW·h implies that the main units in the particular article are the SI units, so the result of the conversion should also be formatted according to the SI rules. — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 10:33 pm, Today (UTC−4)

This is ridiculous. If -- as is obvious from the below will happen -- kWh is endorsed as an option (along with kW h and kW·h), then the output of convert will need to offer kWh as an option (along with kW h and kW·h) for its output. You're trying to use the machinery of convert as a back-door way to force people to insert a space or dot in kWh (at least when they use convert). WP:STICK EEng (talk) 03:37, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Proposal

Add to WP:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#Specific_units, in the Energy section, a new row as follows: kilowatt-hour ... kWh / MWh / GWh ... Where reliable sources in a given subject area (such as energy supply and consumption) do so, the symbols kWh, MWh, GWh (with no space) are used in place of (for example) the formal kW h (i.e. with space) or kW·h.

• Support. EEng (talk) 16:43, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
• Support, suggest to also add MWh and GWh (but no others) as common usage when you start talking power plants. Other magnitudes of "watt hours" typically are otherwise not used frequently enough to require this. (I rearely see TWh used, usually that gets spelled out better, for example) --MASEM (t) 16:58, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Added MWh and GWh to the proposal. I left it intentionally ambiguous as to Wh since, really, it's use in RS that controls, so just let editors figure that out if it comes up somewhere. EEng (talk) 17:12, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

I guess I wanted to make sure it was clear it was only to their specific decimations of the Watt-hour unit. I could see someone trying to argue mWr (milliwatt-hr) as the "right" unit display, though at that magnitude, the units typically switch over to joules. The three listed as explicitly the only prefix-ified versions of "watt-hour" that would be acceptable due to their common usage). --MASEM (t) 00:03, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

So you're OK with the wording? EEng (talk) 00:26, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes. --MASEM (t) 01:24, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose because the proper symbol will not confuse those familiar with the proper way of writing metric units, but the incorrect symbol may very well confuse those who are just learning to write metric symbols correctly. Also "kW-h" is wrong. Jc3s5h (talk) 17:01, 30 July 2014 (UTC), sentence struck in response to change in proposal at 18:30 UT.

• It's not wrong. It's not consistent with how other units typically are written, no question, but its an artifact of how the energy/power industry worldwide use the symbols. --MASEM (t) 17:09, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Oops. Fixed hyphen to middot. Jc's reasoning would be an argument for changing mpg to miles per gallon in articles on cars, and converting all articles to American English. Wikipedia follows reliable sources in whatever subject area is being treated. EEng (talk) 17:12, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose, for the same reason as Jc3s5h, and because in the absence of a good reason not to, it makes sense for MOSNUM to follow international standards. Precisely the same reasoning as for nmi (nautical mile), kn (knot) and bit/s (bit per second). If you follow widespread use why doesn't MOSNUM advocate use of nm, kt and bps for those units. I am not aware of an internationally agreed symbol for mpg, which makes it a poor counter-example. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 18:12, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

I can't speak for knots and so on, but the reason bps is a no-no is that its a well-known source of confusion because of its bits-bytes ambiguity. Your fetishizing of "international standards" is a red herring. We follow the sources in each topic area, not "international standards" (unless that's what the sources follow).

Tell you what. Why don't you go change all the uses of kWh at Electricity meter, Emission standard, Energy density , Cost of electricity by source , Feed-in tariff , Financial incentives for photovoltaics , Feed-in tariffs in Germany , Energy in the United States , Solar power, Solar power in Massachusetts and see the reaction. Then come back and let us know. EEng (talk) 18:51, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

I did do that once. For kilotonnes (kt) and nanometers (nm) I mean. Before I learnt of the existence of mosnum, I changed them one by one to knots (kn) and nautical miles (nmi). I encountered lots of resistance of the kind you anticipate, from editors who preferred kilotonnes and nanometres. International standards are sources in their own right, of a kind, and the most reliable sources follow them. When I discovered mosnum I found an easier way. Make a good case here, and others will follow. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 20:14, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

You did that once for some other units, but not for kWh. You can't keep saying that "the most reliable" sources use certain terms when we've clearly shown that there are perfectly good sources that use a different term. Here are more: [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] Now go start a discussion at Cost of electricity by source -- see what kind of laugh you get. EEng (talk) 20:45, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

The place to make the case is not in individual articles, but here in mosnum. And that is what I am doing. I agree that use of kW h is rare (which just means that reliable sources are rare), but I see no advantage in departing from a perfectly simple multiplication rule that is easy to explain and easy to understand. Use of the correct symbol would also make it easier to understand that kW h is a product of kilowatt and hour. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 21:40, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Now you're showing that you really have the wrong end of the stick. Ultimately these decisions are made on a case-by-case basis in articles -- that's why MOS is a guideline. And we don't add a new "rule" to MOS unless it's clear that editors in individual articles are wasting time rehashing the same old issues. What's being proposed here isn't a rule but an "anti-rule", reaffirming, specifically in the case of kilowatt-hours, that editors of each article should follow the notation of RS in that topic area. EEng (talk) 22:39, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

You are entitled to your view. I am entitled to mine. Can we agree to disagree? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 22:54, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

That would have a much more appealing ring to it if you weren't advocating dictating, to editors of articles you have no interest in, that they write those articles in a certain way that serves your sense of symmetry and order, even when the sources in the topic area do it another way. EEng (talk) 23:03, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

First, MOSNUM is a guideline - editors can choose to follow that guideline or not; second it is not my sense of symmetry that matters here, but the consensus of editors on MOSNUM. It seems we cannot agree even to disagree :P Dondervogel 2 (talk) 06:36, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

No, in general editors are expected to follow MOS, though MOS itself allows for "occasional exceptions" in accord with "common sense". I agree your sense of symmetry doesn't matter here -- I didn't say it did. EEng (talk) 06:56, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

"use of kW h is rare" because the vast majority of reliable sources do not use it. – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:57, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

• "dpi" is another example like mpg, then, we don't use "dots/inch". --MASEM (t) 18:19, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

• Support. as it supports common usage, whatever the rights or wrongs most reader would think that any other form is a mistake. MilborneOne (talk) 23:00, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
• Support. spare us from ugly unneeded dots.Constant314 (talk) 23:05, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, and dots aren't recyclable and are a major cause of climate change. EEng (talk) 23:36, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. If you really want to use the non-standard notation, at least change the wording from the prescriptive "are used in place of" to a permissive "can be used". — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 03:38, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

You're still confused. The standard notation is whatever is standard in the topic area a given article treats -- you want one particular source to be the "standard" for everything. What the proposal says is

Where reliable sources in a given subject area do so, the symbols kWh, MWh, GWh are used ...

And the reason it says that is MOSNUM's general provision that Unit names and symbols should follow the practice of reliable sources. We follow the practice of sources in the topic area. EEng (talk) 05:55, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Kilowatt is a SI unit, hour is accepted for use with the SI, so the appearance of "kW·h" is governed by the SI standards. If you can find a different "standard in the topic area", we can consider it to be more important, otherwise — rely on SI. The argument of "practice" is flawed, since it does not tell what to do if different "reliable" sources use different notation ("kWh", "KWH", "kW·h", "kW-hr", whatever)? — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 10:41 pm, Today (UTC−4)

[With what I hope will be the permission of my esteemed fellow editors, the following has been converted to a comment from a (pseudo-)subsection so as not to confuse where further comments/supports/opposes should go -- EEng (talk)]

• Comment EEng has diverted this discussion from the topic on the {{convert}} template to advocating the "alternative" notation in MOS. I suggest splitting his/her "proposal" into a separate topic and continuing here the original thread (which is related to conversion between different units, not to a particular unit itself). — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 03:38, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

oh oh ... Mikhail, Ohconfucius appears to have removed this because it may impute wrongdoing to EEng without much evidence of it (as far as I can see). You've reverted it back in. Well, you're entitled to do that, but does it assist calm, clear debate? Please assume good faith, and remember that this page is subject to DS. Best. Tony (talk) 04:49, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Changing MOSNUM is a legitimate question on its own, but it is not directly related to the {{convert}} questions. I believe, separating these two topics will promote clearer debates (for example, where people are supposed to put their comments about the original topic now?). I do not know how to do this split correctly, so I asked for the help from more experienced users. — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 05:14, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

You seem to have forgotten that this is the MOS talk page. So we're having a MOS discussion. EEng (talk) 05:55, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

• Support original proposal. The MOS is not a voluntary set of guidelines; it's a style manual. Editors can follow it or not as they choose when creating text but must not undo changes made later to ensure consistency with the MOS. So MOSNUM should explicitly say that the commonly used forms like "kWh" are permitted. Peter coxhead (talk) 07:56, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose for consistency and simplicity. We don't have to follow whatever we see out there. Jimp 11:50, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, we do, as the next two Supports explain. It's only when there's a conflict between sources of comparable authoritativeness (in the field) that we make a choice of our own. EEng (talk) 16:00, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

• Support - The first bullet point of the MOS says, "Unit names and symbols should follow the practice of reliable sources." The proposal is simply codifying this. There are few sources that use the delicately punctuated versions. There is no significant ambiguity with the proposed symbols. ~KvnG 14:49, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

"Delicately punctuated" is certainly the right phrase. EEng (talk) 16:20, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

• Support per Peter coxhead. It's a bit like MB and MiB: it makes no sense to have more than one ways of expressing kWh – the other different forms are hardly ever used in RL, and may confuse readers. -- Ohc ^¡digame! 15:51, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Just to be clear, the proposal doesn't mandate using kWh (no space, no dot) exclusively, since I'm sure there are e.g. physics contexts in which space or dot is used. Rather, the proposal makes it clear that kWh is an acceptable choice, when it's what sources in the field use. EEng (talk) 16:00, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I think what we are discussing is whether one should use the symbol kW h or the abbreviation for that symbol kWh. I see no good reason not to use the symbol myself, but my opposition to use of the abbreviation is based on the desirability of clarity. The analogy with MB vs MiB is not a good one because MB and MiB are symbols that mean different things, and to use MB when you mean MiB is clearly incorrect. To use kWh when you mean kW h is not wrong, just an unnecessary barrier to clear communication. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 06:36, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support. I would like to see scientific references which use "kW·h" or "kW h", especially since the SI unit would be 3.6 MJ. I would think, in fact, that kWh should be the lead abbreviation in kilowatt hour, per actual use. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:17, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
• Support Per common use, no we don't have to follow whatever we see in real life but we are writing an encyclopedia to be readily understood by as many of our readers as possible. Given that the majority of sources use it and most of our readers would be familiar with it is precisely why we should be using it. We should never use an abstract, unfamiliar form. WCM_email 22:23, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

• Comment Believe it or not, this discussion now has its very own ANI thread! Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:EEng EEng (talk) 04:09, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support as "kWh" is so prevalent in literature directed towards general and technical readers, while as noted by others J is preferred in much scientific literature. For information, checking some favourite print compendia of definitions, conversions and values I found "kWh" (Perry's Chemical Engineers Handbook, 6th edn, 1973, McGraw-Hill, Table 1-4 Conversion Factors; Larousse Dictionary of Science and Technology - previously published as Chambers (UK) or Cambridge (US), 1995, Larousse), "kw h" (BS350:Part 1:1974 Conversion factors and tables, British Standards Institution, 1974 (1998), p58; CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 68th edn, 1987, CRC Press, pF-245), and spaces used in other units but no example of "kW h" (Tables of Physical and Chemical Constants, Kaye & Laby, Longman, 15th ed, 1986), but no examples of "kW.h". NebY (talk) 11:58, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose I don't see what's so difficult about "write metric units according to the SI convention"; there is no need to invent different rules for every unit (what is the rule for newton-metres? what about joule-seconds? etc.) and following convention promotes consistency, which aids intelligibility. If some people don't understand SI convention, that is not our responsibility. Ultimately the BIPM is the only authority on how unit notation should work; WP editors should not presume to know better than the organisation that maintains the standards. Archon 2488 (talk) 13:47, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support A few contributors here feel that "exactitude" is more important than readability. Most reader's monthly electric bill will use kwh (with various forms of capitalization). The US Federal Energy Regulatory Commission uses KWh in their regulations.[8] The term "kW•h" will be unfamiliar to most readers and confusing to math majors trying to figure out why we are using a dot product in a unit of measure. We should not punish readers because they have never heard of "SI" units. Wikipedia should use the terminology that is in widespread use; not obscure terms from some standards committee. -- SWTPC6800 (talk) 22:03, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it's fair to describe the world's most important standards organisation, which is responsible for defining the SI units (and thereby, in effect, all others), together with the standard notation for using them, as "some ... committee". Archon 2488 (talk) 15:09, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

SI may be an "important standards organisation" but some of their units are not widely used in publications targeted at the general public. Wikipedia articles targeted at the general public and should not be full of elitist terminology. (Some SI units are widely ignored in the technical press.) -- SWTPC6800 (talk) 16:31, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for an example from federal regulations! However, the heading of that document says "Unofficial", ;–) and it merely describes some changes in other documents. Could you please find the actual official documents? (I'm also suspicious about the apparently interchangeable usage of "power" and "energy" in their language.) Regarding "unfamiliar and confusing" — aren't the dot notation for multiplication and the multiplication of units included in the school curriculum in English-speaking countries? — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 01:13, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

"exactitude" -- SWTPC6800 (talk) 02:14, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

"We should not punish readers because they have never heard of "SI" units." If someone has heard of a kilowatt-hour, then they have heard of an SI unit (or at least, one of the SI's "addon" units). As Mikhail says above, the dot denotes scalar multiplication, and the product of two scalar physical dimensions is indeed a scalar product. I don't see how this is confusing. Even the idea behind omitting the space is that the multiplication is implicit, as in algebraic expressions like "2y". The question is simply which notation is the less ambiguous. Archon 2488 (talk) 12:34, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment It think it's worth noting that not a single actual document or paper has been presented so far using anything other than kWh. EEng (talk) 03:51, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

• Because people advocating the consistency and standard-compliance understand that solitary examples are insufficient to make any conclusions about the general situation. Moreover, the existence of general standards (mentioned several times above) means that anything special about particular units is simply unnecessary. If you want to see something country-specific, here are some US-related documents:

• Federal Register notice of May 16, 2008, 73 FR 28432-28433. Interpretation of the International System of Units for the United States PDF,
• U.S. Metric System (SI) Legal Resources and references therein.

People from other places can probably provide similar documents. If you claim something different, please provide the corresponding style guides or at least a reliable study about the "real-world usage" (so far, only poorly formatted texts have been presented as a supporting evidence). — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 04:45, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

None of the documents you linked appear to contain the string kw so I don't see what they have to do with this at all. I repeat that you've never pointed to even a single use of kW-dot-h or kW-space-h. Not one. Just a lot of "standards" apparently implying dots or spaces ought to be used, but no evidence anyone actually obeys that. EEng (talk) 05:38, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment So here's sumtin' really interesting -- NIST's Rules and Style Conventions for Printing and Using Units. It says

Reference [4: ISO 31-0] suggests that if a space is used to indicate units formed by multiplication, the space may be omitted if it does not cause confusion. This possibility is reflected in the common practice of using the symbol kWh rather than kW·h or kW h for the kilowatt hour. Nevertheless, this Guide takes the position that a half-high dot or a space should always be used to avoid possible confusion

So there you have it. NIST says don't use kWh; ISO says it's OK (and so does APS [9]). The problem with appeals to the authority of standards bodies is that, contrary to what some seem to think, there is no one controlling standards body and, as just seen, they disagree. We use what workers in the field actually use, not what someone says they ought to use.

I think the arguments on both sides have been thoroughly ventilated now, and it's time for a close based on the strength of those arguments. Anyone? EEng (talk) 05:38, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Congratulations, you have finally found reliable sources! :–) Just to supplement your comment, the NIST quote continues:

...; for this same reason, only one of these two allowed forms should be used in any given manuscript.

(it is not clear whether this passage is about "kWh" or all units). And a small note: ISO 31-0:1992 was superseded with ISO 80000-1. Do you know whether the "suggestion" mentioned by NIST is still there? It would be interesting to see the actual wording. — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 07:03, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean by "finally" -- if you think the other sources, to which I and several other editors have linked before now, aren't reliable then you don't know what a reliable source is. Anyway, I'll be happy to extend similar congratulations to you in return when you adduce even one source -- even one -- that actually uses the dot or space forms. EEng (talk) 07:41, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

I can offer you a source that uses a space if you want, but we all know such sources are rare, so I don't think it changes anything. I have stated before on this page that MOSNUM should follow international standards unless it has a good reason not to. This applies not just for the kilowatt hour, but for all units. I will look up the precise wording of ISO 80000-1:2009 on multiplication of units. Watch this space. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 08:19, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

• This search gives several hits for "kW h". I will look op iso 80000-1 next. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 08:25, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
• The relevant text from ISO 80000-1:2009 reads

A compound unit formed by multiplication of two or more units shall be indicated in one of the following ways:

N • m, N m

NOTE The latter form may also be written without a space, i.e. Nm, provided that special care is taken when the symbol for one of the units is the same as the symbol for a prefix. This is the case for m, metre and milli, and for T, tesla and tera.

While the wording could be clearer, I infer from this that kWh is a valid symbol for kilowatt hour and I withdraw my objection to the proposal to use it. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 08:30, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

There's hope for you yet! EEng (talk) 08:54, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I consider the previously given sources unreliable. But the NIST quote refers to a standard and says "common practice" — that's all I asked for.

Taking into account the ISO 80000-1:2009 text and the NIST comment, I suggest extending your proposal with this kind of more general wording (for example, "mAh" should be included; maybe there are other such units) and these references. It also needs to address the consistency issues, so that "kWh" or "kW·h" must be used consistently within an article (I don't know whether is it desirable to demand consistency with other units, for example, that "N·m" and "kWh" should not be used within one article). I think, it would be a much more reasonable approach. — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 22:27, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support per common use. It is not uncommon to concatinate factored units in general, and in math it is done all the time; (a · x) becomes (ax), etc. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 09:01, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but in the case of units these concatenations can lead to ambiguities such as ms^-1. But in fairness, there is only one way to parse "kWh" in terms of the SI unit symbols, even if it's not really correct SI, so it's less important. Archon 2488 (talk) 15:09, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment. I will guess that some of the advocates of little-known SI units have never explained a new technology to an audience with mixed backgrounds. The key to success is to use terms the audience knows, not to impress them with technobabble. Wikipedia has an audience with a wide range of backgrounds. A reader with a Masters of Business Administration may want to read about power generation, they should not have to research the units. I am sure the financial community has some really esoteric terms from important standards originations that we could use to explain the cost of power production. -- SWTPC6800 (talk) 17:46, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

• The goal of consistent ways of making compound units in SI is to make it easier for people from different fields to understand unfamiliar units, because everyone writes them the same way. But since Americans are willfully ignorant of SI, the goal isn't fully achieved. Jc3s5h (talk) 19:09, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

And so it begins... EEng (talk) 19:23, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

The point remains: nobody has explained how promoting inconsistency allows for greater intelligibility. If you stick with the BIPM standards and try to understand them, rather than just assuming the BIPM consists of a crowd of best-ignored inbred scientists and engineers who do nothing other than engage in intellectual masturbation, then you will understand the motivation for using consistent mathematical notation. Disambiguation. Precision. Unambiguity. But all of this is of second-rate importance compared to the goal of pandering to the innumerate. Archon 2488 (talk) 20:12, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

• "Nobody has explained how promoting inconsistency allows for greater intelligibility." Explanation: An article can't be consistent with everything, so choices must be made, and Wikipedia's choice is to value the intelligibility gained by consistency between a given article and external literature on the same topic, more than it values the intelligibility gained by consistency between that article and other articles on other topics.
• Since you bring it up, since BIPM stands for Best-Ignored Perfectionist Masturbators (formerly BIISE -- Best-Ignored Inbred Scientists and Engineers) what did you expect? I really think it would be for the best if someone closes this discussion before the inevitable comparisons to Nazis make their debut.

EEng (talk) 21:46, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Why is the world's most important metrology organisation "best-ignored" in discussions about measurements? Is that not like saying that the IPCC is best ignored on questions of climatology, or that the UN is a marginal group of political masurbators? In what other context would this level of disregard for major international organisations be accepted? Archon 2488 (talk) 22:45, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

• oppose MOS instruction creep. I am opposing both the previous proposal, of using the convert template to enforce the middle dot spelling, and this proposal, of using MoS to enforce the spelling without. Since both spellings are evidently correct and in use, this is not in need of regulation (beyond consistency within articles). Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:20, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

The proposal isn't meant to favor any of the three (space, dot, no-space-no-dot) but simply clarify that no-space-no-dot is as acceptable as the other two, the final choice being determined by what's used in sources for any given article.

I agree with you re CREEP -- as I said early in this discussion, "If the question is, what should articles use, I think we should leave that to editors of individual articles. If and when it appears that there's a recurring issue that wastes editors' time, that would be the time to think about adding something to MOS". I finally made this proposal since in general, compound units do use either middot or space, and several editors wanted to interpret that as meaning "no-space" is forbidden.

If there's a modification of the wording you think would better express the "equal footing" of kW h, kW·h and kWh, that would be welcome. EEng (talk) 12:46, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support "Kw h" is very uncommon and in fact I have never seen it any of the papers I have read. "Kw.h" is confusing and seems to me like a file of some programming language. "Kwh" is by far the most used abbreviation. -- Magioladitis (talk) 08:36, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Wait, nobody is proposing to use "kW.h". What people are discussing is "kW·h", with a middle dot (and "kW.h" is being used only as a convenience shortcut here in this discussion). Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:48, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
    • "kW·h" is even worse. It uses a non-standard keyboard character. -- Magioladitis (talk) 08:52, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
      • The mid-dot '·' can be inserted by clicking on it in the special symbols a little below the edit section, along with –—×÷←→ and similar symbols. I have also created the {{kWh|45}} template that displays as 45 kWh.  Stepho  talk  09:34, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
        • The middot (or interpunct) is commonly used to denote scalar multiplication – it's a standard symbol. You can enter it easily on any html page as ·. Archon 2488 (talk) 12:45, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
          • Also: Interpunct#Keyboard input and Typography keyboard layout. — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 22:15, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Do you think that an argument with wrong capitalization ("Kwh" instead of "kWh") looks convincing? ;–) — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 22:15, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support per reliable sources and common usage. Dbfirs 11:38, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Arbitrary break (re kWh proposal)

[Side question: For me at least (IE 11.0.10) the Proposal subsection above doesn't appear with an [Edit] link -- anyone know why that is?] -- EEng (talk)

• Support - Changing my position from comment due to pervasive usage, but with the following strong caveat: that the wording restricting its applicability to a subject area not be weakened. —Quondum 14:10, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

But you're OK with the current wording? EEng (talk) 16:12, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Let's say I consider tweaking as a next step, with the current wording just squeaking in on acceptability. There are wordings I'd prefer, e.g., "are used" to become "may be used". I agree with QrTTf7fH's sentiment below (and thus would prefer a strong oppose), but since this appears not to be WP's stated role, I'll put that aside. If, for example, WP was to clearly distinguish style as its own, and content as reference, I would oppose. But since this seems a fuzzy area, I'll not venture there. —Quondum 17:29, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Comment – Some of the above discussion seems to ignore what the purpose of a MoS is; there is also some heavy emphasis on personal preference. A MoS is to provide a guideline for uniformity despite style variations elsewhere. I would suggest that an encyclopaedia that spans the world would do better to simplify its style guide where possible even if this does not entirely reflect dominant usage. We need to accept that any style guide will inherently cut across some styles used somewhere else, and that some readers will have to become familiar with a new style. I'm sure that if we continue to accumulate exceptions to easily stated rules, the MoS will become increasingly unworkable. Could someone please link to the place in the MoS where it says to use the notation or style dominantly in use in notable sources? —Quondum 23:11, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

• Glad you asked:

• WP:MOSNUM#Choice of units: In most articles, including all scientific articles, the main units chosen will be SI units, non-SI units officially accepted for use with the SI, or such other units as are conventional in reliable-source discussions of the article topic (such as revolutions per minute (rpm) for angular speed, hands for heights of horses, etc.)
• WP:MOSNUM#Unit_names_and_symbols: Unit names and symbols should follow the practice of reliable sources.

• In conjunction with that let me repeat (slightly modified) something I said earlier:

An article can't be consistent with everything, so choices must be made, and Wikipedia's choice is that the value of consistency between a given article and external literature on the same topic is greater than the value of consistency between that article and articles on other topics.

• Some sources using kWh include [10] [11] [12] [13] [14].
• And finally, the proposal (since it's getting hard to find above) is to add the following to Energy section of WP:MOSNUM#Specific_units:

kilowatt-hour ... kWh / MWh / GWh ... Where reliable sources in a given subject area (such as energy supply and consumption) do so, the symbols kWh, MWh, GWh (with no space) are used in place of (for example) the formal kW h (i.e. with space) or kW·h.

EEng (talk) 01:01, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

I suppose I walked into that one. It seems that my suggestion of retaining simple and reasonably uniform style guidelines in the interest of manageability is not enshrined as a principle. Also, I would personally not have adopted the principle that Unit names and symbols should follow the practice of reliable sources, but would rather have built on the requirement for SI units to be expressed as the SI mandates. Your mention of "Wikipedia's choice" is not obvious. (Is that codified somewhere? Not that I'm going to challenge it.) Unit names and symbols should follow the practice of reliable sources is probably the crux of it, and in particular the intent behind it. It does not address the matter of whether frequency of use by reliable sources is a factor, so it may be argued that the use of SI units mandates their usage as per SI.

Your suggested wording reflects the sources being from a restricted area. I suspect (gut feel only) that in areas of physics, where there is occasion to use these units, the SI standard may dominate. With the restriction of the subject area as given in the suggestion here, however, and if the usage is agreed to be pervasive within that area, I find it difficult to object despite my own liking for uniformity and a particular style.

I'll leave the open issues of interpretation that I've highlighted to others to debate, if they wish; some rewording (especially of the quoted piece in WP:MOSNUM#Unit_names_and_symbols) might be useful. —Quondum 02:09, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

I think the idea is that, for example, someone who reads about a topic on WP and then decides to get serious about it shouldn't find himself realizing that WP taught him notation different from that in the outside sources. An example: articles on engines talk about RPMs, but if we rigidly adhered to SI, those would probably have to be expressed in Hz or, I suppose, radians per second. That would be completely insane and make WP a laughingstock. Can you trouble you for an explicit support or oppose? EEng (talk) 03:13, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

I would not agree with that "idea"; this kind of "WP taught me something different from what I'm expected to use" problem cannot be avoided. When the outside sources overwhelmingly use one notation throughout a discipline your comment is fair, but when it is varied within the discipline (even with a relatively dominant notation), I see no reason to use this argument. Your example of kWh etc. related to electrical energy generation and consumption by a populace may be an example of overwhelming use (I get the feeling fro others' posts above that this is the case).

I have a feeling that the MOS should make calls of this nature on a more specific basis, rather than making the call on how to make a choice. Thus this could be a setting precedent, not a formula for a decision, and future specific choices could be made in the MOS without allowing editors to say "I'm changing this article to XXX style, since the MOS says if sources do it, that's how it must be. My evaluation is that sources do it." I would rather see consensus be reached in each case on whether the particular usage justifies a specific deviation from the SI mandate. With that in mind, may I suggest the following?:

kilowatt-hour ... kWh / MWh / GWh ... In the subject area of energy supply and consumption, the symbols kWh, MWh, GWh (with no space) should be used in place of (for example) the formal kW h (i.e. with space) or kW∙h. These unspaced symbols are overwhelmingly used in this subject in outside sources.

This I could support. —Quondum 03:41, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

I had a careful explanation of why jumping to that kind of specificity is opposite to usual MOS practice, but my machine crashed and I lost it -- haven't the heart to recreate it in full. But in brief: MOS prefers, where experience suggests the specificity its guidance is inadequate, to titrate in additional guidance slowly, drop by drop, until the litmus paper just changes color (if you get my meaning), rather than dumping in the whole bottle of additional guidance right at the start. (Changing the wording to call out energy supply and consumption as the exact area concerned, instead of as just examples, would be dumping in the whole bottle. Anyway, I just grabbed those two topics because I knew they applied -- there are many others that would have to be on the list as well.)

I hope that made sense. EEng (talk) 04:35, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Your analogy could be interpreted exactly the other way around, where giving general guidance rather than dealing with only a specific case is the whole bottle: it has far greater impact. Generality tends to bite in unexpected ways. But: I do not have particularly strong feelings on this, and I'd suggest waiting for comments on this perspective from others first. —Quondum 04:58, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree (strongly) with most of Quondum's analysis. The main place we might differ is that where Quondum writes "SI" (International System of Units) I prefer "ISQ" (International System of Quantities). One benefit of the ISQ over the SI is that it is more inclusive, defining, for example, units like the decibel, the megabyte (and, yes, even the loathed mebibyte) and the nat. That makes it more applicable for a platform like Wikipedia. The ISQ has broad international consensus across a broad spectrum of disciplines. In a nutshell: one simple rule is better (easier for everyone to follow - even the readers) is better than lots of complicated ones with countless exceptions. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 07:01, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Our evidence (above) is that this restriction is unnecessary, because the watt-hour is not often used in physics. The joule has superseded it. That's why we've struggled to find examples of watt-hour notation in physics. We find it in material for the general public such as news reports and energy bills and we find it in government and policy documents, though even there it is elbowed aside - compare the use of kWh in the domestic section of the UK government's Energy Consumption in the UK 2014[15] with the use of ktoe (thousand tonnes of oil equivalent) in the remainder of the document[16] as discussed on page 8 of this part.

In short, when we find the watt-hour we normally find Wh. When we look for it in fields where we'd expect a mid-dot or a space, we rarely find it at all. We don't need to impose a restriction in the MOS because it's already inherent in the sources. NebY (talk) 08:05, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Makes sense, but there are articles that use the watt second. Should that be W s, W·s or Ws? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 09:55, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

What do articles currently use when presenting data in watt-seconds and using a symbol or abbreviation? NebY (talk) 10:17, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Why not just call the watt-second a joule, which is what it is? Archon 2488 (talk) 13:08, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

I can't help noticing a glitch in the logic above (by NebY and Archon 2488). You cannot mandate anything such as "just use the joule instead of the watt-second in Wikipedia". And while the watt-hour is not a typically used unit in physics, it is valid and would occur in contexts discussing equivalences or in intermediate results in which hours are convenient. You do not have to go far to find an example: look at the lead of joule. We must therefore be careful to avoid mandating the use of the abbreviated units anywhere but in fields in which we have identified that use of the abbreviated units are the norm. And while I agree with what Hallucegenia says below, it should not be taken to imply that the industry standard unit should take precedence over the units elsewhere. —Quondum 14:01, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment Strong support I think it is important for us to remember that kilowatt-hour is a non-SI unit used mostly by the electricity supply industry, where the abbreviation is overwhelmingly kWh. The SI unit of energy is the joule. Though the kWh is a non-SI unit accepted for use by the BIPM, it does not seem to me that authorities on scientific notation should take precedence over an industry standard usage for an industry unit. Hallucegenia (talk) 12:24, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

To avoid any doubt, this translates into Strong support.The kilowatt-hour is a non-SI unit used by primarily by the electricity supply industry, and that industry universally uses kWh as the symbol. To do otherwise in Wikipedia articles on electricity supply undermines, in my opinion, the encyclopedic credibility of those articles in the eyes of industry specialists. Articles on scientific subject that refer to electrical energy should use SI units such as Megajoule. Hallucegenia (talk) 16:59, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose: Wikipedia is falling in a spiral where the most popular (mis)conceptions dominate and even become the rule; let's not continue this terrible practice. We must remember that truth isn't decided by majority. Just as we don't need to keep quotes identical character per character (Typographical changes are permitted for the sake of keeping a consistent look), we shouldn't “recommended” to follow a convention just because it's the most popular one in the industry. “Kwh”, “MW_e”/“MW_th” all arose because of the failure of people to follow the relevant standards, which are there for a good reason. The general case of concatenating units (Without space) to indicate product leads to ambiguous results, like “Gs” for gauss-second (But that's already used for Gauss) or “Tm” for tesla-metre (But that's prescribed by the BIPM as the construction for terametre) and hence are disallowed by the relevant standards (SI brochure). Following the recommended convention of mandatory product symbol for units (Including space) for some units while disregarding it for others would be an inconsistence. Recommending “KW⋅h” would be neither original research nor correcting great wrongs, it's supported by the relevant standards (I.e: reliable sources). Whether a part of the industry has unfortunately chosen to disregard that and deform a part of the language (Concerning the representation of unit) shouldn't make us follow such a deformation as well; were this the case, for the same principle we should be using slang like “gotta”, “ain't”, “bro”, etc... for the articles on pop music; or “lol” for the articles about Internet culture (And I'm not talking about quotes, but the encyclopedic text itself). I suggest that the Manual of Style keeps recommends the expression KW⋅h in encyclopedic but to keep whatever representation is used in quotes. Regards. QrTTf7fH (talk) 15:22, 4 August 2014 (UTC).

• If you want to propose a change to MOS' provision that "the main units chosen will be SI units ... or such other units as are conventional in reliable-source discussions of the article topic", go ahead, but this discussion is needs to be done in the context of that MOS' provision as long as it's in force.
• You've put your finger on another reason MOS says what I just quoted: because otherwise, the units in the article text would clash with the units in quoted material. Come to think if it, that may be the main reason for the provision in the first place.
• Let me ask you: if article says that an engine achieves 200 hp at 5000 rpm, do you want that changed to 149 kilowatts at 83 Hertz (or maybe 524 radians per second)?

EEng (talk) 16:57, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Giving engine power in kilowatts is quite common outside the US. As for whether you measure cycles per minute or per second, follow the convention that makes sense in terms of the field or industry you're talking about. Archon 2488 (talk) 18:01, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

You didn't answer the question, which was whether you'd accept an article saying an engine operated at "5000 rpm", or not. EEng (talk) 18:36, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support use of "kWh" unspaced where appropriate. I do not accept that there is any significant likelihood that these units will be used outside the contexts of electricity generation and supply. I would suggest that there is no realistic probability that the lack of space or middot will cause misinterpretation or ambiguity. Kahastok talk 17:44, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Microsoft is more important than IBM and Toshiba

It is for the best that editors remain unaware that IBM and Toshiba use unambiguous binary prefixes, because (shock, horror, probe!) they might start to use them themselves, and we wouldn't want that, would we? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 21:26, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

For further clarification, according to IBM:

• Decimal units (base-10), such as K, MB, GB, and TB, are commonly used to express data storage values. These values, however, are more accurately expressed using binary units (base-2), such as KiB, MiB, GiB, and TiB. At the kilobyte level, the difference between decimal and binary units of measurement is relatively small (2.4%). This difference grows as data storage values increase. When values reach terabyte levels, the difference between decimal and binary units approaches 10%.
• To avoid confusion, the online LTFS Single Drive Edition product documentation represents data storage using both decimal and binary units. Data storage values are displayed using the following format:#### decimal unit (binary unit)
• For example, a value of 512 terabytes is displayed: 512 TB (465.6 TiB)

It is for the best that Wikipedia editors remain ignorant of the benefits of IEC prefixes. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 21:40, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Please read WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. What you added, even if the statements are accurate (I didn't check; many such statements added have been faked), have no place in the MOS. They may be used on the MOS talk page to attempt to justify a change in the MOS, but they do not belong in the MoS. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:13, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

See also the OR-laden QUOTEFARM Timeline of binary prefixes, which includes stuff like '1957 ... Earliest instance of "kilobit" in both IEEE explore and Google Scholar'. EEng (talk) 23:40, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Well, are the statements in question true or false? Is this yet another context in which we are supposed to ignore inconvenient facts for political reasons? Archon 2488 (talk) 22:48, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

IBM still uses KB, MB and GB to specify memory in their computers. Here are some quotes on the IBM Power System S824 [17]

"Level 4 (L4) cache - 16 MB per DIMM" and "Memory Min/Max - 16 GB, 32 GB and 64 GB 1600 MHz DDR3 module"

The IBM zEnterprise z196 [18] can have 3056 GB of Processor Memory.-- SWTPC6800 (talk) 23:53, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

The question is, are these units actually GB etc. or are they GiB, etc.? Archon 2488 (talk) 00:25, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

IBM may be weird (they now offer a decimal floating point unit on their mainframes) but they're not weird enough to build Random-access memory (RAM) with a capacity that is evenly divisible by one billion. Nobody's built RAM with a bit capacity that's evenly divisible by a power of 10 since the 1950s. Jc3s5h (talk) 00:56, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

The memories are industry standard binary size. The decimal floating point units are required for bookkeeping that is accurate to the penny. The repeated decimal to binary to decimal conversions of several million dollars could introduce serious round off errors. All the calculations are done in decimal to eliminate this problem. -- SWTPC6800 (talk) 01:32, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't see the relevance of computer architecture to how data storage is reported. In its customer support pages, to reduce confusion IBM consistently provides conversions between MB and MiB. Here's another example:

• Decimal units such as KB, MB, GB, and TB have commonly been used to express data storage values, though these values are more accurately expressed using binary units such as KiB, MiB, GiB, and TiB. At the kilobyte level, the difference between decimal and binary units of measurement is relatively small (2.4%). This difference grows as data storage values increase, and when values reach terabyte levels the difference between decimal and binary units approaches 10%.
• To reduce the possibility of confusion, this information center represents data storage using both decimal and binary units. Data storage values are displayed using the following format:#### decimal unit (binary unit)
• By this example, the value 512 terabytes is displayed as: 512 TB (465.6 TiB)

The wording is slightly different but the underlying message is the same. The fact is that IBM and Toshiba are following international standards. Another fact is that IBM has gone to a lot of trouble to explain why it follows them. A third fact is that MOSNUM editors consider it appropriate to hide this information from its readers.Dondervogel 2 (talk) 07:47, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Our (well, your) reasoning is not appropriate for the MOS, but only for discussions about the MOS. (And, even if correct, it doesn't significantly affect the arguments for the status quo, that KiB, MiB, etc., should not be used unless used in the sources.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 08:04, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

So far I have just stated relevant facts. You are arguing that while MOSNUM readers (i.e., WP editors) need to be informed that unambiguous units are unfamiliar, they do not need to know that they are being used for disambiguation by the computer industry in situations for which disambiguation is needed. So far I have drawn no conclusions from the facts, but let me do so now by stating that I disagree strongly with your opinion and by explaining why. For the most part, MOSNUM does a good job not just in prescribing good practice, but in explaining the reasons for the choices made. A bizarre exception is made in the case of binary prefixes. Where it has attempted to disambiguate, the computer industry has chosen to use IEC binary prefixes for binary powers, and standard prefixes for decimal powers. MOSNUM should follow that lead instead of insisting on the present (failed) guidelines that result in hundreds (possibly thousands) of ambiguous articles. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 11:03, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Suggestion: does the convert template not support TB --> TiB conversions, etc? If not, why not? This would be a good way to disambiguate, and should keep everyone happy. It's all very well to say that WP should follow the conventions used by particular industries, but then in order to understand the units used, it would appear that the readers would also need to be familiar with industry practice. Archon 2488 (talk) 12:36, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

The first step would be to find an industry that uses the "MiB" units. An obscure application note on the IBM web site does not mean IBM uses this failed standard. "MiB" has been the binary unit of the future for almost 2 decades. -- SWTPC6800 (talk) 14:41, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Toshiba press releases and product specifications [19] [20], plus IBM [21] [22] [23] and HP [24] [25] Dondervogel 2 (talk) 15:21, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

It's still beyond the scope of this discussion or of what should be in the MOS, but you have demonstrated that some (major) players in the industry say that they use MiB or that they use MB solely in the decimal sense, not that the industry uses MiB, even in situations where the disambiguation between the binary and decimal usage are made. (I was going to say "are necessary" rather than "are made", but that would be wrong.) We would need third-party comments to remove the "say", and survey articles to support what you seem to want. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 14:50, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

What I have shown is that these major players do use MB vs MiB to disambiguate between decimal and binary meanings, by which I mean that when both meanings are needed in the same article or on the same page, the decimal meaning is indicated by MB and the binary by MiB. I maintain further that this is the only form of disambiguation followed by industry and challenge you to cite one single example of a major player using an alternative disambiguation method. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 15:39, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Nonsensical entry under "Accept" column for date formats

The rationale for

• this edit (edit summary: you're not thinking carefully about this. As you have it the one Acceptable is the right replacement for both Unaccepts, and that's not true because the Unaccepts are ambiguous. Like I said we could lv Accept. empty, but please discuss on Talk)

in WP:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers § Date formats really escapes me. There is no uncertainty about the ambiguity: it is stated under the comments. The question marks ??-?? barely gives a hint unless you already know what it is trying to say, and would belong under the comments if you really want to use it. I think it is amply clear, though a few more words (e.g. "the day–month ordering is ambiguous"). The location of the bad format under the "Acceptable" column is the worst of all options. Besides, it is the one acceptable version for what is meant by both unaccepts (which, if you can disambiguate if you really want to, though a suitable choice of day > 12 for the example would achieve the same purpose. —Quondum 04:24, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

For the record, the original example wasn't nonsensical, but rather the best I and a number of other editors could come up with for a case that was just a bit different from all the others, and therefore didn't quite fit the format of the table. I think the OP's latest modification of the example [26] is a good one and solves the problem pretty well. EEng (talk) 04:56, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks – I'm glad there's something that is a reasonable fit all around; getting the right meaning across is tricky. And apologies for the wording that I chose above – I need to be less insensitive to the issues that others have considered and what they've achieved. —Quondum 06:19, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

As you may have seen I made a further adjustment which, in combination with your earlier edit, gives us something quite effective instead of just the least awkward of several bad alternatives. EEng (talk) 03:17, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Per mil

There've been unanimous comments at Talk:per mil to return the page to per mille and I'm launching its formal process now. That could go either way: per mil does seem to have an honest lead at Google Scholar despite being unbearably misleading and less common in general use. Maybe the people who come by to comment now will have a different feeling from those who have already stopped by.

Regardless of that page's status, though, I propose we suggest not using written "per mil" as a matter of house style (as here, here, here, here...). We can build a bot so that each use links to the subject's article and people are still going to misunderstand it as "per mil[lion]". It's not an issue worth having, particularly when any page using ‰ in a technical context should be using the symbol in the first place and when "per mille" is (A) etymologically more correct; (B) just as common in general use; (C) not unknown in technical use; and (D) not possible to confuse with ppm. (In the article on property tax, even if it is less common in general use, we should be using "mill" to fit with all the other phrasing on the page.) What do you guys say? — LlywelynII 12:16, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

%

As a side point, I have no qualm with the underlying assumption in our treatment of percent: non-technical pages can write it out and technical pages & infoboxes should use the sign.

However, the page currently reads as if we are saying non-technical pages (as a matter of style) should always write out the numbers and percent. That can't be right. Surely, in an article on Christianity,

• seven to ten percent of Arabs are Christians is fine;
• seven to ten % of Arabs are Christians is wrong;
• 7 to 10 per cent of Arabs are Christians is not good; and
• 7.1 to 10% of Arabs are Christians is fine.

Not only fine, but better. We should include an example in our treatment to make that clear. — LlywelynII 12:16, 4 August 2014 (UTC)