Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign)

RFC: Can an article be too biased in favor of near-universal sourcing of one side of an issue? (Gamergate controversy)

See /RFC1

What Is the Ethics Issue?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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It is my understanding that so-called Gamergate supporters say that there is an issue about journalistic ethics. What is the ethics issue? My understanding is that so-called Gamergate supporters are defenders of the video game culture which they see as under attack by the mainstream media. The only ethical issue that is obvious to me is harassment and death threats against feminist critics, but that is on the other "side" of the controversy. What is the ethics issue? What do the so-called Gamergate supporters say is unethical about coverage of the video game culture by the mainstream media? I understand that there are issues about bias in reporting. However, it seems to me that claims of unethical reporting are stronger than claims of biased reporting. What is the ethical issue? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:23, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

This is not a forum to discuss GamerGate. Halfhat (talk) 16:28, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Per WP:RS the "ethics issue" is a cover story for the harrassment of women. Primary it consists of conspiracy theories revolving around Zoe Quinn. We should not be discussing GamerGate in terms of actually being about ethics per WP:FRINGE. Artw (talk) 16:32, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

100% wrong per NPOV. It is claimed the ethics issue is a front, but there is no fundamental statement (like a scientific report or a legal document) that supports this. As such we will continue to treat that claim as a popular opinion in the press, but absolutely not as fact. --MASEM (t) 17:20, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

The Guardian: The recent uproar – said to be over ethics in journalism but focused mostly on targeting outspoken women who aren’t journalists at all – is just the last, desperate gasp of misogynists facing an unwelcoming future." , The Telegraph "#GamerGate: the misogynist movement blighting the video games industry" , The IB Times Any lingering doubt over whether the Gamergate movement is dedicated to anything other than misogyny and intimidation was eliminated early Thursday when Felicia Day’s personal information was dumped online., Time: Misogynist Online Abuse Is Everyone’s Problem — Men Included , Huff Po: They are facing, as activist Melissa McEwan put it, terrorist misogyny." , Vox Angry misogyny is now the primary face of #GamerGate, The LA Times: "It's time to silence 'gamergate,' end the misogyny in gaming culture" again, we have pretty much reached the point where the verdict is in fact in -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:30, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Quoting directly from the policy you cite:

"When a statement is an opinion (e.g. a matter which is subject to serious dispute or commonly considered to be subjective), it should be attributed in the text to the person or group who holds the opinion. Thus we might write: "John Doe's baseball skills have been praised by baseball insiders such as Al Kaline and Joe Torre.[1]". We do not write: "John Doe is the best baseball player". The inclusion of opinions is subject to weight policy, and they should be backed up with an inline citation to a reliable source that verifies both the opinion and who holds it." YellowSandals (talk) 17:47, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

where exactly is there ANY, let alone SERIOUS discussion/distension? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:54, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh, what. Did you not hear that Gamergate involves some controversy? You've been here all this time. YellowSandals (talk) 18:04, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Why, yes, yes it does. Misogynist harassment is controversial. Claiming that harassment is "about ethics" is controversial. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:40, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Every source you name frames it as an opinionated claim, not fact. Claims we will obviously include, but will not restate the context of the claim in WP's voice. --MASEM (t) 17:49, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Kaciemonster asked about this earlier and you didn't respond, but what realistic source would you accept for this? There's not going to be a scientific paper on the subject because this isn't a scientific question and you're not going to have a legal dispute that results in a judge saying "yeah, it's really all about ethics in game journalism". So what realistic end game is there for this? Protonk (talk) 17:34, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

The realistic end game is to impartially state points of view, following the policy of due weight, of course, and then to attribute those points of view to the groups or people that hold them. Exactly as Wiki policy stipulates. YellowSandals (talk) 17:51, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

The analysis of who makes up GG to make an objective assessment of whether they are misogynistic or not is likely going to come from researchers in the social studies area. It has been said that GG is an ideal petri dish for those type of researchers and there are bound to be papers for years trying to analyze the motivation and drive. They will perform their surveys, use statistics and other tests to make conclusions, and present it via a peer-reviewed journal, at which point if those papers claim the majority of GG supporters are misogynistic, then we can start thinking of it as fact. Another possible avenue for such a study would be something that is more proficient at public polling like the Pew Researcher Center, who can do a similar type of analysis. But key is that they are looking at the membership and not the actions. --MASEM (t) 17:55, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

(e/c)The most repeated claim is that developers are too close to the games publication journalists and are getting good coverage because of the relationships. The reliable sources note that the actions under the gamergate tag focus almost entirely upon small indie developers (most often only the female developers) and completely ignore the industry giants who lavish games journalists with gifts and parties and consoles and their publications with massive promotional ad campaigns or the actual journalists who have allegedly committed these ethics breaches.

Some of the complaints also involved crowdfunding sites where journalists would make nominal contributions/investments to get on mailing lists about developments and access to early release /pre-release versions to review. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:34, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

there has also been some effort to frame as an "ethics" issue coverage and reviews of games that include social commentary aspects such as the portrayal of women. the position apparently was " ethical coverage" of games would apparently be limited to "objective" things such as graphics capabilities and ease of controls and not "subjective" commentary. that line has also been roundly dismissed by the sources. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:46, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

This is a great question that a lot of people have been asking. GamerGate hasn't really been able to articulate any serious ethical issue that anyone outside the movement considers valid. As per TRPoD, most common has been the argument that video game reviews should be "objective," which is a contradiction in terms. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:13, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

It's not that nobody outside the movement has acknowledged Gamergate's reported concerns. It's that certain editors here dismiss those concerns and have been pruning them from the article. Even though a few periodicals have gone on record for changing their policies in response to the ethics concerns. This article has gotten so bad, I'm not even sure how accurate most of the actually factual info is anymore. If a single source reported that Gamergate was sacrificing pigs to summon the devil, we'd have a whole paragraph devoted to it and a novel's worth of debating on the talk page to keep it in.

Also, "lots" of people have been commenting on the biased nature of this article, but I see those are "legions of SPAs and sock puppets". Somebody who agrees with your point of view, however, is "lots of people" that have a legitimate concern. YellowSandals (talk) 20:21, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

That is not the case. Editors here have recognized the level and type of coverage the GamerGate movement's concerns for ethics has gotten and realize that no one in the media takes them seriously (except for the many conservative-leaning sites out there that have jumped on the anti-feminism bandwagon).—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:31, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, two months ago a couple sites modified ethics policies to make clear that Patreon contributions should be disclosed, etc. That wasn't particularly controversial. But now what? If this is really about ethics, there has to be something more than that, otherwise the movement would have declared victory and moved on months ago. So what are the *other* "ethics" concerns? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:41, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Except now, some of the writers have made their Patreons private. And, its not just about the indie games or whatever. From what I've gathered from the pro-gg IRC, the "warpath" has IGN as a later target, with the AAA publishers as well. However, their reasoning is that they want to start small, and climb up the ladder of corruption, so to speak. --DungeonSiegeAddict510 (talk) 20:49, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Erm, to clarify, the IRC serves as somewhat of an "abstraction layer" of sorts to 8chan's /gg/ board, where, *le gasp*, people can post anything, but ultimately other people can weigh in on the threads. The IRC channel(s) look at the threads, decide stuff, and then (attempt) to get it up on twitter or somesuch, or organize "Operations" and somesuch. --DungeonSiegeAddict510 (talk) 20:52, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

One last thing. There is a lot of (very overlooked) evidence of third party trolls false flagging harassment and such. That is an angle that, afaik, has not been covered in the page. Is it really that absurd that there can't be third parties who are getting themselves involved in this? Does it have to be an "us vs them" thing? People are people, all different, you can't just boil them down to the lowest denominator. (sorry for the tangent) --DungeonSiegeAddict510 (talk) 20:57, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure what relevance a Patreon being private is, and "starting small" presumes that they've found any "corruption" to begin with, which is a fact not in evidence. What they might want to do in the future aside, the movement is being judged in the court of public opinion by what it's doing *right now*. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:01, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh, okay. You got me. So why not write about the controversy in past tense now that it's over and everybody agrees that Gamergate was more amoral than Hitler? And yes, as DungeonSiege points out, if you guys really think nobody worth caring about at is paying any attention to Gamergate outside of harassed feminists, you're likely going to get blind-sided as this conflict keeps going. You guys asked, "Why aren't they attacking the journals if they aren't misogynist?"

Well, Gawker is bleeding money now, so you got your wish. Now you're saying, "Oh, why don't they go fight the big boys, then, instead of this little periodicals if they're not misogynist?"

There's no saying they won't and some are saying they will. Can we be frank? These personal smear articles that were inserted earlier - are you trying to add these to hang on to this thing as a clear-cut moral battle with obvious good guys and bad guy? A bunch of political entities have gotten involved in this thing and it even hit the Colbert Report. Yet we've still got yutzes here trying to frame Gamergate as some petty, inconsequential nothingness that's just about ready to collapse in on itself once we all realize the issue has nothing to do with ethics, and everything to do with ethics - or excuse me, I mean misogyny. By focusing so much on this moral crap, you really squander an opportunity to get an objective, ongoing, comprehensive look at this whole thing as it develops. YellowSandals (talk) 20:59, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

"Gawker is bleeding money" [citation needed] NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:01, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

They did post an article where they said they were losing millions due to some of these advertisers pulling support for their site. Gawker has been doing everything they can to get it under control. Are you really so far down the rabbit hole that you can't believe Gamergate has had any real impact at all on anything? YellowSandals (talk) 21:04, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

No. They said, two weeks ago, that they were losing "thousands" of dollars... and that was in an article that defiantly said they would not doing anything different, because they would refuse to bow to pressure based on advertising dollars. No one else has since pulled any ads, to anyone's knowledge. Trying to get advertisers to pull ads from websites that say things you don't like is an interesting example of a boycott, but it has nothing to do with "ethics in video game journalism." For example, nothing Gamasutra published was unethical.

You are bouncing around the edges of this, complaining about what everyone else is saying about you... while you still haven't been able to articulate what the movement really wants. If you can't define what you're after, it's hard to argue that it's unfair for others to define you. So again, as the thread starter said — what are the ethical issues in video game journalism that GamerGate wants to see changed? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:11, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

About me? I am not Gamergate. I'm not the patriarchy. I'm not the devil. I am a random person on the internet, and I've been keeping up with this debate, and as far as I can tell, there are sides to this thing and Gamergate is having an impact. You want to write this Wiki article to imply Gamergate basically isn't happening, but it is doing things and there are rational people in it. A common complaint from people who are neutral on this thing and don't care that much about it, however, is that it's hard to even talk about Gamergate without choosing a side because there's too many radical elements. I question the incredible bias and moral attacks in this article, and surely enough you associate me with a group that you've described as "factually evil". So how am I supposed to work with you or anyone in this mindset? It's like one of the ways you identify a misogynist is if you accuse them of misogyny and they deny it, they're a misogynist. Seriously, it's like old inquisition stuff, and when there's a collection of editors on a witch hunt, you'll find plenty of witches as long as you're flexible with the definition of "witch". YellowSandals (talk) 21:22, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

So instead of answering the simple question of what the movement's goals are, you deflect, turn it around on me and fabricate a "quote" that I've never said. Quite. That aptly demonstrates why the movement isn't taken seriously. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:26, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Your personal perception as to whether or not Gamergate is a serious thing shouldn't be playing so much into how you write this article. I'm not here to debate with you about whether not Gamergate is morally wrong or if they're winning or losing their fight. I'm here to debate with you about how you write this article, and my stance is that you're too biased. You need to lay off the attacks and just focus on stuff that can be objectively described. Neither of us knows what's going through the heads of people involved in this thing, save ourselves - and even then that depends on how firm a logical grasp we have on our feelings. YellowSandals (talk) 21:35, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

We can objectively describe that gamergate has achieved its notability for the death threats issued under its name and that is really all that it has been noted for. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:41, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Correction: We can objectively describe that gamergate has achieved its notability for the death threats that the media has associated with it. Willhesucceed (talk) 06:59, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

@Willhesucceed: you are joking here right? you are not actually submitting that gamergate is only connected to harassment by some type of gigantic media conspiracy?? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:30, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

The proof is in the pudding. All of these acts of harassment< death threats, and the like have happened because people have spoken out against GamerGate or because they are the cause of GamerGate. Wikipedia is a foundation that has a governing body and other things that GamerGate inherently does not have because it's an anonymous social movement.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:47, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

If the media has associated them with GamerGate, then we cannot say that they aren't related to GamerGate on Wikipedia. Your No true Scotsman deflection is not how Wikipedia works.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 02:19, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

To answer the question of goals, I believe this pastebin would work. http://pastebin.com/tTDeG7Zg It's one of many, and while the goals do vary some from supporter to supporter, it covers the main points pretty well. The main points are: 1.) Being treated with respect by gaming journalistic sites, 2.) Disclosure of previous involvement or relationship with review subjects, 3.) No collusion between journalistic entities. (Mailing lists, etc) 4.) Censorship is not acceptable. 5.) news articles concerning persons should have more than a single source, and all sources must be verifiable, 6.) Personal opinion, or political ideologies should not sway game coverage 7.) No blacklisting of developers 8.) Refusal to be defined by race, creed, religion, or gender. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kitsunedawn (talk • contribs) 02:13, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

We are aware of the goals. We can't use anything you've written in that 2 month old pastebin anyway because content on Wikipedia must be supported by reliable sources.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 02:19, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Straw poll - update lead

Should the lead paragraph be updated to read:

• The Gamergate controversy concerns misogyny and harassment in video game culture. In August 2014, media began covering actions on the internet which appeared under the umbrella term gamergate (sometimes GamerGate or the hashtag #gamergate) wherein a mostly anonymous or pseudonymous group of individuals without an identified leadership or organization made claims ostensibly about topics such as ethics in games journalism but which included a number of high profile incidents of harassment against women in the industry.

Since the previous offer of a new lead to address problems by focusing our article lead on what the sources actually cover, as most of the sections on this page wandered off into pointless discussion not about the article, a am going to offer it again. Please place your !vote and comment / sources about how / why it could more accurately represent the sources coverage of the subject.

!vote

• support it focuses the article on what has been covered - the controversy - and focuses on what the sources have found notable about the controversy - the harassment - while framing as the reliable sources have for months the "ostensible" claims that the gamergaters are theoretically about. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:02, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
• strongest possible oppose as this is a full on violation of neutrality. --MASEM (t) 21:23, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Which portions are NPOV? and please provide sources that support your claim. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:35, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

• oppose Aside from the issue of having a partisan slant, the wording is loopy and poorly structured. Like always, the wording is poor to try to disguise a biased statement as though it were a neutral one. No points of view are attributed... it's the same biased, hacky thing you guys keep writing. What's different about it this time? YellowSandals (talk) 21:51, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
• oppose Sorry I don't have time to explain now, it's similar to the above 2. Halfhat (talk) 22:03, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose but only because I prefer the version that came about prior to the full protection.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:12, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
• oppose per yellow sandals Retartist (talk) 22:53, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose violates WP:NPOV by condemning pro-GG without hedging -> "ostensibly" starship.paint ~ regal 22:56, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

ahhh, the journalist ethic of "hedging". so it we added "There may be some truth to their harassment" it would pass your muster? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 11:03, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

• oppose Not biased enough, should throw in there some mentions like "GamerGate is literally ISIS", like I've seen floating around Loganmac (talk) 22:58, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

  Drop the snark.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 23:06, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Really? I thought not long ago we were out to prove that Gamergate supporters have embarrassing sexual fetishes. Are you sure we can't tie this issue to any terrorist groups? Maybe we can insinuate that they killed Mister Rogers. There's got to be somebody saying that. YellowSandals (talk) 23:46, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

There were some accounts that looked like ISIS accounts (on twitter) that used both ISIS hashtags and the gamer-gate hashtag. Obviously not bots because only gamergate does bad things Retartist (talk) 01:40, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

My mistake, isis spambots picked up #stopgamergate2014 by accident only source i found whoops Retartist (talk) 01:45, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose At Uncyclopedia, we have an oppose template. Anyways, blatant NPOV violation, does not acknowledge 3'd party trolling. --DSA510 Pls No Hate 23:23, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

"third party trolling" is fringe minimal part of the coverage. the "movement" started by hitching its wagons to trolling. has embraced anonymity to attempt to avoid culpability. but that can and is covered later in the article. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 11:03, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose As mentioned by other users, This clearly violates WP:NPOV. I don't think I have to explain why. [[THEO!|User:Tjraptis20]] (talk) 01:44, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

actually, at least one person would need to. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 11:03, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose as it serves to worsen the bias that already exists.Skyraider (talk) 04:43, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
• oppose for reasons others have already stated more eloquent.Die-yng (talk) 06:18, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose as per WP:NPOV. Obvious editorialising with the use of "ostensibly". Patriarch (talk) 23:27, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

have you read the sources? they near universally use "ostensibly" - it would be a gross NPOV violation to ignore the sources and NOT use "ostensible" -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 09:48, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

the inevitable rambling discussion

Try to write a neutral lead and follow Wiki policy. That means don't write in the voice of one side of controversy. YellowSandals (talk) 21:55, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

This "one side" is the only one adequately represented in reliable sources so per WP:V and WP:UNDUE your concerns are moot.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:56, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

My point is not moot. You still aren't supposed to write in the voice of a side in the controversy. We've been over this. YellowSandals (talk) 21:58, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

It's the only voice out there that meets WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, and WP:BLP when the other side's voice impinges on accusing someone of sleeping with five men.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:10, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

You aren't supposed to write with Gamergate's voice either. YellowSandals (talk) 22:12, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Then we write with the voice of the media that says it's not inherently about ethics in journalism.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:13, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

You write in Wikipedia's voice, you donk. YellowSandals (talk) 22:15, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

And Wikipedia's voice represents what the majority of reliable sources has to say about it.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:17, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't know anything about morals. It's an encyclopedia. It just regurgitates facts and tells people who said what things. It is not a guide to figure out who life's bad guys are. Wikipedia's voice is passive, impartial, and encyclopedic. YellowSandals (talk) 22:19, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

This is the usual argument that "misogyny and harassment" is implying a morality isn't it?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:20, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes. It is me. The same argument we keep having. That morals are subjective. Harassment happened. Immoral intent? Eh. I have no idea. I'm not the type of person who would personally threaten someone over the internet and I don't know why or what anyone was trying to accomplish. YellowSandals (talk) 22:23, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

The same argument would be just as valid in arguing to make the article on Hitler say "Hitler was evil."Think about why that would be wrong, then apply that to this. Halfhat (talk) 22:16, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Would you guys stop going "HITLER'S TREATED BETTER THAN GAMERGATE IS" for once?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:17, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Could you actually address my point? Halfhat (talk) 22:21, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

We keep saying it because one of history's greatest villains gets more respect than Gamergate does on this website. It would be comical if people weren't actively trying to destroy each other over this controversy right now. Like, if this were a Star Wars Vs Star Trek debate, this article would be hilarious. YellowSandals (talk) 22:23, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia has the liberty of 70 years of historians talking about Adolf Hitler to present information as it is in that article. GamerGate is still happening.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:26, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Well we've had seventy years of people saying Hitler is one of history's greatest villains. YellowSandals (talk) 22:30, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

But why would you want to compare yourself with Hitler in the first place? Why constantly bring up this comparison?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:33, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

I am not Gamergate. But no matter how evil something gets in anyone's eyes, if we can write a neutral article about Hitler without directly calling him evil, in theory we should be able to write a neutral article about anything! YellowSandals (talk) 22:40, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

This is why it is even more important to write in a neutral voice to avoid recentism. As suggested at the arbcom case, we should be sticking to facts and not trying to judge which side is right even if the press has come to their own conclusion. --MASEM (t) 23:15, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Ryulong, poorer quality of information does not mean we can assume the press's opinion is correct, that argument makes zero sense. Halfhat (talk) 09:11, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Multiple press agencies possess this same "opinion" which in any other context constitutes an accepted idea or fact. Any form of denying this commonality is tantamount to conspiracy theory.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 09:27, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

No, because they have no way of knowing it other than based off their personal opinions and assumptions, they can't conform this stuff so it's opinion. Wikipedia shouldn't share their spidey senses. Halfhat (talk) 11:02, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

"If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it./it becomes the truth" -Vladimir Lenin Retartist (talk) 11:27, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

You cannot keep denying that the statements from news media from the New York Times to the BBC to CNN to The Washington Post are personal opinions and assumptions, nor keep quoting people who are so far right to make your points. If multiple news agencies see misogyny and sexism and harassment and say that the ethics in journalism claims are only a front then that is how Wikipedia will present this information. You cannot keep mitigating the statements from extremely reputable and reliable sources as opinions and assumptions just because GamerGate says its against corruption in (video game) journalism so that makes all media automatically against them and unusable.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:42, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

You seem to misunderstand what a fact is and what an opinion is. FACT: People have been harassed. Opinion: It was misogynistic in intent/(it was done by GG/it was done by trolls/it was a false flag (These are assumptions)). Fact: Little has been achieved. Opinion: this is because of the cable/gamergaters only want to harass woman because they are evil man-babies. Fact: Hitler was anti-semitic and allowed/ordered jews to die. Opinion: Hitler was pure evil. Learn the difference between facts and opinions Retartist (talk) 04:03, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes. This is the crux here. That "misogyny" or "misogynistic" is an opinion. But seriously, why do you guys keep going to that Hitler comparison?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 04:07, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

The point is that we do not write WP articles prejudging a person/group that is otherwise universally considered "bad" or "evil" (a purely subjective quality) in a degrading manner but instead give that group appropriate coverage with regards to the sources (separating out any opinion towards that until later), and when it comes to actually explaining when it comes to what the opinion is, it is clearly not made in WP's voice. --MASEM (t) 04:09, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

"Misogyny" is not an opinion here though.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 04:26, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes it is. There is a pattern of harassment that easily looks like misogyny, and so the press (and myself, and very much yourself and a few others) can all say that the attacks appear to be a misogynistic because of their focus on woman. But until the people that actually did it are identified, and their personalities determines and all sorts of other studies to make a firm assessment if they did what they did in a misogynistic manner, it remains a significant opinion, not fact, that the attacks were misgoynistic. Consider the Ecole Polytech shooting, where the appearance of the attack was misogynistic: here is what the featured article intro says "Since the attack, Canadians have debated various interpretations of the events, their significance, and Lépine's motives. Many feminist groups and public officials have characterized the massacre as an anti-feminist attack that is representative of wider societal violence against women.... Other interpretations emphasize Lépine's abuse as a child or suggest that the massacre was simply the isolated act of a madman, unrelated to larger social issues....Still other commentators have blamed violence in the media[9] and increasing poverty, isolation, and alienation in society,[10] particularly in immigrant communities." That was in '89, and the cause remains an opinion. We are only 2-3 months out, and there is no way that it can be determined as a fact that the people are doing this for misogynistic manners - even if Occum's Razor says we should assume that. --MASEM (t) 04:35, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Ugh. It is not an opinion. Multiple news sources possess this same "opinion" of how GamerGate has done nothing but focus its attention on a bunch of women so that makes it misogynistic acts. You are making an impossible restriction here because it is highly unlikely that anyone is going to be discovered as the perpetrators. Misogyny is not an opinion and all you've done here is shown your new true colors.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 04:39, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Apparently, one of the prominent harassers was some Brazillian journo or something. Some pro-gg people tracked them down. --DSA510 Pls No Hate 04:42, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

It is opinion. It might be repeated in 99% of the press, but that doesn't make it fact (See: "Global warming doesn't exist" ala 2000). This doesn't discount that their opinions are the predominate aspect of this debate so will get significant attention, but they remain, as about 90% of all the content of the RS, opinions. There are actually very few facts of note here: we know there was harassment and threats against at least 3 woman + others; we know those doing it used the #GG banner, and .. that's pretty much it. Everything else is the court of public opinion. --MASEM (t) 04:44, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

If the RS rules were relaxed, then articles (regardless of source, so long as they themselves have good sourcing/evidence), then this article could become much more neutral. That's just my opinion. --DSA510 Pls No Hate 04:49, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

And if raindrops were donuts we would be a lot fatter than we are. But they are not and we are not going to drop RS just so we can cover gamergaters in a manner that they would prefer. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:45, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

The identity of Sarkeesian's attacker has never been corroborated by reliable sources. There is a vast difference between climate change deniers and GamerGate denial. And Wikipedia's rules should not be made lax in any regard just so a positive spin can be made on the GamerGate movement.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:01, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Masem, There is an objective difference between an opinion source and a news source which some editors feel contains opinions. The term 'opinion source' a specific meaning and it tends to be over-applied here. So long as what we are actually saying in this article matches what our reliable, non-opinion sources say, we're fine, and informing us over and over that what our mainstream sources are saying about gamergate is 'just their opinion' is not going to change Wikipedia policy. We should not be reporting opinion from an editorial as fact, but we absolutely can treat what the vast majority of our news sources are reporting as fact. Can you point to specific places where you believe we are using editorial sources to cite information that is presented as fact? -- TaraInDC (talk) 05:30, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

@Ryulong: the hitler comparison is used because he is a figure that 99.9% of people agree he was evil to some degree, and most historical sources agree that he was to some degree evil. But His wikipedia article doesn't say that he was absolutely evil at all in the lede, it doesn't even say he was evil, it says naism had been described as evil ONCE in the whole page. Retartist (talk) 05:55, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

There has been no evidence presented beyond the pattern of attacks that the harassment is specifically driven by misogyny, particularly no apparent attempt to survey and understand the population of GG to see if it a potential issue with these people. (To contrast, the Newsweek/Brandwatch does explain it's methods as to make it clear that they can say X got more tweets than Y to be able to state that as facts, and then separate out their opinion - we would expect that for proper journalism here) However, it is very obvious when you step back and consider the quality of the sources, and who is saying what, that the use of this claim only occurs in the weaker RS and those closer to the event, making it a clear bias issue that we have to be aware exists and be careful in handling the sources. (The stronger reliable sources like NYTimes that are clearly not op-ed pieces stay very neutral though point out the criticism of the situation, when they do, making it clear it is an opinion or observation without 100% affirmation that it is a fact) Add that because we don't take sides, and the GG have denied saying it is about misogyny (which can be sourced), and that's even more reason that we cannot state the claims that might be popular in the press as fact. As to where we have a fact-presentation problem: the first sentence in the lede. The controversy is not about misogyny - that is an effect of the initial problems. As has been pointed out by others, the proper way to frame this is to state that while supports say it is about ethics, the persistent harassment attributed to GG has a pattern of sexism and misogyny, which has tainted any attempt to discuss any possible ethics issues. That is a very neutral statement true to both sides, but reflects the predominate opinion of the press here. (Really, think about it: everyone's pointed out there's misogyny involved, but it's a symptom not a cause that anyone is trying to figure out how to deal with to defuse GG - that's why the controversy can't be about that). Much of this is the right wording choices in the existing narrative simply to make statements that are too concrete as fact in WP's voice to be attributed to the press or specific source, simply so that we are clearly avoiding taking sides. --MASEM (t) 07:04, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

So we're allowed to say it's an attack on women and women's voices in gaming but we cannot continue referring to it as misogyny because GamerGaters say their movement isn't inherently misogynistic?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:12, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Pretty much yes, that's what "not taking sides" means, and it's the essence of our NPOV core content policy. Though you can say that the press has called it misogynistic in as many ways and shapes as you like, per WP:WEIGHT. Diego (talk) 12:16, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

At the absolute best there are two camps of gamergaters: the 'but ethics!' crowd (who by most accounts spend a lot of time talking about how they're about ethics and not much actually talking about it) and the ones doing the harassing. (And you can spare me the 'they don't represent gamergate' because we all know what the sources say.) We can't give 'but ethics' pride of place when they're the minority perspective. They're getting the extreme minority of mainstream press coverage, and that's because their actions are less interesting, less notable and less significant - because their ethics campaign, again, appears to be largely limited to saying 'gamergate is about ethics.' We can not claim that there is one coherent position that is the gamergate position. We have people saying gamergate is against harassment, and then we have gamergate's extremely well-documented harassment. So at the worst, this article is 'biased' against one faction of gamergate by not presenting it as the majority view at the expense of the much larger, more active and better referenced 'side' that's vocally attacking too-vocal women, "SJWs" and other undesirables in the gaming community. -- TaraInDC (talk) 14:32, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Keep in mind that WEIGHT/UNDUE applies to the entire article, not a single area. The lede is supposed to concisely present the broad overview of the situation. When one is talking anything about a controversy or the like, the common form used in nearly every reputable source (and on WP pages) is to start with those seeking change to address their points, and then to address the opposition and their points, so that there's the counterlogic argument that follows. This might, in the microcasm of the lede, seem to violation WEIGHT/UNDUE for GG, but again, those apply to the article at large - the intense dislike the press has for GG is not going to go under (and in fact with the rest of the lede, it should be plainly obvious that this is the case). But to be neutral and concise, and to avoid presenting opinion as fact, calling the GG controversy as one about misogyny and harassment in the very first sentence is wrong; the controversy was over ethics (by the initiating side, regardless of how flimsy that reasoning is considered by the press), but the resulting harassment has led the press to broadly condemn the movement as misogynistic. This is why it is best to remove any attempt to qualify what the controversy is about in the first sentence, letting the 2nd and 3rd (about pro and antiGG respective) speak for themselves; this is more true to the sources as well that cannot determine what GG is really about. Putting the proGG side in sentence order over the antiGG side is not pushing their side as the majority view particularly when we follow up on the antiGG side as the broad condemnation of the movement, which makes it clear that's the majority view. --MASEM (t) 14:42, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

The question of what gamergate is about is split, even within the movement - there is 'but ethics!' and then there is lots of vicious harassment. This is not 'the movement says X and other people say Y.' It's 'the movement says X and does Y.' We're not going to treat those as two equal sides, 'pro-' and 'anti-' because that's not reality. There's no coherent pro-GG side, and no 'anti-GG' counter movement, and what the movement does can speak for it just as much as the 'but ethics!' protests do. So the question of what the controversy is about is very clear. There is no 'controversy' over whether or not gamergate is really about ethics. If it were, the sources would be more split. There would be sources for the 'but ethics' side other than trivial mentions in articles on harassment that mention that some people claim gamergate is about ethics. There would be an actual discussion. There isn't. Our sources either acknowledge the 'but ethics' claims or actively discredit them. That's not a controversy. -- TaraInDC (talk) 14:58, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Article neutrality

I am appalled by the absolute lack of neutrality demonstrated in this article. The introduction alone is clearly taking a side and simple edits would suffice to fix it:

Gamergate (sometimes referred to as the hashtag #gamergate) is a controversy which started in August 2014. Supporters of the self-described Gamergate movement state that they are opposing corruption in video game journalism. Detractors state that the movement is rooted in a culture war against women and the diversification of gaming culture.

The controversy began when indie game developer Zoe Quinn's ex-boyfriend alleged that Quinn had a romantic relationship with a journalist for the video game news site Kotaku. This led to harassment of Quinn, including accusations that the relationship had led to positive coverage of Quinn's game. This in turn led to the birth of the Gamergate movement whose stated aim was to denounce a climate of corruption in gaming journalism. The conflict escalated when a number of gaming industry employees supportive of Quinn were subjected to harassment, threats of violence, and doxxing, leading some to flee their homes.The targets of the harassment included Quinn, feminist media critic Anita Sarkeesian, and indie game developer Brianna Wu. The harassment came from social media users, particularly those from 4chan and Reddit using the #gamergate hashtag. It was condemned by media sources as anti-feminist,[1] and heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny as well of journalistic integrity in the gaming community.

The social movement behind the Gamergate hashtag has stated that they are concerned with ethics in video game journalism, and identified themselves as participating in what they call a consumer revolt, with members requesting that ad providers pull support from sites critical of Gamergate. This decision and others have been widely criticized in the media as evidence that the ethics concerns are only a front for a culture war against people working to diversify the video game demographic. The Gamergate group's origins in the accusations and harassment of Quinn, its failure to identify significant ethical issues in games media, and its frequent criticism of game critics who discuss issues of gender, class, and politics in their reviews have also been cited as evidence for this position.

The events of Gamergate are attributed by its proponents to perceived conflicts of interest, dishonesty and a lack of professionalism in the gaming journalism industry. They cite examples such as the firing of Jeff Gerstmann over his review of the game "Kane and Lynch", the shutting down of "The Fine Young Capitalists'" web fundraiser and conflicts of interests at IndieCade and the Independent Games Festival. Such issues in gaming journalism in turn leads to reduced consumer awareness and greater difficulty to break through for independent game developers. Meanwhile, detractors attribute them to perceived changes or threats to the "gamer" identity as a result of the ongoing diversification and maturation of the gaming industry. As video games have become recognized as a popular art form, they have been subjected to social criticism and treated directly as a vehicle for such commentary. This move to recognize games as art is thought to have prompted opposition from traditional "hardcore" gamers who view games primarily as a form of entertainment.

There we go, simple as that. I haven't read the entire article but if the introduction sets the tone for it, then the entirety of it needs to be rewritten in such a way. Such a lack of neutrality threatens Wikipedia's integrity and should be dealt with swiftly. Akesgeroth (talk) 22:25, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

There is literally a discussion on this right above this, not to mention this version spins it into solely a pro-Gamergate point of view that is about the movement and not the controversy and is therefore not "neutral" per WP:NPOV.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:28, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Sigh, I actually would support this text that is a pipe dream--although a few sentences would need to be cut or whatever, I'll keep hoping. Tutelary (talk) 22:30, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

This is basically just the polar opposite of the lede from the GamerGater point of view. I don't see how it's any more neutral, not to mention there's no source to support the vast rewriting when the opposite is true for the present version.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:34, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

The original wording automatically implies that the group opposing Gamergate is right and overwhelmingly presents their side of the issue, unchallenged. Meanwhile, the "Pro-Gamergate" side is crudely summarized in one sentence whose only purpose is to introduce yet more "anti-Gamergate" arguments. I reworded it to include both sides and remove any suggestion that either side is right, so please state how you feel this version would be "less neutral". Akesgeroth (talk) 22:35, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Because this version is just a GamerGate spin on everything. You remove the mention of misogyny and harassment from the first paragraph, which is how everyone other than GamerGate itself sees things from the outside in, and gives undue weight to the GamerGate POV which for the past several months of discussing this subject is not found in the preponderance of reliable sources. It is not Wikipedia's job to serve as a spin doctor for the movement as you and everyone else who has not been on Wikipedia for months or years at a time coming here from KotakuInAction to use your old Wikipedia accounts to try to sway the article in your favor.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:38, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Who are these "everyone" you speak of Ryulong? Or are you saying that everyone that all of a sudden agrees with GG are suddenly a part of GG and therefor the "everyone" would not include them?--Thronedrei (talk) 16:02, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

The sentence "Detractors state that the movement is rooted in a culture war against women and the diversification of gaming culture." is still in the first paragraph. All I did was remove ", concerning misogyny and harassment in video game culture." because that part is not neutral but rather the side of the "anti-Gamergate" crowd, which is mentioned alongside the "pro-Gamergate" side, without supporting either side. Please read what is written before actually commenting on it. Akesgeroth (talk) 22:48, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

As per the reliable sources, the controversy is about misogyny and harassment. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:00, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Sorry but no. I have seen no reliable sources reporting this.--Thronedrei (talk) 06:33, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

It gets fixed sometimes, but it only lasts for a day or less usually. Somebody barges in saying, "No way, that's now how it happened! Nobody believes this!" and pretty soon the article is absurd again. The issue is that some editors feel there's a clinical, factual way to gauge when something is misogynistic, and Gamergate has fulfilled that, so we need to spend as much time as possible telling everyone how misogynistic it is. Consequently, we occasionally have people coming in to ask what Gamergate is even about, because the article has come to be written as 90% misogyny accusations and 10% half-hearted acceptance that stuff is happening.

I appreciate the re-write! I skimmed over it and see what you're going for, and I think it's a bit bulky - plus we need to make sure everything can be linked to a source. In any case, you'll need to hang around over an extended period if you'd like to have it and keep it, though. YellowSandals (talk) 22:37, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

I unfortunately have neither the time or inclination to debate this much further and edit the entire article. Rather, my intervention was aimed at expressing my concerns over neutrality and demonstrating that it would be easy to rewrite it without taking sides on the issue.Akesgeroth (talk) 22:42, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

These "fixes" are attempts by those in the GamerGate movement and not actual attempts at arguing for neutrality because "neutrality" in their mind, as is evident by this rewrite proposal, is one that is effectively and entirely biased in their favor, as Erik Kain pointed out months ago.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:46, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Presenting both sides equally is not biased in anyone's favor. Akesgeroth (talk) 22:51, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes it is, actually. Wikipedia does not present "both sides equally" — it presents positions in proportion to their prominence in reliable sources. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:58, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for trying! The article needs a lot of work in a lot of ways, but the controversy is highly ideological and Wikipedia has unfortunately been a battleground for the issue. YellowSandals (talk) 22:48, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

The claims about Quinn have been proven false repeatedly. The claims re: IGF and IndieCade are entirely unsourced. TFYC has nothing in particular to do with journalism ethics. Gerstmann got fired seven years ago at the behest of a major publisher, which GamerGate has been conspicuously unwilling to criticize thus far. In short, your rewrite proposal is not acceptable. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:58, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm sure somebody would start commenting on it if it wasn't for the fact that it happened SEVEN years ago. I wasn't even aware that this had happened until you brought it up.--Thronedrei (talk) 16:02, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Quit talking about other editors on this talk page or you risk being Sanctioned under Wikipedia:General sanctions/Gamergate. Dreadstar ☥ 02:00, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
There is nothing to be gained by entertaining single-purpose account after single-purpose account in thread after thread when all they do is post "this article sucks!" screeds. It just raises tempers, which as noted earlier is exactly what external forces are doing here intentionally. Hat these discussions or ignore them outright, we'll all be better off. Tarc (talk) 23:07, 2 November 2014 (UTC) Hear hear! Let us shun outside perspectives! For we do not need them. They are all fools. This article is nearly perfect. All we need now is an escalator and Time Machine and we can prove once and forever that Gamergate is wrong! In case you missed it, I'm joking. I know you guys like to write off the "legions of SPAs and sock puppets" as a bunch of conspiratorially connected evil-doers who want an evil, impartial article, but the sheer volatility of your reactions to these people does seem to drive most of them away. I think anyone who sticks around this thing must be a glutton for punishment. YellowSandals (talk) 23:40, 2 November 2014 (UTC) It's a general lack of enthusiasm at people with ten edits on their account coming here to make the same claims as everyone that came before them.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 23:42, 2 November 2014 (UTC) Ryulong, it does not matter whether someone has made 10 edits or 100 edits. They have just as much right as you do to come here and state their opinion. You are definitely biting Cla68 here. [[THEO!|User:Tjraptis20]] (talk) 02:04, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Good grief. How about I chime in here. I have more than 10 edits. I do not play video games and I do not belong to GamerGate or anti-GamerGate (and all editors here should not be leveling these kind of accusations at each other). I agree with Akesgeroth that the current lede is not sufficiently neutral and his/her proposed lede is better. Do we need an RfC or can we work through this? Cla68 (talk) 01:52, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Akesgeroth's proposed lead is not supported by the sources used throughout the article and very little sources out there to even support several of the statements made. This effectively gives undue weight to the minority opinion in these matters. Neutrality isn't "both sides get equal treatment". WP:NPOV contains the following tenets: "Avoid stating opinions as facts", "Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts", "Avoid stating facts as opinions", "Prefer nonjudgmental language", "Indicate the relative prominence of opposing views". In all, this comes down to the fact that the media at large have decried GamerGate as an anti-feminist and misogynistic backlash at a maturing industry that they've been insular about for years, and the cries from GamerGate supporters that say calling the movement and controversy misogynistic and anti-feminist as is stated by the majority of reliable sources somehow contravenes these tenets of Wikipedia which no one bothers to read because in their mind "neutral" means "50/50" and not "present it as it's presented elsewhere" because they automatically assume the media is 100% against them.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 02:09, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

The problem here isn't that the wikipedia article reports that the majority of the media make the claim that GG is about misogyny; the problem is that the wikipedia article is written in a way that leads the reader to believe that the truth is being reported. As for "equal representation", that is a misconception. What people are asking for is that wikipedia directly reports on what has actually been said. I.E if it can be proven by linking to actual evidence -- that GG is about journalist corruption, then this should be mentioned in the article or at least that GG supporters make this claim. This however isn't what Wikipedia is doing, Wikipedia is just reporting what news outlets have written. Since this article is actually about GG's claims that there is media corruption, only using "established" news media as a "reliable source" (lol) is bogus. Why would established media write articles about how they themselves are corrupt? See how that works? As such, if Wikipedia is only going to be based on these types of "reliable" sources, then it would be better if the whole Wikipedia article was purged as a whole since it does not actually report actual information.--Thronedrei (talk) 16:09, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

No. The problem here is that POV pushers advocating for the GamerGate movement are insistent in denying that multiple news sources, that are not the video game websites that the GamerGate movement is fighting against, all have come to the same conclusion and that conclusion must not, according to the POV pushing editors, be attributed as a fact. You cannot go conspiracy theory and claim that all media is against GamerGate and therefore only the sources that the GamerGate editors put forward, namely anything put out by the extreme right wing or conservative leaning news media that are going "GAMERGATE IS ABOUT FEMINISTS BULLYING POOR MALE GAMERS" as has been consistently the case, are allowed here is not how Wikipedia works. We are not mitigating the fact that misogyny and sexism and harassment and death threats have been intertwined with GamerGate more than anything about its claims of corruption in video game journalism just because the GamerGate movement wants to insist that these statements on misogyny are merely the opinions of the authors at multiple different news media, such as the BBC, CNN, The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Guardian, etc. rather than just the Gawker windmills being tilted at.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:38, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Wait, are you making the claim that if a news outlet reprots something, then this magically becomes facts? Is that what you are saying Ryulong? You see, what many in GG argue is that established media has a vested interest in this. For instance the gaming Journalistic sites could be said to be extreme far left in their views. And what "old media" outlets report on this if not the far left ones? This of course suggest that these media outlets have a vested interest in supporting their journalist "friends" on the Internet. Also, if you actually watch any of these reports you will notice a distinct lack of actual representation of both sides. These media outlets only invite people that claim they have been harassed or in some other way are already famous. In an post (that was deleted) I mentioned this briefly, but I wont go into details this time... but you can check yourself. These reports are all about the "victim" getting a free reign to tell their story, the interviewer never asking any tough questions and basically presenting the idea that what these people claim are facts, this despite no evidence of this actually being presented in the show itself. So, no -- based on their actions these media outlets can not be trusted to be objective.

Also, it is funny how you mention that "extreme right" media articles wont be allowed on here as source, then you seemingly champion extreme left media articles?--Thronedrei (talk) 00:41, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm making the claim that if fifty news outlets come to the same independent conclusion that it's probably a fact. The BBC, New York Times, Guardian, and CNN should have no vested interest in what a bunch of video game news websites have to say about anything. You are seriously going "IT'S A MEDIA CONSPIRACY AGAINST GAMERS" here, as well as denying the fact that the people being discussed in this article have even been affected by gross attacks because of GamerGate, leaving me with no real way of refuting anything you say. I'm not going to be responding to you any further.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 01:34, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

What you call independent I call collusion. Non of these articles ever present any real evidence of their claims and they all are written in pretty much the same way, even using the same jargon. Journalists are friends, they add each other on facebook and twitter. How can you call them independent when they are fraternizing on social media? The BBC, New York Times, Guardian, and CNN are all far left leaning media outlets with a great invested interest in supporting other left leaning media stay in power. So it isn't as much of a media conspiracy against gamers as it is just "business as usual" as far as media is concerned. Its all about the money and staying in control of the narrative. That is what I am saying. Again none of these media outlets have provided any evidence that these people that were harassed were so because of GamerGate. Wuu posted on Twitter. Check her interviews yourself where she admits harassing GG supporters. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1U1cT72JBc&t=2m57s She thought it was funny. Yes, posting things that can be considered harassment is indeed funny? Or: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETVcInunAss&t=2m4s Making the claim that she was harassed due to Gamergate is silly, since if she was harassed, it was because she was harassing people right?--Thronedrei (talk) 19:42, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

As I said previously, it's clear you're convinced that there's a mass media conspiracy against gamers so there's nothing more to say on this. Or your complaints about Wu's gamer bro account or whatever it was that people keep calling a sockpuppet when she admitted it was her from the beginning.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:56, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

And I will explain it to you again; I never said Media was conspiring against Gamers per say, I was saying that media supports it's own. It ties in with the whole 'media corruption' GamerGate is trying to uncover. By the by, isn't your claim that I'm claiming that "Media has a conspiracy going" actually supporting the notion that GG is about concerned about ethical issues in Gamer media?--Thronedrei (talk) 12:29, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

This is still a conspiracy theory where you are tilting at windmills.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:16, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

And as far as I'm aware nothing you've written has been deleted. It might be in one of the dozen archives this page has but it does not look like anything was deleted.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 01:38, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I made a claim about Brianna Wu, while able to prove this linking to youtube interviews he has done, I did not actually link to it in my post. So it was deleted and I was given "Final warning" for violating Wikipedia's biographies of living persons policy. Which also made me wonder, how can a first warning be a final warning?--Thronedrei (talk) 19:42, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Swedish media outlet "NyheterIdag" reports on Gamergate and journalism corruption

Consensus has been reached that these swedish newspapers are not reliable sources (3 against, 1 for) Avono♂ (talk) 14:48, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Speaking of reliable sources, recently Swedish meida have been writing about Gamergate and about how media is trying to push and spin a false narrative. The articles can be found here: http://nyheteridag.se/svenska-dagbladet-jamfor-gamergate-med-breivik/ And here: http://nyheteridag.se/nu-har-gamergate-har-natt-sverige-visar-sig-att-svensk-press-ar-en-del-av-korruptionen/ Wikipedia wanted some reliable sources and there you have it.--Thronedrei (talk) 11:37, 3 November 2014 (UTC) Can you show this has a reputation for reliable information in Sweeden? Halfhat (talk) 11:40, 3 November 2014 (UTC) So I've only taken a brief look at this and Google Translate isn't always the most reliable, but... the alleged issue "discovered" is that a Swedish journalist is Facebook friends with two people they interviewed. Really? Seriously? That's what the movement is going to hang its hat on? Because that's not meaningful evidence of anything. Facebook is widely used for personal and professional networking and being Facebook friends is not even evidence, much less proof, of anything unethical or improper. I'm not particularly familiar with Swedish media, but this outlet's Twitter account has fewer than 700 followers, while the major newspapers in Sweden have 70,000. Suggests to me that, at best, it's a marginal source, and the claims made seem rather outlandish. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:47, 3 November 2014 (UTC) per WP:FORUM please refrain from posting your personal opinion. If the source should be included at all then it should only mention that fact. Avono♂ (talk) 11:58, 3 November 2014 (UTC) Discussing a source's reliability and the credibility of a claim in the context of whether material is suitable for inclusion is precisely what an article talk page is for. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 12:00, 3 November 2014 (UTC) The site has been referenced before on a small page, I couldn't find much on it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czon#External_links and it's meant to be linked on this page, but no clue where Halfhat (talk) 12:02, 3 November 2014 (UTC) Also, these are both unsigned editorial opinions. If we decide Nyheter Idag's opinion on GamerGate is notable, I would not object to using this article as an example of the opposition to the mainstream POV. I would strenuously object to including any reference of the absurd claim that there is any meaningful ethical issue with being Facebook friends with someone. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 12:10, 3 November 2014 (UTC) The claim is absurd? Naturally one can add people on facebook without truly being friends with them, but does that mean the point isn't a valid one? If a person is friends with another person then they are immaterially compromised right? The same reasoning need to be applied in this as in court cases. You can't have friends of a suspect do the actual investigation of the suspect right? So when a journalist writes an article concerning his friends and he paints them up as heroes... then that article could no longer be considered a reliable source right? "NyheterIdag" also mention that Swedish media (much like how other media have compared GG to ISIS) have compared GG to "Breivik". Breivik is a convicted bomber and massmurderer in Norway for those of you that aren't familiar with his work. So NyheterIdag" was pointing out the absurd way media was handling the GG issue.--Thronedrei (talk) 13:36, 3 November 2014 (UTC) Yes, the claim is absurd. No, journalists do not become "materially compromised" by being connected with someone on a social network commonly used for professional and personal networking. Journalism has nothing to do with legal proceedings. What next, "a journalist had a drink in a bar with two developers during PAX, so s/he is biased"? Journalists are not monks, robots or jurors and there has never been any ethical, moral or legal prohibition against having professional social relationships with your peers, colleagues, etc. In fact, a significant amount of reporting would never take place if not for the development of such relationships. How do you think reporters gain the trust of sources, develop deeper insights into the issues of what they're covering or make the contacts that aren't listed on someone's website? They, yes, talk to people in social gatherings. Real reporting doesn't take place at staged press conferences — it takes place after hours when your source has had a couple beers. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 13:44, 3 November 2014 (UTC) Either way it really doesn't matter, so please stop this. Halfhat (talk) 13:57, 3 November 2014 (UTC) A journalists job is to report information and news, not propaganda and opinions. If said journalists is actually part of the news themselves or friends with the object of the article, then they can no longer be considered objective which should in turn disqualify them as a reliable source in the case of the news subject. If a journalist had a drink with somebody then no, that would not disqualify them, if said journalist had a drink with a person and then sex or something, then THAT would immediately disqualify them as a reliable source. Interviews that are given to friends can not be seen as anything other than just advertising. So to answer your unasked question -- no, I would rather these interviews go away. If they go away then these people that give these interviews would be forced to talk to actually unbiased journalists if they wanted to inform people of something. Journalists are not robots, but they should only deliver facts, not propaganda. Andy journalists that express personal opinions should be fired!--Thronedrei (talk) 14:36, 3 November 2014 (UTC) per Nyheter_Idag on metapedia (spam backlisted) it seems to be a very small fringe newspaper, therefore it isn't reliable. However I do not find the claims absurd its just dosn't have enough evidence and can therefore not be inserted. Avono♂ (talk) 12:15, 3 November 2014 (UTC) The article mentions the newspaper "Aftonbladet". Aftonbladet is far left newspaper. Of course pretty much all the major newspapers in Sweden are far left, so I guess you can't call them "fringe". Only reason why "nyheteridag" would be considered fringe, is because it isn't far left.--Thronedrei (talk) 13:36, 3 November 2014 (UTC) even if the news paper isn't "fringe" it is still not a reliable source, we have to wait until this "connection" is repeated by other outlets. Avono♂ (talk) 14:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC) But in this case it is pretty much an impossibility. All the major newspapers in Sweden are faaaar left leaning, some like "Expressen" have even been reported to... well, just do a search for "Swedish Expressen" and you'll know what I'm talking about. That said, In Sweden all the major newspapers are pretty much one and the same. They are all "facebook friends" so to speak. So expecting some other news outlet in Sweden report on this is pretty much impossible since in doing so they would report on their friends right? As with everything else though, I feel this should be included in the article at least as a "A Swedish outlet media reports on Journalist corruption in other Swedish outlet media regarding GG" Because we don't actually need another outlet to report the same thing for us to include in the article that a Swedish media has reported this.--Thronedrei (talk) 15:09, 3 November 2014 (UTC) though luck then since No Original Research is allowed we have to just wait till the "impossible" happens. Avono♂ (talk) 16:47, 3 November 2014 (UTC) Well, how about this article written on the minor Swedish Internet news outlet "motpol"? http://www.motpol.nu/oskorei/2014/10/01/gamergate/ I feel it gives a pretty balanced view on things as it also points out the far left agenda that dominates the Swedish media. Or how about this article also from NyheterIdag: http://nyheteridag.se/gamergate-nu-reser-sig-spelnordarna-upp-mot-eliten/--Thronedrei (talk) 18:17, 3 November 2014 (UTC) While this seems to be taken care of, for future reference I'll confirm that nyheteridag.se is a fringe newspaper in Sweden, founded by the extreme right. The same is true for "motpol", which is a neo-nazi site. The description of all the major newspapers in Sweden as far left leaning also doesn't match reality. Ratatosk Jones (talk) 21:45, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Straw Poll- Remove the political views sections within GamerGate activism

I don't see how it adds any value, just a lot of bloat and unneeded opinion. We don't need every thought on it ever to have it's own section. Halfhat (talk) 15:06, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Vote

• it doesnt make sense as "political views" under "gamergate activism" (but "gamergate activism" doesnt make much sense itself) - the content is probably appropriate for a "reception and analysis" types section. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:50, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Discussion

No.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:25, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

If you have nothing to add then there's no point saying anything. Halfhat (talk) 21:57, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

TheRedPenOfDoom Have you seen how long that section is, what does it really add, the article is unusably long. Halfhat (talk) 13:43, 4 November 2014 (UTC) Ignore this comment please HalfHat 20:34, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

@OpGamerGate

There doesn't seem to be a section on the little bit with @OpGamerGate, where "Anonymous" wanted to take down GamerGate, and after another "Anonymous" started looking into it, they vanished from the face of the earth? --DSA510 Pls No Hate 04:50, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

No reports on it. The OpGamerGate twitter account was managed by people not really considered "Anonymous", in that they're pretty hated by most of them Loganmac (talk) 04:56, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I've heard that AnonOps was furious about this. There is the eternal question of who is considered "Anonymous", though. Also this video, again, made by "Anonymous": YouTube -Anonymous Message to #GamerGate (There's another one which was bait, took the anti-gg side and then turned out to be a joke, just search "gamergate anon" on youtube)--DSA510 Pls No Hate 05:11, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

But on the point of this and the article, I don't think its notable yet, since it was shut down so fast. However again, this does not rule out third party trolling/harassment. --DSA510 Pls No Hate 05:11, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Do we have any reliable sources on it, other than the oblique references to trolls from The Washington Post's interviews? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:12, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

It happened but it hasn't been reported in the media - no reliable source. Jgm74 (talk) 12:02, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

HEADLINE: Today nothing happened. I am confused at why someone would think we should/would cover something that didn't happen? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:40, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

If there was messages then something did happen. Messages were sent right? How can we cover "threats" sent on twitter if we don't cover threats posted on youtube? Or do we only cover treats if the one being threatened cries on media?--Thronedrei (talk) 17:04, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

No one bothered covering "the messages" either. Wikipedia does not run on internet gossip. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:26, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

If the BBC ran an article saying the sky was red, would it be acceptable under WP:RS? --DSA510 Pls No Hate 05:28, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Gamergate and the politicization of absolutely everything

Gamergate in a nutshell here [1]. I posted a template of issues a few weeks ago. This is another neutral observation of issues that define Gamergate controversy. --DHeyward (talk) 20:12, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

That article gives voice and balance to what is missing from WP's article. The WP article is skewed very much to one side. Ezra Klein's piece highlights the fractured nature and politics that drive the coverage and POV. Our article is not a NPOV representation. --DHeyward (talk) 20:28, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

This article has been brought up before. I personally think it's among one of the more valuable examinations of Gamergate so far, and I agree with a lot of it. However, it doesn't address many specific details regarding the movement or controversy. It would be nice for a quote, but I think the consensus was that it doesn't expand a whole lot on any hard information. While I agree with the take it presents, it's also one of only a handful that describes Gamergate as a symptom of widening social biases. Most articles so far just focus on moral accusations. YellowSandals (talk) 20:31, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

"18. And no one should dismiss the very real, very dangerous harassment that's happening under Gamergate's banner." is what I have been saying for a month now, yes. Tarc (talk) 20:34, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Notice that nobody has disagreed with you, Tarc. YellowSandals (talk) 20:39, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Um, every editor that has ever tried to water down the opening line of "is a controversy which started in August 2014, concerning misogyny and harassment in video game culture" has disagreed with me, actually. Tarc (talk) 20:47, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't realize "harassment" was synonymous with "misogyny". In which case, yes. I guess we have been arguing about that. What I meant, however, using normal English, is that not even Gamergate has been downplaying the impact the harassment has had on their movement. They acknowledge it and have been intentionally trying to distance themselves from it! A lot of articles discuss this and are doing their best to prevent Gamergate from establishing that distance. YellowSandals (talk) 20:51, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

The thing is, the sources cited don't really buy into the "Gamergater-who-isn't-a-harasser" shtick, they are all painted with one broad brush despite the pleas to the contrary. Again, that isn't the Wikipedia's problem to address. Tarc (talk) 21:08, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

The article by Klein just did. He didn't filter out the uncomfortable voices either. Just matter of factly stated the issue. It isn't all misogyny and harassment. He also didn't dismiss those aspects. --DHeyward (talk) 21:23, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Tarc, I know you and the others don't like it when I make a controversial statement about another group to explain how your logic is wrong, but it seems to hit home so I'll do it again.

"The thing is, the sources cited don't really buy into the "homosexual-who-doesn't-have-AIDS" shtick, they are all painted with one broad brush despite the pleas to the contrary. Again, that isn't the Wikipedia's problem to address."

Okay, so if this had been about a group I assume you have no qualms with, you can see how your broad generalization doesn't feel like justice. I remind there was a time when it was broadly thought that AIDS was a homosexual disease, though we know better now. You need to understand, you are playing the role of a moral guardian. Your arguments are the same as the moral guardians before you. What you're doing is not revolutionary. It's tired, and played out, and thousands of years old. Additionally, you're using the "No True Scotsman" fallacy incorrectly. This is not "No True Scotsman". You're making a negative stereotype about a group of people, and then you're attacking the stereotype. Nobody is saying, "No true Gamergate supporter commits harassment so therefore harassers are excluded from the movement" here. We are saying it's biased to depict a movement using its most negative possible stereotype while using Wikipedia's voice to do so. Repeatedly, I have merely asked that we attribute points of view. YellowSandals (talk) 21:31, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

These comparisons do not 'hit a nerve,' and the 'I'm annoying people, so that proves I must be right!' attitude is simply juvenile. How can you possibly think a comparison like this is a good idea? Aside from being pointlessly inflammatory, it's not even remotely accurate, because "all homosexuals have AIDS" is not a perspective that is presented in even a tiny minority of reliable sources. This is essentially the WP:RS version of 'if all your friends jumped off a bridge, would you, too?' The problem here is that sources who are in the habit of reporting as fact things like 'all homosexuals have AIDS' very quickly gain a reputation for being unreliable (as Brietbart has, in fact, for its own habit of publishing completely fabricated stories to harm political opponents.) -- TaraInDC (talk) 21:50, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

All you're espousing is the use of negative stereotypes to denigrate groups you disagree with, following a bandwagon to behave as though that's acceptable. Yes, the majority of public opinion doesn't hold this view of AIDS any longer, but several decades ago that was the case. This kind of thing is why it's important to remain neutral and write in terms of perspectives, rather than in concrete formats of "this group is wrong because everyone agrees they're wrong". We have a situation where gaming journals are declaring that gamers are dead and this is referenced to a group that was blamed for the Columbine Shooting and other violent sprees. Their critics have been publicly lauded and given prime television time to explain what's wrong with gamers today. Anita Sarkeesian and other critics have been calling gamers misogynists for a while now, using the backlash against that to fuel politicization of the topic as this article discusses. But yet you want to depict this battle as one of good versus evil. You want to throw gasoline on a fire - that's all you're doing with your contributions here. We could write from a neutral perspective and not add to the vitriol, but Wikipedia has failed in that so far. YellowSandals (talk) 22:09, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

please stay focused on this article and on the sources talking about this subject and NOT on your presumptions of other editors motives (or wildly inappropriate analogies) -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:18, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

You have used every possible form of mental gymnastics to justify writing one group in this controversy as the bad guy. You are presently writing an un-readable article that has very little relevant information in it. The vendetta against Gamergate is basically killing this thing. They see themselves as the victims here, and you want to keep attacking them. I'm telling you to knock it off. Do it on your blog if you have to. But for Wikipedia, stick to the facts. This is not the place to denigrate groups you dislike or to report negative stereotypes as being factually honest. YellowSandals (talk) 22:22, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

It's not a "negative stereotype" - it's an observation of what the group has mostly done. Repeating "it's about ethics in gaming journalism" like it's a magic talisman does not provide a shield for harassment, and the fact that the movement has not raised any meaningful issues of "ethics in gaming journalism" in months is something that reliable outside observers have taken judicial notice of. It is not "stereotyping" to define a group by what it does rather than by what it says. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:27, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Hat off-topic WP:FORUM. Dreadstar ☥ 23:55, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
You know, have you ever argued with Neo-Nazis? I get around the internet. I have. They're frustrating. You know what they say about their stubborn, bigoted views? They say they're just making factual observations about other people. Like they've got the world figured out. Selfish ideologues are all the same, and the rhetoric is identical across the entire political spectrum. Nobody bills themselves as the bad guys. Not the KKK, not the Nazis - nobody. So when you attack a group of people through a medium that's supposed to be neutral, why is your justification the same repetitive, droning nonsense I hear from Neo-Nazis explaining their misanthropic opinions? Being able to dislike a group for reasons you can justify in your head does not make you superior to any ideologue or inquisitor before you. Any fool who convinces himself he's above such mistakes will quickly fall to those mistakes. This article is too ideological, and it's written on the attack against a specific social group. This is not appropriate. YellowSandals (talk) 22:36, 4 November 2014 (UTC) I decline to further discuss this issue with someone who compares me to a neo-Nazi. Have a nice day. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:41, 4 November 2014 (UTC) I compared you to a human. YellowSandals (talk) 22:46, 4 November 2014 (UTC) No one has disagreed that it's an element of GamerGate. Your argument that it's the only thing or that it's primarily about any single thing is addressed quite nicely in that article as the view of social justice warriors. There are equally narrow views that GG is only about journalism ethics. There are many elements and facets of gamergate. Balance and NPOV require a more overall view of issues brought up by GG, including harassment, game journal ethics, game developer ethics, role of politics in gaming, etc, etc. --DHeyward (talk) 21:01, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Where are the sources that focus on the "but ethics" aspect of gamergate? Cause there are dozens and dozens that focus on the harassment and per WP:UNDUE it will take at least several that focus on something other than the harassment to merit coverage that does not almost entirely focus on the harassment.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:05, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

By neatly discounting conservative sources, there are only liberal sources left. This article gives credence to the use of Breitbart as a source as the argument is political. --DHeyward (talk) 21:10, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

There is really only one conservative source that has been discounted here and that's Breitbart (website) due to their history.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:21, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

And that is not due to their history of being conservative, it is due to their history of not being reliable. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:54, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Not according to Ezra Klein and this piece. It finds Breitbart reliable enough to cite and gives voice to pro-GG POV instead of only anti-GG POV. Klein is hardly a conservative and is very reliable. He took Breitbart on its face as a reliable source for GamerGate. His judgement is what should add Breitbart as a reliable source for this article. --DHeyward (talk) 23:24, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

WP:RSN. Best of luck. -- TaraInDC (talk) 23:26, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

RSN is not the place for case-by-case assessments for inclusion. Klein is reliable. He cites specific Breitbart published articles, not Breitbart. Per the guideline, case-by-case reliability applies and use by Klein and Vox is a compelling argument for inclusion. --DHeyward (talk) 23:53, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

WP:RSN is the perfect place to get an independent assessment of a questionable source, case-by-case or no. There's an existing consensus, and not just on this page, that Brietbart is not a reliable source. No amount of discussion at the article talkpage level can override that: you need to make a case at WP:RSN. If your argument that another source mentioning Breitbart articles is enough to justify including them in this article is sound, you should have no problem convincing editors there. -- TaraInDC (talk) 00:14, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

(ec) You must have missed this on your way to 18: "14. It's worth stopping for a moment to say that Gamergate, as well as the reaction against it, isn't any one thing. It includes horrifying, probably criminal, harassment against pretty much any women who dare oppose it. It's partly an argument about what kinds of games the gaming press should cover — and, by extension, what kinds of games developers should make. It has members who want clearer disclosure policies in gaming journalism. It has a lot of people who joined because they hate feminism and internet "social justice" warriors. And it has many people, on both sides, who are far surer about who they're fighting than what they're fighting about." --DHeyward (talk) 21:06, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I'd be in favour of putting something up from this. But more importantly I think we need to strip a lot out of the current article. Also I thought I posted this, did I forget or something? HalfHat 21:09, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

The lead should be updated to include a wordsmithed version of "14. It's worth stopping for a moment to say that Gamergate, as well as the reaction against it, isn't any one thing. It includes horrifying, probably criminal, harassment against pretty much any women who dare oppose it. It's partly an argument about what kinds of games the gaming press should cover — and, by extension, what kinds of games developers should make. It has members who want clearer disclosure policies in gaming journalism. It has a lot of people who joined because they hate feminism and internet "social justice" warriors. And it has many people, on both sides, who are far surer about who they're fighting than what they're fighting about." It's a neutral account in a reliable source and has been covered elsewhere in multiple sources including a game developer. --DHeyward (talk) 03:53, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Nature of the controversy

It seems to me that these two sentences are contradictory:

Gamergate (sometimes referred to as the hashtag #gamergate) is a controversy which started in August 2014, concerning misogyny and harassment in video game culture.

The controversy began when indie game developer Zoe Quinn's ex-boyfriend alleged that Quinn had a romantic relationship with a journalist for the video game news site Kotaku.

If the controversy is about misogyny and harassment, it can't have began with the blog post, since the blog post wasn't about those things. Either the controversy began with the harassment, or the controversy is also about ethics or something else directly related to the initial blog post.

Thoughts? Λυδαcιτγ 15:21, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

The blog post caused extraordinarily vicious and widespread harassment of Quinn, and that is generally regarded as the start of the controversy. Would you prefer "it began after indie game devleoper..."? -- TaraInDC (talk) 15:25, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Misogyny and harassment issue came up after the allegations at Quinn, so logically the controversy cannot solely be about misogyny and harassment. --MASEM (t) 15:50, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

The controversy as described in RS centres on misogyny and harassment. The article doesn't even say it's solely about that. Not sure what is being argued here. Does anyone have specific content changes they want? — Strongjam (talk) 15:55, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, the 'people calling the things gamergate does misogynistic' part came after the 'gamergate doing the things people called misogynistic' part. That's how cause and effect works. That doesn't mean that the controversy isn't about misogyny and harassment. -- TaraInDC (talk) 16:07, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Accusing someone of a conflict of interest is not inherently misogynistic. Yes, the pattern of behavior extrapolated back would suggest it is part of the same, but again, when you have a debate between two sides, one arguing against the statue quo, it is the norm to talk about their side first even if it is the minority view. Denying that ethics are involved even if the proGG claims are not thoroughly documented, and weighing heavily on the press's opinion of the matter considers that claim false, is not how one writes a neutral article. --MASEM (t) 16:11, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Of course accusing somebody of a conflict of interest is not inherently misogynistic, but that doesn't prove a thing any more than the first question in your RFC does. This isn't as simple as 'they accused a woman of doing a bad thing - that's misogyny!' no matter how much the gaters in their echo chambers are telling themselves that's the case. The problem is who they accused, and how, and on what evidence, and what happened after the accusations - the death threats, the rape threats, the midnight calls to parents screaming 'you're daughter's a whore!' To an outside observer it's clear that the 'ethics' angle is a thin justification for the harassment of a woman. This is how social commentary works: people making reasoned observations. Those are the concerns that the sources talking about this issue are expressing. That's the reasoning being given for describing this in the way the vast majority of our sources do. A single source noting this harassment and discussing its effects and implications would not prove anything, but in aggregate, the large body of sources all discussing the same issues and doing no more than name-checking the 'but ethics!' counter argument do demonstrate that this is not a controversy about ethics.

The gleeful dissection of Quinn's sex life was never about ethics. That claim is not merely 'not thoroughly documented,' it's not 'documented' at all. As I've said before, there's no room on WP for playing devil's advocate. You need to use sources and policy to back up your claim. A personal theory for how the absurd drama gamergaters created about Zoe Quinn's sex life might not be misogynistic isn't going to cut it. If you'd like to use the fact that the harassment came before the backlash as evidence that gamergate is not about harassment, provide sources that show that there was good reason to be 'concerned' about Quinn's 'conflict of interest.' We're not interested in your opinions, only what you can prove. -- TaraInDC (talk) 16:29, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

NPOV is all about playing Devil's Advocate - trying to present all sides of an argument in balance to the coverage in the sources. And it is very much against NPOV to shoo away any proGG discussion given the fact that mainstream sources have attempted to provide clear rational discussion on their side. As such, we cannot pretend their ethics argument doesn't exist and favor the popular opinion of misogyny over that. --MASEM (t) 16:47, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

No, it absolutely is not. Playing devils advocate involves constructing a case to defend someone or something. As you did it above it constitutes original research, not a proper application of WP:NPOV. Presenting the sources we have, weighted appropriately and avoiding fringe views, is not the same thing as 'playing devil's advocate.' So your explanation for how a mass harassment campaign against an indie dev (and, importantly, not against the journalist who supposedly gave her preferential coverage) 'might' not be misogynistic isn't helpful. You need to make your case with sources, and not merely by 'playing devil's advocate.' We're not pretending the ethics argument doesn't exist, we're just not pretending that it's what the controversy is about, because per our sources it is not. -- TaraInDC (talk) 16:56, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

What kind of harassment excactly? Criticism is not harassment. General negativity is also not harassment. Remember, when stating harassment, it has to be specified. Also what needs to be specified is the percentage of people committing harassment. --Artman40 (talk) 15:34, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

What WP policy are you talking about that requires all of that? — Strongjam (talk) 15:55, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Threatening to rape and murder a person is harassment, as well as criminal. Threats directed towards a woman because of her gender makes it misogyny. The nature of the "controversy", i.e. the title of this article, is centralized on those misogynist threats directed at Ms. Quinn, the initial target, and subsequent threats made to media and other types who condemned the harassment. Tarc (talk) 16:10, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Threats directed towards a woman because of her gender makes it misogyny. That the threats were made towards Quinn et al because they were women is not proven. It's a pattern of threats against primarily women, so it is likely misogyny, but you cannot state that factually just based on a pattern. --MASEM (t) 16:13, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I can and will state such a thing, as will our article. If reliable sources call it misogyny, then that is sufficient for our standards. The opposition by a handful here to this point is long past the pedantic stage. Tarc (talk) 16:17, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Then you are willingly going to violate NPOV. The court of public opinion does not make it fact for Wikipedia's purposes. --MASEM (t) 16:22, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

It does not violate NPOV, it preserves it and protects it from attempts to give undue weight to a minor point of view. I find it baffling how you can so mis-apply basic Wikipedia policy here. We write articles based on what the sources say; if a preponderance of reliable sources say that Gamergate is about harassment of women and not about ethics, then that is what we say. We're not declaring it is true, we're just reflecting what the prevailing consensus of sources is saying about he topic. Remember the old verifiable, not truth canard. Tarc (talk) 16:30, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

The "verified, not truth" creed readily applies to much of the proGG side - I can tell you want they want, ala "the truth", but I cannot verify it because of the lack of sources, hence why we can't cover it. And we can more than certainly verify that the press considers much of GG misogynistic and the like, easily verified. But one has to recognize that the press are speaking their opinion on the matter, and have the most volume here as the court of public opinion which does not make it true, which "verified, not truth" does not apply to, that's where the core of NPOV comes in. The press have all jumped on their opinion based on the pattern, but there's nothing to back it up. Take the École Polytechnique massacre again - the public opinion on that is decidedly that it was a misogynistic-driven attack, but our article reflects the fact that the reason he did what he did is not clear with strong assurity. That's the same situation here - no one has looked at the actual people involved (or in fact identified them), so we should be writing that in the same clinically neutral manner described all views with a balance dictated by the predominance of the press side from the sourcing. --MASEM (t) 16:43, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

That's the polar opposite of what "verifiability, not truth" means. No one cares what you think is true here, nor what I think is true. All we can do is reflect how reliable sources report on the matter. It doesn't matter if the anonymous crowd are truly misogynistic in their intent, all that matters is that the vast majority of reliable sources characterize the GG movement as such, and that characterization is verifiable. Tarc (talk) 17:32, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

However there is a systematic bias in play as the sourcing that is against the proGG is nearly all opinionated against it, a case outlined in WP:BIAS. If the press reported a suspected criminal of being guilty before the legal case was complete, we on WP would not report the criminal as guilty but note the press has. That's the same we should be (and for the most part are) doing, per Strongjam's comment below), but it is getting very close to falling past that point. --MASEM (t) 17:39, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

What nonsense. The only WP:BIAS is that a bunch of geeky western internet trolls caused enough harassment and enough sources blabbering on ABOUT FUCKING VIDEO GAMES that they have a more complete article about the trouble they have caused than most leaders of countries in Africa, Asia, or South America. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:24, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

If calling the actions misogynistic is a WP:NPOV issue, then of all the uses of misogyny in the article there are only two that I think might fail:

• Because these discussions often featured verbal attacks, misogynistic harassment of Quinn and others
• Upon additional threats towards Sarkeesian, Wu, and Day, the international media focused on GamerGate's predilection for violent, misogynistic threats and its inability to present any coherent message for positive change.

The rest all are either attributed to people, or clearly summarizing what a number of commentators say. I don't think this is a huge POV issue and could be easily fixed if this is what the issue is. — Strongjam (talk) 17:05, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, right now the article does a decent job avoiding stating it as fact (outside of the above, and the first lede sentence), but we're at the cliff edge and need to be careful and aware it's very easy to fall from that. --MASEM (t) 17:39, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Cut it out, all of you. Can you not see that just warring over neutrality has made this article a bloated unusable mess? The article isn't even readable. Neutrality matters, but other things matter too.HalfHat 16:53, 4 November 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Halfhat (talk • contribs)

If this article were really well written, you know what it would do? It would open with a lead that quickly summarizes the controversy in a chronological order, properly and impartially attributing points of view - that means without directly accusing any one side of ethical or moral wrongdoing. The lead wouldn't say journalism is bent, and it wouldn't say Gamergate is misogynist; it would say "these people hold these stances".

Afterward, the article would be organized in a logical fashion with neutral headers that let the reader know what they're about to read. We would not place Gamergate supporters under their own special header labelled "Role of misogyny" with a picture of a Gamergate supporter under there - we would just have articles that read "Harassment", "Media response", "Political commentary", and the like. Headers that could go any direction and that could be used to sort out any opinion or important development regardless of how vague or specific.

For example, under a "Harassment" header, we might start by explaining what happened with Zoe, drop in some details, if any, about revenge harassment against Gamergate (because no side has been immaculate, thank you), carry on with the additional harassment issues the press have brought up since the initial ones, then make a sub-header explaining police response to these threats and how they've been handled - if possible, how it may affect handling online threats in the future. LOGICAL INFORMATION A READER WILL WANT TO KNOW FOLLOWING THIS INFO. You see how having sane, neutral headers could allow us to actually organize the page!

A bigger thing is, not everyone coming to this page is a Gamergate enemy or supporter. A lot of people coming here just want to know what Gamergate is and how it impacts THEIR PERSONAL LIFE. They don't care whether or not certain Wiki editors think that Gamergate is a bunch of misogynistic hobgoblins, because whether or not the movement was forged in the fires of Mount Doom is kind of irrelevant if the article doesn't explain why any of this is even important to anyone in the first place! And presently it does a terrible job of explaining how it's relevant to anyone! Because it focuses so exclusively on establishing Gamergate as evil hobgoblins!

I would really love if it we could just agree to establish a straightforward article. However, we can't seem to get over the ideological hurdle that there is evil at work and that it must be exposed. As if some of us don't realize that people are just clever chimps and that, if anything, there's a great deal more knee-jerk emotional reactions than nefarious plans - at least as far as anyone knows, until we can otherwise reveal Dr. Claw is behind all of it. YellowSandals (talk) 18:30, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I really feel like I need to place particular emphasis on this: Whether or not you think Gamergate is misogynist is useless information to anyone who does not care to be part of the conflict. It is a moral judgement that provides NO factual information to a reader and it doesn't explain anything to anyone who doesn't instantly believe how "factual" that moral accusation is. By focusing so much on the moral particulars - that's what's made this article completely useless to any readers. The average person does not come to a Wiki page to see, "Oh, the KKK are immoral bigots! Great! That's all I needed!" They come to learn about how and why the KKK was formed and other factual details they won't hear from a frothing idiot who knows nothing more than that "the KKK is bigots 'cause they done bigot things". YellowSandals (talk) 18:57, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Misogynist thing is misogynist. Your moral judgement of that is your own. Artw (talk) 19:13, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Whether or not something is misogynist is determined entirely by context! Such is the nature of moral opinion! It is not something you can measure like heat or the distance to the sun. It is something an individual person comes to an emotional decision about based on the information their limited personal perspective allows them to have. This logic DOES NOT WORK. It doesn't make a good, informational article. You could argue that "stupid things are stupid", but you wouldn't write Wikipedia leads by saying "This article's subject is stupid", even if you had a large number of sources that agreed with you.

I am so sick of hearing this. What madness drives you to think that you can objectively understand the rationale of people you have not even met. Even if you knew these people personally, you still couldn't read their minds! Who qualified you and the journalists to be the undisputed arbiters of misogyny? YellowSandals (talk) 19:19, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

"How can anyone know anything, man? What if we are all brains in tanks!" seems a bit beyond the scope of this conversation. Here we just go by WP:RS. Artw (talk) 19:24, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

This is not metaphysics, and it boggles my mind that you would think of it as such. That you'd have such a hardcore, religious belief in misogyny that you think you can just feel it like God's light or something, and questioning its presence in some people is akin to questioning the entire universe. And then you go and influence the article with this thinking.

You know, as far as I can tell, this conflict mainly revolves around vicious mobs. One side is angry because they're constantly getting thumped on by a bunch of twenty-something moral extremists, and the other side is angry because the reaction to that constant thumping was so terrifyingly volatile. There's extreme elements mixed in there making prominent news, but that's because it's an angry mob! And who do we find on the Wikipedia talk page but a collection of editors still trying to give these people a moral thumping! And you wonder why this hasn't wound down at all over several months! For goodness sake, you could diffuse this by just being neutral and letting people feel like they aren't trapped in defensive corners! YellowSandals (talk) 19:33, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

WE are not giving anyone a "moral thumping", the majority of reliable sources are doing that. We are writing an article based on that. Tarc (talk) 19:40, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

And thus that is an immediately failure of NPOV. We can describe the "moral thumping" that the press has given with numerous sources, but we are absolutely not allowed to take their side. --MASEM (t) 19:43, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Until you get consensus to declare NPOV dead, you are stuck with it. And you need to stop beating the dead horse attempting to get something else to apply here. NO. We follow NPOV as it has been approved by consensus for the whole project. Deal with it.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:47, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

This applies to saying things in WP's voice. Wikipedia cannot say the antiGG side it right, though it can lay out all the quotes that justify why the antiGG side sees the proGG as bad and evil and all that. Similarly, Wikipedia cannot say the proGG side is right. As the bulk of the accusations on either side are all opinions and not fact, they are all required to be attributed to something else besides WP's voice. That's NPOV. --MASEM (t) 19:50, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Masem, you don't even know what you're objecting to anymore. I just said what you said, "We can describe the "moral thumping"". Describing it isn't taking a side, any more than describing Israeli apartheid actually takes the side that Israel actually is practicing apartheid. We are going to describing that it is the prevailing point-of-view, though, and that "but ethics" is minor. Tarc (talk) 19:55, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Your statement implied otherwise, so my bad if I misread it to mean that we were going to criticize GG in WP's voice. Documenting the opinions in that vein is just fine, however. --MASEM (t) 19:58, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

This article is written to intentionally cast a group in a bad light, which has made it not only sloppy because it's constantly slanting everything with circuitous wording, but also virtually worthless because nobody but the invested parties really cares which side is GI Joe and which side is Cobra Command. Of course Gamergate thinks it's GI Joe and anti-Gamergate thinks they're GI Joe. A lot of news articles have declared that Gamergate is Cobra Command. However, these are all moral opinions. Worthless, empty calories in an article functionally composed of packing peanuts. You do not just say, "Everyone agrees Gamergate is Cobra Command" like it's a grade school playground. This is an encyclopedia. It's supposed to inform people of who, what, when, and where. That means that Wikipedia says, "These people agreed Gamergate was Cobra Command, but Gamergate insisted it was GI Joe". You don't write the entire article trying to prove why Gamergate should be recognized as Cobra Command and why Gamergate is wrong. YellowSandals (talk) 20:02, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

No, this article itself does not take a "side", and if it paints the "but ethics" crowd in a bad light, that is because it is reflecting what the majority of the outside world sees it as. The Wikipedia itself is not saying that Gamergaters are misogynist harassers, the New York Times, the Washington Post, the BBC, and countless others are. Your beef is with them, much the same as the American conservatives who call them selves "Tea Partiers" scream about the "liberal media" all day. In both cases, that's just kinda...too bad. The Gamergater concern about ethics in gamer journalism will be mentioned, but it will be done in a way that makes clear that the media considers it a minority point of view, almost to the point of outright dismissal. Tarc (talk) 20:11, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Go! Go look at the Tea Party article! Under "Teabagger", it says, "News media and progressive commentators outside the movement began to use the term mockingly and derisively..."

You see how that properly attributes point of view. It says who uses the slur and why. Look, I will relent on this as soon as you can tell me a rough estimate of how many cubic centimeters of misogyny are present in the Gamergate movement. Until you can quantify something for me, this "misogyny" thing is a derisive moral accusation, and one that appears to be pissing the Gamergate movement off. The Tea Party page doesn't set out to explicitly represent that group in accordance to their morality, and it is a bad example to support your argument. YellowSandals (talk) 20:18, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Sadly, the point WHOOSHED over your head. It has nothing to do with however Tea Partiers are talked about in the Wikipedia. It has to do with your complaints about how you're pro-GG side isn't being represented fairly by the media, which is the same thing they say. To which I respond "too bad". It isn't the Wikipedia's problem to deal with perceptions and opinions of media bias. If the media is predominantly critical of Gamergaters, then the focus of this article will be on that critique. If you think the media is biased, this encyclopedia project is not the proper platform from which to fight that fight. An encyclopedia reflects the sources; it does not originate its own content, it does not distill what the sources say on a subject. 1. They say ---> 2. We report what they say. All of the pro-GG angst on this talk page directly stems from trying to bend that unbendable arrow that points from 1 to 2. Stop doing that., and we'll all be better off for it. Tarc (talk) 20:45, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• Everyone make sure to familiarize yourselves with WP:NOTFORUM, this thread is veering heavily into that direction. Stick to the editorial content of the article and Follow the WP:Reliable sources as well as WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:NOR and W:BLP. Dreadstar ☥ 20:43, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Sorry for the late reply - didn't think the discussion would move THAT quickly! Yes, after seems better to me. I personally don't think that the original post was misogynistic and so hadn't considered that it could be even be associated with misogyny. Though this article seems to take that interpretation - perhaps with justification - I think it's still more consistent to say that the controversy began after the post than with it, since whether or not the post was misogynistic, it wasn't explicitly about misogyny.

I'll change it now. Λυδαcιτγ 15:08, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Meet Gamergate's first political candidate

Of marginal importance, but might deserve a sentence somewhere: Ramon Ramirez, Meet Gamergate's first political candidate, The Daily Dot, Nov 4 2014.

The same article was also published in the Washington Post: [2]

Further coverage in The Mary Sue and The Austin Chronicle Andreas JN466 22:40, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I was going to post that earlier but then I noticed it was basically a Daily Dot source, and while interesting it was posted through the Wa Post without comment, still begs it as a questionable RS and not sure if needed/useful at this point --MASEM (t) 00:24, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

What's wrong with the daily dot? By passed through, I suppose you recognize it passed through their editors? --DHeyward (talk) 01:25, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

The Daily Dot is generally considered a reliable source. Not sure there is much we can justify beyond a sentence as Andreas suggested.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 02:27, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I'd really like to see us move off non-mainstream sources unless it is a point that is critical and only can be substantiated by weaker but otherwise reliable sources, simple to remove any claims of media bias. DD is one of those types of sources. --MASEM (t) 05:19, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

The WaPo reference, Vox reference by Klein and others, shows there is a political story that isn't nearly as one-sided as the Wikipedia article. In fact, acknowledging it as a political issue with one sifde calling misogyny/harassment and the other calling it journalism ethics is entire controversy. No NPOV reliable source discounts these views. Neither view is the "right" view nor is either view extreme. The article in Wikipedia is extremely biased to the extent that liberal editorials are covering the issue with more neutrality than the article. Ezra Klein's piece in Vox is a liberal POV piece that understands the gamers' complaints are not without merit. It contrasts sharply with the Wikipedia article which should be more neutral than a liberal editor's piece on the same topic. The first step is acknowledgin that GamerGate is political topic that reaches beyond Gamers, Developers and GameJournos. This coverage and others make that clear. --DHeyward (talk) 06:51, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Klein nowhere says that the complaints have any sort of merit. What he says is that "It has members who want clearer disclosure policies in gaming journalism." This is a statement of fact — it is true that there are such members. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:57, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

It appears to be some sort of intricate trolling attempt. (inb4 whining about WP:RS) Kelly's speech is oddly similar to this Clickhole hit piece on the pro-gg side: [3]. But of course, due to WP:RS being zealously upheld when it fits the narrative, this will be disregarded as non-notable, like the mounting proof of third party trolls, which, due to heavy pushing of No True Scotsman, also isn't being acknowledged. --DSA510 Pls No Hate 05:25, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Actually, she already pulled her vid <redact blp violation - don't speculate on motivation> --MASEM (t) 05:27, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

There are many things being speculated, however I suppose its good to wait until evidence is compiled. --DSA510 Pls No Hate 07:25, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

International Communication Association

The International Communication Association has an article in their newsletter about Gamergate. I'm not sure if this is a WP:RS though. If it is then it could be useful for talking about OperationDiggingDiGRA, and the history of harassment of people doing gender studies in technology. — Strongjam (talk) 00:58, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I am aware there is a third organized activity that the proGG side is doing that is aimed at DiGRA (Digital Games Research Assoc.) that they feel are problematic, which this above is likely relating too. (I do see that DIGRA has issued its statement about GG). However, I have yet to find any sufficiently good RS to post this, but this would definitely be part of that. --MASEM (t) 01:07, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

DiGRA "publicly condemns the harassment and bullying" of anyone as does every person and organization on the planet. The whole problem with this article can be summed up as saying that one side supports "harassment and bullying." No one denies that harassment and bullying has occured. No one supports harassment and bullying of women or journalists or gamers. Framing the debate in those terms is a gross NPOV violation. --DHeyward (talk) 07:06, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

The fact of the matter is that the GamerGate movement has been tainted by excessive harassment and bullying and cannot extricate itself from this fact no matter how many people say "but ethics". GamerGate is equated with supporting bullying and harassment and it's not a violation of WP:NPOV to say so.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:11, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

No, reliable sources has framed the GamerGate "sides" properly as a political statement. Trying to anchor one side with unexcusable behavior is a political tactic (similar to equating Islam as a "terrorist" religion). Partisan voices can drown out the message but it is hardly neutral to describe or frame GamerGate as simply "harassment and bullying." Saying that the views of gamers can't extract itself from the bullying and harassment that has occurred is like saying Islam cannot extract itself from 9/11. Surely you can agree that 9/11 occurred but that Islam is more than just one defining moment. GamerGate adherents describe it in mainstream sources as nothing to do with harassment and bullying. Surely this view is relevant enough to be included just as all of Islam is not framed as view of terrorists. There are indecent acts that are relevant to GamerGate and should be covered but not to the exclusion of all other views. --DHeyward (talk) 07:28, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Well that's a new analogy. Islam is a defined group full of people that have leaders and spokespersons and the such. There are plenty of clerics and imams and scholars to go "We are not ISIS. We are not the Taliban. They are extremists." GamerGate is an ill-defined nebulous group of online anonymous personages that go on and on about how "we totally want to root out corruption in gaming" without having done anything except foster hatred.

As many GamerGaters go "we're totally about ethics in gaming and not about harassment of women" there are just as many that bring that perception down. You can go on 8chan or KotakuInAction any day of the week and find thread after thread attacking the "Literally Whos" or whatever they're using rather than trying to do anything to change ethics in video game journalism. GamerGate has done nothing since Kotaku et al added clauses for Patreon, Indiegogo, etc. into their ethics standards that vary from site to site. The only thing going on now, at least from the context of this talk page, is the constant declaration that statements by writers at the BBC, The New York Times, CNN, The Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times, The Guardian, among every other link posted here by editors who actually have some fucking evidence to back up their claims is that this article is far from being biased as far as reliable sources go. Every single GamerGate POV pushing editor who has been coming here has been crying foul that the word "misogyny" is used in this article at all and are claiming that all of these news media are somehow conspiring against them and GamerGate as an entity when that is so far from the truth and a total conspiracy theory.

GamerGate was never about ethics in gaming because the whole reason it came about was found to be completely and utterly false. Nathan Grayson never wrote any review for Depression Quest. There is no review on Depression Quest on Kotaku. Nathan Grayson writing an article for Kotaku that features Zoe Quinn or something for Rock, Paper, Shotgun, which lists Depression Quest amongst 50 other steam games does not equate to corruption. People being roommates is not corruption. This movement has effectively ignored an actual instance of corruption in gaming no matter how many times TotalBiscuit says that's not the truth. This movement has focused entirely on women who dare to speak their mind about anything. There is nothing from any prominent men involved in this, directly or peripherally, that says that they have received death threats or have done anything to react to actual things that are criminal acts. Nathan Grayson hasn't said he got death threats. Chris Kluwe hasn't been threatened. Wil Wheaton hasn't been threatened. I don't even know if any indie devs other than Phil Fish got involved in this but he flew the coop. The evidence against GamerGate being about ethics and instead being about hating women (inlcuding how their biggest heroes are the biggest anti-feminist and conservative talking heads out there) far outweighs any right wing nutjob going apeshit over Muslims says on Fox News.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:08, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, Ryulong. I'm worried you're going to get zinged for the above, although RS's do ultimately back you up. The thing about the subject (Gamergate) is that it is insidiously exploitative of false balance, with news media feeling the pressure to give voice to opinions that aren't based in fact just because they are loud and persistent. It is eerily similar to other modern conservative culture wars in that way, where the media are forced to spend time giving credence to climate change/creationism/etc, when we as a society could be spending that valuable time studying science, progressing and making society better for everyone (and making more video games of any political persuasion... and similarly, editing this article into a readable one, rather than contending with the same baseless complaints over and over). It is definitely something to watch out for in evaluating RS content and in editing this article (which I am not getting involved in, just have been following and wanted to comment). I would argue that the only reason "ethics in journalism" needs to make an appearance in this article at all is due to false balance, since it is certainly not borne out by facts and the majority of RS material. --Hustlecat ^{do it!} 09:53, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Agree. The mainstream sources always even in their most expansive coverage framed it as "ostensibly, but" and there have been plenty of sources recently that have been "that 'but ethics' is a sham".-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:46, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

"Trying to anchor one side with unexcusable behavior is a political tactic (similar to equating Islam as a "terrorist" religion)." These comparisons are shit. There's just no other way to say it. They don't make sense. Yes, some people people attempt to frame political opponents as 'terrorists' etc to delegitimize them. That doesn't mean that a group that's being treated mainly as a negative force in reliable sources is really just a victim of the liberal media. Islam has people trying to treat it as a bad, bad thing, but it also has lots of reliable sources that don't treat it as a 'terrorist religion.' Show me the reliable sources that treat gamergate primarily as an ethics movement and either ignores the movement's treatment of women or treats it as a less important aspect of the movement than its ethical concerns -- TaraInDC (talk) 19:04, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Most good high quality RS say, first, "here is what GG claims it is about", trying to explain (but not support or justify) the POV GG has, and then in the same article "but there is likely evidence that is it not that because of harassment". The amount of details about what GG wants is slim, no question. But they do exist in reliable sources. The problem with saying the whole "but ethics!" thing as an afterthought after focusing on the harassment is basically giving no credence to the GG issues, which as a neutral source we need to - we absolutely cannot prejudge the GG side in a WP voice. At the end of the day, the article is still going to give plenty of opinions from the press that will paint the GG side in an unavoidably bad light because they clearly have lost the public opinion at this point. But that is not a reason for us to not cover their side's fundamental aspects in a neutral manner prior to getting into all the criticism about it, as we would do with any other fringe group. Even if this is a paragraph or a few sentences at most due to the lack of detailed coverage of their goals at date. As long as high quality RS still give the GG side appropriate serious discussion in their articles (even if they later critique them), we will too. That's how one writes neutral articles. --MASEM (t) 19:13, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I dont really know what "most high quality" sources you are looking at but these "high quality sites" dont. The Guardian: The recent uproar – said to be over ethics in journalism but focused mostly on targeting outspoken women who aren’t journalists at all – is just the last, desperate gasp of misogynists facing an unwelcoming future." , The Telegraph "#GamerGate: the misogynist movement blighting the video games industry" , The IB Times Any lingering doubt over whether the Gamergate movement is dedicated to anything other than misogyny and intimidation was eliminated early Thursday when Felicia Day’s personal information was dumped online., Time: Misogynist Online Abuse Is Everyone’s Problem — Men Included , Huff Po: They are facing, as activist Melissa McEwan put it, terrorist misogyny." , Vox Angry misogyny is now the primary face of #GamerGate, The LA Times: "It's time to silence 'gamergate,' end the misogyny in gaming culture" (belated signature) -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:35, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Gaurdian article and the LA Times are opinion pieces (says right in the header), so not considering that. The rest all actually airs some of the GG grievances and then in the next breath downplays/criticizes them - that's the type of sourcing that still gives us every reason to at least neutrally give the GG side its tiny tiny portion at this table, and not flat out ignore them or treat them as fringe. --MASEM (t) 19:40, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Their "place at the table" is the during the thanksgiving feast to be sitting at the kids table in the basement. Not quite "fringe" but moving closer and closer with every renewed attack on woman, ignoring of actual ethics violation, scream of "ignore the harassment and pay attention TO ME!!!". -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:40, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Regardless of how you feel about the group, we are required to be neutral, not take sides or preconceived notions or judgement even if that's what the press presents, and give them a reasonable tiny bit of respect to explain their purported cause, before going into the flood of complaints about the group. ---MASEM (t) 20:47, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Regardless of how you feel about the group, you are required at some point and time to begin providing reliably published mainstream sources that that back your position because your beating of the dead horse that we have to be " neutral" without any sources showing how we are not representing the sources accurately has long since crossed into the TE world. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:24, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

No, that's not how it works. When we are talking about how to construct content, consider sourcing, and other general facets of the article, these choices are not subject to content policy. We are writing a neutral encyclopedia and that means that while we follow the sources in regards to summarizing content, we absolutely do not take their tone, or take their opinions as facts attributed to WP's voice. --MASEM (t) 23:29, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

WP:V actually it does work that way. Provide your sourcing or stuffit. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:27, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Your comment is inaccurate. These sources mention what gamergate claims to be about in the context of articles on the actual controversy the movement is generating - the one about its treatment of women. We do that, too, but we're not going to use a number of articles that give 95% of their attention to one perspective and 5% to another to justify giving that 5% pride of place. This article is about a controversy. Gaters can claim to be about ethics all they like, but they do not get a say in what the rest of the world is saying about them. They don't get to declare the controversy surrounding their movement to be about ethics. It's not. Our sources are very clear on that. Your comment is also off-point: the comment I responded to was arguing against proper application of WP:WEIGHT with the justification that people like to claim that Islam is a terrorist religion. I explained why that was a poor analogy. So the articles that are primarily about harassment of women but briefly mention 'but ethics' are not answering my question: where does gamergate have the kind of coverage of its 'but ethics' angle that we have for Islam as something other than a "terrorist religion?" -- TaraInDC (talk) 19:52, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

What they claim is a fact on their side of the case; if they are really living up to that claim is where we allow the large number of negative sources speak towards that. But it is not a neutral position to ignore that fact given that that position can be sourced. And there have been sources that have talked to GG ppl to get what they want (Again, the New Yorker piece about meeting them in a strip bar, which was about ethics concerns even if the word "ethics" wasn't in the language of the article, as one example); it's not as great as there would be as there is for your example, clearly, but it is there, so a paragraph or so to speak to their claims without being critical of them, and establishing that as the initial crux of the issue, is in no way undue or the like; it is what neutrality demands. The media is already bias against GG, but we are not allowed to spin it further to make it even worse and ignore core neutrality policy. --MASEM (t) 20:47, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Your claim that "the media is biased against GG" is an unsupported personal opinion and shall have nothing whatsoever to do with how we write this article. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:02, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Er, what? Yes they are - they are one side of the debate, so of course they are biased against GG. Doesn't make them unusable, just that we have to be aware that bias exists. --MASEM (t) 22:05, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Certain outlets directly accused by GamerGate might be said to have a "bias," such as Kotaku and Polygon, but you cannot possibly claim with a straight face that The Washington Post, The New York Times, New York magazine, The Week, Los Angeles Times, CNN, The Boston Globe, etc. etc. etc. etc. are part of some grand media cabal to oppose GamerGate. That's just looney-tunes conspiracy theory nonsense. The plaintive whine that "everyone who opposes me does so because they're all part of a biased super-conspiracy cabal to stop us (and not because they've rationally examined the issue and found our ideology and goals unworthy)" does not merit serious discussion. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:08, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

The higher quality RS are far less biased because of their separation from the video game sector but they still have some because GG, broadly, is questioning journalism, and even if they aren't the subject of GG's crosshairs, they are defending other journalism sources in their efforts, which is fine and natural, and broadly doesn't affect them as sources. But now when you consider all sources written about GG, the bulk of them are from VG and tech news sites, and as a whole, this side is clearly biased (with individual parts far less so). --MASEM (t) 22:26, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

No, Masem, they are not biased. They have examined GamerGate's ideologies, claims and actions and come to the conclusion that it's a toxic waste dump of awful. Highly-respected media outlets such as Columbia Journalism Review that do nothing but examine and criticize journalism have looked at GamerGate and found nothing meaningful in its claims about journalism ethics. NPR's journalism-review show, "On The Media" called it an "ongoing troll crusade" with a "trumped-up scandal." The idea that everyone who opposes GamerGate is "unfairly biased" against GamerGate is nothing more than a self-perpetuating conspiracy theory. That is all. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:00, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Where did I say "unfairly biased"? I said "biased". They (at least, the ones at the center of GG's crosshairs) have fair reason to be biased, since they're being accused directly of problems, while the more reliable ones are only a bit biased because they are journalists reporting on journalism manners. We have to be aware this exists, doesn't discount there. --MASEM (t) 23:08, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

When you're claiming that the fucking Columbia Journalism Review is biased, you've lost the plot, Masem. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:10, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

They are part of the media so they are going to be reporting this from the journalism POV (they make no attempt at any direct research into GG itself, only going by what they are seeing in already published works). Their bias is however, very very slight in contrast to anything Polygon or Kotaku might be putting out. And remember, a point that somehow keeps getting lost - being biased does not make something a bad source. But we have to be aware that bias in sources cannot be used to direct WP's voice. --MASEM (t) 23:19, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, you dont get to throw all policy out on its head because you claim some sinister media conspiracy. Try again. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:26, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I am not challenging any policy, and in fact trying to make sure we respect NPOV by writing neutrally towards all sides involved regardless of the press's opinions on the matter, just like we do for any strongly-disliked group or person. --MASEM (t) 23:32, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Stop saying that things published by the BBC and CNN and all of these other sources are simply opinions. You sound no better than the POV pushers flooding this page from Reddit. The press's neutral determination of GamerGate is that it is a movement that originated in hatred towards women and feminist analysis of video games masquerading as a consumer revolt regarding corruption in video games media and that is exactly what this article says.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 04:12, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Please cite where BBC and CNN said "GamerGate .. is a movement that originated in hatred towards women." Other than WP, I haven't seen that analysis. I've seen that gamer community elements have been misogynistic. I've not seen any reliable source say gamergate originated in that. It's quite different to acknowledge an element than linking the origin of an event to that element. --DHeyward (talk) 04:29, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

The Columbia Journalism review cites CNN as sayin GG is "At its most basic level, it's a heated debate over journalistic integrity, the definition of video games and the identity of those who play them." [4][5]. That doesn't dismiss misogyny at all but it correctly defines GG. --DHeyward (talk) 04:40, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

CJR has the best summation: "And the aims of the movement often contradict themselves. They appear to be loosely coordinated online activists whose main talking point, writes Jesse Singal for New York Magazine, is “how mad and frustrated they were that progressive politics and feminism were impinging on gaming, which they saw as an area they had enjoyed, free of politics, forever.” ... The problem is that when anybody can tweet under the Gamergate hashtag, and no one wants to take responsibility for the movement, it becomes a challenge for reporters trying to nail down verifiable facts. When reporters characterize Gamergate as misogynistic, proponents say those views don’t represent the movement. Instead, many claim to be advocating greater ethics among the video game press. Yet many criticisms of press coverage by people who identify with Gamergate—about alleged collusion in video games between journalists and developers or among reporters—have been debunked. Meanwhile, the abusers and the reasoning debaters cannot be separated. ... To Polygon’s Grant, however, there is no clear resolution to reporting on Gamergate because the lack of coordination appears to be by design. “They resist cohesion, they resist leadership, they resist order,” he said. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:03, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

And this speaks to at least rewriting the opening. CNN says "At its most basic level, it's a heated debate over journalistic integrity, the definition of video games and the identity of those who play them." There is clear distinction between misogyny, which existed in the gaming community long before, and the controversy known as gamergate. That's what CNN does and CJR's analysis backs it up. This article isn't about the lack of coherence of a movement, it's about an event that set the politics outlined in the Vox piece against each other and continues today. --DHeyward (talk) 05:47, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

and these sources define it otherwise The Guardian: The recent uproar – said to be over ethics in journalism but focused mostly on targeting outspoken women who aren’t journalists at all – is just the last, desperate gasp of misogynists facing an unwelcoming future." , The Telegraph "#GamerGate: the misogynist movement blighting the video games industry" , The IB Times Any lingering doubt over whether the Gamergate movement is dedicated to anything other than misogyny and intimidation was eliminated early Thursday when Felicia Day’s personal information was dumped online., Time: Misogynist Online Abuse Is Everyone’s Problem — Men Included , Huff Po: They are facing, as activist Melissa McEwan put it, terrorist misogyny." , Vox Angry misogyny is now the primary face of #GamerGate, The LA Times: "It's time to silence 'gamergate,' end the misogyny in gaming culture"-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 09:54, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

But fundamentally, they all are opinions; this is how news reporting like this works. No reporter is an expert in social sciences, and none have shown any attempt to quantify the members of GG to document the numbers involved in the harassment and/or the number that are sexist/misogynistic in a manner that would leave no doubt to their factuality. Their statements are akin to those that are financial or political pundents, making guesses and projections that carry weight if they are - their conclusions aren't fact but they are strong opinions to be documented in their voice (not WP's). Similarly for GG, the reporters making very logical assumptions (a pattern of harassment against women is a likely sign of misogyny), and as strong RSes, their opinionated conclusions carry great weight for this article. But they are not facts. Again, I point to the École Polytechnique massacre as an example of how we can use those opinions but do not state them as fact despite the large amount of evidence to support the logical validity of those conclusions. --MASEM (t) 05:20, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Stop demoting everything that criticizes GamerGate to an opinion. It's so annoying. When multiple news organizations say the same thing it's not all of their opinions. I'm tired of hearing this from you and all of the POV pushers.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:32, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

But it's true; the bulk of what is being said about GG is all opinions, assumptions, and suppositions, and not based on scientific, legal, or social evidence or analysis. The closest we've gotten in any source is the Newsweek / Brandwatch thing with the twitter message survey. Mind you, it does depend on what's being said: "The harassment has a pattern of misogyny" is a fact, "The harassment is driven by misogyny" is an opinion, for example. --MASEM (t) 05:42, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

That's because there literally can't be any because GamerGate is not a defined group. It's got no defined membership to analyze it. It's a hashtag on social media websites. All people have to say about it is what they can when they bother to go through the morass of trying to analyze it in its five different locations with people going "Fuck Kotaku", "Fuck Zoe Quinn", and "But Ethics". The people who threatened Quinn, Sarkeesian, Wu, Day, Boogie, Milo, etc. will never be caught. They will never be prosecuted. Nothing good will ever come out of this. Nothing concrete will ever come out of this. We have to stop being wishywashy on this page. We can only write about what is out there and the preponderance of sources out there call the ethics nothing but a front for harassment, which is misogynistic in nature. That's all that we're trying to say on this damn article but every single statement from the media is automatically asumed to be an opinion or part of a fucking conspiracy theory against gamers and/or GamerGate and therefore must be mitigated to simply be an opinion while clear opinion pieces from conservative writers that aren't totally scathing of GamerGate get a pass.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:49, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Just because there is no "defined" membership doesn't mean there are no members to be analyzed. The fact that one source noted that there are at least 10,000 users involved in one of the major GG forums points out the potential size of the group. We have to be "wishywashy" as a neutral source, refusing to commit to either side of the debate. --MASEM (t) 06:13, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

But every source out there points out that there is no real debate because it's a bunch of conspiracy theories and lies that form the basis of everything GamerGate stands for.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:38, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I contest that idea. Please provide link to EVERY source out there and prove that what you claim is actually factual and true.--Thronedrei (talk) 12:03, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

The sources have been listed over and over just check this page. However, the LACK of sources saying anything different is the issue. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:56, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, that's not how a discussion works. Unless Ryulong or you can point to the exact links and state exactly where in articles the links link to the info is; it is just a wild claim. You need proper citation, you learn this sort of stuff in university. The problem you see, if you don't, there really is no reason for other people not to do the same. They make a wild claim, then just state "check the thread it is somewhere in the archive." No, as Ryulong is the one making the claim he needs to provide the links and quotations every time he brings these things up.--Thronedrei (talk) 19:45, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

No, they don't. The least biased/highest reliability ones identify that there is a debate to be had, there are some trying to get it, but any efforts to do so are overwhelmed/tainted/ruined by the continued harassment that is misogynistic in nature. That is, these sources at least acknowledge there is the "GG moderate" (per Slate) that are earnest behind it, but in terms of the overall GG controversy, anything they have tried to do is far far overshadowed by harassment, and several have told the GG moderate they should move to a different name and organize better to get more debate rolling. This is a very different statement than "there is no real debate", which would mean there's zero efforts going on and flat out ignoring any claims the GG side had made, which is not the case. --MASEM (t) 15:56, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

No, you dont get to discount sources just because you dont like what they say. The Guardian: The recent uproar – said to be over ethics in journalism but focused mostly on targeting outspoken women who aren’t journalists at all – is just the last, desperate gasp of misogynists facing an unwelcoming future." , The Telegraph "#GamerGate: the misogynist movement blighting the video games industry" , The IB Times Any lingering doubt over whether the Gamergate movement is dedicated to anything other than misogyny and intimidation was eliminated early Thursday when Felicia Day’s personal information was dumped online., Time: Misogynist Online Abuse Is Everyone’s Problem — Men Included , Huff Po: They are facing, as activist Melissa McEwan put it, terrorist misogyny." , Vox Angry misogyny is now the primary face of #GamerGate, The LA Times: "It's time to silence 'gamergate,' end the misogyny in gaming culture" -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:03, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

That's the same list as earlier: some are specifically listed as opinion pieces so we discount those; but of the others all give some validity to the GGside, even if they speak ill in the next breath. Articles are not black and white, either antiGG or proGG; a proper treatment as the less biased/higher quality RS do of those you highlight do cover both sides in as much as the proGG can be covered before switching to opinion mode. I'm not ignoring these sources, instead pointing out that other things these article said want to be written away in an inappropriate manner for a neutral article covering GG. --MASEM (t) 17:20, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

again you and your dichotomy that doesnt exist. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:36, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Again, opinions are not facts. An article is nothing but an opinion piece if no evidence is provided. It is the old "if media reports the earth is flat" then it is just an opinion and not a fact.--Thronedrei (talk) 12:33, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Cutting this article to a managable size

I know it's probably in vain, but to show the kind of things I think need done to fix this article, I have made a copy in my sandbox, and have been making the sort of changes I think need made to the real one. It's still very much a work in progress. HalfHat 08:42, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

You conspicuously cut out a lot of content that is critical of GamerGate. Or that refutes GamerGate in some way.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:46, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I've still got a lot of cutting to do. There is just a lot more antiGG stuff in general so ofcourse more will get cut. If there's any bits you think need cut though, I'm certainly open to suggestions. HalfHat 10:08, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Since this moves quickly I've cut this short to work on the real one. The last version (which is still very far from finished remember) is here. Please check it out.I'll go back to it if someone wants to me to try something major out. HalfHat 20:44, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protection, please?

Every time full protection expires it reverts to wide open, resulting in crap. Tarc (talk) 13:20, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Done - changed back to semi. - Bilby (talk) 13:56, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

While annoying I can't help finding this kind of trolling darkly amusing. Anyway I find it surprising they can't have it auto revert to semiprotection. HalfHat 18:26, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

"After lack of feedback from straw poll. If you have an argument for inclusion please make a talk section after reverting, and explain why"

There are many, many new sections created on this page each day. I do not believe that lack of response to one should be considered consensus. Artw (talk) 18:34, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. There was one "no" in the straw poll (and when you go right to a vote rather than starting with a discussion you shouldn't be surprised if voting is all people do) and one comment that the content could go in a different section. There were no responses indicating that wholesale removal was a good idea. Why'd you even ask if you weren't going to listen? -- TaraInDC (talk) 18:46, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

That's not what I was meaning. I never said I was talking the lack of response to be consensus, just that I know of no justification for this long section. The article has length issues without 5kB of unneeded text. We can't just include every opinion ever in this article. HalfHat 19:39, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

That section is a bit of a mess, that last paragraph is completely out of place, and I'm not really sure about the 2nd paragraph either (not saying they don't belong at all, just not really in that section.) I think the article does need to talk about how the issue is being politicized though. — Strongjam (talk) 19:45, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Decided to try being bold and moved the paragraph on using archive sites to the section about targeting advertisers. Seems like a better fit. — Strongjam (talk) 19:54, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

As a neutral admin, though, as pointed out above, your "removals" appear to be slanted in one direction only. If you suggested shortening the article by removing excessively long pro- and anti-Gamergate sections, this would be better. Black Kite (talk) 19:56, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm far from done with the cutting in my sandbox. And like I said if there are any major cuts you think I missed please say. I have made cuts to both, but since the article has more anti stuff that's where most of the cuts have been made. Anyway I'm mostly doing it the sandbox edits to get people thinking about where cuts can be made, I was never really suggesting making it the new article, it's more of a demonstration. Ideally I want to get it down to about half the current length, that'll take some work though. HalfHat 20:02, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

The removals you made in your sandbox are also heavily slanted in one direction, as I pointed out above.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:03, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

If there are bits needing cuts I've missed I'd be greatful for the help. HalfHat 20:26, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

It's absolutely fine to make changes in your sandbox and then present them to the community for examination, it's probably not to make them to the live article without doing so. Black Kite (talk) 20:05, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I just feel something needs done, and no one seems interested trying to trim it to a reasonable size, I guess my fustration clouded my judgement. HalfHat 20:28, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Anyway can we get back to why that section is needed. HalfHat 20:26, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Can I ask though what the section in it's current state adds? No one has actually answered this. If you want some of the information I'd suggest putting the right wing hate comment in the nature and organisation section, I think that paragraph on it's own would maybe be warranted. HalfHat 21:17, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

What about moving the "further harassments" section into the misogyny/antifeminism section and combining it with the "attacks on women" section

It seems more logical to me, and I thinkby combing them we could possible make it more concise. HalfHat 20:53, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

no. the attacks and further attacks are "history"/"what happened" and that is different than the analysis of what happened. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 10:26, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

It's the same for a lot of the stuff in the GGA section, there's just too much going on to have it with the history.HalfHat 10:42, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Diversity and inclusiveness section

For discussion. Tutelary (talk) 23:14, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I still think it's much cleaner to combine it with the Sommers section. HalfHat 23:18, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

There's obviously a significant debate as to the meaningfulness of "#NotYourShield" and it's appropriate to mention that explicitly in the section heading. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:41, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

The objections raised by TDA that "implies that these facts are not facts" are exactly what the rest of us have all been saying regarding the statements on the page that are not expressly pro-Gamergate. When TechCrunch's op/ed piece is being used to cite "facts" that's an issue. And Cathy Young's piece is also an opinion. After all the complaints that "opinions are being written in Wikipedia's voice" this is exactly what you're doing.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 23:42, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Without scrubbing around for more sources, I agree on the immediate change to put these in appropriate voices outside of WPs. Though I think there might be better sources now to support those points. --MASEM (t) 23:49, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm severely disappointed in you Masem. Do you really fucking believe the existence of female and minority GamerGate supporters is an opinion?--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 00:01, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

If we are talking about this change [6] then yes, this needs better sourcing or otherwise putting language into the words of others because it is not obvious who supports GG; one weak RS is not enough. Mind you, I'm pretty sure better sourcing is there, but it would take time to locate and include. I don't doubt there are women or minorities involved, but it is arguably exactly right that any "favorable" proGG statements have to be properly sourced or sourced to someone not in WP's voice just like we're asking for the antiGG statements. Here there, I think in the longer term this can be fixed by just finding the right sources. --MASEM (t) 00:07, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

The existence of female supporters is not an opinion, but the assertion that media ever said GG was exclusively white and male is certainly an opinion. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:13, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Show me where the material said the stupid shit you are claiming it said. Also, your insistence on having the heading refer to it as a "debate over diversity" and your insistence on attributing factual information as though it were opinion, not to mention your desire to exclude as many mentions as possible of women and minorities in GamerGate, hardly suggests that you want the reality of women and minorities supporting GamerGate acknowledged in this article.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 00:22, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

(Redacted) We're restating it in attributed form because Allum Bokhari and Cathy Young are polemic op-ed writers. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:51, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

The consensus of mass media does not mean we can evade WP:NPOV to write it in Wikipedia's voice. Tutelary (talk) 23:57, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

And that means we're not going to state Allum Bokhari and Cathy Young's opinions in Wikipedia's voice either. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:59, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

There's a bunch of attributable statements North, and most of them I don't think you'd want attributed. Tutelary (talk) 00:04, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Allum Bokhari (a political analyst) and Cathy Young (a libertarian who exclusively contributes to conservative leaning media) say two things here, you insist that they are facts and not the opinions of the writers when they are exclusively in op/ed pieces like everything that had come out of Kotaku and the like chastising the movement. Goose. Gander. You get it.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:39, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm just going to make a general request for civility. And please focus on the article not the editors. HalfHat 23:47, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Could someone please post a list of the sources that support the #Notyourshield text and that women and minorities who support GamerGate have received death threats and harassment? If the sources support it, I will advocate mentioning it in the article. Cla68 (talk) 23:53, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• If the comments about other editors continues, I'm going to move forward with sanctions per Wikipedia:General sanctions/Gamergate on everyone making those kinds of comments. Dreadstar ☥ 20:28, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

"Doxxed"

Should we be using the term "doxxed" in the article? It seems overly jargony, as well as being imprecise and variable in meaning. Artw (talk) 00:49, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Generally agree, but the term is widely used in sources so making sure the reader is familiar with the term is helpful. — Strongjam (talk) 00:53, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

It is jargony, but it's also a usefully succinct description for the concept. I wouldn't be opposed to removing it, but we could also briefly explain what the concept means the first time we use it and then continue to use it as we do for the rest of the article. So something like "doxxing (publication of personal information, especially contact information)" -- TaraInDC (talk) 00:57, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

We should explain it once (or twice, once in lead, once at first body use) but that should be sufficient; expanding "dox" is very wordy after that. --MASEM (t) 01:00, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

It does seem a bit slangy. "Doc dropped" would be a bit better, but far from ideal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Halfhat (talk • contribs) 01:14, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

No, we shouldn't. According to Merriam-Webster,[7] Reference.com,[8] and WordReference.com,[9] "dox" is not a word. We're an encyclopedia. Slang is acceptable in quotes, but not in article text. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:15, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Oxford has it. --MASEM (t) 20:19, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I want to rearrange the article a bit

I think the media response and debate of ethics sections or sort of a hodge podge of stuff. I want to make the media response mostly about comments of the media themselves, the debate section I thinkk could probably get broken up and integrated, but that's something for another day. HalfHat 11:05, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Hacing two sections of just "stuff" arranges in teirs of goodness is just terrible writing, we need to think of the article as a whole. HalfHat 11:16, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I think we should just get rid of the media section and disperse those comments into the article where appropriate. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:21, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I've made an attempt at doing so. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:25, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, you have. But there isn't enough overall, please ignore that comment I didn't give it the time to properly explain and think through what I was saying. HalfHat 11:28, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

The problem is the section as a whole is pretty much just a "stuff" section, I think all of it would fit into the other sections. I think the inclusion of that section pretty much sums up everything wrong with this article, it's barely an article just a list of everything to do with GG, opinions and facts. Also that source is one of the few commenting on journalism itself, and if we're looking at the media response that's what we need, not just "here are some more opinions from the media". HalfHat 11:28, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Again, the hard part here is trying to fairly tell a story that the movement can't properly explain. If the movement is about journalism ethics, then obviously there should be some specific ethical concerns that we can talk about... but because there's no coherent messaging and no agreed-upon platform, we're hard-pressed to describe those concerns, which means we don't have much of a rebuttal to the idea that it isn't. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:32, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

You're right there. This is notoriously hard to explain, but I think we can do a better job. But I don't think that means we can just have stuff sections, if everything is better organised you can also combine things and words them more concisely. Just because GG lacks lacks a proper structure doesn't mean the article should. HalfHat 11:41, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

The Open Standard apologizes to GamerGate.

Found this while i was browsing. Apparently it is rather old, but I don't recall seeing it mentioned anywhere in the article or on the talk board. https://openstandard.mozilla.org/our-sincerest-apologies/ The gist of it seems to be that "The Open Standard" wrote an uninformed article about GamerGate, got some feedback and then retracted the article, apologizing that it had been written.--Thronedrei (talk) 12:00, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

actually, the gist is that gamergate is not about "open systems" which is what Open Standard is supposed to focus on and that it will be more clear in distinguishing between content , views and promotions of the Open Standard brand and the Mozilla brand. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:08, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Still they apologized for writing the article and they retracted it, noting how dumb it was to write about something they knew nothing about and really had nothing to do with. If only more "news outlets" had been this wise.--Thronedrei (talk) 12:14, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

No, they did not retract the article. No, they did not say it was dumb to write about something they knew nothing about, they said it was a mistake to write about something that is not the topic they cover.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:47, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

They did retract this one (which is the only one people were pissed about). 404s now, but you can look it up an archived copy if you want. Protonk (talk) 13:51, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I can still access it, the 404 occurs irregularly Racuce (talk) 19:27, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Once this article is cleaned up this could add some information

http://www.dailydot.com/politics/mackenzie-kelly-austin-gamergate/ And mirrored here. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2014/11/04/a-female-politician-is-running-for-office-on-the-gamergate-platform/ It covers a few things and could maybe fill a couple holes for example you could use it to attribute GG views to an actual person, the title is a bit misleading. HalfHat 12:05, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Already raised above. Could IMO be used to add a sentence to the diversity section. Andreas JN466 16:43, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

What source?

What sources directly support the material you're trying to add. Adding 'some' to things in numerous places seems to me like you're trying to euphemize and emphasize that a vast majority of them are sending these threats which is patently untrue. State which source you're getting this information from. Red. Tutelary (talk) 15:04, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

The inline citations would seem to support TRPoD's revisions. They do not appear to support the version Tutelary has been reverting to. CIreland (talk) 16:54, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Pretty much every citation indicates that the gamergate is an amorphous, anonymous, leaderless, and platformless gaggle. Implying that they all do or believe anything is problematic, as you have been quite instant on making sure that anything related to the death threats is attributed to only "some" - that same instance must be made for any other thing attributed to some of them. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:20, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Decent article for proGG opinions

I'd suggest that if someone decides to use this, to find something it could replace and to keep it consise. http://adland.tv/adnews/can-gamergate-be-rebranded-should-it-be/376533440 or wecould wait until the article is a more reasonable size. HalfHat 16:52, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

It's a WP:SPS, so I don't think it's really usable unless a WP:RS points to it. — Strongjam (talk) 16:57, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I didn't realize. HalfHat 18:17, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Milo Yiannopoulos

The newest criticism of GamerGate comes from...Milo Yiannopoulos. Obviously it's an SPS and we'll have to wait for reliable sources to comment, but it appears that he has not only stopped talking about GamerGate but is actively distancing himself from it. Woodroar (talk) 18:18, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Fickle opportunist is opportunistic, fickle. I suppose that to whatever extent we are indicating he is a supporter of GamerGate we might want to indicate he doesn't seem to be now, though of course pretty much anything to do with him is inherently unreliable. Artw (talk)

It will be interesting to see if others pick up on his moving away (We can document Milo as a prior GG supporter but not this yet). --MASEM (t) 18:31, 6 November 2014 (UTC) --

There's a bit where Milo talks about GG in this [10] --DSA510 Pls No Hate 05:51, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Its terrible that they have started backstabbing, but those death threats earlier - no probs there. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:53, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes because every proGG person clearly cheered on the death threats and doxxing. BTW, if we're going on twitter stuff, then what about dox threat to the #burgersandfries channel on rizon, was it a joke like the "bring back bullying" thing? I happen to love jokes about bullying, as I was merely bullied since preschool! What wit and whimsy!.--DSA510 Pls No Hate 05:51, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Since no media reports on it there is no actual source but "King Of Poll" possibly talked about this on his twitter.--Thronedrei (talk) 19:53, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

King of /pol/ (Politically Incorrect board on 8chan, where its impossible to tell apart the obvious stormfront posters and the people just messing around, it still amazes me that people take /pol/ seriously), to be exact, who announced on his twitter that he would be leaving gamergate for a while. --DSA510 Pls No Hate 05:57, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

He is a reporter and he is reporting on its current state. He should not be listed as a pro-GG anymore than other news outlets are anti-GG. There are other sources that say GG coverage is about to come to a halt with extreme prejudice. The U.S. election is over and opportunists from many sides no longer need the cause to salvage their reputations or promote their views. --DHeyward (talk) 02:46, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

his twitter feed shows that he is an involved party in this incident - he is not a "journalist" . but the kingofpol feed is fucking hilarious.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:30, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

There's a ton of complicated history in the last few days. He's just making commentary about it. I wouldn't say it amounts to anything of significance just yet. If he wrote an entire article about it, maybe. —Torchiest ^talk_edits 02:51, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

There's no source for this, but for context... someone "revealed" Facebook posts that purported to show Nick Denton formulating a massive anti-GG conspiracy. The Facebook posts were obviously fabricated and not taken seriously by anyone outside GG, but many GGers bought it hook-line-and-sinker. Now that it's been revealed that it was nonsense... there's a wee bit of internal drama going down. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:40, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

There was a lot of doubt as to the validity of the posts from both sides. --DSA510 Pls No Hate 05:51, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Interesting though. Internet Aristocrat seems to be with him, he was the one that started it all. HalfHat 10:22, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Unable to edit

I am unable to edit ANYTHING on this page, and I don't know why. I've made more than a few edits on other articles and this isn't a new account, so if somebody could enlighten me as to why semi-protection prevents me from fixing a GRAMMAR ERROR, I'd appreciate it.

Oh, and fix it too, that would also be good. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skeletos (talk • contribs) 02:56, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

You should be able to edit it just fine; you may have been prevented by an edit conflict. Try to edit it again. CIreland (talk) 03:00, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Never had that happen before, guess that says something about the articles I edit, thanks for the tip. Skeletos (talk) 03:09, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

The quote in question

'Quinn told The New Yorker that she feels sympathy for her attackers; "People don't viciously attack anyone without having some deep-seeded loathing in themselves," she said.'

I don't see the purpose of this quote in relation to the article, it provides little relevant information to someone wanting to know about Gamergate, and it comes across as a deliberate attack on Gamergate supporters. Skeletos (talk) 04:13, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Quinn is not attacking GamerGate as a whole — she specifically directed that comment at the unidentified people who attacked and threatened her. Are you saying that the unidentified people who viciously harassed and threatened her are GamerGate supporters, and that those people should be taken as generally representative of all GamerGate supporters? I thought GamerGate condemned harassment.

Given that we extensively discuss the false allegations against her, I'm not sure why we should refrain from publishing the rebuttal and response of a person who made international headlines for being victimized by Internet harassment. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:20, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Dude, the allegations against her account for 10% of the article, and the harassment is about 50%, I'd hardly call that an "extensive" discussion. It's not even a rebuttal, it's just another link in the "You're stupid! No, you are!" chain and doesn't help inform the reader about her harassment. It's not explicitly stated, but it is REALLY heavily implied that she's talking about Gamergate, the article the quote is from mentions it and it's used in an article ABOUT Gamergate. It's the conclusion that the reader is led to. If there were similarly snide comments about her, there would be a precedent for keeping this, but there isn't (And there shouldn't be). If it's about "unidentified people", then make that clear. Skeletos (talk) 07:50, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

I think it should be kept. However, there should also be rebuttal quotes, to balance things out. --DSA510 Pls No Hate 06:33, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

The rebuttal would be something like "Actually, we don't need self loathing to attack you"? Not quite sure what you mean by rebuttal. Koncorde (talk) 08:24, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

It's literally explicitly stated that her comments refer to the people who attacked her. I'm not sure how it can be any more clear. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 08:23, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

I know that, its being implied that the people who attacked her are either part of or are affiliated with Gamergate. Skeletos (talk) 08:28, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Reliable sources have linked that harassment with GamerGate, so yes, that inference may be present. It's well-supported. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 08:29, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Causation does not equal correlation. That aside, I get the point of having the quote now, but could it be moved somewhere else where it won't come across as a straight up insult? Or rephrase it, I guess. Skeletos (talk) 08:36, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Sorry this is bugging me, it's "correlation does not imply causation". HalfHat 09:18, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

I feel somewhat silly now. Skeletos (talk) 10:15, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

It adds nothing of value to the article. It should be removed. Willhesucceed (talk) 09:39, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

I'd be in favour of removing it. Quotes like this is why this article is so absurdly large. HalfHat 10:20, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

The article is almost entriely opinion

Seriously a lot needs cut. The article is unreadable. HalfHat 10:56, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

That's because GG supporters complain from here to next week when we try to clearly express the consensus of reliable sources in Wikipedia's voice. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 10:59, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

No it's because every time any RS writes anything on this someone insists it should get a section, and no one is willing to have anything cut. We can't and shouldn't make this a collection anyone ever said on GG. HalfHat 11:03, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

The debate of legitimacy of ethics section should be destroyed

The entire section is just "Someone said this. Someone said this." It's garbage utter garbage. HalfHat 11:01, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

We could just write "According to mainstream media sources, GamerGate's ostensible claims of "journalism ethics" are a meaningless, disingenuous shield for its campaign of harassment against women in gaming and its obsession with silencing social criticism of video games." That would be more concise and equally true. Once again, it's not our fault that GamerGate refuses or is unable to develop a coherent and meaningful platform that spells out exactly what issues it has with "journalism ethics" that don't boil down to "fire all SJWs" and "only fans of a video game should review that video game." If we're going to say in the lead sentence that "Gamergate supporters say it's about journalism ethics" then we surely have to explain, as best we can, how reliable sources are attempting to analyze and interpret that claim. The fact that they're not finding much of substance there is surely relevant. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:04, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

According to mainstream media sources, GamerGate's ostensible claims of "journalism ethics" are a meaningless, disingenuous shield for its campaign of harassment against women in gaming and its obsession with silencing social criticism of video games.

Or people could try to write something actually encyclopaedic. Willhesucceed (talk) 11:44, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Don't blame GG for this shitty shitty article. HalfHat 12:27, 7 November 2014 (UTC)