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:It isn't worth arguing over whether 60 seats were empty at a venue designed to hold 14,000. [http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/rio-2016-olympic-athletics-empty-stadium-a7187286.html Here] is a stadium that obviously isn't full; it is quite normal for this to happen at the Olympics. As for the Manchester bombing, it doesn't really matter whether the Ariana Grande concert was fully booked or not, but the sourcing suggests that it was pretty much fully booked.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|<span style="background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps">♦Ian<span style="background:#99c">Ma<span style="background:#aad">c</span></span>M♦</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]</sup>''''' 05:27, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
:It isn't worth arguing over whether 60 seats were empty at a venue designed to hold 14,000. [http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/rio-2016-olympic-athletics-empty-stadium-a7187286.html Here] is a stadium that obviously isn't full; it is quite normal for this to happen at the Olympics. As for the Manchester bombing, it doesn't really matter whether the Ariana Grande concert was fully booked or not, but the sourcing suggests that it was pretty much fully booked.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|<span style="background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps">♦Ian<span style="background:#99c">Ma<span style="background:#aad">c</span></span>M♦</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]</sup>''''' 05:27, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
::I don't disagree with your assessment but there is a bit of an edit/revert back&forth about how to best characterize the box-office because of the small differences between the sources. [[User:Shearonink|Shearonink]] ([[User talk:Shearonink|talk]]) 05:55, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
::I don't disagree with your assessment but there is a bit of an edit/revert back&forth about how to best characterize the box-office because of the small differences between the sources. [[User:Shearonink|Shearonink]] ([[User talk:Shearonink|talk]]) 05:55, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

== Use of the noun "attack" to describe the event ==

I have questions about the widespread use of the noun "attack" to describe this event. These questions similarly concern other accounts of violence where the use of the word "attack" seems related to the country of origin or religion of the alleged perpetrator or perpetrators. I will therefore try to raise this concern elsewhere as well. (For this reason, please bear with me if you see this comment elsewhere and it seems repetitive.)

My concern is roughly as follows. First, calling such an incident an attack uses the register of war to characterize the event. (Consider for example the widespread use of the expression _armed attack_ in the UN Charter and in other instruments treating the laws of war.) This is a very specific move and seems to me to be one of consequence in our understanding of such an event. This is to say that the use of war as an animating backdrop into which to integrate our understanding of the event is a very specific choice, and by no means the only option at our disposal. Using the noun "attack" and the backdrop of war to characterize an individual event assimilates it to the plane of collective action. Assimilating an individual act to wider collective action is a very specific interpretive choice, and one that is not disinterested. For example, characterization of an event as a crime does not generally carry the suggestion of collective action. It might be objected that characterizing such an event as a crime is not apt because of the apparent political motivation of the violence considered. Options other than imposing a frame of either war or collective action onto our understand of an event are nonetheless available. Consider our understanding of the [[Oklahoma City bombing]] or the [[Cave of the Patriarchs massacre]], for example. No one doubts the political motivation underlying either event, yet our understanding of neither of these events is animated by the suggestion of either war or collective action more generally. If it is wished to indicate a wider conspiracy underlying an individual event, such a conspiracy should be indicated explicitly, not by means of suggestion or innuendo. In a dispassionate account with ambitions of being held out as a reliable encyclopedia article, collective action should be demonstrated by the evidence provided. Collective action should not be an unsubstantiated, hollow spectre that looms over every corner of such an account.

Second, even in the case that collective action--specifically, war--is chosen and adopted as the animating register for the discussion of this event, "attack" is a particularly odd choice in characterizing it. To repeat what's already stated above, both war--and more generally, collective action--are specific interpretative choices for our understanding of this event, neither is obvious or necessary. If such an interpretative choice is adopted, such a choice should be explicit and, ideally, demonstrated by the evidence--deserving a discussion of its own. Now, in the case that collective action and war is chosen as a rubric in which to understand this event, "attack" carries an added suggestion. "Attack" suggests the initiation of hostilities. Once again the claim being made is not explicit, but is glossed over by means of suggestion and innuendo. Again, one suspects that the claim comes by way of suggestion and innuendo because it would collapse if it were made explicitly. The Pentagon and Whitehall began bombing Afghanistan in October 2001, Iraq in March 2003, Syria in September 2014, and Somalia since at least October 2016. French and affiliated NATO forces began their occupation of Afghanistan in December 2001, and of Libya in March 2011. (France has also announced a bombing campaign of the Sahel region in August 2014, that includes parts of Senegal, Mauritania, Mali, Burkina Faso, Algeria, Niger, Nigeria, Chad, Sudan, South Sudan, Eritrea, Cameroon, Central African Republic, and Ethiopia.) One is by no means obligated to understand an individual act of violence in the United States, UK, or France in the context of "war" that includes these military campaigns singularly or collectively; as already emphasized, taking such an act to be one of war is the result of a specific interpretive choice. However, in the case that this route is selected--and an act in the United States, Britain, or France is taken to be part of a war--it seems highly misleading to further portray such an act with an incipient or initiating flavor that "attack" suggests. This portrayal is again glossed over without discussion and seemingly counter to all evidence: if an individual event is understood as a collective action that is part of a wider war, using language that suggests or attributes an initiating character to such an event seems highly dubious when that event takes place 15+ years into the supposed war. Characterizing such an event as an attack seems to want it both ways: to push an account of the event as a collective action that is an act of war, and to at the same time avoid any discussion of that wider war ("attack" with its suggestion that t=0; as opposed to "response," usually reserved for justifications of the ensuring state-violence).

Use of the word "attack" to describe such an individual act thus seems to me highly incoherent. It is an interpretive choice that on the one hand suggests collective responsibility for an individual act of violence, and does so by means of innuendo rather than explicitly (for doing so explicitly would seem dubious in the absence of specific evidence that is often simply not there to be found). And on the other hand, substantive discussion of the wider war being suggested as the animating context in which the event occurs is avoided; "attack" carries with it the suggestion (again, pure innuendo unlikely to survive serious discussion) that the event has an initiating character, glossing over the possibility that such an event could be the response to something.

For these reasons, this word does not seem worthy to form the basis of a discussion which aims to be neutral or dispassionate. Rather it seems highly politicized, and on even a moment's inspection, a tendentious characterization that summarily assimilates an individual event to a collective act of war, while at the same time denying the continuity of the very war being supposed ("attack" bearing the suggestion that event initiates, rather than responds to anything). Moreover, one wonders if the term carries slanderous suggestions; the spectre of collective responsibility cast by the word seems particularly given to scapegoating. "Conspiracy theorist" is a term of derision often used to characterize the speculations of those that suppose collective action or a plot in the absence of good evidence. Well, in addition to its being unthinking newspeak--in its current, and now longstanding, uniform use--"attack" is nothing if not a term of the conspiracy theorist. Collective action is supposed in the absence of evidence. The fear-mongering of supposed collective action gives rise to the war-mongering of suggested collective responsibility.

The innuendo and spectres that one might expect to litter Pentagon briefings should not provide the basis for an encyclopedia article that aims to be disinterested.
[[User:Alfred Nemours|Alfred Nemours]] ([[User talk:Alfred Nemours|talk]]) 15:39, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Revision as of 15:39, 5 July 2017

RfC: Should 'Template:Islamic terrorism in Europe (2014–present)' be included in this article?

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
This was certainly contentious, but there have only been two comments the last two weeks, so I'll close it (I consider myself uninvolved since the only comment I made was noting the existence of a parallel discussion on another talk page). Arguments have been made on two bases:
  1. Editors' personal assessments about whether this is an instance of Islamic/Islamist terrorism.
  2. Whether WP:Reliable sources support the notion that this is an instance of Islamic/Islamist terrorism.

The former basis falls squarely under WP:Original research, and has been discounted when determining consensus per WP:Closing discussions. The latter concerns whether the inclusion of the template would violate Wikipedia's WP:Verifiability policy.

In determining whether the assertion that this is Islamic/Islamist terrorism is verified by reliable sources, the only thing that has been considered is whether the bombing has been explicitly identified as such. Circumstantial evidence and speculation can be added in prose, but the inclusion or exclusion of a template is black and white without possibility for such nuance. Note that the WP:Burden of demonstrating verifiability lies with those in favour of including the template.

Reviewing the sources put forth in this discussion, I have come to the conclusion that none of them explicitly identify the bombing as Islamic/Islamist terrorism. Consequently, they do not verify the assertion, and are not sufficient grounds for including the template. Looking at the sources in the article itself, however, I found this one from Reuters where Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Theresa May refers to this bombing as one of three terrorist attacks this year that are bound together by Islamist extremism. I'll note that Mrs. May does not use the words "Islamist" and "terrorist" in conjunction, but I would consider accusations of WP:Synthesis with regards to this to be pure WP:Wikilawyering; it cannot be both Islamist and a terrorist attack without being Islamist terrorism.

In summary, the consensus is: The template shall be included. TompaDompa (talk) 22:00, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]


Should the template Template:Islamic terrorism in Europe (2014–present) be included in this article, (and, by extension should the article be listed in the template)? MrX 16:20, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Survey
  • No - Until there are some reliable sources that describe the bombing as "Islamic (or Islamist) terrorism. Until then, the presence of the template violates WP:V and WP:NPOV.- MrX 16:47, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, assuming post brexit UK should be part of Europe. A Muslim suicide bomber committing an act of terror. The perp's muslim faith is clearly established. That this is an acr of terror is also established. Ergo this is Ialamic terror.Icewhiz (talk) 17:50, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Britain is still part of the European continent. Please don't allow your anger over European politics to influence your editing. There are many European countries that aren't a part of the EU.--v/r - TP 20:26, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, but after satisfying MrX's request for a source. I can't imagine it being particularly difficult, seeing the perp's background and ISIL's boasting. As for UK being in Europe, it's geographically bound to Europe. "Europe" != "European Union". -- sarysa (talk) 18:18, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, there isn't a great deal of ergo other than Post hoc ergo propter hoc. As I've said, the article must not conflate being a Muslim - which is OK - with being a terrorist, which isn't. It's sloppy wording when this sort of thing occurs. Citation needed for the Islamist angle first, as MrX says.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 18:24, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • No - Why is the question even asked? The probability given all we know so far, is that there is going to be a strong Islamist component to this. I can work out that possibility, so can the reader, BUT so long as there is not a very clear statement from authorities, we should not say it. Maybe is a long way from is.Pincrete (talk) 20:23, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, of course it should. SarahSV (talk) 22:47, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes as clearly relevant, whatever sources show about the exact motive. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 23:39, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes per my source below which says that police have moved away from the suspicion that he was a lone wolf.--v/r - TP 00:27, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • No. I still haven't seen any good reliable sources. Just because he was not lone-wolf, doesn't mean it Islamic terror.VR talk 04:53, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • No - I think we can all agree it was Isis related however we need reliable sources that actually state this, Maybe or could be isn't good enough. –Davey2010Talk 16:09, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • No - unless reliable sources are presented. I came here after being invited by RfC bot.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:55, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Absolutely Yes , so long as supported by proper WP:RS. Though I wouldn't be surprised if some authority or another, say, the President of the United States, attributes the whole thing to "workplace violence," for example. XavierItzm (talk) 20:12, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, definitely. Clearly relevant and clearly evident from the sources. StuartH (talk) 20:28, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment And the sources for this? Today even Theresa May refused to confirm. Yes this probably is "Islamist" and in good time that will probably be made explicit, not yet. Pincrete (talk) 20:41, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • No It might have been "Islamic (or Islamist) terrorism." It probably was. It almost certainly was. I think it was. "I think, almost certainly, probably" are not good enough, though. As yet, there are no reliable sources saying it definitely was and, therefore, it shouldn't be listed as such. Wait until there is RS.Misha An interested observer of this and that 12:09, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes We know who and what it was. Hiding it and keeping it at bay seems like an attempt to whitewash the facts. Juda S. Engelmayer (talk) 18:01, 19 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Absolutely Yes Everything indicates that he was motivated by Islamism, not by hatred for Ariana Grande's songs. --TonyaJaneMelbourne (talk) 09:12, 28 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes Sources are already overwhelmingly characterizing this as an act of terrorism and the perpetrator is said to have substantial links to ISIS (which has claimed responsibility for the attack). The litmus test for including a template is not that it satisfies or fails each individual editor's idiosyncratic notions with regard to the article's topic, but that the template be reasonably likely to be useful to a significant number of readers utilizing the article. I think it's manifestly clear that many readers studying the details of this attack may find the template useful for following up on topics which intersect with this article's subject. Snow let's rap 08:41, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Snow Rise, the RfC is not about whether this was terrorism, all sources are clear that it was. It is about whether it is 'Islamic terrorism', which is a term most sources, and certainly UK authorities have not used so far. Is there any other rational explanation given Abedi's religion, background and manner of attack? Probably not, but is 'probably no other explanation' a reliable basis for saying something now that either will, or will not be confirmed in due course?Pincrete (talk) 11:23, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I believe my initial comments already attest to why I think the Islamic angle is sufficiently established here to warrant the template. There doesn't seem to be any kind of confusion (in our sources or generally) as to just what kind of terrorist the perpetrator was. He was under investigation for links to Islamist groups, his radical views were public enough to have been reported to security services on at least five separate occasions (they were also attested to on social media), he traveled abroad to learn bomb making, and ISIS has claimed responsibility for the attack. Nor do we have to resort to any kind of synthesis of these facts; we have more than enough sources commenting on the religious dimension to robustly satisfy the WP:DUE argument. In fact, from what I can see, every single source we use in the article at present which speaks to his motivation has treated his religious views as the presumptive cause for the attack. I agree the case will be even stronger as we get more sources reporting on just what all the security services knew, but even now I think we are way, way past the minimum threshold for establishing a nexus with "Islamic terrorism in Europe" sufficient to include the template. Snow let's rap 14:18, 30 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That said, the !vote is divided enough here that it's clear it's not going to be closed immediately, and there's no harm in waiting for further details and even more explicit sourcing before re-adding the template. Snow let's rap 14:25, 30 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes Information is now even coming out that he was investigated by intelligence services as having been part of an ISIS terror cell before the attack. Sources linking the attack specifically to Islamist/ISIS terrorism: CNN, CBS. User2534 (talk) 16:19, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I see no one (in authority?) saying it is 'Islamic terrorism', I see lots of journos speculating all kinds of reasons why it probably is, could well be, is in the same pattern as etc. Pincrete (talk) 12:34, 30 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Threaded discussion
Time says that AP says that a Libyan low-ranking policemen says that the bomber's 18 year old brother says that the bomber said he "wanted to "seek victory for the Islamic State."" That is really authorative as a source. Pincrete (talk) 20:51, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Do you want me to bring Abedi back from the dead and ask him personally? IWillBuildTheRoads (talk) 22:56, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, I want WP to be based on RS not the assessment of editors. That is what distinguishes it. Readers have brains too, from the moment I heard about this incident I thought the most probable explanation is an 'Islamist' motive, I still think that. I also know that no RS has said it as yet. Do you generally believe single junior Libyan police unquestioningly, or is this a special case? Pincrete (talk) 07:20, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Terrorism in Europe whether you are left or right in your political leanings, is primarily Islamic in motive, readers already know that it was a Muslim who committed the crime, do you know why? Because it almost always is. The fact of the matter is, only recently did we get an attack in Egypt, you need to make a link between Islamism and this page, because thats clear to anyone who isn't in denial. Political motive and Islamism are strongly connected, I need only point you to the examples of Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia and other variants in other Islamic republics. The ideal of Sharia links in to this. If I am a robot, with no political leanings, no biases or agendas regarding pointing blame to ordinary Muslims, or trying to not mention the word at all to avoid offence. What would I do? I would state he was indeed a Muslim, as this was his master status, or most important defining characteristic. We know he killed himself for his beliefs, so lets state that, rather than treading on eggshells to avoid offence, don't get me wrong, I don't like that this causes people to justify Islamophobia, but we must tell the truth, this is the truth, I don't want this site to be loose with the truth and omit words for fear of offence. Factsoverfeelings (talk) 14:08, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"We know he killed himself for his beliefs". No, we don't. We may suspect it, it may be common sense to assume it, it might be "obvious"; but we don't know. We don't know that he acted because of his beliefs or because he was made to do it by someone else or because he was just insane. You are not alone in wanting the article to tell the truth; the fact is that until we have RS we don't know the truth. As I said above, ""I think, almost certainly, probably" are not good enough for an encyclopedic article.Misha An interested observer of this and that 14:17, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
What rot. Of course we know. It was a suicide bombing. Silly.74.37.202.124 (talk) 11:41, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Islamic" terrorism? Many leaders of the Islamic faith in the UK and elsewhere condemn all Islamist terrorism, including the most recent attacks in the UK which are being attributed to Islamists. Isn't the phrase "Islamic terrorism" inaccurate, a breach of WPNPOV, and, dare I say it, Islamophobic? BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 15:41, 8 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Off-topic comment: The Islamic/Islamist issue is currently under discussion at Talk:Islamic terrorism in Europe (2014–present)#Requested move 29 May 2017. TompaDompa (talk) 15:55, 8 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Abedi "used YouTube videos" to make bomb

This is on the front page of The Times today. The story is here but as usual it has a paywall so you can't see all of it. From what I read, the story is a bit misleading. Abedi may well have looked at YouTube videos, but it's unlikely that every dot and comma of the bomb's construction came from a YouTube video. As the story points out, he downloaded material from other websites about Acetone peroxide (TATP), and may have had additional help when he visited Libya.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 06:09, 24 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Abedi "banned from mosque"

Re this edit: It was reverted because it was added as part of the caption of the photo of Abedi. He was banned from a mosque "after criticising an imam for "talking bollocks""[1] but it's unclear if it was the mosque at which the photo was taken. It's also unclear if the photo was taken at a mosque, although various sources have said that it was. Some sources say that he was banned from Didsbury mosque.[2] The fact that he was banned from a mosque is notable and worth mentioning, but it needs to stick closely to the sourcing.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 11:10, 28 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would (as was done in the article) just leave out that this was taken as a mosque - it's not really relevant where the photo was taken (though this was clearly attributed to a mosque + appears to be in a mosque). I agree that it is not clear that he was banned from the mosque in which the photo was taken. The current caption of "Abedi photographed several years before the attack" is spot-on and avoids all these issues - which are tangential to the use of the image.Icewhiz (talk) 11:19, 28 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

RfC at Talk:2017

The entry involving this event is proposed at Talk:2017#RfC: Events in May and June 2017, where I invite you to comment. --George Ho (talk) 15:20, 1 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Concert "sold-out" or not?...

@Ianmacm: @Mymis: There has been some back&forth about whether or not the concert should be either characterized as sold-out ("sold-out" - early reporting from SkyNews) or if the tickets sold should be 14,200 with edit summaries stating that "it was not sold out, per Billboard".

  • Ok, so the Billboard references states "14,158 [tickets were sold and that]/14,218 [is the capacity]"...so the disagreement is over 60 (possible) seats sold?
  • So: The BBC says that 14,200 people attended BUT the box-office stats from Billboard says that 14,158 tickets were sold. The BBC is apparently off by 42 from "tickets sold" as enumerated by Billoard (maybe the Beebs rounded up?) or is rounding down from the "sold out" figure as stated by SkyNews.
  • So, "14,200" is apparently not quite correct and "sold-out" isn't quite correct either.

Unless someone is going to try to step in and characterize Billboard as being somehow unreliable, then the Billboard box-office figure of "14,158" should probably be allowed to stand as authoritative. Shearonink (talk) 00:28, 5 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't worth arguing over whether 60 seats were empty at a venue designed to hold 14,000. Here is a stadium that obviously isn't full; it is quite normal for this to happen at the Olympics. As for the Manchester bombing, it doesn't really matter whether the Ariana Grande concert was fully booked or not, but the sourcing suggests that it was pretty much fully booked.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 05:27, 5 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't disagree with your assessment but there is a bit of an edit/revert back&forth about how to best characterize the box-office because of the small differences between the sources. Shearonink (talk) 05:55, 5 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Use of the noun "attack" to describe the event

I have questions about the widespread use of the noun "attack" to describe this event. These questions similarly concern other accounts of violence where the use of the word "attack" seems related to the country of origin or religion of the alleged perpetrator or perpetrators. I will therefore try to raise this concern elsewhere as well. (For this reason, please bear with me if you see this comment elsewhere and it seems repetitive.)

My concern is roughly as follows. First, calling such an incident an attack uses the register of war to characterize the event. (Consider for example the widespread use of the expression _armed attack_ in the UN Charter and in other instruments treating the laws of war.) This is a very specific move and seems to me to be one of consequence in our understanding of such an event. This is to say that the use of war as an animating backdrop into which to integrate our understanding of the event is a very specific choice, and by no means the only option at our disposal. Using the noun "attack" and the backdrop of war to characterize an individual event assimilates it to the plane of collective action. Assimilating an individual act to wider collective action is a very specific interpretive choice, and one that is not disinterested. For example, characterization of an event as a crime does not generally carry the suggestion of collective action. It might be objected that characterizing such an event as a crime is not apt because of the apparent political motivation of the violence considered. Options other than imposing a frame of either war or collective action onto our understand of an event are nonetheless available. Consider our understanding of the Oklahoma City bombing or the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre, for example. No one doubts the political motivation underlying either event, yet our understanding of neither of these events is animated by the suggestion of either war or collective action more generally. If it is wished to indicate a wider conspiracy underlying an individual event, such a conspiracy should be indicated explicitly, not by means of suggestion or innuendo. In a dispassionate account with ambitions of being held out as a reliable encyclopedia article, collective action should be demonstrated by the evidence provided. Collective action should not be an unsubstantiated, hollow spectre that looms over every corner of such an account.

Second, even in the case that collective action--specifically, war--is chosen and adopted as the animating register for the discussion of this event, "attack" is a particularly odd choice in characterizing it. To repeat what's already stated above, both war--and more generally, collective action--are specific interpretative choices for our understanding of this event, neither is obvious or necessary. If such an interpretative choice is adopted, such a choice should be explicit and, ideally, demonstrated by the evidence--deserving a discussion of its own. Now, in the case that collective action and war is chosen as a rubric in which to understand this event, "attack" carries an added suggestion. "Attack" suggests the initiation of hostilities. Once again the claim being made is not explicit, but is glossed over by means of suggestion and innuendo. Again, one suspects that the claim comes by way of suggestion and innuendo because it would collapse if it were made explicitly. The Pentagon and Whitehall began bombing Afghanistan in October 2001, Iraq in March 2003, Syria in September 2014, and Somalia since at least October 2016. French and affiliated NATO forces began their occupation of Afghanistan in December 2001, and of Libya in March 2011. (France has also announced a bombing campaign of the Sahel region in August 2014, that includes parts of Senegal, Mauritania, Mali, Burkina Faso, Algeria, Niger, Nigeria, Chad, Sudan, South Sudan, Eritrea, Cameroon, Central African Republic, and Ethiopia.) One is by no means obligated to understand an individual act of violence in the United States, UK, or France in the context of "war" that includes these military campaigns singularly or collectively; as already emphasized, taking such an act to be one of war is the result of a specific interpretive choice. However, in the case that this route is selected--and an act in the United States, Britain, or France is taken to be part of a war--it seems highly misleading to further portray such an act with an incipient or initiating flavor that "attack" suggests. This portrayal is again glossed over without discussion and seemingly counter to all evidence: if an individual event is understood as a collective action that is part of a wider war, using language that suggests or attributes an initiating character to such an event seems highly dubious when that event takes place 15+ years into the supposed war. Characterizing such an event as an attack seems to want it both ways: to push an account of the event as a collective action that is an act of war, and to at the same time avoid any discussion of that wider war ("attack" with its suggestion that t=0; as opposed to "response," usually reserved for justifications of the ensuring state-violence).

Use of the word "attack" to describe such an individual act thus seems to me highly incoherent. It is an interpretive choice that on the one hand suggests collective responsibility for an individual act of violence, and does so by means of innuendo rather than explicitly (for doing so explicitly would seem dubious in the absence of specific evidence that is often simply not there to be found). And on the other hand, substantive discussion of the wider war being suggested as the animating context in which the event occurs is avoided; "attack" carries with it the suggestion (again, pure innuendo unlikely to survive serious discussion) that the event has an initiating character, glossing over the possibility that such an event could be the response to something.

For these reasons, this word does not seem worthy to form the basis of a discussion which aims to be neutral or dispassionate. Rather it seems highly politicized, and on even a moment's inspection, a tendentious characterization that summarily assimilates an individual event to a collective act of war, while at the same time denying the continuity of the very war being supposed ("attack" bearing the suggestion that event initiates, rather than responds to anything). Moreover, one wonders if the term carries slanderous suggestions; the spectre of collective responsibility cast by the word seems particularly given to scapegoating. "Conspiracy theorist" is a term of derision often used to characterize the speculations of those that suppose collective action or a plot in the absence of good evidence. Well, in addition to its being unthinking newspeak--in its current, and now longstanding, uniform use--"attack" is nothing if not a term of the conspiracy theorist. Collective action is supposed in the absence of evidence. The fear-mongering of supposed collective action gives rise to the war-mongering of suggested collective responsibility.

The innuendo and spectres that one might expect to litter Pentagon briefings should not provide the basis for an encyclopedia article that aims to be disinterested. Alfred Nemours (talk) 15:39, 5 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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