Wikipedia talk:Teahouse

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mobile device editing experts?

Recently we've had a brand new editor who was editing solely via their mobile device and had never edited on a desktop. Their inexperience editing combined with other editors' unfamiliarity with mobile editing caused friction that maybe could have been prevented if this person had been able to get some help from people who are expert at mobile device editing. I'm wondering if we need some subpage of teahouse to direct new mobile users to? Or maybe a bot that could mark new sections opened via mobile edit so if appropriate a teahouse helper could add a group notification to a request to ping helpers expert in mobile editing. I suspect more and more brand new users are going to be editing right from the start primarily on their phones, and apparently it's not helpful to keep asking them to learn how to indent on talk pages because depending on whether they're using the mobile site, the app, or the desktop site, there may or may not be a way for them to even try to figure out how to do that. —valereee (talk) 12:39, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Cullen328 would be the closest we have to a mobile editing (&& new users) expert. Nick Moyes dabbles too, if I am not mistaken. I think Whatamidoing (WMF) (WAID, IIRC, you are happy to be pinged when I reckon you might have something to add to, but not sure if you would rather I pinged your volunteer account) knows some technical stuff about editors (the interface, not that they don't the people).

I have long wished we could maintain one Wikipedia:List of editors willing to be pinged to the Teahouse by subject, like the Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/List of reviewers by subject. I don't remember if I have ever said it aloud though. Best, Usedtobecool ☎️ 10:22, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

@Valereee: Whilst I do quite a lot of editing via a tiny iPhone5 mobile screen, I only ever use it in its Desktop view for actual editing. I would only use Mobile view for general reading of content, not editing. (And, as an aside to WAID, and  as I said yesterday I have just had to disable the 2017 wikitext editor as it fails to function in desktop view on my phone with Safari) So I might not be the best person to offer advice. But if you were to give a user name we might be able to take a look at their edits and offer help. I accept that this is going to be a growing problem of new users working in a different way than established users do, and that we do need to address this. (Nice idea from Usedtobecool). Nick Moyes (talk) 10:38, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Nick Moyes, the user I was referring to was Pasdecomplot (whom I'm not pinging because the conflict we had was enough to convince them I was operating in bad faith) but I was more just thinking for the future. I knew they were struggling, I eventually realized it had something to do with trying to edit on mobile without ever having learned to edit on a desktop, but now I think the issues were also complicated by the limitations of the interface. I just would like to not have this kind of frustration happen to other brand-new editors, and llike I said, I suspect we will have more and more new editors coming in for help who are from the get-go editing via mobile. And of course they won't even realize it might be important to tell people at teahouse what platform they're using. I think most of us just assume people coming into the teahouse are editing via desktop, or at least I've generally made that assumption. So we'll be giving them instructions that may not even work for them. —valereee (talk) 10:57, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

@Valereee: OK, I will add them to my watchlist and endeavour to engage if I see problems when they return to editing. We have already had some constructive interaction with them here. Nick Moyes (talk) 11:09, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Nick Moyes a iPhone5 is a bit old.. can run nothing newer than iOS 10, so that doesn't exactly fall inside the group of systems that gets active testing I'm guessing. I might grab an old iPhone to check. did you also have SyntaxHighlighting enabled perhaps ? Because that is a hell in of itself on touch devices. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 15:03, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

@TheDJ: Actually, mine's is a 5S running iOS 12.4.8, but I'm a happy bunny using it.Nick Moyes (talk) 16:03, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Usedtobecool, I think that's a good idea, as long as we maintain it. I wonder if it's possible to set it up like the 'recently active admins' list so that we could check it for someone who is currently editing? Or maybe do it like the @TFA coordinators thingie, so people can add themselves/remove themselves from a list to be pinged? —valereee (talk) 11:02, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Valereee, probably the one where people can add and remove themselves. It's easy enough to check from the list who's edited lately. Maintaining an active editors' list would interfere with people's ability to add themselves I fear, which I think is more important. Regards! Usedtobecool ☎️ 14:04, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Usedtobecool, if you make that list, then please put work-me on the list for anything about editing software, and volunteer-me for anything about medicine-related articles. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 20:20, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

I also do most of my editing on my phone, but never in mobile mode. Imnsho, mobile mode, like VE, is almost malware. But I'm an old fogey who actually likes writing in wikitext. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 11:31, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

@Dodger67: Bring back DOS and batch files, or let's all try and edit on an Amstrad PCW, I say! ...ah, those were the days. Nick Moyes (talk) 11:39, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Nick Moyes people sometimes ask about my IT credentials - I own an original DOS 2 user manual, though my first experience was with CP/M. I  often catch myself trying to use wikimarkup in Word... Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 11:52, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

@Dodger67: LOL. I can relate to that. I did my Amateur Radio Examination in 1974 based on valve theory, because I found PNP/NPN transistor circuit diagrams too confusing AND I lived in a shoe box in middle of t'road! Nick Moyes (talk) 12:01, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Got my ham license in the early 90's, valve theory had then just recently been removed from the syllabus here in ZS-land. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 12:07, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

If you are bringing back DOS, then I want WordPerfect with its "Show codes" and macros, not MS Office. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 20:08, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Nope, I'll take the much more configuarable WordStar. I still have some shareware utilities I wrote for dealing with wordstar files. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 20:12, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

In my first IT job we still had punchcard machines, and I actually used them, this was a long while before Wikipedia was started. By contrast my only mobile phone edit may well be my last. Though I have done tablet edits using desktop view. I suspect that the problem we have with a stable editing community despite a growing readership is closely related to the mobile being optimised for reading rather than editing. If that is ever fixed this place, and everywhere else that supports newbies, will be busy. ϢereSpielChequers 21:58, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

@DESiegel: Yep, I used WordStar for some years, too. (I've probably got the main files illegally copied onto a floppy somewhere in a drawer at home) I've often wondered whether the WordStar development team simply got reemployed by mediawiki - the approach to editing style is so <turnonitalics>very<turnoffitalics> similar! Nick Moyes (talk) 16:03, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

• Although I am an advocate for editing by smartphone using the "desktop" site, I am not really an "expert" because I have not thoroughly investigated all the options. For example, I am an Android guy and have never edited with an iPhone. I don't have either the motivation or the time to keep trying the mobile site or the apps or any of the tricks other people use. My position is that the desktop site works just fine on current generation Android devices, and that the "desktop" name is an impediment to the promotion of smartphone editing because it falsely implies that there is something incorrect or dangerous about using that site on a phone. Nothing could be further from the truth. I've written many articles including Good articles on my phone. I help new users on my phone. I became an administrator three years ago on my phone and regularly block spammers, trolls and vandals on my phone. At this point, I do 99% of my Wikipedia editing on my phone, and use my desktop computer only when doing some advanced work with images where the big screen is helpful. I am always willing to offer help with mobile editing, and I wrote an essay, User:Cullen328/Smartphone editing. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 17:59, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

  There are multiple comments at that essay from other mobile editors, FWIW. —valereee (talk) 18:49, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

  "Small screen" and "Large screen" might be better descriptors, although some readers prefer the 'small screen' design on their laptops.

  There are major changes to the appearance of pages coming, so the non-editing differences may be less in the future. mw:Desktop improvements is the main page for that project. There will continue to be a distinction in terms of editing environments. In particular, the mobile visual editor (which is less awful than it used to be, honest!) is still going to be limited. You can make links and do simple text formatting, but not insert new tables, galleries, etc. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 20:14, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

  Whatamidoing (WMF), will people be able to thread replies easily in the mobile editor? Because that's going to cause ongoing frustration on talk pages until it's fixed. —valereee (talk) 14:00, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

  No. Or, at least, no changes to that known problem will happen soon. It is on the list, just for "later" instead of "you know, several years ago would have been nice..." Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 16:52, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

  (I've heard that the mobile site's talk pages already auto-sign comments (as of last year), but I've never tried it myself.) Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 16:54, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

• I sit at a desktop computer all day so when I'm at home I'll lounge around with an iPad, even though working on a touchscreen is so much more inefficient. Rarely edit on my phone. Mostly I prefer editing in desktop site with "classic"/"2010" textarea editor, but have tried out mobile-source, mobile-visual, desktop-NWE, and iOS-app a fair bit. [Reasons for preferring classic include: (a) inconsistent handling of edit summaries and minor-edit checkbox across other modes, (b) availability of CharInsert, (c) iOS hates pinned/floating page elements and scrolls weirdly (d) localstorage is often not big enough to recover from a tab reload, but resend-form-data gives more reliable recovery to last "show preview".] I tend to be very erratic in checking Echo notifications: am happy to be pinged, but please don't think badly of me if I don't show up in a timely fashion! — Pelagic ( messages ) – (18:23 Tue 08, AEST) 08:23, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

Host requests from new users

Do we know why we're getting all these requests from new users to become hosts at (the defunct page) WT:Teahouse/Host lounge? Is there something off-wiki that's got them all fired up? --ColinFine (talk) 13:16, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Suddenly wondering if this might be about Sushant Singh Rajput. The number of people who have come asking to get the article changed makes me wonder if somebody's been circulating the idea that if they can get to be a Teahouse Host they will somehow be able to change the article. Or is it just that every time somebody comes and asks, it's a Teahouse Host that tells them to go to Talk:Sushant Singh Rajput, so if they can be a Host they can give a different answer? --ColinFine (talk) 13:23, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

ColinFine, maybe, I can have a look. I've added a notice to the top of the page regarding different venues for applying. Ed talk! 13:44, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

@ColinFine and Ed6767: I don't actually think there's anything unusual going on- just a non-statistically significant blip in misguided requests by people wanting to add themselves to the Host list. There is a bit of chatter over on twitter about how biased wikipedia is in reporting a recent riot in one Asian country, plus moans about fund raising requests, but there's no overlap in any of the last 8 users' edits see Analysis Tool results). Two editors each made two edit requests, having been automatically directed to the Host Lounge page whilst attempting to add themselves to the list of hosts, and two have been indeffed. I have just tried to 'Become a Host' as a new editor as an new user, and was automatically referred to WT:Teahouse/Host lounge to make an edit request. I remember asking about this a couple of years ago and, to be frank, quickly came to appreciate that is the best place for them to be sent, rather than to WT:TH, where these occasional requests will simply fill out the page unnecessarily with pointless chatter. There are over 140 people watching the Hosts lounge page, including myself, who respond pretty quickly to these futile edit requests. I would certainly not advocate directing them anywhere else, to be honest, as we can deal with them there quite easily. Nick Moyes (talk) 12:05, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Why is this on my watchlist? Gjjixzho (talk) 12:16, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Only you can answer that, Gjjixzho. It is easy to click the start icon to add any page to your watchlist. Click it again, and it is removed. Nick Moyes (talk) 12:23, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

No, I've never viewed this page... Gjjixzho (talk) 12:25, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

@Gjjixzho: Both article pages and their associated talk pages are included in the 'watch this' action. So edits on talk pages will also show up. I'm guessing you chose to 'watch' the Teahouse page at some point in the past. (Do please try to indent your replies if you can.) Nick Moyes (talk) 12:28, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

@Gjjixzho: You edited at the Teahouse on 8 occasions yesterday. Presumably your preferences are to add pages you edit to your watchlist (which is, I think, the deafult preference). For each page on your watchlist, it automatically includes the corresponding talk page. --David Biddulph (talk) 12:34, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Gjjixzho (talk) 12:36, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Edit Request Wizard

Hi Teahouse hosts, I've noticed, through my time of helping other editors, that many editors will struggle with making edit requests. I created an edit request wizard to try to help with making COI or paid editing requests. Could you try pointing users to this when suggesting that they make an edit request? Thanks, Sam-2727 (talk) 16:31, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

@Sam-2727: I like the idea of making things easier for newcomers. I agree with all your statements. We have a few different wizards to help with article creation and file uploads. I even think that we have new editors that struggle to ask questions at the Teahouse. Maybe you can create a wizard that will help newcomers ask better questions here. That's one way I think the Teahouse could be better. Interstellarity (talk) 18:43, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Sam-2727, this looks quite good; thanks for creating it! Regarding adoption, I think the way to get it more widely used, in addition to the Teahouse here, would be to embed it in pages like WP:COI and WP:PSCOI. Because some people might not look fondly on big changes to the former without some discussion, I'd put this out at the Village Pump to build up some consensus and get feedback on anything that might need to be touched up. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 02:26, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Interstellarity and Sdkb, thanks for the kind words. I'll bring it up on the village pump tomorrow. Interstellarity, I don't think a wizard for asking questions would be very effective, because it would just add more steps to a user wanting to ask a question. But you are welcome to try. Sam-2727 (talk) 04:19, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Sam-2727, I'll go with your reasoning here. Another option would be to update the edit notice above to help with answering the questions. If you think it should be updated, I'll open up another discussion on how we can update it to better help new editors. Interstellarity (talk) 13:15, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

@Sam-2727: This is a nice idea, but I think it needs more work. I tried using it to declare paid editing, but ended up with this faulty declaration in the completely the wrong namespace, and with no prompt for me to add the article name to indicate what page or pages I am being paid to edit. The edit request template doesn't advise me to add in the precise text I am proposing, nor is it clear where that text should be added. I am concerned to see that you added this a week or so ago into the guidance at Wikipedia:Edit requests. Could you link to the discussion where this was thoroughly tested and its implementation agreed, as, to me, it feels premature to offer this to users in an unfinished state, even if the idea is actually a good one? Nick Moyes (talk) 08:35, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

@Sam-2727: I fixed the location where the COI declaration appears (via those edits).

Two more things that pop out from my (very limited) testing of the COI disclosure part:

1. The COI declaration template does not preload if you try to put it on a non-empty page (admittedly the most common case is probably people without a userpage). I believe you should do type=comment (instead of create) per mw:Extension:InputBox#Box_types
2. I would assume there is a way to bring the declaration to the current user's page by default. Either by replacing the "Username" default of the input box by the current user (but I could find no Magic word for it) or by redirecting the output of the box to the current user's page (same thing, not sure how to do it).

I do believe there is a bit more development needed, and above all a bit of testing, but the idea looks great to me and the existing pages are already a good start. Tigraan^{Click here to contact me} 08:55, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Tigraan, Nick Moyes, Tigraan, I've been offering it to users via OTRS who have found it helpful (I tested it myself as well), but I think they used the COI part and not the paid part. I'm going to test it over the next few days and get back to this. Sam-2727 (talk) 03:19, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

I've completed testing. See User:Sam-2727/ERW Test Cases for the checks I completed. Tigraan I changed to comment as you suggest. I could not find any way to change to the username without the use of a Lua module (which I think it would be possible to do). However, I am very inexperienced in Lua so would not be able to do this. Perhaps if someone felt encouraged to make such a module later on, they could. I did add an "automatic speedy deletion and warning" to all of the templates so if a user tries to add the request to a talk page of a non-existent article or a userpage for a user that doesn't exist, the page will automatically be tagged for speedy deletion and the user will be warned to put the exact page title next time. Sam-2727 (talk) 16:08, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

The current implementation of the PAID declaration is an if-switch that tests if the last user editing the page is the same as the page name, and if not generates Wikipedia:Edit_Request_Wizard/Paid/WrongPage and a speedy deletion tag. I am not a fan because I feel this has the potential to create lots of collateral damage (I suspect many newbies will not be able to follow the instruction to "click undo in the page history"). Notice also that even if the user has correctly entered their own username, the switch will flick if someone else later edits their userpage (which should be rare, but not impossible either, we see new editors ask for modification of their userpage sometimes).

I realize you did what you could with the tools you had and to be honest it is fairly clever, but it does not change the fact that this is a fragile workaround. I asked at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Inputbox_directing_to_editing_user's_page? if someone has a better idea. Tigraan^{Click here to contact me} 08:36, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Tigraan, thanks for bringing that up at the technical village pump, leading to the simple solution of Special:MyPage. I have now brought this up at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Adding_the_Edit_Request_Wizard_to_various_information_and_policy_pages, in hopes of formal inclusion. Sam-2727 (talk) 20:05, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Updating the featured hosts

Hello Teahouse hosts,
I was wondering if we should update the featured hosts at the Teahouse because many of those editors are no longer active here and we have a few new ones here. Any thoughts? Interstellarity (talk) 18:39, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Interstellarity, I think the host-list that's rotated at the Teahouse header should not feature inactive editors. Otherwise, I do not care. Regards! Usedtobecool ☎️ 06:03, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Wording of header

The Teahouse header says: "Welcome to the Teahouse! A friendly place where you can ask questions and get help with using and editing Wikipedia".

I wonder whether some editors may be reading this as allowing questions in general, and not just those relating to using and editing Wikipedia. Might it be wise to reword it slightly, along the lines of "A friendly place where you can ask questions to get help with using and editing Wikipedia"? --David Biddulph (talk) 21:10, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Good point, David Biddulph. I would agree that the very small tweak you propose makes eminent sense, and with no 'down side'. Nick Moyes (talk) 23:07, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

If the wording changed, but the br tag stayed in the same place, the first line would still read the same. Is the formatting also proposed to be changed? Regards, Zindor (talk) 23:17, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

@Zindor: I don't see why we'd need to change the break position in the sentence. Do you? It would simply read: "A friendly place where you can ask questions (break) to get help using and editing Wikipedia" Do you see something wrong in that? Nick Moyes (talk) 23:40, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

I'm hoping we don't either, i was just curious as it occurred to me that people only reading the first line would also be asking out-of-scope questions. For what it's worth i also support the word change. Zindor (talk) 23:57, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

I support as well; implementing the change.

Anyone who comes along asking an intelligent research question can be directed to the WP:Reference desk. Wikipedia's overall question structure is still a mess, though, which might be why people come here asking reference desk questions. The ostensible portal page, Wikipedia:Questions lists out the million different attempts at creating a question forum for Wikipedia, showcasing our inability to consolidate (see also: Help:Getting started) and overwhelming anyone just looking for a good place to go for help. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 03:53, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

I just want to remind everyone that, whilst we, as hosts, know how things work around here, new users certainly do not. It's terribly important that we respond in a friendly and helpful manner to all questions, no matter if they're off-topic. I've recently had to ask one new host to avoid curt responses, or pointing newcomers to WP:ANI as a first option. Keeping our helpful, welcoming manner is key to maintaining the Teahouse's reputation and for editor retention. Nick Moyes (talk) 08:49, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Template for moving questions

Hello,

Having spent some time at the Teahouse over the past few weeks/months, I have noticed that a lot of questions are not asked in their own section, or duplicated in another section, (on the current version Bish had to move one and I had to move two). Therefore I have created templates for these. If you need to move a question, use {{question moved}}, which produces the following:

Question moved from another section to its own.

If you want to sign it, use {{question moved|1=~~~~}}. That looks like this:

Question moved from another section to its own. Giraffer ^munch 16:52, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

There is also a question merged template ({{question merged}}). {{question merged}} Parameter 1 gives the option to link to a specific section and parameter 2 gives the option to sign. For example, {{question merged|1=[[WP:TH#Question|2=~~~~}} gives:

Question merged from WP:TH#Question section to this one. Giraffer ^munch 17:55, 20 September 2020 (UTC) .

Hopefully this is helpful and saves time. Thanks! Giraffer ^munch 17:55, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Giraffer. Although I normally just edit the original post and insert a new heading, this is a nice idea that some might well wish to use. Cheers, Nick Moyes (talk) 17:58, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Potentially useful script: section-watchlist

Hi everyone! I'm working on a user script that lets you add sections to your watchlist: User:Enterprisey/section-watchlist. It's still buggy and under heavy development, but it's already pretty helpful and I use it every day. All feedback is welcome. It might be useful here at the Teahouse to follow discussions that you've contributed to. I'm also working on an integration with reply-link so that sections get added to your watchlist when you reply. Happy editing! Enterprisey (talk!) 07:37, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Jesus Christ! Is there anything you can't do? Usedtobecool ☎️ 08:04, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

oh stop it you ^huh? :) Enterprisey (talk!) 09:32, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Enterprisey, is it (or will it (soon) be) possible to unwatch sections without visiting the pages in which they reside? Usedtobecool ☎️ 07:16, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Edit notice: uppercase header?

I have boldly converted the header of the edit notice to lowercase, because it seemed to be shouting at me. Feel free to revert if you liked it better the other way. Enterprisey (talk!) 00:20, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Replacing John From Idegon in featured hosts

John from Idegon (talk · contribs) has been blocked indefinitely. Even if he were to be unblocked (again), his history of personal attacks does not exactly fit very well with the welcoming nature of the teahouse. His featured page is at Wikipedia:Teahouse/Host/Featured/25, the content of which should probably be replaced with a new featured host. Ed talk! 06:25, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

• The latest thread of their UTP provides some context. I see a nonzero chance that the block will be appealed and lifted once they cool down, but I agree that Teahouse hosts should have a cooler temper than the average editor. Tigraan^{Click here to contact me} 07:45, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Problem with invitation template

Moved from Wikipedia:Teahouse § Problem with invitation template

 – Seems more relevant to consider this matter here. Nick Moyes (talk) 14:17, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Since nearly two years[1]], the Template:Teahouse invitation, when used on user talk pages, reads like "Teahouse invitation, you are invited to join other new editors[...]" instead of "Username, you are invited to join other new editors[...]". See here for some 500 examples. This gives a rather strange first impression. Fram (talk) 12:53, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Welcome to the Teahouse Fram! This discussion would be better placed at WT:TEA or Template talk:Teahouse invitation, especially the former, since that is the page many users who know and watch over the Teahouse but don't necessarily scroll through this page day to day watch. It appears to me, or maybe I'm just guessing, that this template was deprecated in favour of WP:Teahouse/Invitation which seems to be the same template except without the issue you point out. The talk page of that page has discussions 7 years old, which if they had been completed, might have answered the question you raise. For some strange reason, it seems nobody followed through with regard to the fact that this one was the template that was always likely to be used by everyone. Perhaps it was supposed to be redirected? I recommend moving this to the talk page and waiting for people in the know to answer. On this page, this post is likely to be archived before that has a chance to happen. Best, Usedtobecool ☎️ 13:17, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Ignore my speculation above; I only just noticed that I'd missed your first diff. Regards! Usedtobecool ☎️ 13:33, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps we can use the PAGENAME magic word. That would fix the transcluded cases. Zindor (talk) 18:13, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict × 2) I've fixed the originally reported problem with Special:Diff/983176612, although I do agree that having two templates for the same thing is un-ideal. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 18:14, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Posts by EddieLeVisco

I've just closed the latest post by EddieLeVisco. If another host or someone else wants to undo that, then feel free to do so.There actually do seem to be editors discussing things at Talk:Ed Gold, but apparently they're not doing so fast enough or correctly enough to satisfy the subject of the article. If someone wants to take a shot at trying to poitely explain things to this this person once again, then maybe this time will be the charm. However, this is starting to become a time sink that looks like it's only going to get worse if not nipped in the bud fairly soon. If someone on the otherhand wants to WP:HAT the post or even remove it outright, then that's another option. -- Marchjuly (talk) 07:54, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Seems sensible. However many times that user posts, the response will be the same- use the talkpage and WP:NODEADLINE. If they keep repeating the same message, maybe we could ask admins for a partial block to stop them posting at the Teahouse. Joseph2302 (talk) 08:10, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

I took a shot at it. I hope he reads it. Giraffer ^munch 09:13, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

I think enough advice has been given to the user. Time for us to ask them to desist from asking questions directly related to this, and on our end stop 'feeding the troll' so to speak. I'm not keen on us blocking a user from the Teahouse, however at some point it may become a necessary action for this apparent SPA. Regards, Zindor (talk) 13:08, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

I think this prima donna person has had enough of failing to fit in to our ways now, and we've certainly had enough of them disparaging or upsetting virtually every single editor who has tried to work with them. It's a classic example of how a person mght want, but not get, control of an article about them. Well done all those who tried to help him. Nick Moyes (talk) 18:06, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

UPDATE: After yet another post by this user, I have now warned them on their talk page that their pushy and disparaging edits have now reached a disruptive level, and that they may be blocked from editing here if they persist posting at WP:TH. I believe this reflects the consensus here, and I advise immediately deleting any further posts they might make without responding, and informing me or another admin so we can instigate a partial block on editing any Teahouse page - or take further action, if necessary. Nick Moyes (talk) 17:14, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

It's unfortunate things have contiunued to get worse. I don't see how EddieLeVisco can be allowed to continue to such post such things at the Teahouse. He tried something similar at WP:VPP, but it was quickly squashed. Multiple editors do actually seem to be trying to clean up the Wikipedia article in question and I think if EddieLeVisco would simply try and engage them civily on the article's talk page instead of demanding things from them, then perhaps things would settle down and be straightened out. Same goes for the editors trying to help out by post on EddieLeVisco's user talk page. His WP:BATTLEGROUND approach, however, seems to be making editors have a change of heart and making them no longer want to deal with all the drama being created.

I think this all has to do with a lack of understanding of WP:OWN and WP:NOT that probably goes all the way back to when the article was first created based on what was posted here about some marketing company employee being involved. Right from the start, it sounds like the subject and perhaps those involved in actually creating the article seemed to believe that Wikipedia might be a good way to get some free promotion. My guess is that the subject is probably WP:GNG and WP:NCREATIVE notable which means that it's unlikely that a WP:AFD is going to end up with the article deleted, but at the same time it seems impossible to give the subject the type of article he seems to want. Not an easy thing to resolve, but any more WP:ASPERSIONS or quasi-WP:OUTING at the Teahouse or anywhere else is only going to create more problems that go beyond the scope of the article, and will probably lead to a NOTHERE block. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:24, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Archive

Can someone familiar with the archive bot please get it to archive that Cappuccino thread. It's like a fly-trap and that poor user keeps getting pinged. Thanks! Zindor (talk) 22:39, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

@Zindor: The archive bot isn't at fault this time. It's that people keep adding humorous comments to the thread, which resets the timer. Posts get archived after 48 hours of inactivity - further replies will delay that. I've added an archive top/bottom template template, but had to remove the 'reason=' section as our right-hand Table of Contents list casued it to be physically separated it from the post. But hopefully in the next 12 hours it should get properly archived. The alternative would have been to have manually copied and cut the post and then pasted it into the relevant archive, but I only tend to do that when a thread gets genuinely stuck for having a naff signature somewhere, thus causing the bot to ignore it. I do agree with you that the poor Op must have wondered what all the pings were about! Nick Moyes (talk) 12:14, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Nick Moyes, the OP kept asking similar questions in their talk, like "How can we end this pandemic guys?" and "I want to make tea how to make it." Someone informed her that WP is not a social media, and the reply was "You don't know what you're talking about." I'm assuming she's one of the many people who innocently thought this is a memorial site, or a fansite, etc. I actually love the replies there though, it just shows how there are cool editors here. GeraldWL 12:20, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Nick. Zindor (talk) 14:06, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

The question, along with other ones I found ironic and silly, I started collecting and archiving on my sandbox page. If you find any other goodies, sure, add them here. Le Panini (^{Talk to}_me?) 13:08, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Movement Strategy - Prioritisation

Meeting 30/10/2020-31/10/2020

From what i gather, as part of the WMF Movement strategy, projects were asked to have a meeting on 'prioritisation'. That is to say, in the light of the Movement Strategy Recommendations , what specific areas should we be focused on and how can we achieve those goals?

Several Movement Recommendations that i feel are highly relevant:

• Improve User Experience
• Provide for Safety and Inclusion
• Manage Internal Knowledge
• Invest in Skills and Leadership Development

I believe the Teahouse should be involved in this process; there's a great wealth of experience here and the Teahouse plays an important role in editor retention. From what i can tell the 'transition' phase starts on the 1st November so time is of the essence here. It seems 'video conferencing' was encouraged for this kind of meeting, but given the hasty nature of this discussion and out of respect for the right to anonymity, i think we should keep this as a text-based discussion.

To paraphrase points already raised by Nick Moyes, there is a need for developer assistance with making virtual environments for new editors more reliable, and mobile and visual editor friendly. Also for making help pages and templates work efficiently.

An idea i'm floating is for editors to have access to online training, perhaps on subjects such as coding or researching. Access to this could be granted in a low-key, low-distribution way, by Teahouse hosts to editors who they have identified as having the potential to benefit from such training. It would help editor retention and help improve en-wiki.

I don't know the extent to which the WMF is prepared to lend assistance, if any. This discussion among ourselves could be beneficial in itself. I've notified the WMF of this meeting at Meta-wiki. Any thoughts and ideas on what we should be prioritizing, how we can achieve our goals, and also how we can future-proof editor support within Wikipedia? Regards, Zindor (talk) 21:49, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Zindor, A lot of the questions on the Teahouse seem to be about how to create articles. Users (such as Hoary) have been redirecting them to The Wikipedia Adventure rather then answering the question on how to do so. The Wikipedia Adventure is a great source! I think Improving User Experience should be the top priority for the Teahouse, as that's what were all about; making Wikipedia more friendly for newcomers. Le Panini (^{Talk to}_me?) 13:04, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Updating our rules on answering at the Teahouse

I notice that our rules for answering questions at the Teahouse are very vague compared to the help desk's detailed rules. I was wondering if we should take details out in that article and put it in our own Teahouse rules like directing general knowledge questions to the refdesk. I think once that particular page is created/modified, we should include it in our editnotice since there are always editors who want to help others at the Teahouse, but may not know where to start. I think a page similar to the help desk's rules would helpful to those who want to help out on this forum. I (or another editor) can start drafting a page on how we can better help new editors. I value everyone's input on this, but I would especially like to hear the opinions of @Nick Moyes:, @Marchjuly:, and @Cullen328:. Thanks, Interstellarity (talk) 17:45, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

I never even knew there were "rules" for answering. Just be polite and welcoming should be enough, don't need to add more rules around it unless you are seeing some problem with how things are currently. RudolfRed (talk) 00:58, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Yes, we are quite informal here, as I thought you knew, Interstellarity. The Help desk 'rules' really are TL;DR, although it does have some useful templates like {{HD/rd}} which are adaptable here, assuming one wants to avoid giving a personal reply. Some while back, after one or two editors had signed up as Hosts, yet had only ever really edited in their userspace, I did unilaterally increase the Host Requirements to 500 mainspace edits. That said, I have since welcomed a number of really great editors as Hosts who have far less mainspace edits than that. But I feel keeping that 'ballpark' criterion is still quite useful as we do really want experienced editors as Hosts. Regards, Nick Moyes (talk) 01:38, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Our aim is to have friendly, experienced editors answer questions asked by pretty much anyone. To do that, we need to ensure we have a good balance of informality and procedure, to keep the atmosphere here as least judgmental as possible, but also keep the answers as helpful as possible. On average we get a new host every week, so maybe it's worth having some sort of informal screening procedure, i.e. just a quick run through the persons contribs, checking if they're friendly, whether their answers are helpful, how good their English is, if they are experienced.

If it would be helpful, I can adapt the Help Desk templates for the Teahouse. -Giraffer ^munch 12:21, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Just for information: Every month or so I go through recently added Hosts and check their contributions before leaving them this welcome message. I maintain a spreadsheet of who I've welcomed and when they joined the Teahouse, plus whether they already contributed here prior to signing up. (There's no obligation to, though it often surprises me that some people haven't. Are we missing a trick in communication there, I wonder?). It's extremely rare that I feel I ought to decline someone adding their name unless almost all of their edits have been made in userspace, as has happened once or twice, or if they've been in receipt of a lot of warnings or guidance from other editors. As I said, each person who signs up then gets a welcome message template, which Sdkb kindly modified for me recently so that we can add a personal note or message at the end. That message includes an important link to our Host Expectations. The last editor I welcomed in this way was User:Benjamin Borg, so there are a few more now to do. Having looked through each new host's contributions and talk pages, it's sometimes possible to offer a steer on interacting most effectively within the Teahouse. An editor who adds themselves as a Host, but who doesn't contribute at all for 6 months is likely to find their entry removed some time after that, as there's no point listing hosts who haven't actually contributed. Longer established hosts would, I expect, get considerably more leeway than that, and I do approach inactive editors if I am reluctant to remove them, in the hope they might become active. I might also drop a host a note if I feel they're good on the technical help, but perhaps a bit short on the friendly tone we try to engender here. I hope this overall approach meets with the approval of my fellow host. Nick Moyes (talk) 20:25, 8 November 2020 (UTC)    

Nick Moyes, that's perfect. I had no idea you did that. Thanks, Giraffer ^munch 21:38, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

• Ultimately, the Teahouse and the help desk should be merged, but in terms of rules, I actually like ours better, since they're actually readable, whereas I very much doubt people volunteering at the help desk have thoroughly reviewed their page. One thing that I do think it might be good to add to ours, though, is a line about questions that are an attempt to jump a queue, e.g. "Can you please review my AfC draft?" I could easily see an editor who doesn't know better agreeing to do so. I don't think it's necessary to add an editnotice, since hosts are already welcomed with it, and as an editnotice it'd show up for readers, too. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 20:47, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure why merging WP:HD and WP:TH is ultimately a goal we would wish to aim for, either for their rules or their approach to editor interaction. Vive la différence! WP:HD is generally more technical and less 'user-friendly' - and I would go there for a quick answer to a difficult question, but I would not send a newbie there. The only thing I really like at the Help Desk is its superior and more accessible archive structure, which I really wish we had. Regarding potential AFC queue-jumping: I'm not sure what kind of editors you mean, Skdb? Those who sign up as Hosts ought already to know enough to appreciate how AFC operates, even if they are not AFC Reviewers themselves. If an editor does choose to help the queue-jump process, they would inevitably have to stand by their actions of moving a draft into mainspace. On rare occasions, I might consider that I would be willing to do that myself if I felt it was really, genuinely worthy of being in mainspace right now. But I would definitely prefer the Teahouse is not seen as a shortcut route to getting drafts reviewed and published, so we should not encourage that. I would be happy to discuss removing an editor as a Host if their actions here were not deemed acceptable to our ethos. I don't think we've had problems of that sort for over 3 years, though nowadays I believe we also have the ability to block an editor from certain pages, such as this one. I can't comment on Skdb's final point as I didn't fully understand it - sorry. Nick Moyes (talk) 23:56, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Nick Moyes, sorry, I worded that last sentence weirdly. As I understand it, Interstellarity proposed adding a link to our host expectations page to the editnotice that appears in the Teahouse edit window. I don't think that's necessary, since new hosts are already provided with a link to the host expectations page when they become hosts, and we don't want to clutter the editnotice.

Regarding the different help venues, I should clarify my stance. I think there should only be one main help desk for new editors, and one for experienced editors. The Teahouse has positioned itself as the main help desk for new editors, but a lot of newcomers still end up at WP:HD, so its content isn't substantially different than here. What I'd like to see is for the help desk and Teahouse to merge (mostly to the Teahouse, which I think generally functions better, but maybe adopting the help desk's more self-explanatory name), and for another venue (perhaps WP:Editor assistance/Requests) to then be set up as an explicitly "advanced help desk" that'd be semi-protected (with a banner redirecting any newcomers who might stumble upon it) and function like a WP:VPT for non-technical questions. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:55, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

@Sdkb: Not every helper here signs up to be a host. We have plenty of editors here who do good work for the Teahouse, but never sign up to be a host. I think the link is still necessary for those helpers who wish to not sign up as hosts because they may not see it if they decide against being a host. Interstellarity (talk) 19:31, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

I have used both the Teahouse and the Help Desk over the years and asked very different but focused, varied but tailored questions according to the environment and atmosphere of each given the kind of response I have come to expect from a certain type of contributing editor / host. The Teahouse just doesn't answer questions for "newbies"; but gives a more relaxed and "take a seat, grab a cup of tea, and let's chat about what you're having trouble with ..." My questions are a bit more personal in nature at the Teahouse. Where as at the Help Desk it seems more of a "Let's get down to business" direct approach from editors who are going to give it to you straight in a no-nonsense matter of fact manner. I would not like to see these two merged. I use them for two entirely separate functions of reference. For example, I might ask "Should I go to Paris" at the Teahouse; but at the Help Desk I would ask: "How do I get to Paris"; and I'm happy to know that if I asked each of these questions at the other, someone would say: "You should probably ask this over at the [ ... ]" I'm not sure we need an "Advanced Help Desk" since many times at the Help Desk I am directed to the numerous reference desks specifically set up here at WP. I guess what I'm saying is: if it ain't broke, why fix it? Maineartists (talk) 22:13, 10 November 2020 (UTC)