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December 6

Parsing of comparative sentences (English)

I was thinking about an oddity in comparative sentences. Take "My brother is taller than me" - I think this has the following form:

"My Brother" - Subject
"is" - verb
"taller than" - adjective clause
"me" - object.

First of all is that correct? Assuming that it is, a variation of this sentence is "My brother is taller than I am" ... whoa! what has happened here: My Brother" - Subject

"is" - verb
"taller than" - adjective clause
"I" - Well I is the subject form, not sure?"
"am" - another verb, in intransient form!"

My first thought is could "I am" be a noun phrase? It doesn't look like one! What's going on here? Do other languages have similar forms? -- Q Chris (talk) 09:15, 6 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Of course the first version is correct. Yes, the second version is correct. By "intransient", do you perhaps mean "intransitive"? The verb BE is never transitive (though it very often takes a predicative complement). "I am" is never a noun phrase; it's a clause. (Here, it's a comparative clause.) In your example, the clause is a complement of the preposition THAN. What's going on here? Well, you're effectively asking for an edumacation in English grammar. Just yesterday I received my copy of Huddleston, Pullum and Reynolds' brand new second edition of A Student's Introduction to English Grammar, which I warmly recommend to you. -- Hoary (talk) 09:44, 6 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, more. There's no such thing as an "adjective clause"; and "taller than" isn't even a constituent. -- Hoary (talk) 09:46, 6 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Q_Chris -- Think of "me" as a kind of Disjunctive pronoun here. For example in French, there's "je" as the 1st person pronoun subject of verbs, and "me" as the 1st person pronoun object of verbs, but both those words are commonly unstressed clitics (they have schwa vowels), so there's yet a third form "moi" when the pronoun is emphatic (pronounced as a separate word). A classic English example of a disjunctive pronoun is in "It's me", which should be "It's I" according to Latin grammar rules which were often applied to English before the 20th century, but people don't say "It's I". (They very occasionally say "It is I" when being self-consciously archaic.) AnonMoos (talk) 22:48, 6 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Alternatively, think of me as a pronoun in the accusative case, and as such the noun phrase complement of the preposition than. (In English, if a preposition takes an NP complement, and if this is a pronoun with distinctive case forms, then it's in the accusative: "about/behind/beyond/despite him" (not "he" or "his"). "Disjunctive pronoun" doesn't appear in David Crystal's A Dictionary of Linguistics and Phonetics, 6th ed; in R. L. Trask's A Dictionary of Grammatical Terms in Linguistics; or in Bas Aarts et al's Oxford Dictionary of English Grammar; and while "disjunction" does appear in each of the three, it doesn't do so with any meaning of "full-blown word and not a mere clitic". "Disjunctive pronoun" is used to describe French; on p.249 of his Foundations of French Syntax (1996), Michael Allan Jones describes how these pronouns differ from clitic pronouns (which of course are very important in French); but it's the clitic pronouns that require special treatment in this hefty book, and English doesn't have clitic pronouns. -- Hoary (talk) 00:21, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hoary -- the term "disjunctive pronoun" describes phenomena which are part of the basic core grammar of French, while when it applies to the English language it describes some semi-marginal cases which were disapproved of in the 19th century (when Latin grammar rules were commonly applied to English). However, it can still be quite useful when used to describe those particular cases. I'm not sure I care too much about dictionaries (which do not really constrain terminology used by linguists), but "disjunctive pronoun" does occur in The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Linguistics (ISBN 0-19-280008-6), so there!

-- AnonMoos (talk) 04:30, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[Edit clash] Or again (now that I'm wider awake): than is a preposition. Prepositions differ in what kinds of complement they take; than is one of many that take either a noun phrase or a subordinate clause. Above, the noun phrase is exemplified by "me". As for the subordinate clause, than (together with comparative as and informal comparative like) takes what's called a comparative clause (which would be incomplete if it were used as a main clause). The comparative clause is exemplified above by "I am". Now, a comparative clause such as this can be further reduced, resulting in "My brother is taller than I." This is grammatical (even if formal/stilted). So "My brother is taller than ____" can be completed with either accusative me or nominative I. The choice may seem to some speakers to parallel choices elsewhere ("Dave and ____ had a great time", etc); and if so, then perhaps it's hypercorrection that makes some of these speakers fret about the (perfectly good) use of me. Silly books about "correct English", "good grammar" and the like profit off these groundless fears. -- Hoary (talk) 22:51, 6 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Simples, innit, Do0d? MinorProphet (talk) 22:27, 12 December 2021 (UTC) [reply]

Children's syntax, for expresing: "whose".

Hi, I'm a non native English speaker.

I wonder, what syntax children use, to express what adults express using the syntactic word "whose".

a) For example, instead of saying "the animal whose nose is long is the elephant", the children would probably say "the animal with the long nose is the elephant", but is it the only option for them? What about "the animal who has got a long nose is the elephant"? What about "the animal having a long nose is the elephant"? To my (non native) ears, these options don't sound like children's speech, but I may be wrong.

b) Here is a more complex sentence: "The animal, whose long nose I'm touching now, is called an elephant". As a non native English speaker, I wonder what option a kid would have, to express that sentence, as long as it begins with "the animal" and ends with "is an elephant" (i.e. without changing the subject, so I disregard structures with the same meaning but with another subject, like: "Now I'm touching a long nose, of an animal called an elephant"). -- 185.24.76.184 11:19, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

I think it's "the animal that's got a long nose is an elephant". (The elephant, if it refers to elephants in the abstract, sounds like something a 19th-century biologist with a long beard would say.) For part (b) this becomes "The animal that's got a long nose that ..." Card Zero (talk) 13:58, 6 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. 14:40, 6 December 2021 (UTC) -- Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.24.76.184 (talk)

I think British children would be far more likely to say "who has a long nose" than "that's got a long nose". "that's got" sounds very American to me. DuncanHill (talk) 14:43, 6 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Don't you think they would prefer "that" (has) to "who" (has)? 16:19, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

No, and nor would British adults. "Which" would work, but "that" sounds rather American, especially for a living thing. DuncanHill (talk) 18:39, 6 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, an interesting difference between both varieties! Thnx... 19:31, 6 December 2021 (UTC) -- Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.24.76.173 (talk)

I believe that "that's got a long nose" shows acquisition and use of the construction have got. I'm amazed to see this, which I'd thought was something of a Briticism, described as sounding rather American. Perhaps an American would care to comment. -- Hoary (talk) 23:35, 6 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In American English, "I've got" and "I have" are more or less in free variation when used in the sense of possession (or whatever you'd call it in the case of "I've got/I have a cold"; I guess you don't really "possess" a cold). The difference you may be thinking of is that American English uses "I've gotten" to mean "I have obtained", and rejects "I've got" for this purpose. --Trovatore (talk) 01:34, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

When does the far more gruesome "I have gotten..." come into play? HiLo48 (talk) 01:53, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

HiLo48 -- In American English, "got" is the past participle in cases of static possession or obligation, while "gotten" is the past participle in cases of obtaining or becoming. AnonMoos (talk) 04:48, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's well put, except that I'd say the "got" instances are not felt as a participle at all; they're just part of a fixed form, and somewhat distant from any of the 3285 (at a rough estimate :-) ) meanings of the verb "get". --Trovatore (talk) 05:13, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Previous ref-desk thread on have vs. have got. Deor (talk) 19:26, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Then there's the matter of those who've gotten used to spelling "whose" as "who's". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:22, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Then theirs the second stuff, of those who replace - it's content - by theirs. Ewe no, its like speaking without saying anything. But the only (original) matter I do care about, is the way children describe the animal who's nose I'm touching now is quite long, i.e. about the way they speak about my lovely pet whose got this amazing trunk I always enjoy to look at, so whoever wants to talk about another matter, whether about replacing it's by theirs or about replacing bits by hairs or about substituting kits for pairs, should always remember mainly the original matter. . 23:45, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Henrik Kyhls "kileindgribningssystem"

Can someone help me with another puzzling translation please? Clockmaker Henrik Kyhl apparently invented a "kileindgribningssystem" as part of his work on clock towers, google seems to think this means a "wedge engagement system" but I'm unable to determine how this relates to clocks or clock towers. Any thoughts?--Jac16888 ^Talk 18:12, 6 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

According to Wiktionary, “kile” can also be translated as “gusset” (often part of a clock). After conducting a search through various dictionary sources, I think “gribning” might be more accurately translated as “gripping” or some similar word. I think it’s a conjugation of the verb “gribe”, also present on Wiktionary, with several meanings given there. I don’t really know how clocks work very well, but hopefully that helps? Cheers, postleft ✍ (Arugula) ☞ say hello! 18:36, 6 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I immediately though it sounded like some kind of escapement; but the equivalent German article, de:Hemmung contains Keil a couple of times, but not the rest of that word, so maybe not. --ColinFine (talk) 22:54, 6 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Danish verb indgribe is cognate with German eingreifen; both mean "to intervene", so indgribning can usually be translated as intervention. Here the sense must be more literal – something grabbing hold of something else. I suppose even native Danish speakers who are familiar with clockwork mechanisms will not be able to make much of the scant information supplied by this term. --Lambiam 23:16, 6 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's possible that the second paragraph on this page about a clock built by Kyhl is actually describing the wedge-engagement system, which might be the connection of the gear to the stokkedrevene (cage gear) shown in the picture. The "wedge" would be the tooth of the drive gear. The system, then, is this particular design of cage gear which can be taken apart easily to replace worn sticks. (Or I'm wrong, and this picture and accompanying text just happens to be placed after the passing mention of the kile-indgribningssystem.) Card Zero (talk) 03:19, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It is indeed unclear whether the Særlig in the sentence following the mention of the kile-indgribningssystem introduces a further elaboration on this wedge-engagement system, or a next, unconnected example of Kyhl's general engineering ingenuity. Page Kile on the Danish Wikipedia specifically mentions the tooth of a gear as an example of the "wedge effect": converting a small force on a large area to a large force on a small area. The what and how is not made more specific, whether there or in the article on gear to which the example links. The image of the cage gear serving as the sprocket of a roller chain does not show anything I'd call a wedge. --Lambiam 09:40, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Slightly confused, not sure where you're looking to see the roller chain. It isn't part of the clock, nor on da:kile or da:gear. Card Zero (talk) 10:41, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I mean the vertical structure behind the cage gear, which clearly engages with it. Perhaps it is not a flexible chain but a rigid rack. --Lambiam 10:44, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's an ordinary gearwheel, which can be seen on the left-side of the rightmost picture. It's much bigger than the cage gear, so the bit of the wheel you can see in the close-up looks linear. Card Zero (talk) 11:57, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

December 7

Meaning of "subsequent acquisition".

From here, Popular opinion was that the Screwjob and WCW's subsequent acquisition of Hart were death blows for the WWF.

What does "subsequent acquisition" mean? I Google this term, this page says that this term belongs to law. Rizosome (talk) 00:25, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's straightforwardly compositional. It's an acquisition that was subsequent. Years ago, I acquired a copy of a blue-covered grammar textbook. Later, I acquired a copy of its greyish-covered second edition. That subsequent acquisition occurred the day before yesterday. -- Hoary (talk) 00:56, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Rather than Googling words you don't understand, I would suggest you consult a dictionary, such as Wiktionary.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:30, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well, idiomatic phrases can be a problem. Though Wiktionary does try to list those to some extent. Card Zero (talk) 10:47, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As used here, no legal meaning is intended. Each of the two words should simply be understood on its own. A "good decision" is a decision that is good. A "large mountain" is a mountain that is large. A "subsequent acquisition" is an acquisition that is subsequent – in the context, subsequent to the Montreal Screwjob. --Lambiam 09:53, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I got the meaning from this lines: It's an acquisition that was subsequent. – in the context, subsequent to the Montreal Screwjob. Rizosome (talk) 00:10, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

December 8

Why "quintuple" is not "quinqueple"

The suffix "-ple" means fold. The words duple, triple, and quadruple mean 2-fold, 3-fold, and 4-fold. But when we use the word with Latin elements, we say "fifth fold" rather than "five fold". Any reason?? Was it historically common to confuse cardinal prefixes with ordinal prefixes?? Georgia guy (talk) 15:29, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Quadruple and quintuple both come from Latin via French.[1][2] <-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 15:34, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I went to the link and included in the etymology is from Latin quintus "fifth". Note the difference between fifth and five. Georgia guy (talk) 15:39, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So get in your time machine and go back to the 1500s, and ask that question. <-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 15:45, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Don't be silly. There was no Wikipedia in the 1500s. --Trovatore (talk) 20:01, 8 December 2021 (UTC) [reply]

There was, sort of, but it was kept on parchment. You had to scroll through it. <-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 21:42, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

But before you do that, check out the etymologies for single, double and triple.[3][4][5] <-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 15:49, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Georgia_guy -- Latin "Multiplicative numerals" (see Gildersleeve and Lodge, page 54), go like this: simplex, duplex, triplex, quadruplex, quincuplex. The "Proportional numerals" (adjectives), go like this (in masculine singular nominative form): simplus, duplus, triplus, quadruplus, but no form for 5 is attested. So if you want to form a non-ordinal alternative for "quintuple", it seems that "quincuple" would be most correct according to Latin analogies... AnonMoos (talk) 19:47, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The OED actually has an entry on quincuple, classified as very rare (mainly restricted to a Quincuple Psalter from around 1509). The etymology of that form is traced back to Boethius (as quincuplus, which seems to contradict your reference?), whereas quintuplex seems to be attested earlier, in the 4th century. --Wrongfilter (talk) 20:50, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

User:Wrongfilter, I saw a Wiktionary entry for quincuple, but it is short and has no entries linking to it. Georgia guy (talk) 20:54, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wrongfilter -- in the grammar I was using (Gildersleeve and Lodge), "only the following forms occur" means in Classical Latin. Boethius is considered medieval... AnonMoos (talk) 22:24, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting, I would put him in Late Antiquity, but his times are in-between more than anything else... Where do they draw the line in that grammar? I think the OED spoke about "post-classical". --Wrongfilter (talk) 23:24, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There's no specific explanation of this in the grammar ("medieval" is my term), but Boethius is not listed in the "Syntax of individual authors" index, and the lengthy syntax sections are dominated by quotes from Julius Caesar, Cicero, Livy, Tacitus, etc. The official Wikipedia term for this is Late Latin, not considered the same as Classical Latin... AnonMoos (talk) 05:52, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

L&S list the adjective quincuplex, meaning five-fold. Gaffiot also gives this word, and, moreover, the corresponding adverb quincupliciter (and the Boethian terms quincuplico "I multiply by five" and quincuplus). Wiktionary states at the entry quadruplus that this adjective is "rare in Latin" – to which I might add that it is rare in other languages as well – so presumably the old Romans had no urgent need for a further extension to higher multiplicities. But should they have felt the urge, like Boethius did, quinque + -plus = quincuplus would have served them as the more regular formation, not the odd quintus + -plus = ^✽quintuplus, literally "fifth-fold". However, the equally odd formation quintuplex is attested, and, at least according to le Trésor, this is the etymon of our term quintuple. --Lambiam 12:02, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Flying House vs Tondera House

The article The Flying House (TV series) gives the Japanese-language title as "Tondera Hausu no Daibōken (トンデラハウスの大冒険, Adventures of the Flying House)". A web search shows various pages that say the Japanese title translates to "Flying House" or "Amazing House". However, it's not clear to me that "tondera" in Japanese means "flying" or anything else. It doesn't show up in Wiktionary, and it's written in katakana, which suggests a non-Japanese word or name. My guess is that "Tondera House" is simply the name of the house in the Japanese-language version of the show, without any literal meaning. Is that correct? Is it likely to be taken from the place name of Tondela, Portugal (with the same spelling in katakana)? --Amble (talk) 18:38, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Unless a Japanese speaker here knows better, I found this forum thread which says:-

I don't think the word トンデラ came from any kind of western language. I guess that word was coined by the creator of that anime from a Japanese colloquial トンデル (tonderu), which originally means flying but also means active, fashionable, cool and so on. Alansplodge (talk) 19:09, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Katakana isn't necessarily only used for foreign words, but it could also be used for certain animals where the kanji is rarely used, or for general emphasis. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:05, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Right, katakana suggests it might be a foreign word or name, or just a made-up name, but not necessarily. One other point that could be relevant is that the Korean-language title just transliterates "Tondera", which is also consistent with it being a name instead of an ordinary word.--Amble (talk) 21:50, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Still, an actually flying house seems to me a more probable origin, than the show being named after an obscure small municipality in Portugal. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:04, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, if "tondera" means flying. It seems based on the forum post Alansplodge found that it's similar to a word that can mean "flying" (among other things), but perhaps changed a bit to make a name. I don't find exactly these words on Wiktionary, but I don't know Japanese, so a Japanese speaker can probably help clarify. --Amble (talk) 22:49, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I found a Japanese dictionary listing 翔んでる, described as a colloquialism for "flipped out, groovy", where the first character is a kanji for "to soar or fly", and putting the whole phrase through a translation tool gives ton deru, "it's flying". (What then are the other characters? I don't know enough about Japanese to say if they're katakana or some third thing. The first two characters together seem to make "ton" according to the translation tool, so how does that work if a kanji character isn't phonetic? But anyway, the forum post seems to be plausible.) (Edit after reading relevant articles: I guess they're hiragana and this is an example of okurigana.) Card Zero (talk) 01:32, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And the tiny と over the kanji character 翔 that can be seen in that dictionary is furigana. The kanji character itself is a jinmeiyō kanji (approved only for writing Japanese proper names), appended to the jōyō kanji (the official standardized list of common kanji) in 1981. --Lambiam 10:44, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[翔んでる] is a verb, as a whole. That the last three syllables (morae) are written in hiragana, is so you should be able to have it conjugated in written form. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 16:01, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks all. Given that information, to say that the title means “flying house” is simplifying things a little, but not incorrect, so the article is probably OK as it stands. —Amble (talk)|

December 9

I need a native translation of a sentence, into the following ten languages:

Chinese (Mandarin)

Arabic

French

Italian

Dutch

Greek (Cypriot variety recommended)

Korean (South Korean variety recommended)

Ukrainian (Or, less recommended, Russian)

Lithuanian

Amharic

The sentence is: "Welcome to the first stage, of the fourth international program of GAN's method, the internatinal training course of GAN, 2021"
By "program" I mean, like in: "governmental program", or "educational program", and the like.
By "stage" I mean: phase/part/step (Actually the "program" consists of a few stages).
I know to use GoogleTranslate, but I need a native translation (or at least near-native, but not less than that. Please indicate if you are only near native).
Additionally, I would like to know how to pronounce the whole translated sentence (including "2021"), so please add also the transcription in IPA (or in Latin letters, as close to the original pronunciation as possible - if you are not familiar with IPA, in which case you can use conventional digits like 3,7 and likewise - for Arabic). Please mark also the stress, e.g. by adding an apostrophe before the stressed syllable (or by typing the stressed vowel in a capital letter). As for Ukranian (or Russian), you can add a small y or a small w, where needed. As for Chinese, please add also the tones.

185.24.76.187 (talk) 12:40, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Wikipedians/Translators may be useful to you. --Jayron 32 12:43, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

UK accent

What regional accent does the talking worm (from Labyrinth (1986 film)) have in this clip?[6] Thanks. 2602:24A:DE47:B8E0:1B43:29FD:A863:33CA (talk) 23:12, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A terrible attempt at Cockney. Perhaps Dick Van Dyke was the voice coach :-) Alansplodge (talk) 23:30, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The worm was voiced by Timothy Bateson. The voice in the clip sounds processed in some way. DuncanHill (talk) 23:40, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm astonished... Alansplodge (talk) 23:47, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm reminded of appearances by British actors in American sitcoms, Friends and Frasier especially. They often adopt hideous accents, presumably to please the director. DuncanHill (talk) 23:49, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Mockney is probably a good way to go here. --Jayron 32 23:56, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe, to be a little more generous,Estuary English? Blakk and ekka 17:01, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly, though it's a bit of an archaic form of Estuary English. It feels like the British equivalent of the 1930's "gangster movie" accent like James Cagney used to use. --Jayron 32 17:13, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen several of Bateson's filmed performances. He's not putting it on, he really did talk like that. --Viennese Waltz 18:00, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks and wow. Makes me wonder about James Doohan's Scottish accent. I haven'a got the power, Kiptain! We'll blow up the ship!! 2602:24A:DE47:B8E0:1B43:29FD:A863:33CA (talk) 07:25, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't recall Scotty ever saying "kiptain". That was more likely one of Chekov's (fake) Russian-accented words. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:07, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

James Doohan is Canadian and not natively Scottish; he does not speak with the same accent as the character. For the record, his accent was apparently quite good, according to this many people were tricked into thinking it was his native accent, and it actually interfered with his ability to get other roles. --Jayron 32 13:50, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not that good. The BBC has Scotty in second place behind Mel Gibson for Film crimes against the Scottish accent, and The National (a Scottish newspaper) has him in third place in Here are six of the worst Scottish accents in TV and film history. Alansplodge (talk) 00:02, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, I've just seen Jack Whitehall on a TV chat show admitting that his American accent in Clifford the Big Red Dog was awful, so we have had our revenge! Alansplodge (talk) 00:15, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dick Van Dyke has said that his Cockney voice coach was J. Pat O'Malley, and that O'Malley's Cockney accent wasn't very good either! As for guys like James Doohan, if they spoke in a "real" Scottish accent, it might be very hard to understand them. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:37, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As an American, I can understand Nicola Sturgeon quite easily, and she's really Scottish. --Jayron 32 04:16, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think it comes down to the ability to mimic someone else's accent accurately is really difficult and takes either a lot of work or ab exceptional talent. Renée Zellweger can manage a convincing English RP and Hugh Laurie's general American accent in House (TV series) has been widely praised. Alansplodge (talk) 09:52, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

December 10

Dialog from The Matrix Reloaded

Lock: I'm recommending that you be removed from duty.
Morpheus: That is, of course, your prerogative, commander.
Lock: If it were up to me, you wouldn't set foot on a ship for the rest of your life.

What does "If it were up to me" mean? Rizosome (talk) 04:32, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If the decision were mine to make. —Tamfang (talk) 05:05, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See Wiktionary's definition number 7 for up to: "For the option or decision of." This formulation is admittedly rather clunky. The following sentence is presented as an example of usage: It’s up to you whether to get the blue one or the red one. (While based on a scene from The Matrix, this sentence does not occur as such in the dialogue of the film.) --Lambiam 10:40, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"J'avoue ma faiblesse pour ce mode, et pour le beau langage, en général." Yeah, I just showing off here. Pierre en Australie aka --Shirt58 (talk) 11:14, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Up to me" / "Up to you" / etc. is very common English usage. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:08, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And what Shirt58 is hinting at is that the sentence uses the subjunctive mood (with "were" as the verb form, rather than the more usual "was"). This is common in French but increasingly rare in English. It is used because it is not Lock's prerogative to decide, so his sentence is based on a supposed situation, not an actual one. Xuxl (talk) 13:44, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Where do these phrases even come from? Is "measure up to" the ancestor of them all, and conceptually like a Nilometer? Or perhaps up to me is short for given up to me, and conceptually related to pick up (out of somebody else's hands). Card Zero (talk) 16:01, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This sentence solved my question: If the decision were mine to make. Rizosome (talk) 05:40, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

What is the "politically correct" name for a master key.

What is the "politically correct" name for a master key? I was thinking "service key" but that might be offensive to some people too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.59.100.28 (talk) 08:09, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Skeleton key, perhaps. clpo13_(talk) 08:11, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The term "skeleton key" is applicable to keys for opening so-called warded locks, but not the more secure pin tumbler locks. --Lambiam 11:28, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Master key is politically correct. Even the most PC person would be hard pressed to be offended (slave key?). Otherwise we'd have to find new terms for music masters, master's degrees, masterpieces, etc. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:27, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

About that... To clarify, there aren't really "slave" branches in Git (at least, not by that name), but that hasn't stopped people moving away from the term "master" in favor of alternatives like "main". clpo13_(talk) 08:44, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Git can do whatever they want. But I doubt if a company such as Master Lock is going to change its name anytime soon. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:10, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe they need to change both words, we wouldn't want to upset people who've been incarcerated ;-) -- Q Chris (talk) 11:29, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There does not seem to be a substitute name. If I had to come up with one, I might consider "group key" – a key that will unlock any lock from a specific group. Compare the use of the term "group key" in cryptography, and the group concept for assigning permissions to users of an information system. --Lambiam 11:28, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In German, we would use Generalschlüssel or, more old-fashioned, Passepartout (from the French: passer partout, to get through, to pass everywhere). I don't know if the expressions General Key, or perhaps even Main key are used in English, though. Lectonar (talk) 13:53, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Jean Passepartout was a servant ... anyway, you have an alternative word in passkey, if you really need one. Wiktionary has this as a synonym of passe-partout. Card Zero (talk) 15:16, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah. wikt:passkey suffices. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 07:16, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Why the pronoun "Hers" is rarely used?

I don't the idea of how the rare pronoun hers is barely used in talking nor written comments? for example even youtube video title does not mention the word "Hers". Well this is very unusable for the word "Hers" and might get removed from dictionary. 2404:8000:1005:555:1422:A887:1E54:5A69 (talk) 10:37, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What YouTube video title are you talking about? In any case, "hers" is quite common in English. Like this example: "Is that his jacket?" "No, it's hers." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:03, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Of course there are YouTube videos with "hers" in the title: Woman tries to claim the Tesla is hers; My Girlfriend Thinks my Truck is Hers; Her Hair Is Not Hers. Also, Woman has slowly been gaining power to make decisions that are hers: [7]. --Lambiam 11:06, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The confusion may be that his is used both as a pronoun and determiner, while the determiner for hers is her. Probably because the pronoun his already ends with an s, the determiner is unchanged. Otherwise it would be his's. TFD (talk) 11:14, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As for his, the same is true for its. I wonder if "it's its" is in use. 185.24.76.178 (talk) 11:36, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"It's its" has quite a limited usage but is very much alive, as in "What's that thing sticking out of the top of the satellite phone?". "It's its areal" -- Q Chris (talk) 16:29, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In that sentence, "its" is a determiner, like "her". You could not respond to the question "What's that thing sticking out of the top of that woman?" with ^✽"It's hers hair comb." You need something like "When XQR-217-c went to the meeting of the Robot Liberation Front, it brought a friend of its along." --Lambiam 23:36, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I mean "it's its", full stop. Just as you could say "It's mine", I've wondered if "it's its" (full stop) is in use. 185.24.76.183 (talk) 08:58, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That would also explain why "his" occurs more often than "hers", in case the OP is looking at corpus data. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 13:18, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

On the other hand, I think "her" might be more common than "his", due to "her" being the female equivalent of both "him" and "his". 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 18:05, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hers is like His, but the His is the winner and Hers is the loser. Why the word his is more common than hers. I don't know how is happened to word of usage hers? I mean possesive gender pronouns Hers and His. Please somebody explain the language phenomenom! 2404:8000:1005:555:1422:A887:1E54:5A69 (talk) 12:30, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You've made some assertions about "hers" being less common than "his", but have provided no evidence that your assertions are correct. Which is to say, we cannot even begin to explain something when you haven't even established that the thing we're trying to explain is true! It may be, or it may not be, but without knowing one way or another, there is no way to proceed with answering your question. This is a concept known as a plurium interrogationum, as it states in the article "It is committed when someone asks a question that presupposes something that has not been proven or accepted by all the people involved." First, establish that it is true before trying to answer "why" it is true. --Jayron 32 12:58, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And as hinted above, don't fall into the following trap: the feminine form of "his" can be either "her" or "hers", depending on grammar. E.g. His car is parked = Her car is parked; but: The car is his = The car is hers. So obviously "his" will be more common than "hers" as it can be used in a wider array of sentences, but it has nothing to do with some sort of anti-feminine conspiracy. It's just grammar. Xuxl (talk) 13:51, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It is also worth noting that the "gender-indeterminate" pronoun in English used to be "his". This has changed over the past decades. During the 80's and 90's for example, "his/hers" was prescribed, but was resisted because of its awkwardness. During the past two decades "they" has taken on that role, and is increasingly accepted both casually and by formal style guides as the preferred pronoun for when gender is unspecified. From the mid-20th century and earlier, "his" was used in that role. --Jayron 32 13:54, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It may depend on which version of "the dictionary" you're talking about, but no word is ever removed from comprehensive dics like the OED. The longer words remain out of regular use, the more likely they are to be labeled obsolete or archaic, but they're always there, available for any of us to give them a new life. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:51, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

December 11

M. Chayet

Do the French have a way of indicating that M. Chayet (for instance) is Monsieur Chayet and not Michel or Marcel Chayet? Doug butler (talk) 01:46, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Generally, this can be resolved by context. If a text refers to every gentleman as "M. Trucmuche, you can be sure that "M." in "M. Chayet" stands for "Monsieur". If the text leaves out the "M." in general and refers, say, to Lucien Fabre as "L. Fabre", than the "M." in "M. Genevoix" is more likely to be the abbreviation of a given name such as "Maurice" or whatever. However, also in contemporary texts, the default assumption of the French reader will be that "M." abbreviates "Monsieur". The style for Monsieur Camille Joseph Alexandre Chayet will be any of "M. Chayet", "M. Alexandre Chayet" or just "Alexandre Chayet", and rarely if ever "A. Chayet". --Lambiam 08:56, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Then you have cases like M. Pokora where it's not clear what the "M" stands for (unless you're aware his first name is Mathieu). Xuxl (talk) 15:40, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Even so, in the artist name it arguably replaces specifically the nickname "Matt", not the full given name "Matthieu". --Lambiam 11:34, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just now

Why do Scottish people say "just now" instead of "now"? Thanks. 81.154.245.178 (talk) 10:08, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Just now" is equivalent to "right now" in many other English varieties. Scottish English "resulted from language contact between Scots and the Standard English of England after the 17th century" which is why they have a distinct vocabulary. Alansplodge (talk) 13:19, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've heard it many times in American English. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:34, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

But I'm not sure that it's used in the same way by Americans (or anyone else) as Scots do; see Wiktionary:just now (apparently the trait is shared by South Africans too). Alansplodge (talk) 18:50, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The examples in Wiktionary sound familiar. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:47, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

They dinna. They say "just noo". Clarityfiend (talk) 04:20, 12 December 2021 (UTC) [reply]

But sometimes they say "the noo". Martinevans123 (talk) 18:27, 12 December 2021 (UTC) [reply]

Why do Americans say "dove" instead of "dived"? Why do British people say "mobile" instead of "cell phone"? Why do Northern Irish people say "whenever" instead of "when"? Why do South Africans say "braai" instead of "barbie"? Why do Australians say "barbie" instead of "barbecue"? Because dialect. (And yes, thank you, I am aware that those are all generalisations, and some of them may even be stereotypes). --ColinFine (talk) 18:21, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And sometimes they use completely different words. For example, the South African word for "traffic lights" is "robot". 2A00:23C7:FB83:7A00:3D0B:D1B9:2F8D:B720 (talk) 19:02, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It appears from nl:Braai that the word was introduced by the Boers, who spoke a different language. 2A00:23C7:FB83:7A00:3D0B:D1B9:2F8D:B720 (talk) 19:11, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, braai is an Afrikaans borrowing. It's related to German braten and Dutch braden. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 23:02, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Is the Goldeneye line "PC or Macka" BS?

The Maksutov was invented by a Russian so I assume a ton of ex-Soviet guys can say Mac. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:31, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Is this a line from the film GoldenEye? Are we supposed to know the meaning of the term "Macka"? What did the Russian invent? A catadioptric telescope with a meniscus corrector? Is there such a thing as a PC telescope? --Lambiam 11:30, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[Edit Conflict] Not necessarily. In many languages a particular syllable or type of word might usually be followed by further sounds, rarely or never on its own, so habit causes speakers of that language to add a final vowel. For example, I have noticed (as an English speaker) when watching rugby matches commentated in Georgian, that the commentators almost invariably add a final "-i" to non-Georgian surnames ending in a consonant; so for example that fearsome trio of front-row forwards "Smith", "Jones" and "Robinson" become "Smithi", "Jonesi" and "Robinsoni". Doubtless a Russian-speaking and/or scholarly linguist Wikipedian will soon come along to elicidate on the example you specify.

[Re Lambiam's response, I presume that "PC or Macka?" refers to whether a personal computer is a(n IBM or clone) PC or a(n Apple) Macintosh (aka 'Mac').] {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.227.133 (talk) 11:44, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not familiar with Georgian. Maybe few or no native words end in a consonant? (Can't check as Georgian uses an unfamiliar alphabet). If that's the case maybe it's like Portuguese, where very very few words end in a consonant (I believe this is a feature of Romance languages generally, Italian more than Spanish from a glance at the local projects and Romanian seems similar). As the speakers find it difficult to pronounce a word beginning with "s" they often put an "e" in front which then became part of the word (e.g. estrada, "road", from Latin stratum. 2A00:23C7:FB83:7A00:3D0B:D1B9:2F8D:B720 (talk) 15:10, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's simply that nearly all Georgian surnames end in an "i" sound, so the commentators unconsciously add it to foreign names that don't have it. However, it was only an illustrative example, which doesn't directly answer SMW's query. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.227.133 (talk) 15:34, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia has a Georgian name article. The Georgian language is infamous for its heavy consonant clusters, so I doubt there's a problem with pronouncing a single "k" consonant at the end of a word, but foreign words or names could have suffixes added so that it's possible to inflect them grammatically in the same way that native words are. The basic Georgian nominative case suffix is "-i"... AnonMoos (talk) 17:23, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

On the Georgian Wikipedia, in the article on the Macintosh line of computers, the terms "Mac" and "Macbook" are transliterated as ending with the letter კ. No other words have that ending. Of the more that 12,000 words in their article on the history of Georgia, not a single one ends with a კ. --Lambiam 19:05, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We seem to be distracted by Georgian, which I only mentioned to illustrate a general linguistic point: who in the film actually utters the line? Although I gather from the article's plot synopsis that one of the film's characters is a Georgian, the majority of the "opposition" are surely Russian, and I doubt if the filmmakers would have worried about such a minor linguistic Georgian/Russian distinction, if there is one. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.227.133 (talk) 10:06, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

December 13

Well-knit

From Beveridge Webster:

A Time magazine article from 1937 said of Webster, "Dark, well-knit, young Beveridge Webster is a good swimmer, takes pride in his tennis, likes to play poker or bridge with his great good friend Igor Stravinsky. He boasts of the little slam he once made against Sidney Lenz."

What does "well-knit" mean in this context? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:15, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's in Wiktionary: wikt:well-knit. I suppose parts of him won't easily detach. Not at all friable. Card Zero (talk) 10:05, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"can include, but is not limited to"

A EULA which I just had to sign contains the words "[The bag you're buying] can include, but is not limited to [a cat]". Is there any meaning left in this sentence? I'm asking merely from a logical point of view, just about language, and am not asking for any legal advise here. To me, it appears that both what it can and what it can't include have been watered down to the point of insignificance. ◅ Sebastian 08:15, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Logically, no, it might as well say "this is a bag". Practically, though, it's drawing your attention to the possibility of a cat, or a cat and something else besides, just in case you were thinking of being surprised by either of these discoveries and making a complaint. Card Zero (talk) 09:59, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 299: / Line 299: @@
 :Wikipedia has a [[Georgian name]] article.  The Georgian language is infamous for its heavy consonant clusters, so I doubt there's a problem with pronouncing a single "k" consonant at the end of a word, but foreign words or names could have suffixes added so that it's possible to inflect them grammatically in the same way that native words are.   The basic Georgian nominative case suffix is "-i"... [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] ([[User talk:AnonMoos|talk]]) 17:23, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
 ::On the Georgian Wikipedia, in the article on the [[:ka:https://ka.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh|Macintosh]] line of computers, the terms "Mac" and "Macbook" are transliterated as ending with the letter [[კ]]. No other words have that ending. Of the more that 12,000 words in their article on the history of Georgia, not a single one ends with a კ. &nbsp;--{{#ifeq:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|{{#invoke:Redirect|main|User talk:Lambiam}}|Lambiam|{{#if:Lambiam|[[User talk:Lambiam|Lambiam]]|[[User talk:Lambiam]]}}}} 19:05, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
+:::We seem to be distracted by Georgian, which I only mentioned to illustrate a general linguistic point: who in the film actually utters the line? Although I gather from the article's plot synopsis that ''one'' of the film's characters is a Georgian, the majority of the "opposition" are surely ''Russian'', and I doubt if the filmmakers would have worried about such a minor linguistic Georgian/Russian distinction, if there is one. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/90.205.227.133|90.205.227.133]] ([[User talk:90.205.227.133|talk]]) 10:06, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
 = December 13 =