Talk:United Kingdom

Ordering of names in the first sentence

I'm going to explain my reasoning for my edit here per WP:BRD. As far as I can tell, besides this article and the one for the United States (which I edited similar to this one), country names are listed in articles with the common name or names first and the official name second. I figure that considering this article and the one on the United States are outliers, it would make more sense to edit both to be in line with the order other countries have (and beginning the article with the WP:COMMONNAME). If there is a reason the official name is given before the common name in this instance and not for any other country (and I could list one per continent to prove this point), please let me know, because a cursory glance at talk page archives did not settle it for me. Paragon Deku (talk) 22:19, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

I can see the advantage to keeping the full name first in this case, as the full title immediately makes it clearer what the country consists of – particularly for readers who find the terms UK/GB/Britain etc. confusing. So I'm not keen on this change myself. Jr8825 • Talk 23:47, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

I don’t really see how it makes it clearer beyond the bit about Northern Ireland, and the name will still be at the top of the page and on the infobox (which is the immediate eye catcher that lays out what the country consists of anyway). Paragon Deku (talk) 00:22, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

There is reasonable ambiguity as to whether the term Britain includes NI. Therefore it is preferable in this case to include the official name. It could also be argued that United Kingdom is the official name shortened, not the common name, which is not quite the same. Britain is a common name; Holland is a common name, Russia was a common name in the days of the USSR. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 00:38, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Note I am not arguing for the exclusion of the official name, just the ordering. Also, the United Kingdom (UK) is definitely a common name. Paragon Deku (talk) 01:11, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Putting the full name first makes clear to readers from the start that this article is not about the United Kingdom. Bazza (talk) 10:27, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

MOS:FIRST does seem to support Paragon Deku's point (which United Kingdom does conform to). MOS is guidance only, of course. But haven't read anything in this thread which really suggests it shouldn't be followed (for example, 'Northern Ireland' stays in the first sentence , just a few more places along - does that really alter clarity?) DeCausa (talk) 11:54, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

I think it's a case where the status quo ain't broke, and is better than the new version. The full title isn't just a rarely used label, as is the case for most countries (e.g. Federal Republic of Germany), because it defines what it's a united kingdom of, which is why I think it's slightly more useful to the reader than starting with "The United Kingdom, or Britain", as they can be confusing terms. I don't think the proposed change is wrong and my objection isn't especially strong, it's just unnecessary in my opinion. Jr8825 • Talk 14:03, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

I want to point out that if the reason for putting the full title first is so that it won’t be confused with the defunct UK, why do we have China listed first in its article before the People’s Republic of China when it could be confused with the Republic of China or the other republic of China? Why do we have Ethiopia listed before the Federal Democratic Republic of Ethiopia when it could be confused for the Ethiopian Empire? I’m pretty sure most readers can jump to the very next bolded word and realize they’re on the article for the modern nation and its modern holdings rather than an older iteration with different holdings. Paragon Deku (talk) 17:30, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Moved to #Definite article in the first sentence

 – Start of related but different discussion

I would add that where it says the United Kingdom is a country this is wrong for the UK is a union of countries not a country, the UK is a sovereign state consisting of Great Britain and Northern Ireland or Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland. There is a very big difference because these words have meaning country vs state! Wrong terminology is misinformation and we should all endeavour to be as specific as possible especially on an educational platform/encyclopedia! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.4.35 (talk) 16:28, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

The UK is a country. GoodDay (talk) 16:32, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

How and why do you think the UK is a country? You can't have a country inside a country like some sort of matrix/inception film. So you also believe England does not exist? England died along with Scotland,Wales and Northern Ireland and became the United Kingdom then? I think a lot of English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish would disagree with you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7F:8D21:7600:8C6E:2E8D:E38B:7DEB (talk) 19:55, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

What exactly are you proposing for the article's lead? GoodDay (talk) 20:06, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

"You can't have a country inside a country". Yes, you can. The word "country" has many overlapping meanings, and this question has been discussed here many times before. You are unlikely to get a different answer from raising it again. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:25, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

I propose that sovereign country is replaced with sovereign state. I believe this is far more accurate. The reason I believe this is more accurate is because United Kingdom is a union of countries but it is also a sovereign State, unlike England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland which are countries but not sovereign States. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7F:8D21:7600:8C6E:2E8D:E38B:7DEB (talk) 20:59, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Oppose, as sovereign country was a hard fought compromise. GoodDay (talk) 21:13, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Oppose, there has been a discussion and compromise to get to where it is now, and it is more likely to create confusion than create clarity as it is an overlapping terminology with multiple uses and meanings. For example: In the United States the meaning of a “state” is that of an internal part of the United States, however a “state” in the United Nations refers to the “sovereign counties” that are members of the UN. ChefBear01 (talk) 22:46, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Capital of England

The lead says, "The United Kingdom consists of four countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.[22] Their capitals are London, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast, respectively. Other than England, the constituent countries have their own devolved governments, each with varying powers."

While there are sources for the capitals of the devolved countries, there are none that say London is the capital of England. I suggest that we find a source or delete this.

London of course was the capital of England and became the capital of England and Wales, Great Britain and the United Kingdom. But since England no longer exists as a political unit and does not have a devolved government, it makes no sense to say it has a capital. There was for example no capital of Wales until 1955, when the government selected Cardiff.

TFD (talk) 23:02, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that London be deleted from England's infobox, as its capital? GoodDay (talk) 23:21, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

As has been debated to death England, Scotland etc are countries. It’s axiomatic that a country has a capital which is why Britannica’s article on England says: “In the early 19th century, England became the epicentre of a worldwide Industrial Revolution and soon the world’s most industrialized country…while London, the country’s capital, emerged as one of the world’s preeminent cities.” DeCausa (talk) 23:24, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

As I said above, the statement is ambiguous and anyway Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, "Most editors prefer reliable secondary sources over the Encyclopædia Britannica when available." London of course was the capital of Great Britain and later the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland the early 19th century, and remains the capital of the UK although not Great Britain, because it no longer exists as a legal entity. As a lawyer in England and Wales, you would not use EB as a source for constitutional law. Please provide a source that you would use.

There's also ambiguity about the term England since, per the Wales and Berwick Act 1746, England as a legal unit includes Wales. As I said above, an argument could be made that London is the capital of England and Wales, since it is a judicial division of the UK, the other two being Scotland and Northern Ireland. Each of the three has its own laws and courts of appeal. If you are a solicitor, you may belong to the Law Society of England and Wales.

GoodDay, as I mentioned above, we are discussing this article.

TFD (talk) 01:20, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

What you're suggesting would affect both the England & Wales articles & other related articles. GoodDay (talk) 01:24, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

We are discussing this article. If you want to discuss other articles, they have their own talk pages. TFD (talk) 03:48, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

It's your time to waste. GoodDay (talk) 03:58, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

I would be appreciative if you could explain why a part of the UK that had not been devolved has a capital. TFD (talk) 13:29, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

I suggest the following re-wording: "The United Kingdom consists of four countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have their own devolved governments, each with varying powers, with capitals at Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast, respectively." TFD (talk) 19:26, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

I’m opposed for the reasons expressed above and in the previous thread. Nevertheless, as TFD originally proposed I have no objection to removal of the sentence of “Their capitals are London, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast, respectively.” from the lead for the purposes of trimming. DeCausa (talk) 20:34, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

We can't deny that London is England's capital. That being said, I've no objections to deleting the sentence which comprises the constituent countries capitals. GoodDay (talk) 20:49, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

I removed the country capitals. TFD (talk) 21:46, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

I suppose if capital refer to the seat of government, then there is no capital of England as there is no government of England, just the government of the United Kingdom, therefore, it would not make sense to refer to it as such. Lolitart (talk) 11:25, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

That supposition is not necessarily true: Capital city. Bazza (talk) 11:38, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Disambiguation note

Twice @FJDEACKB: has attempted to change "country" to "sovereign state" in the article's disambiguation section. I've implemented a compromise, matching the article's intro, via changing "country" to "sovereign country". I hope FJDEACKB will accept that compromise or at least, join this discussion, rather then just 'revert'. GoodDay (talk) 01:13, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

"This article is about the sovereign state" is far better. Why? Because it is trying clarify ambiguity (the use of Great Britain). The word 'country is ambiguous. Therefore, its use here is not clarifying anything because ambiguity is trying to clarify ambiguity. Sovereign state is not ambiguous. In addition, the term sovereign country is not commonly used, if at all, and amounts to original research, unlike sovereign state which is widely used and widely understood. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 03:01, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

I already have a solution for both the disambiguation and the intro. But, no longer bother pushing for it. GoodDay (talk) 03:13, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

I had no issue with the original wording "this article is about the country" (in layman's terms, the UK is a country and I think it's perfectly adequate to distinguish it from the geographic island). The original version is my preferred one. Neither do I have issue with FJDEACKB's changed wording "this article is about the sovereign state", if other editors feel it makes things clearer. However, I'm not keen on the compromise version, "sovereign country". I'd prefer we kept the original wording or accepted FJDEACKB's change, as I think they're both simpler/more familiar than the fudged compromise. There's no need to insert "sovereign" here (unless we're opting for the familiar, frequently used phrase "sovereign state") as it's simply distinguishing the political entity from a geographic one, I think it's better to keep that detail to the actual lead – the only purpose here is to make a distinction, not explain what the UK is precisely. Jr8825 • Talk 04:46, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

If it's between using "country" or "sovereign state"? Then we should go with "country". GoodDay (talk) 04:54, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

It is always a compromise between ambiguity and readability. Often the more technically accurate you are the less readable something becomes. The purpose of using more ambiguous language is that it is often more readable so in the end makes more sense. Given that sovereign state is not unreadable or complex, and it is infinitely more technically accurate the country, I see no reason why it shouldn’t be used. It is as clear in language and clearer in meaning. (I’m not trying to claim country is wholly wrong, simply too ambiguous, especially for a disambiguation section, in which it is possibly more important to be clear than in the body of the article). FJDEACKB (talk) 10:53, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

What “ambiguity”? This is classic WP:AINTBROKE. Country is technically correct (whatever that is supposed to mean in this context as is sovereign state. However, it makes no sense to replace one word with two so leave as is. DeCausa (talk) 11:18, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Can I have half a dozen of one and six of the other please. No need for any changes. Mabuska ^(talk) 17:50, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Also agree, Country is accurate and clear. There is no need for any change on this. RWB2020 (talk) 00:01, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

It might be accurate, but it's not clear. A couple of inches down the page, in the second paragraph, you can find "The United Kingdom consists of four countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland." I know that "country" has several meanings in this article, and you all probably do as well, but some readers will not and it's incumbent on us (para 2) to make things as clear as we can. "Sovereign state" is what the hatnote is referring to, and is probably the least ambiguous term that ought to be used; particularly as Wikipedia seems to have settled on that in preference to "sovereign country". "Country" may well be "technically" correct, but, as its own article shows, it's ambiguous. Bazza (talk) 15:46, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

The vast majority (all FA's) simple say country in the opening sentence with political structure in the third paragraph... be it a partially recognized state, independent state, a dictatorship, a monarchy etc.. This is done to simply state a fact in the first sentence with further explanation later but still in the lead. Problem we have is how words are perceived differently by different peoples even English speaking countries. Good example is the UK and Australia that says "sovereign country". To many other English-speaking nations the addition of the qualifier "sovereign" implies it wasn't sovereign before or has recently become sovereign.....that i assume is supposed to have the opposite intent .Moxy- 16:41, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

The compromise for 'this' article, came about because of the refusal to describe England, Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland as constituent countries to help defuse any confusion. GoodDay (talk) 16:55, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

CLUNK! Mutt Lunker (talk) 18:19, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

I understand why.... but it's a disservice to our readers by making it even more complicated...... thus less understandable that I assume again is the opposite intent. Further in the lead is where this should be explained.... As its clear that we need more than one word to explain the situation..... especially when the one piped linked word goes to the wrong article.Moxy- 17:03, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Why not normal ? Why not regurgitate the sources most seen?Moxy- 16:47, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Yep. “Sovereign” is unnecessary. DeCausa (talk) 16:55, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

I strongly oppose any attempt to change the first sentence of this article which has been relatively stable for some years since the reasonable compromise was reached. "Sovereign country" is accurate and necessary, and it covers both the fact the United Kingdom is a country and sovereign, which distinguishes it from England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland which are countries but not sovereign. Any attempt to change the UK being described as a sovereign country would have to lead to changes to how England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are described across many wikipedia articles. Any change will cause huge amounts of unnecessary instability. RWB2020 (talk) 16:42, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

@RWB2020: All well and good, but this discussion is about the wording of the disambiguation hatnote at the top (currently This article is about the country...), not the article text. Bazza (talk) 17:22, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

My recommendation on how to avoid the confusion, isn't going to be adopted. So, do whatever ya'll think is best. GoodDay (talk) 17:07, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

So stop opportunistically harping on about it. Mutt Lunker (talk) 18:16, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Oh, hello. GoodDay (talk) 19:19, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Would changing it to "kingdom", be acceptable? GoodDay (talk) 18:03, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

References

Sionist

Sionist meaning 82.132.244.225 (talk) 14:10, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

"I can't answer him sir, I don't know what he's talking about". -- GoodDay (talk) 15:12, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Maybe they mean Zionist? Bazza (talk) 15:34, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

What we have here, is a failure to communicate

Quite a few of @Umbreus:' edits have been reverted on this article. He's made no attempts to discuss his additions 'here' or on his own talkpage. Indeed, he's never communicated with anybody on Wikipedia, since he showed up in October 2018. Seeing as this article has been his latest interest, I think it's time he start acknowledging he's not the only person in the room. GoodDay (talk) 00:03, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

RfC on use of quote in British nationality law article introduction

Editors of this article might be interested in an RfC taking place at Talk:British nationality law#rfc E6F0D24. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:04, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Interest rate rise for UK needs updating

Interest rate rise for UK needs updating 82.10.136.118 (talk) 21:09, 16 December 2021 (UTC)