Talk:Wagner Group rebellion

"Alleged" mutiny?

As far as I've seen, Prigozhin has already said that he is going against the Russian government now, and the Russian government has been issuing statements calling for Prigozhin to be prosecuted for armed rebellion and whatnot. I've seen no reliable sources describe the mutiny as "alleged", it seems that the Russian govt, Wagner group, and most RS' are in agreement that there is a real mutiny here Presidentofyes12 (talk) 23:21, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Despite Prigojin claims that he has "25k troops going for russian MOD in Rostov" - nobody saw them. There is no any evidence of it in 6 hours, while Rostov area is pretty densely populated. So this mutiny is now happening only in media. Lola Rennt (talk) 00:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Right now there is only a social media bubble following this and no confirmed Wagner attacks on russia, especially Rostov-on-Don have happened, all we have right now is blather from Prigozhin. This is alleged. Bigfatman8766 (talk • contribs) 00:41, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Both the Russian government and Wagner are confirming that it's happening. Most media are reporting on it (sources can easily be found in the discussion right below this one). I don't know what higher standard you need, but that's already far more than a "social media bubble". Chaotic Enby (talk) 00:45, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  >>Most media are reporting on it

  reporting on what? There is no any meaningfull report of Wagner and MOD encounters. There are only claims that there is a mutiny. But no any actual events of Wagner mutiny were reported. Lola Rennt (talk) 01:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Mutiny or Rebellion?

I don't know the exact term to be used, But I would say rebellion makes more sense, Wagner PMC is a paramilitary group, and they are not apart of the russian army, A "mutiny" of this size seems more like a rebellion or heck even a civil war. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 23:45, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

• Well, as of now both seem to be used in sources, although mutiny is used a bit more. We could wait to see what term sets into common usage. I, however, am concerned about whether it should be seen as "alleged" or not, because most sources are now saying that it is, indeed, happening. Presidentofyes12 (talk) 23:49, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

This is an odd case. Both the Wagner Group and the Russian MoD are well-known spreaders of misinformation, so we probably shouldn't take anything they say as true, perhaps only as "claimed". Nythar (💬-🍀) 23:52, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support rebellion. I've looked into the definitions of mutiny and rebellion more and rebellion would make more sense in this context because Wagner is a private military company, so I would assume that they don't have a legal connection to the russian military, mutiny is used for rebelling against superiors (military officers) however this seems like a direct rebellion against the kremlin and ministry of defense. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 23:56, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Just quickly looking at some of the sources here - rebellion may make sense, but I'd say better titles would be 'Wagner-Russia Skirmishes', 'Wagner-Russo Conflict' for the time being - till we get a more clear image on exactly what is going on. It appears to be way too large for the word 'mutiny' (and also this title wouldn't be easily discoverable). Foxterria (talk) 00:04, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

They're all Russians. Prigozhin claims to still obey Putin. It makes no sense to say Wagner is fighting Russia and that both are separate entities. This is a conflict between Wagner and the Ministry of Offense of the Russian Federation or, more broadly, the Russian professional army. Super Ψ Dro 00:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I concur. Wagner is its own paramilitary force, not part of the Russian Military. The term "Mutiny" is completely incorrect to use here. Nohjmich17 (talk) 05:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support rebellion. To me it appears to be a more appropriate option and while reading news, many from Russian sources, I haven't seen "mutiny" being used a single time, at least in the translation of Russian-language sources. I am not aware of how are originally English-language sources reporting on this. Super Ψ Dro 00:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support mutiny for now- I thought I'd give a proper opinion on this- most sources, as far as I've seen, seem to be citing Russian govt. allegations of "mutiny":

Russia-Ukraine war live: Russia investigates ‘mutiny’ as Wagner chief says ‘evil’ military leaders must be stopped

Mercenary chief vows retaliation after he says Russia killed 2,000 fighters, Kremlin alleges ‘armed mutiny’

Moscow accuses Wagner head of mutiny as Ukraine prepares main thrust in counteroffensive

The list goes on. So I guess it'd make sense to keep it as mutiny for now, although the fact that they seem to be saying that Moscow is accusing Wagner of mutiny could complicate things. Idk Presidentofyes12 (talk) 00:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Some sources say the Russian government is accusing Prigozhin of "mutiny" while others of "rebellion" (e.g. [1] [2]). Some sources, when showing Prigozhin's rejection of these accusations, say he denies that he is doing an "armed rebellion" (instead of mutiny) [3]. To me it appears it is a matter of translation. So maybe the issue would then fall on what word is the most appropriate. The meaning of "mutiny" does not look so to me because as some have explained above, Wagner was never subordinated to the Russian government or to whoever they're rebelling against. Super Ψ Dro 00:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Per its own article Wagner has always been a de facto arm of the Russian government and military, with Prigozhin being a close confidant of Putin and the other top commanders also being ranked Russian officers. Support "mutiny". Lightspecs (talk) 01:01, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Okay, de facto is understandable. But the fact of the matter remains that Wagner isn't legally, officially, etc., part of the Russian Military. Their chain of command extends to their own leadership, not Russian Military Leadership. Nohjmich17 (talk) 05:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support "rebellion" in the title as Wagner is a private group formerly loyal to Moscow, instead of a part of the Russian Armed Forces themselves. Although I still believe it's best to wait until we have a clearer picture of the situation. Chaotic Enby (talk) 00:14, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
• Neither. It seems to me that currently we have no evidence from WP:RS that there is an actual military rebellion by Wagner forces. All we have is lots of blabla from Prigozhin, criminal charges against him, and panic from official Russian forces with military vehicles driving around and checkpoints. A social media bubble is not an armed rebellion. Boud (talk) 00:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

That is not a valid stance. Whether this thing is real or not it is receiving huge media coverage so the article will stay at least for a while. Maybe you'd rather add "alleged" next to either "mutiny" or "rebellion" but it is clear we need to chose between one of the two. Super Ψ Dro 00:22, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Alleged? Yes. An actual rebellion or mutiny ongoing? Not for now at least. We cannot make such claims based on unreliable sources, meaning this page shouldn't have been moved to its current title. Nythar (💬-🍀) 00:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

The BBC, Reuters and The Guardian are among the outlets that are reporting on this. I do not think they're considered unreliable.

And the current is the first title this article had. It shouldn't be moved without discussion into "alleged". I believe there is a need for a discussion on this talk page for whether we should refer to this as an alleged thing or not just like we're having one for whether we should call this thing a mutiny or a rebellion. Such a discussion has not happened yet. Super Ψ Dro 00:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

The question is whether reliable sources have independently verified that the events taking place in Russia are a mutiny or rebellion. This has not yet happened, so the status of this event is currently unverified. The title is based on unreliable sources. I agree that we need a formal move request. Nythar (💬-🍀) 00:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Yeah I opened one but there has only been one reply there as of now. Presidentofyes12 (talk) 00:32, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

The mainstream Western media is reporting on claims of mutiny and using scare quotes to clarify that there's not yet any real evidence of a mutiny. The adjective "alleged" wouldn't make sense, because Prigozhin is claiming that Wagner is rebelling, it's not just the Russian authorities alleging the supposed mutiny. I'm not sure what title to propose, though. Boud (talk) 00:36, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Wagner Group coup scare With credit to Meduza manager Kevin Rothrock for inspiration. Whether the coup scare turns out to be real or not will be reported by WP:RS later. Boud (talk) 00:46, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  "Coup scare" implies that the coup wasn't real or turned out to not be as major as the scare made it look to be. So it's not neutral at all, and WP:RS currently are not claiming it's only a scare - plus, that would be pretty close to WP:CRYSTAL Chaotic Enby (talk) 01:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Decide tomorrow because currently no one really knows what the flap is going on. Volunteer Marek 00:49, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support Rebellion. Wagner is a private military company, and considering their size and no official connection to the russian military, this would be considered a rebellion, not a mutiny, since they are not rebelling against superior military officers, but directly to the kremlin and MoD DNMWN (talk) 00:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support Rebellion. Wagner group runs separately from the Russian military as a private military company. Hence, it would be considered a rebellion since it's an independent force opposing the authority of the Russian government. GodzillamanRor (talk) 01:06, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
• Wait mutiny is a fine term for the next 12 hours, and presumably the facts will be clearer by then so people can make a sensible assessment. 217.180.228.188 (talk) 01:09, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support rebellion It's the term that makes the most sense considering both what Wagner's connection is to Russia, the fact that the term is being used in RS alongside mutiny, and just accuracy of terminology. Even if Wagner is destroyed during the course of this, rebellion seems like the best word to use. Silverseren^C 01:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support rebellion, Wagner is not a component of the Russian Ground Forces but a separate organization. CJ-Moki (talk) 01:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
• Comment I question the categories used for this article and whether this can actually be considered a "coup". Since it is not a takeover by the official military forces but action by a private security company, and they haven't actually "taken over" anything yet, this term doesn't seem appropriate. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  I mean, they just took over Rostov-On-Don about 10 minutes ago. Silverseren^C 02:35, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  I wouldn't consider it as a coup in my opinion. Prigozhin hasn't made any mentions of removing Putin in his rebellion/mutiny, but he did want to remove Shoigu from Minister of Defence. GodzillamanRor (talk) 03:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support Rebellion. Mutiny is a loaded term used by Russian media to describt this. It also implies troops munitying against their commanders, which is definitely not whats happenning here,. AS has been noted, Wagner troops are not part of the Russian army, therefor are not munintying against their commanders. Deathlibrarian (talk) 03:39, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
• The overwhelming consensus here seems to support a name change to Rebellion, and that seems to be the term used in the media - I'll leave it a while, And then make the change. Deathlibrarian (talk) 03:42, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Do not make any changes, please, Deathlibrarian,before the situation clarifies and the sources out there gravitate towards a rather uniform appellation. This is not just too early to be making such unilateral decisions but we're talking about a sistuatoon that literally is developing and changing as we speak here. -The Gnome (talk) 09:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support rebellion per above: "Wagner is not a component of the Russian Ground Forces but a separate organization." Carlstak (talk) 03:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support rebellion, for reasons described above; "mutiny" implies refusal of orders against superiors of which are the same organization as yourself. Also, even the term "mutiny" likely doesn't suffice to properly describe the consequences of the seizure of the SMD HQ in Rostov-on-Don. WP:RS also use rebellion to describe the event. [7] VoidDiamondz (talk) 03:44, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support rebellion. As per above Death Editor 2 (talk) 03:44, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Comment: I wouldn't call it a "coup", but at least one Russian general has: "Lt. Gen. Vladimir Alekseev, a Russian intelligence official, also posted a video criticizing Wagner's actions on Friday, saying "This is a coup d'etat." Carlstak (talk) 03:54, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Comment - Given that the overwhelming consensus here is that "mutiny" is an incorrect descriptor, and "Wagner Rebellion" is the best term, I have submitted a request for move article to that. Cheers. (see below) Deathlibrarian (talk) 04:15, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Should it be "Wagner Rebellion" or "2023 Wagner Group rebellion"? Professor Penguino (talk) 05:01, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Weak support rebellion. While I understand mutiny, I think rebellion sounds better. Even though they were under a contract from the Russian MoD, they were a private paramilitary force. However, I think it is more widely considered a mutiny, and may cause a little confusion. Professor Penguino (talk) 04:56, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support rebellion, As per above, Wagner is not part of the Russian Ground Forces, but separate organization Tantomile (talk) 04:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support rebellion or revolt - mutiny is a little lackluster for reasons explained above. Also, oppose coup unless the Wagner Group actually succeeds. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk · Contribs) 04:47, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
• Wait & Support Rebellion, since so much of the information is unconfirmed Telegram stories, it seems that waiting and deciding tomorrow is the best choice. Nevertheless, Rebellion would be more fitting based on current information and the most likely information that will be cleared up in the coming days. LocalStinko (talk) 05:05, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
• Civil War is way, way, way, to early to use here. This conflict is not even remotely on that scale. Lets wait a lot longer. The Russian government right now is unified against Wagner, and reports of Russian soldiers siding with Wagner are few in number and don't really qualify as civil division. Nohjmich17 (talk) 05:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
• Hows about "uprising" instead of either term? Although truth be told that doesn't quite ring the right bell either.

Whatever the case, faeces about to get extant yo. The next few days are going to be interesting. AbominableIntelligence (talk) 05:42, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Hopefully this resolves itself fast. Professor Penguino (talk) 05:44, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Insurrection is the dragon y'all want to pin down. It avoids all the technical snafus. AbominableIntelligence (talk) 07:53, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Rename it to Prigozhins Rebellion. sounds tougher.
• Support rebellion, but do not name it to Wagner Rebellion - rename it to Wagner Group Rebellion. I think the term Wagner Rebellion implies that it's a popular or common name for the current military operation, whereas calling it 'Wagner Group Rebellion' would make it so that Wikipedia is not asserting a potentially sensational name for this, and simply stating that it is a rebellion done by the group. This username should not be capitalized (talk) 08:09, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support status quo i.e. "mutiny" for the time being. The situation will soon be clarified. It's a volatile situatoon that changes are as we speak.

A note on the nomenclature. It's not a coup nor an insurrection, not according to the accepted meaning of these terms. It may be classed as a rebellion or as a mutiny. The grounds for the latter as far from non-existent, and have little to do with thr official Russian term for the group's actions. We have mutinies by mercenary groups historically in the Roman Empire, in Byzantium, etc. But let's wait a bit and see. Nothing seriously wrong with the current title that needs urgent intervention. -The Gnome (talk) 09:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Strong support rebellion Mutiny is not the correct word here. Rebellion is more correct and appropriate to use, because a mutiny, in the more narrow sense, commonly refers to when soldiers in the lower ranks rebel against their own officers and leaders. The title could be very misleading here, and imply that some of Prigozhin's soldiers rebelled against Prigozhin himself. "2023 Wagner Group rebellion" or something similar would be more appropriate to use.TwistedAxe [contact] 09:48, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support rebellion This is not a simple mutiny, as the Wagner forces have captured parts in Western Russia.

TheTechnologyGuy23 (talk) 09:52, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Precedent

I think it would be useful to mention that one time in which Wagner captured a Russian colonel who was publicly humiliated into admitting he had ordered to shoot at Wagner forces because he was drunk or something. I think it was the only real conflict or clash between Wagner and Russian professionals prior to this. This is what I am talking about: [4] [5]. Super Ψ Dro 00:06, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I just added this, but it could need rephrasing or to be moved to a different place. Idk Presidentofyes12 (talk) 00:16, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Alleged fighting in Rostov-on-Don?

Several videos and claims of clashes between the MoD and Wagner in Rostov are circulating, eg [6]. Should these be mentioned, or should we wait for more sources to report on these? If it turns out to be a major fight, should there be a separate article for the "battle"? Chaotic Enby (talk) 01:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

It could be an option that we make a mention of "Unconfirmed footage of clashes", Since we don't have any way of confirming them as of right now. OneMoron (talk) 01:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Agree with this! Chaotic Enby (talk) 01:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I also agree with this, so long as they're mentioned in WP:RS. CJ-Moki (talk) 01:29, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

But it isn't. This tweet is not a reliable source. Nythar (💬-🍀) 01:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

That's why it should say "unverified claims". War Monitor is usually right about a lot of things -- just in my experience. Professor Penguino (talk) 05:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

We are gonna need to wait for reliable sources to report on the issue, it just occurred less than an hour ago, it could be a second civil war 47.40.177.156 (talk) 05:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Comparisons

Someone needs to compare and contrast the start of the russian revolution. 2602:306:BC74:6240:2D1B:6FD8:BBA:3BE0 (talk) 01:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• The See also section has a list of incidents such as Pugachev's Rebellion. I see this as similar to the 2023 Sudan conflict. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

1993 constitutional crisis in see also

I can't edit, can someone add it? Egezort (talk) 01:46, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done CJ-Moki (talk) 01:48, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Someone should add a wikibox

This is a staple of all conflict Wikipedia pages, but this certain page doesnt have one. Russian Wikipedia has already done it... why cant we? Brojiden69 (talk) 02:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Facts dude truthfully Bigbreh (talk) 02:14, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I tried adding one earlier, but ElijahPepe removed it. I agree that the article should have an infobox. CJ-Moki (talk) 02:15, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I would say add the infobox, but don't include the combatant or commander parameters. So something like this:

Wagner Group rebellion
Part of Russian invasion of Ukraine
Date 23 June 2023 – present Location Ukraine, Russia Status Ongoing

Gust Justice (talk) 02:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Small edit suggestion

I think that "and claimed that Shoigu had allegedly" is a little redundant and could be shortened to "and alleged that Shoigu had". Largely Legible Layman (talk) 02:41, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done CJ-Moki (talk) 02:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 24 June 2023

Wagner Group mutiny → Wagner Rebellion Wagner Group rebellion – The renaming of this article from Mutiny to Rebellion has been discussed, with the overwhelming consensus being the the term "mutiny" is incorrect (for a number of reasons), and that the article should be renamed "Wagner Rebellion" Thanks! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wagner_Group_mutiny#Mutiny_or_Rebellion? Deathlibrarian (talk) 04:13, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I think it should be Wagner Group Rebellion, to keep the full name in. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 04:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Agree This is no longer a simply mutiny, it’s an armed rebellion, which means the entire crisis in Russia and Ukraine has 3 sides now: Ukraine and Russian Opposition, Russian Gov. and Wagner Group. Who knows, it might escalate into a civil war!

TheTechnologyGuy23 (talk) 04:47, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

But yeah, 2023 Wagner Group Rebellion is a better title. TheTechnologyGuy23 (talk) 04:48, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

If Wagner comes to Moscow and takes power, then the article should be named the 2023 Russian coup d’etat. TheTechnologyGuy23 (talk) 04:52, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree with this, but only if it comes to this scenario. Although it seems unlikely as Moscow authorities are on high alert and Prigozhin has no intent of ousting Putin. AmericanBaath (talk) 05:04, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

In the past, there was only one coup in Russia, which was in the Soviet Union, and no one calls it the 1991 Russian coup d'état attempt (the 1993 Russian constitutional crisis is not a coup). If there is a coup, 2023 should not be in the title. Parham wiki (talk) 09:02, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Did they riot in the past years? Parham wiki (talk) 09:05, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree, but shouldn't it be changed to something along the lines of 2023 Russian Civil War? Given that now Russian forces are rebelling alongside Wagner forces against Putin and skirmishes, shelling, and battles have begun in full force, that means it is a Civil war, not just a coup d'etat - I think it should be stated as it is as bluntly as possible. Spitfire3k (talk) 04:56, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

There should be mention of a civil war as a hypothetical possibility, however this appears to be a contained rebellion at the moment. Fighting has mostly been containted to Rostov-on-Don, although there are reports of it moving up the M4 highway towards Moscow. AmericanBaath (talk) 05:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't think proper to consider it a civil war since it hasnt been confirmed that there are full on battles and skirmishes in order for it to be considered a civil war between Wagner PMC and the russian state. A rebellion is a more proper description of the situation. DNMWN (talk) 05:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

The definition of a civil war is "a war between citizens of the same country." This has surpassed a coup, because it isn't a faction of Wagner fighters from Chechnya fighting the Russian government to install a different leader or party. Russian military personnel are picking sides, with tens of thousands of soldiers being moved around Russia and Ukraine as we speak. This is a civil war, we have a video of fighting as intense as in Ukraine taking place in Russian territory. Even if this conflict doesn't last, and believe me I think it will, this is by all means civil, and it is impossible to deny at this point it is not a war. This must be recorded not as a revolt, a mutiny, or a rebellion, but as it really is - a 2023 Russian Civil War / The Second Russian Civil War. Spitfire3k (talk) 05:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Agree - The article should be renamed 2023 Wagner Group rebellion, which is also the red-link article for the stiuation on Simple English Wikipedia. AmericanBaath (talk) 04:58, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Agree, with caveats: No casualties yet to determine a civil war (also, may need to have civil parties to a conflict to be a civil war). But, also, revolt might be better for now. Support, but give it a day (really, a few hours) to see what else transpires. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 04:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Agree "Wagner Group Rebellion" would be correct, to clarify the correct title for Wagner. Deathlibrarian (talk) 05:01, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Comment - at this stage, it is a rebellion. It could become a civil war, if more forces side with Wagner, but at the current stage, you couldn't describe it as that. Deathlibrarian (talk) 05:05, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I’m willing to bet that the communists and other political movements based around revolution will revolt soon if Wagner destabilises the government enough 47.40.177.156 (talk) 05:35, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Agree - Being renamed as rebellion would be the proper description as they are not officially related to the russian state, so it is not mutiny.

DNMWN (talk) 05:02, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Agreed, should not be labelled civil war, way too premature for that, but it has definitely gone beyond a mutiny. Mutinies are usually contained to where they start, whereas this has moved on to marching into and controlling areas beyond its origin and has an ultimate goal of occupation with the possibility of structural changes in authority at the top of the Russian government. Definitely more in line with rebellion. Pmgrunert (talk) 05:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Comment - Hypothetically, if other groups joined this rebellion, what would be the name? Second Russian Civil War? Bigfatman8766 (talk) 05:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Possibly, it depends how the events unfold. "2023 Russian insurgency" could also be a viable title. I feel like going as far as to call it a "Second Russian Civil War" would require a lot more than just the expansion of the rebellion, but the total collapse of the Russian Federation into warring factions. AmericanBaath (talk) 05:22, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Agree - If Russia wins, it should be called "2023 Russian insurgency". If Russia loses it should be called "Second Russian Civil War" or "Russian Civil War (2023)". Bigfatman8766 (talk) 05:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

We may see a second civil war, history will tell 47.40.177.156 (talk) 05:36, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Wait. Perhaps the article should be renamed to 2023 Russian coup d'etat in the future). I suggest to wait until the events end and/or become clear. Just like the Sudan case. PLATEL (talk) 05:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Wait - just about nothing has happened besides some videos of tanks, there have been no casualties (at least that I've seen). For example, this could easily be some sort of distraction by Russia to disguise a new offensive; it is too early to determine what this is GLORIOUSEXISTENCE (talk) 05:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose, fits the definition of a mutiny. Rebellions are typically civilian affairs. Abductive (reasoning) 05:35, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  I don't think Rebellions are typically civilian affairs. Death Editor 2 (talk) 05:45, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  "Civilian affairs" in this context would usually be a "civil conflict" as opposed to a "rebellion" or a "civil war." AmericanBaath (talk) 05:46, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Wait. Camilo Sánchez Talk to me 05:36, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Agree it has become far too widespread to be a simple mutiny judging by the capture of the Southern Military HQ 24.236.137.89 (talk) 05:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Comment - would prefer "Wagner Group rebellion" or something along those lines. Augend (drop a line) 05:56, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Wait. Too soon to give a title that implies a civil war, which hasn't occurred at the moment. I think the year should also be added in the title as others have proposed ADifferentMan (talk) 06:04, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Agree. With the 11th largest city in Russia apparently captured and under Wagner's military control, this is way beyond a "mutiny" at this point. —Fuchsia 'tude (talk) 06:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Agree: Seconding this argument. CJ-Moki (talk) 07:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Putin has just admitted in a tv address that the country is facing a real civil war.--Kober^Talk 07:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Comment - Hi all - mostly everyone wants to remove mutiny - I htink most people would agree "2023 Wagner Group Rebellion" is the best option. Another move request to support this is below https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wagner_Group_mutiny#Requested_move_24_June_2023%2C_adding_%22Group%22_and_%222023%22Deathlibrarian (talk) 06:37, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I believe you can change the move request to "2023 Wagner Group Rebellion". I just don't like how there are two different move requests even though they both have the same consensus. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 06:41, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• As on the other section, agree adding "2023". Should "rebellion" be with a small "r"? - Master Of Ninja (talk) 06:51, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Agree I, too, believe that rebellion is a more apt term. 72.179.249.34 (talk) 07:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Oppose - they're not trying to overthrow the government, just calling for the removal of two people. All news articles are describing it as a mutiny, and it's what it's been called by the Russians. Sir Magnus has spoken! (So can you!) 07:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Wait until the situation becomes clearer. "Wagner Group mutiny" as a title is fine for now. If it is to be changed, the full name "Wagner Group" should be part of the name, eg. "Wagner Group rebellion". There's no need for a year; either they succeed, or they won't get a second chance at this. — The Anome (talk) 07:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
• Do not do anythng and wait for at least a week, the situation is changing too quickly.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:29, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely not. It is now that this article will receive the greatest number of readers seeking information (exactly the aim of an encyclopedia). It is also now that information is uncertain that outlets will resort to places such as indeed Wikipedia for information, we're risking altering information artificially and unnaturally (WP:CITOGENESIS, WP:CIRCULAR). We need to act fast. Super Ψ Dro 09:48, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Comment - I think any more discussion about this should be continued on [move 24 June 2023, adding "Group" and "2023"] as the current supportive consensus is in favor of "2023 Wagner Group Rebellion" Bigfatman8766 (talk) 07:46, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support Wagner Rebellion, no need to wait, nobody waited to make the current title. Hyperbolick (talk) 07:56, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Disagree. "Mutiny" is a less charged term than "rebellion" and the situation is far from clear at the moment. Leave it as is for at least a few days, perhaps a week. Fullmetal2887 ^{(discuss me)} 07:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

As I said above, we do not have that time. We need to offer readers the best information possible and to take measures to avoid circular reporting. If most sources used "rebellion" but because Wikipedia called it a "mutiny" it is this word that became the most common, Wikipedia has failed in its purpose. Super Ψ Dro 09:48, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

*Wait Wait until more info comes out, this situation has, can and will change rapidly. Justanotherguy54 (talk) 08:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Comment Neutral on whether the title is mutiny or rebellion, but either way it should not be capitalised as it is not a proper noun. 2A02:C7F:2CC5:5A00:A427:E859:DC99:3D6D (talk) 08:20, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Support I am actually confused on if this is a coup, rebellion, mutiny, whatever you want to call it, it's in the very early stages. But that being said, the proposed title of "Wagner Group Rebellion" seems most accurate, at least temporarily. Completely Random Guy (talk) 08:42, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Agree, should be rebellion. 2A02:2908:4101:F4E7:9DA6:217:2FDB:E096 (talk) 08:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Support The actions and methods used by Wagner constitute more than just a mutiny, but a legitimate rebellion against the Russians state. They are holding multiple cities at this point, usually a mutiny is on a much smaller, localized scale. Monological (talk) 09:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Comment If it does get moved, we would obviously apply sentence case for the title, i.e. "rebellion" with a lower case "r". Schwede66 09:09, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Comment Whatever decision is taken i'd suggest that adding 2023 to the title is probably a good idea, not only because it sounds better but also because i'm fairly sure most articles like this have the year in the title. MJ9674 (talk) 09:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support "Wagner Group rebellion", oppose adding the year, capitalizing "rebellion" or removing "Group". This has no proper name, no reason to shorten the already short name of the Wagner Group and a rebellion by the Wagner Group has not taken place before. Super Ψ Dro 09:42, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
•  Note: Closer, be aware that were three concurrent RMs, the !votes in which should also be considered.
  1. #Requested move 24 June 2023, adding "Group" and "2023"
  2. #Requested move 24 June 2023 (2)
  3. #Requested move 24 June 2023, adding "Group" and "2023" (2)

  There are duplicate !votes across the four RMs.—Alalch E. 09:47, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

The !votes at #Mutiny or Rebellion? ought to also be considered. Super Ψ Dro 09:50, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Discussion on "Wagner Group revolt"

I think Wagner Group revolt makes more sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.255.6.219 (talk) 09:50, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Possible involvement from other Russian military units

Multiple videos/images circulating currently of soldiers fighting alongside Wagner in Rostov wearing patches consistent with the Russian National Guard as well as vehicles belonging to other units. Nothing confirmed in terms of media coverage but just be on the lookout for it so we can update the infobox as needed.

If and when media begin to report on it, I would begin to think of this more as a coup attempt rather than a mutiny or a rebellion and would recommend changing the article title to reflect that. QuaintCable (talk) 04:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Additional Reaction to Mutiny

Add Exiled Russian-Jewish Billionarie and Liberal opposition activist Mikhail Khodorkovsky's support for the Wagner group expressed in the following posts under the "International Reactions" topic:

https://t.me/khodorkovski/8345 https://archive.is/lb1xv LocalStinko (talk) 04:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Dmitry Utkin in commanders and leaders

The infobox lists Dmitry Utkin in the "commanders and leanders" for the Wagner Group. There seems to be a lack of evidence for involvement by Utkin, however, and the man has made no public appearances since 2016. Is there any reason to believe he is involved? AmericanBaath (talk) 05:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Nope. I removed him and the other commander earlier and was reverted without explanation. I'm going to re-remove the material. HappyWith (talk) 05:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 24 June 2023, adding "Group" and "2023"

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: procedural close. Two RMs can't run at the same time. Keeping the older and better attended RM open. It doesn't matter that the proposed title in the original RM has a miscapitalized word, that's not a reason to start a duplicate RM. Ongoing RM: #Requested move 24 June 2023. (non-admin closure) —Alalch E. 09:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

---

:As we said in the other Requested move, people agree on adding group and 2023 to it. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 05:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Partial Agree - I also think we should "2023" to the title and make "rebellion" lower case, making it 2023 Wagner Group rebellion. AmericanBaath (talk) 05:19, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Agree with AmericanBaath: in full. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 05:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Agree- consensus seems to be to rename it to - *2023 Wagner Group Rebellion* Deathlibrarian (talk) 05:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC) Lets change it to that please, and remove mutiny at least, which is clealry incorrect. Deathlibrarian (talk) 05:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Agree. I wasn't going to add very much, just look for information. However as above, I agree with adding "2023". However should rebellion be with small 'r'? - Master Of Ninja (talk) 06:50, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Comment - "rebellion" and "2023" have been added to the move request. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 07:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Opposed to 2023 - Has this happened in the past? Parham wiki (talk) 09:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

.

Is it appropriate to call this a coup?

I don't think there is enough information out as of yet to warrant calling this a coup, much less a Civil War. What do you guys think? Professor Penguino (talk) 05:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Nope. Coups succeed in toppling governments, by definition. Nothing yet to show that occurring here. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 05:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Agreed Professor Penguino (talk) 05:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Well, attempted coups are still called coups, whether they are successful or not. The salient point here is that Priggy is still (by the looks of it) loyal to Putin and isn't attempting to overthrow the Russian government - only a part of it. That's why coup, attempted or not, is not the right word at all. AbominableIntelligence (talk) 05:51, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

None of our sources call it a coup or coup attempt so I've removed references to that for now. — Czello ^(music) 08:26, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Should a map be included?

Given that this is pretty clearly a revolt, should we create a map of some sort? I've already have one pre-made, though I've realized that mapping out the specifics at this point is difficult for obvious reasons. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk · Contribs) 05:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Please do one which doesnt label Ukrainian territory as “Russia”. Volunteer Marek 06:45, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

As far as can be told the map is supposed to be a defacto controll map not a political map there for labling those regions as being russia would imply they are russian controlled not literally a part of russia and thus the map should be mostly fine EnthrallingUsername (talk) 07:04, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

This needs to be clear. Volunteer Marek 07:20, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm of the opinion that A map showing defacto control serves the most utility in this developing situation. Although a distinction between what is occupied Ukrainian territory under defacto Russian control could be helpful. Dragon105 (talk) 07:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

It’s also unclear what the different shades mean. Volunteer Marek 06:47, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I've added keys to the caption detailing the meaning for the shades. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk · Contribs) 07:16, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps the shades could eventually be modified to be a bit more colourblind accessible? I know this is not top priority but as a colourblind person I find the colour choice is a bit hard to tell the difference between. EnthrallingUsername (talk) 07:33, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

As @Volunteer Marek said, your map needs to clarify what the shades mean. Personally I know what the shades mean having seen similar maps on YouTube videos, but it still needs clarification. AsyarSaronen (talk) 06:49, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

The map currently on there is ridiculous in overestimating Wagner control. We have no evidence that Wagner has anything but a few convoys in Rostov and along the highway to Voronezh 24.4.112.195 (talk) 06:57, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree. If there is a map at all, it should only colour yellow those areas that have been confirmed to have a sustained Wagner presence. Right now that seems to be only Bakhmut, Rostov-on-Don and Voronezh. AsyarSaronen (talk) 06:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Don't let this discourage you @Knightoftheswords281. I would prefer for there to be a map somewhere on the article for quick reference as to the status of the mutiny/coup/rebellion/what-have-you. AsyarSaronen (talk) 07:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

The original map just colored the area around Rostov. The additions since was added by @Borysk5:, who cited this tweet. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk · Contribs) 07:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Please elaborate that the areas colored as Wagner are NOT under the military occupation of Wagner besides key cities such as Rostov (as of now most have left)

Wagner is clearly moving through these territories instead of occupying them and they should thus be colored or stated as such 76.132.246.141 (talk) 07:14, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Pretty much every military map are de facto control based, meaning that areas where troops "move by" are still colored as control (see for example, C:File:Syrian_Civil_War_map.svg and the amount of sparsely populated desert is still colored). I do agree that the territory under the Wagner can be trimmed. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk · Contribs) 07:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

the map is real and accurate Chudcel (talk) 07:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Wagneratriots in control trust the plan Chudcel (talk) 07:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Slava Prigozhin! Chudcel (talk) 07:13, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Feels far too early to determine the scale and extent of territorial gains/losses on an amateurish map like this when even the nature of the conflict is still dubious at the moment. Give it a week? Or stringent community input/standards like there are on the main Ukraine invasion map? ‒overthrows 07:51, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Casualties

Recently found a video of a "downed Wagner helicopter" https://t.me/rusbrief/129265 Clearly see the tail of the helicopter as something is burning 76.132.246.141 (talk) 05:34, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

https://t.me/milinfolive/102549?single

Another of a burning Wagner technical pickup truck and claims that there is an unknown truck burning as well but not shown in the photo 76.132.246.141 (talk) 05:36, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

According Yevgeny Prigozhin on Telegram, three Russian military helicopters have been shot down, not one. AmericanBaath (talk) 05:44, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

A new February Revolution

Prigozhin previously warned of a new 1917 [7] and reemphasized its basis [8] and now we have Potemkin Mutiny [9] -- 64.229.90.172 (talk) 06:51, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Map colors

How come Crimea is painted as Russian territory? According to international treaties and ratified boundaries, Crimea is the (temporary occupied by Russia) territory of Ukraine. It should be painted by light green. Let's correct. Pterodaktilis (talk) 07:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Agree - Crimea is occupied by Russian forces, so it should be the middle green. Leave dark green for legal Russian territory.

Bigfatman8766 (talk) 07:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

@Bigfatman8766 @Pterodaktilis I fixed this and made Crimea occupied in the most recent update of the map. Noorullah (talk) 07:38, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Disagree - Crimea has been integrated into Russia for the last 8 years and is de facto Russian territory. According to the legend I woold say that is territorial control, rather than an occupation. 2600:8801:BE32:7300:E2:6D4C:F06D:8951 (talk) 07:39, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

"De facto" means it is not legally recognized, Crimea is de facto territory of Russia, so it is not legally Russia and so it is being occupied.

Bigfatman8766 (talk) 07:48, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Defacto doesn't necessarily tie into legal recognition. Defacto (in fact) just refers to the on ground reality of control, while dejure (in law) is the legal status of the territory. Therefore an area can be both dejure and defacto controlled by a political entity. Dragon105 (talk) 08:16, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

This is false, De jure means in law, De facto means in fact or in reality, thus something can be both de jure and de facto at the same time. Additionally while there has not been foriegn recognition of Russian ownership of Crimea the fact of the matter is they have for the last 8 years been the one with all meaningful controll of Crimea. Thus while there is not technical recognition of it, it helps no one to obfuscate the fact that it has been entirely in Russian hands for 8 years even if technically most countries dont recognise it. As an example there was a time when after the end of the civil war the Republic of China and it's claims where still recognised officially but the Peoples Republic of China controlled the mainland, and at that point would have been strange to say the ROC owned it at all even though their claims where recognised by many countries. EnthrallingUsername (talk) 08:19, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

The fact that Crimea is not legally recognized as a part of Russia outside Russia is very important during these events, much more important than the fact that Russia had certain degree of control over that territory for the last 8 years. Thus it must be in different color than the officially recognized territory of Russian Federation. Moreover, the status of Crimea is very similar to the status of Donetsk Oblast' of Ukraine, so painting them light green is consistent.

If yo want, you can pick shades of light green to encode the time span for which different Ukrainian territories were under Russian de facto control, but this will make the map even more complicate and is not relevant for understanding the current events.

Therefore, I vote to have Crimea in the same color as Lugansk and Donetsk regions, and also the same color as the Ukrainian territories occupied by Russia after the 24th of Feb. 2022. Pterodaktilis (talk) 08:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

"De facto" is not a well defined term. For example, Donetsk and Lugansk regions were under "de facto" Russian control to varying degree during the last 8 year period – first through the proxy separatist groups and covert Russian army presence, later through the overt Russian occupation. They are light green, as occupied territories. The same logic applies to Crimea, so it should be light green for consistency and to avoid misleading the readers (I was mislead).

The only consistent an unambiguous way to assign territory colors is to paint them according to international treaties that are currently in force. Pterodaktilis (talk) 08:22, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Should "Wagner Group" be used or "PMC Wagner"?

PMC Wagner is the official name of the group and is also easier to type, but their are multiple instances on Wikipedia where the unofficial name is used. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 07:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-june-23-2023 Marginataen (talk) 07:33, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

@Bigfatman8766 Also done, changed Wagner Group to PMC Wagner per its official name. Noorullah (talk) 07:44, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the area controlled by the Wagner Group is that large.

I have seen many videos about Wagner Group mutiny on telegram and twitter and I think it is too early to say that wagner has taken control of Rostov Oblast and Voronezh Oblast because so far there is little video evidence to support that wagner group has taken control of Rostov Oblast and Voronezh Oblast. so in my opinion at the moment wagner grub only controls the city of Rostov-on-Don and the surrounding satellite cities. Bukansatya (talk) 08:38, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Images

It would be nice if images of Wagner forces in the streets or any of the reported fighting can be added --Nilsol2 (talk) 08:51, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

@Nilsol2 All of the Wikipedia images have to be copyright free, and right now almost all of the footage from Rostov is copyrighted by news agencies or their private owners. The only way to submit a image in this article is to manually add it by an owner of one. Kuraczan (talk) 09:06, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Wagner Group casualties

Why does this section in the table include casualties before the actual start of the event? Killuminator (talk) 09:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Add putin's address?

This morning. Putin released an address to the nation regarding the "armed rebellion" in Russia. This is not only a primary source, but the address will probably be a definitive video in russian history. However, it is basically propaganda... Bigfatman8766 (talk) 09:11, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Lead section paragraph

The lead section is only one paragraph and for some viewers its to much to read. Please spit some of the line to make it two paragraph and not just one singular paragraph. SteamManx (talk) 09:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Done! Chaotic Enby (talk) 09:47, 24 June 2023 (UTC)