Talk:Flour massacre: Difference between revisions

Content deleted Content added

Inline

Revision as of 15:05, 1 March 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Flour massacre article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1

Warning: active arbitration remedies

The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:

You must be logged-in and extended-confirmed to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for making edit requests, provided they are not disruptive)
You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on any edits related to this topic

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Further information

The exceptions to the extended confirmed restriction are:

Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace only to make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive.
Non-extended-confirmed editors may not create new articles, but administrators may exercise discretion when deciding how to enforce this remedy on article creations. Deletion of new articles created by non-extended-confirmed editors is permitted but not required.

With respect to the WP:1RR restriction:

Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Also, reverts made solely to enforce the extended confirmed restriction are not considered edit warring.
Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence.

After being warned, contentious topics procedure can be used against any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process. Contentious topic sanctions can include blocks, topic-bans, or other restrictions.
Editors may report violations of these restrictions to the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard.

If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. When in doubt, don't revert!

Crime and Criminal Biography Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Death Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Human rights Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Human rights, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Human rights on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Human rightsWikipedia:WikiProject Human rightsTemplate:WikiProject Human rightsHuman rights articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Israel Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related articles

Low

This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Project Israel To Do:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Assess : Rate the Unassessed Israel-related articles and Unknown-importance Israel-related articles.
Categorization : Diffuse articles from Category:Companies of Israel.
Cleanup : Cleanup listing for this project is available. See also the list by category and the tool's wiki page.
Collaborate : Participate in WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration.
Copyedit : Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2005
Deletion sorting : Participate in discussions at WikiProject Deletion sorting/Israel.
Expand : Ayala Procaccia, Diamond industry in Israel, Edna Arbel, Levin Kipnis, Rami Kleinstein, Sephardic Haredim, Zman Tel Aviv, Nachum Heiman, Public Defence (Israel), Prisoner of Zion, Trial of Benjamin Netanyahu, Day to Mark the Departure and Expulsion of Jews from the Arab Countries and Iran, Pre-Modern Aliyah
See also Articles needing translation from Hebrew Wikipedia.
Geographical coordinates : Add geographic coordinates to Israel articles missing geocoordinate data.
Infobox : Add infoboxes to Israel articles needing infoboxes.
Maintain : See Israel articles needing attention.
Map : See discussion at Module:Location map/data/Israel. Add maps to articles in Wikipedia requested maps in Israel.
NPOV : Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries
Photo : Add pictures to articles in Wikipedia requested photographs in Israel.
Stubs : See Israel stubs.
Update : Basic Law proposal: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People
Other :
- Translate to Hebrew : David Bar-Hayim, Guy Bavli, and Guy Oseary.
- Merge Nahal Rafiah (draft, heb) into Nahal as requested by Wikipedia authority

Israel Palestine Collaboration

This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration, a collaborative, bipartisan effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. For guidelines and a participants list see the project page. See also {{Palestine-Israel enforcement}}, the ArbCom-authorized discretionary sanctions, the log of blocks and bans, and Working group on ethnic and cultural edit wars. You can discuss the project at its talk page.Israel Palestine CollaborationWikipedia:WikiProject Israel Palestine CollaborationTemplate:WikiProject Israel Palestine CollaborationIsrael Palestine Collaboration articles

Palestine Low‑importance

	Palestine portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic Palestine region, the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine on Wikipedia. Join us by visiting the project page, where you can add your name to the list of members where you can contribute to the discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Military history: Middle East / Post-Cold War List‑class

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

List

This article has been rated as List-class on the project's quality scale.

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion not met

Associated task forces:
/
	Middle Eastern military history task force
	Post-Cold War task force

Disaster management Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Disaster management, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Disaster management on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Disaster managementWikipedia:WikiProject Disaster managementTemplate:WikiProject Disaster managementDisaster management articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Firearms Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Firearms, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of firearms on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FirearmsWikipedia:WikiProject FirearmsTemplate:WikiProject FirearmsFirearms articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Requested move 29 February 2024

It has been proposed in this section that Flour massacre be renamed and moved to Al-Rashid massacre.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly.

Links: current log • target log • direct move

Al-Rashid humanitarian aid incident → Al-Rashid massacre – If it really did happen then its not an "incident", its a massacre of civillians that relied on humanitarian aid. Not calling an attack on civillians that killed 112 people a massacre is supporting Israeli propaganda. Lukt64 (talk) 23:28, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support. The current title completely obscures the true nature of the event. Salmoonlight (talk) 23:32, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I agree "incident" is too vague, but a more neutral title would be something along the lines of "Al-Rashid Aid Riot" imho.Tdmurlock (talk) 23:50, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Riot" puts the responsibility for the killings on the Palestinians themselves, as opposed to the IDF, who appear to be the perpetrators. 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 23:53, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Salmoonlight (talk) 23:54, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I contend that "riot" doesn't really attribute responsibility one way or the other. Plenty of events that we refer to as "riots" (for example, the Rodney King Riots) are characterized by violent crackdowns against the rioters. Tdmurlock (talk) 00:02, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

'Support. This is one of the most bizarre outcomes I've ever seen on Wikipedia. It was a massacre and incidents with far less deaths have been named as such. There is no ambiguity here and the page is already trying to stay bizarrely charitable towards Israel. TheXuitts (talk) 13:46, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not extended confirmed. –Novem Linguae (talk) 10:48, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Israeli propaganda is a stretch, but I agree it should be renamed, because a significant amount of people were killed Guadeterre (talk) 23:32, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
well the IDF is already spreading propaganda about "what actually happened" so calling out Israeli propaganda for what it is isn't unfair IMO. 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 23:46, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I mainly said that because we still dont know exactly who did it. I'm not trying to start drama or be political. The main point of my reply was supporting the article name change Guadeterre (talk) 23:49, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We absolutely know who did it-- it was the IDF, who have a long track record of this sort of behaviour in this particular "war" alone. Let's not take the CNN route, act all coy, and pretend that it's still up for debate as to who started shooting these people. 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 23:54, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll look into the situation more, just trying not to form an opinion yet. In the meantime I really dont want to make any drama or get into a fight Guadeterre (talk) 23:57, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's fair. 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 00:01, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
especially when we consider that every time a paramilitary "settler" gets killed in the occupied West Bank, they get their own article unambigiously titled as "murder of" said "settler". It's really not up for debate that this was a massacre, not an "incident". 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 23:45, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support With IDF statements acknowledging shooting at least 10 people on the scene, and multiple reports of dozens of gunshot wounds (with no other shooters alleged), I think we're in massacre territory even if the others killed turned out to have died in panic, from fearful truck drivers etc. Carwil (talk) 23:50, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:ECR. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:57, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I think it's also important to note that even if a substantial number of the people who were killed were killed because the drivers panicked or in a crowd crush, the catalyst is still the IDF opening fire into the crowd. We also have to assume that the IDF is downplaying how many people they shot as well. 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 23:56, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are getting to the point of WP:Bludgeoning Lukt64 (talk) 23:57, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I just thought that it's important to mention in terms of overall culpability. 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 00:01, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thing is, you are replying to every single statement on this post. Lukt64 (talk) 00:02, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Aren't users with <500 edits disallowed to comment on talk pages in this fashion? The user you're replying to has like, ten edits in total. Tdmurlock (talk) 00:05, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, we're just not allowed to physically edit pages related to this issue. As in contribute. 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 00:12, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I thought they weren't but I may be wrong. The Kip 07:30, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

who cares? 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 00:10, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support. A lot of other articles of this war have been correctly named massacres despite having a lot less deaths, so I see now reason why an event with such a high casualty number shouldn't rightfully be renamed to a massacre too, especially since a lot of the international media have reported that Israeli soldiers deliberately committed this action. Nori2001 (talk) 23:53, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per Carwil. CJ-Moki (talk) 00:08, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support, as per Carwil, Nori2001, and Salmoonlight. RodRabelo7 (talk) 00:14, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: changed en-dash to hyphen. RodRabelo7 (talk) 00:17, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support, per Carwil + WP:SNOW, come on, let's close it and move the page. — Mainly 00:26, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Al-Rashid humanitarian aid massacre, as I believe that it is important to mention where it happened in the title. MountainDew20 (talk) 00:33, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. As sources refer to it as a massacre, or they quote that people are calling it a massacre. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 00:37, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Proposed title is more accurate than the almost painfully euphemistic "humanitarian aid incident". CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 04:42, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support - and I am hoping that the current title was only used as there was not enough information in reputable media at the time. The IDF opened fire on the crowd, resulting in “less than ten casualties” according to the IDF, who are known liars, with the rest attributed to the resulting stampede and people killed by fleeing vehicles. If you fire a weapon into a crowd, killing civilians, and then more civilians are killed as a direct result of this action, then you are responsible for their deaths. This was a massacre. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 04:52, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support, and frankly WP:SNOW. There's no justifiable reason to call it an "incident", it's cloaking the reality of it in euphemism --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 05:37, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Additional Comment: the page with the current title was started by a user (@OliveTree39:) that does not meet the extended confirmed user protection level the page was later given due to the Israel-Palestine conflict contentious topic designation, whereas the first move was made by a user that does --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 06:14, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose and I never use adjectives in my !votes but absolutely no one has cited anything that shows this is commonly called a massacre. I searched up the incident and found these results: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]. 2 of those sources don't even say "massacre" once, the other three only attribute it to Hamas, Fatah, and Qatar. Meanwhile, the term incident is used in all sources multiple times, unattributed. No one bothered to look at and use the sources on this. Absolutely no arguments on policy whatsoever. Wikipedia is supposed to function on policy, not on opinions devoid of policy. JM (talk) 06:16, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are you serious? So you need a source calling it "a massacre" to prove that it is?

You don't need a source, 120+ people killed and 750+ more injured IT'S A MASSACRE.

I Support to change the title in to massacre. IDF are known liars when they are the perpetrator of mass murders of a civilians. As another user said above, even if a truck rammed some of the victims it was still the consequence of the IDF opening fire on the crowd. Gianluigi02 (talk) 10:53, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I completely agree with JM's claims. The language used regarding this event in most sources, doesn't justify renaming/moving this article to anything with "massacre" in its title. HilbertSpaceExplorer (talk) 08:49, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Reliable sources state that it is unsure what led to the casualties. The Economist, for example, says that "As with many events in the war between Israel and Hamas, the facts are destined to remain fiercely contested." By using the word massacre, Wikipedia adopts Hamas' version. Eladkarmel (talk) 06:21, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As I've already shown above, the IDF have admitted that their firing into the crowd caused deaths. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 06:28, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Based on the sources I read, The IDF clearly said that the shooting that was carried out was a "warning shot" and was not aimed at the civilians who threatened the forces. Even if we assume that there were casualties from the shooting, it is a small minority of the civilians killed, and certainly it was not a massacre.Eladkarmel (talk) 06:44, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Even if we assume that there were casualties from the shooting, it is a small minority of the civilians killed

Who/what killed the rest of the civilians? Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 06:51, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
According to the IDFs initial investigation, a stampede.Eladkarmel (talk) 07:29, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm all for going with what the RSes say rather than jumping to our own conclusions, but I can't in good faith say that the IDF is a remotely reliable source here. The Kip 07:33, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm in favor of waiting a few more days and getting more data. In order for it not to outcome like the accusations against the IDF for the attack on Al Ahali hospital, It turned out that according to all the evidence, it was not an IDF attack, Despite the accusations from Hamas.Eladkarmel (talk) 07:40, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not extended confirmed. –Novem Linguae (talk) 10:48, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Support. By all reasonable definitions, this was a massacre. If we can classify it as a massacre in the info box, we should be doing so in the title. Using a neutral tone when one shouldn’t be used makes the site more misleading. Describing this event as an “incident” would be like using the term “incident” instead of “attack” for the January 6 page. EvanSheppard (talk) 07:29, 1 March 2024 (UTC) Non-ECP !vote JM (talk) 08:24, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
According to the rules, you are not allowed to comment here. Hazooyi (talk) 07:50, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
:Strongly Support - From what we have seen, they were shot at for trying to get food. The accused have not provided proof of the civillans being a "threat" to them 94.204.139.36 (talk) 06:29, 1 March 2024 (UTC) Vote struck per CTOP/ECP restrictions listed above. The Kip 07:16, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose both proposed and current titles:
On one hand, "massacre" isn't being extensively utilized by RSes, as detailed above. We don't want to engage in OR here; if conclusive/widely-endorsed evidence emerges that the IDF indiscriminately fired into the crowd emerges and is taken up by RSes, I'll support the title, but RSes seem to be taking a cautious tone regarding circumstances at the moment (perhaps to avoid the issues surrounding the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion's initial reporting).
On the other, I sympathize with commenters that feel "incident" is far too euphemistic for an event in which over 100 people died violently, which definitively happened regardless of whether it was Israeli soldiers, a stampede, or panicked truck drivers.
The question is what do we switch to? "Disaster," perhaps? The Kip 07:16, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I'd urge editors to think deeply about the ways language has been used during this particular conflict. Analyses by openDemocracy and The Intercept have suggested that the word "massacre" is almost never used to describe mass casualty events of Palestinians by organizations like NYT, WaPo, BBC, and LA Times [6] [7]. WP:5P5 says sometimes improving Wikipedia requires making exceptions, and it just seems to me that the shooting and death of starving people seeking food does warrant stronger language than "incident", even if that's what the above-mentioned organizations are calling it. CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 07:46, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose jumping to conclusions about the exact nature of this incident, hours after it happened, before any inquiry was done, and giving it the title "massacre" is clearly not done out of search for truth. Oyoyoy (talk) 07:24, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Wikipedia is "not news" and this claim about a massacre is pure speculation at this point. I would say calling it "stampede" makes more sense. Hazooyi (talk) 07:38, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
At best, that's swinging to the other side, because there is reporting by credible sources that there was a mass shooting by the IDF, not just a stampede --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 08:10, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per JM. The incident has not yet been investigated and the assertion regarding a massacre is currently a mere speculation. Indeed, no title of some RS sources I looked at, uses the word massacre to describe the incident:
- Guardian - 112 dead in chaotic scenes as Israeli troops open fire near aid trucks
- CNN - Many victims at Gaza aid site were rammed by trucks in chaos after Israeli fire, local journalist says
- NYT - What We Know About the Deaths Near the Gaza Aid Convoy
- BBC - Israel-Gaza war: More than 100 reported killed in crowd near Gaza aid convoy
So, a very sad incident, but not a massacre. GidiD (talk) 09:28, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support - There are sources that call this a massacre, and "incident" is too vague. Some users have pointed out that it isn't confirmed who the perpetrators of this were, but literally even the IDF themselves now confirmed they did this because the aid seekers were, according to them, approaching them in a way that "threatened" them. There are also many reliable sources that claim this was done by IDF. Also, since we use titles like Be'eri massacre, this is in a very similar nature and should be described the same. User3749 (talk) 09:48, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Reading that article (reader discretion advised), I do not see in the slightest that such hell on earth as that could possibly be considered "very similar in nature" to this event at all. I do not see in the slightest that any of the horrific attacks of October 7 like that could be at all considered "very similar in nature" to this event. JM (talk) 09:58, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How is that not very similar in nature? They were both targeting civilians, and I can't see how October 7 is not related to this event. Can you please elaborate? User3749 (talk) 10:17, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 09:12, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 09:12, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Military history has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 09:12, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Move. Support the move, but can't agree with the "Massacre" title. Neither calling just an "incident" nor showcasing these as a "massacre" is appropriate imho. But the "incident" should indeed be changed. Imperial ^[AFCND] 09:50, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The media is starting to call this the Flour Massacre. [8]. Only 7200 results on Google Search so far, but this title may see increasing usage in the next day or two. –Novem Linguae (talk) 10:29, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. There's no reason to call it an "incident". 112 unarmed civilians were killed, it is a full-blown massacre.Sinucep (talk) 11:32, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Calling this an incident would be the same as causing one of the Hamas-led massacres as an incident because Hamas may deny or belittle the impact of the event. Even the Israelis themselves admitted to shooting dead at least 10 people.ThePaganUK (talk) 13:06, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment This article was created by a non EC editor which might explain the milquetoast title. Here's the New Arab headlining it as a massacre and citing "Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor confirm that Israeli army gunfire was responsible for most deaths in a massacre of Palestinian civilians waiting for humanitarian aid in western Gaza on Thursday". Biased perhaps, but still.Selfstudier (talk) 13:39, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Carwil. Skitash (talk) 14:03, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Carwil + we're not arbiters here, we follow what the sources say. Most of them either use the word "massacre" or describe what is one. "Incident" is an euphemism. Rkieferbaum (talk) 14:28, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Calling this an "incident" is too much of a WP:EUPHEMISM, especially considering it's not currently the most common way of describing this (as far as I can tell). XTheBedrockX (talk) 14:52, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Even the New York Times, generally totally indifferent to Palestinian suffering, and willing to carry water for Israel no matter the cost to the publication's reputation, has begun to refer to the events as a "disaster". Using "incident" places Wikipedia behind reality and at least 24 hours out of sync with the credible sources. It's urgent we close this discussion and make a change, the current title is unacceptable. — Mainly 14:56, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Move, as "incident" is a disprespectful euphemism, but "Massacre" might not be entirely correct. How about a compromise: Al-Rashid massacre and crowd crush? It seems clear that some people died from IDF gunfire (massacre), whereas others might have died from crowd crush in the chaos. If there is no consensus to include "massacre" in the title, then I would at least support to replace "incident" by "crowd crush" or "disaster" (although I don't think it would be enough). --Gerrit ^CUTEDH 15:05, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

This discussion of an article page move can easily be contested. Discussions typically last a week and this one didn't even last 2 hours! And the nominator closed the discussion with their preferred article title which is a clear conflict of interest, that act should have been left to an uninvolved editor or admin. I don't think this discussion and closure can be argued to be authoritative and will likely be challenged. Please do things properly in the future, Lukt64, and don't try to rush these processes. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:09, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Obvious misapplication of WP:SNOW, here. Tdmurlock (talk) 03:42, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I have reverted Lukt64's early closure which is made improperly as the nominator. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 04:38, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Fails even the first snowball test. Someone opposed, that's the opposite of unanimous. And WP:SNOW also warns of early pile-ons. Yet the nominator himself closed it less than 2 hours after he opened it. Good revert. JM (talk) 06:42, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Should the IDF footage be in the article? And if so, what should it be captioned?

·I'm in favor of "IDF footage of incident" personally. Tdmurlock (talk) 10:53, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. Go ahead and add it. Appears to be freely licensed. Caption can be tweaked by normal editing. –Novem Linguae (talk) 11:07, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done. With the caption "Aerial footage released by the IDF". –Novem Linguae (talk) 11:31, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The IDF is an unreliable source imo. They are known to edit video to suit, when not telling porkies, clear attribution needed for anything from there. Selfstudier (talk) 13:53, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 102: / Line 102: @@
 *'''Support'''. Calling this an "incident" is too much of a [[WP:EUPHEMISM]], especially considering it's not currently the most common way of describing this (as far as I can tell). [[User:XTheBedrockX|XTheBedrockX]] ([[User talk:XTheBedrockX|talk]]) 14:52, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
 *'''Comment''' Even the ''New York Times'', generally totally indifferent to Palestinian suffering, and willing to carry water for Israel no matter the cost to the publication's reputation, has begun to refer to the events as a "disaster". Using "incident" places Wikipedia behind reality and at least 24 hours out of sync with the credible sources. It's '''urgent''' we close this discussion and make a change, the current title is unacceptable. — [[User:MainlyTwelve|Mainly]] 14:56, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
+*'''Move''', as "incident" is a disprespectful euphemism, but "Massacre" might not be entirely correct.  How about a compromise: '''Al-Rashid massacre and crowd crush'''?  It seems clear that some people died from IDF gunfire (massacre), whereas others might have died from [[crowd crush]] in the chaos.  If there is no consensus to include "massacre" in the title, then I would ''at least'' support to replace "incident" by "crowd crush" or "disaster" (although I don't think it would be enough). --[[User:Gerrit|Gerrit]] <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Gerrit|C]][[User:Gerrit|U]][[User_talk:Gerrit|T]][[Special:Emailuser/Gerrit|E]][[Special:Whatlinkshere/User:Gerrit|D]][http://www.topjaklont.org/ H]</sup> 15:05, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
 ==Comment==