Talk:2024 United Kingdom general election: Difference between revisions
Line 789: | Line 789: | ||
:::* My !vote would be for the 3x3 option. I think we have to include Reform, due to the outsize effect they had and that their vote share exceeded the Lib Dems. Also think Greens had a significant role to play as well, and we don't lose that much by just giving all the info. — [[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 21:15, 5 July 2024 (UTC) |
:::* My !vote would be for the 3x3 option. I think we have to include Reform, due to the outsize effect they had and that their vote share exceeded the Lib Dems. Also think Greens had a significant role to play as well, and we don't lose that much by just giving all the info. — [[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 21:15, 5 July 2024 (UTC) |
||
:::*:There's currently a bit of an edit war over whether the fourth to sixth places are to be included. Has a decision been made? [[Special:Contributions/2601:249:9301:D570:F833:C3AF:F37D:5715|2601:249:9301:D570:F833:C3AF:F37D:5715]] ([[User talk:2601:249:9301:D570:F833:C3AF:F37D:5715|talk]]) 03:36, 7 July 2024 (UTC) |
:::*:There's currently a bit of an edit war over whether the fourth to sixth places are to be included. Has a decision been made? [[Special:Contributions/2601:249:9301:D570:F833:C3AF:F37D:5715|2601:249:9301:D570:F833:C3AF:F37D:5715]] ([[User talk:2601:249:9301:D570:F833:C3AF:F37D:5715|talk]]) 03:36, 7 July 2024 (UTC) |
||
::::One of my main concerns is that, effectively, if a 2x3 infobox is added in order to accomodate Reform (which it could, since it's sixth in seat count), there is going to be people calling for a 3x3 infobox in order to accomodate the Greens, which is basically out of consistency with all previous elections (not even 2017, which was a hung parliament dependant on these minor parties) and unmanageable. Plus there are people somehow calling for the Independents to be shown in sixth place, which is ridiculous (they are not a single unitary force). That is why, as of currently, 1x3 is the less conflictive infobox, as we can all agree that these three should be shown in that order (but there is not any agreement on the other ones). [[User:Impru20|'''<span style="color:#E65B00;">Impru</span><span style="color:#0018A8;">20</span>''']]<sup>[[User talk:Impru20|talk]]</sup> 09:15, 7 July 2024 (UTC) |
|||
== Seat change - use notional numbers or previous election? == |
== Seat change - use notional numbers or previous election? == |
Revision as of 09:15, 7 July 2024
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the 2024 United Kingdom general election article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 |
![]() | This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 29 October 2019. The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | A news item involving 2024 United Kingdom general election was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 5 July 2024. | ![]() |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | On 10 April 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to 2024 United Kingdom general election. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
![]() | Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at pageviews.wmcloud.org |
![]() | This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report. The week in which this happened:
|
2024 election series template (below infobox)
Seeking opinion on this before I do anything too destructive - do we feel this is strictly necessary? Most of the links in the template are in the infobox directly above it already and those that aren't are either elsewhere in the article or can quite reasonably added to a more appropriate spot, so the template feels a bit redundant. Would appreciate any thoughts you may have.
CipherRephic (talk) 19:48, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- @CipherRephicI 100% agree. The current info box is
- - redundant
- - inconsistent with previous articles
- - generally just less sightly than the regular one.
- So I think we should switch to Template:Infobox election DimensionalFusion (talk) 21:54, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Switching infobox would be more concise and look far less clunky, completely agree. Ebm2002 (talk) 22:07, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Agree with this change and the rationale presented here. I can understand having TILE much in advance of an election, but it's standard that once the election is announced (and to my knowledge, even before then) we switch to TIE. There's no good reason why we shouldn't have TIE at this point. — Czello (music) 08:06, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- So the rationale behind the current style is:
- "There is a consensus to use this infobox style, not Template:Infobox election. This is because the latter cannot include all the parties, and therefore if we included it before the results of the election are known, we would have to guess which parties will make a significant impact, against what WP:CRYSTAL says. So do NOT change the infobox without consulting the talk page to change the consensus."
- I am not inclined to agree with this argument. The use of Template:Infobox election format is on the basis of the last election results (and typically how many seats are needed for a majority), not, as is argued here, what we think will or is likely to happen in the upcoming election. Mapperman03 (talk) 01:45, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Bondegezou Hi, you reverted the infobox change despite there being a consensus here. Why? DimensionalFusion (talk) 09:02, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- We have a longstanding consensus to use TILE before the election. We did this before previous general elections. We should not change from that until a new consensus has been demonstrated. You don't get to make the change you want and then tell people to wait for a consensus: we stick with the long-standing arrangement until the matter is settled. Bondegezou (talk) 09:06, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- To clarify, to demonstrate you have consensus for a major change to the article, you need more than a few comments in a Talk section not even on the topic, and a discussion that has had more than 12 hours to take place. An RfC might be necessary. Bondegezou (talk) 09:15, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- Czello, are you being serious with this? You are an experienced editor and you should know you need more evidence of consensus than the above. Do not start an WP:EDITWAR. Bondegezou (talk) 09:33, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- Since the topic of this dicussion has diverted to the infobox, I believe I need to explain the reason why I believe TILE is better than TIE until the results of the election are in, since I wrote the note Mapperman03 quoted. There was a discussion now at Talk:2024 United Kingdom general election/Archive 1#Infobox (2) where I explained my rationale in more detail than that note, and I note DimensionalFusion and Bondegezou took part in that discussion. I criticised DimensionalFusion's arguments as unsubstantiated then and I do again now. They have said nothing in this dicussion that they didn't say in that discussion, and so I reiterate my criticisms: "less sightly" is a subjective opinion that falls foul of WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT, and comparing to precedence goes against WP:OTHERCONTENT and is an example of the false equivalence fallacy, as past and future elections are not comparable. I take it when they say "redundant" they are referring to TILE including more parties, but that is a necessity to avoid failing WP:CRYSTAL.
- On the subject of WP:CRYSTAL, the reason why I believe all the parties with MPs in the House of Commons now/at dissolution (and therefore my reason for using TILE) need to be included is that we don't know the results of the election, and therefore which parties will have a significant number of MPs after the next election. This means to avoid creating an infobox that implies we are presuming only some parties (probably Con, Lab, SNP and LD) will get a significant number of seats in an election we don't know the results of, we have to use TILE, as that is able to list all the parties in a reasonably small amount of space. It's important the infobox is relatively small, as per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE's statement
The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance
. TIE cannot list all the parties necessary to include (either for technical reasons or because otherwise the infobox would be huge), so we should use TILE. This will stay the case until at least the outcome of the election is obvious (when most seats have declared their results). So I disagree with Czello that now or at dissolution is the time to change the infobox, that time will be at the earliest around 03:00, 5 July 2024 (UTC) (that's 4am in the UK) when we know which parties have a significant number of seats for sure. Then TIE will likely be the best infobox. --TedEdwards 14:59, 23 May 2024 (UTC)- @TedEdwards It's interesting you should bring up MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE's statement "The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance". TILE does not meet this. Is knowing all 15 parties and their leaders and their candidates really needed at a glance? Does "Speaker" need to be included in the infobox? "Speaker" is obviously not going to win a landslide of seats, which is the same rationale applied to the rest of the parties- for example, the DUP, SF, PC, Alliance, and SDLP all cannot win huge majorities because they only run in their own regions.
- Counter to this, it is much more important for the reader to know what the main parties' standings are. Labour and Conservative are being put on the same list as WPGB. Is knowing how many seats Speaker currently has really key information, vital to the election? I don't think so. DimensionalFusion (talk) 16:39, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- Czello, are you being serious with this? You are an experienced editor and you should know you need more evidence of consensus than the above. Do not start an WP:EDITWAR. Bondegezou (talk) 09:33, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- To return to what this section actually began talking about, I would support dropping the election series template. It's unnecessary clutter. Bondegezou (talk) 09:13, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- @CipherRephic: Since this discussion immediately went off-topic because the editor who replied to you first only bothered to read what they wanted to see and not what you actually said, do you think it would be worth splitting this discussion into two? Or renaming this discussion to refer to the infobox, and start a fresh discussion about Template:2024 United Kingdom general election series somewhere else? --TedEdwards 15:09, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- @TedEdwards I'd favour starting a new section with a less ambiguous header but as the significantly less experienced editor I feel I ought to defer to you on matters of procedure such as this - what would you suggest? CipherRephic (talk) 15:53, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- @CipherRephic: Since RealTaxiDriver started a separate discussion on the infobox at #Infobox, I suggest further comments about the infobox go there. As for this header being ambiguous, the thing is I don't think it is, and I can't see what anyone could change it to. You were crystal clear with what you wanted to dicuss, but DimensionalFusion, who only bothered to look at the word "infobox", drove the topic off-piste so she could talk about what she wanted. So it's not your fault this happened.
- To summarise to all editors: This discussion is on including Template:2024 United Kingdom general election series in the article, not on the infobox (bolding for emphasis). Further comments on the infobox should go under #Infobox--TedEdwards 22:04, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- Apologies, I misread "2024 election series template (below infobox)" as "2024 election series template (infobox)" DimensionalFusion (talk) 08:11, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- @TedEdwards I'd favour starting a new section with a less ambiguous header but as the significantly less experienced editor I feel I ought to defer to you on matters of procedure such as this - what would you suggest? CipherRephic (talk) 15:53, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- @CipherRephic: Since this discussion immediately went off-topic because the editor who replied to you first only bothered to read what they wanted to see and not what you actually said, do you think it would be worth splitting this discussion into two? Or renaming this discussion to refer to the infobox, and start a fresh discussion about Template:2024 United Kingdom general election series somewhere else? --TedEdwards 15:09, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
I am going to WP:BOLDly remove the series template using CipherRephic's rationale. If contested the reverting editor can discuss it here. --TedEdwards 17:42, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
Infobox
Lets settle this
What should be the infobox:
A - Classic election infobox as seen in 2019
B - Current infobox
RealTaxiDriver (talk) 17:55, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- B, until the result is declared. For the reasons outlined further up this page, several times.
- I genuinely can’t believe we’re still having this conversation. OGBC1992 (talk) 19:35, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- There are other options: (C) No infobox, (D) Party-free infobox (showing a map or other details, but not parties).
- The classic election (TIE) infobox is used now for the 2019 general election, but (mostly) wasn't used for that article before the vote. There has been considerable discussion of what infobox to use before an election over the years, and the most stable consensus has been to use the current (TILE) infobox. However, I note (D) was also used at times during the 2019 campaign.
- MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE says
wherever possible, present information in short form, and exclude any unnecessary content
. Infoboxes should be smaller, not bigger. That's why I favour the TILE format over the bloated TIE format. We also have to avoid WP:CRYSTALBALL predictions and take a WP:NPOV. A TIE format has to exclude multiple parties, which introduces bias, and ends up making a guess about the results. So, I favour (B), but would be fine with (C) or (D). Bondegezou (talk) 20:53, 23 May 2024 (UTC)- Yes. Wherever possible, present information in short form, and exclude any unnecessary content. I believe the numeruous small parties mandated within TILE is unnecessary content. That's why I favour the TIE format over the bloated TIE format. DimensionalFusion (talk) 14:00, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- @RealTaxiDriver B (TILE) seems most appropriate for now - using A (TIE) would necessitate speculating as to whether certain parties (e.g. the greens, reform, plaid) would gain sufficient foothold to be considered major, contravening WP:CRYSTALBALL. I'd concede the TIE box looks nicer, but (especially this early in the campaign) that shouldn't be the primary goal. CipherRephic (talk) 22:18, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- First of all I need to mention that a discussion on this ended up starting in a discussion on a different topic at #2024 election series template (below infobox) because someone only got as far as reading the word "infobox" before replying. I have attempted now to redirect all discussion on the infobox in that section to here.
- To reiterate my view, it is to support B, and I quote myself here to explain why:
Since the topic of this dicussion has diverted to the infobox, I believe I need to explain the reason why I believe TILE is better than TIE until the results of the election are in, since I wrote the note Mapperman03 quoted. There was a discussion now at Talk:2024 United Kingdom general election/Archive 1#Infobox (2) where I explained my rationale in more detail than that note, and I note DimensionalFusion and Bondegezou took part in that discussion. I criticised DimensionalFusion's arguments as unsubstantiated then and I do again now. They have said nothing in this dicussion that they didn't say in that discussion, and so I reiterate my criticisms: "less sightly" is a subjective opinion that falls foul of WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT, and comparing to precedence goes against WP:OTHERCONTENT and is an example of the false equivalence fallacy, as past and future elections are not comparable. I take it when they say "redundant" they are referring to TILE including more parties, but that is a necessity to avoid failing WP:CRYSTAL.
On the subject of WP:CRYSTAL, the reason why I believe all the parties with MPs in the House of Commons now/at dissolution (and therefore my reason for using TILE) need to be included is that we don't know the results of the election, and therefore which parties will have a significant number of MPs after the next election. This means to avoid creating an infobox that implies we are presuming only some parties (probably Con, Lab, SNP and LD) will get a significant number of seats in an election we don't know the results of, we have to use TILE, as that is able to list all the parties in a reasonably small amount of space. It's important the infobox is relatively small, as per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE's statement "The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance." TIE cannot list all the parties necessary to include (either for technical reasons or because otherwise the infobox would be huge), so we should use TILE. This will stay the case until at least the outcome of the election is obvious (when most seats have declared their results). So I disagree with Czello that now or at dissolution is the time to change the infobox, that time will be at the earliest around 03:00, 5 July 2024 (UTC) (that's 4am in the UK) when we know which parties have a significant number of seats for sure. Then TIE will likely be the best infobox. - To reply to something written by DimensionalFusion in response to the above comment, the choice is TIE with all parties or TILE with all parties, as excluding parties will fall foul of WP:Crystal (also pointed out by Bondegezou above). We can't even exclude the Northern Irish parties/Plaid Cymru because the DUP is included in the infobox at 2017 United Kingdom general election because they had a major impact on politics after that election (gave Tories enough seats for a confidence and supply agreement) (Sinn Fein is also included, but that's to avoid white space I think) so it's entirely possible these parties that don't stand in England will still have a significant impact after the election. So while including 15 parties might seem bloated, it's necessary as we can't exclude any of them as that would imply e.g. the Greens, Reform, WPGB or the NI parties definitely won't win a significant number of seats and aren't worth anyone's attention. All we can do is state what the composition of the house at the last election or now (or just prior to dissolution when that happens), as that's the only way to make an infobox with parties that doesn't imply that we're making predictions. TIE with all parties is impossible, so TILE with all parties is the only option if we want an infobox with any parties at all. --TedEdwards 22:38, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, I strongly favour option B, for essentially the reasons laid out above. GenevieveDEon (talk) 08:40, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- I strongly favour option A above. DimensionalFusion (talk) 10:31, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- B, preferably, or D. TILE lets us include all the parties and not entirely seconcary details like leader's seats, dates of leadership elections, and so on, for a handful of parties, which almost never deserve to be in the infobox. Ralbegen (talk) 18:28, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- This seems to have stalled, so:
- WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE says that an infobox's purpose is:
to summarize—and not supplant—key facts that appear in the article.
- Both TIE and TILE accomplish this.
The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance.
- Arguably, both TIE and TILE achieve this, but in different ways. TIE gives important context about leaders and important parties, which excludes unecessary parties that won't win any more than a few seats. In my opinion, unless there are more than 6 major parties, such as in Belgium, then TIE should be used. This article is about the 2024 GE, and it's very clear from polling and other such indicators who should be included: Conservatives, Labour, Lib Dems, SNP. These are who is going into the election, so this provides important context to the viewer about the election. When the results come in, the infobox can be re-formulated.
- I can already hear the "what about WP:CRYSTALBALL"s coming in, so yes. This is, techically, speculation. However, WP:CRYSTALBALL says
Wikipedia is not a collection of unverifiable speculation, rumors, or presumptions.
TIE is not this! TIE is using the current standings of the parties to give context about the state of the election before it happens. In the run up to an election, should an election article not be focused on what the states of the parties are before the election happens? - WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE continues:
Of necessity, some infoboxes contain more than just a few fields; however, present information in short form wherever possible, and exclude any unnecessary content.
- I'd argue that unnecessary content is including multiple parties that are not particularly relevant to the national political scene. These can be, and are, incorporated in the more detailled later parts of the article. I'd argue that the Alliance Party doesn't really need to be incorporated into the infobox, which is for short form information.
There will be exceptions where a piece of key specialised information may be placed in the infobox, but is difficult to integrate into the body text.
- TIE does meet this! I've heard several arguments about how TIE is "cluttered" and the example everybody uses is leader's seat. However Leader's seat is
- - difficult to integrate into the body text, and
- - gives important context about the party (e.g. a hypothetical party with a leader's seat in London provides context about the kind of party and policies they may offer very quickly)
- DimensionalFusion (talk) 16:02, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- You can flog the dead horse as much as you like, but it's not getting up.
- To again rebut your arguments, not including parties that didn't get a significant number of seats is breaching WP:CRYSTALBALL, because since the infobox is about this election, what you're saying by not including smaller parties that were in the HoC is "ignore them, they'll be irrelevant in the aftermath", when you have no evidence that is the case. You say the APNI doesn't need to be in the infobox, but they could get some more seats, so much that they will form a Confidence and Supply argreement with the next governing party, a bit like the DUP in 2017, and so it may be worth putting them in the infobox after the election. Of course what I just said is speculation, but saying they won't be relevant to the national political scene after the election is equally speculative. You and I don't know the outcome of the election, and therefore which parties should be or shouldn't be in the infobox, and therefore we have to include a non-objective selection of parties e.g. ones with seats at the end of the last parliament, so the infobox doesn't suggest which parties should or shouldn't be ignored. And polling is predicting, so when talking about it, we say that is predicting, and we do not base anything else in any article on this election (e.g. order of parties in a list) on predictions made in opinion polls. Including only parties projected to get a significant number of seats in opinion polls in the infobox, which you seem to suggest when you say
it's very clear from polling and other such indicators who should be included
, is definitely in breach of WP:CRYSTALBALL. - As for quoting
There will be exceptions where a piece of key specialised information may be placed in the infobox, but is difficult to integrate into the body text
, that is, by no stretch of the imagination, a requirement to put such information in the infobox. It is always ideal to include information in the infobox elsewhere in the article, it's not always possible. And you say the leaders' seats give important context. So would you like to tell everyone how knowing Keir Starmer and Ed Davey having seats in London allows people to work outthe kind of party and policies they offer
, and what those policies you can work out are? - You said
When the results come in, the infobox can be re-formulated
and, yes, that will of course happen. On 5 July the infobox will probably change because they we'll know who the major players the new parliament are, and TIE will almost certainly be the best infobox to display that information. But it is very clear that your support for TIE is emotional, not logical. --TedEdwards 22:21, 15 June 2024 (UTC)- @TedEdwards
- Hi! “But it is very clear that your support for TIE is emotional, not logical.”
- Do you have a source for this? Or are you breaching WP:CRYSTALBALL by speculating?
- “So would you like to tell everyone how knowing Keir Starmer and Ed Davey having seats in London allows people to work out the kind of party and policies they offer, and what those policies you can work out are?”
- Absolutely. Parties that have their leaders in rural seats suggest conservative platforms, whereas in urban seats this suggests Centerist to Left wing platforms. That’s common sense.
- “saying by not including smaller parties that were in the HoC is "ignore them, they'll be irrelevant in the aftermath"”
- You’re putting words in my mouth there. I’m not saying that they won’t be relevant in the aftermath of the election. I’m saying that, in the run up to an election, knowing who the major players are going in gives better context to the reader than a HTML table. DimensionalFusion (talk) 06:22, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- Just dropping in my strong support for Option A (2019 format) as this has extremely useful information and reader-friendly, I see no reason personally to remove it. -Internet is Freedom (talk) 16:45, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- I second supporting option A (2019 format, unless someone sneakily tries to change it), or the TIE format. There frankly, was no real issue (except maybe aesthetics, for a minority) for using TIE in previous elections - it’s not like Indonesia, or Israel, or Netherlands where there are nearly a dozen parties and the bugs ones can barely get above 25%.
- There are only a handful number of pivotal parties, and it’s fine to have TIE just include them, which there were no issues before then. Even with TILE, sometimes someone will have to judge where the cutoff is, or else you end up with 60+ rows for a page when previously 6 parties was considered adequate (2022 Philippines legislative elections).
- I would also like to suggest that TILE is, essentially just a mini copy of the results table anyway, and so generally less valuable (and closer to supplanting results table) than using TIE, where information like leaders seat (quite notable for UK, where there are no list MPs of any sort) and images (can’t “roll over” links on mobile) are in an easy place rather than buried around the article or just not included
- With this, I think whatever benefits TILE may have over TIE, used almost since day dot, are not particularly applicable to here, and the supposed consensus around using TILE here relatively recent and flimsy, having come through with few eyes watching iamthinking2202 (please ping on reply if you would be so kind) 05:52, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
- The claim that this is a
relatively recent
decision is wrong. We’ve had the same discussion before multiple general elections and are following the same practice agreed then. We’ve discussed the infobox for this particular article now three or four times already, - MOS:INFOBOX is clear that an infobox should, with very limited exceptions, only include information that is also in the article, so an infobox is always a copy of article content.
- If people want the article to cover leaders’ seats and to have their photos, they can be added to the article. Bondegezou (talk) 06:19, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
- Bondegezou, arguably under MOS:INFOBOXEXCEPTIONS, this is information that is hard to integrate into the body text of the article in a coherent way. Putting a one liner about - eg Boris Johnson representing Uxbridge in 2019, would get buried under the other text, and their face too, doesn’t clearly fit under the other sections (eg Background) - when it can just go in the infobox - rather than simply culling it.
- And unless if we live in a radio only world, or a world where news sites steadfastly avoid photographing politicians, images are linked to, and useful representations of parties and their leaders. The infobox MOS specifically has a whole section on styling images too, rather than a proscriptive ban on them, along with pushing for consistency as per MOS:INFOBOXSTYLE
- I am hunting through Talk:2024 United Kingdom general election/Archive 1#Infobox (2), but I am not finding the agreement. I have found that you have discussed TILE before, and have said that it had been agreed on earlier, but I’m not sure where the consensus is for this major change.
- It hasn’t been agreed for 2019. Nor 2017. Nor 2015 United Kingdom general elections. Or to clarify, there was no discussion on those talk pages of even moving to TILE, so I don’t get how this TILE discussion has been had multiple general elections?
- At this point, this use of TILE is trying to foist a different aesthetic preference (unless if people using TILE somehow believe TILE looks worse?) onto the UK General Election pages, and causing inconsistency with the infoboxes used for past elections. iamthinking2202 (please ping on reply if you would be so kind) 07:04, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
- Very well stated DimensionalFusion (talk) 07:57, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
- and come to think about it, if someone did create a section for party leaders with photographs, people against TIE leader photos could then say photos are a needless duplication of article content...
- As for "consensus", so far what I have found is
- - Discussion that TILE can be kept for "next UK general election", and TIE once election is called Talk:2024 United Kingdom general election/Archive 1#Switch to standard election template
- - Vigorous discussion, once again between similar users in this thread, but no consensus, and trying to frame existing TIE as WP:I don't like it
- Talk:2024 United Kingdom general election/Archive 1#Infobox (2)
- I've found discussion, but no consensus. iamthinking2202 (please ping on reply if you would be so kind) 03:18, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- Awesome stuff DimensionalFusion (talk) 12:29, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Ralbegen Why'd you revert the election infobox DimensionalFusion (talk) 15:07, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- It's been discussed to death with more editors supporting and giving reasons for TILE. As an indication of the level of consensus, there is a widely-participated-in discussion on this page about how the infobox will change to TIE after the election. I can see no indication that that view among editors has changed. Ralbegen (talk) 15:23, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- I can see no indication that there was a single "view" amongst editors in the first place, therefore how could it have "changed"? DimensionalFusion (talk) 15:48, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- It's been discussed to death with more editors supporting and giving reasons for TILE. As an indication of the level of consensus, there is a widely-participated-in discussion on this page about how the infobox will change to TIE after the election. I can see no indication that that view among editors has changed. Ralbegen (talk) 15:23, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- Very well stated DimensionalFusion (talk) 07:57, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
- The claim that this is a
- B, current infobox as it is more inclusive unlike the classic classist system. Maurnxiao (talk) 15:53, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Maurnxiao How is the current infobox "classist"?? DimensionalFusion (talk) 22:57, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- You mean the one with the pictures of the party leaders? It's basically the Rupert Murdoch & ITV News selected candidates at that point. We can see this with the hostility shown towards including Galloway in an infobox with party leaders' pictures, whereas the current system includes the Workers Party, Plaid Cymru, the Northern Irish parties etc Maurnxiao (talk) 23:47, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- Seriously, @Maurnxiao are you some sort of appologist for Galloway'sparty? The 6 shown are the main contenders and that's why they were selected for the ITN debate. — Iadmc♫talk 01:16, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Apologist? What do I need to apologize for, or deflect from, or protect? Obviously I feel a desire to defend my integrity in light of your suggestion that I am an "apologist", but this is a Wikipedia talk page where we discuss how aspects of an article should look like. We don't discuss apologetics or the political views of someone who happens to believe a political party is much more noteworthy than it is given credit for. Maurnxiao (talk) 01:37, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Then find the sources to show that they are significantly covered. As a side, the NI parties are not covered as they are exclusively in NI and and won't affect the outcome nationally much at all (like Galloway, indeed). — Iadmc♫talk 01:40, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- We already had that discussion in the Workers Party topic, which unsurprisingly degenerated into personal and political attacks against Galloway. The DUP had a deal with the Conservatives in 2017, by the way, and the SNP is also only active in Scotland. At what point do only local parties become notable enough to merit an inclusion, such as the SNP? Maurnxiao (talk) 01:45, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Maurnxiao
- > The DUP had a deal with the Conservatives in 2017
- Yes, that is why they're included in the 2017 infobox.
- > and the SNP is also only active in Scotland
- They're also the third largest party.
- > At what point do only local parties become notable enough to merit an inclusion, such as the SNP?
- When they are notable enough to do so. It's a mix of polling, MP numbers, and coverage. DimensionalFusion (talk) 08:03, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- When there is any indication that the Workers' Party is likely to be the third biggest in parliament, you can be assured that they will be included. Similarly if they are expected to win, or have an appreciable effect on the outcome of a considerable number of seats, if they are polling significantly at a national or regional level, or otherwise become a truly significant player in an election.
- Right now, I see three possibilities:
- 1) you wish to militate to have Wikipedia included regardless of any objective inclusion criteria, in which case you are trying to break its NPOV rule;
- 2) you do not trust the processes by which consensus is built at Wikipedia, in which case I politely suggest that it is not the place for you;
- 3) you are simply a troll who is enjoying being disruptive here.
- You have made your points, I am sure that all of us active in building this article are now alert to the arguments for the inclusion of the Workers' Party here and are capable of discerning, collectively, a justification for greater reference to the group than they already have. Thank you for that, and goodbye. I shall, however, initiate steps towards a topic ban if you persist when it is clear that you do not have consensus. Kevin McE (talk) 08:15, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- We already had that discussion in the Workers Party topic, which unsurprisingly degenerated into personal and political attacks against Galloway. The DUP had a deal with the Conservatives in 2017, by the way, and the SNP is also only active in Scotland. At what point do only local parties become notable enough to merit an inclusion, such as the SNP? Maurnxiao (talk) 01:45, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- For the sake of clarity - an apologist is not someone who is or should be apologising. Rather, it means a person who explains or defends a belief - particularly where the belief is unpopular or controversial. Gaius Cornelius (talk) 08:47, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Then find the sources to show that they are significantly covered. As a side, the NI parties are not covered as they are exclusively in NI and and won't affect the outcome nationally much at all (like Galloway, indeed). — Iadmc♫talk 01:40, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Apologist? What do I need to apologize for, or deflect from, or protect? Obviously I feel a desire to defend my integrity in light of your suggestion that I am an "apologist", but this is a Wikipedia talk page where we discuss how aspects of an article should look like. We don't discuss apologetics or the political views of someone who happens to believe a political party is much more noteworthy than it is given credit for. Maurnxiao (talk) 01:37, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Seriously, @Maurnxiao are you some sort of appologist for Galloway'sparty? The 6 shown are the main contenders and that's why they were selected for the ITN debate. — Iadmc♫talk 01:16, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- You mean the one with the pictures of the party leaders? It's basically the Rupert Murdoch & ITV News selected candidates at that point. We can see this with the hostility shown towards including Galloway in an infobox with party leaders' pictures, whereas the current system includes the Workers Party, Plaid Cymru, the Northern Irish parties etc Maurnxiao (talk) 23:47, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Maurnxiao How is the current infobox "classist"?? DimensionalFusion (talk) 22:57, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
Compromise proposal for Debates and Interviews sub-sections
Based on all of the recent discussions, as well as past precedent, I propose the following compromise proposal for the Debates and Interviews sub-sections:
- In the Debates table, include the venue (eg, dock10, University of York, etc), but in the same column as the town/city. This corresponds exactly to what was done in the 2019 UK general election article.
- In the Debates table, include the start time of the debate in an additional column (called simply "Time"), but not the end time. This maintains a record of the time of day of these events, without capturing the extra detail of how long each debate lasted.
- Keep the Debates sub-section called "Debates", for conciseness, but accept that it includes some high-profile town hall-style events (such as the Sky News leaders' event and Question Time).
- Keep the Interviews sub-section, but with prose only. Remove the Interviews table.
Comments invited. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 11:55, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- Firstly, can we stop creating new sections interpolated further up the page, please? It's really hard to keep track of.
- Secondly, I think you (Kennethmac2000) are under a misapprehension about 'compromise' and 'consensus'. You don't own this page, any more than the rest of us do. It feels like you're trying to trade off different sets of proposals for the interview and debate sections against each other, as though you have some particular right to make offers and cut deals. That's not how any of this works. We're trying to find a consensus in the sense that we have a common interest in developing a page that conveys the right information in an accessible way, but none of us specifically controls it or any part of it, and I'm not interested in any kind of 'bargaining' approach.
- Thirdly, I don't find the tables particularly informative. As I said above, these events are only of interest for what is said in them, and yet that's the one thing that none of these tables conveys. If it were solely up to me, I'd scrap them and simply incorporate elements from them which are reported in reliable sources (that are independent of the ones who carried the original debates/interviews) into the narrative of the 'campaign' section. There's an argument for splitting the debates out into their own article, in which the table could be used to introduce a substantial amount of prose describing the content and its impact in proper context. But I don't think the same can be said of the interviews table - we'd be much better off putting this material into prose only. GenevieveDEon (talk) 12:07, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- I am very well aware I don’t own this page. However, we are dealing here with things which are marginal and incremental, and we can all come up with arguments in support of our respective positions. If we are to reach a consensus, that will likely involve compromise, which means some/most people getting some of what they want but not all. You may prefer to be less candid and transparent than I am about what is going on, which is perhaps strategically very wise of you, but inevitably how this will work mechanically is that people will argue most vociferously for the things they feel most strongly about, while quietly backing down on the things they are happy to let slide. That is an implicit cutting of a deal, compared to my admittedly more explicit version. Anyway, hopefully we can resolve this soon. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 09:20, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see the need for a time column in the Debates table at all. Can most of the colours be removed? I'm good with the proposed venue column. I don't see the need for an Interviews section. Interview content can be folded into the Campaign section. Bondegezou (talk) 14:12, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- 1) That level of detail is just cruft, and has neither importance, wide coverage or enduring interest. It might (but only might) be worth mentioning in the pages of those institutions that these took place there, but no relevance here. No argument has been put forward as to why it would fit within policy to include them.
- 2) Wikipedia is not a listings magazine. Anyone with experience of UK television will now that such programmes tend to be mid to late evening, but the exact hour is not encyclopaedically relevant. No argument has been put forward as to why it would fit within policy to include them.
- 3) A note below the heading could suffice for explaining that not all are head to head debates; the phrase town-hall meeting would not fit with the appropriare ENGVAR. (Each leader took questions individually from a studio audience)
- 4) Interviews should be adequately covered within the chronological report of the campaign: any table is a false prioritisation of one broadcast format over another.
- I don't have strong opinions over the colours, but would like input from someone with colour differentiation difficulties on the matter. Kevin McE (talk) 14:33, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- Regarding the debates table, I also don't see the need to include either start or end times. There are many far more important times worth noting in this election campaign: the time of day Rishi Sunak called the election from Downing Street, for instance, or the time he left the D-Day commemorations. Neither of these are given in the article text, and I can't see any argument for the times of every debate being more deserving of inclusion than these. Similarly, locations such as where each party chose to launch their individual manifestos are arguably far more significant than where various debates and not-a-debates took place, and none of these are included in the article text either. However, I concede that previous debates tables have included city/town information, so I suppose this should be retained here for consistency.
- I find it ever so slightly bizarre that, within a table headed '2024 United Kingdom general election debates in Great Britain', there are a whole five events actually tagged as 'not a debate' - one of which is literally Rhun ap Iorwerth on his tod. In other words, over a third of the 2024 GB debates table is comprised of not-a-debates. As a metaphor for the absurdity of a general election campaign, it's perfect. As a model for constructing a table purporting to consist of debates, not so much.
- On a less flippant note, I appreciate that there are always arguments for why things can be included. As an example, take the very straightforward table of parties and candidates just below the debates and interviews. Any number of arguments could be made for additional columns to be bolted on to this: the year each party was established would help in differentiating new-ish parties (such as Alba) from established yet less familiar parties (such as the SDP); listing the leader/s of each party would assist those who can remember the name George Galloway but not the Workers Party of Britain; showing the nation or region each party is running in would aid in differentiating parties contesting 100% of seats in Northern Ireland from those contesting 3% of seats in England. All of this information could be included, but to do so would merely overcomplicate and detract from the table's actual stated purpose, which is to show the relative standing of various political parties in this election. Just because something is interesting doesn't mean it's essential.
- On that principle, I come down on the side of removing all not-a-debates from the debates table, and deleting the interviews sub-section altogether. On the latter point, I would have agreed with prosifying its information, as has previously been suggested. But on reflection, the very few genuine points of interest from these interviews so far - ie, the controversy over Rishi Sunak's ITV appearance and Nigel Farage's Panorama comments on the Russian invasion of Ukraine - are already covered in the main campaign section of the article, and so there seems little justification for merely reiterating them in a dedicated subsection.
- I don't have a strong opinion about table colours either, but would note that (at present) two of the six colours in both the GB and NI table keys are just legacy items from the 2019 table: 'Absent' and 'No debate', both of which should be removed. Likewise, 'Invited' will presumably disappear from the table as of 28th June, provided both Adrian Ramsay and Nigel Farage take part in that day's reboot of The Odd Couple. The 'Surrogate' colour could then be changed to something less similar to 'Present', so as to better differentiate between the two, if others have found this an issue? (Personally, I think the whole 'Surrogate' concept is an odd way of saying 'this person is not a party leader', but heaven knows this conversation doesn't require yet another subplot. Although don't get me started on the fact that one of the participants in the 21st June debate is an unspecified 'Lewis'....) 2A00:23C8:3FA2:D201:9966:4166:7FDB:37C (talk) 00:52, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
Consolidating the most recent discussions, can we live with the following compromise proposal?
- In the Debates table, include the venue (eg, dock10, University of York, etc), but in the same column as the town/city. This corresponds exactly to what was done in the 2019 UK general election article.
- In the Debates table, do not include either start or end times.
- Keep the Debates sub-section/tables called "Debates", for conciseness, but, per Kevin McE‘s suggestion, add an italicised note immediately below the “Debates” heading explaining that not all were head-to-head debates.
- Remove the Interviews sub-section.
Kennethmac2000 (talk) 09:30, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Once again, it is about consensus, not compromise. What evidence of consensus do you claim you have for the inclusion of information about location beyond the city? Kevin McE (talk) 10:53, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- I've reviewed this page for all references to "venue" and "location" and find the following mentions in support:
- 2A0A:EF40:E4A:E101:698A:BD05:47AD:E241: "Greater consistency with precedents would not go amiss: the debates table in the 2019 article included neither start/end times, individual host names, nor a bifurcated column for venue vs town/city. I think alignment with previous years is ample justification for scrapping these innovations here."
[Alignment with previous years would mean a single "Venue" column including both the venue itself and the town/city.] - Bondegezou I'm good with the proposed venue column.
- ThingsCanOnlyGetWetter This looks good! A big improvement.
[This refers to my proposed compromise which includes a single column including both the venue itself and the town/city.] - I obviously support my own proposal.
- 2A0A:EF40:E4A:E101:698A:BD05:47AD:E241: "Greater consistency with precedents would not go amiss: the debates table in the 2019 article included neither start/end times, individual host names, nor a bifurcated column for venue vs town/city. I think alignment with previous years is ample justification for scrapping these innovations here."
- The only direct opposition I can find is from yourself User:Kevin McE.
- WP:CON literally is about compromise, so I'm not sure why you keep saying it isn't:
- "Consensus is Wikipedia's fundamental method of decision making. It involves an effort to address editors' legitimate concerns through a process of compromise ..." Kennethmac2000 (talk) 10:11, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- As an update on the above:
- As already set out, there is a consensus to re-add venue information (to a single column combined with town/city), so I have now done this.
- There is a consensus to not add either start or end times. The current version of the table already doesn't include these, so no further action is required here.
- I have added a note immediately below the "Debates" heading which says:
"This section includes reference to some events which were not head-to-head debates." - Someone else has already removed the Interviews table again - I will leave others to decide whether to remove the Interviews section entirely, or whether to leave the current stub. I am relaxed either way.
- Kennethmac2000 (talk) 10:30, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- "This section includes reference to some events which were not head-to-head debates." - I really think this is a mistake. It's stepping into an editorial voice instead of an encyclopedic one, in order to announce that the section you're about to read doesn't follow its own heading properly.
- On the subject of compromise and consensus - your earlier posts repeatedly framed this as "I will accept X if you accept Y". This presents editing as an exercise in compromise, in which there are defined positions which editors, or groups of editors, are entitled and expected to promote and defend, and from which elements may be traded out in order to reach a text which incorporates some parts from each position. This is not necessarily the case, and as I said above, it leans towards WP:OWN issues. I would rather think of consensus as a collective exploration of the possible space an article might fill, working out which directions are productive, and working together to achieve something which is comprehensible and accessible to the majority of the readership. GenevieveDEon (talk) 11:54, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- It was actually Kevin McE who suggested this, when he wrote: “A note below the heading could suffice for explaining that not all are head to head debates”. I then included this in my consolidated compromise proposal 2 days ago and no-one objected to that part of it.
- The Sky News ‘debate’ in Grimsby and the various Question Time Leaders’ Specials (particularly the one in York) were widely referred to as “debates” and discussed extensively afterwards (in the way that many of the other interviews weren’t), so I think they merit inclusion in some sort of table of the tier-1 TV events of the campaign. (Drawing the line only at strict debates would imply the inclusion of the Channel 4 News debate in Colchester, but not the Question Time Leaders’ Special in York, which seems an unhelpfully strict place to draw the line).
- I would be more than happy if we decided to rename the section from “Debates” to “Debates and <something else>”. Or we could accept that it isn’t a perfect world and keep the current italicised note. The one thing I am against is removing the high-profile events mentioned above. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 14:17, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- I see College2021 has now added a "Format" column. Even if I'm unsure about the values 'Debate' and 'Individual', I think this is another reasonable option. (I'm also content enough with 'Debate' and 'Individual' if we can't think of any alternatives.) Kennethmac2000 (talk) 18:57, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- I further note that, following College2021's addition of the "Format" column, Scotlandshire44 has now removed the line "This section includes reference to some events which were not head-to-head debates." which was added immediately below the "Debates" heading per the discussion above.
- If the view is that the new column now clarifies things, such that the line immediately below the "Debates" heading is no longer necessary, I think that makes sense (though I also wouldn't mind if the line was re-added).
- The one thing I am wondering is whether "Individual" is the right term - "One at a time" could be better, although it is 3 characters longer. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 09:47, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- I've reviewed this page for all references to "venue" and "location" and find the following mentions in support:
Additional manifestos
Please can someone add the following manifestos to the external links at the bottom of the article? I can't, due to semi-protection. Both are from modestly substantial parties contesting more overall seats than, for example, Alba (who are also currently represented in this section).
Scottish Greens, contesting 44 seats: https://greens.scot/sites/default/files/SGP-Westminster-Manifesto-2024-web.pdf
Social Democratic Party, contesting 122 seats: https://sdp.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/SDP_Manifesto_2024.pdf 2A00:23C8:3FA2:D201:6408:F88B:4A0C:2642 (talk) 17:08, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- On the contrary, I'd knock Alba out. We don't need every Tom, Dick and Sheila. Same goes for Alliance and Workers. — Iadmc♫talk 14:34, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- Alba and Workers have 3 MPs between them, and their leaders, Alex Salmond and George Galloway, with the latter being a sitting MP, are extremely famous and notable figues in the British political landscape. Maurnxiao (talk) 14:38, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- It's not a popularity contest. Farage would win hands down if it were. (...) It just get cluttered with all the minor parties being mentioned. — Iadmc♫talk 14:41, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- It's not a popularity contest but popularity is an additional piece of evidence in support of the possibility of both Alba and the workers Party, which have sitting MPs, being important political forces in the British state. Maurnxiao (talk) 14:54, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- How are "popularity" or "importance" assessed? Number of MPs or seats being contested aren't good enough or the article will become cumbersome. It should, as far as I'm concerned, take after notability guidelines: significant coverage in independent, reliable sources. I'm not sure that Alba, Scottish Greens, Workers, ..., get the media coverage that, say, the Eng/Wales Greens or Reform do, despite comparable numbers of MPs. Information on SGs is likely more relevant to 2024 United Kingdom general election in Scotland, if it isn't there already. Irltoad (talk) 15:15, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- These are legitimate political parties with parliamentary representation and you don't want their include their manifestos? It's not, say, the English Democrats. Maurnxiao (talk) 15:19, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- You totally ignored my argument. It is not for us to decide the "legitimacy" of parties, and even if it were this is irrelevant to the matter at hand. We can't discuss everything about every party or the article will become far too long. Media coverage is a good way to assess notability, and not every party in each parliament of the country gets a high level of coverage. Irltoad (talk) 15:38, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- There is extensive media coverage of the Alba and Workers parties. And they both currently have sitting MPs; in the case of the Workers Party, theirs was directly elected. Maurnxiao (talk) 15:42, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- You totally ignored my argument. It is not for us to decide the "legitimacy" of parties, and even if it were this is irrelevant to the matter at hand. We can't discuss everything about every party or the article will become far too long. Media coverage is a good way to assess notability, and not every party in each parliament of the country gets a high level of coverage. Irltoad (talk) 15:38, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- These are legitimate political parties with parliamentary representation and you don't want their include their manifestos? It's not, say, the English Democrats. Maurnxiao (talk) 15:19, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- How are "popularity" or "importance" assessed? Number of MPs or seats being contested aren't good enough or the article will become cumbersome. It should, as far as I'm concerned, take after notability guidelines: significant coverage in independent, reliable sources. I'm not sure that Alba, Scottish Greens, Workers, ..., get the media coverage that, say, the Eng/Wales Greens or Reform do, despite comparable numbers of MPs. Information on SGs is likely more relevant to 2024 United Kingdom general election in Scotland, if it isn't there already. Irltoad (talk) 15:15, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- It's not a popularity contest but popularity is an additional piece of evidence in support of the possibility of both Alba and the workers Party, which have sitting MPs, being important political forces in the British state. Maurnxiao (talk) 14:54, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- It's not a popularity contest. Farage would win hands down if it were. (...) It just get cluttered with all the minor parties being mentioned. — Iadmc♫talk 14:41, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- I think would disagree with knocking out the parties mentioned, but I think it's acceptable to only include parties that either already have MPs, or that have significant coverage e.g. in the opinion polls. This would probably include the Scottish Greens but maybe exclude SDP. The other question would be significant media coverage. It's also clear that Alba/Alliance have significant mentions in the opinion polls, being listed in more or less every opinion poll in their respective countries (and Alliance polling in first place on one). Workers party and SDP are not listed in most opinion polls however. Eastwood Park and strabane (talk) 15:41, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- On the other hand, in favour of the SDP/Workers being added, is that they come 6th and 7th respectively in number of candidates, which is significant. These parties have candidates in a large number of seats across the country which might warrant more coverage? Eastwood Park and strabane (talk) 15:47, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- Alba and Workers have 3 MPs between them, and their leaders, Alex Salmond and George Galloway, with the latter being a sitting MP, are extremely famous and notable figues in the British political landscape. Maurnxiao (talk) 14:38, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
I think every party with MPs when Parliament was dissolved is a sensible starting point. I’m not against further parties being included, e.g. on the basis of # candidates. Certainly, any party that has received significant secondary RS coverage should be included. Bondegezou (talk) 16:33, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- Did not expect to find this level of convo when I remembered to check on this today!
- To clarify my original request, I was thinking on the basis of including all ten of the largest parties in terms of seats contested: hence adding the SDP (#7) and Scottish Greens (#10). (The Co-operative Party have, of course, not produced a separate manifesto for this election.) Plaid Cymru and Alba make sense to retain as parties that are contesting a third or more of the seats in their respective nation; Plaid are of course standing in every Welsh seat, whilst Alba are contesting 19 of the 57 seats in Scotland (which is a greater proportion than, for example, the Workers Party of Britain, who are only contesting 27% of English constituencies).
- The idea of leaving out Alliance is quixotic at best. Anyone who follows Northern Irish politics will know that the parties currently represented are very much the five canonical parties contesting this election, as evidenced by the fact they were all included in both the BBC and ITV debates. Indeed, Alliance actually had an MP elected in 2019, which is more than can be said for the UUP, who haven't returned a Westminster candidate for almost a decade. 2A00:23C8:3FA2:D201:C8F1:B3CD:EA9D:434C (talk) 00:02, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed that we should respect the usual RS approach of seeing 5 canonical parties in NI and include all of their manifestos. Bondegezou (talk) 09:52, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
Background section
The background section is becoming increasingly long. Anyone have any ideas on how to best condense it? ThingsCanOnlyGetWetter (talk) 10:19, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- I actually think it's pretty tight. Compared to how it was shortly after the election was called, it's clear and relevant throughout. The subsection headings help to keep it organised. If anything, I'd add a short introductory paragraph above the 'Conservative party' subheading, introducing the general situation - COVID-19, Brexit, the new monarch. GenevieveDEon (talk) 11:56, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- I've trimmed it down a bit now. Bondegezou (talk) 20:16, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
Sub-headings for campaign section
Hi all, soliciting opinions here: how should the dates for the sub-headings in the campaign section be arranged? I've been tweaking things so that 20-26 June and 27 June - Present is now a heading instead of 21 June - Present. This is on the basis of "weeks until election", i.e. 20-26 June is the second week until polling day and 27 June - Present is the final week. But opinions welcome here - should this be done another way? Such as splitting it where it feels natural, etc. DimensionalFusion (talk) 22:16, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
Party slogans section
(CCing in @Nolbraltar1704)
I've removed the party slogans section on the grounds that it's extremely bulky and contributes to the general tablespam problem this article has while giving arguably undue coverage to a number of v. fringe parties. I don't think it's worth inclusion unless notable external coverage can be found and would probably better fit a brief mention for the major parties in the campaign(?) section. Would appreciate any thoughts. CipherRephic (talk) 00:21, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed! We need to be looking at where reliable sources are focusing and follow them. They are not focusing on slogans. Bondegezou (talk) 09:46, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
What happens when party endorsement is removed?
According to Swedish media (e.g. this article in Aftonbladet), candidates Craig Williams and Laura Saunders no longer have the support of their party. As the ballots are already printed, they remain Tory candidates, but will - if elected - be seated as independents. This seems to be confirmed by British media too (e.g. Sky News).
The electoral systems varying much between countries, I think this might merit mentionning/explaining in the article. In a tight race, this could be very important. In this race, it will probably not affect the general outcome but will explain the election results.
- Should it be mentionned?
- If so, where? (This article, the Betting Scandal Article, other articles...?)
- If so, how specific should the mention be? (With 650 seats, this might happen a lot. If so, a more general mention would be suitable, unless it is very uncommon and thus merits a lot of detail.)
Personally, I was thinking something along the lines of
- "Both major major parties have withdrawn support for several of their candidates, resulting in the candidates standing as independent. When loss of support occured after deadline XYZ, the candidates remain party candidates on the ballot, but will not be extended (correct wording?) the party whip if returned to Parliament."
OJH (talk) 11:33, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- It's generally always the case if MPs or candidates have the support withdrawn by their party, they sit as independents if they are elected (these cases are still standing under their party affiliation, because nominations had closed). It's not something specific to this election. The specific examples above are already mentioned in the 2024 United Kingdom general election betting scandal and (as are all candidates that have been disowned) on their respective constituency articles. Sionk (talk) 11:57, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, I've just realised that Reform has done the same thing, over racial comments (TT article in Swedish).
- So, your point is that, since this happens all the time, it does not need explaining in this article? But that said, I should go look for an article on UK elections and make sure that it can be found there? Have I got you right? Thanks again. OJH (talk) 13:06, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- @OJH, is Candidates in the 2024 United Kingdom general election#Deselected and disowned candidates what you're looking for? DankJae 13:11, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- @DankJae Yes! Perfect! OJH (talk) 16:35, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- @OJH, is Candidates in the 2024 United Kingdom general election#Deselected and disowned candidates what you're looking for? DankJae 13:11, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
Election Infobox and Maps
Isn’t it time now that we are at the Monday before the election to change the infobox to show all the usual percentages and seats ect as showing the old number of seats that each party had is now kinda irrelevant and also where are we with the blank SVG maps we will need for the results come late Thursday and into Friday? (MOTORAL1987 (talk) 06:42, 1 July 2024 (UTC))
- No. The rationale for the current infobox applies until the voting has concluded. We have previously agreed not to have blank SVG maps. Wait until they're not blank! Bondegezou (talk) 20:15, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
- Good afternoon @Bondegezou thank you for replying as no one else has done until now and I have asked this question at least three times over the campaign with no answer, I appreciate the answer and I do accept that you don’t want blank SVG maps on the main page before results come in however do we have a plan in place for the results and if so does that include regional maps as well. I will appreciate also that this is much more complicated with the new boundaries so I hope you understand why I am asking this. Thank you (MOTORAL1987 (talk) 14:07, 2 July 2024 (UTC))
- I'm sorry, MOTORAL1987, that no-one else has answered your question! I see what you mean now about blank SVG maps now. Sorry I can't help there. Bondegezou (talk) 15:02, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- Good afternoon @Bondegezou thank you for replying as no one else has done until now and I have asked this question at least three times over the campaign with no answer, I appreciate the answer and I do accept that you don’t want blank SVG maps on the main page before results come in however do we have a plan in place for the results and if so does that include regional maps as well. I will appreciate also that this is much more complicated with the new boundaries so I hope you understand why I am asking this. Thank you (MOTORAL1987 (talk) 14:07, 2 July 2024 (UTC))
- No problem @ Bondegezou and I can’t help either, is there anyone that can help at all as we are very short of time now (MOTORAL1987 (talk) 18:46, 2 July 2024 (UTC))
Projected seats values
I'm not certain of the convention regarding this, so any input is appreciated: it seems that some of the values in the "Projections" section have been adjusted from their sources to aid consistency, such as adding the NI seats to the "Others" section on those sources which only cover GB, and transferring the Speaker's seat to "Others". I understand that this may be helpful for comparison, though since this appears to have been applied inconsistently, I should like to question whether it would be better to have the displayed values match exactly their counterparts in the cited sources for ease of verification. It would be nice to ascertain consensus before adding the polls for this week.
On a side note, I've been unable to verify the values listed for The Economist, since their site doesn't seem to work through archive.org. The values listed do not appear to add to 632/650, which is probably deserving of an explanatory refn.
Cheers, Closingbrackettalk 17:21, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
- I've started the process of verifying these myself, and have decided to maintain the original format (as described in the note at the top of the section) given a fair number of the sources choose to publish thereas. Unfortunately, many of the sites, in choosing to update "live", have failed to maintain a static, archivable version.
- I'm unsure as to the benefit of retaining the headers organising the tables into separate weeks; this was mentioned above but not resolved. Currently, "three weeks before the election" is missing, and the "weeks" are not well-defined in the slightest. Closingbrackettalk 22:19, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
Reform colour on the electoral map (when the results come)
Hello everyone,
Just a quick concern about the colour of Reform on the map of constituencies that will be created as usual when the results come through. Reform's light blue / turquoise colour is far too similar to the Conservatives. Look here, for instance, at Survation's latest prediction. When viewing it small (as it will be seen in the infobox), it's impossible to tell which of the blue seats are Reform seats. On closer inspection, it becomes easier, but still the colours are just too similar.
I propose, for the electoral map, making the colour of the Reform seats either a lighter or darker shade than the blue of the Conservatives. Something like this perhaps -
There is still a chance Reform could not win any seats, in which case none of this will be an issue. Dhantegge (talk) 05:27, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- I should add that the lighter shade of turquoise I've chosen as an example resembles that of the National Liberal Party as in, for example, the 1935 United Kingdom general election, which is easily distinguished from the Conservative party blue. Dhantegge (talk) 05:30, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think this light blue hough distinct is too different from Reform's turquoise colour. Something like this is better IMO:
- ConOfficial Ref
- ConLight Blue (#9CF2FF)
- ConMy Proposal (#00E5E5)沁水湾 (talk) 11:18, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Seems like a reasonable suggestion to me. — Czello (music) 09:15, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- Cool :) can we get some more people on board for this? @Czello @Closingbracket @DimensionalFusion Dhantegge (talk) 09:08, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes DimensionalFusion (talk) 09:09, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Wicked Dhantegge (talk) 09:14, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I also feel strongly that a combo of two similar blues for Con / Reform and TILE would be a bad choice for visually impaired users... or even anyone short sighted lol Dhantegge (talk) 09:15, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- There seems to be a consensus for abandoning TILE once the results are in in favour of TIE, so infobox shouldn't be too troublesome. — Czello (music) 10:02, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I also feel strongly that a combo of two similar blues for Con / Reform and TILE would be a bad choice for visually impaired users... or even anyone short sighted lol Dhantegge (talk) 09:15, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Wicked Dhantegge (talk) 09:14, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes DimensionalFusion (talk) 09:09, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Cool :) can we get some more people on board for this? @Czello @Closingbracket @DimensionalFusion Dhantegge (talk) 09:08, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'd only be concerned for the contrast against the grey/white backdrop (perhaps more so in the seats composition diagram beneath, where there isn't the benefit of the constituencies being outlined in black), but it doesn't seem to be an issue in the 1935 article. Closingbrackettalk 14:08, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Post-result infobox
There was an earlier discussion about the post-results infobox, now archived. CipherRephic shared their sandbox suggestion showing 6 parties (Con, Lab, LibDem, SNP, Green, RefUK, in that order). There was discussion on what parties to include and how, with some suggesting the infobox should show parties like Reform UK and the Greens in preference to parties winning more seats (e.g. maybe DUP, Sinn Fein) given their significance in the story of the election. I said back then that we need to respect the standard infobox approach and show parties in order of how many seats they win. We don't know what the results will be, with a lot of uncertainty around smaller parties, but there is a possibility that first past the post will deliver a significant mismatch between seats won and vote share. As we get nearer polling day, I thought it important to re-visit this. Maybe the results will come out such that a traditional TIE infobox, with 6 or 9 parties, works normally. If so, we can stop worrying!
I think it is completely unacceptable to have an infobox like CipherRephic's proposal if that does not reflect the election results (i.e. seats won). You can't have a party coming, say, seventh on seats and third on votes (as could happen to Reform UK), and list them sixth. That's just nonsense; specifically, it violates WP:OR. We have to write for the casual reader. A casual reader coming to this infobox will presume it works like other election infoboxes. That is, the party listed sixth did sixth best in the election results. Deviating from that is highly misleading.
Impru20 suggests we could include additional criteria
around the infobox. I suspect it would be hard to agree on such, but more importantly, it's not a workable solution. You can't expect casual readers to trawl through a Talk page to find out criteria being used. They see an infobox: they will expect it to work like other election infoboxes. It needs to be clear to the casual reader what we are saying. Chessrat came up with an approach that I think is on a better track, including the Northern Irish parties, but lumping them together. I don't think that works, as such. It's hard to think of two more diametrically opposed political parties in the UK than the DUP and SF: to lump them together is misleading. Also, we have to obey WP:NPOV. We in GB may tend to ignore the NI results (except in 2017 when May needed DUP support), but readers in Northern Ireland, or indeed southern Ireland, will be more interested in those results (as Kevin McE pointed out). But if we are to deviate from usual practice, it has to be something where it is immediately clear to the reader what we are doing and at least with Chessrat's suggestion, you can see something is going on.
I am not blind to the problem. (I'd happily switch the UK away from FPTP just to avoid infobox arguments!) So, what can we do? I have suggestions. (1) The infobox can't do everything, so let's make sure the WP:LEAD text is good and flags up these issues of certain parties getting lots of votes, but few seats. (2) Stick to the usual infobox approach, even if some parties are excluded, but have a graphic in the infobox that tells the rest of the story, e.g. of vote share vs seat share. (3) Can we do a TILE-style infobox that shows seats and vote share? Then we can list lots of parties compactly and it will be clear if parties like Reform UK and the Greens do well on votes while winning few seats. (4) It's my least favourite option, but what about some sort of TIE infobox where it is very clearly indicated that we're not showing the straight results, like maybe a 6-party GB infobox (following seat order in GB) followed by a 3-party NI infobox (following seat order in NI)? But what we absolutely cannot do is list a party fifth who didn't come fifth! Bondegezou (talk) 16:06, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- as i said previously, it seems fairly off to exclude a party getting (potentially) a popular vote in the high teen %ages from the infobox given the political impact of such a party, but if it's really that "completely unacceptable" and going to cause this much trouble then it's probably just easier to do a 4x4 box (LAB, CON, LDM, SNP, adjust order to preference). A seperate NI box seems unnecessary. CipherRephic (talk) 16:51, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- also, I'd personally avoid using TILE in any form like the plague in this case. given the many recent scuffles it seems there's a fairly solid consensus not to use TILE outside of countries with loads of small parties like the netherlands and israel. CipherRephic (talk) 16:53, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- You suggest TILE is acceptable for
countries with loads of small parties like the netherlands and israel
. I suggest the UK is a country with loads of small parties. 10 parties won seats at the 2019 general election. The figure will probably be 11-12 this time around. That compares to 15 at the last Dutch election and 10 at the last Israeli election. If we're electing more parties than Israel and TILE works for Israel, then the conclusion that TILE could work for the UK seems obvious to me. What am I missing? Bondegezou (talk) 19:11, 2 July 2024 (UTC)- the small parties in NL and israel are important to include in the infobox because a. governments there are almost always formed as broad coalitions of several small parties and b. all the parties are fairly small, unlike other countries where, yes, there are a lot of small parties, but there are also a few major parties that tend to be the only real factors in a big-picture view of the election. see the debates around south africa and france, where we quite recently had a fairly vigorous discussion leading to an anti-TILE consensus. the situation in the UK is similar to that in south africa and france, in that we have a select few large parties which control the vast majority of seats, even though there are a number of smaller parties - thus using TIE would be better because it provides a better summary of the major players at a glance (plus, subjectively, a strong majority of people think it looks way better) CipherRephic (talk) 19:21, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that the UK has
a select few large parties which control the vast majority of seats, even though there are a number of smaller parties
, so, while not my first preference, I don't mind if we have a TIE infobox with as few as 4 parties shown, or we could have 6, or I see South Africa has 9 for their last election. (I prefer TILE; I get that I'm probably in a minority on that.) As long as those are the 4 (or 6 or 9) parties that control the most seats. Bondegezou (talk) 19:31, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that the UK has
- the small parties in NL and israel are important to include in the infobox because a. governments there are almost always formed as broad coalitions of several small parties and b. all the parties are fairly small, unlike other countries where, yes, there are a lot of small parties, but there are also a few major parties that tend to be the only real factors in a big-picture view of the election. see the debates around south africa and france, where we quite recently had a fairly vigorous discussion leading to an anti-TILE consensus. the situation in the UK is similar to that in south africa and france, in that we have a select few large parties which control the vast majority of seats, even though there are a number of smaller parties - thus using TIE would be better because it provides a better summary of the major players at a glance (plus, subjectively, a strong majority of people think it looks way better) CipherRephic (talk) 19:21, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- Agree, I favour TIE here. — Czello (music) 09:53, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- You suggest TILE is acceptable for
- also, I'd personally avoid using TILE in any form like the plague in this case. given the many recent scuffles it seems there's a fairly solid consensus not to use TILE outside of countries with loads of small parties like the netherlands and israel. CipherRephic (talk) 16:53, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Bondegezou How would you feel about an infobox a la the second and third ones here? I'd prefer the second out of the two but i'm very much amenable to either. CipherRephic (talk) 16:58, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- If those are the top 4 or 6 parties, then, great, I'm OK with those infoboxes. Thanks for putting them together. Bondegezou (talk) 19:16, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- There's also the possibility of a hybrid TIE/TILE box if needed. Here's my attempt (using dummy data mostly from the most recent MRP): User:Chessrat/sandbox/UK2024 Chessrat (talk, contributions) 17:51, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think that's a great idea. unncessary duplication of the data and v. bulky CipherRephic (talk) 18:10, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- I kinda like it. I'm all for minimalist infoboxes, as per MOS:INFOBOX, so my first preference would be just the TILE box, but I think the mash-up does kind of give everyone something. I could go with that. That said, there are a million and one arguments, always, over infoboxes. I have my preferences, but other people have other preferences! My main concern here is that whatever we do, it cannot mislead casual readers or break WP:OR/WP:SYNTH/WP:NPOV. So I strongly believe that means we have to list parties in order by how many people they get elected. I can live with most things that follow that obvious rule. Bondegezou (talk) 19:16, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- I would say that if there are equal seat numbers it's fine to include one party on that number but not another (e.g. DUP and Lib Dems both on 8 seats in 2015 but only the Lib Dems are featured in the infobox there).
- Out of the feasible results, it's highly unlikely that the Greens achieve more seats than the DUP/SF, and including the NI parties but not the Greens doesn't feel right, so my preferred options depending on the feasible results would be:
- 1) If the Lib Dems finish ahead of Reform in vote share and ahead of the SNP in seats: three-way infobox (Lab, Con, LD).
- 2) If Reform finishes ahead of the Lib Dems in vote share and ahead of the Northern Irish parties in seats: five-way infobox (Lab, Con, LD, SNP, Reform)
- 3) If Reform and the Greens are both in the top eight/nine (outright or tied), include the top eight/nine respectively. Most likely Lab, Con, LD, SNP, DUP, Sinn Fein, Reform, Green, and a maximum of one out of Plaid/Alliance/SDLP/UUP.
- 4) If none of these events pass- go for the hybrid TIE/TILE box. Chessrat (talk, contributions) 21:25, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- If parties are tied on seats won, perfectly sensible to split the tie by vote share. Bondegezou (talk) 22:25, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE says the purpose of an infobox is to summarise key facts that appear in the article - if Reform UK was to get a significant vote share, that sounds like a key fact that would appear in the body of the article. DimensionalFusion (talk) 20:14, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- I do not object to an infobox that says "Reform UK got a significant vote share". I do object to an infobox that ranks the parties and puts a party in (say) fifth position that did not come fifth in the election results. That is misleading when every or nearly every other election article infobox puts parties in order by seats won. You cannot mislead readers. You cannot pretend a party came fifth when they didn't to make a point: that's violating WP:OR/WP:V. Entirely happy to discuss how to highlight Reform UK's significant vote share in other ways, and have made suggestions to that effect. If Reform UK come within the top 9 on seats won (as they might well), problem solved: use a 9-way TIE infobox. Bondegezou (talk) 22:25, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- I remember the Athletics at the 1984 Summer Olympics – Women's 3000 metres. The story of the race was all about Zola Budd and our article talks at length about Budd. But Budd fell and didn’t medal. The infobox shows the three women who did medal. Should we just show Budd in the Bronze medal position because she’s a
key fact
? No, of course not. We have to respect the actual result of the race. When an infobox shows the result of an election, it has to reflect the actual result too. Bondegezou (talk) 06:18, 3 July 2024 (UTC) - There is precisely one circumstance in which I could support violating this rule- namely, the "Canada 1993" style result. If the Conservatives were to fail to get any MPs, including them in the infobox would be useful for the purpose of highlighting the decline in support of the previously governing party. Aside from this very specific scenario, I agree with you. Chessrat (talk, contributions) 22:46, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- I remember the Athletics at the 1984 Summer Olympics – Women's 3000 metres. The story of the race was all about Zola Budd and our article talks at length about Budd. But Budd fell and didn’t medal. The infobox shows the three women who did medal. Should we just show Budd in the Bronze medal position because she’s a
- I do not object to an infobox that says "Reform UK got a significant vote share". I do object to an infobox that ranks the parties and puts a party in (say) fifth position that did not come fifth in the election results. That is misleading when every or nearly every other election article infobox puts parties in order by seats won. You cannot mislead readers. You cannot pretend a party came fifth when they didn't to make a point: that's violating WP:OR/WP:V. Entirely happy to discuss how to highlight Reform UK's significant vote share in other ways, and have made suggestions to that effect. If Reform UK come within the top 9 on seats won (as they might well), problem solved: use a 9-way TIE infobox. Bondegezou (talk) 22:25, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- My take on this:
- 1) On the use of TILE: yes, it was originally intended for
countries with loads of small parties like the netherlands and israel
. And I'll add: for countries with loads of small parties whose results are fairly proportional and fragmented (and thus, close to each other). It makes no sense for countries such as the UK (or Spain, or France, or Italy) where yes, you may have about 10-20 parties getting into parliament depending on the election, but where only about 3 to 5 of these parties get a significant amount of seats: it feels weird and close to WP:UNDUE to put at a party with 100, 200, 300 seats next to one with 1 seat (and I should note here that I'm aware of this applying to UKIP in 2015 or to Reform/Greens now; that's why I spoke of includingadditional criteria
. But barred any such criteria, my position is that of using TIE with no more than 6 parties appearing and sorted by number of seats, even if that excludes UKIP/Reform, though I'll elaborate on why I think those should appear based on other criteria). On this, I (almost) wholeheartedly agree with Bondegezou's position in this edit (except for the TILE-preference bit :P). - 2) I'm also against this proposal because of the reasons exposed by CipherRephic (unncessary duplication of the data and v. bulky) as well as because of MOS:INFOBOX (
An infobox is a panel [...] that summarizes key facts about the page's subject
). Adding the full seat results is not a summary and (in my opinion) should only be done in extreme situations where you cannot fully grasp the overall picture of results without adding all of these (which is what happens in Israel or the Netherlands). - 3) When I talk of
additional criteria
I mean some restrictive ones, i.e. ones that should not apply in "normal" circumstances because the system works by itself, but rather in "abnormal" situations where weird electoral (but still notable) things happen, which is more frequent for FPTP systems than for other systems. UK 2015 was one, UK 2024 will probably be another one (though we will have to wait and see the actual results first). Canada 1993, as Chessrat is also a good example: the PCs are currently in the infobox by virtue of (barely) having 2 seats, but imagine a situation where they got 0. Bondegezou's view would imply that they got out of the infobox in such a situation, despite they being the ruling party and their decline being the whole story of the election. You also have 1935 Prince Edward Island general election or 1987 New Brunswick general election in which extreme situations did happen, with infobox inclusion criteria relying mostly on vote share because of a single party getting all of the seats and all other ones 0 seats. Remember: notability is a master guideline in Wikipedia, and while it mostly applies to article creation, it ultimately also covers article content. And the infobox is meant to summarize article content. Yes, you can highlight this in text, but isn't acknowledging the importance of this in text but omitting it from the infobox (which is meant tosummarize key facts about the page's subject
) in itself contradictory? Btw, I would not compare this with sports events since those work out differently (I would only agree if parties got medals or any other actual thropies based on their seat count, but that's clearly not the case). - This said, I understand Bondegezou's reasoning and ultimately, if no additional criteria can be agreed for, I'd rather have TIE with the 3 to 6 parties getting more seats than other solutions where the infobox is packed with minor parties (because that, ultimately, would not fully satisfy anyone). Any agreement should be crystal clear and as little interventionist as possible on current consensus for party inclusion, as only that would ensure that the issue is not re-opened in the future (or, at the very least, not as many times as would be the case for other alternatives). Impru20talk 08:45, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Impru20 Thanks for your considered thoughts. To be clear on one point, I have no objection to including parties who win 0 seats, as long as they come after the parties winning >0 seats. This "solves" the Canadian examples you give. Bondegezou (talk) 11:56, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- I prefer TILE because TIE seems far too bloated, massively too presidential, and goes way beyond the stated purpose of an infobox. The purpose of an infobox ("Key facts about the page's subject") is not served by details of the party leader's constituency or date of election, details of numbers from previous elections, etc. Looking at the 2019 election article, there are many details on the infobox there that are not even mentioned in the article itself (election of party leaders other than main 2, constituency name even of Johnson, numbers outside of tables) so the infobox's contents are evidently not 'key'. Even photos of party leaders are gratuitous: only about 0.15% of the population even have a chance to vote directly for Starmer or Sunak: entire countries within the UK don't get to vote for even the parties of some others. 4 1/2 years after the 2019 election, how many people would recognise the photo of Jo Swinson?
- Other than precedent, what are the arguments in favour of TIE? Kevin McE (talk) 10:43, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- The reason I, personally dislike TILE is that it is ugly. However in terms of an actual reason; TILE is repetitive, and it is not a summary - which is what an infobox should be. The full election results are available at the bottom of the page in the results section - why is it entirely duplicated at the top? If that's what a person wants to see, they should go to the results section. TIE is a summary, showing the key factors and important parties. DimensionalFusion (talk) 08:13, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- In what way does TIE show
the key factors
? Bondegezou (talk) 08:55, 4 July 2024 (UTC)- Vote totals, turnout, party leaders, their seats, last election results, seats before, seats change, swing. These are all key in determining the outcome of an election - TILE has some of these, but not all. DimensionalFusion (talk) 09:03, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the answer. I thought you meant factors more broadly (e.g. Brexit in 2019) and was confused. I note party leaders' seats is not a key factor and usually gets no mention in the article text, and thus should not be in the infobox at all. MOS:INFOBOX is clear that everything in the infobox needs to be covered in the article. Bondegezou (talk) 09:33, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Ah that’s on my, should’ve worded that better DimensionalFusion (talk) 09:52, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- But MOS:INFOBOXEXCEPTIONS says that if information is hard to naturally fit into an article, it can/should be added to the info box; I believe this applies to leader’s seat here DimensionalFusion (talk) 13:31, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think the language at MOS:INFOBOXEXCEPTIONS or, if I remember it correctly, past discussion of the rule's application there supports that. Bondegezou (talk) 14:59, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- That’s the great thing though- Leader’s seat doesn’t have to be included. Although I see no reason why it should be omitted DimensionalFusion (talk) 17:38, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- (OK, this was the discussion I was thinking of: Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Infoboxes/Archive_18#RfC_about_exceptions_to_WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE_and_commanders/leaders_in_Template:Infobox_military_conflict.) Bondegezou (talk) 15:02, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think the language at MOS:INFOBOXEXCEPTIONS or, if I remember it correctly, past discussion of the rule's application there supports that. Bondegezou (talk) 14:59, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the answer. I thought you meant factors more broadly (e.g. Brexit in 2019) and was confused. I note party leaders' seats is not a key factor and usually gets no mention in the article text, and thus should not be in the infobox at all. MOS:INFOBOX is clear that everything in the infobox needs to be covered in the article. Bondegezou (talk) 09:33, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Vote totals, turnout, party leaders, their seats, last election results, seats before, seats change, swing. These are all key in determining the outcome of an election - TILE has some of these, but not all. DimensionalFusion (talk) 09:03, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Is TILE what we have at the moment? It's absolutely hideous and I despise it. Literally EVERY other British election has the other style. If people are saying "oh no we have to have the ugly one because there are too many parties", just have the top four parties in the infobox. Simple. Dhantegge (talk) 09:06, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- We have long used TILE for forthcoming UK elections, for reasons that have been discussed previously at length. While I prefer TILE, I'm fine with TIE with
the top four parties
by seats once the results are in. Bondegezou (talk) 09:33, 4 July 2024 (UTC) - Switch to Template:Infobox election ! Dhantegge (talk) 09:07, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yep. Even the subpages of this election use TIE, but this one specific page uses TILE for... reasons? DimensionalFusion (talk) 09:08, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- It goes against the entire point of having an infobox. If people want to read binary results for every single party in small font, they can go deeper into the article. People want a bold snapshot of the big winners for the lead, with the swing and seat numbers. TILE ignores this, and also entirely ignores the nuances of British politics - the fact, for example, that Northern Ireland's political environment and party system has been entirely seperate from the United Kingdom since Sunningdale in the 1970s. Dhantegge (talk) 09:12, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Northern Ireland does have a different political environment from Great Britain, but it's still part of the UK and of this election. We can't just ignore Northern Ireland, as per WP:NPOV. Bondegezou (talk) 09:33, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think I've seen it used for elections that are a long way off, just as a temporary measure, especially when leaders are prone to change. The article reads like an election article from 2021, when the election is literally happening now. Dhantegge (talk) 09:13, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- It goes against the entire point of having an infobox. If people want to read binary results for every single party in small font, they can go deeper into the article. People want a bold snapshot of the big winners for the lead, with the swing and seat numbers. TILE ignores this, and also entirely ignores the nuances of British politics - the fact, for example, that Northern Ireland's political environment and party system has been entirely seperate from the United Kingdom since Sunningdale in the 1970s. Dhantegge (talk) 09:12, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Agree. It feels like the majority of users here are in favour of TIE. — Czello (music) 09:57, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'll add my support for using TIE, but maybe only once the results come in. Eastwood Park and strabane (talk) 09:58, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I am also a strong support for using TIE. CuriousCabbage (talk) 12:44, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for those comments, but this section wasn't intended to be about TIE versus TILE. There's no voting going on here! The question at hand is about the order of parties and what parties to include in the infobox, in the context of an election result that might be rather different to the vote shares obtained. Bondegezou (talk) 14:54, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Now the exit poll is out– TIE infobox of Lab, Con, LD, Reform if it's accurate? Chessrat (talk, contributions) 21:20, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for those comments, but this section wasn't intended to be about TIE versus TILE. There's no voting going on here! The question at hand is about the order of parties and what parties to include in the infobox, in the context of an election result that might be rather different to the vote shares obtained. Bondegezou (talk) 14:54, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I am also a strong support for using TIE. CuriousCabbage (talk) 12:44, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'll add my support for using TIE, but maybe only once the results come in. Eastwood Park and strabane (talk) 09:58, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- We have long used TILE for forthcoming UK elections, for reasons that have been discussed previously at length. While I prefer TILE, I'm fine with TIE with
- In what way does TIE show
- The reason I, personally dislike TILE is that it is ugly. However in terms of an actual reason; TILE is repetitive, and it is not a summary - which is what an infobox should be. The full election results are available at the bottom of the page in the results section - why is it entirely duplicated at the top? If that's what a person wants to see, they should go to the results section. TIE is a summary, showing the key factors and important parties. DimensionalFusion (talk) 08:13, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Reform and the Greens were on the infobox here a few hours ago, but they're missing now which is extremely questionable. What is the reasoning for this, when they both received millions of votes? 675930s (talk) 11:08, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- The exact same thing happened with the 2015 infobox with UKIP. There's a very obvious agenda at play, and it is very hard to justify not including the 3rd most popular vote on the infobox. Yet, they still persist to obscure the information and make it harder to access at a glance. 86.137.148.183 (talk) 21:35, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- UKIP and Green* might I correct myself. 86.137.148.183 (talk) 21:36, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- The exact same thing happened with the 2015 infobox with UKIP. There's a very obvious agenda at play, and it is very hard to justify not including the 3rd most popular vote on the infobox. Yet, they still persist to obscure the information and make it harder to access at a glance. 86.137.148.183 (talk) 21:35, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Jeffrey Donaldson
A couple of editors have removed the text about Jeffrey Donaldson:
- Jeffrey Donaldson, who was the the DUP leader until March 2024, appeared in court on 3 July to face additional sex offence charges.[1][2]
They have said it is not part of the campaign. I suggest that they are editorialising. Reliable sources are discussing these events in the context of the election. They are expected to have an impact on the election. We should follow reliable sources, not editors' personal views.
But what do others think?
References
- ^ Pepper, Diarmuid (2024-07-01). "Alliance confident of taking Westminster seat Jeffrey Donaldson has held for almost three decades". TheJournal.ie. Retrieved 2024-07-03.
- ^ McCambridge, Jonathan (2024-07-02). "Former DUP leader Jeffrey Donaldson facing more sex offence charges". Irish Examiner. Retrieved 2024-07-03.
Bondegezou (talk) 09:37, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that this is an important thing to include within the article, although I’m 50/50 as to whether it should be in the campaign section DimensionalFusion (talk) 10:43, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe add it to 2024 United Kingdom general election in Northern Ireland? 2A0A:EF40:E4A:E101:1D3D:909:A1B3:2F4B (talk) 12:20, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- He is not a candidate, and not a holder of a major position in his party. I am inclined to be opposed to him in just about every possible issue, but his direct relevance to the election is very very low. How much profile did whatever canvassing he had done since the calling of the election generate? Kevin McE (talk) 14:45, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Reliable sources, as given, talk about this in the context of the election. If reliable sources think it's relevant, it's not for us to dispute that. Bondegezou (talk) 14:49, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with @Bondegezou. The change of three leaders in a few months is also very much relevant as background for the DUP election results, which will be added later on tonight/tomorrow. OJH (talk) 14:53, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I've put something under Background for now. (There was something under Background previously, but it got cut somewhere along the way.) Bondegezou (talk) 14:57, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with @Bondegezou. The change of three leaders in a few months is also very much relevant as background for the DUP election results, which will be added later on tonight/tomorrow. OJH (talk) 14:53, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Put it in background section. 2A0A:EF40:E4A:E101:1D3D:909:A1B3:2F4B (talk) 15:22, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Reliable sources, as given, talk about this in the context of the election. If reliable sources think it's relevant, it's not for us to dispute that. Bondegezou (talk) 14:49, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- He is not a candidate, and not a holder of a major position in his party. I am inclined to be opposed to him in just about every possible issue, but his direct relevance to the election is very very low. How much profile did whatever canvassing he had done since the calling of the election generate? Kevin McE (talk) 14:45, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Eligibility
Should a section about eligibility on voting be added? 81.154.237.37 (talk) 13:10, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- You could put something under Electoral System if you want. Bondegezou (talk) 14:50, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Alliance and Workers Party removal intentional?
In this diff, you can see that the Alliance Party of NI and Reform UK were removed from the Other Parties Background section, on the basis of not being new parties. This was a good edit and based on sources etc.
Reform UK was later on returned to the section, not as a new party but on its own merits, Farage, leadership change etc.
Should the Alliance Party also be returned to this section, and on what basis? They tie up nicely with the DUP story in the second to last para, and SNP, Sinn Fein, Plaid Cymru, and DUP have all got their mentions. What says the crowd? OJH (talk) 15:02, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm all for saying anything (relevant and appropriately sourced) about Alliance. I merely removed the claim that they are a new party on the grounds that they are not a new party (founded 1970)! Bondegezou (talk) 15:05, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes @Bondegezou, your edit was good. But is a mention relevant, based on them having a seat in the exiting parliament? Others are noted based on leadership change. Would the 2022 NI Assembly election be of interest enough ore am I construing encyclopedic value here? OJH (talk) 15:28, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- There is possibly a deliberate undermining of the Workers Party in the mainstream media of the UK, and it seems to have translated into one what might call a weak attempt to dismiss the Workers Party as dismal, forgettable, or unimportant... a lot of people are familiar with the policies espoused by this party. Especially after the Piers Morgan interview, I struggle to understand why one might claim Galloway is a nobody in this campaign. And keep in mind, there is more to the Workers Party than just their leader, George Galloway.
- As for Alliance, I am willing to admit that I know next to nothing about them. But it appears that there is an ongoing effort to diminish the importance of Northern Ireland in these election articles. There's a few million people voting there, more than a dozen seats, so surely they ought to be mentioned? Maurnxiao (talk) 16:02, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
"Betting Scandal" subsection
I believe it would be best to axe this section under WP: CSECTION, it could be split elsewhere in the article. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 16:35, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- It is not all criticism though? nor titled as a collection of such. DankJae 17:01, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- What do you mean? It is a controversy that has been dedicated an entire section despite not really being detached/breaking out from the general campaign Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 17:31, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Per WP:CSECTION,
controversies are protracted public disputes
– I would not say this is a "public dispute", rather an account of an event that happened & responses to said event. So long as the section remains neutral, I see no issue with it. Irltoad (talk) 17:34, 4 July 2024 (UTC)- Yes per above, it is a balanced (in terms of pov, including responses) section documenting an event during this election. Not a section on all "controversies with the 2024 UK election". The scandal kinda happened separate from the main timeline, so should remain in a short balanced section. DankJae 17:50, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Per WP:CSECTION,
- What do you mean? It is a controversy that has been dedicated an entire section despite not really being detached/breaking out from the general campaign Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 17:31, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- That is a ridiculous suggestion and a profound misunderstanding of WP:CSECTION. Bondegezou (talk) 00:54, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Projections Table Column Doubling Error Overall result
"Overall result" column is in error all the day down. It looks doubled plus or minus one. Example: Final Projection Labor seats 453 - 326 = 127, not 256. – Conrad T. Pino (talk) 19:39, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- The majority is considered to be the difference between the winning group and the remainder. In your example: 650 seats total with 453 to Labour gives a combined opposition of 197; the difference between 453 and 197 is 256. Closingbrackettalk 20:07, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you! – Conrad T. Pino (talk) 18:29, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Time to switch the infobox? (or not?)
(ccing in @Bondegezou, @Chessrat, @Impru20, @DimensionalFusion as some of the more involved participants in previous infobox discussions)
Unless anyone has any particular objections I'll be switching out the infobox to a 3x2 TIE setup with blank results based on the exit poll (i.e. LAB CON LDM REF SNP, no 6th as that'll almost certainly be either DUP or SF and there's no data out on that yet) - any advances on that? CipherRephic (talk) 21:23, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Or not! Looks like that's already been done. Still, remains to be decided whether we do a 3x2, a 2x2 or something else. Suggestions welcomed CipherRephic (talk) 21:24, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yep! It's TIE time DimensionalFusion (talk) 21:26, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Is tie in this context an analogy for strangling smaller parties out of the part of the article people are most interested? Maurnxiao (talk) 21:32, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- It stands for Template:Infobox Election Gust Justice (talk) 21:38, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Maurnxiao Please stop trying to make everything about "small parties". Thanks DimensionalFusion (talk) 22:02, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- What is the meaning of this comment really? Maurnxiao (talk) 22:03, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- What was the meaning of your comment? Randomly bringing up the strangling of smaller parties in an unrelated thread about the infobox DimensionalFusion (talk) 22:04, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- An edit with various notable parties with a presence in the British parliament has been reverted without so much as an edit summary. Preposterous? Maurnxiao (talk) 22:08, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- What was the meaning of your comment? Randomly bringing up the strangling of smaller parties in an unrelated thread about the infobox DimensionalFusion (talk) 22:04, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- What is the meaning of this comment really? Maurnxiao (talk) 22:03, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Is tie in this context an analogy for strangling smaller parties out of the part of the article people are most interested? Maurnxiao (talk) 21:32, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, its time. TheBritinator (talk) 21:29, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I suggest doing this, with the 3x2 format including the 5 largest parties in the exit poll. I would also use the same order as the exit poll's ranking by seats. Given that all major media is using the exit poll in its coverage, I think it's appropriate to take it into account for the infobox. Gust Justice (talk) 21:30, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed with the caveat that if Reform does finish ahead of the SNP, there's no need to include the SNP and 2x2 should be used. Chessrat (talk, contributions) 21:37, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I do think October 1974 United Kingdom general election (where the SNP won 11 seats, yet was not included inthe infobox) could be a precedent for that. Either way, the current layout is preferable for now. Gust Justice (talk) 22:55, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed with the caveat that if Reform does finish ahead of the SNP, there's no need to include the SNP and 2x2 should be used. Chessrat (talk, contributions) 21:37, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, agreed Andreandre011 (talk) 21:31, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Funnily enough, if the exit poll comes to be right, the issue on whether to add Reform based on their vote share alone may not be an issue any longer... Impru20talk 21:53, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- these things do have a strange way of sorting themselves out! CipherRephic (talk) 21:56, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Indeed. Bondegezou (talk) 00:58, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- The updated BBC projection is now only 6 for the SNP and 4 for Reform UK. That would probably put both below the DUP and SF. 7-party infobox? Bondegezou (talk) 02:44, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think a three-party infobox might be the most appropriate with such a result. That being said, the projections on each channel do differ, so I say we wait a bit to see how (poorly) the SNP and Reform UK do. If they end up at 6 and 4 respectively, there is a case for only including the 3 main parties. Otherwise we will unavoidably be arguing over whether or not Sinn Fein should be included. Gust Justice (talk) 02:50, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- The updated BBC projection is now only 6 for the SNP and 4 for Reform UK. That would probably put both below the DUP and SF. 7-party infobox? Bondegezou (talk) 02:44, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Indeed. Bondegezou (talk) 00:58, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- these things do have a strange way of sorting themselves out! CipherRephic (talk) 21:56, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- This seems premature and live updating of the infobox unwise. Wikipedia shouldn’t be trying to be a liveblog. Bondegezou (talk) 00:58, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 4 July 2024
![]() | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Make Keir Starmer’s name bolded because according to the exit polls, his party won. Ali1079 (talk) 21:37, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- This should not occur yet per WP:CRYSTALBALL. The exit poll is not the final result. No party has won before the votes are counted and declared. Gust Justice (talk) 21:39, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- No, for two reasons:
- Firstly, the exit poll is just an indication. We wait for the full results.
- More importantly, we don't put the winning leader's name in bold anyway - see 2019 United Kingdom general election for example. GenevieveDEon (talk) 21:40, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Not done for now: Final results are not declared yet. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk • contribs) 03:04, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Past, present or future tense for this article?
This article is of course going to switch from one tense to another soon, but shouldn't it be done once the official results are out? So far, only an exit poll which is not an official result. Maurnxiao (talk) 21:54, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- P.S. I'm aware that the voting has ended but the counting I think has not. Maurnxiao (talk) 21:55, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Managing results as they come in
So obviously, seats results are being declared at different times. I've added the "reporting" field inbuilt to the infobox and done some very simple maths (1/650)*100 to get the percentage of constituencies declared as Houghton and Sunderland South is the first constituency. Is this OR? Can this be included? DimensionalFusion (talk) 22:19, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- In principle we could do this, but I think most other editors would prefer the results not be shown live in the infobox, at the vrey least until most constituencies have declared. Gust Justice (talk) 22:20, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- It's just some very simple maths showing how many seats have been declared - I think this wouldn't be OR(?) but that's what I'm getting opinions for. I personally think the seat counts themselves being added to parties in the infobox should be held off until all constituencies have been declared, but that's just me DimensionalFusion (talk) 22:23, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I would not have a problem with that, even though technically this isn't how it is normally used. But I think it makes the article better to use, just for the purposes of giving people an idea of how many of the votes have been published. Gust Justice (talk) 22:51, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- It's just some very simple maths showing how many seats have been declared - I think this wouldn't be OR(?) but that's what I'm getting opinions for. I personally think the seat counts themselves being added to parties in the infobox should be held off until all constituencies have been declared, but that's just me DimensionalFusion (talk) 22:23, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- The intention of Wikipedia was not that it would be used as a liveblog to report breaking news like this. I don’t see this as helpful. Bondegezou (talk) 01:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- If this was the case then why would the "results reported" field be part of the template DimensionalFusion (talk) 01:15, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Because (a) some elections in the world count much slower than the UK, and (b) because infobox templates often contain inappropriate fields! The existence of a field doesn’t mean it should be used. Bondegezou (talk) 01:21, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- If this was the case then why would the "results reported" field be part of the template DimensionalFusion (talk) 01:15, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Generally, frequent updates to a live count cause editing conflicts that de-facto lock the article. Live updates for sports articles are usually the main areas of concern for this. Player stats are usually not even updated during the season. DimensionalFusion if you are going to plow ahead and do it anyway, could you at least add a source for the live updates. Your source is showing the conservatives with about twce as many seats as the BBC is reporting, despite Labour seats being similar. Acebulf (talk | contribs) 01:58, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm getting them from https://election.news.sky.com/elections/general-election-2024 as it seems to be faster than other sources in giving count results DimensionalFusion (talk) 02:07, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- @DimensionalFusion: could you please add it to the infobox during your next update. Thanks. Acebulf (talk | contribs) 02:09, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I've looked at different areas to put it but I haven't yet figured out a good place for it DimensionalFusion (talk) 02:20, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Put it, until you figure it out, next to the first seat count. Not having that is a clear violation of policy, it's not a facultative or optional feature. Acebulf (talk | contribs) 02:22, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- @DimensionalFusion do you have a valid reason as to why you are still violating WP:REF, and why we shouldn't just tag every number in that infobox with a citation needed tag, or just revert your updates outright? Acebulf (talk | contribs) 03:19, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Because every time I do that it messes up the div formatting DimensionalFusion (talk) 07:13, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I've looked at different areas to put it but I haven't yet figured out a good place for it DimensionalFusion (talk) 02:20, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- @DimensionalFusion: could you please add it to the infobox during your next update. Thanks. Acebulf (talk | contribs) 02:09, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm getting them from https://election.news.sky.com/elections/general-election-2024 as it seems to be faster than other sources in giving count results DimensionalFusion (talk) 02:07, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- SNP should be above Reform UK in the infobox: they’re higher on seats won and on projections. Bondegezou (talk) 02:50, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Exit poll predicted Reform to surpasses SNP in seats. And currently they're equal with more votes. Maurnxiao (talk) 02:56, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Map
Grateful if we could please decide which map should be used this evening.
沁水湾 grateful if you could please acknowledge result majority of contributors choose.
My vote is for map A. AlloDoon (talk) 22:39, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- B. I think it's a fine map, but too many details to be used in the infobox (e.g. texts are a bit too small for infobox). The map style should be simple & harmonious with previous ones to form a set.
- The map also have too many clipped water bodies for the main map. 沁水湾 (talk) 22:44, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Change is allowed on Wikipedia, keeping in style with other election maps shouldn't be a sole reason for or against a certain design. SimplyLouis27 (talk) 23:12, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- My vote is for B or a map more similar to 2019. But I do not think we should have a live map before the results are in (or almost all in). Gust Justice (talk) 22:44, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Indeed. CipherRephic (talk) 22:45, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- No strong preference but I'd go with map B on subjective aesthetic merit. CipherRephic (talk) 22:45, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think map A on purely subjective grounds DimensionalFusion (talk) 22:47, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- A is easier to read on smaller devices, the lines on B are too fine. SimplyLouis27 (talk) 22:50, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- The legend on A is completely unreadable, so prefer B. Bondegezou (talk) 00:53, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- imo A, though I don't think we need a live updating map TheLoyalOrder (talk) 03:04, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- B. I think that A is difficult to read, since there's too many small boxes of smaller cities and no lines connecting them to their place on the map, requiring prior knowledge of the names. The boxes are big enough in B that theres no difficulty telling where they show on the map, and the smaller ones have lines connecting them. I think all the lakes in A makes it worse to look at, and the map is showing how electorates voted, rather than showing lakes. A Socialist Trans Girl 07:27, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think A should go in the results tab, it could be a margins map while the one in the infobox should stay because it is more simplified and easier to read. GatewayPolitics (talk) 07:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- B - but if it's decided on A then the map creator should flip the labelings in order of either seat count or vote share (not bothered for any particular order). Tweedle, 09:30, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Should the map be included before most constituencies have declared?
Separate from the question of which map to use, some users are insisting that a map (which is to be live updated) should be in the infobox before most constituencies have declared. I suggest that this not be done, and that it is more appropriate that the infobox not be live updated. Gust Justice (talk) 22:58, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Map should be used if it is updated live(ish). Remove if it is not. SimplyLouis27 (talk) 23:00, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Map should be included AlloDoon (talk) 23:01, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Agree with Gust Justice. Bondegezou (talk) 01:05, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Articles to be undeleted
Starting this section so that @Number 57: or another admin can undelete significant articles on newly-elected MPs which have previously been deleted.
First one: Ben Obese-Jecty has been elected. Chessrat (talk, contributions) 01:49, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 5 July 2024
![]() | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
the lib dem number of seats is too low it is now 47 it is still saying 40 Ozderplays (talk) 04:14, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Already done Ligaturama (talk) 06:20, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
What parties should be included in the infobox?
This probably won't be the last section on this, but I think we should establish which parties to include in the infobox. It seems some editors want to include all parties winning at least 3 seats -- this would mean 9 parties would be included in the infobox. To me this is not sustainable. I therefore propose only including the three largest parties by seat total (Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrats) in the infobox. This is the only option that would sort the parties by seat total, and which would not arbitrarily include Sinn Fein ahead of Reform UK. Gust Justice (talk) 04:40, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think wait until the full returns are in before making any decisive moves, and then go with a simple 3x2 of the top six. If there's ties, break it by vote share. I don't think anything more complicated will be necessary. CipherRephic (talk) 04:49, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- The lengths people will go to get Farage's mugshot in the infobox. After the exit poll grossly overstated Reform's seats, many editors were happy to go with 3x2 or even 2x2 as Reform were in fourth place with 13 seats. What excuses will they come up with to shoehorn Reform into infobox now that they've only got four seats? The infobox is meant to be a summary of the key facts. The top three parties have won more than 90% of the seats. We don't need to include the also rans.--Obi2canibe (talk) 05:55, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- They got over 5% of the vote, and got the same number of seats as greens, so I think both should be included. A Socialist Trans Girl 07:07, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- People aren’t trying to get Reform in the infobox, but they are recognizing the party recieved 9% of the vote nationally, and to avoid putting it in the infobox, I believe, is a grave misrepresentation of the outcome of the election. NathanBru (talk) 00:22, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Considering how lopsized the results are in favour of the three largest parties, I also concur that leaving a TIE infobox with Lab, Con and LDs will do the job. Impru20talk 06:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think the greens should be included, and reform too. A Socialist Trans Girl 07:07, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Second this PitterPatter533 (talk) 09:15, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- based??? 98.240.113.219 (talk) 10:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think the greens should be included, and reform too. A Socialist Trans Girl 07:07, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think a top 3 with Lab, Cons, and LibDems will do. I don't see the point in including Farage when he got less seats than SF and the SNP. River10000 (talk) 06:19, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Seat number isn't the only factors, there's also vote number. Which, SF got less than 1% of the vote, and SNP got less than 2.5% of the vote. I think the vote number threshold should be 5%. A Socialist Trans Girl 07:08, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Does the percentage of the vote actually mean anything though? 87.75.143.188 (talk) 11:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, it implies a degree of legitimacy and media noteworthiness, which itself indicates notability. This discussion was already had in regards to the 2021 Canadian federal election article, specifically on whether the PPC (which won no seats) should be included. AwesomeSaucer9 (talk) 20:18, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Does the percentage of the vote actually mean anything though? 87.75.143.188 (talk) 11:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Seat number isn't the only factors, there's also vote number. Which, SF got less than 1% of the vote, and SNP got less than 2.5% of the vote. I think the vote number threshold should be 5%. A Socialist Trans Girl 07:08, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Top three only, given that's over 600 out of 650. If you include Reform, then you have to include the SNP and DUP too. Sceptre (talk) 06:20, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Well greens should be included I think. If you include reform, you do not need to include SNP and DUP too, because they got less than 5% of the vote. A Socialist Trans Girl 07:00, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm in favour of including all nine. It would coincidentally also mean the largest nine by vote share, and have the advantages that 1) the Reform and Green surges, whilst not leading to a large seat total, were significant events, 2) the SNP decline is a major story of the election in NI, 3) Sinn Fein becoming the largest party for the first time is a significant story for the election in Northern Ireland, and 4) the minor parties in general having a larger presence is relevant.
- A nine party box is clunkier so I don't strongly oppose the three party one, but of the two nine party is my preference Chessrat (talk, contributions) 06:46, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think the issue with including 9 parties (other than it being cluttier), is the fact that if you do that, and have the threshold for inclusion be parties winning ~3 seats, then the previous articles would also have to be changed in order to be consistent. It would be odd for only this articles to include 9 parties, while all others include up to 6, typically 4 parties. In other words, if we were to have 9 parties, Gust Justice (talk) 06:54, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I hard disagree with only the top three. I think two or three rows is fine - if you look at other European countries' election pages, they frequently have 5, 6, 7 even 8. So I would be fine with up to 9. PitterPatter533 (talk) 09:27, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- This I second. I come to these pages to see the entire results, including what the small parties got in a quick glance, not for it to be hidden somewhere in the depths where I & 99% of other visitors to the page will never check. It's stupid to hide the small parties for aesthetic reasons. Election infoboxes have been ruined recently by people more concerned with "aesthetics" than their actual purpose. Fluffy89502 (talk) 17:09, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I support only top 3. The infobox can't tell the whole story of the election (that being the point of the body of the article). Including 9 is far too clunky. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 06:53, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that 9 is perhaps too much for this election, but I think top 3 is far too small. I think top 5 is reasonable. A Socialist Trans Girl 06:56, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think at this point top 6 would be better than top 5. Then both SF and DUP (the latter is now at 5 seats) would be included. Essentially like the 2017 infobox. Gust Justice (talk) 06:58, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I dont know about SF and DUP, they didn't even get 1% of the vote. A Socialist Trans Girl 07:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- SF is the fifth largest parties by number of seats. Gust Justice (talk) 07:10, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- But they got less than 1% of the vote A Socialist Trans Girl 07:52, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- SF is the fifth largest parties by number of seats. Gust Justice (talk) 07:10, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I dont know about SF and DUP, they didn't even get 1% of the vote. A Socialist Trans Girl 07:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think at this point top 6 would be better than top 5. Then both SF and DUP (the latter is now at 5 seats) would be included. Essentially like the 2017 infobox. Gust Justice (talk) 06:58, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that 9 is perhaps too much for this election, but I think top 3 is far too small. I think top 5 is reasonable. A Socialist Trans Girl 06:56, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think the threshold should be at least getting 5% of the votes. This would therefore include Labour, Libdems, Tories, Reform, and the Greens. A Socialist Trans Girl 06:53, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I would sort of prefer that too, even if such a format isn't perfect either. Gust Justice (talk) 06:56, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- This feels (admittedly cynically) manufactured to represent English parties over Northern Irish ones. The Sinn Fein lead in NI is significant, and arbitrarily creating a vote share threshold for display in the infobox for a non-proportional election, especially when reliable sources aren't doing the same, has dubious adherence to WP:OR. If more than 3 parties are shown, SNP and Sinn Fein should be included. Irltoad (talk) 08:30, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- You're right, SF's number is not insignificant. Should not only be three. PitterPatter533 (talk) 09:33, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- The 2015 United Kingdom general election infobox shows the LibDems with 8 seats, but not the DUP with the same number. I think that even if Reform's seat value is lower than some other parties, the fact their voter share is third of all parties means it would be painting an erroneous picture to simply leave them off entirely. DvcDeBlvngis (talk) 06:58, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- As well, taking into account the Reform UK–TUV alliance, the number could be counted as 5, and thus above the 4-way tie of 4 seat parties, leaving a comfortable compromise of 6 parties in the infobox. DvcDeBlvngis (talk) 07:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Reform UK–TUV alliance is not an official thing as far as I understand. Basically all media sources treat the two as separate parties for statistical purposes. Gust Justice (talk) 07:09, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- As far as I'm aware they're still mutually endorsed and TUV campaigned under a joint logo. I'm not sure how "official" it is but it seems as though they are de-facto allied electorally, and since the election infobox allows for alliances to be shown I think a case could be made, if not handled a-la Co-operative Party. Regardless, I still think showing the top 6 is the most elegant solution, what with Reform coming third in popular vote. DvcDeBlvngis (talk) 07:19, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Although Farage then kinda broke the alliance by endorsing two DUP candidates against the TUV during the campaign. Bondegezou (talk) 08:47, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- As stated on the page itself, the alliance was not dissolved[1]. DvcDeBlvngis (talk) 09:56, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Although Farage then kinda broke the alliance by endorsing two DUP candidates against the TUV during the campaign. Bondegezou (talk) 08:47, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- As far as I'm aware they're still mutually endorsed and TUV campaigned under a joint logo. I'm not sure how "official" it is but it seems as though they are de-facto allied electorally, and since the election infobox allows for alliances to be shown I think a case could be made, if not handled a-la Co-operative Party. Regardless, I still think showing the top 6 is the most elegant solution, what with Reform coming third in popular vote. DvcDeBlvngis (talk) 07:19, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Reform UK–TUV alliance is not an official thing as far as I understand. Basically all media sources treat the two as separate parties for statistical purposes. Gust Justice (talk) 07:09, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- As well, taking into account the Reform UK–TUV alliance, the number could be counted as 5, and thus above the 4-way tie of 4 seat parties, leaving a comfortable compromise of 6 parties in the infobox. DvcDeBlvngis (talk) 07:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- About 30.3% of voters this election voted for candidates other than the top 3 parties (top 3 by vote share, that is), which is highly unusual and not statistically insignificant. Back in 2019, that figure was only 12.7%, so it is definitely relevant to include all the smaller parties who've made gains (which includes LibDems) in the infobox. 675930s (talk) 11:16, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Include Greens and Reform, they won millions of votes and have parliamentary representation? Maurnxiao (talk) 13:10, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Could it potentially use a collapsed section? i.e., have 3(?) in the main part and display the next 6 in a collapsed section. I appreciate that this breaks convention, and I'm not entirely sure about the plausibility of it (I haven't played about with infoboxes enough to be sure it would look OK!) but it could provide a compromise between keeping the infobox from being cumbersome while acknowledging the relevance & importance of the changes in smaller parties like Sinn Fein, Reform, and Greens. Irltoad (talk) 13:24, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Reform UK has just been awarded its 5th seats. Now I lean towards a 3x2 infobox that includes Labour, Conservative, LibDem, SNP, Sinn Fein and Reform. I think that would be a good compromiso as we would show the parties in order as they won the seats and we can include Reform. I'm aware the Greens wouldn't be included, but I reckon it's the best we can achieve. Basque mapping (talk) 16:35, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Labour, Conservative, LibDem, SNP, Sinn Fein and Independent (7 seats) you mean? CNC (talk) 16:37, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Under the map it literally says "A map presenting the results of the election, by party of the MP elected from each constituency." The Infobox only has 4 colors now bc of "aesthetics" and there is no template on the map. HOW IS AN AVERAGE READER SUPPOSED TO KNOW WHAT PARTIES ARE THOSE OTHER COLORS NOW ?? THIS IS STUPID 😔 Fluffy89502 (talk) 17:13, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- For the record, this question is also being discussed over at the 2015 UK election article talk page. I personally am in favor of including all parties which won seats. AwesomeSaucer9 (talk) 18:28, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Not possible based on the template limit of 9, thanks for info though. CNC (talk) 18:31, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- The idea is to switch to the {{Infobox Legislative Election}} style instead. AwesomeSaucer9 (talk) 20:13, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Not possible based on the template limit of 9, thanks for info though. CNC (talk) 18:31, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- It should be a 2x3 infobox similar to the one at 2021 Canadian federal election. It's evident that Reform's 14% or vote and 5 seats shows they are a relevant party on the populist right. Greens got 7% of the vote and 4 seats so they also have relevance among the British public. The sixth party should be SNP, since while they got 9 seats it was a dismal loss compared to the past election. Having a hard-right party, green party and autonomist party would match the infobox for Canada. There is currently a discussion over the PPC's inclusion there. As of now there is no consensus and this is a party with 5% of the vote and no seats. Two of the UK parties listed above have seats in parliament and are above 5% of votes while the SNP's losses compared to 2019 are very notable. HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 18:43, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Not sure what you mean by the
"The sixth party should be SNP"
, they are the fourth party. CNC (talk) 18:50, 5 July 2024 (UTC)- I meant the sixth party to be added. I'm not sure what the order for the fourth, fifth and sixth parties should be but I know those parties should be added in some capacity HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 20:49, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Not sure what you mean by the
I ALSO THINK WE SHOULD HAVE COUNT BINFACE FIRST IN THE INFOBOX, AS HE IS THE GREATEST CANDIDATE [Humour] A Socialist Trans Girl 07:13, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- We discussed this at Talk:2024_United_Kingdom_general_election#Post-result_infobox above and broadly agreed that we have to list parties by how many seats they won. You can't put a party who came 7th in 5th place just because you feel like it: that violates WP:OR. Bondegezou (talk) 08:47, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Hi, I reverted your change, but only because it broke the infobox; I should have realised you were in the discussion already, so ignore my edit summary. Black Kite (talk) 08:48, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- He did not win a seat so possibly Reform and Greens should take priority? Maurnxiao (talk) 13:12, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
The BBC and The Guardian show Reform UK coming 7th in the election. On vote share, as shown by Sky, they came 3rd. They did not come 5th. We cannot list them as 5th in the infobox because some editors feel like it. What were some of you thinking? Bondegezou (talk) 09:45, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- The IPP of the 1918 United Kingdom general election did not come 6th either, yet are the 6th box, and the LibDems of the 2015 United Kingdom general election tied with the DUP, yet the DUP is missing. The same goes with the 1935 United Kingdom general election, as the ILP tied for seat count with the Independent Liberals, yet the latter is left off entirely. DvcDeBlvngis (talk) 09:52, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- If parties are tied on seats, it's perfectly sensible to split the tie with vote share (which is what the BBC and Guardian results for 2024 do). That's not a counter-example. I'll take a look at 1918. If it is doing something different, it is clearly an exception. The 2019, 2017 and 2015 infoboxes all follow seat order, despite the LibDems getting way more votes than the SNP. The 1951 article is another classic example: Labour got a higher vote share, but the Tories got more seats. We put the Tories first. Editors cannot just make up their own order for the infobox. Bondegezou (talk) 11:21, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- In that case, with Reform now at 5 seats — a tie with the DUP but a far greater popular vote — would they not fit into the 6th spot of a 3x2 infobox? It seems as though a compromise has made itself available as the election unfolded DvcDeBlvngis (talk) 16:36, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Independents are in 6th place with 7 seats. CNC (talk) 16:42, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Independents are, by definition, not a party. If you look at the 2020 Irish general election, despite independents being the 4th largest group by seat number, they are not in the party box, as it would be completely erroneous to group them together as they share no platform, nor party, nor any sort of unified alliance, electorally or otherwise. DvcDeBlvngis (talk) 16:48, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- That's fair enough re independents, indeed they've been left out of that example for good reason. I'm not opposed to 2x3 format, as long it features the 6 parties with the most seats. This issue being that there are two parties tied for 6th place, with no way to decide between them while retaining a NPOV. The irony being that it's an argument for adding the full 9 (which would be up to Green and Plaid Cymru), to avoid favouring including Reform or DUP for no good reason. Adding 6 would be controversial, and I think including 9 would be considered unnecessary. CNC (talk) 17:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Previous elections have handled this by breaking ties by largest voter share, a solution which, while I think can be inelegant at times, is not the absolute worst. A 3x3 would definitely be way too much, and although a 3x2 might not be the absolute ideal, it certainly comes close, and since there already is a standard set for handling the matter, I think the road ahead is as clear as can be for situations like this. DvcDeBlvngis (talk) 17:13, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- If there is already a standard for it, then no issues from me. CNC (talk) 17:16, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Previous elections have handled this by breaking ties by largest voter share, a solution which, while I think can be inelegant at times, is not the absolute worst. A 3x3 would definitely be way too much, and although a 3x2 might not be the absolute ideal, it certainly comes close, and since there already is a standard set for handling the matter, I think the road ahead is as clear as can be for situations like this. DvcDeBlvngis (talk) 17:13, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- That's fair enough re independents, indeed they've been left out of that example for good reason. I'm not opposed to 2x3 format, as long it features the 6 parties with the most seats. This issue being that there are two parties tied for 6th place, with no way to decide between them while retaining a NPOV. The irony being that it's an argument for adding the full 9 (which would be up to Green and Plaid Cymru), to avoid favouring including Reform or DUP for no good reason. Adding 6 would be controversial, and I think including 9 would be considered unnecessary. CNC (talk) 17:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Independents are, by definition, not a party. If you look at the 2020 Irish general election, despite independents being the 4th largest group by seat number, they are not in the party box, as it would be completely erroneous to group them together as they share no platform, nor party, nor any sort of unified alliance, electorally or otherwise. DvcDeBlvngis (talk) 16:48, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Independents are in 6th place with 7 seats. CNC (talk) 16:42, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- In that case, with Reform now at 5 seats — a tie with the DUP but a far greater popular vote — would they not fit into the 6th spot of a 3x2 infobox? It seems as though a compromise has made itself available as the election unfolded DvcDeBlvngis (talk) 16:36, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- If parties are tied on seats, it's perfectly sensible to split the tie with vote share (which is what the BBC and Guardian results for 2024 do). That's not a counter-example. I'll take a look at 1918. If it is doing something different, it is clearly an exception. The 2019, 2017 and 2015 infoboxes all follow seat order, despite the LibDems getting way more votes than the SNP. The 1951 article is another classic example: Labour got a higher vote share, but the Tories got more seats. We put the Tories first. Editors cannot just make up their own order for the infobox. Bondegezou (talk) 11:21, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- The infobox, right now, include significantly less information that it should. Why not have six parties? Then you can include SNP, Reform, and Greens.
- I came here to check the seat and vote share differences from 2019 for all the parties, and I can't do that very easily now, because only 3 parties are in the infobox.
- I don't care about "getting Farage's mugshot in the infobox". (although SNP losses and Reform gains are huge stories from this election - Reform destroyed the Conservatives and the SNP self-destructed). JM (talk) 14:59, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- What makes you think Reform would be added with (currently) 4 seats, over the 6 parties who have more? I thought it should go without saying that out of say 6 parties in the infobox, you pick those with the most seats. If it was a section over vote share, or analysis, then granted, Reform would be right up there. There seems to be a general confusion over what is WP:DUE in the infobox. It's not based on % of votes, as this isn't what the election is about, it's only ever about seats gained to remain NPOV. CNC (talk) 15:04, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- At the time I made the comment I believed Reform was in the top 6 because I neglected Northern Ireland. JM (talk) 15:51, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Fair enough. Per comments below, I've added SNP and changed to 2/2 per row format with this edit [2]. I think it gives necessary room to the lead which is fast expanding, hopefully others will agree with the change. CNC (talk) 16:07, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- If I may, why not use a criterion of 5% of the vote or more? It seems undue to include parties which only won a handful of seats, but Reform and the Greens won a non-insignificant amount of votes despite only winning 4 seats each so it seems reasonable to me at least that they both would be included if only due to their vote share being higher than that of the SNP, which is included in the infobox. Talthiel (talk) 16:16, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Simply because this isn't the format of these articles infoboxes, for good reason. Look back over all of the previous articles and the parties with the most seats are included, because that is how the election is decided. As someone explained below, it would be highly misleading to suggest that other parties are more notable and therefore due in the infobox based on their vote share. To suggest 5% or over would effectively be swapping SNP with Reform and Greens that won less seats than SNP as well as SF. Personally I'm shocked over what appears to be a basic lack of understandings of how this articles infobox works. We shouldn't be debating "Is Reform more relevant in the infobox", "let's exclude parties that didn't field candidates in all countries", or otherwise, when the "choice" of parties included in the infobox shouldn't be up for debate, the election itself has decided that for us. The only debate should be whether it includes 3, 4, 6, or more parties, based on seats gained. CNC (talk) 16:27, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Talthiel Because that would mislead the casual reader. Other election article infobox do not take the approach of excluding parties with more seats in favour of parties with fewer seats but more votes. The results are the results. We can't make up arbitrary rules: see WP:OR. Bondegezou (talk) 16:33, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I never said to exclude other parties, in mentioning the 5% rule, but that it could be an additional pre-requisite to be included in the infobox. Reform would be, if included, listed after the SNP because they only won 5 seats while the SNP won 9.
- And additionally, in first past the post elections, national seat counts don't really matter, which is why parties with more votes but fewer seats, are not placed before parties which win more seats but less votes (see such examples as the 1951 United Kingdom general election, where Labour won more votes but was listed 2nd in the infobox because they won the 2nd most seats. Legislative elections are sorted first and foremost by seat totals. As others have said, the infobox is supposed to summarize, not detail, the key parts of an election. @CommunityNotesContributor & @Bondegezou, it does not violate WP:OR, see the 1993 Canadian federal election , 2021 Canadian federal election, 1940 Canadian federal election, 2012 Wisconsin State Assembly election and others for how parties such as Reform, the DUP, or the Greens, or others too if preferred, could be displayed in the infobox in ways that do not violate any WP policies, norms, or precedents Talthiel (talk) 17:19, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- That's fair enough, and you're speaking my language with your rationale. I think I misunderstood when you said >5%, whereas if you had said >5 seats I wouldn't have objected as I did. Ultimately I'm not opposed to a 2x3 format, similar to 2017 United Kingdom general election, even if I think 2x2 is a slicker format. CNC (talk) 17:40, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- If parties are to be listed in the infobox I think it should be Labour (412/11), Conservative (121), LibDem (71), SNP (9), Reform (5), DUP (5), and perhaps the Greens too (4). Ideally the infobox would have a max of 6 candidates without being too bloated. I also feel Sinn Fein could be excluded because they abstain from voting or taking their seats in parliament and their bloc doesn't count towards the majority of seats needed to form a government. Another big conundrum though is that the infobox, with the parties I listed, would have 7 parties, whereas 6 seems to be the ideal maximum, so one of the parties would have to not be included. @CommunityNotesContributor Talthiel (talk) 17:52, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Again, this comes back to the POV arguments such as "SF doesn't count", despite being included in the 2017 election article as expected. There is already pretty clear opposition below that excluding parties based on A, B and C reasons is unacceptable and breach of NPOV (see further discussion below on this re excluding NI). Respectfully, let's move forward to where the consensus lies; that of including parties with most seats. The only question is how many (3/4/6/9). What we think might "look better" in the infobox is irrelevant to what we are able to include, which is purely based on seat count and quantity of entities as explained. CNC (talk) 18:05, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, what SF does with their seats or not, the size of their party or number of candidates, is completely irrelevant to the results of the election. I think this is what some people are misunderstanding here. This article isn't about representation, it's purely based on the results of the election. CNC (talk) 18:07, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- If parties are to be listed in the infobox I think it should be Labour (412/11), Conservative (121), LibDem (71), SNP (9), Reform (5), DUP (5), and perhaps the Greens too (4). Ideally the infobox would have a max of 6 candidates without being too bloated. I also feel Sinn Fein could be excluded because they abstain from voting or taking their seats in parliament and their bloc doesn't count towards the majority of seats needed to form a government. Another big conundrum though is that the infobox, with the parties I listed, would have 7 parties, whereas 6 seems to be the ideal maximum, so one of the parties would have to not be included. @CommunityNotesContributor Talthiel (talk) 17:52, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- That's fair enough, and you're speaking my language with your rationale. I think I misunderstood when you said >5%, whereas if you had said >5 seats I wouldn't have objected as I did. Ultimately I'm not opposed to a 2x3 format, similar to 2017 United Kingdom general election, even if I think 2x2 is a slicker format. CNC (talk) 17:40, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- At the time I made the comment I believed Reform was in the top 6 because I neglected Northern Ireland. JM (talk) 15:51, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- What makes you think Reform would be added with (currently) 4 seats, over the 6 parties who have more? I thought it should go without saying that out of say 6 parties in the infobox, you pick those with the most seats. If it was a section over vote share, or analysis, then granted, Reform would be right up there. There seems to be a general confusion over what is WP:DUE in the infobox. It's not based on % of votes, as this isn't what the election is about, it's only ever about seats gained to remain NPOV. CNC (talk) 15:04, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Criteria pre-2015 was to include Lab, Con and LDs because of the sheer amount of seats these three had. Issues arose for 2015, 2017 and 2019 because of the LD collapse and the SNP surge, but situation has now reverted to three parties collecting the vast majority of seats. There is little reason for including the SNP (9) and not Sinn Féin (7) and Reform (5), and if we include these, then the situation previous to 2015 should be reviewed as well for consistency's sake. Impru20talk 18:12, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- As the editor who made that addition, I hear what you're saying. The relevance is that SNP lost 38 seats, while Lib Dems gained 63, in order to become the 3rd largest party (again). The seat change seems significant in itself, in order to document the collapse. Bare in mind that 2019 the Lib Dems only had 11 seats post-collapse, which was also documented, even though insigificant. If the argument is to exclude SNP because of only having 9 seats, then Lib Dems shouldn't have been included in the 2019 article either. CNC (talk) 18:19, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Losing seats should not be by itself a criterion for infobox inclusion. It can be if you have room for more parties, but you are basically reconfiguring the infobox's design (from 3x1 to 2x2) and altering long-standing practice to fit a party having 9 seats when the one before it has 71. For 2019 there was a specific consensus, but it's worth reminding that 1) it was not the seat loss (just 1), but the vote share (>10%, compared to SNP's 2.5% here) that did the deal, 2) both the third and fourth parties were in the double digits (48 to 11) which is not the case here (71 to 9), 3) the seat difference here is too extreme. Impru20talk 18:33, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Again, that's understandable, appreciate the context. It seems clear this article will need to be craft it's own specific consensus on this issue, as at present arguments include 1x3, 2x2, and 2x3. Bare in mind Reform's >10% vote share could seal the deal for a 2x3 format, combined with the SNP seat loss. This sounds like the identical conditions. CNC (talk) 18:43, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Forgot to ask, do you know what the "specific consensus" was for 2017 to include 2x3, similar to what editors are suggesting here? I'd appreciated links to these consensus decisions if possible. Thanks in advance. CNC (talk) 18:55, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see why the context would require a party with 9 seats and 2.5% of the vote being put together with three parties the smallest of which has 71 seats and 12% of the vote (that's basically close to WP:UNDUE). If you include SNP, it's impossible not to include SF and Reform at the very least, and you would be opening a true can of worms there. Let me counsel you to read all of the discussions on the previous four UK elections' talk pages, related to infobox inclusion criteria (specially regarding UKIP in 2015 and Reform in 2024). With the current 2024 results, the 1x3 solution is the one that would attain the most consensus (or, at the very least, would cause the less disturbance).
- On 2017, if I recall it correctly the consensus was like that because it was a hung parliament and DUP was decisive in securing the majority for May. Impru20talk 18:57, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for counsel, still waiting for the links to such discussions. CNC (talk) 19:02, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Well, you can check it yourself (as I typically do when others point me out to such consensuses). It's public! It'll also useful for you to read all of it (several discussions took place across several years) since you seem new to UK election articles. It's you the one aiming to change previously-established consensus, remember ;) Impru20talk 19:16, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Ideally for an RfC these discussions which led to consensus would be presented. Otherwise people (such as myself) might be !voting without being aware of previous decisions that have been made regarding these topics. As you said, it'd be useful for me to read, as well as others for a more informed opinion. CNC (talk) 19:32, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Excuse me, I missed the part in which you were not able to get aware by yourself on the discussions pertaining infoboxes. I comprehend some help is always welcome, let me instruct you, look:
- Check Talk:2015 United Kingdom general election, Talk:2017 United Kingdom general election and Talk:2019 United Kingdom general election.
- Look for the "Search archives" field.
- Type "infobox" in.
- A whole world of possibilities opens up to you.
- There are many discussions and RfCs, so cherry-picking which ones you should read is not something I think I should do. It may take a while for you to read all of it, but context is important on such a revisited issue! Impru20talk 19:38, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- You're missing my point. If this comes to an RfC, that seems quite likely, then it would be in the interest of those who have more experience in these topics to provide the relevant discussions of consensus to those with less experience. As you said, context is important, such as discussing an article so closely related and in connection to others. I'm aware of how to search archives, thanks, but I'm not going to spend hours searching through them for relevant discussions, and I guarantee others won't either. Those who have been engaged in these topics for longer should be able to reference these relevant discussions with ease, as editors who have already followed and participated in such discussions. I have nothing to lose from not reading those discussions, and without older editors providing these references, I'm simply assume they don't exist. No offence, but this is 101 of consensus building: provide the list of previous discussions. CNC (talk) 19:47, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- On the people with experience, I think Bondegezou (among others) can help out with this as one of the most stable editors pertaining UK elections. They may also brief you on the overall consensus reached for the infoboxes of these articles.
- Nonetheless, 1)
I'm not going to spend hours searching through them for relevant discussions, and I guarantee others won't either.
Well, that's not my issue. The discussions exist and the consensus is there; it's you wanting to possibly alter such consensus, so the onus is on you to argue for the change and to know what the previous consensus was. "I'm not gonna do that" does not seem like a good argument to me; 2)I'm simply assume they don't exist. No offence, but this is 101 of consensus building: provide the list of previous discussions.
- I can do exactly the same as you are able to: search for the discussions. The list is not exhaustive as I may have missed something, but hopefully you may get the picture:
- These pertain to the 2015 election, but are listed in the 2017 article talk page because someone messed it up when moving the article or something:
- Talk:2017 United Kingdom general election/Archive 2#So, are we adding UKIP to the infobox or not?
- Talk:2017 United Kingdom general election/Archive 2#I've added UKIP
- Talk:2017 United Kingdom general election/Archive 2#Infobox inclusion criteria
- Talk:2017 United Kingdom general election/Archive 2#RFC on UKIP
- Talk:2017 United Kingdom general election/Archive 2#No infobox, no problem
- Talk:2017 United Kingdom general election/Archive 2#UKIP - some logic to this in the current circumstances
- Talk:2017 United Kingdom general election/Archive 3#Infobox
- Talk:2017 United Kingdom general election/Archive 3#Infobox 2
- 2015 election proper:
- Talk:2015 United Kingdom general election/Archive 2#SNP_added to Infobox
- Talk:2015 United Kingdom general election/Archive 2#Adding UKIP to the info box
- Talk:2015 United Kingdom general election/Archive 3#New infobox proposal
- Talk:2015 United Kingdom general election/Archive 4#Post-election infobox
- Talk:2015 United Kingdom general election/Archive 4#"4th largest party"
- Talk:2015 United Kingdom general election/Archive 4#Infobox: perspective from a neutral third party
- Talk:2015 United Kingdom general election/Archive 4#"Fourth Party"?
- Talk:2015 United Kingdom general election/Archive 4#Infobox again (again)
- Talk:2015 United Kingdom general election/Archive 5#Lead infobox
- Talk:2015 United Kingdom general election/Archive 7#Request for Comment: Which Infobox? (Choice of Two)
- Talk:2015 United Kingdom general election#UKIP?
- 2017 election:
- Talk:2017 United Kingdom general election/Archive 3#Infobox 3
- Talk:2017 United Kingdom general election/Archive 3#Infobox consensus
- Talk:2017 United Kingdom general election/Archive 4#Infobox for forthcoming election vs past election
- Talk:2017 United Kingdom general election/Archive 5#Infobox consensus 2017
- Talk:2017 United Kingdom general election#Remove the Northern Irish Parties from the infobox
- 2019 election:
- Talk:2019 United Kingdom general election/Archive 2#Infobox edit-warring
- Talk:2019 United Kingdom general election/Archive 3#RfC about the infobox
- Talk:2019 United Kingdom general election/Archive 3#Infobox, part 2
- Talk:2019 United_Kingdom general election/Archive 3#Infobox, part 3
- Talk:2019 United Kingdom general election/Archive 6#Massive infobox
- 2024 election:
- These pertain to the 2015 election, but are listed in the 2017 article talk page because someone messed it up when moving the article or something:
- Impru20talk 20:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- You're missing my point. If this comes to an RfC, that seems quite likely, then it would be in the interest of those who have more experience in these topics to provide the relevant discussions of consensus to those with less experience. As you said, context is important, such as discussing an article so closely related and in connection to others. I'm aware of how to search archives, thanks, but I'm not going to spend hours searching through them for relevant discussions, and I guarantee others won't either. Those who have been engaged in these topics for longer should be able to reference these relevant discussions with ease, as editors who have already followed and participated in such discussions. I have nothing to lose from not reading those discussions, and without older editors providing these references, I'm simply assume they don't exist. No offence, but this is 101 of consensus building: provide the list of previous discussions. CNC (talk) 19:47, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Excuse me, I missed the part in which you were not able to get aware by yourself on the discussions pertaining infoboxes. I comprehend some help is always welcome, let me instruct you, look:
- Ideally for an RfC these discussions which led to consensus would be presented. Otherwise people (such as myself) might be !voting without being aware of previous decisions that have been made regarding these topics. As you said, it'd be useful for me to read, as well as others for a more informed opinion. CNC (talk) 19:32, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Well, you can check it yourself (as I typically do when others point me out to such consensuses). It's public! It'll also useful for you to read all of it (several discussions took place across several years) since you seem new to UK election articles. It's you the one aiming to change previously-established consensus, remember ;) Impru20talk 19:16, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Understandable, but it does bear noting that the Reform vote split played a huge role in the Tories' massive loss, with as many as 166 of the 244 Tory losses to some extent attributable to Reform's surge. With more than 14% of the vote and 5 seats - solidly in sixth place, and without a tie in seat count to complicate matters - I think it is a good idea to have them be placed on a 3-by-2 grid, alongside SNP and Sinn Féin, both of which have more seats but far less of a voter base. DemocracyDeprivationDisorder (talk) 11:19, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Double-checked my own reply. Yes the DUP tied in vote count with Reform, but their vote share is far lower and thus there's no need to open a third row with the DUP. DemocracyDeprivationDisorder (talk) 11:25, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for counsel, still waiting for the links to such discussions. CNC (talk) 19:02, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Losing seats should not be by itself a criterion for infobox inclusion. It can be if you have room for more parties, but you are basically reconfiguring the infobox's design (from 3x1 to 2x2) and altering long-standing practice to fit a party having 9 seats when the one before it has 71. For 2019 there was a specific consensus, but it's worth reminding that 1) it was not the seat loss (just 1), but the vote share (>10%, compared to SNP's 2.5% here) that did the deal, 2) both the third and fourth parties were in the double digits (48 to 11) which is not the case here (71 to 9), 3) the seat difference here is too extreme. Impru20talk 18:33, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- While I can agree with the rationale behind including the three largest parties, I think the best option is to include the six largest ones because 1) It's important to show the collapse of the SNP 2) Reform UK is one of the important players this election, right now they are on levels of the Liberal Party in the early post-war, so they deserve inclusion just as them.
- Yo have pointed out that were we to include six parties we should review pre-2015 infoboxes. I don't think so, that would mean including the early micro-SNP and the NI parties, which I think is not necessary. This election has been atypical and that's why we should include more parties than usual, including SF is just a side effect in order not to break the rule. Basque mapping (talk) 18:44, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Atypical in which sense? 2015 was atypical. 2017 and 2019 were, too. What's the difference between 2024 and 1997, for instance? There you had UUP at 10 seats, SNP at 6, PC at 4... in fact, the third party got 46 seats (it currently has 71) and the fourth party 10 (9 now). Yes, reviewing the criteria for this election would mean to review them for these as well; except for Reform's 4 million votes, we have basically returned to the pre-2015 situation. Impru20talk 18:57, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Looks like 2015 with a huge loss for one particular party, and a huge gain for another. CNC (talk) 19:22, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Not the same: fourth party in 2015 had 2.4 million votes. It was not a matter of gains or losses. I'm attempting to take you seriously, CNC; please, do the same with me. Impru20talk 19:32, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not particularly arguing for a 2x2 format here, as I agree despite the Lib Dem loss, the vote share % isn't very significant (that's me taking you seriously and not reverting your changes). The Reform vote with 4 million votes does appear significant in combination with the Lib Dem loss, similar to 2019 election (4 million votes, >10%). CNC (talk) 19:39, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- On this note: I agree with you that 4 million votes is significant. In fact (should you check past discussions on UK infoboxes, as recently as the past month) you'd see that my position is actually in favour of adding parties with such a tremendous amount of popular votes. But:
- 1) You should first consider what the actual consensus for UK election articles is, and that is to arrange parties by seats. Doing this on solely this criterion would mean that parties such as SF (which practises abstentionism and does not take its seats) are given more prominence in infoboxes that UKIP on 2015 or Reform in 2024 (which attracted large media attention and their results countrywide affected the outcome of dozens if not hundreds of seats), which would fall closely under WP:UNDUE). Con, Lab, SNP, LD was the version for which consensus was achieved in 2015 (an election with two strong national parties, a strong regional one and a third national party that was mauled but still scored fourth); similarly to 2017 (which ended up being 3x3 because of it being a hung parliament and the fifth party having a strong role in government formation and support) and 2019 basically using the same scheme as 2015. 2024 is returning to the pre-2015 status, i.e. three strong national parties, no strong regional party, no hung parliament dependant on a fourth or fifth or seventh party.
- 2) This is a contentious issue. Not because I want it to be, but because it has been for over a decade, with many edit warrings and many editors involved through time. I agree with you in many points (really), but I am also respectful of past consensus and of long-achieved equilibrium. My aim is for infoboxes to be as representative as possible of the elections they aim to represent without the equilibrium being broken. I am also of the thought that each time an election happens, we tend to think that it is a blank check, but that may not be the case: past consensuses may exist, some issues may have been already addressed or visited before, etc.
- 3) This does not mean that consensus cannot change. As you said,
WP:CON should be encouraged to be built, not deterred because previous consensus exists
. But: consensus must be coherent, or you may end up re-opening a can of worms on an issue which (as I have said) is and has been contentious. As I told you, it has been years of talk page discussions and RfCs which are there for anyone willing to go and calmly read these. From there: consensus can change, but it cannot just be "forgotten". - I am acting on good faith here. I assume you do, too; that is why I am taking my time to explain this throughly to you. Impru20talk 20:08, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not particularly arguing for a 2x2 format here, as I agree despite the Lib Dem loss, the vote share % isn't very significant (that's me taking you seriously and not reverting your changes). The Reform vote with 4 million votes does appear significant in combination with the Lib Dem loss, similar to 2019 election (4 million votes, >10%). CNC (talk) 19:39, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Not the same: fourth party in 2015 had 2.4 million votes. It was not a matter of gains or losses. I'm attempting to take you seriously, CNC; please, do the same with me. Impru20talk 19:32, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Looks like 2015 with a huge loss for one particular party, and a huge gain for another. CNC (talk) 19:22, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Atypical in which sense? 2015 was atypical. 2017 and 2019 were, too. What's the difference between 2024 and 1997, for instance? There you had UUP at 10 seats, SNP at 6, PC at 4... in fact, the third party got 46 seats (it currently has 71) and the fourth party 10 (9 now). Yes, reviewing the criteria for this election would mean to review them for these as well; except for Reform's 4 million votes, we have basically returned to the pre-2015 situation. Impru20talk 18:57, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- As the editor who made that addition, I hear what you're saying. The relevance is that SNP lost 38 seats, while Lib Dems gained 63, in order to become the 3rd largest party (again). The seat change seems significant in itself, in order to document the collapse. Bare in mind that 2019 the Lib Dems only had 11 seats post-collapse, which was also documented, even though insigificant. If the argument is to exclude SNP because of only having 9 seats, then Lib Dems shouldn't have been included in the 2019 article either. CNC (talk) 18:19, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Surely too many photos in table?
Why not cap at 5 seats or more?
UK election tables don't necessarily concentrate on vote share (UKIP in 2015 is absent, for example).
Having this many profiles just makes it look cluttered. Mythlike-Cell (talk) 07:10, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Why not just add UKIP to 2015 then? A Socialist Trans Girl 07:16, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Your terms are agreeable
— Czello (music) 07:20, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Your terms are agreeable
- I recommend removing the Irish parties as NI tends to be its "own thing" in elections. — Czello (music) 07:20, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Regional parties that didn't contest seats in all countries of the UK ought to be removed, in my opinion. Collorizador (talk) 07:26, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- But SNP has been included since 2015 A Socialist Trans Girl 07:30, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- SNP could be a possible exception due to its outsized impact on politics. NI parties should definitely be moved, though. Collorizador (talk) 07:31, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, I also dont think plaid should be shown either A Socialist Trans Girl 07:35, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- The outsized impact of having a grand total of 9 seats? Maurnxiao (talk) 09:49, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- The impact of being the party with the 4th most seats, while losing 38. CNC (talk) 15:54, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- And that makes them more notable than Reform which stands candidates nationwide and not just in Scotland? Maurnxiao (talk) 20:32, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, based on the concept of the election. CNC (talk) 21:00, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- And that makes them more notable than Reform which stands candidates nationwide and not just in Scotland? Maurnxiao (talk) 20:32, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- The impact of being the party with the 4th most seats, while losing 38. CNC (talk) 15:54, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- SNP could be a possible exception due to its outsized impact on politics. NI parties should definitely be moved, though. Collorizador (talk) 07:31, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I do agree with this in principle, but I think an exception should be made for the SNP. Their seats plummeting is pretty notable and one of the defining things to come out of this election. — Czello (music) 07:30, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- They were also the third largest party at the last election. It's probably important to inclde them for that reason Eastwood Park and strabane (talk) 07:31, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed, a top 6 sans NI is a good way to handle things. DvcDeBlvngis (talk) 07:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed. That would give a full picture of the vote. River10000 (talk) 17:00, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Would do you mean excluding NI? The 7 parties with the most seats is pretty clear cut so far, notably the tie for 6th place. We can't just cut a party out because they aren't based in England, that's POV to the extreme. CNC (talk) 17:08, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed, a top 6 sans NI is a good way to handle things. DvcDeBlvngis (talk) 07:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I agree A Socialist Trans Girl 07:37, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- They were also the third largest party at the last election. It's probably important to inclde them for that reason Eastwood Park and strabane (talk) 07:31, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- But SNP has been included since 2015 A Socialist Trans Girl 07:30, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- UKIP not being in 2015 with 12.6% of the vote is egregious and Reform should absolutely be here. They have been a focal part of this campaign, won a huge share of the vote, and have received substantial media attention. Maurnxiao (talk) 09:37, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Election infoboxes follow the order of how many seats were won. It would be highly misleading to deviate from that. We broadly agreed that higher up on this Talk page. Bondegezou (talk) 08:50, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Why does 2015 United Kingdom general election not include the DUP's 8 seats, the same as the LibDems? Why does 1935 United Kingdom general election have the ILP, but not the Independent Liberals? Why does 1918 United Kingdom general election have the IPP but not the NDP? Clearly, the standard here is not the raw numbers of seats with no other factors accounted into it. DvcDeBlvngis (talk) 09:18, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- The appearance of Reform with more than 14% of the vote, even if it only translates to 4 seats (and a fifth with their pact with TUV) warrants their inclusion at minimum. Reform UK is a major reason why a lot of the seats flipped from the Tories to Labour, and it would be a failure to show the political reality should we refuse to include them in the infobox. I would endorse either the six-party without NI, or the nine-party model. DemocracyDeprivationDisorder (talk) 09:24, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- It is indeed strange not to include parties with substantial amounts of seats. And if nothing else, I will say, a 2x2 box just looks weird. PitterPatter533 (talk) 09:37, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Excluding Northern Ireland violates WP:NPOV. Those seats have exactly the same status in Parliament as every other seat. Bondegezou (talk) 08:50, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed. Either we just have the three parties who won >10 seats (or four including the SNP), or we have all nine. Choosing those six is illogical. Black Kite (talk) 09:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- To add to this, BBC and other websites depict the Northern Irish parties the same way it depicts all other parties. If we decide seats (not vote share) is decisive for the inclusion of parties in the infobox, then it would not reflect what sources say to exclude SF and DUP on the basis of only winning seats in Northern Ireland. Gust Justice (talk) 09:28, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see a problem with including nine parties. Excluding Reform feels wrong--they played spoiler in numerous constituencies, there's a significant swing to them and away from the Conservatives. A major emerging narrative for this election appears to be the growth of smaller parties at the expense of the two major parties. The infobox ought to acknowledge that. Mackensen (talk) 12:55, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Now that Reform have caught up with SF, the argument is resurfacing again 🙄 If we end up with a 2x3 infobox, there will be a clear conflict between those who want Reform included and those that want SF included. Recipe for disaster. CNC (talk) 17:12, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Reform UK deserves to be in the infobox. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 13:06, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
So far, between what's been said in the first section of this thread and the second subsection (can we all try and talk in the one section?), the emerging consensus is that at least Reform should be included in the infobox. There doesn't yet seem to be a consensus yet what to do about the SNP, the Greens, the Northern Irish parties or Plaid Cymru. I personally would suggest also including the SNP. CeltBrowne (talk) 14:29, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Looking at previous election articles, I think the 2/2 perrow format (2015 and 2019) is much better than the 3/3 perrow format (2017) that his simply too wide and dominating, and doesn't fit well into the infobox. In this case, the 4 parties (2/2) listed should be the ones with the most seats; Labour, Conservative, Lib Dems and SNP. I'm not convinced adding parties with 5 and 7 seats is worthwhile for 3/3 format to be worthwhile. Also arguably, despite SNP only getting 9 seats, the decline of 37 seems very significant. CNC (talk) 14:46, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Also surely we should be adding SF and DUP prior to Reform, Green and PC, simply based on seats gained? This is why I'm not convinced about adding anyone of them and just stick with the top 4 for convenient formatting. CNC (talk) 14:48, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- For finding the results easily, we surely need all the national parties which got people elected, or else a table to go with the map showing the results graphically. People must be going there to find the total of votes for Greens, Reform, SNP, PC, and a few others and then searching the article – im my case without success. Moonraker (talk) 15:47, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Technically not possible, the infobox only allows for 9 parties in total (3 rows of 3). CNC (talk) 15:52, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- There also exists the {{Infobox Legislative Election}} option. AwesomeSaucer9 (talk) 20:30, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Technically not possible, the infobox only allows for 9 parties in total (3 rows of 3). CNC (talk) 15:52, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think there needs to be a like RFC for this topic, as there's several opened threads on this very topic Talthiel (talk) 17:04, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Might be worth making a bold first and the change to 2x3, then see if anyone opposes the change. Since Reform got 5 seats I haven't seen any opposition for such a change (as long as it's not removing any parties with more seats). I was initially concerned over the idea of including Reform over DUP when they both have 5 seats, but apparently there is a precedent for this. CNC (talk) 17:44, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- There already exists one at this link. I am hesitant to redirect people here for now but if we believe it's the best path forward we can do so. AwesomeSaucer9 (talk) 20:25, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Now that Reform have won 5 seats, a 2 row 3 column table of parties works well, ordered by seat total (with Reform beating the DUP to 6th place by popular vote share as a tiebreaker). It's the neatest and smallest table that still communicates the really important role of Reform this election. As much as I personally dislike them, you can't understand this election without understanding Reform's vote count and its role in spoiling seats against the Conservatives.
- Table would therefore go Lab -> Con -> LD -> SNP -> SF -> Ref.
- However I do think that if we can't agree immediately and clearly on this solution, we need an RFC just to make sure the discussion is clearly signposted and understood. Sparkledriver (talk) 17:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah. Either this or a 2x2 or a 1x3. Anything that can have an actual consensus by this point, honestly. River10000 (talk) 18:22, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Based on recent revert, [3], I now agree. Ideally we can specify what the included parties would be, as some editors still believe we can exclude parties for certain reasons, rather than including parties based purely on number of seats. Ie:
- 1x3: Labour, Conservative, Lib Dems
- 2x2: Labour, Conservatives, Lib Dems, SNP
- 2x3: Labour, Conservatives, Lib Dems, SNP, SF, Reform*
- 3x3: Labour, Conservatives, Lib Dems, SNP, SF, Reform, DUP, Green, PC
- Those are the realistic options, at least those proposed in these discussions.
- *Based on a TIE, then Reform would be included over DUP based on % of vote share CNC (talk) 18:29, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Based on recent revert, [3], I now agree. Ideally we can specify what the included parties would be, as some editors still believe we can exclude parties for certain reasons, rather than including parties based purely on number of seats. Ie:
- Definitely in favor of a 2x3 personally, showcasing the top 6 parties while covering as many of the major takeaways as possible without oversizing; if push did come to shove however, I would rather err on the side of oversizing with a 3x3 or something of the like than a 2x2 or 1x3, both of which really fail to convey much of the actual details at all DvcDeBlvngis (talk) 18:32, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- 1x3: Lab, Con, LDs. If we add more, then we should revisit all elections previous to 2015 since some of these mirror the situation we see here (2010, 2005, 1997...). It would essentially mean a change of long-established consensus and of consistency, since there are no particular seat-wise situations pertaining to this election that are substantially different to any previous election. Impru20talk 19:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Revisionism can occur later if further consensus is established. If consensus was established for a 2x3 format, then it wouldn't resptrospecively apply to all other articles, based on an RfC on this article. Unless the RfC was centralized and based on all election articles past and present, which isn't necessary, consensus on this article would have no effect on previous articles. WP:CON should be encouraged to be built, not deterred because previous consensus exists. CNC (talk) 19:10, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- If consensus was established for a 2x3 format based on situation X happening, you cannot argue that such format should not be applied to the same situation X happening elsewhere. You know why? Because it will lead to conflict between this article and the others, and people will raise such conflict (eventually leading to potential edit wars). Yes, this has happened before in UK election articles (and you are free to calmly check all the past discussions on the issue). So yes, if other articles have the same situation happening, then a collective discussion for situation X should happen and affect all articles involved. Cherrypicking articles just because you happened to come across one is not a good take, actually; editors should be aware that if a consensus is reached here, it could (and probably should) be applied in those cases where a similar situation is happening. Impru20talk 19:21, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- You can easily argue that such formats don't apply to other articles, as you have pointed out numerous times; elections are different, and that's why there have been different formats, such as pre-2015 and post-2015. Fear of change is not a good argument here, though you're obviously welcome to your opinion and future !vote. CNC (talk) 19:29, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- And I can easily argue that there is no reason for elections sharing similar features to be depicted using different standards. Of course, you were bold and added your infobox proposal despite many people agreeing to the 1x3 version in this discussion, and as you said you were free to be contested (which you were). You are obviously welcome to your opinion and future !vote too, as we all contribute to Wikipedia in equal conditions :) Impru20talk 19:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- How about:
- 2x3: Labour, Conservatives, Lib Dems, SNP, Reform, DUP
- I think a reasonable case can be made to exclude Sinn Féin as they don't take their seats in Westminster. Boardwalk.Koi (talk) 20:23, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- See above about excluding NI. This article is about the election results, it has nothing to do with representation in Westminster. I can't believe this suggestion keeps reappearing. CNC (talk) 20:31, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- It would make no sense to exclude SF but have DUP in. But if anything, both SF and DUP have little relevance in the overall picture of the election (I again point out to the fact that the only instance they where added was 2017, and because they were actually relevant following the May-DUP agreement). I would rather keep my preference for the 1x3 option (Lab, Con, LDs) on the current results. Impru20talk 21:55, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Regardless of whether they actually take their seats, they won election. This article is on the election, not the parliament that followed it SecretName101 (talk) 00:51, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- See above about excluding NI. This article is about the election results, it has nothing to do with representation in Westminster. I can't believe this suggestion keeps reappearing. CNC (talk) 20:31, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- How about:
- And I can easily argue that there is no reason for elections sharing similar features to be depicted using different standards. Of course, you were bold and added your infobox proposal despite many people agreeing to the 1x3 version in this discussion, and as you said you were free to be contested (which you were). You are obviously welcome to your opinion and future !vote too, as we all contribute to Wikipedia in equal conditions :) Impru20talk 19:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- You can easily argue that such formats don't apply to other articles, as you have pointed out numerous times; elections are different, and that's why there have been different formats, such as pre-2015 and post-2015. Fear of change is not a good argument here, though you're obviously welcome to your opinion and future !vote. CNC (talk) 19:29, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- If consensus was established for a 2x3 format based on situation X happening, you cannot argue that such format should not be applied to the same situation X happening elsewhere. You know why? Because it will lead to conflict between this article and the others, and people will raise such conflict (eventually leading to potential edit wars). Yes, this has happened before in UK election articles (and you are free to calmly check all the past discussions on the issue). So yes, if other articles have the same situation happening, then a collective discussion for situation X should happen and affect all articles involved. Cherrypicking articles just because you happened to come across one is not a good take, actually; editors should be aware that if a consensus is reached here, it could (and probably should) be applied in those cases where a similar situation is happening. Impru20talk 19:21, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- As discussion around this very topic is happening for the 2015 article, it is fair to say that there is indeed a hunger to revisit the old articles too. AwesomeSaucer9 (talk) 21:02, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Then it should! What I argue is that it doesn't make sense to apply one set of criteria for one article and another wholly different set for other articles. These should be 1) similar criteria under similar situations & 2) consistent, recognizable criteria even on non-similar situations. Impru20talk 23:13, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- This is why there's an RfC on this topic, which I think it might make sense to redirect people here towards. AwesomeSaucer9 (talk) 05:07, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- We have an RfC on this topic? Where? Impru20talk 08:04, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- At this page. AwesomeSaucer9 (talk) 19:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oh, then probably should get more notice because it is a relevant topic and I see very few people involved there... I myself did not become aware of this until now. Also, it's even active?
For now I think we can leave this RfC relatively dormant and keep discussion on the 2015 UK page.
message from you there two days ago. Impru20talk 19:51, 6 July 2024 (UTC)- There was a bit of pushback, as you can see, from editors who are more active on the 2015 page, since we weren't able to really come up with any constructive solutions or bullet-point options to end the debate. I still don't know if we can do that - if we can, then I absolutely think we should go back to the RfC. AwesomeSaucer9 (talk) 23:39, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oh, then probably should get more notice because it is a relevant topic and I see very few people involved there... I myself did not become aware of this until now. Also, it's even active?
- At this page. AwesomeSaucer9 (talk) 19:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- We have an RfC on this topic? Where? Impru20talk 08:04, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- This is why there's an RfC on this topic, which I think it might make sense to redirect people here towards. AwesomeSaucer9 (talk) 05:07, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Then it should! What I argue is that it doesn't make sense to apply one set of criteria for one article and another wholly different set for other articles. These should be 1) similar criteria under similar situations & 2) consistent, recognizable criteria even on non-similar situations. Impru20talk 23:13, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Revisionism can occur later if further consensus is established. If consensus was established for a 2x3 format, then it wouldn't resptrospecively apply to all other articles, based on an RfC on this article. Unless the RfC was centralized and based on all election articles past and present, which isn't necessary, consensus on this article would have no effect on previous articles. WP:CON should be encouraged to be built, not deterred because previous consensus exists. CNC (talk) 19:10, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Like many others, and for the same reasons as expressed by others above, I support 1x3: Lab, Con, LD. CuriousCabbage (talk) 20:52, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Starting to think this might just be the move. It's a vast majority of the seats and the only ones that have won above 10 seats. Plus, it's the current page, and there's no clear consensus for anything else. River10000 (talk) 21:02, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- There's no consensus for keeping 1x3 either; I believe it has minority support. AwesomeSaucer9 (talk) 21:12, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- My !vote would be for the 3x3 option. I think we have to include Reform, due to the outsize effect they had and that their vote share exceeded the Lib Dems. Also think Greens had a significant role to play as well, and we don't lose that much by just giving all the info. — Amakuru (talk) 21:15, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- There's currently a bit of an edit war over whether the fourth to sixth places are to be included. Has a decision been made? 2601:249:9301:D570:F833:C3AF:F37D:5715 (talk) 03:36, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- One of my main concerns is that, effectively, if a 2x3 infobox is added in order to accomodate Reform (which it could, since it's sixth in seat count), there is going to be people calling for a 3x3 infobox in order to accomodate the Greens, which is basically out of consistency with all previous elections (not even 2017, which was a hung parliament dependant on these minor parties) and unmanageable. Plus there are people somehow calling for the Independents to be shown in sixth place, which is ridiculous (they are not a single unitary force). That is why, as of currently, 1x3 is the less conflictive infobox, as we can all agree that these three should be shown in that order (but there is not any agreement on the other ones). Impru20talk 09:15, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Starting to think this might just be the move. It's a vast majority of the seats and the only ones that have won above 10 seats. Plus, it's the current page, and there's no clear consensus for anything else. River10000 (talk) 21:02, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah. Either this or a 2x2 or a 1x3. Anything that can have an actual consensus by this point, honestly. River10000 (talk) 18:22, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Seat change - use notional numbers or previous election?
Should the seat change (in the infobox for instance) use the notional results from the last election (in which case the Lib Dem increase would be 8 -> 71), or should it use the previous election results on different boundaries (in which case it would be 11 -> 71)? Eastwood Park and strabane (talk) 07:45, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Previous election results I think. A Socialist Trans Girl 07:52, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- The precedent from 2010 United Kingdom general election is to use notional numbers for the seat change parameter, but actual 2019 results for the last election parameter. This is also what most media outlets do. Gust Justice (talk) 07:53, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Indeed. We've used notional results previously, which is the practice most reliable sources follow. Bondegezou (talk) 08:48, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Change leader TBD to Keir Starmer
^ 59.102.22.11 (talk) 08:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Rishi Sunak hasn't resigned as PM officially from HM The King yet SferaEbbasta87 (talk) 08:47, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Agree on this. WP:CRYSTALBALL is important, but not including this in the infobox is pure formalism at this point. All reliable sources say Starmer will be appointed PM (see this as an example) No reason to pretend otherwise on this article. Gust Justice (talk) 09:26, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Percent of vote in last election
Where does the stat "Last election 202 seats, 32.1%" come from? It was 30% Turkeyphant 08:20, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Ignore this I was confused with 2017 result. Imo this is a little unclear (should say date or something). Turkeyphant 08:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Why? The last election result was 2019 and it says this at the top of the infobox DimensionalFusion (talk) 08:56, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think you are projecting your confusion onto everyone else, they didn't get 30% either in 2017, they got 40% !! Tweedle (talk) 09:28, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Where is reform and why are u showing snp and lib dems but not them
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
?????? 2A06:5902:1402:C400:F4FA:D10F:D4F5:F06B (talk) 09:31, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Reform only won 4 seats; Lib Dems and SNP won 71 and 9 respectively. Irltoad (talk) 09:35, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
They won over 4 million votes. As dislikeable as Farage is, this kind of behaviour is detrimental to Wikipedia’s reputation.
Boston and Skegness result
I am just wondering if the result in Boston and Skegness should have its own article regarding their remarkable result there, Matt Warman the Conservative candidate was defeated by a swing of some 43% to Richard Tice of the Reform Party there and also given that Boston was also the place where the highest vote in favour of Brexit was recorded back in the 2016 EU Referendum the circumstances seem appropriate for it should to be included for an article of its own just like Clacton. (MOTORAL1987 (talk) 09:32, 5 July 2024 (UTC))
- It already has its own article: Boston and Skegness (UK Parliament constituency), I'm sure you could add extra info in the elections section. PitterPatter533 (talk) 09:40, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Indeed but why can’t the result have its own article under the title Boston and Skegness in the 2024 United Kingdom general election like the Clacton in the 2024 United Kingdom general election result article? (MOTORAL1987 (talk) 09:57, 5 July 2024 (UTC))
- If there's enough in reliable sources to meet notability guidelines for an article rather than a section of the constituency article, then I see no reason why not. Irltoad (talk) 10:00, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- There are enough reliable sources to write separate articles on every result from last night, which is why we don't, and instead put that information in the constituency article. Black Kite (talk) 10:02, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Fair point. Irltoad (talk) 10:09, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- If you want Boston and Skegness in the 2024 United Kingdom general election, then you can create Boston and Skegness in the 2024 United Kingdom general election. We could also comment on it in an analysis section. Bondegezou (talk) 10:04, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- There are enough reliable sources to write separate articles on every result from last night, which is why we don't, and instead put that information in the constituency article. Black Kite (talk) 10:02, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
I will start the article but I need help to complete it, please tell me then why Clacton can have its own article but why not Boston and Skegness, I am not saying that every constituency result should have its own article but I do think Boston and Skegness is a unique result that does justify its own article? (MOTORAL1987 (talk) 13:20, 5 July 2024 (UTC))
- It all depends on the amount of coverage the local contests get in reliable sources. Clacton has received a huge amount of focus owing to Farage's candidacy there. I don't have a strong opinion on Boston and Skegness, but if the sources support it, fine. That won't apply to every constituency, and in the longer run some of the individual constituency-at-election articles may be merged back to the main article for the relevant constituency. GenevieveDEon (talk) 15:29, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Well Richard Tice was the leader of Reform UK until Nigel decided to stand in Clacton so he was quite notable indeed, the seat was taken on a massive swing from a sitting MP who had a majority of over 25,000 so i do generally believe it’s notable enough to have its own article which now has been started but I do need some help to get the overall result into the article as well as some background info too. (MOTORAL1987 (talk) 16:26, 5 July 2024 (UTC))
- I'm aware of that, but this doesn't depend on your opinion, but on what reliable sources say. If you can find sources that places particular emphasis on the Boston and Skegness contest, that would help. But now you have created that page, this discussion rather belongs on its own talk page. GenevieveDEon (talk) 16:29, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Analysis
The small number of independents winning against Labour, focused on Gaza, may be noteworthy -- but should not take precedence over pressure exerted by e.g. the Liberal Democrats, Reform. The start of the analysis section should focus on the main story of the election, rather than an editor's wish to highlight Gaza. 31.94.72.87 (talk) 10:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, it would be nice to highlight their role in nearly (or actually) wiping out multiple shadow ministers. Tweedle (talk) 13:17, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Starmer is officially PM now
See [4]. David O. Johnson (talk) 11:25, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
"Landslide for Labour"
Is this really an accurate characterization? Labour only went up 1% while Conservatives lost 20%. Labour only has the most seats now because they had the second most seats on the way in. Almost all the gains went to independents, but even then, LibDems picked up more seats than Labour did. It would seem more accurate to characterize this as a "Collapse of Conservatives" than a "Landslide for Labour" 2600:1702:27F0:1D40:D548:D7E:566D:582D (talk) 11:32, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I do think you could question how accurate it is, but this is the term sources are using, whether we like it or not. Here are just some examples. You can find many more I am sure. Gust Justice (talk) 11:37, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- It was irrefutably a landslide victory by number of seats, which is the relevant part in FPTP elections. The same was said in 2019 United Kingdom general election when the Conservatives gained ~1 point in terms of votes but won a majority of 80 seats. Irltoad (talk) 11:46, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- It fits the definition of a landslide as referenced above, hence reliable sources reference as such. CNC (talk) 11:49, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Minor edits and corrections
Under the heading "Candidates" the second paragraph reads, "A record number of Conservative MPs did not stan for re-election". This should be "stand for re-election". 7b8e6497 (talk) 11:56, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
This has been corrected. Irltoad (talk) 11:59, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Final result will be on Saturday:
Just to point out the final result for this election will be on Saturday 6th July. STV news has tweeted out https://x.com/STVNews/status/1809150997341560967 Inverness, Skye and West Ross-shire will be sorted tomorrow Crazyseiko (talk) 13:31, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I have added a sentence on this at the results section. Gust Justice (talk) 14:04, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 5 July 2024
![]() | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I propose changing the following sentence in the lede:
"The Scottish National Party (SNP) lost around three quarters of its seats to Scottish Labour and the Conservative Party.[1]"
To either
"The Scottish National Party (SNP) lost around three quarters of its seats to Scottish Labour[1]"
Or
"The Scottish National Party (SNP) lost around three quarters of its seats to Scottish Labour and the Scottish Liberal Democrats[1]"
This is due to the fact that the Scottish Conservatives did not gain any seats from the Scottish National Party (in fact, they lost the seat of Aberdeenshire North and Moray East). The Scottish Liberal Democrats have gained at least 3, possibly 4 seats from the SNP. I am not sure if that is notable enough to list them alongside Scottish Labour, which is why I have given both options.
Thanks. SurprisedPika (talk) 13:33, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Done Irltoad (talk) 13:47, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, but it seems @Gust Justice reverted this in this edit. I don't know the protocol for this as I'm quite new to wikipedia, but Gust Justice is objectively incorrect, the Scottish Conservatives did not gain any seats from the Scottish National Party, so claiming "The Scottish National Party (SNP) lost around three quarters of its seats to Scottish Labour and the Conservative Party" is objectively wrong. I tried to look up what to do here but since I have to do everything through requests I'm not 100% sure, sorry. Would appreciate an answer by @Gust Justice as to why they are putting incorrect information into this article.
- Thanks. SurprisedPika (talk) 19:58, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- This is a mistake on my part. I only intended to change the results section. It seems like I edited an old version of the article, which inadvertently reverted the change that was made to the lead. Gust Justice (talk) 02:03, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
References
- ^ a b c "UK general election results live: Labour set for landslide as results come in across country". BBC News. 4 July 2024. Archived from the original on 4 July 2024. Retrieved 4 July 2024.
Does anyone know what's causing the delay in declaring in Invernees, Skye & West Ross and Basildon South & E Thurrock?
Just wondering. NesserWiki (talk) 14:46, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- They're on the third count... Very close between SPN and Lib Dems. — Iadmc♫talk 15:08, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I see. Thank you. NesserWiki (talk) 15:15, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Not that we should include it, but it's looking likely the LibDem will win.
- https://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/news/drew-hendry-will-not-be-attending-tomorrow-s-recount-of-the-354939/
- https://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/news/liberal-democrat-is-privately-acknowledged-to-have-been-the-354931/ River10000 (talk) 16:32, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- It looks like the SNP has conceded, so that bumps up the LD total to 72. Right? My math might be wrong River10000 (talk) 19:21, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I can confirm that the SNP candidate has conceded by email that the LibDems have won this (bringing them to 72 seats) by between 1500 and 2000 votes (about 3/4 boxes ahead, of 500 votes each). The SNP candidate will not be attending the technical second re-count, which will start at 10.30 this (Saturday) morning and is now a formality due to a small discrepancy in the original count. Rif Winfield (talk) 08:22, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Inclusion of the Speaker in total for Labour
According to this page: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2024/jul/04/uk-general-election-results-2024-live-in-full "The speaker’s seat of Chorley, if he is re-elected, will be counted towards the Labour party total." So the 412 seats we have as Labour here includes the Speaker. Someone should add a note saying this, as it has usually been the convention that the Speaker is not included in the totals for their party in recent elections. TWM03 (talk) 15:28, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Where are the totals of votes for each party?
It is not very helpful to have only three parties in the infobox. One thing that leads to is that for all the other parties I can only find the number of seats won. Do we have the actual voting totals anywhere? Moonraker (talk) 15:37, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Until tomorrow we will NOT know the full results for all the parties. --Crazyseiko (talk) 16:28, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 5 July 2024 (2)
![]() | It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at 2024 United Kingdom general election. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)
This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".
The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |
JL Partners seat estimates should be added to the tables of final calls. They were in the original page and have now been removed. Clhunter (talk) 15:55, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
2017, 2019 comparison
I think it would be a good idea for the article to note that Labour's vote total this time around was actually significantly less than it was under Corbyn in the 2017 election, and even the 2019 election. Labour was electorally quite successful, but this wasn't because of enthusiasm for Starmer or his party, but simply due to a massive collapse in support for the Tories. -2003:CA:873F:5669:7EAE:408C:D4B0:99B1 (talk) 16:42, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- We already compare the vote of this election to the 2019 one, and the Labour vote was actually higher this time round (as a percentage). I encourage editors to debate as to whether we should compare the Labour vote this time round to the 2017 election, however.--TedEdwards 16:50, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I wasn't talking about as a percentage, but as the actual number of votes. Obviously Labour's percentage was higher, because, as I noted above, support for the Conservatives massively collapsed. But more people voted for Labour under Corbyn in 2017, and even in 2019 than voted for Labour in 2024 under Starmer. That's just a fact. This election was much more a failure for the Tories than it was a success for Labour. The latter simply succeeded by default, as a huge portion the Torries' traditional voting base either switched to Reform UK or didn't bother voting at all. The number of people voting for Labour also declined, just not as much. -2003:CA:873F:5669:7EAE:408C:D4B0:99B1 (talk) 17:05, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- So often when people say the vote is lower, without context, they referring to percentages, so if we said that about the number of votes, we would have to make that clear. Your part about
This election was much more a failure for the Tories than it was a success for Labour. The latter simply succeeded by default, as a huge portion the Torries' traditional voting base either switched to Reform UK or didn't bother voting at all.
could not include as is, as it is not a neutral point of view. But if reliable secondary sources (which in this case basically means news organisations that aren't tabloids, but not necesssarily impartial) talk about what you're saying, we can include discussion of the result and compare it to 2017 and 2019. So if you wanted this sort of discussion based on what reliable news organisations are publishing (probably best to steer clear of self-published media e.g. tweets) it would be helpful if you could post some links here. The only thing we on Wikipedia would have to do is ensure it's clear it's not our opinion, rather we are describing other people's opinions. --TedEdwards 19:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)- How about this article?
- "But while Starmer’s stonking 400-plus seats may look good on paper, dig a little deeper and those shiny new Labour MPs heading off to Westminster would be wise not to be complacent about their prospects of remaining there for long.
- There is little doubt that this election was a loss for the Conservatives rather than Labour’s gain; there was no surge of enthusiasm for the party, as there was when Tony Blair captured the mood of the country in 1997." [5]
- I think Politico is generally considered a rather reputable source, no? -2003:CA:873F:5669:7EAE:408C:D4B0:99B1 (talk) 23:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I believe Politico is reliable, but it doesn't mention anything about the vote share/number Labour got. Rather it claims Reform has a foothold and Labour voters may vote for Reform at the next election. --TedEdwards 18:28, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- It talks about the lack of enthusiasm for Labour, contrasting it with '97, and this lack of enthusiasm is evidenced by the low voter turnout. There's also this article from the Guardian, which notes that "The Tories vote share plunged — but Labour's didn't rise." [6] Now, to be fair, it's talking about percentages there, rather than raw vote totals but it also illustrates the same general theme (along with the Politico article) that the results were more a matter of a collapse in support for the Tories, rather than a rise in support for Labour. So it seems that we have adequate citations for a statement along these lines, and the raw vote share numbers are already listed in Wikipedia articles, and could be noted, as an additional basis of comparison. -2003:CA:873F:56F2:DDAA:675:ED3F:84BE (talk) 23:39, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- I believe Politico is reliable, but it doesn't mention anything about the vote share/number Labour got. Rather it claims Reform has a foothold and Labour voters may vote for Reform at the next election. --TedEdwards 18:28, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- So often when people say the vote is lower, without context, they referring to percentages, so if we said that about the number of votes, we would have to make that clear. Your part about
- I wasn't talking about as a percentage, but as the actual number of votes. Obviously Labour's percentage was higher, because, as I noted above, support for the Conservatives massively collapsed. But more people voted for Labour under Corbyn in 2017, and even in 2019 than voted for Labour in 2024 under Starmer. That's just a fact. This election was much more a failure for the Tories than it was a success for Labour. The latter simply succeeded by default, as a huge portion the Torries' traditional voting base either switched to Reform UK or didn't bother voting at all. The number of people voting for Labour also declined, just not as much. -2003:CA:873F:5669:7EAE:408C:D4B0:99B1 (talk) 17:05, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Do we compare results to the notional results of 2019 or to the actual results of 2019?
Hello.
So only one seat left to declare, and we're getting close to be able to include factual figures of seat change. I was wondering however, whether we should find a consensus on whether we compare the parties seat count to Thrasher and Rawlings notional seat count or the actual seat count from 2019. Personally, I'm leaning toward the actual seat count from 2019, as I worry that comparing it to notional figures will make the page confusing.
Note: We should probably have both, but this discussion is more about what we should primarily use, such as in the infobox. Thomediter (talk) 17:45, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- This change in seats have been documented from the start, there is no reason to remove this information per WP:BRD. [7][8]
- Also no offence but you're a bit "late" to the discussion about how we are to compare seats, even if granted, RS differ on this for reasons explained. There was a template at the top of the page documenting that this is an ongoing election, which shouldn't have been removed as it hasn't finished yet. Nonetheless the reporting parameter in the infobox clearly documents the results are based on this. While we discuss which is the best approach to use for seat changes, the information should be returned based on RS coverage. CNC (talk) 17:58, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- With your revert the seat changes are now based on "quick maff" that aren't supported by RS. [9] CNC (talk) 19:56, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Bang for the buck?
Is it worthwhile to include in the article that Liberal Democrats received 85 percent of the votes that Reform UK received, but 12.8 times as many seats? A Reform UK MP is worth 822,857.4 votes, while a Liberal Democrat MP only has 54,703.75 votes behind him or her. GBC (talk) 22:42, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Media discussion of the proportionality of the seats: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c886pl6ldy9o. This is something that could be included in the article somewhere as it's quite relevant to the result. In the 2019 election page there is a chart relating to the proportionality of the vote using the Gallagher Index. Probably best to wait for the one remaining seat in Scotland before doing complicated calculations but something like that should probably be included here, particularly given the media discussion. I'd add that remarkably the Liberal Democrats still got a lower proportion of seats than votes. Eastwood Park and strabane (talk) 22:48, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Definitely worth discussing in the Aftermath section. Bondegezou (talk) 07:04, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Yorkshire Party leader incorrect
The Yorkshire Party co-leaders are Bob Buxton & Simon Biltcliffe - the article wrongly lists their Chair Andy Walker as leader 188.240.183.141 (talk) 23:09, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Fixed now. Eastwood Park and strabane (talk) 00:11, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Why is Inverness counted as lib dem on the map?
It's not been declared yet Swanstarr (talk) 23:50, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure, but I'm guessing it's because the SNP candidate has conceded defeat to the Lib Dem already. Eastwood Park and strabane (talk) 00:05, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- We've decided to count as SNP have conceeded defeat. But I could see the arguments in not including until the official declaration. Thomediter (talk) 00:06, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Shouldn't Reform be counted as 6 MPs?
Regardless of media articles, Reform themselves count themselves as 6 as does the Electoral Commission as Jim Allister of TUV stood under Reform-TUV in NI. 145.40.150.167 (talk) 01:30, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- We follow reliable secondary sources and reliable secondary sources are not reporting Allister in those terms. Bondegezou (talk) 07:02, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, it's best not to include TUV's one seat with the Reform (UK) total, or for that matter to include the Alliance Party's seat with the LibDems. Rif Winfield (talk) 08:27, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Here’s the latest on whether Allister will sit with the Reform UK group. Bondegezou (talk) 11:54, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, it's best not to include TUV's one seat with the Reform (UK) total, or for that matter to include the Alliance Party's seat with the LibDems. Rif Winfield (talk) 08:27, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Voter turnout
Voter turnout was 60%, yet in the infobox its stated incorrectly. I suggest a source change for that with the correct turnout. Scotlandshire44 (talk) 10:14, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Scotlandshire44 the turnout is 59.9 percent according to the source cited. Please do not change that figure without a reliable source. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk • contribs) 10:16, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- @CanonNi I'm suggesting having a look at other reliable sources because many others are stating turnout was 60%. It's a bit confusing. Scotlandshire44 (talk) 10:20, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Could you provide an example of such source? '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk • contribs) 10:22, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- I would imagine that many reliable sources are just rounding the figure up to 60%, however the turnout was 59.9% and therefore that should be what's in the infobox. Alssa1 (talk) 10:32, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- At time of writing, the BBC's Election 2024 UK results page shows total votes on 28,753,772 and total registered electorate as 48,214,128 - which actually yields 59.64%. This, however, excludes Inverness, Skye and West Ross-shire (UK Parliament constituency), which has yet to declare. 212.187.244.66 (talk) 10:34, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- @CanonNi I'm suggesting having a look at other reliable sources because many others are stating turnout was 60%. It's a bit confusing. Scotlandshire44 (talk) 10:20, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- This number is also confirmed by the Times Newspaper (MOTORAL1987 (talk) 10:42, 6 July 2024 (UTC))
Semi-protected edit request on 6 July 2024 - Reconciling numbers of candidates with other encyclopedic sources
![]() | It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at 2024 United Kingdom general election. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)
This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".
The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |
Double-counting "alliance" candidates
EDIT REQUEST - Change the number of candidates for United Kingdom Independence Party from 26 to 24
DETAIL
I'm resolving multiple discrepancies between party-based totals of candidates and votes per Wiki & other reliable sources. The only error found so far is this one.
Two of the parties, English Democrats and United Kingdom Independence Party entered into an electoral pact in 2023 as the Patriots Alliance.
In the 2024 general election, together they entered 39 candidates:
- 13 under the badge of English Democrats getting 4,956 votes,
- 2 as "Patriots Alliance" (which is not a new, separate party, and is without a Wikipage because of lack of importance) getting 226 votes, and
- 24 as United Kingdom Independence Party getting 6,530 votes,
a total of 11,712 votes.
The extant 2024 United Kingdom general election page shows English Democrats as 15 / 5,182 and United Kingdom Independence Party as 26 / 6,530, a total of 41 / 11,712. This is wrong.
(a) the vote total of 11,712 is correct and consistent with allotting (an arbitrary choice) the 2 "Patriots Alliance" candidates to English Democrats as 13 + 2 = 15 and 4,956 + 226 = 5,182, and
(b) the candidates total of 41 is wrong (should be 39) and has been caused by allotting the 2 "Patriots Alliance" candidates to both registered parties - 13 + 2 = 15 and 24 + 2 = 26
Please someone edit 2024 United Kingdom general election to reduce the number of United Kingdom Independence Party candidates from 26 to 24. 24 is the number shown by the party itself, on a page now password protected - https://archive.is/WjrmN https://www.ukip.org/ge-2024-candidates
The alternative, to reduce the number of English Democrats candidates from 15 to 13, would necessitate also changing its vote count from 5,182 to 4,956 as well as increasing that of United Kingdom Independence Party from 6,530 to 6,756.
Albin-Counter (talk) 12:01, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 6 July 2024
![]() | It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at 2024 United Kingdom general election. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)
This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".
The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |
Remove party background colours from _data_ fields in the table in the section By nation and region. 92.39.194.142 (talk) 12:49, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Correct Labour Majority to 180
Please correct the Labour Majority to 180 in the second paragraph at the start of the article. The current wording states “ Labour achieved a 172-seat majority …” it should be replaced with “ Labour achieved a 180-seat majority … 86.11.252.177 (talk) 13:05, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Labour have returned 411 MPs. There are 650 seats in Parliament and, although a handful (including the Speaker) do not participate in House of Commons votes, that is the figure used for calculating overall majorities; therefore, all other parties combined have elected 239 MPs. 411 Labour MPs - 239 opposition MPs = 172-seat majority. 185.104.136.54 (talk) 13:18, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- To calculate the effective majority, it's easier to count the speaker as a Labour MP, because since Hoyle is a former labour MP, it will mean 2 of the 3 non voting deputy speakers will be from the opposition benches, and the other from the government. So by counting Hoyle as a non voting Labour MP, it means the speakers and deputy speakers cancel each other out when calculating the majority (as they're both 2 on each side). So 643 seats once you factor out Sinn Fein. Then 643 - 412 = 231 opposition seats (assuming Inverness, Skye and West Ross-shire won't be won by Labour). 412 - 231 = 181 majority. --TedEdwards 14:22, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Parliamentary majorities are calculated as: Labour voting members 411 (not including the Labour speaker) less the total opposition voting members 231 (650 total members, less 411 Labour voting members, less 1 the Labour speaker, less 7 non-voting Sinn Féin members) equals 180 86.11.252.177 (talk) 14:28, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Apologies, I did not read your post regarding deputy speakers before posting my response. Interestingly, the following is from the institute for government website … “Second, some MPs are ineligible to take part in votes. This is the case for the Speaker (unless the vote is tied, in which case the Speaker exercises the casting vote), the three deputy Speakers, and the four MPs who act as tellers on a vote. Any MPs who are elected to parliament, but choose not to take up their seat, are also forbidden from voting. That means that the seven Sinn Féin MPs do not vote, as historically that party does not take up its seats in the Commons.” So taking your post & the above …
- Can we calculate the Labour Parliamentary Majority as 182 ?
- Labour voting members 409 (including the Labour speaker, who has a casting vote, but not the Labour Deputy Speaker or the two Labour Tellers) less the total opposition voting members 227 (650 total members, less 409 Labour voting members, less 3 the Labour Deputy Speaker & two Labour Tellers, less 4 the two Opposition Deputy Speakers & Opposition Tellers, less 7 non-voting Sinn Féin members) equals 182. I think 182 is the important figure, incl. the casting vote ? 86.11.252.177 (talk) 15:08, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- The Institute for Government also states: 'At the 2024 general election, the Labour Party won 411 seats. The combined total of seats held by opposition parties and the Speaker is 239. This gives Keir Starmer’s new government a simple majority of 172 seats.'
- The same page goes on to elaborate that Labour has 'an effective working majority of 181 votes in the House of Commons' [emphasis mine] - however, when most other sources refer to the government's majority, they mean the simple majority, not the working majority, because the working majority is slightly theoretical: for example, one could further argue that the two Social Democratic and Labour Party members aren't strictly opposition MPs, given their party's affiliation to UK Labour.
- If there are any major sources who refer to the Labour 'majority' (rather than working majority) as 180-182, please do share them. But, at the moment, places like the BBC (who include the Speaker under their Labour totals) all appear to be opting for figures of 172 or 174, depending on how they count the Speaker, eg: 'The party has taken 412 seats giving it a majority of 174.' Since Wikipedia counts the Speaker separately to Labour, the 411/172 totals should continue to be used. 31.111.26.25 (talk) 18:05, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Happy to accept the above, as agreed the text is majority rather than “working majority”. Thanks for everyone’s effort and explanations, much appreciated :-) 86.11.252.177 (talk) 18:22, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Glad to help! 👍 31.111.26.25 (talk) 18:36, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Happy to accept the above, as agreed the text is majority rather than “working majority”. Thanks for everyone’s effort and explanations, much appreciated :-) 86.11.252.177 (talk) 18:22, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Regional articles created
I have created redirects for the regional lists at
- List of MPs for constituencies in England (2024–present)
- List of MPs for constituencies in London (2024–present)
- List of MPs for constituencies in Wales (2024–present)
- List of MPs for constituencies in Scotland (2024–present)
- List of MPs for constituencies in Northern Ireland (2024–present)
No Swan So Fine (talk) 13:52, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Inverness, Skye and West Ross-shire (UK Parliament constituency) and Angus MacDonald (Liberal Democrat politician)
why does the article for Angus MacDonald (Liberal Democrat politician) say he's been elected when the vote count is still underway/yet to be declared? per the BBC this and this?? 2A00:23C8:308D:9E00:39A3:6911:CEDF:4028 (talk) 14:28, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- The recount is only due to a technicality, not because the vote is close. Based on the original count they are essentially certain Lib Dems have won (and SNP has conceded). spirit of the squirrel (talk) 15:14, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Why has the 1st map been fixed but not the 2nd? As it still says undeclared and is the wrong color? 109.240.34.248 (talk) 16:11, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- I guess whoever made the map hasn't got around to updating it spirit of the squirrel (talk) 18:59, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Why has the 1st map been fixed but not the 2nd? As it still says undeclared and is the wrong color? 109.240.34.248 (talk) 16:11, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Third Party
I think the Liberal Democrats should be removed from third place in the summary box because based on vote share Reform UK came in third place. The electoral system may have awarded more seats to the Liberal Democrats but Reform UK got half a million more votes (Lib Dems got 3,499,969 votes and 12.2% of the vote share versus Reform UK who got 4,072,947 votes and 14.3% of the vote share).
The article should place Nigel Farage and Reform UK in third place because this is a major change and reflects the outcome of the popular vote Aetheling1125 (talk) Aetheling1125 (talk) 15:02, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- The infobox appears to be based on seats won, not percentage of vote. 2601:249:9301:D570:F833:C3AF:F37D:5715 (talk) 16:19, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- This has been standard across all elections for a long time. UKIP came third in vote count in 2015, but since the Liberal Democrats won more seats they made it into the infobox instead. The election is won on seats, not votes, so that's what we show. Eastwood Park and strabane (talk) 16:31, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- UKIP not being there and Reform UK not being included here either is scandalous. Maurnxiao (talk) 20:06, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Inclusion is being discussed elsewhere on this page. 2601:249:9301:D570:F833:C3AF:F37D:5715 (talk) 20:41, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- The situations in this article and the 2015 one have fluctuated somewhat but the status quo is exclusion. Is it not baffling? Maurnxiao (talk) 20:58, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- No, since it's based on number of seats won. The parties only received single digit numbers of seats. 2601:249:9301:D570:F833:C3AF:F37D:5715 (talk) 23:13, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- And? The number of votes they received were enormous and substantially altered the results and in UKIP's case, the next several years of UK politics (Cameron's botched attempt to consolidate power with the referendum, his resignation, May's minority government and her several failed Brexit deals and the 2019 election under Boris Johnson)... Maurnxiao (talk) 23:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- That's a discussion here. 2601:249:9301:D570:F833:C3AF:F37D:5715 (talk) 02:02, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- And? The number of votes they received were enormous and substantially altered the results and in UKIP's case, the next several years of UK politics (Cameron's botched attempt to consolidate power with the referendum, his resignation, May's minority government and her several failed Brexit deals and the 2019 election under Boris Johnson)... Maurnxiao (talk) 23:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- No, since it's based on number of seats won. The parties only received single digit numbers of seats. 2601:249:9301:D570:F833:C3AF:F37D:5715 (talk) 23:13, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- The situations in this article and the 2015 one have fluctuated somewhat but the status quo is exclusion. Is it not baffling? Maurnxiao (talk) 20:58, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Inclusion is being discussed elsewhere on this page. 2601:249:9301:D570:F833:C3AF:F37D:5715 (talk) 20:41, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- UKIP not being there and Reform UK not being included here either is scandalous. Maurnxiao (talk) 20:06, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- This has been standard across all elections for a long time. UKIP came third in vote count in 2015, but since the Liberal Democrats won more seats they made it into the infobox instead. The election is won on seats, not votes, so that's what we show. Eastwood Park and strabane (talk) 16:31, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Election is won on seats not votes. SimplyLouis27 (talk) 18:57, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- We put Trump before Clinton in the infobox for the 2016 US Presidential election, even though Clinton got more votes. What matters is winning under the rules of the electoral system in place. That trumps vote share. Bondegezou (talk) 20:03, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- There may be reasons to discuss whether UKIP/Reform should be in the infobox; definitely there are no understandable reasons for the LibDems at 72 seats to not be shown in third place. Impru20talk 23:56, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Labour votes and Speaker
Hi there! In the results table, Labour has 9,704,655 votes and the Speaker 25,238 votes. The BBC page doesn't show the Speaker's votes and I assume they are added into Labour's total. Should we correct the Labour total vote to 9,679,417? Tuesp1985 (talk) 17:50, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think so. Maurnxiao (talk) 20:04, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Independents (Gaza) Vs Independents (Other)
How many of each were there out of the six total?
And unless there were none of the latter, shouldn't they have separate lines on the results table? Or failing that, at least a footnote specifying which of the six were which?
For what it's worth, I saw the campaign literature of several "independent" Gaza candidates in the Midlands and can confirm they were visibly part of the same campaign (same graphic design, layout etc) even if they are not technically a party. Romomusicfan (talk) 20:37, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Update - the article List of minor-party and independent MPs elected in the United Kingdom only lists five independents - Shockat Adam for Leicester South, Jeremy Corbyn for Islington North, Adnan Hussain for Blackburn, Ayoub Khan for Birmingham Perry Barr and Iqbal Mohamed for Dewsbury and Batley. All five ran on Gaza-related platforms against Labour main opponents. Who was the sixth and did they do likewise? Romomusicfan (talk) 21:47, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- The 6th was Alex Easton in North Down who is listed on the List of minor party MPs page (look in the Northern Ireland section) and certainly wasn't standing on a Gaza-related platform. I don't see how we can list the Gaza-related independents separately, as trying to break down who was a "Gaza independent" and who wasn't takes us into WP:OR. Valenciano (talk) 21:58, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- I can think of two ways of doing it - either find an article listing the five individually by name or else one source for each one of the five (possibly from their five individual articles) citing their Gaza related platform(s). A footnote would do if we just stick to elected MPs.Romomusicfan (talk) 22:15, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Or else possibly indies could be split into GB and NI.Romomusicfan (talk) 22:19, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- It's very much original research to claim that it's all down to Gaza. For example Corbyn had speculation about running as an independent for years. Chessrat (talk, contributions) 22:27, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- It's not OR if a RS says there are five of them. Such as this one. Romomusicfan (talk) 22:54, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think the major problem, though, is that it's then inconsistent to split the elected Independents into Gaza vs 'other', whilst leaving the 459 Independent candidates as an undifferentiated group - especially since several unelected Independents were running on similar platforms (see below). Finding out exactly how many of these 459 people were running on a Gaza platform would require substantial OR.
- The other problem is that this is largely one of editorialising. However clear they may have been in their campaign materials, etc, about their platforms for running, each of these 6 MPs (and 453 other candidates) were simply listed as 'Independent' on the ballot paper - as distinct from the Ashfield Independents, Lincolnshire Independents and Swale Independents, amongst others. One could probably just as easily go back to the 2015 general election and add a footnote about how many Conservative MPs supported (what would become) Leave vs Remain, but that would clearly be editorialising as well.
- Further to this, I also think it would be highly misleading to group Corbyn in with Adam, Hussain, Khan and Mohamed, as there is a world of difference between four people with only grassroots support and little to no political background, who went on to unseat sitting Labour MPs, and the man who literally led the Labour Party until four years ago, was the incumbent MP in his constituency (and has been since 1983), and who had the support of former local Labour members in his campaign against a newly-selected Labour candidate. In this respect, Corbyn is arguably much closer to Easton than to the Gaza independents, as Easton had been a prominent DUP politican for two decades before splitting with the party a few years ago (although the DUP didn't field a candidate against him).
- At the moment, the article already includes the following paragraph: 'Four independent candidates (Ayoub Khan, Adnan Hussain, Iqbal Mohamed, Shockat Adam) defeated Labour candidates in areas with large Muslim populations; the results were suggested to be a push-back against Labour's position on the Israel-Hamas war. Additionally, then Shadow Health Secretary Wes Streeting retained his seat by a margin of only 528 votes following a challenge by independent British-Palestinian candidate Leanne Mohamad, while prominent Labour MP Jess Phillips retained her Birmingham Yardley constituency by a margin of 693 votes.' This seems a perfectly sufficient explanation of the situation, without having to add an additional footnote elsewhere saying almost exactly the same thing. 31.111.26.25 (talk) 09:12, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- It's not OR if a RS says there are five of them. Such as this one. Romomusicfan (talk) 22:54, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Suggested footnote to figure of six independents:
Total comprises one former DUP member[1] and five MPs who stood on platforms opposing the Israel–Hamas war.[2]
(Second ref will require formatting) Romomusicfan (talk) 06:20, 7 July 2024 (C)
Reform Party in infobox?
No horse in this race, but I heard they overtook the Conservatives in some polls and it was a big deal. Bremps... 02:21, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- This is being discussed elsewhere on the page. 2601:249:9301:D570:F833:C3AF:F37D:5715 (talk) 02:34, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
What parties to put in infobox
While I do fully support putting the LibDems, SNP and ReformUK in the infobox, I do feel as though it would be best to replace Sinn Fein with the Greens, since it is pretty unorthodox to include Northern Irish parties in a UK general election infobox (except for 2017 for some reason). CY223 (talk) 05:53, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Sinn Fein got 7 seats, while the Greens only got 4, so it doesn't make much sense to include the latter over the former. 2601:249:9301:D570:F833:C3AF:F37D:5715 (talk) 06:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia articles that use British English
- Wikipedia In the news articles
- B-Class United Kingdom articles
- High-importance United Kingdom articles
- WikiProject United Kingdom articles
- B-Class Politics of the United Kingdom articles
- High-importance Politics of the United Kingdom articles
- B-Class Elections and Referendums articles
- WikiProject Elections and Referendums articles
- Pages in the Wikipedia Top 25 Report
- Wikipedia semi-protected edit requests
- Wikipedia edit requests possibly using incorrect templates