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The policy section of the village pump is used to discuss existing and proposed policies and guidelines.
If you want to propose something new other than a policy or guideline, use the proposals section.

Please see this FAQ page for a list of frequent proposals and the responses to them.

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Improving Wikipedia's credibility

Merged to Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals) - please avoid Wikipedia:Multiposting

Question

I'd like some help regarding Wikipedia's structure. I cannot locate the relevant person to deal with a problem I would like to raise. Who does one contact about the subjectivity of administrators? If administrators appear to have operated outwith their sphere of knowledge and therefore are making inappropriate editorial decisions which mean that information which has no factual basis is not presented as such and that factual information on the subject is being withheld from the public because it disagrees with the viewpoint of the administrators, is there anything that can be done about it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.252.39 (talk) 23:06, 30 January 2009 (UTC) (Moved from section above by Jeremy ^{(v^_^v Dittobori)})

Bring it up at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. But be aware to provide evidence in the form of diffs or else your complaint may get ridiculed. Also, try to avoid making it an issue over content. -Jeremy ^{(v^_^v Dittobori)} 23:26, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. However, I'm still trying to find out who would be the relevant person to deal with. For example, in certain parts of Wikipedia, particularly those of minority cultures, the number of administrators is not large and any weakness in their capacities as administrator is difficult to challenge within their own domain. The problem with a board like the one you suggest in that kind of situation is that it depends on the complainant having i) the requisite information and experience to pursue his complaint (a newbie wouldn't necessary be able to acquire that quickly enough before encountering the problem) and ii) that the non-responsive person or persons with whom the complainant is having problems with would be the person(s) that the complainant is having to deal with in such a forum. In short, knowledge is power and the complainant would have a de facto weakened position. Is there not another means by which a genuine complaint can be fairly and evenly addressed within Wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.252.39 (talk) 00:52, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

The English Wikipedia policy on resolving disputes is at WP:DISPUTE. It's probably best to read it through and find the best approach for your case. — Twinzor ^{Say hi!} 02:45, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

You might try asking on the talk page for the relevant WikiProject. Most large countries have a WikiProject. For example, India's is Wikipedia:WikiProject India. You can go to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject India and ask if there are any administrators who are familiar with India-related topics who could help out with the article you are worried about. You can find a partial list of WikiProjects at Wikipedia:WikiProject. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 06:44, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the above advice. However, I am still unable to identify the relevant person to deal with over the issue of the subjectivity of administrators. Most of the disputes referred to on the dispute page are over material content and not over the subjectivity of administrators. Not only do the suggestions above seem to disadvantage the newbie but administrators can make their impact felt over any number of pages. Potentially one could sort out an issue on one page while the administrator(s) concerned proceeded to create the next of the many issues on yet another page while still receiving no peer assessment as to their fitness as an administrator. Am I to take it that Wikipedia has no system for dealing with this problem of the subjectivity of administrators? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.252.39 (talk) 19:50, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Well administrators are experience editors of good standing (otherwise they do not become administrator), so in general indeed the admin will be seen as the voice of authority in a conflict with a newbie, unless that newbie can provide strong evidence. There will always be some subjectivity involved. Admins that unfairly treat many editors can get demoted; but this is no likely to happen based on a conflict with a single anonymous newbie.

My advice to you would be: Learn to know the project, learn the rules of conduct, work hard to become a respected editor; and if you still collide with admins after that (which I somehow doubt) than you can try these kind of actions. Arnoutf (talk) 20:00, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

You will also note that wikipedia is a community driven project. As such there will not be any single person responsible for the subjectivity of administrators. Taemyr (talk) 21:04, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

it is easier to deal with issues in the concrete, and at a single place. as you've just been reminded, there are a number of places. Pick one, and be bold, and raise the question. If it is about a single administrator, though, the first step is usually to ask for a more detailed explanation--more of us than you might think are open to having our interpretation revised, and almost none of us think we are absolutely perfect. Give it a try as an inquiry first. DGG (talk) 08:52, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

What may not be clear if you haven't dug around quite a bit yet is that administrators aren't people who hold any sort of position of authority on Wikipedia. They're simply individuals whose accounts have a number of extra capabilities compared to non-administrator accounts. The reason they have these extra capabilities is that they engage in work on Wikipedia that requires those capabilities - work beyond the standard stuff of editing encyclopedia content.

But the only reason their accounts have these capabilities is to facilitate that work. An individual with an administrator account isn't an authority on Wikipedia and in fact most such individuals are not any sort of authority, no more than any given government employee is a civic authority. For example, there are probably many janitors who have keys to every room at the Department of Commerce headquarters in Washington, D. C., and that sort of person might know quite a bit about the Department of Commerce and its activities and its internal operations, but he or she would not in any way be an authority.

Wikipedia administrators are not supposed to use their account's special capabilities in the course of normal editorial work and certainly not over an editorial issue or editorial dispute that the administrator is involved in - only third-party, uninvolved administrators should be. So dealing with an administrator over an editorial issue should not be any different than dealing with a non-administrator editor and if it is different something is wrong.

If an administrator is introducing a bias or non-neutral point of view into an article or set of articles, with enough time and effort and through the community process here you will be vindicated and be able to restore or establish a fair and neutral tone to the articles you're concerned with. I would actually say that you'll be able to get alot further, much more quickly, than you'd be able to in something like a government or corporate bureaucracy. (But that's not saying much - in a difficult case or against a clever malicious administrator it's still something that might take weeks or months of careful, sustained effort, just probably not years as in real-world disputes.)

But some caveats are:

• You have to work within the system and the existing principles of the community.
• You really need to behave with the utmost integrity yourself to be able to convince others that you're in the right. (And make sure that you are in the right, of course - make sure that your own bias or viewpoint isn't clouding your judgment.)
• You should not expect to get personal vindication from it - all you'll probably get is an improved encyclopedia article in the end with reduced subjectivity, and it will likely not worded the way you'd prefer nor written the way you want it overall. It's very unlikely that anyone will say, "You were right all along!" or recognize any personal expertise on your part - on Wikipedia your work will always have to prove itself.

Good luck. --❨Ṩtruthious ℬandersnatch❩ 15:03, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

First of all, I'd like to thank everyone for their comments.

Struthious would use the word 'capability' rather than 'authority'. My understanding is that when the capability is given to administrators, authorisation or permission to use the capability is, de facto, granted at the same time. Administrators in turn authorise and grant capabilities. Adminstrators can limit an individual's freedom to edit, ie, both permission and capability are revoked at the same time.

Despite Struthious' assurances and comparisons, it would still seem to me that the newbie is disadvantaged by the processes mentioned above and the relevant administrator(s) allowed to continue their activity for a rather indefinite period, since the processes mentioned above seem focused on dealing with articles on an individual basis and seem to assume that all administrators who would take part would be unbiased in judgment.

Arnoutf remarks that, 'admins that unfairly treat many editors can get demoted'. I would be interested in knowing how that happens and how long it usually takes.

In the light of what I've managed to find out so far, the process for dealing with any administrator lacking would still seem a very arduous and time-consuming process. Not only that, but the information supplied so far would still not seem practical in relation to smaller Wikis, so I repeat: while this English language Wikipedia has quite a number of administrators, the administrators of another Wiki of smaller size may be dominated by a certain individual or individuals, perhaps all very biased to one another. In this latter case, who would the newbie have recourse to for assistance concerning the subjectivity or such administrators? It would seem silly to suggest that a newbie raises the question of proper judgment with any administrator(s) who have already ruled against him in some way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.165.152.71 (talk) 18:46, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Noindex of brand-new pages

Would it be helpful or hurtful if brand-new pages and pages recently moved into article space, say, pages less than 6 hours old, were not indexed? I'm not sure how this could be done or even if it could be done, but supposing it could, is it a good idea or bad idea?

The goal is to deter search-engine vandalism. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 01:50, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

How about NOINDEX being set until the page is patrolled, and then it reamins for one hour in case it's CSDed?

That would work if the indexing was added to unpatrolled pages more than a day old, and if it was added to previously-patrolled user-space pages which were moved to mainspace for the first 24 hours in mainspace. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 17:36, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

• Doesn't it take a while for a page to be indexed anyway? The crawler has to get to it. –xeno (talk) 17:40, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

• I've seen google get a page within 4-6 hours of creation. So it should be assumed that if a page is created, it is google-dexed. MBisanz ^talk 17:56, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

• If we do decide to set new pages to NOINDEX until they've been patrolled (and perhaps also unsighted versions under some proposals), then for the benefit of crawlers, we need to ensure that there is an RSS feed that lists pages that become indexable. Otherwise, the crawler will find the page under new pages or recent changes, note that it is NOINDEX, and never revisit it. Bovlb (talk) 20:46, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I know I've said this before but this is a good reason to enable FlaggedRevs. Then it would be as simple as have to NOOINDEX'ing all pages which have no flagged rev. Pages which do have some flagged revs would display the last flagged rev by default and to anonymous users including the GoogleBot. — CharlotteWebb 16:23, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Mythology & Religion

There are arguments raging across the Wikipedia religious articles about the use of the word 'mythology' in connection with (living) religions. These arguments are detracting from good editing and causing ill-feeling between editors. I believe that the only way to resolve these arguments is if a 'once-and-for-all' policy be adopted.

Some of you may have encountered me in this very argument with respect to Noah's Ark. I will state for the benfit of others that I firmly believe we are wrong to describe any part of any living religion as a 'myth'.

I appreciate that many editors argue in favour of using the word because this is the word that is used in 'mainstream' literature. However, this ignores several important points:

• The use in 'mainstream' literature is not exclusive. There are many POVs regarding the status of religions with respect to myth(ology) and there are far too many instances on WP where only one of these POVs is allowed.
• It has been argued that dictionary definitions explicitly state that 'myth' does not imply truth or falsehood. This may be true, but the common perception of the term is that of falsehood. One need only look up 'myth' in a thesaurus. The only antonyms to be found there are 'truth', 'true story' or some such and the synonyms all reflect the common meaning of a 'made up' story. If people commonly perceive the meaning to imply 'falsehood' then WP is remiss in using the word in this context.
• An argument frequently raised by the 'pro' lobby is that WPs own guidelines on 'words to avoid' state that the 'common' meaning should be avoided. This argument is specious. The guidelines are for editors, not for the readers. The readers will take whatever meaning they believe to be correct. Further, I note that all of the guidelines relating to this have been written by people who are part of that 'pro' lobby.
• It has been argued that a link to the 'myth' page will instruct a reader as to the correct definition. It is also been proposed that an 'infobox' containing the definition be included in the page. Surely, any word that has to be explained must be classified as jargon and is therefore discouraged by WP. Further, admitting that it needs to be explained is a clear admission that there is ambiguity about its use.
• The word is, quite simply, offensive to millions of believers around the world. It has been said that we should not shy away from offending a minority - I heartily agree, but the numbers who believe in the Bible/Quran/Tanakh and many, many other documents they hold as sacred far outweighs the atheist minority who seem to be offended by the word's omission.
• Finally, and perhaps most importantly, so long as we have an ambiguous word we are going to have heated debates about its use. This detracts from all of the noble intentions of Wikipedia. I, for one, would rather be arguing about the substance of an article than spending weeks discussing a single word in the opening paragraph. We really need a 'once-and-for-all' judgement on the use of this word and the only way to avoid further conflict is to judge that it is best kept away from 'living' religions.--FimusTauri (talk) 13:10, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, FT, this very eloquently sums up the problem we have been having and I would like to be the first to say that I stand by everything you wrote. In fact I've made my own user box,

Regarding neutrality: This user feels it is offensively P.O.V. and biased to describe the beliefs of any living world religion as "myths".

to convey my feelings on my userpage, and you or anyone else who feels the same way is more than welcome to copy the code {{User:Til Eulenspiegel/User notamyth}} onto your userpage. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 13:30, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not a believer so the use of the word myth isn't offensive to me personally, but clearly if it is offensive to anyone it shouldn't be used in the encyclopedia. The English language is large enough to find and substitute another word.Rktect (talk) 13:51, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Ummm, we don't choose to ignore a relevant point of view just because people with the opposing point of view dislike it. If you are suggesting just addressing the word "myth" and not the general viewpoint, then how would you propose dealing with the point of view that religious stories are well... mythical, without using the word? Dragons flight (talk) 17:56, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

You don't have to ignore a relevant point of view but you could use the word story, tale, or narrative instead of myth to avoid giving offense.

Aside from that not everything in the ANE is a myth. There are a lot of places where story or narritive would be more accurate than myth, with a lot of the "mythical" part caused by some 9th century BC translator with a POV glossing the text trying to make everything sound miraculous.

Take for example the 12th dynasty "Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor". Early 19th century translators described it as a myth or fairy tale about a magic snake. Later translators have pointed out that it describes the very real red sea trade with Punt that began in Egypts fourth dynasty, and the part that is translated as magic snake actually just describes a form of motion that "shivers" "snakes" and "shimmies" like a snake. In the story even the mountains are a snake.

"The shipwrecked sailor gets rescued by the king of Punt who seeks shelter from the storm on the island the sailor is wrecked on, running the bar into the harbor with bare poles (no sails up).

The king comes ashore still shivering from the storm and the close call. He talks with a booming voice you can hear from many cubits away, the translator decides this refers to the length of the snake. Eventually the king takes him home where the translator describes the daughters of the king as snakes. Again the actual intent is to describe their dance which is characterised by a motion similar to the wriggling of a snake. Its description as a fairy tale or myth makes it that much less likely to be taken seriously as the description of a voyage.

In addition to being offensive to some the word myth is weighted and inaccurate.Rktect (talk) 19:01, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Please see this recent CFD regarding whether Category:Creation myths should be renamed; the responses have been overwhelmingly in favor of retaining the titling of "myth" because that is the term scholars use, and there is no objective basis for distinguishing between the stories of religions still practiced and those that are no longer observed. "Myth" is a scholarly descriptive term, not an evaluative term. Eliminating its usage has been a recurring suggestion for years and one that has always been decided in the negative. Re: the statement that, "clearly if it is offensive to anyone it shouldn't be used in the encyclopedia" (emphasis added), this is a completely unworkable standard and not one that is in any sense observed on Wikipedia. To do so would make all content endlessly subject to special interest demands and heckler's vetoes. Postdlf (talk) 19:10, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Re: "there is no objective basis for distinguishing between the stories of religions still practiced and those that are no longer observed." Actually, "distinguishing between stories of religions still practiced and those that are no longer observed" is in itself a very objective basis. What do you mean? It is also the distinction that neutral encyclopedias have made for centuries when distinguishing "mythology" from "religion". The tendency to lump modern "religion" in as a subset of "mythology" is the hallmark of recent POV, and particularly marks this as a POV-biased project in its reputation. Note that traditional categorization schemes such as the Dewey Decimal system certainly do not make modern "religion" a subset of "mythology". Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 21:03, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I would also point out that in some cases administrative decisions have gone in the opposite direction. It was decided that Yoruba mythology was an inappropriate title, on account of the fact that the Yoruba still practice their religion, and accordingly the article was moved to Yoruba religion for this reason. I support this decision, but I don't think we should be "playing favorites" with some religions and declaring which current belief systems are practicing "mythology", the very same word Thomas Paine, Voltaire and Karl Marx used polemically to attack the Christian Church. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 21:11, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

That's just the point, we do not play favorites between various religions whether observed or not. Whether a religion is still practiced or not has nothing to do intrinsically with that religion or its associated beliefs and traditions. A story about gods is still a story about gods regardless of whether anyone living believes those gods exist, and a story about gods is called a myth by scholars. Religion, as a term, is furthermore broader than mythology, as a religion includes practices, rituals, and institutions, in addition to myths. One doesn't "practice" mythology, though one may believe in it or engage in religious practices that take their meaning from it. From looking at Yoruba religion, the article includes descriptions of practices and so is not exclusively about mythology, so on that basis the rename makes sense. If it was purely because Yoruba still has living adherents, then it was not a good decision on that basis. Postdlf (talk) 21:24, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the exact purpose of this thread is. Is it a proposal to ban the use of the word myth from the encyclopedia with respect to 'living' religions? If so, then it doesn't seem like much more than a proposal to invent a new definition of the word myth, and then prescribe usage of it throughout the encyclopedia, in spite of what terminology reliable sources use. This is in direct conflict with WP:NPOV and likely WP:OR. Myth is clearly defined in an academic context, an extremely useful classification, and has near universal support in the relevant literature. I don't see why appeals to personal feelings on the matter or association fallacies (as in Til's example above) should influence policy ever, let alone in this case. Cheers, Ben (talk) 21:37, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I think it should be obvious that for purposes of "significant points of view", it makes all the difference in the world whether a religion or belief is still practiced or not. That's one of our main functions, to distinguish between extinct and current beliefs and to be neutral between the current ones. But there is a considerable body of anti-religious bigots at wikipedia who militantly hold that no religion is entitled to be recognised as a "significant" point of view, and who seem to feel that that language reflecting it should be unnecessarily polemic. They shouldn;t be bringing their battle to extinguish beliefs here. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 21:46, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

As a descriptivist, I think it's worth our while to focus on how a word is commonly understood rather than how it ought to be understood, since Wikipedia is a mainstream encyclopedia. However, until mythologists decide to abandon the corrupted term, there is no reasonable substitute for it as a technical term. As a compromise, I suggest some type of qualifier, such as a "formal myth," "technical myth," "sacred myth," "mythological story," or "story with mythological elements"; regardless with a link to myth for the full details. Regardless, we should not try to spin this as a religion vs. atheism thing, when the people defending the use of the term only want it included for the sake of its technical accuracy. Dcoetzee 22:10, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm, interesting solution... I particularly like "technical myth", that might just address everything, that is, by specifying in what way the word myth is used... Wonder what others think. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 22:14, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

It should be noted that the term is used widely in other, similar, projects, and so introducing new terms like "formal myth", "technical myth" etc. are only going to confuse people. Encyclopedia Britannica for instance, uses the term freely. One solution that was settled on over at the Noah's Ark page was to write ".. myths of Abrahamic religions". In this way, we make clear that we're talking about myths from a religious/sacred perspective. What do you think? Cheers, Ben (talk) 22:30, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

And yet most encyclopedias historically have only discussed extinct beliefs in their "mythology" articles, not living ones... It's not really a new distinction... Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 22:37, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry? There is no distinction at all. I've never seen a reliable source make the distinction. There used to be a school of thought that mythology was a polytheistic concept, but that was a long time ago. Very few people still make that distinction. If you can dig up old notable texts that do make the myth = dead religion distinction, then I guess that is something that can be discussed on the myth page though. Further to my above comment, what about creation myth, deluge myth and so on? I'm leaning pretty heavily to an oppose on prepending any new terms to the word myth. This sort of stuff should be left to the myth page. Ben (talk) 22:42, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Can you possibly explain how and by whom it was "decided" that 'mythology' is no longer used strictly for polytheistic concepts? I've encountered lots of more recent sources that still say this, so I wouldn't agree that "Very few people still make this distinction". And just look up "mythology" in a few encyclopedias and note how many discuss any monotheistic beliefs in the article entry. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 22:57, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Not on this page, no. You can bring it up on the myth / mythology pages though, and I will be happy to discuss it. Ben (talk) 23:11, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't go to those pages except to comment on the wording of those respective articles, per WP:TALKPAGE... But I think it's a very important question, so if you have an answer, you could use my user talkpage. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 23:25, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Well I predicted that response well. Already there. Ben (talk) 23:28, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

My sense of myth is that its legendary, something widely heard of but dismissed by non believers as not proven. A myth doesn't necessarily have to refer to a religious belief, it could refer to the existence of the loch ness monster, bigfoot,the Yeti or an urban legend. In most cases when its used in reference to a religion living or dead its mainly intended to give offense by implying that believers in that religion are in the same category as believers in UFO's. Rktect (talk) 23:36, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I am pleased to see that I have provoked a lively debate and that the debate has (so far at least) been civil. I notice that those in favour of the word still only have one argument: that this is the word used in 'scholarly' texts. None of these respondants have yet addressed the various counter-arguments I set out above. I should say that I do not think anyone disputes that the term has been used in scholarly works to describe some or all of the stories in various religions. However, perhaps my biggest concern is how far the use of the term is taken. I have few problems with describing the Creation story as 'myth'. As one moves forward in time in the Hebrew Bible the use of the word 'myth' becomes increasingly contentious. At what point do we stop using 'myth' and start using 'history'. A typical example can be found on the Christian mythology page, where the section on "Important examples" has a list that, in effect, includes every story in the Christian Bible. Can it be right that we call the story of Jesus a myth? Or the story of the Diaspora? I do not think there are any 'scholarly' sources that do so (excepting the works of some 'militant atheists')--FimusTauri (talk) 09:21, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

The real issue is which ideas are testable hypothesis and which do you have to take on faith. If its a belief, a legend, a story or a tradition those are all words you could use instead of myth and achieve better definition and more consensus. When it comes to stories about Jesus there are certainly a lot of them that have been excluded from some works and included in others. The words used to describe those which are excluded generally don't include myth.

In terms of the way the Greeks set up their categories of definition for the legends of creation and divine powers there were Chaos, Mythos, Eros, Holos, Logos, Chronos, and Cosmos; all very mathematical and imbued with natural philosophy as a process of asking and answering questions dialectically and all now lumped together as pagan gods. Rktect (talk) 10:19, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Dragonflight's first response above was "Ummm, we don't choose to ignore a relevant point of view just because people with the opposing point of view dislike it." This is exactly right. There are two opposing points if view here, and both are relevant to a topic concerning what the church or other religious body teaches. So we shouldn't ignore either one, but per WP:NPOV, neither should we endorse either one of them. But all of the intolerance I have seen is directed against the point of view of religious readers. I am referring to attempts to marginalize, stigmatize, or declare as fringe, the spokesmen of the religious bodies who teach these things to appease the opposing pov of a militant "scholarly" minority. Even the actual scholars I have seen tend to be far more cautious in throwing the term "myth" at living religions. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 12:50, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Fimus, it looks to me like you're falling into a new trap. On top of your personal feelings being your motivation, it seems you're trying to argue along the lines of X is not described as a myth, therefore nothing should be. As Marcus Borg notes, David Strauss's claim that many of the gospel narratives are mythical in character, and that "myth" is not simply to be equated with "falsehood" — have become part of mainstream scholarship. I assure you that Strauss was no atheist, militant or otherwise. Neither is Borg, and mainstream scholarship is not some atheist conspiracy.

Fimus and Til, you may not like these facts, but Wikipedia is here to reflect the reliable sources on a topic, not to right what you feel are great wrongs, and so we present these mainstream views with due weight. This last point is important, since it seems you still haven't shaken your misunderstanding of NPOV, Til. If there are notable minority positions that hold a particular topic should not be classified as mythical, then that is to be presented in the relevant article. We do not, however, ignore or hide mainstream views in an attempt to give a minority viewpoint more weight than it is due. That is it. No banning of words, no new policies. Cheers, Ben (talk) 13:13, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Claiming "personal feelings" as a motivation is not only inaccurate, it is uncivil.

You have still failed to address the other points raised and are still making the singular argument that the word is used by 'mainstream' 'scholarly' opinion. That is only one POV. A truly neutral encyclopedia would give due weight to alternative opinions. It certainly would not give carte blanche to editors to describe every last story in the Bible as a myth.--FimusTauri (talk) 13:21, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Incidentally, I used the term "miltant atheists" to describe the extremists who would have us all believe that nothing in the Bible is true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FimusTauri (talk • contribs) 13:40, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

You want to me address your synonym/antonym research? You want me to address strawmen arguments like It certainly would not give 'carte blanche' to editors to describe every last story in the Bible as a myth, as if anyone made this statement? Fimus, I think I've been incredibly patient with this. I've invested I don't know how many hours researching this to provide you guys with solid, sourced, information. I've carefully tried to explain things in terms of Wikipedia policy. After all that, it seems the only thing that has changed is the venue. There is no support to remove or restrict the use of the word myth, so unless anyone new has any specific questions, would like sources, whatever, then I don't see the need to keep popping this page up on who knows how many peoples watchlists. Cheers, Ben (talk) 13:44, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

It certainly would not give 'carte blanche' to editors to describe every last story in the Bible as a myth might have been a strawman - but that is exactly what has happened on the page Christian mythology - look it up! --FimusTauri (talk) 13:54, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

But isn't wiki supposed to remain neutral? If we change policy because of a certain group we will be defering to that group. The only thing we should be concerned about is proper use of language. If it is the right word then I think we should use it. Plus if we cave to one group, we will be slaves to the public attitude. Skeletor 0 (talk) 17:39, 3 February 2009 (UTC) Also we call it "greek mythology" not greek religion. Why? Because no one is arguing the point. 17:43, 3 February 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skeletor 0 (talk • contribs)

But we've already "caved to one group" - a small set of scholars who choose to characterize certain of the modern, living religions as teaching "mythology". When I took Comparative Religion at university, that's exactly what my professors told us NOT to do. (And one of the CompRel professors was Hindu) But the argument the "pro-mythology" editors keep using is "We can't have reducto ad populi" hmmmm... Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 17:47, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Since "modern living religions" derive from "ancient pagan religions" its probably wrong to use the word myth in reference to the pagan natural philosophies also. In some ways its like saying you can't Call Sir Isaac Newton an alcemist because that diminishes his scientific contributions. The way I see it, he's the same guy regardless. Why not allow that there is no good reason to discriminate against or depreciate other peoples ideas and leave it at that.Rktect (talk) 17:59, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

It is becoming increasingly clear to me that some editors are either deliberately misrepresenting 'scholarly opinion' or they do not fully appreciate what that opinion is. By this I mean that we have a situation where there is a generally accepted and common use of the term 'myth' to describe some religious stories (whether right or wrong is not the point I am making here). For example, the term is almost universally used with reference to Creation, even among the religious scholars and the literalists (I am distinguishing the literalists from the inerrants). However, the 'pro-myth' lobby are taking this and extending it far beyond the true scholarly opinion. They are saying that because some stories are described as myth, we can call most (or even all) religious stories as myth. The evidence for this is clear: the Christian mythology article lists, under the heading "Important examples of Christian mythology" every story in the Old and New testament. The only parts of these works not listed are the letters and 'wisdom' texts. Yet, under this section there is not a single example of 'Christian mythology' that is not found in the canon. I keep mentioning this article because it is such a glaring example of how the 'pro' lobby has taken the use of myth with some stories and extended it to encompass the whole of a religious text. I notice that not one of that lobby has yet defended that article.--FimusTauri (talk) 10:42, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

They are saying that because some stories are described as myth, we can call most (or even all) religious stories as myth.

I don't think that its necessary to go overboard. If the story were told stripped of a few paragraphs of creation traditions it would come across as really not all that different from other accounts we accept as historical. Most of the story has geo-political historical, archaeological, and linguistic reinforcement and clearly isn't myth. Take out the claims of a divine causuality that have been edited in over time and the story gets back to its roots. The glosses that make sure the priests get their cut show the edits because of the textual artifacts of custom, tradition and prices that change overtime. All of that and a few misunderstandings of the story by commentors and translators who have rewritten parts of it aside, it could be considered as valid as an Encyclopedia.

Maybe the simplest way out of this for those who wish to discuss Bible stories is to include more of the context in which the story of the Penteteuch is set.

If we then add some analysis of how the story has evolved from a straightforward historical account to what is now viewed as myth, that might help. You don't need to have a POV as to its religious doctrines to appeciate its underlying composition

The story begins with a statement of what ancient wisdom literature considered common law precedent, ie; what people considered right and proper in every way including explanations of natural phenomena that seemed strange or supernatural. In that sense, at that stage of its composition c 1750 BC when the different accounts of sumerian and akkadian creation narratives were being resolved by scribes in Old Babylon, its not that different from the composition of the code of Hammurabi, its all about building consensus and sometimes more than one version is included so that the right explanation is in there one way or another.

If we can understand how it was edited to put forward a belief structure in which the concept of any inexplicable event or events is taken as requiring a supernatural explanation we could reduce the claims the story is myth. The problem really isn't the story itself but the priestly commetary or guidence on what to think when you read the story.

The Documentary hypothesis uses a lot of textual artifacts to show what happened when the story was next subjected to major edits c 970 BC, in the time of Solomon, and later after the destruction of the temple when the scribes were living in a different place within a different culture, speaking a different language.

Is there anyone here that isn't familiar with scholarly discussion of how the story has been edited and glossed over time? Am I wrong to assume that we are all familiar with who said what when?

The Genesis 14 period edits date stamp themselves, so do the edits from the time of Solomon and the edits from c 600 BC just as do the selection of the books to be included.

In our time there is certainly an abundence of published reliable sources with commentaries that make what may have seemed supernatural in the bronze age and the iron age a lot more natural.

Instead of fighting against inclusion or exclusion or butting heads over whether the story is a myth or not and having someone either offended by the suggestion their cherished belief is ridiculous or outraged by the censorship of dissenting explanations why not work toward consenses.

If we set some guidelines as to what to include or exclude from Bible stories in order to avoid taking a POV I think that would help. I'd propose that wherever a supernatural or explanation is desired to be included without being tagged as myth, NPOV require the inclusion of geo-political, historical, archaeological, and linguistic context. Rktect (talk) 11:48, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea however, I think it will be a very very delicate process to create those guidelines. Instead of nutting heads over what is or is not a myth, we will be butting heads over what parts of a story take a point of view or not. Skeletor 0 (talk) 19:02, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I have now raised this issue as a RfC - Proposed change to policy on ambiguous words in religious articles--FimusTauri (talk) 09:15, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

For the everyman

I have noticed this problem for some time now but I wished to have some form of solution before I brought it to the attention of the wiki communtiy at large. Unfortunatly, I have not found one thus I am openning the floor to suggestions by anyone. I have noticed the pages in the math and physics sections of wiki have become far too complex for the everyman to understand. I understand the desire to include the proper equations and theory behind the pricipals but most people do not come to wiki for equations like :$ds^{2}=-\left(1-{2M \over r}\right)dt^{2}+{1 \over 1-{2M \over r}}dr^{2}+r^{2}d\Omega ^{2}.\,$ They come for a basic overview understand or to find places where they can do more reaserch through our references. That is not to say that we shouldn't have the complexies of physics and math theories on the site. I just think that there should be a seperation or even a seperate page for it. Proposal: Each theory gets its own basic oerview page. From those pages there are links to more advanced pages that are for people with degrees in those areas. Skeletor 0 (talk) 17:26, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm... can you give an example of an article like this? In my experience articles that would feasibly be in a general encyclopedia like special relativity do have an overview before they proceed into more technical details.

But many of the math and physics topics that have articles here are things that would never appear in a general encyclopedia, they're things that would only appear in a specialized encyclopedia of math, science, or physics. (Which is still within the scope of Wikipedia, though; there's nothing that says Wikipedia is supposed to be only a general encyclopedia, or that it needs to be like a general encyclopedia more than a specialized encyclopedia at all, for that matter.) In those cases I don't think it's really appropriate to write the article so it could be understood by the layman; it's ideal if that's possible, of course, but educating the lay reader far enough to understand topics like semigroups or Lie superalgebra or what a phonon or what entanglement distillation is would be beyond the purview of an encyclopedia, I think. That sort of thing might be more appropriate for the Wikiversity.

That actually might be a good idea for the Wikiversity too... to have pages that are paired to scientific or technical topics that are designed to direct a lay reader through learning what they need to know to understand the topic. I'm imagining a link "Can't understand this? Click here." in the Wikipedia article... that could be pretty cool if it was done well, actually... you could use templates across multiple Wikiversity pages that would cover the basics in each field and subfield... hmm. I think I might go mention that to them.

It's sort of like, if you were looking at the entry for an episode of the American television show Lost, you wouldn't expect to see an explanation of the entire television show or the season that the episode is from. Or if you were looking at the entry for Andrei Gromyko, whose claim to notability is that he was the Chairman of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union during the 1980's, you wouldn't expect to see anything but the briefest explanation of what that position entails or how it fit into the structure of Soviet government, nor a discussion of the politics or history of the Soviet Union in general. It's the same in the case of math and science except you'd probably expect to have to read a great many more articles before reaching an understanding of it just from an encyclopedia.

Anyways, I also don't agree that the people coming to these articles are likely to be the Everyman. I think it's much more likely to be a student or a scientist in a related field. --❨Ṩtruthious ℬandersnatch❩ 18:16, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

You make a good point. I know many people who use wiki for getting a basic idea of a topic but I agree now that's probably not the general use for topics like quantum mechanics and entanglement. I actually went back to one of the pages I thought was too complex and realized that I skimmed through the layman explanation by accident. However, I still think my idea has merit but perhaps as you suggested, it would do better on Wikiversity. Anyway thank you for the response. I have had people who will shut me down before they really understand what I am saying so it is really refreshing to have someone take the time to read what I said before responding. Thank you Skeletor 0 (talk) 18:15, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

(response to original post) There are many technical topics that necessarily require a lot of background to describe, but we try to assume as little background as possible. Sometimes articles on basic topics come out as too technical, but this is an issue that is being actively worked on. If you come across any article like this, please use the {{technical}} cleanup tag to mark it. I think it would needlessly divide effort to write two separate articles on any topic; detailed information of little relevance to a general reader can be relegated to its own section(s). Dcoetzee 19:39, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

One approach has been to split topics into separate articles, one for introductory purposes and another for a more technically advanced presentation. Some examples of this approach can be seen at User talk:Kenosis/Research2. ... Kenosis (talk) 05:10, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I welcome any article on a notable topic that people I trust tell me is really well-written, even if I can't follow the article. - Dan Dank55 (push to talk) 23:30, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

This is an interesting question, and I think it implicates the general question of "What is an encyclopedia for?" I actually disagree with the heading that an encyclopedia is "For the everyman." An encyclopedia is designed to be a quick reference guide, or compendium of learning on a topic. I don't think it's realistic to think of an encyclopedia as a substitute for receiving an education in a topic. Quite frankly, I don't think that anybody is going to be looking up a complex math equation on Wikipedia unless they already have some interest in advanced math. I don't see the point in dumbing things down for the general reader when it's highly unlikely that a general reader would ever consult a page like this in the first place.

I think that if you look at classic encyclopedias, such as our well-beloved 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, you would see that its content was often fairly technical, at least to the point where it required a person to be generally educated in a subject in order to understand what's going on. A couple examples: the 1911 article on Condensation of Gases, Geometrical Continuity, or Calculus of Differences.

The fact of the matter is that in any field of knowledge, as you move from a general overview towards the specifics, the content of the articles is going to be more and more difficult for non-specialists to ascertain. I don't find that problematic because, as I said, an encyclopedia is a reference guide of learning and a compendium of knowledge, not a substitution for an education.

Adam_sk (talk) 06:27, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Notability criteria for entries on free software projects?

Recently, the entry on the free software project TurnKey Linux (copy from google cache) was speed deleted, in error, as spam at the sole discretion of an administrator (Efe) who does not seem to understand the concept of a free software project.

Update: the copy of the entry which I copied into User:LirazSiri/TurnKey Linux has been deleted in yet another abuse of process by User:JzG, a zealous deletionist who has threatened twice on User_talk:LirazSiri to block me for "making waves" (I.e., expressing my opinions). I've asked him to reinstate the entry so non-administrators can judge it based on its merits, and more importantly cool down and let someone else weigh in on this matter. - LirazSiri (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 12:14, 4 February 2009 (UTC).

For the time being, the google cache for the article can be found here: [1] LirazSiri (talk) 05:34, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

After running into a wall with the deleting administrator, I asked for a review of the deletion. I believed the absurdity of arguing that an entry on a free software project (that obviously isn't selling anything) meets the Wikipedia criteria for spam, would quickly dawn on the community and the entry would be restored.

Instead the entry has jumped from the frying pan into the fire, with a handful of deletionists now arguing that though the entry is not spam, it should still be deleted because it does not meet Wikipedia's criteria for notability despite being independently sourced, the argument being that the cited sources are not significant enough.

More worrisome however is that the TurnKey Linux entry exceeds the de-facto notability standard adhered to by most Ubuntu derivatives and free software projects listed on Wikipedia, only a few of which are sourced independently.

In general, most free software is at a disadvantage here compared with proprietary software because free software projects typically don't have a budget to spend on public relations.

Does this mean literally hundreds of Wikipedia entries on free software are at risk of deletion? Is a "speedy deletion" nomination and oblivious administrator all that it takes? Also, don't count on Wikipedia:deletion review to save free software coverage on Wikipedia because there seems to be a bias there towards deletionism - following a strict and demanding interpretation of the official guidelines seems to matter to more than improving Wikipedia.

I'm writing not just to save the TurnKey Linux entry but also because I am alarmed at what I believe is the very real potential for deletionism to destroy Wikipedia's valuable coverage of all but the largest of the free software projects.

The purpose of the notability guidelines is well intentioned, but like any other guideline it is a vehicle for improving Wikipedia, not an end in itself. In many areas, especially niche areas such as free software, the matter is far from black and white and if you set the bar too high you run the risk of violating Wikipedia's ignore all rules policy which roughly states: "Any policy, guideline, or other rule may be ignored if it hinders improving Wikipedia."

Update: I withdrew my request for a deletion review so as far as I'm concerned the issue is no longer the entry on TurnKey Linux but rather the general notability of hundreds of Wikipedia entries on free software projects which could suffer the same fate. From Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2009_February_3: "Alright, that's it deletionists - you win. I give up! I hereby remove my deletion review request and will refrain from commenting any further on this matter. It seems once they throw the book at you arguing is an exercise in futility. Nevermind that the article has been around informing users for many months with no objections. Nevermind that the original reason for deletion (Wikipedia:SPAM) was absurd and that debate was never sought. Nevermind that capricious and arbitrary nature in which one free software entry is singled out over hundreds of others by a kafkaesque mob that seems eager to ignore the Wikipedia:ignore all rules policy and discounts my arguments due to the poisoned well nature of my contribution to the article or the project it describes. None of that matters because once an entry is deleted (for whatever reason) and reaches review it will be held up to standards which few entries of its kind could meet. I get it now. You win. Good day." - LirazSiri (talk) 13:05, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Could everyone who cares about this please weigh in? What do you think?

—LirazSiri (talk) 01:21, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia, being based on free software, free software ideals, and crowd-sourced development, has an innate bias of editors towards free software. Please remember that when complaining about any bias towards deletion.

However, outside of some large projects, most free and/or open source software is a niche. You said so yourself. It does not get used nearly as much as the press about it would indicate. Most open source projects do not, and will not, meet our notability requirements. It is not about money for advertising and public relations. It is about mainstream attention and documentation. A product that gets used will get attention, reviews, critics and recommendations, and independent documentation.

Wikipedia isn't the place to document most of these projects. There are other wikis devoted to documenting open source projects but I don't know of any universally respected one. Moving the Wikipedia content that has been deleted to another wiki is always an option. Miami33139 (talk) 02:12, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

The requester forgot to mention that they are a developer of the software in question, and that the sources in the article were two mentions in the Ubuntu community weekly newsletter (not independent, sourced fomr the project itself) and multiple pages from the project's website. This was a classic WP:CSD#G11 deletion of WP:COI material with no reliable independent sources cited. As you say, our bias is towards, not against, this kind of software, but software projects are no different from garage bands: no independent sources, no article. And don't write about your own endeavours is a part of WP:BAI as well as WP:COI. Guy (Help!) 08:32, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

• The Ubuntu Newsletter has a good reputation, has been operating for years and is read by hundreds of thousands every week. I don't see how the community journalists who put their heart and soul into it are any different from journalists in other media sources. I added that source in good faith because I believed it to be a legitimate reference. I find your casual dismissal of the sources in the article to fit the pattern of arbitrary and abusive callousness that led you to threaten repeatedly on User_talk:LirazSiri to silence me for "making waves" (I.e., criticizing counter-productive deletionism that does improve Wikipedia) and to delete the copy of the entry in question that I put up in my user page for non-administrators to review. Is dissenting opinion from the Wikipedia community so frightening that you would risk your reputation to crush it? Shame on you for abusing your administrator privileges. - LirazSiri (talk) 12:47, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I can totally see why you'd find it offensive for the article to be defined as 'spam', liraz - and personally I hope it hasn't insulted or stressed you out. I think it was a mistake to call it 'spam' - and fwiw I for one, am sorry that happened. The whole 'notability' thing is a bit harder to figure out - it is important that article subjects are 'notable', but obviously it's important that this is discussed / checked out openly / fairly etc. Sorry if you feel you've been caught up in something, Liraz, I'll certainly take a closer look to see if I think I might be able to help, for what that's worth :-) cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 09:35, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I've just had a look at the deletion log, and without being able to see the article, I can't really comment on whether the criteria given were actually met. But ISTM speedy deletion wasn't the right route. Moreover, A7 was given in one instance, but from what I can make out it isn't even in the scope of article subjects to which A7 applies. And looking at the deletion review, the only thing I can see that might be a valid reason for the deletion is being the work of a developer of the product, but I'm still not sure about this. Liraz,

• Are you an actual member of the TurnKey Linux development team, or just a random individual who happens to have contributed something to the project?
• How much have you contributed to the article that was deleted? Did you create the article, contribute much to it, or just add a few bits here and there?

-- Smjg (talk) 10:24, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

• Hi Smjg, I created the article and wrote the bulk of its content while adhering closely to Wikipedia guidelines. The article was written in a neutral tone (at least nobody is disputing that) and was properly sourced, though some dispute the reputability of those sources (it was the Ubuntu newsletter). I also prominently displayed my involvement with the project on my user page to promote transparency. I actually don't do a great deal of development for the project (Alon Swartz deserves the credit for that), mostly I help out with the website, documentation and answering questions on the user forums. I wish you could see the entry and judge for yourself but a deletionist administrator that has threatened repeatedly to silence me has deleted the copy I put in my user space (User:LirazSiri/TurnKey Linux). - LirazSiri (talk) 12:30, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

• This is the wrong venue for deletion discussion. It's also the wrong venue for special pleading in respect of articles on people's own projects. User:LirazSiri is one of the founders of the software project. It's a recent fork of Ubuntu, and no independent sources have been presented. This looks very much like a perfectly standard case of abusing Wikipedia to spread the word, and frankly we don't need it. Wikipedia is not the place to make something significant or raise its profile, and it is entirely inappropriate for software project owners to start discussions in multiple venues, as Liraz Siri has done, in the hope of getting the answer they want, especially when they show signs of ignoring every answer they don't want - WP:LAWYER and WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT are in play here, as so often in cases of WP:COI. One thing is for sure: I don't see a change in policy being likely in order to support allowing this user to create an article on their shiny new software project, based on sources in the Ubuntu community wiki newsletter and from their own site. And Liraz is entirely wrong to say I threatened a block for making waves, what I said was a statement of fact: that continual self-promotion may lead to blocking. It happens all the time. That's just one example of how Liraz is distorting the facts to portray this as "evil deletionists destroy wonderful content on valid project" instead of "Wikipedia nukes self-promotion by owner of project" which is what actually happened. Since Liraz has now withdrawn the deletion review request, I suggest that further discussion is pointless. Guy (Help!) 13:05, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

• Sigh. TurnKey Linux is not a fork of Ubuntu. Aside from the occasional billionaire nobody has the resources to do that. Is it so hard for you to understand what a software appliance is?
• Further discussion is still desirable. I have withdrawn my request for deletion review to neutralize exactly the kind of ad hominem attacks you have used to discount any merit in my objections to the abuse of process that took place in the speedy deletion of the TurnKey Linux entry as blatant spam which was done to save the involved administrators the trouble of going through the regular WP:PROD or WP:AFD channels. I sacrificed my own interest in the matter to allow the discussion to shift away from arguments against/for inclusion of the article I created on a free software project I contribute to and refocus on the larger issue - the notability standards for free software projects on Wikipedia. It is not black and white as you seem to make it. None of the unofficial Ubuntu derivatives (see List_of_Ubuntu-based_distributions) that have entries in Wikipedia would have met the standards you applied against TurnKey Linux and there are literally hundreds of entries (just browse casually through List of open source software packages) which do not meet a deletionist's destructive interpretation of Wikipedia's notability standards. I believe these articles add value to Wikipedia and serve its user base well. Most deletionists would support their deletion, but they're smart enough not to attempt to remove them all at once. They'll use a divide and conquer approach, singling out a handful of articles at a time until only the largest commercially sponsored projects remain. This is a real issue and I think continuing the debate is useful. - LirazSiri (talk) 14:46, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

• Right, so re-reading this, one possibility is that your article on your own project was deleted so now you want us to delete loads of others just to make a point; the other is that your article on your project was deleted and you want it back because it was clearly the evil deletionist cabal and nothing to do with WP:N, WP:COI, WP:CSD#A7, WP:CSD#G11, WP:RS, WP:NPOV and WP:SPAM, honest. Neither is persuasive, I'm afraid. Your arguments consistently and completely ignore the fact that you are writing about your own endeavours, something that has pretty much always been considered a bad idea. On top of that you are assuming bad faith of everybody who tries to tell you why your advocacy of your project on Wikipedia is a problem, the while believing and taking as gospel any part of any comment that agrees with you. I am here to tell you that pretty much every user I have seen behave like that, is now blocked. That is not a threat, it's a statement of fact. As WP:ROUGE says, Administrators have been known to oppose editors because their edits violate policy, rather than because the admins are conspiring with the Forces of Darkness. Guy (Help!) 15:00, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

• It sure sounds like a threat, and a suppressive one at that, coming from a powerful administrator such as yourself. Dressing up a threat as "a fact" doesn't make it any less abusive. Editors are entitled to their opinions you know.
• Editors may express concern for how a particular interpretation of a policy effects the well being of Wikipedia because they are genuinely concerned, rather than as part of a Machiavellian plot to destroy Wikipedia by misapplying the "all or nothing" objection.
• You know, I don't think I've ever seen so many cryptic references to Wikipedia policies and guidelines in such a short space before. Why not just link to Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines and be done with it? Strange that you accuse me of Wikilawyering. If there ever was the case of the pot calling the kettle black. Anyhow, you seem to have completely lost your neutrality and feign ignorance that opinions counter to your own exist. They do, just reread this discussion, or my talk page, or Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2009_February_3#TurnKey_Linux where at least a couple of administrators voted to overturn the decision to delete. Here's a friendly suggestion from a lowly editor - why don't you stop repeating the same old ad hominem attacks over and over and sit this one out. Cool down a bit. Let someone else share their wisdom with us. I'm sure other areas of Wikipedia need your administrative attention just as badly.
• One last thing, before you go, please restore the User:LirazSiri/TurnKey Linux entry so that those following this discussion will be able to judge the content of the discussed example entry on its merits. There is no justification for you to use your administrative privileges to censor legitimate discussion on Wikipedia policy by concerned editors. Thank you for your assistance. LirazSiri (talk) 15:43, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
  • The standards are no different to any other page: Our notability policy requires multiple, independent, reliable sources to confirm notability. Such sources are plainly not found in your article. I see no reason to think that there is a problem with our inclusion standards for free software projects. I do agree, however, that neither G11 nor A7 should have been used to delete the article -- PROD/AFD is the way to go for this kind of thing. [[Sam Korn]] ^(smoddy) 15:53, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

• Liraz, every time an editor uses the word "suppression" it raises a red flag. It is a remarkably reliable indicator of an agenda being brought to Wikipedia. Guy (Help!) 15:58, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

• Guy, are you trying to suppress the word "suppression"? Well done. - LirazSiri (talk) 16:06, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

• Absolutely not, it is one of the most reliable flags around, the last thing I want is for people to stop using it so we have to use other, less dependable cues. Guy (Help!) 18:21, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

The article was basically a short version of a website for the software. The prose may not have been overly promotional, but it only had about 2 sentences of real content, followed by feature lists and a dozen screenshots. This was not an appropriate article. My best advice: Contribute some real content and move on. Trying to get policy changed so your article can be restored is pretty much the wrongest possible thing you can be doing right now, and the amount of time you're willing to spend to get this article restored at any cost makes people question your good faith in the matter. Mr.Z-man 17:38, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

• Many Wikipedia articles are a work in progress. I seeded the article with verifiable facts and would have loved others to contribute to it.
• I've given up on restoring the article for now. Why bother. The project isn't going anywhere, and it's only a matter of time before it passes even the strictest standards for notability. Meanwhile, I don't have anything personal to gain from it's inclusion in Wikipedia, and according to the web logs (I'm the webmaster) TurnKey Linux's website only had a handful of visitors from Wikipedia in the last few months. It's really the unsanitary way in which the article was removed that bothers me the most. The arbitrary way in which TurnKey Linux was singled out of all the other Ubuntu derivatives and free software projects. The abuse of process (the article was speedy deleted as WP:SPAM, no less!). The personal attacks, an affront to my reputation implying that I am a spammer, acting out of bad faith, in conflict of interest and merely seeking to promote myself. That's what really ticked me off. It was the last reaction I expected from the Wikipedia community for contributing to a free software project. If the article was deleted in the normal WP:AFD or WP:PROD process after a consensus was reached I wouldn't have cried bloody murder. LirazSiri (talk) 04:57, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

As I commented in the deletion review, IMO this has been an abuse of process by the administrators involved here. It raises serious WP:HONESTY issues that this article was deleted under the speedy deletion criteria asserting that it was spam, yet in the deletion review all arguments in favor of deletion were presenting notability-related reasoning. Further evidence that this has nothing to do with concerns about spam is that other mentions of "Turnkey Linux" on Wikipedia were left intact and only the article itself seems to have been deleted. (see the history of List of Ubuntu-based distributions, for example.)

The article may have deserved deletion under a normal WP:AFD or WP:PROD process. The editor LirazSiri may even be be acting in bad faith, though I have seen no evidence of that to this point.

But it is a far, far more serious thing that the editors involved in this who have administrator accounts appear to be using their administrator privileges in a content dispute - using their administrator privileges to acheive an advantage in a discussion over notability so that they can save themselves the time and effort involved in the AfD or PROD that a non-admin editor would have to go through.

The purpose of admin privileges is NOT to give yourself advantages in editorial disagreements. If you find yourself violating WP:HONESTY in pursuit of administrator tasks or other Wikipedia work it's time to at the very least take a breather from exercising your admin privileges.

Despite LirazSiri's withdrawal of the deletion review I maintain that this article needs to be undeleted and placed into the normal deletion process. If, as is asserted, the topic is not notable it should be extremely easy to demonstrate that in an AfD. If the topic is notable the article should be kept and improved.

To reiterate - I don't care about the article at all, it may well deserve notability-based deletion within Wikipedia process. That's practically irrelevant, the alarming thing about this case is that there are people using their accounts' admin privileges to win editorial disputes with other editors. So far those individuals appear to be flagrantly avoiding the slightest acknowledgement of the impropriety of their actions, which indicates to me that they have no remorse and are probably willing to do it again in the future. --❨Ṩtruthious ℬandersnatch❩ 05:19, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Point out the abuse of administrator privileges. The article as it stood did not, in the views of several admins who have looked at it now, express notability; some admins might have pushed it to an AFD, others would have acted on the deletion. There is no editorial disagreement involved here; the article was deleted, a deletion review was engaged in and withdrawn and the article remains deleted. Several people are now involved in a running battle that's going to end badly, and this discussion is in entirely the wrong place at present. If you feel there's a problem with the way it's been handled, dispute resolution is thataway. Tony Fox (arf!) 06:00, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I am pointing out, and thoroughly documenting, the abuse of administrator privileges, and giving the perpetrators an opportunity to respond or ignore it all on the record. Catching malicious or overreaching administrators isn't something that can be done over a single incident, so when you spot things like this what's important is thorough public documentation.

I'm not in a dispute with anyone, which is why I don't need dispute resolution. The individuals whose behavior I've been pointing out have not even deigned to respond to me anywhere. (Except for Guy on LirazSiri's talk page, who rather than addressing any of the process or administrator integrity issues appeared to be attempting to dismiss everything I said as some sort of observation of WP:AGF towards LirazSiri - which it is not.)

I say again, I don't care about the article at all, it's the admin behavior that concerns me. The involved administrators serve my purpose of documentation either way, by responding to my specific descriptions of their malfeasance or by pointedly ignoring them or dissembling.

Unless anyone is saying that an article can be speedily deleted without meeting any of the criteria for speedy deletion there's no question that a violation of Wikipedia process has occurred here. And unless administrators have suddenly come to hold some sort of authority on notability that supersedes community consensus, this is unquestionably an abuse of administrator privileges as well. (My understanding from reading lots of policies and project pages, and observing practice, is that administrators don't have any sort of authority different from other editors: they just have a bunch of extra buttons and pages that show up when they're logged in - it's just a flag on their account, albiet a flag that is applied through community process.)

I'm somewhat surprised that no administrator has taken action to overturn these things and put the article into a standard AfD; that might say something about those administrators as well, but probably more about the system itself: you undoubtedly need to tread lightly around each other if you want to ever be able to get any legitimate work done at all. ;^) So understandably it needs to be us non-administrators who point out this sort of stuff.

(If the dispute area serves as some sort of centralized tracking mechanism for this sort of thing I'll post it there once I'm sure we aren't going to get a response here in VP. But my understanding was that there effectively is no centralized tracking area for this, you have to do lots of searching and reading to get even a partial picture of anyone's behavior.) --❨Ṩtruthious ℬandersnatch❩ 08:38, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you that the criteria for speedy deletion were not met. I strongly disagree that this was an abuse of administrator privileges, because JzG plainly considered this to fall under them. It is hardly a content dispute, unless every administrator action that involves content is a content dispute! I agree that this was not handled optimally, but it certainly was not abusive and the right decision was reached. [[Sam Korn]] ^(smoddy) 10:02, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Are you talking about some decision about the notability of the article reached outside of process? By administrators only, effectively, since (if I understand properly) they are the only ones who can delete and undelete articles? I'm not clear how that would not be an abuse of administrator privileges to have ensured that such a decision would govern whether or not the article is deleted.

By saying that this is a content dispute I'm saying that the dispute was about the notability of the article and was never about spam or some similar sort of vandalism that administrators are chartered to combat. It was a dispute over a non-administrator aspect of Wikipedia, one that any editor can have input into. Those are the sort of disputes where administrator privileges must not be used to gain advantage. (I thought this was pretty clear, I am a little bit suspicious at your suggestion that it might be interpreted as being about "every administrator action that involves content"; that seems rhetorical.)

One or more administrators decided on their own cognizance that an article was not notable; based upon a variety of evidence I presented above which has not been challenged so far, it appears that a false pretense was presented so that the article was entered into the speedy deletion process rather than the normal deletion process. So in a span of less than 24 hours, during most of which the actual article content was not available to anyone except admins, a verdict retroactively justifying the original deletion was arrived at by a small, select group of editors. Hardly the standard deletion process where every editor, not just admins, has several days to examine the content and provide input.

That is not how judgements of notability occur on Wikipedia. In this exchange it appears quite obvious to me that between LirazSiri, who would be the party arguing that the article topic was notable, and the one or more administrators arguing that the article topic is non-notable, the party in favor of non-notability obtained massive advantage through use of administrator privileges. In fact, they appear to have basically managed to avoid having to make a real case regarding notability until they had already moved the matter completely outside of LirazSiri's purview and pretty much guaranteed that any meaningful evaluation of the article's notability would only involve admins. A fact made quite clear to LirazSiri and the stated reason for why he withdrew his request for a deletion review; he gave in because he acknowledged the level of effort and frustration he would face to even get a fair hearing in an AfD, much less if he was going to try to actually preserve the article from deletion long-term. I have difficulty believing that this was not the intention from the very beginning.

Can you at least agree that this was not a fair and equitable use of administrator privileges? Also, you didn't respond to whether this was an abuse of process in forcefully routing this into the speedy delete process under false pretenses - so would that mean that in your view this is an abuse of process but not an abuse of administrator privileges?

And apart from the merits of the incident itself - don't you see that allowing things to proceed this way pretty much encourages future abuse of process along the same lines? "Whoops, I miscategorized that as spam instead of a notability problem! Shucks, it's too late." In fact this sort of thing appears to happen pretty frequently to me - perhaps that is the product of admins giving each other a pass on violating Wikipedia process in this way in the past.

And following process here would actually have taken at most a few extra moments if the evidence against notability is so overwhelming - post the AfD, act on the outcome a few days later. I think that may be why there's so much resistance to following process here - because this is actually somewhat of an edge case given the wide precedent for articles on other derivations of Ubuntu, not a slam dunk, and the individuals arguing against notability don't want to have to genuinely establish the case against it the way normal non-admin editors would have to. Why, that kind of stuff is positively plebian.

The mention of "cabal" in Wikipedia policy and project pages is not referring to some sort of secret explicitly-agreed-upon conspiracy. It's referring to exactly what you guys are doing here: a group of admins backing each other up instinctively in trying to prevent this being put through the AfD process - which supposedly will take someone only a few moments today and a few days from now because the evidence against LirazSiri's position is so overwhelming. If you think it's time that administrators should be a more trusted group freed from some of the restrictions placed on other editors, make that proposal above-board. Don't subvert policy and process to get your way.

(And I'm serious - maybe the project is mature enough or large enough that a change like that needs to occur. P.S. I'm going offline now, probably for a day or two; but as you can see I don't have any problem with making lengthy replies, so I will endeavor to respond to any and all comments directed towards me in my absence.) --❨Ṩtruthious ℬandersnatch❩ 11:26, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

LirazSiri opened a Deletion Review here which he withdrawed himself. I'm going to suggest that he withdrawn, and I'm going to suggest that LirazSiri has (finally) realized that he had little chance of defending the article successfully until he can make it meet wikipedia's notability policy, and so he has decided to wait until he can do that[2] (yeah, I know, this is my interpretation, I can't read his mind).

I'm going to suggest that it's perfectly correct that an admin speedy deletes an article that has no sources showing notability, and with a subject that doesn't appear to the admin to be notable, following the criteria for speedy deletion in the speedy deletion process.

I'm going to suggest that this discussion is a total waste of time because there was never any admin abuse or out-of-process actuations here, just an admin that used in good faith the spam criteria (G11) when he should have used the non-notable criteria (A7).

I'm going to suggest that there is no conspiracy to prevent Ubuntu software articles from reaching AFD, it's just that don't people don't bother bringing them there because they are created with very weak sources and can be speedied without overloading AFD (hint: don't write an article where your only sources are your sourceforge page and a couple of newsletter announcements on some mailing list). --Enric Naval (talk) 16:15, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Enric, I think its especially ironic that the people wanting to restore an article on a technicality are the people complaining about an abuse of process. I would suggest they read WP:IAR and WP:NOT#BUREAUCRACY. We don't go through process just for the sake of process. People are claiming that admins are deleting in a content disupte; it only became a dispute when people started complaining here. This was a straightforward deletion, not some evil plot to keep Turnkey Linux off Wikipedia. As for "a group of admins backing each other up instinctively" - did you ever consider that maybe your interpretation of how Wikipedia works is wrong, rather than everybody else being wrong? We have 855 admins, suggesting that they all instinctively agree with each other about everything as some sort of groupthink is laughable. Mr.Z-man 18:06, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

So, we can dispense with any discussion of plots or conspiracy. I have explicitly said that I am not referring to any sort of plot or conspiracy hence bringing such things up in reply to me is disingenuous and purely rhetorical. I am talking about admin integrity.

Mr.Z-man, I am certainly open to the possibility that my interpretation of how Wikipedia works is wrong. But I have very completely explained how I think Wikipedia works above in the course of a great many paragraphs, without anyone disagreeing with my statements on how WP works, so I think it's odd that rather than pointing out any flaw in my reasoning you have rephrased everything I've said into "admins all instinctively agree with each other about everything as some sort of groupthink." This makes it appear to me that you are simply trying to pejoratively re-state what I've said above so that you could decry it as "laughable" rather than to make any sincere attempt to enlighten me, say anything about the way Wikipedia works, or discuss the responsibilities that administrators have in a situation such as this. (This tactic is usually referred to as a straw man and within a debate or even casual conversation is considered evidence of bad faith; but you may have not been aware of that.)

An article being speedily deleted under false pretenses is not a matter of technicalities and is not straightforward - certainly a deletion that has to be retroactively justified after the article in question is no longer visible to the community is not straightforward at all. The abuse of process - the actions taken to by default corral the decision about the article's notability into a post-facto admin-only venue - is the entire and sufficient reason for these actions to be reversed and for the article to be placed into the normal, transparent, consensus-based deletion process.

"Not a bureaucracy" does not mean anything like "admins do not need to obey the same rules as everyone else." (And besides that, WP:CSD explicitly states that reasoning derived from WP:NOT is ineligible for justifying speedy deletions.) "Ignore all rules" does not mean "it's okay if admins forget about acting with integrity when it's convenient" nor "If a rule requires you to improve the encyclopedia in a fashion inconvenient or distasteful to you, ignore it." So neither of those rules you cite have bearing on nor provide a reason why the policy-defined process should not be followed here.

Enric, as far as A7 possibly having been a criterion for speedy deletion: that criterion as I read it is referring to articles that don't even try to claim or indicate that their subjects are notable - I don't believe that it means "an admin can speedily delete an article under A7 when it's the admin's personal opinion that the subject isn't notable." As I said above, it appears to me that anyone with a passing familiarity with IT would recognize that as either the only Ubuntu-based virtual appliance distro, or perhaps one of two documented on WP, the subject may be a distinctive open-source representative of a toolset whose use has grown explosively in IT during the last decade, so I think that someone judging this impartially would concede that there's at least a small possibility this subject is notable. Not to mention that as LirazSiri pointed out by the precedents of practice for including Ubuntu distro articles alone consensus might regard this as notable. So these aspects are possibly related to Efe's unfamiliarity with the subject or how it's been handled on WP in the past if what occurred here was Efe trying to judge the notability of the subject on his own cognizance. I think that's exactly why we must not allow subversions of process like this: the process is there so that details like these can be examined transparently, above-board and in public, by the community not just some admins, and so that the article is deleted or not deleted with WP:CONSENSUS among all users, not just consensus involving admins.

As best as I can tell this isn't some outré or distorted view of WP on my part: everything I've ever read indicates is that this is the Wikipedian way of doing things. But if anyone disagrees let them say exactly what they're disagreeing with and state how they believe WP works instead - no more generalized innuendo that I have some basic misunderstanding of Wikipedia, please.

Also, please no more of the "this entire discussion is a waste of time" attempt to unilaterally dismiss all the points under discussion here. The issue of admin integrity is a very important one: in any dispute or disagreement between an admin editor and a non-admin editor the admin basically holds all the cards - not only is there an asymmetry of capabilities due to the admin privileges but there's even an asymmetry of information: the admin can get access to all kinds of stuff other editors can only guess at or are completely unaware of.

So it is very, very important that editors with administrator accounts observe principles of personal integrity meticulously and adhere to the Wikipedian code of conduct even more closely than the average editor: the community as a whole must have confidence that administrative tasks are being handled with integrity. IMO it is extremely damaging to the prime directive of improving the encyclopedia for the community in general or a segment of the community to come to believe that the administrators cannot be relied on for some things. I certainly refrain from making certain types of contributions because it has been my experience and observation that there are some situations where you just can't expect the average administrator to act with integrity and your work will simply be destroyed without a massive investment of time and effort to attract the attentions of an admin who holds themselves to high enough standards of behavior and who can articulate the issue to his or her fellows.

(I had an admin tell me privately, actually, that many admins and other editors actually expedite that sort of thing by maintaining a network of friends and acquaintances who they can bring into a discussion through meat-puppetry. But that route is of course is solving a problem caused by integrity issues by engaging in policy-violating and somewhat underhanded behavior yourself.)

I originally wasn't going to get involved in generalities of admin integrity; I'd thought that a small amount of prodding would be sufficient to get someone to do the right thing, especially since the outcome in all probability will still result in the desired deletion. But since such a large number of admins are being evasive or appearing to not understand what I'm saying, I will get into the basic integrity issues. The up-shot is: if an article or other page that was speedily deleted has been found under consensus to have been justified with false pretenses, whether or not the presentation of false pretenses was in bad faith or good faith, the deletion needs to be reversed and the page put through the normal deletion process. In that case the admin doing the deletion simply blew it, whether intentionally or by accident, and has created a situation where it is not ethical to continue pursuing a speedy deletion by retroactively justifying the deletion with different CSD or with AfD-like criteria. For this type of situation to be handled with integrity someone would have to bite the bullet and spend a few minutes of time putting it through the normal deletion process.

(Because, if a page really, genuinely fulfills one or more CSD, an AfD ought to be a slam dunk. As I see it that's the entire point of the speedy deletion process, to expedite the deletion of articles that would be a slam dunk AfD; speedy deletion is not there to give admins a special way to overcome the objections of other editors, at all. If someone thinks that speedy deletion is there to give admins special powers or jurisdiction outside of the normal community-consensus-based deletion process, they can say so explicitly - please don't imply or indirectly assert that it grants authority to admins, say it openly.) --❨Ṩtruthious ℬandersnatch❩ 09:16, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

You are saying that we should open an AFD because someone used the wrong CDS criteria, in spite of knowing perfectly that the AFD has no chance of closing as "keep". You see, what you are proposing is jumping throught bureaucratic hoops in the name of whatever ethical or moral reason, but wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, we are writing an encyclopedia here, we are not making a perfect system of justice. If you think that the article has a chance to fulfill notability, then make a draft in your userspace and present it at WP:DRV. --Enric Naval (talk) 17:08, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

No I think he's saying that consensus regarding notability has to be reached by the general Wikipedia public as to opposed to a select group of Administrators, who's judgment may be skewed by the natural tendency to look out for members of their peer group. Ideally Administrators wouldn't regard themselves as separate peer group, and I'm sure many don't, but some some seem to do that, and there is a potential for abuse there. We also have to take into account that Administrators are much more likely to be friends and allies with other Administrators and may support them simply as a matter of good politics (e.g., you scratch my back I'll scratch yours). Also please note it is not unanimously agreed that the article does not meet notability requirements. (e.g., [3]) LirazSiri (talk) 04:10, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Bureaucracy literally means "rule by the desk." It's when the people in a government or other organization who are charged with administrating a process take unwarranted control or authority by manipulating the process and its outcomes. It's using red tape to take power - like railroading into an admin-only venue decisions that policy mandates must be made by community consensus. You and others are advocating and enabling bureaucracy here Enric, not I.

Speedy deletions made under false pretenses must be reversed. Making objections about possible AfDs that could occur subsequently is begging the question of whether the deletion of the article was policy-compliant or justified - which it was not.

"Perfect justice"? Another attempt at misdirection. You guys avoiding your responsibilities - and avoiding them disingenuously - has made it clear that this is a far larger issue than any particular article. Administrator integrity is something we absolutely must have and is not something you nor any administrator can excuse yourself from. --❨Ṩtruthious ℬandersnatch❩ 06:31, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

This discussion on abuse of process and administrator privileges has reminded of a quote by H. G. Wells: The law giver, of all beings, most owes the law allegiance. He of all men should behave as though the law compelled him. But it is the universal weakness of mankind that what we are given to administer we presently imagine we own.. If you observe the conduct of many administrators on Wikipedia you might be forgiven for perceiving that some of them think the rules and regulations are merely petty formalities that stand in the way of a more direct exercise of power. Seeking consensus and having to convince those who may have different interpretations of the law of the land is really such a bother. We know what has to be done, so please get out of our way in a hurry and let us do it. I don't think these problems are unique to Wikipedia. They're inherent in human nature. Power corrupts. It's just that in Wikipedia this gradual corruption of the intended system of checks and balances is happening out in the open. LirazSiri (talk) 13:28, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Evidently listing the article in an AfD wouldn't even require undeleting it so I have created another deletion review to propose that. Hopefully we can just do that quickly and get it over with. For my part, if that was done I would be satisfied that process and policy had been respected here in the end. --❨Ṩtruthious ℬandersnatch❩ 09:15, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Policy on Article Tags

What is the policy on tagging articles with stub, orphan, wikify etc? Where is it articulated?

I ask since I'm aware that Wikipedia:WikiProject Orphanage appears intent on tagging very many orphan articles with {{orphan}}. I'm not at all keen on this, since I prefer to read my articles sans distracting tags. Neither do I think that such tags are a great way of solving a problem - not least since that project's policy seems to be that an article needs three incoming links before the tag is removed.

According to Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2009-01-31/Orphans there are just under 700,000 articles which would qualify for an Orphan tag. 45,000 are already tagged.

My main interest at the moment is in geotagging. Wikipedia:WikiProject Geographical coordinates got flack in no uncertain terms when it tried to place a tiny tiny "needs geotagging" link in the top right of an article, in the place where a geo-coordinate goes. So the question for me: how did we get to the point where one project can (my view) despoil article by the hundred thousand, and another project not? Where did we give license to the orphan project to do as they seem to be proposing? --Tagishsimon (talk) 04:05, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

As far as stubs, see Wikipedia:Stub. With the others I don't know. I'd assume that it's related to the fact that the Orphanage places tags similar to other cleanup messages — nobody else puts something where the coords would be, but we're accustomed to seeing this type of cleanup messages at the top. Nyttend (talk) 05:12, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Main thrust of the project (at least as indicated on the project page) seems to be de-orphaning (i.e. removing the orphan tags). This suggests that orphaned articles tend to be stubs. Also (and this is just a guess) perhaps the orphan articles are accessed less often than well connected articles, and therefore the orphan tags may be less likely to disturb. Don't know about the geographic tagging, but if it occurred on articles that were more developed or more frequently accessed it might occasion more comment. Zodon (talk) 06:31, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I put higher importance on "reading sans tags" for some tags than others. We're muddying issues too much by the exuberant rubberstamp tagging. We are writing an encyclopedia first, germinating new editorship second. We do have (unfortunately) material in articles that isn't well substantiated, needs sources, and an article tag which alerts readers and editors both is justified. But orphaned articles? Come on--that's way low on most any priority list-absolute bottom on a reader's list, and somewhere close to it on an editor's list. Tag it on the talk page, let it pop on an editor "needs attention" watch list and give articles a minute's peace to say what it says without competing with the harping tags. Professor marginalia (talk) 06:48, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

What makes an {{orphan}} tag any uglier than any other tag? Also, I got involved with the project after seeing a tag on Mechanism (horology), so I believe that a case could be made to have the tags as useful tools to get more people to de-orphan articles. ErikTheBikeMan (talk) 01:02, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I was going to respond to you by saying that the guideline WP:Build the web makes a positive endorsement for things to be internally linked, hence articles need to have internal links because it's a basic directive of the project and that's why {{wikify}} and {{orphan}} need to be prominent.

But I found that the guideline directing us to "Build the web" has been merged with a styling guideline. So you may be right: if "Build the web" isn't a basic directive, I'm not sure that {{wikify}} and {{orphan}} deserve such prominent mention as displaying a header notice in an article; maybe they ought to just add the article to a category. So I started a discussion Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(links)#Non-style_aspects_of_this_guideline to ask what's going on with that. --❨Ṩtruthious ℬandersnatch❩ 06:27, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Legal and illegal threats

I've long been familiar with our no legal threats policy, but today I began to wonder: what about illegal threats? Earlier today, I ran across a murder threat made by an IP; I reported it to both the IP's owner (a school) and to local police, and the situation has been resolved. Still, I wonder — if making legal threats is grounds for blocking, what about making illegal threats? Should we give warnings, block immediately, not give any warning and just watch what the user is doing, something else? Although this specific situation is resolved, I'd appreciate advice anyway. Nyttend (talk) 05:04, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Illegal threats? Legal threats mean threats on litigation or legal grounds. What exactly are "illegal threats"? :)

In all seriousness though, I think both types of threats should be treated the same way in regards to purely on-wiki procedure: indef accounts, block IPs for appropriate duration, etc. —kurykh 05:10, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Indeed no legal threats. There are some essays how to deal with this Wikipedia:Responding to threats of harm Wikipedia:Threats of violence It seems you have followed the advice by notifying police. Good luck with this Arnoutf (talk) 19:04, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

There is very little consensus around how threats of violence should be handled; the opposing viewpoints are essentially that we have a social responsibility to protect the threatened on one hand, and on the other hand this is also seen as an off-wiki matter, tracking down victims is difficult, law enforcement varies widely from place to place, and there is a belief that Wikipedia shouldn't assume liability. Dcoetzee 19:36, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

R,B,I with some exception to the "I" if it seems credible enough to report it. –xeno (talk) 19:39, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, there is strong consensus among experienced administrators - The Wikipedia:Responding to threats of harm (which is shortcutted with WP:SUICIDE and WP:VIOLENCE ) is the best practice which has actually been consistently used by experienced administrators and the Wikimedia Foundation when threats of violence or suicide are made on-wiki.

Attempts to make it a policy, or to make something else a policy, failed miserably due to wider community disagreement. However, we do not need community agreement with the Wikipedia:Responding to threats of harm essay to make it approved best practice. It is approved best practice, and is what people do. Please follow it, if you come across such threats. What Nyttend did was proper and correct under the circumstances. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:31, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Libel --> BLP

I'm going to suggest that Wikipedia:Libel has been slightly superseeded by BLP and should be redirected to that as a result. Has the benifit of reduceing the total number of policies.Geni 03:56, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't always agree with Geni on BLP matters, but in line with the gradual trend of taking policy pages more seriously, I'm in favor of demoting any policy page that people don't read any more. Does anyone still read WP:Libel, or do you always turn to WP:BLP, WP:ATTACK or WP:Attack page instead? - Dan Dank55 (push to talk) 00:42, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

One could probably get away with redirecting attack page and libel to BLP, if one encouraged others to participate in such discussion; presumably here? --Izno (talk) 03:07, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

The scope of Wikipedia:Attack page ("primarily to disparage its subject") is not limited to people, living or dead. Of course the same thing could be said about most of the rules covered in BLP policy but good luck enforcing them in any other context. — CharlotteWebb 16:32, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Hmm... noted. Couldn't one merge libel to attack page then, at least? --Izno (talk) 00:30, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Template blatantly violates policy

It seems to me that Template:COI is a flagrant violation of "Comment on content, not on the contributor". Either the lead of WP:NPA should be changed significantly, or Template:COI should be deleted. Or perhaps both should be changed somewhat. Template_talk:COI#Does_this_template_violate_WP:NPA.3F PSWG1920 (talk) 18:21, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

But a COI can affect content so if an editor has a COI it is potentially a content issue, particularly as it relates to neutral POV. – ukexpat (talk) 18:32, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

That is an example of where "comment on content, not on the contributor" seems to fall short. It's a bit like saying "hate the sin, love the sinner". Sounds like a simple enough distinction, but in practice, not so much. PSWG1920 (talk) 19:25, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

"Comment on content, not on the contributor" should be understood in context of WP:No Personal Attacks. Please read about what a personal attack is. This phrase is only a reminder of one way to avoid making personal attacks. It doesn't sum up policy or guideline. Saying that someone has a conflict of interest is not a personal attack. Nor is saying someone is a jerk because he has a COI - that's a violation of WP:CIVIL. -Freekee (talk) 00:00, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I diagree that a COI tag violates anything. If a person has a COI, then it should be pointed out. Just as we point out disruptive behavoir and the like. Now if the person is accused of COI and that is not the case, then that action violates policy. How do we tell this. Let the drama begin on the approriate board. --Tom 15:34, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps "Comment on content, not on the contributor" should be marginalized or qualified in WP:NPA. Currently it's portrayed as summing up the entire page, and is often used in warning messages. PSWG1920 (talk) 17:59, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

If COI of a web author could be positive tested, this could be a useful template, sort of Really Knowldedgeable Guy Was Here. Unfortunately, history tells us that sometimes the knowledgeable guys are not what they tell the world... which makes the whole point pointless. The template should be used, ideally, only for properly evidenced COI cases (arbcom case level, or at least an absolutely noncontroversial checkuser level). Remember, once it's in it stays there until deletion or a nearly complete rewrite. NVO (talk) 17:39, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I've never really seen the point of {{COI}}. If the article is {{Nonnotable}}, {{POV}}, {{unbalanced}}, an {{Advert}}, needs {{cleanup}} or {{References}}, or whatever, we have plenty of templates to say what the real problem is. But if it's a perfectly fine, NPOV article that just happens to have been written by someone with a potential conflict of interest, what is the point in marking it with a {{COI}} banner? Anomie⚔ 03:15, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Do essays that represent a minority view, even if only held by one or two editors, belong in the WP namespace?

WP:Essay states that an essay represents the opinion of one editor or a group of editors, with no mention of where they belong, other than to say that an author may choose of their own volition to keep an essay is userspace if they don't want anyone else editing it. According to that policy, an essay representing even one sole editor's opinion may stay in WP space. I'm wondering if this policy needs to be changed, since there seem to be a number of editors who feel that essays in WP space need to represent a broad consensus.

This issue has come up at WT:NOMORE. The essay is unpopular, with only one or two supporters, with the majority of editors involved repeatedly trying to redirect or move the page. I've reverted two such attempts so far. If the consensus is indeed that essays need wide support to remain in WP space, I think the relevant policies need to be changed to reflect that. Equazcion •✗/C • 08:27, 6 Feb 2009 (UTC)

We want to move the proposed policy, which is a pointy disruption by a known problematic editor, to his account userspace so that the page consensus for redirect to creep can take place. Anything in nomore that should be added to creep can then be discussed there for addition. Creep has more support and a much larger crowd of editors to review any additions. Verbal chat 08:34, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

It's not pointy and it's not a disruption. The essay's existence doesn't disrupt anything, and it doesn't fit the definition of WP:POINT at all. The author made an essay because he has an opinion he wanted to express. There is no apparent ulterior motive for the essay. Equazcion •✗/C • 08:38, 6 Feb 2009 (UTC)

Seems OK to me, and I think not liking an essay as a reason to do something to it would be not good. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 08:40, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

← I just want to stress that I'm not here to merely discuss this one example of the problem (the issue at WT:NOMORE). I think the larger issue of which essays belong in WP space needs to be addressed, because this is a problem I've seen repeatedly in the past. WP space seems to have a few patrollers who object when certain things appear there, namely essays or policy proposals that don't have much chance of gaining broad support. According to present policies there is no reason to remove such things from WP namespace, but I've seen this cause enough repeated problems that I think it's time to discuss it head-on. Equazcion •✗/C • 08:59, 6 Feb 2009 (UTC)

PS, this is unacceptable. You must wait until this has been discussed before imposing your opinion on policy. Equazcion •✗/C • 09:50, 6 Feb 2009 (UTC)

... as is this. The issue is already being discussed from a policy standpoint here. Let's not splinter the discussion. Verbal, discuss the issue or don't, but either way, stop taking shortcuts. Equazcion •✗/C • 17:59, 6 Feb 2009 (UTC)

Use WP:MFD if necessary. Step one would be to open a discussion on the Wikipedia talk: page recommending userfication to a particular user and/or deletion. If there is consensus to move it out of Wikipedia: space but there is no consensus as to exactly what to do, or if the consensus user-space owner doesn't want it, then take it to WP:MFD with the pre-canned consensus as the recommendation. If there is insufficient debate but you personally want it moved, see if the primary editor will move it to his user-space. If not, then go to MFD with either a recommendation to userfy or delete, but realize the result may be "keep." davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 18:31, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, better the project namespace than the article namespace. --MZMcBride (talk) 18:33, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I know what to do when there's a dispute about where something belongs in general, but I was hoping to clarify the policy on essays so that such disputes would have some ground to stand on. Those arguments currently don't seem to get anywhere aside from ending up in a poll. Some people ask why it should be moved when it does no harm and no policy requires moving it, and some ask why not userfy it if only one or two people support it. If we had a policy to clearly answer the question, those disputes could arrive at some actual conclusion. Equazcion •✗/C • 18:54, 6 Feb 2009 (UTC)

I think that there's been a gentleman's agreement that frivilous or fringe essays wouldn't be kept in project space, to be backed up by MFDs if necessary, but I don't know that it's been written down anywhere.

If it's really only two editors who support it, then that's pretty fringe. I don't see this as having been frivilous, having read it, and I don't think any less of its writers for having done so. But perhaps it should migrate to userspace. I don't think this needs a stick (MFD) at this time though. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:21, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

How about this guideline written by 8 editors? Should it also be moved to userspace?

Should we change essay template to say that it takes 3? 4? 12? editors for it to be in mainspace instead of 1 or more?

ps. on its talk page, I counted 4 people in support of wp:nomore (half way to the guideline! :O) 212.200.240.232 (talk) 23:37, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Let me say why I oppose this strongly. If wp:nomore was in userspace, user Equazcion would probably never contribute to it, and as you can see now, his contributions have clarified lots of thoughts expressed in the page and have made it much better. Forcing an essay into userspace prevents it from being improved by other editors. 212.200.240.232 (talk) 08:04, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

The substance of the essay has a lot more to do with it than its number of supporters. If an essay has a valid point to make, no matter how contentious, then it's okay to keep it in project space, particularly if it is clear about the opposing position. If an essay is wildly inaccurate and misleading, and doesn't reflect the actual practice of anyone who hasn't been banned, it doesn't. The question we should be asking about an essay is, "would someone who reads this essay find it useful or interesting, whether or not they choose not to follow its advice?" In this particular case I think the answer is yes, but the essay should also avoid a prescriptive tone, at least until it's proposed as a guideline or policy. Dcoetzee 08:50, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

End the policy/guideline/essay distinction

The more I observe discussion about/based on policies, guidelines, essays and various other bits of documentation that serve a similar purpose, the more I get the feeling that trying to maintain a distinction between these various classes of page, without even any clear procedure for deciding which is which and why, is just a cause of endless trouble. We should simply have a set of pages - it could even be merged into the Help namespace - which give editors advice about how to behave in a manner that is approved by the community. Good advice should be included; bad advice should be excluded; simple as that. Disputes about what goes in should be resolved cleanly with an AfD-like process (less the bureaucracy). Proposal pages can appear in the WP space for a time, but if they don't get consensus they should be deleted or moved to user space (or marked as failed, but not allowed to live forever as essays). What do we think?--Kotniski (talk) 09:36, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Thing is that policies are things you have to do, i.e. you'll get blocked/banned if you don't. Guidelines are things that some group of people at some point (possibly back before anyone still active had even heard of Wikipedia) agreed you're supposed to do, but probably won't get blocked if you don't, at least not the first few times. And essays are just any old nonsense that someone wrote and stuck in the project space, and which every other contributor to the project might disagree with, though in practise, usually represent widely-held opinions that there is too much disagreement about to make a policy or guideline -- Gurch (talk) 13:26, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Ah, policies are things you have to do (or get blocked) — except when you don't. Guidelines are things that you really should do – except when you really don't – and you probably won't get blocked if you tread on them, unless you're generally being a dick about it at the same time.

A 'guideline' may also be any policy that was created in the last few years, after it became impossible to get consensus for any new policies. It's easier to accept a compromise 'guideline' label than to fight the stubborn and pigheaded wikilawyers. (Under that definition, a guideline is any sound policy that a few loud wingnuts will argue with when their conduct comes to AN/I.) For this reason, the clever policy wonk will now – wherever possible – attempt to introduce new policy by changing, amending, or expanding an existing policy rather than by starting from scratch.

Essays range from convenient shorthand for long-standing arguments, to explanatory notes on policy, to venting by vested contributors, to cruft that nobody got around to userfying. In value, they run the gamut from 'helpful exposition on an aspect of Wikipedia philosophy and process' to 'WP: shortcut that can be used in an argument in order to save the parties the trouble of thinking'. (Some essays probably fall into both categories simultaneously.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:48, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the fact that we don't know ourselves what the significance of these distinctions is, and the multitude of possible descriptions within any one category (as Ten accurately illustrates), are just more reasons to abandon them.--Kotniski (talk) 15:03, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

if you think that the average policy dispute could be "resolved cleanly with an AfD-like process" then either you've seen too few policy debates or too few AfDs. The whole point of raising certain community norms to policy or guideline status is that it lifts them out of the total lottery which is your average one-off debate on WP. I'd certainly welcome a more proactive approach to promoting those parts of essayspace which are widely held as gospel and weeding out the rest, but what you're proposing is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 15:38, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

What baby? What you're suggesting about essays is exactly what I have in mind; but having done that, how do these "gospel" essays differ from guidelines, or indeed policies? Given that all rules have exceptions, there is only a continuum of absoluteness, and it's specific statements rather than whole pages that take their place on that continuum. (AfD-like was perhaps not exactly what I meant, but it would be something involving neutral adjudication like we get at AfD but rarely get for policy debates.)--Kotniski (talk) 16:33, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I've been thinking about this for a little while, and here's what I would do. Policies should be limited in number, consisting of WP:3RR and its exemptions (i.e. WP:Vandalism, WP:BLP, WP:COPYVIO, etc.) That would be a far more operative definition of a policy - something which can be immediately enforced (by anyone) without the enforcer risking sanctions, provided what is being removed is a clear-cut violation of one of those policies. That would also likely mean that WP:IAR did not apply to policies, which it currently does.

All the other policies, including NPOV, V, and OR would be demoted to guidelines. What are currently the main content policies seem more like goals. Attempts to rigorously enforce them by summarily removing from an article all material which violates said policies will often be seen as disruptive. In practice, then, they are not policies. PSWG1920 (talk) 17:19, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I've created a new policy template to mark policies which are 3RR exempt. PSWG1920 (talk) 00:21, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

One policy promotion track: User essay, essay, guideline, policy. User writes an essay. A couple of others say "that's cool" and he moves it to Wikipedia: space. He links to it in the "see also" line of a few guidelines. It starts getting cited in edit summaries. Someone decides to rewrite the text in the form of a guideline. After much use, someone proposes promoting it to a guideline, and everyone says "I thought it was a guideline already" in the discussion. After admins start blocking people for violating this guideline repeatedly, a few admins start treating it as policy. Someone objects at AN that they were blocked without warning for not following a guideline. After a discussion, the guideline gets promoted to policy. OK, things never really happen this way, but it's possible. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 18:37, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Don't forget {{Infopage}}s. That obscure little step between Essay and Guideline that things hide out in. MBisanz ^talk 18:46, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

For the moment I got scared, and thought there may be more of those than guidelines, but luckily, there are only few [4]. 212.200.240.232 (talk) 19:45, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

There are about 700 essays in WP space [5] and 500+ in user space [6] 212.200.240.232 (talk) 19:48, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

For the "why not?" side of the debate, m:Instruction creep would appear to be relevant here. --Kralizec! (talk) 21:14, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't support this proposal; we've been evolving in the other direction for a while now. - Dan Dank55 (push to talk) 23:22, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Right, and look where it's getting us. Do you really think Wikipedia will function more effectively as a huge bureaucracy where people spend their time arguing about the rules and what they mean, instead of getting on with making a better encyclopedia?--Kotniski (talk) 09:34, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

• Hmmm... A Wikipedia with no rules. I can't really see that working out. I see it being sort of like communism -- on paper it sounds progressive and utopian, but it wouldn't be practical. Everyone would think they could do whatever they want. Then we'd have to add notes to those "information pages" to say something to the tune of "Well, they're not rules exactly, but in most cases it's a good idea to follow them, cause if you don't you could get blocked." Then they'd basically be rules that we wouldn't call rules, and the ones you couldn't get blocked for would need to be excluded -- similar to what we have now. Even if that didn't happen, many essays present opinions contradictory to guidelines and policies, so if you call them all the same thing, no one would know what they're actually supposed to do.Equazcion •✗/C • 00:43, 7 Feb 2009 (UTC)

Well precisely, we would eliminate those contradictory essays into user space. And I'm not advocating "no rules", just an end to false, misleading and pointless-controversy-generating distinctions between types of rules. (Very few of the rules are things you would get blocked for violating anyway.)--Kotniski (talk) 09:34, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

(Reply to original poster) The distinction is clearly discussed and defined at Wikipedia:Policy, and I find it quite useful. It's a good measuring stick for the amount of consensus behind the position. And I find it especially useful that a new user can literally go through all the policies and read them, because there aren't too many of them, and those are the most important things to know. Dcoetzee 08:57, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I might be convinced if the distinction really were as you say it is, or even if it possibly could be as you say it is (it can't of course, because the amount of consensus is a function of statements, not of whole pages - and what you say is not what it says at WP:Policy anyway). But it's not; nor is your second statement accurate, because (a) by the time he'd read all the 40 or so policies he'll probably depart Wikipedia in a disillusioned haze; and (b) the policies aren't always the most important things to know (much of the most important stuff is in guidelines like the manual of style, or on help pages or even essays). --Kotniski (talk) 09:27, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't think user would depart Wikipedia, but i think while he gets familiar with all 40 or so policies, a few will be changed, so he may get discouraged in keeping track of changes... 212.200.240.232 (talk) 09:34, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Maybe it would help to know where this is coming from. User:Kotniski is involved in a dispute over a guide that is being used as policy. The example that User:davidwr gives where users say "I thought it was a guideline already" is accurate in that it shows that much of it is based on perception and not the actual. The disputed guide WP:ICONDECORATION is being used as policy. Anyone can click on "What links here" and find many discussions where the guide is referred to as "policy," and the advocates for the guide don't bother to correct the misunderstanding. It suits the advocates for the guide just fine that it's seen as a badge of authority. It appears that Kotniski is looking for a distinction that is based on the actual distinctions and not the perceptions. I doubt there will ever be a concise distinction because perception makes a big difference when considering actual results.

But if I may offer another imperfect attempt at an actual distinction, much of it is based on the language used in the document. I'd say that an essay is an informative persuasion, a guide is suggestive advice, and a policy is authoritative commands. An example of the language in each:

1. "Here's a problem because blah blah... Here's a good goal to strive for," Essay.
2. "To solve this specific obvious problem, specifically avoid this and try doing that." Guide.
3. "Specifically don't do this and just do that, because we say so. Trust us. It's better this way." Policy.

This is not to say that policy doesn't contain persuasion and suggestions. A policy will most likely contain commands that don't require persuasion. But a guide shouldn't contain commands, especially without persuasion of why one should adhere and consensus that the command should be there. If an editor gets blocked because they didn't understand why a policy is making a command, it's not as serious as if an editor got blocked for not adhering to a command without persuasion that any newbie editor may have put in a guide with little or no consensus. Oicumayberight (talk) 17:33, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

problem with map

File talk:BH municipality location Istocno Sarajevo .png 92.241.138.145 (talk) 00:31, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Is hiding script assisted edits against policy?

I've noticed a few people who have modified their twinkle or other script related tools so as that they will be counted as regular edits and not script edits. Is this against Wikipedia policy?Smallman12q (talk) 01:53, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

You mean deactivating the little edit summary advertisement, like "(HG)" for Huggle or "(TW)" for Twinkle? There's no rule against removing those. In fact most scripts have an explicit option to edit or remove that. Equazcion •✗/C • 02:00, 7 Feb 2009 (UTC)

That is all I wanted to know=P.Smallman12q (talk) 13:16, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Users doing such a thing should say they did it if they ever ask to become an administrator. Some people include the # of manual edits in their criteria, and an inflated number that is discovered during the RFA will need to be addressed. Getting out in front of it with something like "I changed Huggle so it wouldn't say Huggle, I'm guessing 60% of my edits are with Huggle" will help defuse anxiety. It's pretty obvious from contribution logs if someone is making rapid-fire edits. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 03:50, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Frankly, I don't see why the decision of some RFA voters to use silly criteria necessitates the need for an editor to reveal that they have made such a trivial change. As you say, it is pretty obvious who is making rapid edits and who isn't. Let the voters do their own homework. Resolute 04:13, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

^Agree. Equazcion •✗/C • 04:28, 8 Feb 2009 (UTC)

I wish that were the case. I wish I had the time to look closely at all RFA candidates. People like shortcuts. If you are questioned and give a reasonable response, it shouldn't matter. At best, you would make it harder for someone to support you because they would have to devote more time to figuring out how many manual edits you made, and they might say "to heck with it" and just not participate in the RFA. Or, they might wait for someone else to report a number, a number that might underestimate the number of manual edits. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 04:53, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I think of all the criteria to consider at an RfA, the number of manual vs. script-assisted edits should be the least of a voter's concerns. The advertisements that scripts add to edit summaries might be switched on by default, but they aren't required by any stretch. They're just an extra feature for the convenience of the user, in case he or she wants to take pride in their use of the script. I think it's a bit dramatic to stress the fear of "being questioned" and having to give a "reasonable response" if one has decided to switch them off, as if it could end up in scandal cause they "hid" this "crucial information" from the public. As Reso put nicely, if voters choose to make a big deal out of something so ridiculous, that's their problem. Equazcion •✗/C • 05:12, 8 Feb 2009 (UTC)

Truth be told, if a voter is weighing their support vs oppose on a candidate based on the tool used to make an edit rather than the quality of the edit, then I would question that individual's fitness to judge whether a candidate is fit for the mop. Such tools exist to aid our ability to maintain the encyclopedia, their use as a measure of an editor's ability is inconsequential. As always, editors should be viewed based on their judgment in contributing; everything else is static. Resolute 06:51, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

People are responsible for their edits regardless of if they use a script, so I don't think it matters. Chillum 05:42, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Discussion on guidelines for "China" vs. "PRC" usage

Please join the new discussion about the possible establishment of Guidelines for "China" vs. "PRC" usage on the People's Republic of China article --Cybercobra (talk) 06:59, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Policies and Guidelines re Linguistics

Reliable sources and language articles

Articles about language belong to the category Linguistics. I have noticed that many editors are not aware that Linguistics is a distinct academic field. That is, they naturally assume 'Linguistics' is the domain of Literature professors, Educational bodies/Boards of Education, or published grammarians. This is understandable, since modern Linguistics doesn't hit 50 until next year.

How best to redress this in the policies and guidelines, and what is the process for getting it done?

Thanks for your replies. - Ddawkins73 (talk) 12:58, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

few editors imposing a new guideline on community without any discussion

Wikipedia talk:Advocacy. Please contribute with your thoughts. To my observation that WP:Policy has been violated, I got a reply WP:IAR. I don't have energy to argue with the editor, so others will have to get involved if the imposed guideline is to be discussed. 212.200.240.232 (talk) 17:12, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Is your complaint against the proposed guideline, or is it that the process to gather consensus needed for adopting new guidelines is incomplete or not being followed? If the former, maybe work it out on the guideline talk page... if the latter, I'm not sure what the right forum is. I'm restoring it to proposal status because it does not seem to have much notice, discussion, or adoption yet.Wikidemon (talk) 19:21, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Note: A tangential discussion was moved to User talk:Jehochman#discussing anonymously --Equazcion •✗/C • 17:20, 9 Feb 2009 (UTC)

A proposal to remedy en:wp's chronic incivility

Wikipedia talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#How_to_raise_the_tone_of_the_wiki

Incivility is standard on en:wp. Actual personal attacks are routine and expected. This drives people away from the wiki and leaves a hard core of borderline sociopaths as the only people willing to put up with each other. This is despite Wikipedia:No personal attacks supposedly being hard policy.

Precis: the AC to warn that it expects better behaviour, and then to start knocking heads together. Likely to start with the admins, as the ones most expected to set a good example.

Commentary at the above link (or even just "great idea!" or "terrible idea!" will likely be read by the AC.

Let's make this encyclopedia project suck less to be involved with. - David Gerard (talk) 20:06, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I think one way is not to describe Wikipedians as borderline sociopaths :D

Ddawkins73 (talk) 20:18, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Hey, that would include myself! But I can learn better, so everyone else can too ;-p Any thoughts on the idea itself? - David Gerard (talk) 20:30, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

You mean only sociopaths? :P 212.200.240.232 (talk) 20:20, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. More seriously, I presumed action would be taken in such cases as the proposal outlines. Ddawkins73 (talk) 20:28, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm hoping it's a workable proposal. It takes very little incivility to turn n00bs off Wikipedia altogether, and just a sustained bit more to put off a regular. The culture of routine actual personal attacks (see WP:ANI in the last week, for example) is worse - David Gerard (talk) 20:30, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

The point of civility is it leads to more discussion and a better chance that people will be able to benefit by polite constructive criticism. We could institute a WP:NN "no nagging" rule that once you have called something to someones attention you should wait a decent interval to allow them to digest your points before going into full shoot to kill mode, wikistalking, posting negative comments about them on other peoples pages, harrassing, and reverting everything they write. Rktect (talk) 20:32, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Arguing over "civility" seems to be fractal in its infinite detail in practice. I suggest starting with actual chronic personal attacks, of which there is no shortage - David Gerard (talk) 20:42, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any culture of routine personal attacks here. When there is one, it's called out and quelled, usually, in my experience. Maybe this pattern would seem more apparent with some specific examples. Equazcion •✗/C • 20:49, 8 Feb 2009 (UTC)

Read WP:ANI, and then look at the style of editing and edit summaries by regulars outside said board - David Gerard (talk) 20:54, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

If the problem is mainly at ANI, a place with people used to acting as "the complaint department", then I'd say a gradual buildup of incivility was inevitable, as it is in similar real-life institutions. You might make better headway with your proposal by focusing specifically on that forum and others like it. I don't think this is as general a problem on Wikipedia at large, as you've implied. Equazcion •✗/C • 20:57, 8 Feb 2009 (UTC)

It's certainly an excellent place to start. But the proposal - to, y'know, actually enforce WP:NPA - applies there probably as strongly as anywhere, if not more strongly. Look at KPBotany's comments on the above link. Professionals and experts don't want to come here any more - David Gerard (talk) 21:00, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

All I would say about any forum rules is that they make life easier for moderators. That is, good to be able to say "no arguing" and just block/ban where necessary. Good for dealing with extreme cases.

I can't see it affecting general behaviour. 99% of people know how to behave, and if they are uncivil it's because they want to be. Whether as a one-off, sometimes, or in general. I can't comment further because I'm quite new and I've generally found people to be more calm and dispassionate than I am. Businesslike, even. Ddawkins73 (talk) 21:15, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

As a general comment, there is a lot of room for improvement, but Wikipedia is nonetheless one of the most civil forums on the Internet that is truly open and public. AN/I is a place of considerable incivility, but anyone who resorts to that there turns others off and hurts their own case. It's probably a good thing that we see people's true stripes there. Also, AN/I functions as place where people can take their complaints about each other things that, if true, are actionable but if untrue would be a personal attack or WP:AGF violation if voiced elsewhere. Using the legal system and courts as a case in point, you have to give people a safe haven to resolve their differences, rather than punishing them for bringing up accusations that may be incorrect or inactionable, but are nevertheless made in good faith. Wikidemon (talk) 21:22, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

The thing to remember about AN/I is that the non-admin editors who post requests for intervention are usually already involved in a heated dispute before they post there... From the POV of the person being complained about... that the complainer went to ANI is seen as an escallation of the debate... it can even be seen as being a form of a personal attack in itself (ie... so and so attacked me by complaining to the admins). It is natural that discussion at ANI starts off with a high level of animosity. Admins do their best to calm things down, but that is not always possible. Blueboar (talk) 15:27, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

change to Wikipedia:Copyright

see Wikipedia_talk:Copyrights#shorten_the_page.Geni 22:17, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Time to think about article content inclusion?

I wonder if it's time to address one of the biggest holes in Wikipedia guideline space, the threshold inclusion criteria for when content that otherwise meets Wikipedia's policies and guidelines ought to be put in an article. Repeated attempts to do this in the past failed, and the closest we ever got was a statement that content that is otherwise compliant (i.e. passes WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:BLP, WP:COPYVIO, WP:MOS, WP:NOT, etc.) may be included if it is relevant to the notability of the subject of the article.

Although we haven't been able to define it quite, I think there's broad consensus that there is some encyclopedic standard for when material does and does not belong in an article. This comes up often when people add trivia or extraneous details, and sometimes things of a POV-ish nature that are not really related to the subject at hand (e.g. coatrack, criticism sections, etc). Someone might remove the content as trivia, then it gets reverted with a note like "please do not remove sourced content". When these things come up it's often hard to point to anything where we say that it takes more than sourcing or even notability - for a verifiable fact to appear on a page it has to belong on that page.

People often use the word "notable" for this, which causes confusion with the WP:N guideline. It seems to translate to something like "has enough reliable sources to indicate its significance and relevance to the subject of the article".

I'm wondering if there's a place to say just that, or we could create one in a guideline or essay. Namely, although there is no single standard for what belongs and what does not belong on a page, content has to be significant enough to be encyclopedic, and relevant to the subject of the article, in a way that adding it to the article increases the reader's encyclopedic understanding of the matter at hand. Something like that.

Please forgive if this is a perennial proposal or already exists.Wikidemon (talk) 09:26, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

We have a Wikipedia:Writing better articles style guide that includes a section telling us to stay on topic. In essence, it says what you want, but it's very unspecific. —JAO • T • C 11:01, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

My rule of thumb is: Is it encyclopedic/relevant/on-topic, and is the space used by the new information the "right amount" given the information's importance and the other items in the article. If I'm adding a tangentially-related item to a short article, it might stick out like a sore thumb, so I'm better off not adding it. If it's a long article, it might fit in quite nicely. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 15:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Clarification

it seems that there is confusion among some editors about how pages are becoming official guidelines and policies.

WP:CONSENSUS is very clear about it: In the case of policies and guidelines, Wikipedia expects a higher standard of participation and consensus than on other pages.

However, Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines#Proposing_guidelines_and_policies unfortunately doesn't mention "high participation".

I have witnessed recently few cases where editors thought that simply posting a thread here was enough exposure, even though very few editors responded to it (or even saw it?).

I think that participation part from WP:CONSENSUS should be restated in the Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines#Proposing_guidelines_and_policies section.

212.200.240.232 (talk) 15:29, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

• Endorse as this has been the consensus for over a year. However, it should be advertised to avoid shouts of hypocrisy. Pick a place to centralize the discussion and I'll endorse there as well. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 15:45, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure which centralized place I should post to, but it should definitely be posted at talk pages of above 2 policies.212.200.240.232 (talk) 17:51, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Note: A tangential discussion was moved to User talk:Jehochman#discussing anonymously --Equazcion •✗/C • 17:13, 9 Feb 2009 (UTC)

• Endorse. People don't seem to be taking that stipulation too seriously, but I think it's pretty important. Equazcion •✗/C • 17:13, 9 Feb 2009 (UTC)
• Endorse. Absolutely vital. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 17:22, 9 February 2009 (UTC)