Talk:Death of Michael Jackson: Difference between revisions
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Lets list all the tribute shows/specials in all countries we can find as well as all newspaper articles(photos especially). --[[User:Cooly123|Cooly123]] ([[User talk:Cooly123|talk]]) 20:20, 27 June 2009 (UTC) |
Lets list all the tribute shows/specials in all countries we can find as well as all newspaper articles(photos especially). --[[User:Cooly123|Cooly123]] ([[User talk:Cooly123|talk]]) 20:20, 27 June 2009 (UTC) |
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* Let's not (photos especially, as they'll be copyrighted). <b>[[User talk:Black Kite|<font color="black">Black Kite</font>]]</b> 22:28, 27 June 2009 (UTC) |
* Let's not (photos especially, as they'll be copyrighted). <b>[[User talk:Black Kite|<font color="black">Black Kite</font>]]</b> 22:28, 27 June 2009 (UTC) |
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== When will Conrad Murray get his own wikipedia entry? == |
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Will wikipedia allow the creation of an entry specifically for / about Dr. Conrad Murray ? |
Revision as of 00:59, 28 June 2009
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Death of Michael Jackson article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Michael Jackson Start‑class High‑importance | ||||||||||
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This article was nominated for deletion on 25 June 2009. The result of the discussion was speedy delete. |
Merge proposal
I'm boldly archiving this as there is no consensus likely due to the recentism of his death. I suggest seeing where things are in a few weeks but realistically this has been top page news worldwide so a preponderance of news sources are avalable and the death - with the reactions to it - certainly meets notability threshold. -- Banjeboi 13:14, 27 June 2009 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Merge
Don't merge
This template must be substituted.
This template must be substituted.
This template must be substituted. Comments
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Edit proposal
{{editsemiprotected}}
Request
Please edit the introductory sentence from "Jackson died aged 50 at his rented home in Los Angeles" to "Jackson died aged 50 at his rented home in Los Angeles, California" as to also include the link(s) to the location.
- I added and wikilinked California. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 09:03, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- Delete request*
Please delete the breaking news part regarding TMZ.com since the death of a pop star has absolutely no connection with the "free" commercial of a news-celebrity-gossip portal. It is outrageous.
"Breaking news
News of Jackson's death was broken by TMZ.com, a Los Angeles-based celebrity news website. Jackson was pronounced dead at 2.26pm, and 18 minutes later at 2.44pm, the website posted: "Michael Jackson passed away today at the age of 50."[5]"
- Delete request*
Updated PostMortem Music Sales
A lot of the information under "Record Sales" is already outdated. "Jackson's record sales increased dramatically in the hours following his death. His album Thriller climbed to number one on the American iTunes music chart, and another eight made it into the top 40.[26] In the UK, where he would have performed in less than three weeks, his albums occupied 14 of the top 20 places on the Amazon.co.uk sales chart, with Off The Wall topping the chart."
This article has information a bit more recent, http://www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/content_display/industry/e3i344418db676344f0d77ca668d6cc4a43
But I think things are going to keep changing over the next week or so. I'm not complaining about this or anything, but just saying that whoever is interested in editing the article should be on the look out for these new figures. They seem amazingly noteworthy.
Children
- Comment: 3rd para, 2nd to last sentence says Jackson "fathered" 3 children. They are not his biological kids, so I don't think that's an accurate description of how the children came to be.
- We don't say whether he was the biological father or not. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 05:04, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Question?
Just curious, I know the wiki project has rules. Why is there articles about artists who basically released an album, had no success, got some small publicity in a local paper, and yet that qualifies them to have an article? Yet I am no fanatic MJ fan (I did like his old stuff) and yet this article about his death is considered controversial even when it is all over international media for the past 24 hours? There seems to be something really lacking in the rules of Wiki when somebody nobody heard of gets an article and yet a person who was known all over the world and who's death gets non stop coverage is denied?76.118.224.35 (talk) 05:48, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- I think it's people not looking ahead. We're bound to end up with separate articles on the death, the funeral, the investigation, and on and on. I suspect it's the editors of Michael Jackson who want to see the traffic directed there instead, though I can't think why, because it's making a dog's breakfast of a featured article. Far better to direct it to a new page. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 05:51, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- What a strange confluence of edits, allegedly by two different accounts [1] [2]. WWGB (talk) 06:08, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
RE: spelling "Demerol" not "Demorol" (first paragraph), pls revise.
- Thank you! SlimVirgin talk|contribs 06:03, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Any question? When will Michael Jackson's remains be cremated? What date and time?
After his death, Michael Jackson's remains will be cremated on unknown date and time.
Don't we know about his cremation on date and time?
- Jackson wanted to have his body preserved in plastic [3]. WWGB (talk) 07:46, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
I knew it would be something crazy...--Frank Fontaine (talk) 17:57, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- There's no business like showbusiness, like no business I know. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:01, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Writing
Guys, just a note about the writing (not that anyone's going to pay attention, but here it is anyway). Five things mainly:
- 1) There is no need to put everything in quotes. X said that she is "devastated," while Y said she, "couldn't stop crying," and Z said she "couldn't believe it." Totally unnecessary and hard to read.
- 2) There is no need to quote every single celebrity who has said something meaningless, because that will shortly be half the planet.
- 3) There is no need to state the obvious e.g. if X asked for a moment of silence in Congress, there's no need to write, "X spoke about Jackson and asked for a moment of silence." Of course they spoke about him first. They wouldn't jump up and simply announce a moment of silence.
- 4) There is no need for "allegedly," or "reportedly" all the time, when it doesn't matter. If Taylor herself said she was packing her bags when she heard, that's what she was doing, so far as anyone will ever know, and who cares anyway. If Madonna said she wanted to dance with him in London, that's what she wanted.
- 5) No need for citations for every single point, unless it's something likely to be challenged, or a (necessary) quotation. See WP:V. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 08:07, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Record sales
9 Michael's albums are on first 9 positions. Someone could wrote bout it cause there's only information they're in top 40.
Record sales on Amazon.com
please on Amazon.com you can see that MJ records occupy 16 places in the top 16 please write it, thanks here is the link
- I had noticed that myself before you pointed it out. However, the information at that link is updated every hour, so I don't know if it's really a valid source. Grundle2600 (talk) 18:09, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- If the stats are qualified as to time posted, it may be ok. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:10, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- I agree. But how do we post a link so readers can verify it for themselves? Even right now, positions 15 and 16 are no longer held by Jackson. Grundle2600 (talk) 18:20, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- Make a note in the citation of the date and time of retrieval and that the content at the link is ever shifting. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:24, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- I agree. But how do we post a link so readers can verify it for themselves? Even right now, positions 15 and 16 are no longer held by Jackson. Grundle2600 (talk) 18:20, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Nearly 12 years since a death received such huge attention from media and public
Shouldn't something in the article be added to to point out the fact that there hasn't been anywhere near as much attention given to a death since that of Diana, Princess of Wales? How about the fact that it virtually stopped coverage of Farrah Fawcett's death? Those points are relevant to understanding what a massive event Jackson's death was. Information yes (talk) 12:04, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- Diana was a royal and the death of such an icon was not expected and the grief was a matter of course. Jackson on the other hand was a recluse.(redacted per WP:Talk) Her Imperial Highness (talk) 13:04, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- We should let reliable sources lede in this regard, same as with album sales and other notable information. This helps us remain NPOV. When the New York Times, or similar news outlet, notes this as big as Diana's outpouring then we state "_____ noted this as ____". -- Banjeboi 13:50, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- A "recluse" does not plan 50 concert performances as Jackson was planning. Grundle2600 (talk) 18:05, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- That's WP:OR. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:11, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- A "recluse" does not plan 50 concert performances as Jackson was planning. Grundle2600 (talk) 18:05, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
something to read
More goulishness for those who want to know. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:50, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- It says, "... investigators conducting the autopsy were also surprised at how healthy Jackson was."
- "Healthy"?
- He's dead!
- That's not "healthy."
- Grundle, they were noting a healthy state of only a part of the body at time of death. Please hold back on the personal observations. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:12, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
iTunes Sales
I made this pic from screen shots of iTunes USA, I feel it better conveys the massive sales at present. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MJ_ITUNES_SALES.jpg Mc8755 (talk) 14:53, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- It also fails at least two criteria of WP:NFCC and has no fair-use rationale even if it didn't. Black Kite 15:45, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Could someone show mercy and unbold the descriptive article title in the lead, per MOS:BOLD (please see also WP:BOLDITIS). 84.44.143.160 (talk) 15:41, 27 June 2009 (UTC) Done--Unitanode 15:53, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks! 84.44.143.160 (talk) 17:40, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Public figures' statements
I really don't have a opinion, either way would be fine to me. Is the statements made by these artists—with respective reliable sources, obviously—necessary? Sparks Fly 16:33, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think they are. They, along with the family section that reads like an obituary, make the article seem more like a memorial than an enyclopedia article. That this article is essentially one big puff piece, though, doesn't bode well for them being trimmed. Rnb (talk) 16:35, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- I think a few of the statements can be kept. The rest should go on WikiQuote. Pyrrhus16 16:44, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- Set-up a wikiquote farm for these - there will be hundreds only a handful of which should be of any help here. -- Banjeboi 17:17, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think these celebrity and other quotes have any encyclopedic worth at this time, other than perhaps Liza Minnelli saying, "When the autopsy comes, all hell's going to break loose..."AP.. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:24, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Removed for now (Quotations from public figures)
This section contains too many or overly lengthy quotations. (June 2009) |
Following Jackson's death, many public figures gave press statements.
"I am heartbroken. My prayers go out to the Jackson family, and my heart goes out to his children. Let us remember him for his unparalleled contribution to the world of music, his generosity of spirit in his quest to heal the world and the joy he brought to his millions of devoted fans throughout the world. I feel blessed to have performed with him several times and to call him my friend. No artist will ever take his place. His star will shine forever."
"I am absolutely devastated at this tragic and unexpected news. For Michael to be taken away from us so suddenly at such a young age, I just don't have the words. Divinity brought our souls together on The Wiz and allowed us to do what we were able to throughout the 80's. To this day, the music we created together on "Off The Wall," "Thriller" and "Bad" is played in every corner of the world and the reason for that is because he had it all…talent, grace, professionalism and dedication. He was the consummate entertainer and his contributions and legacy will be felt upon the world forever. I've lost my little brother today, and part of my soul has gone with him."
"I can't stop crying over the sad news. I have always admired Michael Jackson. The world has lost one of the greats, but his music will live on forever! My heart goes out to his three children and other members of his family. God bless."
"I feel privileged to have hung out and worked with Michael. He was a massively talented boy man with a gentle soul. His music will be remembered forever and my memories of our time together will be happy ones."
"I can't stop crying, this is too sudden and shocking. I am unable to imagine this. My heart is hurting. I am in prayer for his kids and the family."
"A friend of Michael's for the last 35 years, I call on people around the world to pray for him and his family in the hour. I have known Michael since we were both teens, worked with him, marched for him, hosted him at our House of Justice headquarters in New York, and we joined together to eulogize our mutual idol, James Brown. I have known him at his high moments and his low moments and I know he would want us to pray for his family."
"I was so excited to see his show in London. We were going to be on tour in Europe at the same time and I was going to fly in to see him. He has been an inspiration throughout my entire life and I'm devastated he's gone!"
"My heart... my mind...are broken. I loved Michael with all my soul and I can't imagine life without him. We had so much in common and we had such loving fun together. I was packing up my clothes to go to London for his opening when I heard the news. I still can't believe it. I don't want to believe it. It can't be so. He will live in my heart forever but it's not enough. My life feels so empty. I don't think anyone knew how much we loved each other. The purest most giving love I've ever known. Oh God! I'm going to miss him. I can't yet imagine life without him. But I guess with God's help ... I'll learn. I keep looking at the photo he gave me of himself, which says, 'To my true love Elizabeth, I love you forever.' And, I will love HIM forever."
"I can't find the words right now to express how deeply sadden [sic] I am by Michael's passing. We have lost a genius and a true ambassador of not only Pop music, but of all music. He has been an inspiration to multiple generations and I will always cherish the moments I shared with him on stage and all of the things I learned about music from him and the time we spent together. My heart goes out to his family and loved ones."
I've removed these as causing more harm than good. Reach consensus in which, if any, are encyclopedic and worthy of including otherwise this certainly will be a WP:quote farm. -- Banjeboi 18:06, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- The quotes from Quincy Jones and Paul McCartney should be put back in, as their relationship with him is much older and solid than that of the other people. Grundle2600 (talk) 18:11, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- Quotes from QJ and PM may be ok. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:14, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- Quotations from people should be introduced and explained in the prose through the personal or professional relationship with each of those people. Quotations by other people should be removed, as they are a natural source of perennial contention and since their encyclopedic value is very near nil. 84.44.143.160 (talk) 18:18, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- Yes. Note the professional relationships in the text. Cite them if challenged. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:25, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- Truth be told, Taylor's quote could also be ok, they go way back. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:30, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- I agree here. Certainly, Taylor, McCartney, and Jones should stay, but the others? Not so much. Unitanode 19:03, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- I have changed my perspective, and now beleive these should not be included, in the manner they are presented here, because
- Wikipedia editors are not judges of the level of personal relationships between one individual and another.
- The body of the text does not currently convey a need for these quotes.
- Each one of these quotes may be better suited elsewhere.
- It is uneccessary to list every celebrity that comments on Michael's death. Wolfpeaceful (talk) 18:44, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
I think some may be helpful if trimmed way back and integrated as we would any other article. Much of this seems filler, no disrespect intended, and pretty much what you would expect someone to say. It may be wisest to see what other things occur over the next few days and what mainstream media report as notable people in Jackson's life. Quincy Jones would be obvious for their long-term working together. I would use "To this day, the music we created [...] is played in every corner of the world [...]. He was the consummate entertainer and his contributions and legacy will be felt upon the world forever." -- Banjeboi 18:59, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
--just make sure that the mainstream media that you pull from are verifiable sources, and not The Onion. And as you said... "as we would any other article"... which is why I said "these should not be included, in the manner they are presented here". I do agree that "some" could be integrated... but how many is some? Two, three, four, five? I would think that three (if they are well integrated and trimmed) is a fair compromise. Also, when I made mention of them being more suited to other articles... the one that stood out in my mind was Macartney's quote... it would be a good match for the Say, Say, Say article in my opinion. Wolfpeaceful (talk) 19:48, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- I think people here are forgetting that the man was married to Lisa Marie Presley. However long, her statement holds more than the rest. QJ should be included too, and maybe Liz Taylor as they were so close. Mc8755 (talk) 22:27, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- I saw that we just include the quote of Al Sharpton, because he was the one to first talk to the press about the death of Jackson. --User:Jonverve/sig2 23:19, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- I just added the quote from Al Sharpton and details about him talking to the media first, with this edit here. If you don't like it, please comment on your thoughts, and don't just delete it. User:Jonverve/sig2 23:32, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Tributes
Lets list all the tribute shows/specials in all countries we can find as well as all newspaper articles(photos especially). --Cooly123 (talk) 20:20, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- Let's not (photos especially, as they'll be copyrighted). Black Kite 22:28, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
When will Conrad Murray get his own wikipedia entry?
Will wikipedia allow the creation of an entry specifically for / about Dr. Conrad Murray ?
- ^ http://www.mariahdaily.com/news.shtml
- ^ http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/25/quincy-jones-michael-jackson-death/
- ^ http://perezhilton.com/2009-06-25-the-queen-of-pop-grieves-for-the-king-of-pop
- ^ http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/paul-mccartney-mj-was-a-talented-boy-man/
- ^ http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/diana-ross-my-heart-is-hurting/
- ^ http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/25/al-sharpton-pray-for-jacko/
- ^ http://www.britneyspears.com/2009/06/in-memory-of-michael-jackson.php
- ^ http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/25/justin-timberlake-we-have-lost-a-genius/
- ^ http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/25/justin-timberlake-we-have-lost-a-genius/