Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cities

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Thanks. — Headbomb {^ταλκ_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 09:52, 15 March, 2009 (UTC)

{{Greater Los Angeles Area}}

If anyone monitoring this page would kindly put {{Greater Los Angeles Area}} on their watchlist i'm sure people interested in reading about this area would appreciate it. Thanks, Amerique^dialectics 20:06, 4 July 2009 (UT

Notable residents, revisited

I would like to bring everyone's attention to these edits. The user is just slapping an OR tag on (seemingly) every notable residents section s/he comes across. To me, this seems a tad disruptive. I myself have placed cleanup tags on articles before, but never close to this amount of articles. Killiondude (talk) 20:39, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

See also this edit where he added it to WP:USCITY guideline. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:45, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

It could be argued having unverifiable nonsense to an encyclopedia is a tad disruptive Fasach Nua (talk) 20:50, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

(ec) It may be unhelpful, but is the user wrong? For example this edit was to a section which was completely unreferenced. Notable people sections are a perennial problem that goes unaddressed. They are constant targets of vandalism and can we guarantee they are comprehensive? I propose removing them from from settlement articles and creating separate articles for notable people from district. Nev1 (talk) 20:51, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't know about articles that I don't watch, but probably the majority of my edits to communities that I watch (i.e. most communities in eleven states) consist of removing nonnotables and nonresidents. How hard is it to keep these sections clean of nonnotables and nonresidents? I really don't see the problem of them not being comprehensive — many lists aren't comprehensive, and instead of saying that non-comprehensive lists are problematic, we have at least ten templates that notify the reader about non-comprehensive lists. Moreover, we do create separate articles in many cases, but not in all. For example, it would be rather absurd to create a separate list article for Ruidoso, New Mexico (to take one of Fasach Nua's examples), unless there are many more notable natives. Nyttend (talk) 21:00, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Just add the notability exclusion/inclusion criteria to the text of the article Fasach Nua (talk) 21:04, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree that a source should be provided within the city article itself confirming the user is significantly connected to the city (not just a link to a WP article that may or may not confirm that fact), and any individual that fails WP:BIO shouldn't be on the list. But if the list is relatively short, I see no need to split them into their own articles. I'm also not sure what to make of your "is it comprehensive" argument for an encyclopedia that is by it's nature a perpetual work-in-process, that seems a non-issue - or am I missing something? --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 21:05, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

(after ec) I'm not a fan of notable residents sections, but IMO it is not worth getting pointy about. This edit was to a fully referenced list. Most of the time, the linked article contains references validating the inclusion. If not, the list can be edited. Unless the guideline is transformed into completely un-wiki-like, newbie-biting, rigidity, these lists will always be with us. For whatever reason, readers seem to like them. older ≠ wiser 21:06, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Do we need an reference for the exclusion criterion? Fasach Nua (talk) 21:09, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean. older ≠ wiser 21:33, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Bkonrad, a quick sample of the articles affected shows that the vast majority contained one reference in the notable people section or none at all. However, a couple that are properly referenced have been tagged. As for removing the sections, I don't suggest removing them from wikipedia altogether but moving them to a separate article where they can be used as a lightning rod for vandalism. Nev1 (talk) 21:13, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

The supposed problem is pervasive. Most such lists that I come across are completely unreferenced. It makes little difference to me though, as most of the time the information is reasonably accurate and can be verified with trivial effort. I think Fasach Nua's main point is not that the lists are unreferenced or poorly referenced, but that there is no clear criteria for inclusion/exclusion, which is a different sort of issue. older ≠ wiser 21:33, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

If you come across lists where it's a "trivial effort" to source them, I sincerely hope you have added sources. Without sources, the information is useless. From personal experience, a lot of unsourced notable people sections contain incorrect entries and it's not always easy to find sources. They're an unnecessary time sink in articles. If a person is actually important to a place, they can be mentioned in other parts of the article. Nev1 (talk) 21:44, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't, because as far as I'm concerned not a significant problem. So long as sources are one click away in the linked articles, I see little benefit and an increase in clutter to add redundant referencing. If the linked article for a person makes no mention of a place, it should be summarily removed. Don't get me wrong, I'm not firmly opposed to including references for lists of notable people in the place articles, but most of the time these lists are of little interest to me. older ≠ wiser 22:00, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm disappointed that you seem to have such a poor understanding of why WP:V is so important. If information is in an article, it needs to be directly supported by references otherwise it's useless. The average reader won't know that the source is in another article (and can you guarantee it is?) so the references are meant to be present in every article. Have you checked the articles of the people in question? Often they're pretty poorly sourced too. But I suppose if it's such a trivial effort then someone else can do it. Nev1 (talk) 22:09, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

It's not that I don't understand -- it's more that I simply have little interest in editing these these lists of people. If people don't know that more information lies a click away on a linked article, these readers are unlikely to get much use out of footnoted references, which are considerably more arcane and confusing that normal wikilinks. older ≠ wiser 22:23, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

It appears now that Fasach Nua (talk · contribs) has become "bored" with the discussion, and has simply gone on with adding {{ORList}} to articles rather than wait for any consensus to develop here. This seems disruptive or pointy to me - but before reverting and/or warning the user, I would like other opinions if that is appropriate behavior at this point given this open / unresolved discussion still taking place. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 22:02, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

If Fasach Nua restricts edits to sections that are unsourced, rather than sections which do not explain what inclusion/exclusion criteria are, they are not violating any policy. It's not particularly disruptive marking an unreferenced section as a breach of WP:OR so nothing can be done about that. Nev1 (talk) 22:05, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

But the tag the user is applying has as its first sentence "This is a list with no clear inclusion or exclusion criteria" - the tag itself seems to be more related to inclusion/exclusion criteria, rather than OR issues.

Even if the tag were more directly linked to OR, I would argue that even if unsourced, several, such as this edit, shouldn't be tagged as being original research as they clearly are not. More accurate would be {{refimprove}} or {{unsourced}} on the sections. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 22:14, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I think it could be construed as original research. Who says they're notable? If no one, then it's whoever makes the edit, which is original research. A fuss is being kicked up here about the wrong issue. Are these tags detrimental to the article? No. Do these articles need improving? Yes, they all do. So how best to do that. Make the inclusion criteria for notable people clear. Nev1 (talk) 22:18, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Granted, I used an off-topic example - it wasn't from a city article. I disagree with your interpretation of if it amounts to OR or not, but I'll leave it at that as it's a discussion for a different forum.

On city articles, the guideline at WP:USCITY#Notable natives and residents seems relatively clear: "any famous or notable individuals that were born in, or have lived for a significant amount of time, in the city". If they are notable or not is conveniently defined already under WP:BIO guidelines. Unless stipulated otherwise here, that guideline resolves the definition for us. And, from reviewing prior discussions on this talk page and at WT:USCITY, that seems to be the prior compromise consensus - although clearly a disputed position and not unanimous.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that the inclusion criteria needs to be improved and restricted; as currently worded, I feel that WP:USCITY#Notable natives and residents is overly permitting on who to list. Personally, I would rather see it defined as who is notable for their connection to the city (ie: both meets WP:BIO, and had a hand in making significant contributions to the development, way of life, or public perception of city - although those terms would need clearer definitions behind them) - the current wording is, to me, too broad as it permits anyone who is both notable and coincidentally lived in or was born in the city. But that's how it's currently worded.

If we can get a discussion and consensus going on improving that guideline, I fully support it - but from what I can see, prior efforts have seemed to die out, defaulting back to the prior status-quo of the current wording. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 15:17, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

There's actually a current discussion going on at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cities/Guideline#Natives and residents to try and figure out if and/or how to adjust the guideline. Folks might be interested in checking that out. Dr. Cash (talk) 20:18, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

There was a discussion on this over at the Village Pump a few weeks back. One of the concerns I raised was how to determine whether someone's connection to the city is notable. How would be decide if the connection is "meaningful" without resorting to original research? For example, Michael Jackson was born in Gary, Indiana, but notable connection did he have to Gary other than being born there? One suggestion I had, which I will offer to this group, would be if the city/community itself boasts, proclaims, or otherwise capitalizes on its connection to a notable individual, no matter how tenuous, than that would be an additional criterion for inclusion. Example. Senator John Thune was born and went to high school in Murdo, South Dakota. He no longer lives there and became notable years after having left the city. However, Murdo has a sign outside of town claiming it as the "Hometown of Senator John Thune," even though he currently lives in Sioux Falls. So, my criteria would be 1. is the person notable. 2. was he/she born/raised/lived in the city for a significant part of their childhood/adult years 3. if connection to the city is simply one of birth, does the city claim the person as a native. If the answer to all three is yes, then they should be included. Just my two cents.DCmacnut<> 18:47, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

• Now Fasach Nua is deleting the entire "notable residents" sections from articles, without any discussions on the individual talk pages. Since there doesn't appear to be a consensus here, that appears to be the disruptive deletion of what is often sourced content. I see that as a problem that may even justify a block. I've left a note on the user's talk page asking for an explanation.   Will Beback  talk  20:48, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. As there's no consensus for the removal, and the user is aware of that, and as the user stopped discussing the issue here and has not discussed it on any article talk page, I viewed the continued blanking of the sections as vandalism at this point and used a standard warning template. Granted, I likely should have used plain text instead of templating, but he should know better anyway. His actions also appear to be bordering on edit warring at this point. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 21:10, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

After my note he went on to edit war over the material, o I've blocked the account. While unsourced entries and non-notable individuals are a problem, he was going after sourced enties of people with undisputed notability, depsite the explicit lack of consensus.   Will Beback  talk  21:24, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Alamogordo, New Mexico is at Peer Review

Alamogordo, New Mexico is undergoing peer review. I have polished the article, with special attention to the guidelines at WP:USCITY, and would appreciate any comments regarding this or any other aspect of the article. You can comment at Wikipedia:Peer review/Alamogordo, New Mexico/archive1. Thanks. --Uncia (talk) 23:34, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

The peer review is closed. The article is now a good article candidate. --Uncia (talk) 03:34, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

FAR for Ann Arbor

I have nominated Ann Arbor, Michigan for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here.

GA reassessment of Northeast Philadelphia

I have conducted a reassessment of the above article as part of the GA Sweeps process. I have found some concerns with the article which you can see at Talk:Northeast Philadelphia/GA1. I have placed the article on hold whilst these are fixed. You are being notified as the talk page has a banner for this project. Thanks, GaryColemanFan (talk) 06:14, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I have conducted a reassessment of the above article as part of the GA Sweeps process after the original re-assessor had to drop out. I have found some concerns with the referencing which you can see at Talk:Northeast Philadelphia/GA1. I have placed the article on hold for a further seven days whilst these are fixed. Thanks. Jezhotwells (talk) 02:21, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Culture of Akron, Ohio

This article was recently created by an editor who means well and has done a lot to the Akron, Ohio article. My concern here is excessive amounts of trivia. One section, for instance, lists virtually every instance where Akron has been mentioned or featured in television and film. I would appreciate any help from other experienced editors at the Talk:Culture of Akron, Ohio page or in the article itself. Thanks --JonRidinger (talk) 21:22, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Lead Photo for Berlin

We seem to be having some trouble choosing which photo to use for the lead image for the Berlin article. See the discussion here. Basically one group feels that a photo from 2006 is more artistically pleasing. The other group feels that since the 2006 photo shows the Palace of the Republic, it is out of date and should be replaced with a photo from 2009. Please provide further input. Thanks! imars (talk) 19:42, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

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WikiProject District of Columbia

I am looking for advice regarding Wikipedia:WikiProject District of Columbia - Several users there said that they do not wish to have the project's scope cover DC suburbs (using any definition), and one user suggested starting a parallel DC area WikiProject. I argued that having the DC project extend to NOVA and the Maryland burbs would make the project stronger; other US city projects cover suburbs (the exception I can think of is NYC, which covers a city of 8 million). Anyway, would the Cities project recommend having parallel DC only and DC area WikiProjects? Why or why not? WhisperToMe (talk) 21:45, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

What is the advantage? Since DC is not covered by a state project, a WikiProject is important. But what is the advantage of double coverage for the outlying suburbs to have more than one "place" Project? They are already covered by their various state projects. Student7 (talk) 21:14, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Etymology section

In the guidelines to writing about cities and countries we tend to provide suggestions that information about the origin of the name / the etymology is given in the history section, and - if there is enough material - that a sub-section can be created. In usage some editors prefer that the etymology details be placed in their own section - which is fine if there is enough data to justify it, and the information may be found reasonably interesting or useful to the average reader. But the question now arises as where to place a stand alone Etymology section. I often find them placed as the first section - ahead of the History section - and there is a part of me which can see the logic of that. However, there is a greater logic in having the history section first, as that is the first section that readers would expect - it is generally what encyclopedias do, and the history always comes before the name (I suppose there may be settlements and countries which were named before they existed, but these must be very rare!). Where etymologies are usually placed in dictionaries and references books is at the end of the entry - and that may be where someone interested in the etymology may be expecting to look. There may be other options as to where to place the etymology, and it would be useful to get some opinions and revisit the guidelines to make things clearer. As a starting point, here are four suggestions:

1. Etymology - details of the origin of the name should be placed in the History section; if there is sufficient material an Etymology subsection should be created within the History section. (If the subsection grows so large as to justify a standalone section, that section to be placed after/before the History section / at the end of the article.)
2. Etymology - details of the origin of the name should be placed in the History section; if there is sufficient material an Etymology section should be created and placed after the History section.
3. Etymology - details of the origin of the name should be placed in the History section; if there is sufficient material an Etymology section should be created and placed before the History section.
4. Etymology - details of the origin of the name should be placed in the History section; if there is sufficient material an Etymology section should be created and placed at the end of the article.

I will copy this to other related WikiProjects. SilkTork *^YES! 10:24, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm having a hard time imagining a situation where an "entymology" section would grow so long as to warrant the creation of its own section. Given that a place's entymology is arguably a part of its history, it seems only logical that one would find that information withink the History section. If the History section is long enough to be broken down into subections then it ought to be one of its own subsections. Personally I would prefer to see it first (get it out of the way). Shereth 14:12, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Examples: Hong_kong#Etymology, Cyprus#Etymology, and Cardiff#Etymology. SilkTork *^YES! 14:27, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

If any city would be worthy of an entomology section, it would be NYC for its cockroaches ;)--Louiedog (talk) 14:44, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't see why any of those could not happily exist as a sub-section of "history", but to me it's really a case of "six of one, half a dozen of the other" :) Still, if I was magically writing all of our style guidelines I would have them all be made a part of the "history" section. Shereth 17:33, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I would prefer having one rule for placing etymology. That way, no arguments. And for Loodog, there is already a section, "Wild life" for NYC!  :) Student7 (talk) 15:40, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

If the focus is on the linguistic etymology of the name of the city, that is a distinct topic from the history. If the focus is rather on how the city acquired its name, that is a subsection of history. I'm not suggesting this is a good example, but consider Kalamazoo, Michigan#Name origin and Etymology of Kalamazoo. Or many of the items in Category:Placename etymologies. older ≠ wiser 16:05, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Other examples where the topic is more than the history of the name, including theories of origin, linguistic meanings, etc (with various ways of putting the info in sections or not): Buffalo, New York#Name origin, Washington, Tyne and Wear#History "Toponymy", Paris#Etymology, Kolkata#Name, Beijing#Names, Lima, and, a non-city example, Oregon#Name and its main page, Oregon (toponym). Pfly (talk) 18:25, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Location maps

As I've looked around, I've noticed some weird ways of showing where a city or town is located. The cities in Massachusetts that I deal with such as Melrose, Massachusetts have a map that makes it very easy to identify where the city is with respect to Massachusetts as a whole. Since most people know the shapes of the states and how they relate to the country as a whole, this is a very good way of depicting the location. There seems to be a ton of articles such as West Hempstead, New York, that show a census map. For someone who does not live in the area (or any of the surrounding communities) that map is useless. There is no landmarks to use to gauge the position. If there isn't already a convention for these maps, I urge this project to draft one. The map like that of Melrose is imo the best type. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 03:10, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

The word "largest"

Using this word automatically to mean population should stop IMO. "Largest" could also mean area. The word should be modified unless it is clear in context. "Largest area" or "biggest population." Student7 (talk) 16:28, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

"Sister City" or "Twin City"

Which is the better one to use, "Sister City" or "Twin City"? Both are used and to me it doesn't look good (See London, New York City and Odessa for three different). Is there any consensus on which one to use?