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::Benlisquare, thank you for commenting my post above. My word "void" may have been too provocative to you. I apologize if the word offended you. However I still believe the votes with a reason simply indicating the neutrality or NPOV are not productive to this discussion. ――　[[User:Phoenix7777|Phoenix7777]] ([[User talk:Phoenix7777|talk]]) 10:08, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
::Benlisquare, thank you for commenting my post above. My word "void" may have been too provocative to you. I apologize if the word offended you. However I still believe the votes with a reason simply indicating the neutrality or NPOV are not productive to this discussion. ――　[[User:Phoenix7777|Phoenix7777]] ([[User talk:Phoenix7777|talk]]) 10:08, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Just wanted to note that unlike the Liancourt Rocks, nobody uses the term Pinnacle Island. No, I don't say that in absolute terms, but the numbers show that the name's use is extremely rare... so rare that few people will even recognize it. From what I recall, there's already been a vote on the nomenclature before; I'm sure if we look in the archives, we can fish it out. Are we going to have cyclical debates on the dispute every time the passions of fellow netizens are inflamed about the islands? Feel free to apply Wikipedia rules all you want, but let's not construe it to further individual bias.--[[User:ScorchingPheonix|ScorchingPheonix]] ([[User talk:ScorchingPheonix|talk]]) 05:42, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


===IPs edit warring===
===IPs edit warring===

Revision as of 05:42, 13 September 2010

Page move

I have revered the page move from Senkaku Islands to Diaoyutai Islands. While the mover gave the comment "no objections on the move". I see no recent discussion per WP:RM and previous one Talk:Senkaku Islands/Archive 3#Requested move resulted to stay at Senkaku Islands. --Kusunose 23:03, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I asked for comments at here and there's no comments for 15 days, plus the link you pointed took place more than 2 years ago. The move is based on WP:COMMONNAME, as shown by # of Google results for those 2 terms and also by various governments not involved in the dispute. OhanaUnitedTalk page 01:11, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You mean "Citation needed"? A wrong title, I should say. It's unnoticeable. The section title should have been "Page move request". Oda Mari (talk) 04:29, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
My first point was still valid, as I first did ask for more citation before deciding to to add a move request along. OhanaUnitedTalk page 05:05, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I believe Senkaku Islands is better in terms of WP:COMMONNAME, WP:NCGN and WP:NCON. For # of Google hits, my search does not agree with your observation, for "Senkaku Islands" [1] (26,400 pages) outnumbered "Diaoyutai Islands" (6,850 pages)[2]. In any case, Search engine test is hardly conclusive; see also WP:NCGN#Search engine issues for problems for foreign geographic names.

WP:Naming conflict suggest some other methods for determining the common name. For reference works, Columbia Encyclopedia and Encarta uses Senkaku Islands (on Britannca, search for Diaoyutai and Senkaku produses no hits). For international organisations, this is a page hosted on un.org about a report authored by UN. Secretary-General and China; it says "concerning Diaoyu island" in the summary but it uses "SENKAKU ISLANDS" in subjects for classification. I also remember the United Nations Cartographic Section used "Senkaku Islands" in List of Territories but both links are currently not available. --Kusunose 08:45, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I went to you the 3 UN links you pointed. The latter 2 links, as you mentioned, are dead and cannot verify your claims. The first you you provided[3], did you even bother to check the contents, not just the title/summary of the pdf, to ensure that it supports your argument? When I click on the link to English on that page,[4] the pdf opens a UN document that supports my viewpoint. You just gave us reference that contradict your own views (facepalm). OhanaUnitedTalk page 23:02, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
CIA Factbook uses Senkaku Shoto. Select Japan and see the map. And CNN site search result is 255 Senkaku Islands and 155 Diaoyu Islands Oda Mari (talk) 04:56, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The document itself is authored by China and it naturally supports the Chinese point of view. I'm aware of that. My point is that the UN's indexing/categorization system uses Senkaku Islands over Diaoyutai or Daiyou Islands, recognizes it as a common/standard name. --Kusunose 12:18, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Pinnacle Islands

I added a tag as even the title of the article is not npov.andycjp (talk) 12:35, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm suspicious over the claim that the UN endorses Senakaku as a common name. The UN doesn't seem to take a position in this contentious topic. Kusunose, could you provide more details on it?
While the Columbia Encyclopedia filed the article under "Senkaku", it clearly mentions different common names for those disputed islands and I don't see the Columbia takes any position in suggesting which one is more common. In international media, it seems to be more common to use both diaoyu and senkaku interchangeably. BBC simply tag the island with "Diaoyu/Senkaku" on the map[5].
While it is true that the search result, which shows 245,000 results on Diaoyu islands[6] and 47,700 on senkaku islands[7], doesn't mean that diaoyu is more common than senkaku, it hardly supports senkaku is a common name too.
According to WP:Name, the encyclopedic article titles are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality. Wikipedia is not a place for nationalists to claim disputed islands and I don't see either senkaku or diaoyutai will achieve the required degree of neutrality. I suggest moving the article to Pinnacle Islands until there is a other better neutral choice.

--Winstonlighter (talk) 13:29, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you're going to do moves like this, please make sure you are doing it correctly. You moved the article to Pinnacle islands (lowercase "i") when it should have been Pinnacle Islands (capital "I"). You also didn't check the box to move all the talk archives as well, so they became inaccessible after the move. These issues have now been fixed as I've move the article to the correct title and moved the talk archives. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 15:23, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks joe for the help. hope the current title will permanently settle this issue. --Winstonlighter (talk) 15:33, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure it will be solved at least as much as the Liancourt Rocks issue. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 15:44, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please move the article by WP:Requested moves for a controversial move. It is clear the most common name is "Senkaku Islands". The following are the result of Google search:

―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 00:57, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Phoenix7777, your move from Pinnacle islands to Senkaku islands seems to be based on a careful choice of search queries. Google results could often be misleading in many ways and hardly provides a way to drive "definitive conclusions".

By searching the most recent news:

  • "senkaku islands": 21 results [8]
  • "Diaoyu islands": 194 results [9]

Similar results can be found in German Google news:

Also on book', which yields different results by using another keywords, compared to your finely-polished keyword "diaoyutai islands":

  • "diaoyu islands": 3440 results
  • "diaoyutai" : 4,700 results.

WP:Name states clearly that the encyclopedic article titles are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality and the Japanese title has been disputed before the move.

Phoenix7777, your revert seems to be based on a misinterpretation of google results. Correct me if i'm wrong. Anyway, Wikipedia is not a place for nationalists to claim sovereignty and it's hardly productive to stir up a great debate between the use of "senkaku" or "diaoyu" as we can see in Liancourt Rocks and Sea of Japan. It's especially true in an article which is poorly and patchily edited, lack of citations. More efforts are needed for the article itself, rather than the title. --Winstonlighter (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:27, 9 September 2010 (UTC).[reply]

I've reverted the edit from 203.218.190.89 which seems to spark an unnecessary warring on name ordering. In the article, Japanese name sometimes goes first, some of the goes second and I'm inclined to keep it as a de facto status. Those nationalistic-driven warring won't end up in a dead loop. --Winstonlighter (talk) 04:37, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

Senkaku Islands → Pinnacle Islands — A recent discussion about the controversial use of Japanese name over a disputed land seems to suggest that neither Senkaku and Diaoyu is predominate common name. Search results show that both names are common, in which the Japanese one yields more results in Google Book search, while the Chinese name yields more in Google News and General Google search. The title was hence moved to Pinnacle Islands following the example of Liancourt Rocks and Sea of Japan, which neglects who administrates and controls the place, but pick up a neutral generally known name. In this case, although the name Pinnacle Islands does not seem to be overwhelmingly popular than the rest of two, it achieves the highest degree of neutrality required by wp:name. An admin (nihonjoe) and I have moved the page to Pinnacle Islands for neutrality, but the move is disputed by a user. --Winstonlighter (talk) 04:50, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Before posting the formal move request, Please review the following points.
    • Please review the past discussion regarding the article name and discuss how the situation has changed or what evidence newly found since the last discussion. We are not persons of leisure to waste a time every time a new comer came to request a move.
    • Please review "Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)" first. Its " Widely accepted name" describes how to resolve the disputed name. It states the use of "Google Scholar" and "Google Books" hits not "Google news" hits. Also " Use English" describes the use of "a widely accepted English name" not a German language.
    • Please indicate the Policy or Guideline that states the title of the disputed place should not be either of the name called by the disputed countries but the least common English name found elsewhere.

―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 09:41, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi phoenix, this is the first time to start a formal move request for this article. In fact, Nihonjoe and I has moved the article to Pinnacle Islands but you reverted it and insisted to use a Japanese name based on an obviously flawed google result with a carefully polished keyword ("Diaoyutai islands"). As per your previous request, we started the formal move procedure, in which you now described as a process for "persons of leisure to waste a time every time a new comer came to request a move." I lean towards keeping good faiths on you but please spend your time (and our time) more efficiently. --Winstonlighter (talk) 15:48, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

--Winstonlighter (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 10:00, 9 September 2010 (UTC).[reply]

(edit conflict)Actually, I only fixed an incorrectly titled move. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 16:10, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is not the place to mediate an actual naming dispute by changing the title from the most common name to the least common name. It's like to change "Persian Gulf" to "Arabo-Persian Gulf" by compromising the naming dispute between "Persian Gulf" and "Arabian Gulf". ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 04:04, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Questions about the choice of keywords Diaoyutai Islands.
  • Scholar Search on "Diaoyu Islands":709 results[12]
or try without a bracket:
  • Scholar Search on Diaoyu Islands: 1,340.[13]
If you just want a more favorable result, try "Tiao-yu-tai islands". Anyway, the result doesn't seem to suggest a decisive conclusion about which one is more common and that's why there's a proposal for using Pinnacle Islands as a neutral term. --Winstonlighter (talk) 11:47, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I used the name User:OhanaUnited used to move this article in #Page move. I will add "Diaoyu Islands" to my list if you want. 'Diaoyu Islands' without bracket is apparently inappropriate. Anyway your preference is "Pinnacle Islands" which is still the least common name. ――　Phoenix7777 (talk) 12:05, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  1. "Senkaku": 372 000
  2. "Diaoyutai": 252 000
  3. "Senkaku Islands": 47 400
  4. "Diaoyu Islands": 26 500
  5. "Diaoyutai Islands": 6 630
  6. "Tiaoyutai Islands": 2 200
Support: While I'm confused as to how the nominator concluded that the "Chinese name yields more" results, I do concede that there is a substantial divide in usage, and the ratio is not nearly great enough to warrant the selection of the "most common" name. Pinnacle Islands appears common enough, and should prove neutral and effective. Nightw 04:38, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for participating this discussion. However as you may know that Google web search is quite unreliable. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Widely accepted name recommends the use of "Google Scholar" and "Google Books" hits as I posted above. Please explain why you are determined to support the least common English name as the most preferable article title. ――　Phoenix7777 (talk) 11:16, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: following the link above, here shows the contrast results:
  • [17]"Diaoyu islands": 325 results
  • [18]"Senkaku islands": 24 results.
Or try without a bracket:
  • [19] Diaoyu islands: 561 results
  • [20] Senkaku islands: 387 results.
Enough is said. --Winstonlighter (talk) 11:22, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Anyway, I don't think the Google news hits is relevant to the most common English name. ――　Phoenix7777 (talk) 11:36, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Phoenix, it seems to me that you're trying to be a troll with endless tricks. You asked for this formal WP:MOVE, in which you later described as a process for "persons of leisure to waste a time". Once it's started, you asked to postpone. The latest trick is WP:CANVAS policy? I've informed users who recently edited this article, including you and Kusunose who seemed to be in favour of a Japanese name rather than a neutral one. In this contentious topic, I actually expect an endless WP:MOVE would happen if the active users who are involved in this article haven't been informed about this WP:Move. While you're toying with the debate notification and stalking my contributions, you possibly miss two more notifications:
User:Tenmei brought Talk:Eulsa Treaty to my attention yesterday and surprisingly, you're highly active in those naming issues. Frankly, nationalistic driven debate is often exhausting but brings nothing to the community. --Winstonlighter (talk) 12:15, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Winstonlighter, please refrain from WP:Personal attack. Or you will be blocked from editing. Please "Comment on content, not on the contributor".―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 12:43, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
........Speechless. Anyway, adopt WP:IAR if you see anyone is obviously toying with police but don't forget to apply WP:AGF. Let me know when you come up with a new argument or trick. Cheers. --Winstonlighter (talk) 14:00, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Neutrality in disputes is a value (not the only value); for example, WP:NCGN says In some cases, a compromise is reached between editors to avoid giving the impression of support for a particular national point of view. For example, the name Liancourt Rocks has been adopted rather than select either the Korean or Japanese name for the feature. Similarly, Wikipedia's version of the Derry/Londonderry name dispute has been resolved by naming the city page Derry and the county page County Londonderry. I am commenting rather than !voting because one question involved is whether Senkaku is so predominant in the sources as to make the efforts at neutrality pointless. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:34, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The description you cited is in "Multiple local names" section where the use of Google Scholar/Book hits is hard to determine which is widely used in English. Actually, in the case of Liancourt Rocks, the Google Book hits are below a hundred at that time (May 2007). See Talk:Liancourt Rocks/Archive 10#Google Book search. Over 10,000 hits are quite reliable to judge which is predominant, so the description is not applicable here. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 22:12, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Google Book/Scholar hits

There are many unreliable search results (Google web, Google news) including inappropriate results (without "quote", too many spurious hits like "Diaoyutai" which include Diaoyutai State Guesthouse) are provided above. So I list the Google Book/Scholar hits as described in "WP:NCGN#Widely accepted name".

According to the "WP:NCGN#Widely accepted name", "If the name is used at least three times as often as any other, in referring to the period, it is widely accepted." So "Senkaku Islands" is clearly a "Widely accepted name". ――　Phoenix7777 (talk) 00:15, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What WP:NCGN says

  1. General guidelines says "The title: When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it."
  2. Widely accepted name says one of the methods is to "Consult Google Scholar and Google Books hits."
  3. Multiple local names says if "English discussion of the place is so limited that none of the above tests indicate which of them is widely used in English; so there is no single local name, and English usage is hard to determine.", then "In some cases, a compromise is reached between editors to avoid giving the impression of support for a particular national point of view." like Liancourt Rocks.

So, "Senkaku Islands" is a "Widely accepted name" by the method described above 2, no compromise to use the least common name is necessary. To sum up, the votes casted with a reason "neutrality" or "NPOV" are all void. ――　 Phoenix7777 (talk) 08:36, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is no such thing as having something "null and void" base on WP:NCGN; policy is flexible. If all else fails, WP:IAR. If a policy prevents the optimum functionality of Wikipedia (for example, neutrality), then we also have the option of ignoring it (even though it is discouraged, it is possible). You could similarly consider the fifth WP:PILLAR as well, perhaps even WP:BURO and WP:CCC. Also, I'm not going to bother to !vote in this discussion, because I frankly could care little on the title of this article, as long as the content isn't compromised by any major decision made by users. I'd prefer that this article doesn't become an expansion of the circlejerk that we see at Liancourt Rocks, because it's just silly, and nationalism doesn't add any inches to you. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 09:48, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Benlisquare, thank you for commenting my post above. My word "void" may have been too provocative to you. I apologize if the word offended you. However I still believe the votes with a reason simply indicating the neutrality or NPOV are not productive to this discussion. ――　Phoenix7777 (talk) 10:08, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just wanted to note that unlike the Liancourt Rocks, nobody uses the term Pinnacle Island. No, I don't say that in absolute terms, but the numbers show that the name's use is extremely rare... so rare that few people will even recognize it. From what I recall, there's already been a vote on the nomenclature before; I'm sure if we look in the archives, we can fish it out. Are we going to have cyclical debates on the dispute every time the passions of fellow netizens are inflamed about the islands? Feel free to apply Wikipedia rules all you want, but let's not construe it to further individual bias.--ScorchingPheonix (talk) 05:42, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

IPs edit warring

As there were a couple IPs edit warring over content in the article, I've protected the article so only established editors can edit it (semiprotection). I also undid all the edits made by the IPs. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 17:33, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

agreed. the edits from the anonymous IP user stir up a meaningless competition for name ordering in the article, but it doesn't help improve the article. I would rather to keep the current status as a de facto stable version in which Japanese names go first in some places, and go after in other places. --Winstonlighter (talk) 05:41, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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