Talk:Senkaku Islands

Suggestion: Follow Liancourt Rocks precedent

Same exact situation; Koreans dispute an islet with Japan, despite different naming conventions, the article title reflects a neutral mutually agreed upon alternative, Liancourt Rocks for the Dokdo (Korean) or Takeshima (Japanese) islands, which each re-direct towards the Liancourt Rocks page. If a person types in Dokdo, he is probably Korean, and it's redirected to Liancourts Rocks/Takeshima. If a person types in Takeshima, he is probably Japanese, and it's redirected to Liancourt Rocks/Dokdo. Even if Liancourt Rocks isn't as popularly known as Dokdo, the Dokdo search will re-direct automatically to Liancourt Rocks, which preserves NPOV for the Japanese who would use Takeshima, and vice versa. The title is very POV, and needs to be changed to Pinnacle Islands to preserve NPOV. Of course, following the Liancourt Rocks example, Diaoyutai and Senkaku would auto redirect to Pinnacle Islands

The title/name of this article sounds quite POV

As mentioned in the subject above, the title of this article "Senkaku Islands" sounds obviously POV. The Islands are disputed ones as clearly labeled in one of the categories of this article, as the ref sources the content of this article has been used. I would suggest the title be changed into "Diaoyu / Senkaku Islands", which reflects in NPOV way the names used by the two disputing parties (China including both sides across the Taiwan Strait, and Japan), which has also been used in many English medias. I am going to move the whole part of this article under this new and NPOV title.--Lvhis (talk) 04:28, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Previous attempts were made to change the name to "Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands" and they've basically gone nowhere. I'd advise you to read all previous discussion on naming dispute to get a feel of what's going on. If you want to help, you are welcomed to post your input and research. Bobthefish2 (talk) 04:51, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I just realized the long discussion history on this and reviewed some of those roughly. The disputes on this sounded focusing on "number" results from Google. As my thought, the bottom line here is: the islands are disputed ones, no matter from the viewpoint of history and realistic facts, or from the viewpoint of wp:source. Therefore, the current title or name "Senkaku Islands" is a POV one, and the dual one "Diaoyu / Senkaku Islands" or vice versa is NPOV one. Wikipedia is welcomed worldwide by its NPOV, the one of its five "pillars". Actually, outcomes (numbers) of Google search results on different disputed names of the Islands are all big enough already. If one only plays search numbers of Google search while ignores the huge facts of the dispute on the Islands name, it would make Wikipedia at least somewhat lose its reputation on this article and its related articles.--Lvhis (talk) 05:43, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I think your suggestion could set a dangerous precedent. Take the example of the Spratley Islands - should that be moved to "Xinsha/Spratley Islands" plus whatever they are called by the Thais and other claimants? I think that the title should be based not on Google hits but rather on what the majority of maps say, which I believe is "Senkaku Islands". ► Philg88 ◄ ^talk 02:00, Wednesday February 23, 2011 (UTC)

I don't see any dangerous precedent associated. It's a pretty unique case of diplomatic nightmare (and in my opinion, a set-up by the U.S. to inflame Sino-Japanese long-term relationships). Since most countries gave a wide berth to taking an official position in such a dispute, it's obvious that this is not at all similar to Falkland Islands. But anyhow, sovereignty discussions is a whole different matter, so I will stop at this.

As for your other point, there's little reason to give maps more importance over say... articles from major news media. For the more scientifically-inclined among us, it is well-known that it's not hard at all difficult to manipulate presentation/sampling of data to argue in any direction possible. Bobthefish2 (talk) 02:13, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

---

You are most certainly not going to move the title.Sorry, that was unnecessarily harsh. This was discussed at very great length before. There is a lot of information in the archives, but the quick and dirty summary is this:

• Policy and guidelines say we need to choose one name, not a joint name. Exceptions are extremely limited, generally fail, and would need a very wide consensus (including at the naming conventions pages).
• In news searches, the two terms are used approximately equally, although its hard to tell because news searches produce both Japanese and Chinese POV links. In scholarly searches, Senkaku had an edge, although not a very significant one. These searches all get very complicated, though, when you look at them, because, for example, it's not enough to say, "Article X uses both Senkaku and Diaoyu" if the whole article uses Senkaku throughout and just mentions Diaoyu paranthetically. I tried to do some more complex hand counts of news articles, and again found Senkaku with an edge, but not a huge one.
• In other encyclopedias we could check, one had none of the three terms, and one had Senkaku as the entry. I wish other people would check their local library, as I don't have access to one.
• I did, though, have time to look at the almanac section of a university library while in the US one day. Every single almanac that listed these islands either listed Senkaku first, or listed Senkaku only. This, for me, was the key tipping factor.
• Since we have to choose one and only one name, the only alternatives are take the Senkaku edge and leave it as is (which is what an RfC found by a large margin), or choose "Pinnacle Islands", an alternative US name that is almost never used (like, by a factor of 10 to 1 or more, especially in recent publications).

As such, you are going to need to present a lot of convincing evidence to show that the article needs to change name, especially since the name you recommended is explicitly listed as a bad idea in policy. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:10, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

• I am not going to re-elaborate my disagreements with User:Qwyrxian's methods (i.e. statistical significance of results, sampling, etc). But if someone's going to attack the problem again, then it'd be a good idea to do it at a linguistic stand point. It's too bad we don't have any linguists among us. I've only taken two grad courses in computational linguistics, so I only have a very basic idea of what kind of sampling methods are reasonable. Bobthefish2 (talk) 06:08, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

• I have gave my two pennies in the reply to user:Bobthefish2 as above. Because POV in the title/name of this article is so obvious, and violates one of the five pillars of Wikipedia, I believe this is a case of so called "extremely limited exceptions" to use dual name. Some search results you (User:Qwyrxian) mentioned above supported my point. Thanks. --Lvhis (talk) 06:02, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

• This makes sense realistically, but if you've read the previous discussions, you'd notice others like myself have tried this and more. If you are in fact very interested in helping us out with this matter, you should read through this and this thread carefully.

Lvhis, if you look at the policy, it actually says that we have to balance out NPOV with other issues, specifically the need for all articles to have one and only one name. Furthermore, past disputes have shown that all changing to a dual name does doesn't actually solve the NPOV issue, because people just end up arguing that the ordering of the names is NPOV. And finally, the name isn't really NPOV if that is the name used most often in reliable sources, especially those of encyclopedic level. For example, consider, Florence; by looking just at POV, isn't it a violation of NPOV to call it Florence when everyone who lives there call it Firenze? Or, if you want to look at disputed places, isn't it POV to call them the Kuril Islands, when Japan disputes ownership of them and calls them the Chishima Islands? And this doesn't even get into places that are disputed where every town in the area also has a disputed name. This is why WP:PLACE exists, because we have to choose what to call things; otherwise, every single disputed place would have to have a dual title. What about all of the cities in Tibet, or Ireland? Our goal is to choose the most common English name; right now, that looks like Senkaku Islands. If there is ever a time in the future where the actual, commonly used name is "Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands" (which I actually think there may be, if the trend among some newspapers carries over into the academic fields), then that would be the correct name for this article. At the moment, though, it dos not appear to be. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:15, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

(ecx2)As to whether or not this qualifies for an exception, note that neither Kuril Islands nor Sea of Japan qualify for such an exception, and those are nearly as equally disputed. In fact, as far as I know, the only ones that do are a small set of cities, somewhere in Europe (it's in the WT:PLACE archives), where the government itself actually recognizes the dual names. The only other alternative, as I say, is to choose "Pinnacle Islands", which I was considering until I found unanimous support for Senkaku Islands among almanacs.

If you do want to pursue a name change, my feeling is that you'll have to try another RfC, and present new arguments and/or data that haven't been presented before. The last RfC was pretty recent though, so it may not be looked upon too favorably. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:15, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

User:Qwyrxian, wall of text doesn't help. If he's interested in helping, he will read up the threads I listed. Within, it contains everything you just said above. Bobthefish2 (talk) 06:24, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Also, the last RfC lacked a lot of depth. If you looked at the paragraphs pro and anti, they were ~ 2 sentences each. If my memory serves, our actual discussions on various aspects of the matter spanned many pages. Bobthefish2 (talk) 06:35, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Sorry...you're right. Perhaps the thing I agree with more than anything else that you said about me in that discussion on that noticeboard is that this naming issue is a hot button issue with me, and I definitely got carried away. Lhvis' initial comment to me sounded like xe was minutes away from moving the article, so I freaked out. I really need to learn to relax a bit sometimes. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:58, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your input Lvhis. I don't agree that the article title is NPOV. There is no requirement to have an article title use all names of an island group/territory if its ownership is disputed. E.g. Falklands Islands, not Falklands/Malvinas Islands. We have discussed this quite exhaustively. John Smith's (talk) 07:46, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for the confusion! I sometimes confuse myself. I meant to say that I didn't think the article title was POV. John Smith's (talk) 09:00, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

• I reviewed more of the history of the naming discussion or dispute on this article, and the wp:NPOV, wp:PLACE, and wp:TITLE, and the messages above from all you three users. My feeling is as follows:

1. Clearly the current name/title of this article is POV one. Bobthefish2 and John Smith's said this frankly already. Or at least, it is a hot disputed one, as Qwyrxian expressed. The extent how hot this dispute can be told by the mountain like discussion history record.
2. No consensus on this has been reached yet. That the current title can stay here is due to no consensus as said by user Winstonlighter on 20:05, 15 October 2010 (UTC) "It's obvious that either Japanese or Chinese names for the disputed islands aren't overwhelmingly more common than their counterparts, according to the previous search research on google scholars and google books. However, Wikipedia also states that when there is no consensus reached, it will hardly change anything." But hardly change anything does not mean the POV problem has been solved.
3. The case of naming this title is not a clear-cut one as mentioned in wp:PLACE, and wp:TITLE, if one insists on using single name. I strongly feel this is the case of "extremely limited exceptions" to use dual name.
4. Some examples or precedents above: Florence/Firenze - does not work because the margin between using Florence and using Firenze is larger than the one between using Diaoyu/Senkaku, and Florence is more English one; Falklands/Malvinas, similar to the case of Florence/Firenze and Falkland is even more English one, that happen to be generated and used by UK. Kuril/Chishima is a bit comparable, but I think we still need deal with these case by case.
5. To reflect NPOV of wiki's important policy, I believe for the time being we can put the template {{POV-title}} on the top. It serves two functions here: a) warn readers and editors this title is not a consensus NPOV one, and tell them the wiki does not take side on the naming dispute; b) encourage them to participate in the discussion. This template should stay there till a consensus can be reached including the article can be peacefully moved or peacefully stayed.

Thank all of you. --Lvhis (talk) 01:38, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

done with adding the template {{POV-title}}.--Lvhis (talk) 01:43, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

I highly doubt consensus will be reached given my experience with this page. If you want to score a breakthrough, you'd need to provide some pretty convincing analysis and evidence that makes logical and statistical sense. For reference, you can also read some of my old arguments in that RfC I gave you (which were mostly being ignored). Bobthefish2 (talk) 02:13, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Question for Lvhis: Can you please explain where you don't see consensus for the current name? I just looked back at the most recent RfC, and I do see consensus for the current name. The only objections I see are 1) Bobthefish2, 2) San9663, who was objecting only at the beginning, and more to the process of data gathering, as I saw, and 3) Jiang, who wasn't objecting to the name but instead claiming that the search results were wrong (which we determined were because he used Google searches incorrectly). Several previously uninvolved editors commented that the name as it stands is the correct English name (note, that is what we are looking for--not the "neutral" name, but the name that is most commonly used in English). Note that consensus does not mean a majority, but it also doesn't mean 100% agreement. Maybe I, because of my strong opinion on this subject, am seeing consensus where it did not actually exist, so that's why I'd like to hear why you think there wasn't consensus. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:19, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

I remember writing a section about how that RfC was set up in a way to favour a certain outcome. If my memory serves, the RfC was submitted before I had a chance to summarize the term frequency data we found. The introductory text was very short given the high dimensionality of our problem. It also omitted much of the issues we were discussing. If we look past my additions (which occurred after much of the voting took place), your part of the introduction had almost nothing useful. It is as if you summarized the 1000-page American Health Care Bill in 1 paragraph and asked people to vote on it.

Looking back into our old discussions, it does appear to me that this "naming-issue" evokes some very strong emotions from you. For example, phrases like "compromise is considered a failure" seem to suggest you've already made up your mind about the issue regardless of evidence (something you angrily accused me of committing multiple times). Since you tend to be a responsible editor, it's important for you to know whether or not your objectivity is compromised. Bobthefish2 (talk) 03:46, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

I vaguely recall that "compromise is considered a failure" comment, but I don't remember the exact context. Thus, I'm not sure what I meant at that moment, but I think I can clarify what I think that phrase means now. Wikipedia does not strive for compromise, it strives for consensus. So, for example, we should never have a case where 2 editors say "Since we can't agree, let's just put in both (POV/quotations/sentences/whatever)." Regarding this specific issue, we can't "compromise" on the name; instead, we must, if we can, pick the name that is most commonly used in English. If we were to choose Senkaku/Diaoyu, it should only be because that is the actual name used in English sources, not because one side thinks it should Senkaku and the other side thinks it should be Diaoyu and thus we compromise on a mixed name. In other words, consider the mixed name not as a POV compromise, but as one of 5 possible names for the article: Senkaku, Diaoyu, Diaoyutai, Senkaku/Diaoyu, or Pinncale. Now, if sources did show that the mixed name was the most common, I would accept that, and move on. But that's not what the sources show. At best, they show an uneasy mix between S alone, Diaoyu alone, and S/D together. Unfortunately, accurately measuring that mix is nearly impossible given that it would require a hand count, which I tried to do but even found that to be giving me wacky results. To me, the almanac and (minimal) encyclopedia evidence completely sealed the deal, but, of course, if presented with other evidence, I would change my opinion.

Part of what concerns me is that I just don't understand what we need to do to put this issue behind us (at least for a few years, until sources change). Re-raising this issue every few months takes a lot of effort and pain, and never gets us anywhere other than where we are right now (a majority, but not totality, of editors support the current name). What do we need to do to end this discussion and say, "Not everyone agrees, but this is the best we have for right now"? Note that I'm not trying to shut this discussion down, but to figure out what steps you (Bobthefish2, Lhvis, etc.) think we need to take that ensure we are moving forward and not just spinning around in circles, repeating the same discussions over and over again. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:29, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

It may help if you and User:Lhvis have a private initial discussion on the relevant angles of the problem first. This will give a general scope of the problem (which we did not adequately provide). It may also be convenient to leave the word usage matters to a bit later since it is rather complicated to resolve. Bobthefish2 (talk) 06:57, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Per Bobthefish2's doubt and question, I strikethroughed "consensus" somewhere in my note above.--Lvhis (talk) 05:09, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Answer to Qwyrxian's question regarding last RfC: the last RfC is just a part of long record of this naming dispute. Neither can it be taken as a final conclusion on this dispute nor can it solve the POV problem for the current title. The only consensus, if we can call it consensus, is that there has exited drastic dispute on this article's naming. So putting that template on the top may be a relative realistic way we can do for now, and also a compromising way from me. I personally believe the dual name D/S or S/D would be the best in terms of NPOV. A lot of evidence listed by editors/users involved in this dispute has been there already, and the key problem is how to interpret them. --Lvhis (talk) 05:09, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Isn't this handled with English version redirects so that people looking for the erroneous term will still find the correct article while foreign language wikis can use whichever term is the most popular in that language? Hcobb (talk) 05:34, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes. The problem is that we can't agree what the English version of the name is.

Also, as far as the tag...well, I don't really mind it being there, as I can see the justification for it (even though NPOV isn't the only policy we have to follow with regards to article naming). It is a little sad to think of it staying up indefinitely, but at least I understand the complaint. I wish I could figure out how we could get a firm, strong consensus like Sea of Japan or Spratly Islands (that is, one written directly into the guidelines). Qwyrxian (talk) 05:55, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

P.S.: I was just re-reading WP:PLACE, and found a relevant point regarding dual names. It explicitly says "There are occasional exceptions, such as Biel/Bienne, when the double name is the overwhelmingly most common name in English (in this case, it has become most common because it is official and customary in Switzerland; the usage does not appear to be controversial). This should not be done to settle a dispute between national or linguistic points of view; it should only be done when the double name is actually what English-speakers call the place." That means, as I've said before, that this article doesn't meet the exemption, because even though many news articles do use both names, they do so by listing them separately, not by actually writing them as Senkaku/Diaoyu or Diaoyu/Senkaku. Since English-speakers don't "call the place" the dual name, it's not an acceptable name for this article. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:03, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

On the other hand, WP doesn't have a standard for dual name usage. Biel/Bienne's case is certainly convenient, but I've not seen anything about them being the limiting conditions. In the end, it's just a matter of WP:COMMONSENSE. But again, we've been through this before. Bobthefish2 (talk) 06:56, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, what? The quote that you're responding to right here is about dual names, taken from the guideline (i.e., standard) on naming articles about geographic places. It explicitly says not to use dual names except in cases where "the double name is actually what English-speakers call the place." I don't understand how you can say that there is no standard. I hate to sound like the wikilawyer you think of me as, but the guideline is very clear here: unless we can establish that the dual name is the commonly used English name, it cannot be the title of this page. I know, I know, you may be thinking of WP:IAR, WP:COMMONSENSE, WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY. However, my stance, not just here but everywhere on WP (after my first few months editing) is that local groups (our group of editors here) should not override site-wide guidelines and policies (which is written right into WP:Consensus). Oda Mari, I'm pretty sure that Bob is right that inserting new comments in the middle is acceptable so long as it's done to show the thread of an argument. Qwyrxian (talk) 08:52, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Philg88. As far as I know, Nautical charts published in en speaking countries, namely Australia, UK, and USA, use "Senkaku Shoto" and this is en WP. I don't think the article title is POV. I'll remove the template. If you disagree with me, please provide RS that the en charts use a different name or the article title is not NPOV. Oda Mari (talk)

Hi please face the fact here: within around 26 hous the discussion here has pile up such long in size. Please see here and here. Please do not remove that template, thanks.--Lvhis (talk) 06:28, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

The linked pages are not RS. The first one is a blog. Kristof's wife is a Chinese American. He said "So which country has a better claim to the islands? My feeling is that it’s China, although the answer isn’t clearcut." in September. Looking at the map, not a naurtical chart, on the second link, it says "Senkaku Shoto". Furthermore, both links treat the dispute. It is natural they mention the both names. Oda Mari (talk) 07:01, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

@Bobthefish2, when you post your new comment, please do not insert it between past comments. Instead post it on the bottom of the thread. Thank you. Oda Mari (talk) 07:11, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Negative. There is little reason to post it at the bottom of the thread when I was addressing a specific post. It is also common practice. Bobthefish2 (talk) 07:46, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

By the way, User:Lvhis, don't let this revert discourage you. You have no doubt just experienced your rite of passage in this page. For your benefit, you should read up on WP:RS to get an idea on what's a reliable source. Since User:Oda Mari asked for an WP:RS, you can simply search for something from CNN, CBC, BBC, scholarly journal, etc, that supports your position (if any exist). Enjoy. Bobthefish2 (talk) 07:55, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm a little uncomfortable with Oda Mari's revert of the tag. I was figuring that the tag could stay for a while, while we tried, once again, to hash out the name. I'm loathe to revert Oda Mari to re-add the tag, though, because I'm afraid that that will practically guarantee full protection of the article. Ugh... Qwyrxian (talk) 08:52, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Qwyrxian, I don't want to have to debate the name every time a new editor makes a complaint. The discussion is, for now, closed. We should focus on other things. John Smith's (talk) 09:56, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

This is a wise choice. If the page is locked, then we might have to waste some time dealing with an ANI about User:Bobthefish2 baiting hapless editors into edit-wars to get pages protected.

Jokes aside, we might not necessarily have an immediate need of bringing out the issue again. If User:Lvhis turns out to be not that interested in going through with this in the end, then maybe we can simply devote our energy on other more immediate matters. Given the amount of work involved, I am probably not going to do this unless I know there are others who are interested in helping. On the other hand, if he is actually quite serious and devoted into dealing with this matter, then that's a different story. Bobthefish2 (talk) 09:34, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

I fully support Lvhis' solution to preserve Wikipedia's neutrality while there's ongoing disagreement on the current title.STSC (talk) 10:21, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

STSC, please do not reinsert the tag. All editors are alerted to the objection, and there has been detailed, recent discussion about what title the article should have. The tag should not be used simply because some people are still not satisfied with the article title. Someone will always be unhappy, so should the tag always be there? Clearly not. John Smith's (talk) 10:45, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, I assume the article will be fully protected by the time I wake up tomorrow morning. Unless, maybe, both sides stop. It doesn't even really matter which version the article stays in as long as we are talking and not reverting... Qwyrxian (talk) 14:27, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Whatever, John Smith's, you and your gang just cannot provide any valid reason to remove the tag, can you? STSC (talk) 16:12, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

STSC, that is not a helpful comment. Tagging articles are designed to raise awareness for discussions, not lodge an official protest. If you look at the NPOV page you will see that it states that articles should be tagged only as a last resort. We can't be at the "last resort" stage if we're aware of the situation and discussing it. John Smith's (talk) 16:50, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

You should be careful about what you say, User:STSC. Assuming bad faith is a very bad thing in WP and can give people an excuse to report you for being unWP:CIVIL or having WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality. Bobthefish2 (talk) 18:35, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Bob, your sarcasm really does you no favours. You didn't learn anything from the discussion on Wikiquette alerts, did you? John Smith's (talk) 18:46, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Not much. But let's see... I did learn that you are a person who finds fault in a lot of things. I also learned that a combination of diff's and wiki-lawyering can be quite useful for smearing or character assassination. Then additionally, I was made aware of a few things about User:Qwyrxian.

Anyhow, the Wikiquette did open up some nice opportunities that were previously unavailable. Bobthefish2 (talk) 19:08, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Reply to those who like to remove the tag {{POV-title}}: The dispute here and its long history have enough reason to have this tag put on. If you ask RS, it is easily found out from the dispute history, as I said all of evidence has been listed out but the problem is how to interpret them. The POV tag is not only for editors, it is for wiki and its READERS too. Go back my starting point: please respect wikipedia's reputation. If you leave such obvious POV title/name without this POV tag, it will make a lot of readers distrust this article at their first glance at the title. I prefer moving this article under a dual name and believe I can find automatically get supporters, but I respect those editors holding opposing opinion. So keep that tag on is the best way we can do for now.--Lvhis (talk) 19:11, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Lvhis, as I pointed out on your talk page, you haven't said why you want the tag on the article. It isn't a means of registering a protest, it is to seek attention to a problem. The NPOV dispute page makes it clear that you should use a tag as a last resort, i.e. if you can't get attention without it.

You should not look for supporters, that would be canvassing. You have to raise the issue in an impartial way. It's clear that you're not getting traction here. You might want to try putting arguments forward here for a bit longer, but if not I suggest you try other venues. The first one would be Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard, as then you will get specific feedback on whether it is POV/NPOV to have a title like this if ownership of the islands is disputed. You could subsequently try raising a proposal on Wikipedia:Requested moves to try to formally move the page. Separately you can leave a message on Wikipedia talk:Article titles to ask if there are any other good venues for discussion.

I wouldn't mind you putting the tag on so much if I thought this would settle the matter once and for all. But it won't. You're not the first editor to want the article's name changed and you won't be the last. But the simple fact of the matter is that when a subject is heavily disputed some people will always be unhappy. So if we followed the logic that whilst there is a dispute over something the article must always be tagged, every article like this would forever have an NPOV tag on it. That's not what the tags are for. John Smith's (talk) 19:50, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

John Smith's， the tag is not for "protest" at all. Please do not misunderstand or misinterpret this. Please review what I have said in itme 1 through 5 of my note on 01:38, 23 February 2011 (UTC) above and the one just beyond yours above. This does be an almost last resort, at least for now. When I said "I can find supporters" I mean I can get supporters automatically. Anyway, instead of moving the page under a dual title, no matter through me or through requesting Wikipedia:Requested moves, I, maybe plus others shown by recent edit history, believe the realistic way or last resort is keeping that tag on.--Lvhis (talk) 20:35, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, Lvhis, I'm not following you. What is having the tag on the article going to achieve? John Smith's (talk) 20:51, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

There was a {{POV}} tag (albeit a slightly different one) before and User:John Smith's the one who removed it. Somehow, I managed to miss it, but then the page was flooded with edits and it's not something I noticed. But to provide a fair argument, the act of moving sovereignty dispute materials to a sub-page does not necessarily remove POV content. Anyhow, there are 4 editors who thought the tag should stay. Bobthefish2 (talk) 20:40, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

For John Smith's again, please review the point 5 of my note on 01:38, 23 February 2011 (UTC) and my note on 19:11, 23 February 2011 (UTC) again. Wikipedia is a free Encyclopedia, and it is not only for registered editors/users. It is also for readers. Keeping that POV-Title tag on this article will achieve a point keeping Wikipedia standing for its NPOV as far as it can under current difficult situation over the hot dispute on the title/name. Otherwise, I can just simply move the whole pages of this article as I said at my very beginning.--Lvhis (talk) 22:15, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

I just want to say that I think that John Smith and Lvhis are each only half right about the purpose of tags of this type. I do believe that it's not about just notifying people, and we can't remove it just because some editors are now aware of the concern. However, I think Lvhis is also wrong in that the tag can't just stay up because the article isn't being moved. In other words, the tag can stay on if an only if we are going to engage, now, in a protracted discussion of the potential POV of the article title. That is, the tag is supposed to start discussion on the title. It can't exist in lieu of discussion on the title. So, Lvhis and STSC, you can't say "We don't like the decision that was come to earlier, so we're going to put up a tag to say the decision is wrong." However, you can put up the tag to say "We think that the decision that was made earlier was wrong, and we need to keep discussion it more," and then begin such a discussion here (with, as always, both sides presenting evidence, policy arguments, etc.). I guess we would need another RfC (this time, not drafted by me, since one of the complaints is that I drafted it unfairly last time). If that fails, we'd have to try mediation, which would fail, because someone will refuse to enter mediation. Eventually, if one side can show consensus, then the issue has to go away, with either the article being moved or the tag being removed. But you can't just go to an article, say "I see a history of dispute here, I'm going to add a tag, but I'm not going to actually discuss how to remove the tag." Furthermore, the stance cannot be "The tag stays up until the article changes names." It needs to be "The tag stays up until we come to a consensus about whether or not the title meets our title guidelines (including NPOV)." So, for those that want the tag, are you prepared to start this discussion again in full? Qwyrxian (talk) 22:28, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

I think more accurately, User:Lvhis is saying there is an unresolved POV-issue.Bobthefish2 (talk) 22:34, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

That's fine; then we need to start discussing again (as much as I don't see the point). Also, there needs to be a point at which we move on. In other words, if we're going to have this discussion again, we need new information, new evidence, new arguments. I can accept that there are still things to say on this topic; for instance, we still haven't identified what term is used in regular, recent, paper encyclopedias (one of the tests recommended in the guidelines). But simply saying "this isn't over yet", at some point, becomes WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT or WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT. Maybe we're not there yet, but we're pretty darn close. So; I believe the tag can stay if and only if we are going to discuss the issue further. Do an RfC, a RM, make a mediation request, even just start a regular discussion in a new section with new points. But the choice is not "move the article or accept the tag." It's "work towards consensus on whether or not this article title is POV and/or should be changed." Qwyrxian (talk) 23:38, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

It's not very nice to assume WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT when a number of us have provided good reasons on why the previous RfC's (including the one you put up) had major issues. Anyway, I will let you guys take the lead if this matter is to be brought up again. Bobthefish2 (talk) 23:49, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Re Qwyrxian: I am afraid it is not proper for you to cite WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT for here the current situation. The very appropriate or fit wp policy for this case is here Wikipedia:POV Cleanup. The current single title is a POV one, or alternatively, if the title is "Diaoyu Islands" it is also a POV one. No consensus has been reached now, and the dispute has not been solved. Therefore, the tag POV-Title should be there. Those users removing the tag have violated this POV Cleanup policy. Another option is: move the pages under "Diaoyu Islands" and keep the POV-Title tag on the top. Let me finish here with the content of the tag: "The neutrality of this article's title, subject matter, and/or the title's implications, is disputed. This is a dispute over the neutrality of viewpoints or other implications of the title, or the subject matter within its scope, rather than the actual facts stated. Please see the relevant discussion on the talk page." Someones interpret this tag in an ORG way. That is wrong. Whether a new RfC and so on is needed immediately or soon after the tag on is not a determinant for whether this tag should be there.--Lvhis (talk) 00:54, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Except for the fact that maintenance tags may be removed if there is no discussion on the talk page to support their continued place on the article. You cannot just leave the tag and then walk away from the article. We are challenging your addition of the tag. We say that there is no POV issue here, because the article title accurately reflects the most common name of the islands as used in high quality sources. If the title does that, it's not a POV title. I'm trying to say that if you (or someone else who wants the tag there) is willing to discuss the title, and work to determine whether or not the title is POV, then the tag can be there; I'd even recommend protecting the article to keep the tag in place while we (once again) sort this out. But I would expect a serious discussion, and a discussion that involves something new. I accept Bobthefish2's criticsm that the previous RfC "had major issues". I don't agree, but that's obviously because I wrote it and it got the result that I believe is correct per policy/guidelines. Because I seemingly never tire of this, I can handle going once more around the block on whether or not the title matches our title guidelines. Adding a title and then intentionally refusing to discuss the issue is simply not acceptable. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:24, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to ask a few things: What high quality sources are you referring to? How comprehensive is your analysis? What were the dates of those sources? Unless I somehow have memory issues, I believe ample evidence were provide to you that many high throughout analyses did not support your this clear majority you were talking about.

Also, if you are unable to acknowledge some of the concerns that were brought up regarding the matter, then I believe we might have some problems here. Maybe I should go through exactly why that RfC was bad? Bobthefish2 (talk) 02:38, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Can we break this off in a new section? I just want to separate out the "discussion about what the title should be" from the "discussion about whether the article should have a POV tag." Qwyrxian (talk) 02:46, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Just deal with the POV first. Bobthefish2 (talk) 03:20, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

The edit-dispute on putting POV-Title template was not worsen yet, while suddenly this article has been fully protected. I still want to clarify some points with Qwyrxian.

1. "You cannot just leave the tag and then walk away from the article."--This is an assumption which is against WP:AGF. You should only say this AFTER the POV-Title tag has stayed there for QUITE A WHILE, but neither BEFORE, nor it was JUST added on and astonishingly was removed only within several hours. Also, all users/editors for wiki are volunteers, some of them are quite busy in their real life, some may not be that busy and can put a lot of time devoting here. Please be little bit more patient, and this is also asked by wiki's civil policy.
2. You and someones say "that there is no POV issue here" and use this as a reason to object that POV tag. This is totally wrong. Why? Because in all instances where a POV tag is used, one party there said there is no POV issue in that way and the other party said there IS POV issue in that way, that is the exact circumstance where a POV template shall be applied for. When a part of an article has been exist there, the editors who wrote it and their supporters of course think no POV issue there, while other editors and users with different views of course think there does be POV issue there. If the dispute cannot be solved quickly or very soon, then a POV template can be used. This is a very good point of Wikipedia, a Free Encyclopedia. If your such reason or logic can stand, Wikipedia shall not need any POV templates at all! Please review the Wikipedia:POV Cleanup again.
3. Should "Whether the article should have a POV tag" be a new section? I do not think so. I think my first 2 points above have been quite clear to state why I don't think so. The POV tag ought not to be a problem at beginning. Unfortunately, the article has been locked without that tag reflecting the fact that there is an unsolved dispute on the title. Actually, when I saw Bobthefish2's earliest note after mine before I saw yours on the day 1 of this section, I stopped my initial attempt moving the pages, to learn the dispute history and to start discussing.

--Lvhis (talk) 20:16, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

---

I would like to suggest one minor change, which is to change the initial definition of the Senkaku/Diaoyu/not-getting-involved-in-that-one, from "uninhabited islands" to "uninhabited rocks". The term "island," under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS), is defined as some piece of land that is inhabitABLE--that it, not necessarily inhabited, but capable of supporting human life. See UNCLOS article 121. Although some of the Senkaku are above water enough to constitute slightly more than a "reef" (something that is only above water at low tide), they are not large enough or even capable of being developed into truely inhabited "islands". 67.190.227.132 (talk) 04:06, 13 March 2011 (UTC)AED.

I believe that some of the "formations" are of sufficient size to be called islands. John Smith's (talk) 11:16, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

This is very POV. Look at the Liancourt Rocks article, which doesn't use Dokdo, or Takeshima, despite Korean de-jure control over the islands. It should be called the Pinnacle Islands, and Diaoyutai and Senkaku should be redirected to Pinnacle islands, just like Dokdo/Takeshima is redirected to Liancourt islands. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.81.233.159 (talk) 04:38, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Lvhis, 24 February 2011

{{edit protected}} Dear Admin: Please add the template {{POV-title}} on this protected article when the dispute and discussion about the title is ongoing. Several users think the template should be added. Only several hours after it had been added, the previous {{POV-title}} was removed by some users who were not following the wiki policy Wikipedia:POV Cleanup. I think the tag {{POV-title}} shall be removed only when a consensus has been reached or one party walks away as giving up. Thank you! --Lvhis (talk) 20:41, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand the point of that page. It concerns the cleanup of articles by a certain group of Wikipedia editors that are tagged. It isn't policy on the use of tags. John Smith's (talk) 21:20, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Negative. ORG interpretation.--Lvhis (talk) 21:49, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

 Not done for now: Can you please point me to the agreement that this tag is warranted? Or at least name the "several users" who agree with you. It is not clear to me that there is consensus for this change. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:47, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Dear Martin(MSGJ): at least user:STSC and user:Bobthefish2 agreed with me on this tag. Also, the tag mainly tells there exits dispute on certain issue's NPOV, and it is not necessary interpreted as this issue must certainly be POV, whether or not which will be is pending the ongoing discussion. This tag has another name {{NPOV-title}}. Perhaps if I had used this name it would have been less misunderstanding and controversy. The dispute on the title of this article clearly exists here and it resulted in the current full protection. If this tag is denied to add, it is almost equal to saying there is no dispute here. Regards.--Lvhis (talk) 18:39, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Is the title POV?

Okay, Lvhis, I'd like to hear your argument why you believe the title is POV. Note, though, that your reason cannot include the fact that the islands themselves are disputed--that fact is explicitly not a factor in the naming of the article per the guidelines. There are many places under disputed ownership in the world (List of territorial disputes has dozens, although the name isn't necessarily different in all of those cases), and for each of those cases, Wikipedia has articles with one and only one title. Per guidelines, names are chosen to reflect the name most commonly used in English. Do you have any evidence other than your own intuition that "Senkaku/Diaoyu" is the commonly used name for the islands in reliable sources? Note, again, per the guidelines, I don't mean sources in which both names are mentioned (i.e., "called Diayou in China, but called Senkaku in Japan"), but, rather, names which the dual name is explicitly used as the islands name? Qwyrxian (talk) 21:52, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Very good argument. If the POV-Title was still on there, I would be happy to discuss this with you. Now, I am not interested in. Because this article and its title now are looked like without dispute on them. Anyway, thanks.--Lvhis (talk) 21:58, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Lvhis, if you're serious that the title is POV you should want to talk about it regardless of whether a tag is there or not. A tag doesn't somehow make the discussion worthwhile. John Smith's (talk) 23:07, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

I have a feeling that this is bordering on wiki-WP:LAWYERing. In the English language, very few dual names (such as A-B or A/B) are actually used due to its bad form. As a result, articles tend to reference the two names in an equal fashion but without using this kind of conjunction. Before you start referencing the WP policy on naming, I'd remind you once again the dual-name standards you mentioned are almost completely based on your preference - i.e. there are very little standard being set on WP regarding dual-names.

Now, I don't mean to start a debate about naming on every single thread, but I find it baffling that you seem to pretend there is no POV involved after pages of discussions being written. Maybe we really do need a little chat, since it doesn't really make sense to have an editor opposing a proposal of a RfC to take part in writing it - It's almost like filing a half-hearted lawsuit. Bobthefish2 (talk) 22:09, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Bob, what I find baffling is that you continue to misread the guideline. It says, completely unambiguously, that we may only use a dual name if the dual name is actually the most common English name. It says that explicitly. It even goes further to say that dual names cannot be used to solve POV disputes. The policy is just up a few sections, and it is completely unambiguous in this matter. I don't understand how you can keep saying that this is our preference, or that the guidelines don't set standards, or whatever. Either you simply aren't reading well, or you're lying. I actually believe it's the former rather than the latter, but I seriously don't understand. Qwyrxian (talk) 12:53, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

I was on the verge on groveling in front of you and somehow admit I didn't rules correctly... until I've done a little digging.

This is what Naming Conventions on Multiple Local Names look like now and this is what it looked like in October 2010 (I randomly chose that month). Apparently, some Pamela Anderson User:Pmanderson added that little extra bit you were accusing me of not acknowledging. It was done on December 6, 2010 and there were no discussions on "Multiple Local Names" in sight within the article talk page or its recent archives (dating back to 2009).

And of course, when I did a little bit of background check on our friend Pamela. It appears he/she is not an admin after all and has no special privileges in writing the standards of WP. He/she was also recently accused of multiple violations and recipient to several ANI's. Given what I saw, perhaps we can even have our friend User:John Smith's go there and re-write the rules in whatever way we like too.

QED?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobthefish2 (talk • contribs)

Bob, if you want to arbitrarily re-write policy or guidance, I'm the last person you want to ask. I would only comment that a) you don't have to have special privileges to edit such pages, b) the edit was not challenged (as far as I can see) despite the fact it is fairly regularly edited and c) the page is still clear that a double+ name is unsatisfactory because it leads to arguments over which name should be first. If you want to say this leaves the door open to a change in this case, please knock yourself out by opening a new move request or some other official means to resolve the issue. But, please, just do it rather than talk about it. Or don't do it and let us move on from this matter. John Smith's (talk) 21:06, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

As far as I know, the naming guideline did not disallow the use of dual names until some random guy came in and decided to offer his two cents. And of course, can we even trust the guidelines when people with no special privileges can come in and write practically anything they want.

Furthermore, you should not consider uncontested edits to be automatically acceptable. After all, very few pages in Wikipedia are actually under constant surveillance.

Anyhow, you aren't obliged to take part in this if you aren't interested. But speaking of moving on, I think you should comment on User:Qwyrxian's wrap up about the PD RfC. I think we would very much like to move on from that too. Bobthefish2 (talk) 21:36, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

The page in question is edited fairly regularly. But you either think these things apply or they don't. You can't cherry-pick which parts are valid. If you're unhappy with it, a very simple way to address it would be to start a discussion on the talk page suggesting the section be withdrawn. You could notify the regular editors to the article for good measures. If no one objects after a week or two, you can remove it.

What "wrap up"? John Smith's (talk) 23:17, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

My British friend, I am afraid you'd need to read up on what's WP:CHERRY-picking before proceeding. Since you apparently did not understand the problem, I'd remind you that the question is about the credibility of the contents in that particular WP guideline page. Even if it is regularly edited, it doesn't mean all of its contents are correct or up to standards. After all, Senkaku Islands/Senkaku Islands dispute had that very bad Remin Ribao text for a long while before the first complaints showed up. And by the looks of it, some pretty appropriate changes would be made to it soon.

Also, the "wrap up" is here. Well, at least it is an attempt at wrapping up. Bobthefish2 (talk) 23:55, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, now I get it. See, even though I have problems with your style at times, Bobthefish2, I really did not think that you were just ignoring the written guidelines. Looking back at my contribution list, I'm pretty sure I didn't get involved in this article (and thus, the issue of dual names) until after that change was already made, and thus I only knew the current version. Okay, well, that's all behind us now! So, now that we all know what the guideline is, we can apply it to this article, and I'm pretty sure we agree that the listed exception doesn't apply to these islands. So, does anyone still want to argue for Pinnacle Islands (the only real alternative to Senkaku, as far as I know)? Qwyrxian (talk) 01:59, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

I guess a few points didn't strike home:

• The new sentence you cited was added after your RfC... Let's see, the change was made on December 6, 2010. Then there's User:Qwyrxian's little rant about S/D as a solution on November 30, 2010. Oh but nevermind, that must be some other User:Qwyrxian I saw posting. Apologies.
• There were no discussions in Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)#Multiple_local_names from 2009 to now about "Multiple Local Names".
• Anyone could've made changes to the page
• The person who made that particular change with the new sentence had a questionable editorial history and is not a person of any authority in WP

Anyhow, it appears I might have to file an RfC about this after all... Let's see, some random user changed some parts of a guideline while a long-running dispute remained to be solved. Then the opposition decided to cite this change as some gospel. I don't know, do you think some people can wiki-WP:LAWYER their way out of this? Bobthefish2 (talk) 02:34, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Oops, now I have to confess to misreading. I thought you said the wording changed in October. Okay, so, the wording changed in December. Maybe what we need to do is table the discussion here and then go discuss it over on that page's naming conventions? I think we need the "broad" consensus first on whether or not the community feels strongly enough about the issue of dual names. While the general principle of "Silence implies consent" could be said to apply to the guideline, it's fairly recently that it was added, so I certainly feel a little uncomfortable relying upon it as a definitive position. Now, of course, the problem is that I agree with the guideline the way it's written now--note that I agree with this in all cases, not just the case of these islands, because it makes sense to me. I don't like the idea of Wikipedia essentially renaming places because the ownership of a place is disputed. For example, I certainly would not support Kuril Islands being renamed to Kuril/Chishima Islands. As such, I don't really feel comfortable raising the issue. I don't believe you should jump directly to an RfC there, because RfC's are generally reserved for after a dispute, but I do think it would make sense that if you disagree with the guideline the way it's written now, that you raise it on the guideline's talk page. Would you be willing to table the discussion here until we get the guideline hashed out there? Qwyrxian (talk) 14:27, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough. I will write something there in the near future.

The Kuril Islands is a very different matter because it is completely controlled by Russia and Japan has renounced all rights to it in the San Francisco Treaty (even though USSR did not sign it). This scenario is as relevant as Falkland Islands, where the British also had complete control over the islands and won a war over it. Unless you have reasonable counterarguments against these two cases, I certainly hope you don't bring them up again (and force me to repeat). Bobthefish2 (talk) 19:19, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Bob, you put great store in the San-Fran Treaty. Does this mean, for example, that you regard the "unequal treaties" China signed as being perfectly valid? China says that it was forced to sign them, so they were invalid, and I assume that's one reason Japan still claims the Kuril Islands, as it didn't really have a choice but to sign. John Smith's (talk) 23:31, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

My friend. Before you proceed further with your denunciation of the San Francisco Treaty, you'd have to be careful about what type of debate you are going to get yourself into. After all, a great many international treaties are signed between victors and losers. This includes the Treaty of Versailles and all the demilitarization rules imposed on Germany and Japan. At the same time, while I am not a Chinese historian, my feeling is that almost all the elements of the unequal treaties imposed on China have since been neutralized through subsequent diplomatic actions - In other words they no longer exist.

Now, if you really do want to get into a debate on international law, I don't think this is the right platform of discussion. Suppose you would like to write an article about the invalidity of the "San Francisco Treaty", you might want to go start a discussion there instead. Bobthefish2 (talk) 23:47, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Bob, you need to stop putting words in people's mouths. I didn't say it was invalid, I wanted to check that you had a consistent approach to the matter of the "unequal treaties". And you didn't quite answer my question. What if it was the case that they hadn't been "neutralised" through subsequent diplomatic actions? Would the "unequal treaties" still have been valid. John Smith's (talk) 00:39, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

My British friend, you should be careful about pointing fingers at people. Since you appeared to disagree with the fairness of the SF Treaty, I was simply advising you on a possibility to bring the matter to the right place.

However, you were right that it was quite an one-sided treaty. After all, the Japanese were in no position to contest the terms after losing its entire army to some failed invasion campaigns in China and Oceania.

As for your "what-if" question, I don't see how it is relevant. If you have a particular example you would like to discuss, then you should present it instead. Bobthefish2 (talk) 02:09, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry I mentioned the Kuril Islands--they were just one of the first places I thought of that are disputed territory. I was just trying to say why I think that the guideline as written now is actually a good guideline, and I believe should be used on this page and any other page about disputed territory, and that was why I was not willing to go raise the issue on the talk page there. Let's all back away from a wholly irrelevant issue. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:53, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Protected b/c Dispute

{{editprotected}} Has there been any discussion on if {{pp-dispute}} should be placed on the article? Would it even be appropriate here? – Ajl^talk 02:38, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Personally, given that there's been no discussion here on the issue in over 3 weeks, I think we can probably unlock the article. Anyone still feel the need to edit war? 04:04, 25 March 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Qwyrxian (talk • contribs)

I have alerted the admin who protected the article. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:32, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

N Protected edit declined because there is not (yet) consensus for it. Please make {{editprotected}} requests only after establishing consensus.  Sandstein  12:20, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Huh... I would have thought the history of edit warring would have been the proof of consensus that the ("current" state of the) article was in dispute... Oh well. – Ajl^talk 15:13, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Also, there's a flaw with that logic as well. Using that logic, if I noticed a grammar mistake (i.e. a "s" missing from an obviously plural word), I would have to get consensus to make the change of something that should be a uncontroversial change. – Ajl^talk 15:13, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

 Done I've changed the protection template to {{pp-dispute}} as that is why it's been protected. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 16:04, 25 March 2011 (UTC)