User talk:Jimbo Wales

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Wikipedia's Ignore All Rules policy

Here is the entirety of the text of Wikipedia's "ignore all rules" policy: "If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it." Doesn't exactly seem to mesh with a culture of protecting legitimate intellectual property rights, does it? Improving and maintaining Wikipedia > rules that protect real people's real work? Townlake (talk) 18:02, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't call "copyright violations" as "improving Wikipedia". That would harm Wikipedia and so the rule couldn't apply. The rule works.--v/r - TP 18:12, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Townlake: I just read it again and it doesn't say or mean that at all. I think you need to read it again. Mugginsx (talk) 18:34, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Precisely.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:36, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

US law is non-negotiable, and entirely outside our control, even for actions that otherwise improve the encyclopedia. Of course there are a very large grey area of cases that are either untested or have conflicting case law (e.g. if I heavily paraphrase a document but retain its overall structure, is that a copyvio or not? what about a long quotation like 2-3 paragraphs? answer seems to be "it depends/not sure"). At Commons we run into these all the time, particularly when it comes to threshold of originality. Dcoetzee 00:09, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

I do not believe the first is copyvio as you have described it. Apparently copyright lawyers' do not either or we would have been sued a long time ago and successfully. People's quotations are not copyrighted. If those quotations are put into a book and the book copyrighted and book is exactly quoted and in large measure that is different. Mugginsx (talk) 08:56, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Case law is all over the map. Recently Warner Bros. and J. K. Rowling vs. RDR Books held that fictional facts, detailed plot summaries, and paraphrased character descriptions infringe unless they are accompanied by sufficiently detailed commentary and analysis of the sort that WP:NOR forbids. If its standard were applied to Wikipedia I'd say that most if not the vast majority of our articles on contemporary fiction would be considered infringement. On the other hand cases like Feist v. Rural allow verbatim copying of vast compilations of facts when no creative expression is involved. To make matters even more confusing, the safe harbor provisions of the DMCA permit blatant infringement to exist as long as it is properly addressed in response to requests from the copyright holders. So we have strikingly contradictory rules which most editors don't understand, resulting in vastly misplaced motivations and effort. Let's just say that most of the work to address copyright on Wikipedia is not exactly futile, but is seriously close to worthless, in terms of protecting content users including the Foundation from liability. 67.6.163.68 (talk) 07:48, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Crep. Someone tried to publish for profit a lexicon to the Hogwarts universe, based entirely on JK Rowling's books and other info she's published. I do not see that the case is at all applicable to Wikipedia. We are not profiting off other people's work.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:57, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Copyright law does not say "If you give the infringing material away it ceases to be an infringement." Collect (talk) 12:33, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Not quite, it does say that "the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes"is one of the 4 specified US fair use factors, which gives us quite a leg up. In the Rowling decision, that factor was negative, and here it is always positive. DGG ( talk ) 17:36, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Except that the license under which we publish is explicitly commercial, as are many of the Foundation's trademark branding agreements and downstream users. 67.6.163.68 (talk) 01:19, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Copyright law is not a Wikipedia rule, although we have a rule that highlights the law. In the statutory chain, laws always come above rules. Therefore, IAR cannot be invoked to ignore a law that's higher in the food chain. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:48, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

This is logical. However, the policy does not say this, and offers no differentiation between a "law" and a "rule". The policy is stated as simply as possible, with zero explanation, and ends up looking like a wild overreach. You can't count on users to read 15 other pages for explanation of this policy when the policy page itself doesn't go into any detail. Townlake (talk) 04:58, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that copyright infringements improve Wikipedia? That's the only scenario in which the policy applies in the manner you describe. —David Levy 05:31, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

You, I, and Jimbo all know the answer to that. But I sure didn't learn the answer from the IAR page. Townlake (talk) 06:02, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Your complaint is that the policy page lacks an exhaustive list of the things that do and don't improve Wikipedia? —David Levy 06:32, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Strawman. Townlake (talk) 06:52, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

No, it's a question. Please feel free to explain what you actually meant when you noted that the IAR page didn't teach you that copyright infringements don't improve Wikipedia. —David Levy 15:46, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Your invitation to join you in additional unproductive dialogue is declined. Townlake (talk) 20:18, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

That's your prerogative. But please don't expect people to understand your concerns if you decline to clarify your ambiguous statements. —David Levy 20:53, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Errr, there's a nice big box at the top of WP:COPYRIGHTS that says "This page documents a Wikipedia policy with legal considerations" ... seems to cover it in the text itself for all intents and purposes. There's also not a policy entitled WP:PleaseDontEditWikipediaAtABar,GetDrunk,ThenDriveHome :-) (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 21:49, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

The copyrights page is a different page from IAR. You're coming at this from the nuanced perspective of a Wikipedia veteran, but there's no experience requirement to edit Wikipedia. Townlake (talk) 01:52, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Come on people, I think the reader knows that a "rule" means a Wikipedia rule, not any and all laws of their jurisdiction. Pity, as I'd hoped to strangle a few deletionists and tell the police it was IAR. It's even Wikilinked in the policy if they look. Wnt (talk) 04:57, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

It is very easy to use Wikipedia to commit copyright infringement, believing that one is actually helping Wikipedia and the infringement is really no big deal. You think this is obvious, but editors frequently commit copyright infringement here, so I do not think it is obvious enough. And your joke about physical violence is inappropriate. Townlake (talk) 14:40, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Mr. Wales, The way I feel about the shutdown is; If you're going to do it, do it soon, because there may not be a chance to do it in the future. Even If we fail at making a major indent on the bill, It will potentially raise massive opposition of the bill. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.212.165.10 (talk) 08:17, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your contribution to this conversation. Townlake (talk) 14:40, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

"Ignore all rules" stands alone in triumph for its remarkable features as a Wikipedia icon. It is both Wikipedia's best policy, and also its worst named policy. Geometry guy 01:22, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Excessive templates and formatting "br"

18-Dec-2011: Back to the other major concerns which you have emphasized during 2011, the English Wikipedia still has a staggering number of templates, many thousands of which I doubt are needed. As a computer scientist, I along with others had been somewhat shocked, when you raised the issue of too many div-tags ("<div>") and templates being used in your user-page and others. However, looking at the vast of ocean of WP templates, copied into many minor variations, has confirmed that you are indeed right about excessive use of templates (and div-tags where they seem totally unneeded). A related issue, raised by your concern about div-tags, is the old obsession with coding a line-break br-tag by "<br />" as being, specifically, "<br space />" when the simple "<br>" tag (without the space-slash) is automatically converted into "<br />" when a WP page is formatted for transfer over the Internet. NOTE WELL: There is no need for pages to contain the space-slash form "<br />" because "<br>" generates exactly the same result in the MediaWiki markup. So the obsessive overuse of the space-slash br-tags is another case of widespread unneeded complexity in pages. In wondering why you, specifically, had noted the excessive complexity with unneeded templates and such, I think many of us had simply accepted the whole mess in general, while being distracted by editing all the myriad details, instead of seeing the "big picture" as you seemed to note. Of course, the infobox templates are still needed in the thousands, to format specific data for thousands of major categories, such as nations, cities, musicians, actors, footballers, films, songs, sports, species, etc. However, by focusing more on simplification, then many unneeded templates can be removed from pages, and people can just put a simple "<br>" to break a line, without the excessive space-slash "<br />" complexity. -Wikid77 (talk) 15:17, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Of all the complexity issues, you have to pick this one? Both <br> and <br /> are havid HTML/XHTML tags. The space-slash is not needlesly complicated; it is just valid markup, just like <references />. — Edokter (talk) — 19:03, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, I will agree that the space-slash form "<br />" is not as complicated as the financial calculations for commercial loan payments using the Actual/366 calendar, but if people were told that full stops, or periods, at the end of sentences had to be replaced by "<fstop />" (with the space-slash), then I think that would be considered needlessly complicated, compared to even "<.>" to end a sentence. Remember, the MediaWiki preprocessor markup could use any token to indicate a newline break (such as "\n"), so it is enough to use "<br>" to indicate a line-break, until "\n" is recognized as being an even simpler notation. -Wikid77 (talk) 21:11, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Of course you can use the template{{Break}}, to avoid leading people into mark-up. And you can drastically cut the number of apparent templates used by replacing most redirects them with their canonical versions. And templates can be made easier by having standards, like using full words, not running words together, using sensible capitalisation.

People like Andy Mabbot, MSGJ, Platikspork, Magioladitis, Dr Blofeld and myself have put a lot of effort over the years into merging templates. For example, we now have two portal templates in general use (which will become one), one for template building and one for banners, whereas there were hundreds. Of course we get opposed at every turn, generally by folk who see it as an assault on something they wish to WP:OWN but also by folk who should know better, including admins and arbs. Rich Farmbrough, 19:26, 18 December 2011 (UTC).

Re the painful "space-slash" in <br />: I have opposed that once or twice (and have particularly opposed some edits which only inserted the space-slash in multiple articles). The explanation I was given is that whereas Wikipedia uses HTML Tidy which inserts the space-slash (in case there is a browser somewhere in the galaxy that needs it), some other sites which copy Wikipedia content do not. So, the aim is to ensure that perfect HTML is produced on all sites (including those who have copied content). Johnuniq (talk) 02:31, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that explanation trying to ensure mirror websites get "perfect HTML" in pages from Wikipedia. I guess it is unfortunate that those pages might also contain vandalism or outdated text to ruin the effect of the perfect HTML on mirror sites. Those concerns about mirror-site perfection have inspired the essay "WP:Wikipedia is free not gift-wrapped" (WP:NOTGIFT). However, it is interesting to note there are many ways to rationalize any opinion about formatting text. -Wikid77 (talk) 16:24, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

I hope the slight snearing in my message indicated that I also find the explanation unpersuasive (i.e. I believe wikitext should be optimized for the convenience of editors at Wikipedia, and ugly and totally unnecessary "corrections" should be banished). I like your essay. Johnuniq (talk) 00:55, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

• Many editors see MediaWiki markup as HTML: I think a major problem has been that editors believe that Wikipedia pages are basically written in HTML, rather than a special text-formatting markup language (for desktop publishing) with extra parameters "{{{xx}}}" and so they think "<br>" must be changed to be the "valid standard" in HTML (or XHTML). Meanwhile in keeping "<br>", I would also like for Wikipedia to extend the preprocessor to use typical escape characters, such as a backslash, where "\n" would denote the newline break (same as "<br>"), "\b" would be a single blank space, and then add "\*" to be a newline bullet, and "\::" would be a newline-double-indent, etc. From that start, then parameter names could use an alternate escape format, such as "\(xx)" (same as "{{{xx}}}") where a literal right parenthesis would be "\)" inside a parameter value. Perhaps the cumbersome non-breaking space "&nbsp;" could be denoted by "\+" where a non-breaking phrase could be coded as "aa\+bb\+cc" but I realize those additions to the preprocessor would require time to debate. -Wikid77 (talk) 14:51, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

The most likely reason many editors would use <br /> is, as mentioned, they are used to it as the valid HTML standard. If this is an issue, update the Wikimedia software to convert <br />'s into <br>, and add a faq on "why my <br /> was changed to <br>." Alternately, have the software convert it to {{break}}. Nobody Ent (Gerardw) 15:34, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

suggestion to re-format confusing appeal banner at the top of a search result page

Hi - the current appeal banner atop a search result page shows the photo of a person urging support of Wikipedia on the left above the name in bold of the search subject.

Though even a first-time visitor may come to realize that the photo which looks like it's identified as the search subject isn't that person, why court confusion?

One option: re-format the appeal banner so its photo appears both closer to the "Please Read" text and to the right of that text, rather than all the way to the left above what appears to be a caption naming the search subject. Granjacks (talk) 17:10, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Interesting...

How someone other than you deleted a post from your talk page. Knitwitted (talk) 17:38, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

That's the wrong diff, you meant this. Looie496 (talk) 17:51, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your help! Best, Knitwitted (talk) 18:09, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

That happens really frequently. I've noticed there are a few people who patrol Jimbo's talk page and user page and delete stuff. -MsBatfish (talk) 00:10, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Voice recognition software

Hello Mr Wales. I was just wondering if voice recognition software could be used with Wikipedia. Such as for the search engine. Just an idea, I wonder if it could work. --TrebleSeven (talk) 19:31, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

This is a very important question. With the advent of intelligent software assistants like Siri and the slow movement towards the transparent computing paradigm (ubiquitous computing) Wikipedia will have to go in this direction as user environments decouple from hardware and extend out into the real world. Viriditas (talk) 22:00, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Update. IBM has been talking about the future of bioinformatics headsets in the news today, which reminded me of the brain–computer interface currently manufactured by Emotiv Systems.[1] As an aside, I'm personally interested in buying one of these and testing it out on Wikipedia. Has anyone tried to edit or develop with it? Viriditas (talk) 02:23, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Maybe, it would be amazing if Wikipedia would have this software. One word = 1000! What do you think of this, Jimbo? --TrebleSeven (talk) 09:45, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

File:Wikipedia Change The Ratio Logo.jpg

Wikipedia has this new file at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wikipedia_Change_The_Ratio_Logo.jpg.

• 

—Wavelength (talk) 20:37, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Wrong in so many ways. How many XY editors do we have to shed to get to 50:50? Nobody Ent (Gerardw) 18:03, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

...or how many sex changes men would have to make. –MuZemike 18:07, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

A sex change wouldn't affect the ratio of cytogenetically male (XY) vs. cytogenetically female (XX) editors. Also, this is discrimination against editors with aneuploidy. That logo implies that people with Turner syndrome, Triple X syndrome, or Klinefelter's have no place here. (Ok, that wasn't a serious objection). MastCell ^Talk 18:12, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Who says editing is a zero-sum game? Diversity is an additive, not a substractive, movement. The more women around here, the better. --Orange Mike | Talk 18:13, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

As ratio is a relationship between two numbers, there is nothing inherent about the goal which indicates whether reaching it is additive or subtractive. If the WMF goal is to increase women editors, a goal of "600,000 by 2015" would be appropriate, "fix the ratio" is not. Reliable sources indicate diversity is not inherently additive: [2]. Nobody Ent (Gerardw) 18:32, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Well it would be here. It's pretty amazing to get pushback on this -- amazing, but not surprising. Herostratus (talk) 18:49, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Could someone explain to me how edits by male editors differ from those by female editors? Yes, I know, it's a participation thing, isn't it. Hoorah. But hang on, I thought my gender didn't matter here. In fact, my gender is undisclosed. So how do we get that Big Ratio exactly? So let's hear it for those downtrodden aneuploids! Or maybe we really are all just part of an elaborate social networking experiment. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:53, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

I asked that question once in jest and the quite serious answer I got was "they swear less". To which my girlfriend said "fuck that". :) Gender equality is missing the point (on WP). However; more female editors would be good because what we do have divided amongst gender is interests - and a lot of female-interest topics are under developed (although interestingly in my ad-hoc study earlier this year our current crop of female editors don't much edit those topics either, so it is probably not a gender thing as much as an internet-person thing). All of which could be summed up as; more diversity==good. Gender is an easy diversity target (but not the only one) for us to tackle. --Errant ^(chat!) 22:00, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

A reassuringly reasonable response, thanks. But, needless to say, when do we undisclosed third gender editors get our day? And, in the mean time, to which on-line encyclopedia do we flee to escape gender altogether?! Ethnic origin in User Preferences next maybe? Martinevans123 (talk)

It's probably better not to think of it too much in terms of gender; or, rather, ignore much of the gendergap stuff. Eventually it will become not-PC to mention gender at all. This is kinda my bugbear but it annoys me that the foundation took the brain-dead route and cast this issue in terms of male/female inequality without realising that, as an approach, it is both highly sexist and also wrong :) That's not by definition a problem - but it does (from my observation, and I realise this may present an unpopular view) encourage the more, umm, opinionated types to soapbox. What the inequality thing seems to consistently miss is that this is not a "too many guys" issue, it's about a the internet sub-culture in general. It has been obvious for many years that people who contribute (as opposed to consume) the internet are for the most part young males of a certain type. In that respect we actually do a really really job of having a broader range of not-that-sort-of-person. Even if we are a bit light on one gender.

I can't remember the exact words for it, but it is some sort of cause/effect fallacy. i.e. "There is an inequality problem on Wikipedia. There are less female than male editors. Therefore increasing female participation redresses the balance". This is of course just sexism rendered in a more modern and palatable light (you will find it widely expressed in modern society, unfortunately) - eventually someone important will twig that it's not about gender but *people* and that they are confusing the actual gender inequality issue (i.e. men historically screwed women over both metaphorically and literally, and the vestiges of that persist in modern times) with simpyl having a large group of a particular class/type. You could almost certainly do the same studies with another minority (jews, blacks, etc.) and get broadly the same results (and indeed with have, to wit the global south issue, which amusingly is part of the same problem, but no one seems to have noticed).

It's an unfortunate historical side effect that when someone says the word "inequality" people default to creating one of a few binary groupings and wax lyrical about them. I talked to a gender equality person a few months ago whose theory was that Wikipedia was too combative, that this was sexist and that it put off women from participating - completely oblivious to how sexist their own theory was (toward women). She'd identified a problem, but had got lost by picking a broad group of people (women), generalising them in a ludicrous way, and proclaiming this as a universal theory. And I think that sums up the whole gender gap stuff; the issue has been identified (inequality) but no one seems to be fixing it, rather they are standing around being sympathetic, conducting studies and theorizing (I mean that as a general criticism; I know some very smart individuals who are actually doing pro-active things to address this). Gender is purely misdirection and hopefully soon we will get over it. --Errant ^(chat!) 22:55, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps you and I are reading different source material; I've never seen the WMF, or really any of the people active in addressing the gender gap, frame the discussion in terms of equality. The gap represents a huge missed opportunity, and a source of imbalance in Wikimedia content... but I don't think "equality" per se is implicated, so perhaps you are countering an argument that has not been made. Nathan ^T 02:25, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Phew! Thank goodness. Can't wait. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:06, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

If you have less than 10% female participants in an enterprise like ours, that indicates a problem. All the handwaving and crying of reverse sexism and making excuses in the world doesn't alter that. If 90% of your sales people, or engineers, or executives, or partners, or whatever are male, then there is something systematically wrong with your enterprise. Everyone understands this (which is why enterprises like that often end up explaining themselves to a judge). And in fact you (Errant) apparently recognize this since you write with apparent approval of "individuals who are actually doing pro-active things to address this". So why all the false analogies, excuses, and denials of the obvious in order to defend the indefensible? Herostratus (talk) 03:56, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Just purely out of curiosity... I'm sure the percentage of all truck drivers who are male is over 90%. What is "systematically wrong" with the enterprise of shipping and transportation that has caused this imbalance, and should it be addressed? Nathan ^T 02:25, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

1. The "reported number is 13%" 2. Voluntary self response surveys suck 3. At least some research [3] indicates some women participants in the internet may hide their gender. 4. As the link I provided above indicated, "ratio" solutions are likely to reduce male participants. 5. Saying "50/50 ratio is a stupid goal " ≠ "Wikipedia has no problems" Nobody Ent (Gerardw) 04:08, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

The most recent number was 8–9%.[4] If women are lying about their gender, they seem to only be doing it on Wikipedia. Similar surveys of other online communities usually show a majority of females these days. I do think having a more balanced ratio would actually benefit the encyclopedia. We seem to have a lot of articles that are presented from a predominantly male point of view. The dating article was almost comically biased for a while. And then there was the time when the shorts article was illustrated entirely with women in hot pants. Kaldari (talk) 08:08, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Similar surveys of other online communities usually show a majority of females these days; wow, source for such studies? I'm very very dubious on that one. In terms of the bias that's less to do with lack of female editors than with the type of editors. And ties back to my point that you are confusing equality issues with having 50% women. The problem here is not a gender issue, it is the predominance of a certain type of person. One activity I have seen is people giving talks at the girl geek dinners. Which is great, don't get me wrong, but it fails to realise those have a high ratio of exactly the same sort of people. They just happen to be female. :) If 90% of your sales people, or engineers, or executives, or partners, or whatever are male, then there is something systematically wrong with your enterprise.; what about secretaries? Mine workers? Lumberjacks? Nursing? All of which are predominantly one-sex industries. These help identify the fallacy, and inadvertent sexism, in your approach. Which is to assume ideally every job should be 50% of each sex. That's stupid. Equality is really about opportunity. I have the same opportunity as anyone else to go work down a mine - but I'd hope that anyone interviewing me would reject me as unsuitable (lacking the characteristics that make a good miner). Equality is that when a woman applying for the job exhibits those qualities she doesn't get rejected for her sex. You are right; corporate culture used to be disposed against women (less so nowadays). The key issue here is; more diversity is good. But casting it along gender lines is ignoring the actual issue in favour of something politically advantageous. What we need to offer here is equality in opportunity - to contribute and become involved. Which means taking the "power base" away from the current type of person that sits on it :) --Errant ^(chat!) 11:36, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not going to dig too heavy into the drama llama and obvious troll-assholeness that was involved in sharing this logo (which was created by two women who have been interested in and have done some blogging and outreach related to Wikimedia projects with women), but, first, a study was released a few months ago in the United States that states that women are more active in social media aspects of the internet. Here is a briefing of it from Mashable. While Kaldari states, I'm presuming sarcastically, that women in Wikipedia are lying because they're the only one's complaining (paraphrase), anyone who is active in open source communities is generally well aware of the extreme gender gap in the landscape, and Wikipedia is an open source community. This study, (unfortunately) from 2006, discusses that an estimated 2% of participants in open source are women. It's early, and I haven't caffeinated yet, but, if if people want to argue about this, then they really need to open their eyes and stop stating the non-obvious and denying the concept. If they aren't happy with the focus or interest people are putting on it, perhaps they can focus their energy on something that interests them more. We have problems in the community, and it moves beyond Wikipedia, and into roles of leadership within technology, cultural organizations, and more. As a woman who is active in both, I've experienced the best and worst of people - men and women - and I'm well aware of the lack of women's roles in these communities. Perhaps your experience in England is different, perhaps different than my experience as a woman in the community in the United States. I wish I could say that I was given the same opportunity as you, but in the United States, that's not always the case. Here, I'm a bitch for being driven, but if a man acts the way I do, he's a strong man who people want to be around. That's just one example, but, I'm glad you have had a good quality experience in England. Where I don't think any women serve on the Wikimedia UK board and that there are only one or two women active in the chapter (perhaps I'm wrong). Wikimedia is also aware that this needs to move beyond gender - it needs to move into Indigenous communities, in the United States, African American and Latino communities (and beyond), we desperately need more diversity in order to make the encyclopedia and its related projects of ultimate value for the world. By exploring opportunities to bring more women into the community, and work on user retention and creating a more welcoming environment, we can start that process. What the heck is wrong with that? On another note, I don't think any of us are begging for equality in jobs. I don't care if we have more female lumberjacks, hockey players, etc, just like I don't care if we have more male executive assistants or make up artists. What I do care about, is that those people who wants those jobs who aren't of the "typical gender," are giving the same opportunity to have those jobs as the "appropriate" gender. I think the majority of supporters of equality would probably agree with me. SarahStierch (talk) 16:02, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Hey Sarah; I agree with your analysis - except I argue that casting it as a gender issue is largely misdirection. What frustrates me is that your reply seems to come across as seeing my views as the standard anti-feminism sexist stuff. I'm sorry that it came across like that because (as I hope you will see in a moment) that's not me at all :) It feels a little like you have not read or thought about what I have tried to say. I've done a lot of outreach with kids and technology (not for Wikipedia, in general) and fighting the "internet is a boy thing" issue is a real challenge. But really it's "internet is a geek thing", because I get the same line from probably 90% of the people I try to get involved. One thing I have learned is that if you pursue the gender issue it doesn't really get you anywhere in solving the problem and simply polarises on a small fraction of the issue. As I suggested above - you could get 50:50 parity of male/female editors (and that is a good thing) but the problem would still be there - because everyone will be the same sort of person. As a friend of mine puts it; if you put an average guy and an average woman in the same room as an aggressive alpha male they are likely to both have similar negative emotions (even if the reasons for them are different). The problem in that room is not a man, it is a type of person. I readily admit to being within that "type" (young, white, middle class, educated, time on my hands) - but we do need to do something about it. I just don't feel like what has been done so far has moved in an ultimately productive direction. As a driven woman in the tech scene I can see how it would be difficult for you in many arenas. That I am sure is a gender issue. What we struggle with here, I argue, is a lack of diversity. and the key thing is; one thing I like about Wikipedia is that no one appears to treat each other differently because of your sex.. partly because most don't reveal it, and partly because it's an impersonal medium. --Errant ^(chat!) 17:26, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't think Sarah was just responding to your personal argument Errant. Many of the other responses in this thread have been "standard anti-feminism" stuff. I agree that part of the issue is that Wikipedia "is a geek thing" and we need to increase diversity overall. However, people who are actively making an effort to do outreach to other communities and demographics should not be ridiculed by our community (as this thread is doing). The bottom line is we need more diversity and we need more women to make a better encyclopedia. Addressing that issue isn't easy and there are a lot of different strategies to try. Making fun of the people who are trying (like the 'tribal councils' joke below) definitely isn't going to help. Also, I would like to point out that women aren't just the majority of social networking users, they are also the majority of bloggers,[5] which undercuts your argument that contributing content on the internet is mostly a guy thing. Kaldari (talk) 18:24, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I appreciate Kaldari pointing out that I wasn't intending to respond directly to just Errant - Errant, I never intended to come off sarcastic (except my comment about the trolly reason for posting the icon in the first place), and I regret that my writing my have came off that way. And yes, I was providing more of a general response to the negative aspects of the community seen in this section of Jimbo's talk page and a bit about your own experiences. Again, never meant to come off attacking or sarcastic towards you! I also openly admit - this is like beating a dead horse for me these days, it's really tiring and I just get "fed up" having to sometimes express myself over and over again about how there are problems, and we need to solve them. So, nothing personal :) SarahStierch (talk) 19:16, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Heh, don't worry about it, my fault too. --Errant ^(chat!) 19:25, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Well... I'd see blogging as a social media really, but it adds strength to your point. Take an online *community* though (which is what you started with) and you will find it predominantly male. I do agree ridiculing the effort is not appropriate; as I said, some good work is being done. However it is fair to criticise, I think, stuff that is wrong and long term not going to help. Like this image - which comes across firstly as slightly passive aggressive and secondly has the unfortunate consequence of soap-boxing about "the ratio", which is a bad thing. Just my view of course. --Errant ^(chat!) 18:41, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, you have a point with the lumberjacks and mine workers. It does take tremendous upper body strength to edit the Wikipedia -- some of the longer articles weigh over 250 pounds. Herostratus (talk) 13:31, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

You've kinda proven my point there :S --Errant ^(chat!) 17:26, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that the assumption that open source communities are inevitably male dominated is necessarily true. Some do have a pre-existing balance which they are likely to reflect, such as as collaborative software projects. But I don't think it is correct to compare WP to those. In terms of collaborative content and media, which is the bracket in which WP best fits, I would hazard a guess that WP does have a gender balance problem in comparison to its peers. --FormerIP (talk) 19:50, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

The logo is all white. I'm glad to see you want to add more red. Please contact the relevant tribal councils and representatives. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 12:38, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Why should I, or anyone else, care what the gender of an editor is? "Comment on content" and all. This is a poorly designed logo for a poorly thought out idea that comes from a flawed belief that a gender gap is somehow wrong. More female editors would be great. So would more male editors. I don't see why we should prefer one over the other. Wikipedia should try to attract as many editors as possible, but casting this as a gender issue seems deeply misguided. Prodego ^talk 19:50, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Why should we care that Wikipedia is written almost exclusively from the male POV? That the article Rape by gender focuses more on rape of men than rape of women has surely nothing to do with said male POV. Or that it took many weeks to correct a citation error in the article Semen which stated that "women praise the taste of semen" when the source actually said "Let's put it this way: We didn't hear one woman praise the taste of semen." Definitely has nothing to do with the fact that 90% of Wikipedia editors are men. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 22:04, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I am skeptical that the first depends on anything but what the particular author of that page chose to write, and that the second is even a relevant point at all. Prodego ^talk 22:51, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Skepticism can be a good thing: Consider your own argument that we should not give a fuck about the fact that Wikipedia is written almost exclusively from the male POV: This is not something many would understand, but there you have it. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 23:16, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Where did Prodego say that? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 08:20, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Feasible SOPA strike of English wiki

Dear Mr. Wales,

The concept of a possible and seemingly incredibly likely blackout of the English Wikipedia in protest of the Stop Online Piracy Act (and hopefully provisions of the PROTECT IP and National Defense Authorization Act of Fiscal Year 2012 as well) working its way through the dredges of the United States Congress appears to be a grand and noble prospect. Though I highly doubt the success it will generate - due largely to the deep-seated corruption of the US Government - a drastic but desperately required action such as this will be utterly significant in the sense of bringing about public awareness to this and similar subjects of vast importance. As the US Constitution, including the Bill of Rights, continues to departiclize in a dark and unknown oblivion never to be discussed again, the knowledge and concern of the People will be the only possible salvation. The idea of a Wiki blackout may very well trigger such an occurrence.

When the governments (and the corporations and special interests that control them) become destructive in their ends and means, it is up to the citizens of the world - united behind the concepts of liberty, justice and equality - to throw the stone that shatters the glass house, or blow the breath that causes the house of cards to collapse, if you will, even if only in the metaphorical or intellectual fashions. As information and world news censorship keeps expanding into the recesses of totalitarian control, when total suppression of all opposition prevails, without the desire of the People for serious change, no difference or alteration will be made.

I want to keep this brief, so with most of my primary points already stated, all that remains to say (or reaffirm) is this: PLEASE earnestly consider your prior - and possibly also current - position. A Wikipedia blackout, even temporarily, with a forwarded link to a separate page that details the reasons behind it, in my belief, will make a hugely significant difference, not just in terms of online freedom but all other aspects of freedom for Americans as well. With the support of Wikipedia, its parent company Wikimedia and other subsidiaries, the US Constitution, and the people who support it, might stand a fighting chance.

Thank you for your time. God bless, and keep up the great work.

70.15.96.249 (talk) 05:53, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

We're working on this. See Wikipedia:SOPA_initiative, Wikipedia_talk:SOPA_initiative, and Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Coordinated_SOPA_reaction_in_early_2012_RfC. @Jimbo: Can you please place a message on the top of your talk page directing users to the discussions I've linked to? --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 16:40, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

And here's the slippery slope. So now we're not just going to protest SOPA we're also going to protest the National Defense Authorization Act.--Cube lurker (talk) 17:14, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

I didn't see anything about the National Defense Authorization Act in the links, just in the remarks of the editor initiating this thread. If there was anything about the National Defense Authorization Act or other unrelated matters, that would be completely unacceptable, I would say, and you could count me out. And the editors screed about the United States government being corrupt and rights departiclizing in a dark and unknown oblivion and so forth is not helpful and only muddies the waters. Let's stick to our knitting. Herostratus (talk) 17:43, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

I also couldn't find anyone mentioning the National Defense Authorization Act, except for the IP post just above. That demonstrates that the slope isn't slippery—the consensus for any protest is limited only to SOPA. First Light (talk) 18:02, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

For clarity, yes I was refering to the OP, and not the links. And a month and a half ago the sugestion of Wikipedia protesting the National Defense Authorization Act would have been laughable. Today it receives links of where to discuss it.--Cube lurker (talk) 18:18, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

NDAA 2012 was previously discussed on this page. That discussion is archived and viewable at User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_92#Should_we_also_voice_opposition_to_the_National_Defense_Authorization_Act_2012.3F. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 18:22, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, the existance of that thread is my point exactly.--Cube lurker (talk) 18:25, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

I fully agree with only protesting SOPA. We are not listed as a Political Activist Group with the IRS. I believe we are in the group of charitable organizations such as 501(c)(3) status and so we should take care not to lose our status, and for another, Lets keep our eyes on the prize, i.e., defeating SOPA through individual calls and letters. Mugginsx (talk) 18:46, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Cube lurker, even with those links, I'm still not seeing a single Wikipedia editor who is even mildly supporting a protest of the National Defense Authorization Act. One IP here raised it, and another editor just asked the question, without supporting the idea (which was quickly shot down). There is no slope, slippery or otherwise. There is a full stop after SOPA. Nobody but you is suggesting otherwise. First Light (talk) 20:37, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

You can feel free to look up the exact specifications (as I hope you will) of how certain provisions of the National Defense Authorization Act of Fiscal Year 2012 set the proverbial stepping stones for laws such as the SOPA and PROTECT IP acts to become law. Read into Section 954 of NDAA FS2012. It sets a serious precedent, and in the case of internet freedom that is incredibly dangerous, as it can be reflected upon and viewed by Congressional and Executive leaders as a substantial reason to pass SOPA and/or PROTECT IP. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.15.96.249 (talk) 09:06, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Article Feedback Tool V5 & BLP concerns

See Wikipedia:Article Feedback Tool/Version 5 and Wikipedia talk:Article Feedback Tool/Version 5#Will this appear on our watchlists. This new version will drop the ratings, replacing them with comments. "Experienced editors and administrators will have the option to feature posts more prominently, or hide offensive posts." I'm concerned that this will make BLP violations easier than having to edit an article, and so far as I can see comments via the feedback tool will not show up on watchlists which include the relevant article. So possibly more work for Administrators and 'experienced editors' (this not yet defined) at the same time that it may be more difficult to detect BLP violations. I think we need more enWiki editors involved in this. Dougweller (talk) 19:02, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't know exactly how it is going to work. Have you raised these concerns with the developers? You have a valid point about watchlists for sure.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:02, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I raised it at Wikipedia talk:Article Feedback Tool/Version 5#Will this appear on our watchlists. The response seems to be no, and another editor has also expressed their concern. Dougweller (talk) 21:59, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

The latest response is that the public is very unlikely to see this and that putting it on the watchlist would probably be a good idea and will be brought up with people in a couple of weeks. Dougweller (talk) 07:30, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Arbcom Appointments

This is a pre-announcement that there will be no surprises. As usual, I write up a ceremonial "state of the wiki" sort of thing each year to go along with the formal appointments. That'll take a couple more days to complete, and I didn't want anyone getting antsy about it. All is well.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:41, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you Jimbo. I look forward to it. The most interesting man in the world (talk) 16:31, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

You've Got Mail

Hello, Jimbo Wales. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

—cyberpower (X-Mas Chat)(Contrib.) 02:56, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

SOPA markup postponed until January

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2134110/sopa-hearing-postponed --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 14:47, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

No matter what they "officially" give as the reason for the delay - the amount of the amendments (25 according to this source), and the delay itself is a sign of alot of opposition, so keep calling and writing. Mugginsx (talk) 15:45, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Centralized place to discuss proposed action against SOPA??

There seem to be numerous different discussions regarding proposed action against SOPA (such as a "blackout", banner, etc) at various locations, including several at the Village Pump, several at Wikipedia:SOPA initiative, and there have been several here, among other locations (and there are likely many that I don't even know about). This makes it really confusing for people to find out where to discuss or to know where their voice will count. Can't we just have one clear location where discussion takes place?
I am really worried that we will end up doing nothing at all, not because we decided to, but for the sole reason that we discuss it until it is too late without ever reaching any kind of consensus either way and/or that the discussions are all over the place and about so many different proposals so there is no way to even determine whether there is consensus for/against a particular action. -MsBatfish (talk) 20:15, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)Do you really believe that Wikipedia may get affected by SOPA? If Wikipedia stays strict to copyright as it is now, it shouldn't really have any issues. My primary concerns are that several thousand sources may disappear and will as a result affect a lot of articles.—cyberpower (X-Mas Chat)(Contrib.) 21:18, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I am not trying to start yet another discussion here on whether or not people support/oppose any action. I am merely asking whether we can have a set location for such discussion. -MsBatfish (talk) 21:23, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I am not asking for one. There is no doubt that Wikipedia will take a blow when SOPA is in effect however, Wikipedia won't be shut down.—cyberpower (X-Mas Chat)(Contrib.) 21:30, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Praise for our mental health articles

For your information, User:Doc James has just pointed out this recent study. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 00:24, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

ArbCom Appointments 2011

Having determined that they met all the criteria for appointment, including having already identified to the Foundation, and in accordance with our longstanding traditions and their performance in the election campaign, I hereby appoint Courcelles, Risker, Kirill Lokshin, Roger Davies, Hersfold, SilkTork, and AGK to two-year terms beginning January 1st, 2012, and appoint JClemens to a one-year term beginning January 1st, 2012. In a break with past tradition, I am this year not reserving the right to move people from one-year to two-year seats. The same as last year, I will not make interim appointments to replenish ArbCom unless there is a majority vote of ArbCom that we replenish in some fashion by me calling a fresh election.

I would like to ask all incoming ArbCom members to review the history of the ArbCom, and in particular to familiarize yourself with some of the difficult problems that ArbCom has faced in the past, in the hopes of gaining some wisdom to avoid such issues in the coming year.

Your job is hard. No matter how well you perform your duties, some will say you have been too lenient. Some will say you have been too strict. And some will say that you've been inconsistent or arbitrary. Likewise, some will criticize you for moving too quickly, and others will criticize you for moving too slowly.

Strive to be none of those things, neither too lenient nor too strict, neither too quick nor too slow. And never inconsistent or arbitrary. But know that you will face those claims anyway. Face those claims with friendliness and dignity, and all will be fine in the end.

Finally, last year, I promised to make an announcement "soon" about the next steps in giving up some of my traditional powers, and that announcement is now. To ensure that transition takes place in an orderly fashion this year, I am announcing today that I am creating a Privy Council to advise me on these matters. The initial remit of the Privy Council will be to work with me to review the history of our governance processes and traditions so far, with a view toward us creating and publishing in March a comprehensive report on the current situation. After that, I will with the advice of the council write up an RfC specifically delegating various powers in whatever way seems most appropriate. This RfC will be subject to a broad community vote for ratification, hopefully in June.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:03, 22 December 2011 (UTC)