Talk:Zheng He

Year of Death?

Assuming he died on the last voyage, which ended in 1433, it is safe to assume he died in 1433, not 1435 as in the introduction. 69.86.204.233 (talk) 21:52, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

We need a reference that states 1433 is the year of Zheng's death. Editors cannot make their own inferences. I cannot find any reference that puts his death at 1433. Jojalozzo 02:30, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Dreyer (2006) discusses the year of Zheng He's death in his book - the following is a summary of Dreyer's analysis. There is no direct record of Zheng He's death. Zheng He disappears from the historical record after 1433. He probably died in 1433, during or shortly after his last voyage. Xu Yuhu argues that he died in 1435, using indirect evidence. Zheng He served as commandant of Nanjing and as eunuch Grand Director of Ceremonial. Both of these posts received new appointments in 1435. Xu Yuhu believes this is because these posts became vacant when Zheng He died. Dreyer argues that Zheng He was probably already dead by 1435, a more likely reason for the new appointments was that the new emperor, Zhu Qizhen, came to power in that year. Cowrider (talk) 03:17, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Introduction

Format

Who did the intro and first paragraph? It is not in standard form where the original name of the person should be presented as well as his original name in Chinese is presented. Something like "he also spoke Arabic and Chinese" is in the wrong place and absolutely does not belong in the intro. Angry bee (talk) 17:55, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Actually, per MOS-ZH, we shouldn't be including a mess of Chinese and Arabic into the first sentence if there is an infobox sidebar presenting the same information. One would assume that he spoke Chinese, but his fluency in Arabic is a valid point. — LlywelynII 13:59, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Religion

Islam and Southeast Asia

A pleasant surprise to see no big section on the fairy stories of Gavin Menzies, but the section 'Islam and Southeast Asia' has numerous baseless or sourceless assertions. I removed some, if they are restored to the article, please give a reason.Borgmcklorg (talk) 07:17, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

The main part under 'Malacca' is confused, although citing a very recent Chinese source, the introductory sentence contradicted this.Borgmcklorg (talk) 07:46, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Some people have been reverting it to the old version, which is designed to deliver a false concocted narrative (won't spell it out, it is easy to see) based mainly on a sequence of baseless and irrelevant points. I took a lot of care to fix what I could in that section while not cutting anything I wasn't sure of. The article still has many problems, but the changes have improved it. Anyone reverting the article to the previous form again without a response here to give the reasons is not acting in good faith.Borgmcklorg (talk) 10:44, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

There is also no direct connection between specifically Zheng He (as opposed to other treasure-fleet admirals) and the Peranakan. Also no direct or necessary connection between the real Peranakan and Islam.Borgmcklorg (talk) 11:09, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

People keep reverting it to a version that has easily demonstrable problems of fact and derivation, aside from the pseudo-narrative it was meant to create. With no attempt to argue any of it here, it is really bad faith Borgmcklorg (talk) 10:13, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Well unfortunately this article (like many other article touching religious subjects) is prone to POV edits by true believers. If there's content that's not properly sourced and/or added by editors unwilling to provide a justification, feel free to remove it.--Kmhkmh (talk) 11:23, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

The article is protected. If there are a few users (or ISPs) responsible for the majority of the vandalism (er... theoretically helpful but sadly undersourced points), surely we can do something about that. The SE Asia section is just awful. — LlywelynII 12:38, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

For those interested in improving this part of the article, some sources below. — LlywelynII 16:43, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Was Zheng He Muslim at all?

Yes, he's ethnically Hui, but that just means his ancestors were Muslim. Yes, there are traditions in SE Asia that lay claim to him, but they're not exactly unbiased reliable sources.

Thing is, the article right now states in the opening line and without a source that he is Muslim; states that his Hui family in Yunnan was Muslim (again without a source); and then goes on to record that our only certain sources on the guy are the numerous inscriptions and temples he paid for and erected to a Taoist water goddess... which, frankly, is a slightly un-Muslim thing to do, even in China. — LlywelynII 14:31, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Muslim troops invading Yunnan for the Ming

Someone asked about this earlier as well. It's back and still unsourced. I'll bring over some of the ones from Ming conquest of Yunnan. — LlywelynII 14:55, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Minor Point: Zheng He's 里 was not half a kilometer

There's an informal metric li in use in the PRC of 500m, just like the catty (斤, jin) became 500g, but the distance mentioned by Zheng He is the traditional li (see Li (unit)) which varied continuously but was something closer to 300m or 350m at the time.

Not that you should take figures like 10k or 100k in Chinese records as in any way exact in the first place, but the current conversions of even the wild estimates are off by a factor of 2. Since the li article doesn't mention a Ming-era distance, I'm just going to replace all conversions with links; if someone can fix that, restore the conversions but with real numbers. — LlywelynII 04:46, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Name

"Received the name Zheng He" for what?

Currently, the article includes the sentence

For his valor in this war, the eunuch received the name "Zheng He" from his master

with no clarification of its meaning or its relation to the war. 郑 has no meaning and therefore can't really be a military decoration, unless what is implied is that he pacified — i.e., brought "harmony" (和) — the area of the former State of Zheng. Is that what was meant? or was he adopted into the Zheng family for some reason? or was there essentially no meaning behind it other than finding something less plebeian than "San Bao"? — LlywelynII 06:43, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

According to Levathes, "Zheng" was in honor of the battle of Zhenglunba (near Beijing) where Zheng He (then, Ma He) participated: look here. -- Vmenkov (talk) 16:00, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Nifty. Thanks. — LlywelynII 06:49, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Was he a hajji?

Subsidiary point: Hajji Mahmud Shamsuddin is nowhere near common enough in English to deserve going in the lede with "Zheng He" and "Cheng Ho". (A) is this an Arabic form of his name known throughout the Middle East or an alternate form of his name in Arabic archives? (B) was he a hajji like his father and grandfather? When did he complete the pilgrimage? The article doesn't indicate he did. — LlywelynII 02:05, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Archive [4] (without an actual cite) says Chinese sources mention him as 哈只, "especially when conducting diplomacy with Muslims". Given that treaties from the trip don't seem to have been recorded, I'm unsure where that idea comes from, though. We need an actual source for it, even if he didn't complete the hajj and it is undeserved. — LlywelynII 12:29, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

This source, at least, pointedly says he was too busy and never made the hajj himself. — LlywelynII 19:20, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Sources for article expansion

• Obscure Events that Shaped the World for general events.
• For Zheng He's possible importance to the SE Asian Muslim community:
  • An article covering the non-Chinese folk stories related to Zheng He and the reasons for Chinese sources omitting them
  • Sizable ethnically-Chinese Muslim communities in SE Asia in contemporary sources
  • A Chinese article on Zheng He as seen by the Hui
  • A source recording Ma Huan's actual passage about the "Tang", including (a page up) a discussion of how factionalism within Quanzhou's Muslim community led to some of SE Asia's Chinese expats
• A survey of rationales that have been offered for the haijin — also claims "at least one Chinese scholar" has published work arguing Zheng He converted to Buddhism (Chinese Buddhists found excuses to honor Mazu; harder for Muslims), along with a good survey of the voyages (all in a book about the glass bead game)
• The Hsu Yun-ts'iao section of this book argues for a particular (& Buddhist) meaning for San Bao, with period source.

— LlywelynII 07:32, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Trade mission to Japan in 1404

In Archive [1], I found this:

The Chinese wikipedia states that he led 100,000 man to Japan at 1404, and signed the Kango trade treaty with Ashikaga Yoshimitsu. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skyfiler (talk • contribs) 18:38, 17 January 2006

There's a link to the Japanese wiki article on the treaty. Is anyone here's Chinese and/or Japanese and/or Google Translate parsing good enough to check on this and find if they have any reliable sources on that claim? It's worth including, if we can back it up. — LlywelynII 12:20, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I looked at the ref section in the article and it uses a book with ISBN 978-4-642-01449-6. A google search comes up with nothing, but someone else should check too. - M0rphzone (talk) 08:00, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Sorry I don't understand what ref your are talking about. Does it relate to the trade mission? What is it called? Jojalozzo 19:07, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Purpose of Expeditions?

We could use more sources regarding the bit of the History of Ming scholars consider to suggest that finding the Jianwen Emperor was a priority. Archive [1] has a long Chinese passage (sadly unsourced) where they suggest the principal mission early on was outflanking Tamerlane... finding their own Prester John, almost. — LlywelynII 12:20, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Edward L. Dreyer makes this point as well. You really ought to get his 2007 book (it is a popular biography, but more scholarly than Levathes') if you want to seriously work on expanding this article. -- Vmenkov (talk) 15:05, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Archives

It's always a mess once you get more than a few archives (who would ever bother to look through them?), so combined 1 & 2 and sorted the topics so easier to find earlier discussions.

Just looking at the dates or the # of sections, I could see an argument for combining 4 & 5 as well, but the arguments on America run pretty long. Then again, if everything is mostly on the same page, it's easier to search. — LlywelynII 13:59, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Eunuch

This section is very confused. It describes his capture, says he was castrated 4 years later by the "Ming authorities", then backs up and talks about his entering the service of a prince after his capture. Who had him castrated, and why? 71.59.43.26 (talk) 02:07, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Globalizing South China  By Carolyn Cartier

http://books.google.com/books?id=TRuqcutRvUAC&pg=PT48#v=onepage&q&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 03:57, 27 December 2012 (UTC)