Talk:Chelsea Manning

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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request is the initial move of the article to "Chelsea Manning" is reverted, returning the article to the original title, "Bradley Manning.

The panel of administrators convened to review and close this discussion has unanimously reached the following determinations regarding this requested move:

1. The title of the page prior to the events in dispute was "Bradley Manning"; this was a long-term, stable title, and the brief and limited discussion prior to the initial page move to "Chelsea Manning" does not constitute the formation of community consensus to move the page. Therefore, the default title of the page absent a consensus to move the page is "Bradley Manning".
2. The discussion following the move request provided a clear absence of consensus for the page to be moved from "Bradley Manning" to "Chelsea Manning".
3. WP:BLP is applicable to article titles and the desire to avoid harming the subject presents a reasonable basis for supporting "Chelsea Manning" as the title; however, BLP does not require having "Chelsea Manning" as the title. It is not a BLP violation to maintain the title at "Bradley Manning" so long as the prior use of this name by the subject is public knowledge and can be found in reliable sources. Furthermore, the application of BLP to avoid harming the subject is mitigated by the subject's own acknowledgment that "Bradley Manning" will continue to be used in various fora, and by the fact that the name, "Bradley Manning", will inevitably appear prominently in the article lede. Therefore, BLP is not a basis to move the article in the clear absence of a consensus in favor of titling the article, "Chelsea Manning".
4. MOS:IDENTITY is not expressly applicable to article titles, and is therefore not a basis to move the article in the clear absence of a consensus in favor of titling the article, "Chelsea Manning".. The panel acknowledges that MOS:IDENTITY is applicable to pronouns as used in the article, and that the reversion of this title in no way implies that the subject should be addressed in the article by masculine pronouns. Although some may perceive this as leading to incongruity between the subject's name and the pronouns used throughout the article, such incongruity appears in numerous articles about subjects whose common name appears to differ from their gender.
5. WP:COMMONNAME remains the basic principle by which article titles are chosen. This policy provides several factors which are weighed in the determination of a proper article title. In the requested move discussion, a number of editors noted that "Bradley Manning" was the name under which the subject became notable and performed the actions which led to her notability; and that readers interested in these actions would be likely to search for this subject under the name, "Bradley Manning". Competing examples were provided of some reliable sources changing their usage, while some retained their previous usage. The change that did occur was not sufficient to persuade the majority of editors, including some who indicated that their minds could be changed by sufficient evidence of changed usage. Although WP:COMMONAME provides that "more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change", it does not provide that no weight should be given to reliable sources published before the name change. The total mass of sources is weighted towards "Bradley Manning", and it is too soon to determine whether usage following the subject's announced name change represent an enduring trend, or a blip occasioned by reports in the news surrounding the name change itself.
6. A comparatively small number of editors premised their opinions solely on Manning's legal or biological state. These arguments are not based on anything in Wikipedia's policies, and are contrary to numerous precedents. Such arguments were expressly discounted in this determination.
7. A number of editors who supported reverting the title back to "Bradley Manning" also expressed the opinion that the common name of the subject is likely to change over a relatively short time span, this close is without prejudice to a new proposal to move the page to "Chelsea Manning" being initiated no less than thirty days^* from the date of this determination, at which point those advocating the move of this page will be able to present all evidence that may arise during that time demonstrating a change in the common name of this subject as used by reliable sources. In the interim, editors may propose moving the page to a compromise title such as "Private Manning" or "Bradley (Chelsea) Manning".

^* The sole point as to which the closing administrators were not unanimous was the length of time that should be required to pass before a new move request to "Chelsea Manning" is proposed; one member of the panel would have required ninety days.

This was by no means an easy process, and the closing administrators recognize that any conclusion to this discussion would engender further controversy; however, we are in agreement that this result is the only proper interpretation of the discussion conducted with respect to this dispute. bd2412 T 03:50, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

---

Note: After carefully considering the proposal made on my talk page, I have moved this discussion to: Talk:Chelsea Manning/August 2013 move request.

This move serves two purposes. First, it reduces the massive size of this talk page (the move discussion is well over 500,000 bytes). Second, it makes it very clear that the discussion has concluded, and further comments are to be made elsewhere. Cheers! bd2412 T 16:03, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Note the panel is (BD2412 (talk · contribs), BOZ (talk · contribs), Kww (talk · contribs)) NE Ent 13:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Adding a future date so this doesn't get auto-archived. 23:59, 30 September 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sportfan5000 (talk • contribs)

In the future you can use {{DNAU}} for that. NE Ent 13:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

The use of Chelsea and the word she when referencing to Bradley Manning

Should the article not use the legal first name Bradley instead of Chelsea, even if he wishes to be called Chelsea. Since he has not had a legal name change wouldn't it be more in line with BLP?? TucsonDavidU.S.A. 15:00, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

No. This has already been discussed endlessly. Do we use the legal name for Cat Stevens, Snoop Dogg and a whole load of other ppl? No, we use the name they are known by. And any BLP vio is in not using Chelsea not in not using Bradley. ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 15:53, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Please remember that consensus can change, so the question of which name to use can be reopened by anyone at any time. Further, WP:DEADHORSE is an essay (the views of some unspecified number of editors), and does not necessarily reflect consensus. I do not think WP:DEADHORSE is a valid rationale for closing a discussion. CaseyPenk (talk) 20:32, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Maybe but all the same neither BLP nor wikipedia demand that we use legal names so its a valid close IMO. Of course you could try to change the naming policy and demand we use legal names for ALL living people though it would be problematic for articles like Mikhail Gorbachev whose legal name will be unreadable to readers used to a western script. ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 21:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Funny how you invoke "consensus can change" when the consensus is to use Chelsea Manning in the lede, but God forbid anyone try to reopen the move discussion for a month. The only reason the 3-admin panel's request has any force is... yes, that's right, consensus. Can't that consensus change, too? Or are you saying that some consensuses are allowed to change but others aren't? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:00, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Its not a requirement to use legal names, but it is a requirement to use the name that the individual goes by on a daily basis and is called by everyone around him/her.--JOJ ^Hutton 23:04, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

That is clearly not so, Jojhutton, eg Cat Stevens is known as Yusuf Islam on a daily basis and used by those in his daily life but we still call him Cat Stevens♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 23:28, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Cat Stevens is known by his stage name, not his legal name. You compare apples and oranges here.TMCk (talk) 23:32, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

That's not right. He hasn't used Cat Stevens in 30 years or something. I don't really know why we think it makes sense to use that title, but it isn't because it's the name he is called by. Formerip (talk) 00:40, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

"...it is a requirement to use the name that the individual goes by on a daily basis and is called by everyone around him/her." So are you claiming that prison guards get to decide the name of their prisoners? That makes zero sense and has zero grounding in Wikipedia policy or precedent. Her friends and family, so far as we know, now call her Chelsea and she uses Chelsea on a daily basis, so far as we know. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:37, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

A prison guard doesn't decide. They're obligated to use the prisoners legal name (or at least their nick).TMCk (talk) 23:43, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

And thus we go around in a circle, because there is no requirement that Wikipedia use legal names. Claiming that Wikipedia should be required to use the name that prison guards are obligated to use because it is her legal name is nonsensical circular logic. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:46, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

I didn't say that at all. I simply responded to your comment and gave a clarifying response. Don't put words in my writing that are not there.TMCk (talk) 23:54, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

I didn't say that you said it - I am pointing out that it is one of the logical problems with the originally-quoted assertion, if what you say is true. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:59, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm sure the article will end up being titled Chelsea. My problem is with the re-writing of past events before the name change. Why isn't there more acknowledgment of the NLGJA policy? A spokesperson for the group said it would recommend “he” for historical reference: “When writing about events prior to when the person began living publicly as the opposite gender, NLGJA recommends using the name and gender the individual used publicly at that time. For example: Chelsea Manning, formerly known as Bradley, came out as transgender last week. In a statement, Manning said she had felt this way since childhood. Manning grew up in Oklahoma. In middle school, he was very outspoken in class about government issues and religious beliefs, friends said.”

The full article is here. We need to respect history. The "she" pronoun should not be applied retrospectively. - Gothicfilm (talk) 23:49, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

I fully agree with and endorse Gothicfilm's view.TMCk (talk) 23:59, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Inconsistency of pronouns will just confuse our readers, let us remember we are building an encyclopedia before anything else♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 00:05, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

(EC) The opposite can be or is quite more confusing. I know it is a challenge but as long as the intro gives readers the basics of his personal feelings of being in a wrong body, that confusion is gone. That's the basic problem and case here: "He" has a male body all his live, was treated as such and just recently made it public that he felt like a woman early on in his live. A self proclaimed name change doesn't change the past, just more than likely the near future.TMCk (talk) 00:30, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

When building an encyclopedia we should respect history before anything else. - Gothicfilm (talk) 00:20, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

If you want to make this a policy for all transgender ppl you need to address policies and guidelines, this isnt the place to do that. In the meantime we should follow policies and guidelines and use she throughout this article♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 00:27, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

There is disagreement about which policies apply and how, thus this is a legit topic for this talkpage.TMCk (talk) 00:32, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

The pronoun guideline is unambiguous, so there's no disagreement on whether and how it applies. If you don't agree with that guideline, there's no point in objecting on individual article talk pages. Go to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style instead. – Smyth\^talk 17:19, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Is it, really?. Noticed the tag?TMCk (talk) 21:22, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Would that be the tag that states: Until the dispute is resolved by consensus, it is recommended that the guideline remain in effect.? Said dispute would be at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style, as Smyth indicated, would it not? Dolescum (talk) 23:02, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

If there is a dispute over there about mentioned guideline, should we just ignore it and play along like nothing is happening? And should we take that guideline as granted and as the only one that applies here? That's the point I was making and you're responding to.TMCk (talk) 23:53, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

To do anything else is to preempt the result of the dispute, is it not? No-one knows what consensus will emerge as a result, so business as usual and patience in the meantime, no? Dolescum (talk) 00:05, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Patience is exactly what I see a lack of in regards to the article. And again, and I pointed this out before in this thread, there is more than just this one guideline to think about. But apparently other guidelines and even policies are of no interest for some? We should look at all of them and also apply common sense which I don't see happening here. As I see it, there is more harm done in the name of "protection" than any good.TMCk (talk) 00:34, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
And BTW, you clearly avoided a direct response to my post.TMCk (talk) 00:36, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

It's also worth pointing out that of the 3+ discussions on WT:MOS about MOS:IDENTITY, the one(s) which pertain(s) to the paragraph on pronouns (rather than to the preceding paragraph) show little support for changing the paragraph, and much support for keeping it as it is. Hence I echo Smyth's comment of 17:19, 8 September 2013: the guideline is unambiguous and unambiguously applies, will continue to apply while it is being discussed, and seems unlikely to change. -sche (talk) 00:36, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

sche is correct. The current tag refers to an unrelated dispute. The pronoun guideline was already thoroughly discussed 2 weeks ago and resulted in a small majority to keep the current wording. – Smyth\^talk 10:38, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

The issue of retrospective pronoun use was not settled there. "While there is no consensus to change the current wording, there may be room, as has been commented, for a separate discussion on how to deal with writing about gender specific past moments." - from the closing comment NO CONSENSUS TO ALTER MOS GUIDELINE. - Gothicfilm (talk) 18:15, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

• I just opened up a discussion to address this topic specifically. Please discuss the question of retroactive pronouns at the section specifically dedicated to that topic: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#RfC on pronouns throughout life. CaseyPenk (talk) 18:51, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

As a manner of law, Bradley manning is neither Chelsea Elizabeth Manning, nor female. As such, HE should be referred to by his legal name and gender when reporting on him in an objective fashion. One should note that he desires to be known as Chelsea Elizabeth Manning. I understand people's desire to support LGBT rights and be politically correct; however, this is supposed to be an encyclopedia of facts. Political correctness can and should be considered, but given that an encyclopedia's only purpose is an objective reporting of facts, political correctness must take a back seat to objectivity. In this instance, the facts are that his legal name is Bradley Edward Manning, and in every way possible, he is a male human. If you want to write a subjective piece on Pvt. Manning, feel free to refer to Manning as Chelsea or her. But until the facts of Mr. mannings name and gender change, you compromise the integrity of this website and institution. I get that Wikimedia runs solely on donations and the vast majority of us are unpaid volunteers, however, are you willing to sacrifice the integrity of this institution in order garner a modicum of politic correctness and the support of a small group of people who would have you rewrite reality because the facts of the matter make them upset or uncomfortable? Furthermore, there is a reason why you can't simply just say your name and gender is now something else at a whim. If you could, people could simply arbitrarily and capriciously change their information and databases and websites like this would be stuck changing the information at the whims of the people or subjects being profiled. (As for the before and after issue, people are referred to by their name and pronoun in use at the time of the event and as their current legal name when speaking about them in general.). Samleizerman (talk) 07:06, 12 September 2013 (UTC) Samuel L. 12 September 2013 0805hrs (UTC) 0305hrs (EST)

Surely my learned friend would be happy to back up his assertions concerning matters of law with specific reference to those laws, or at least with secondary sources discussing such laws. —Psychonaut (talk) 07:44, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 9 September 2013

 Done - I see the change has been made. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:48, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Simple change to the article Infobox: Instead of "{{Infobox" -> "{{Infobox person" Tiago Etiene Queiroz (talk) 01:46, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

I believe it was done his way to avoid yet another name field, that would appear at the top if this were "infobox person", to bicker over. It looks fine the way it is. Tarc (talk) 02:07, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

moved to person and added military sub-box. I think it's a lot more maintainable this way. Let the bickering begin (again). --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:43, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

I can't see any reason to change the infobox (to two infoboxes, in fact), and there's no need to keep on repeating the old name. Also, the increase in image size was too much. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 03:05, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

The advantage is, you don't have the clunky "data1/label1" fields. The military info box means it is formatted like other soldiers' information. Finally, the image size was increased to reduce wrapping, I think it actually looked fine on my screen, I've seen even wider info boxes. It's not "keep on repeating the old name", an infobox regularly sums up important information about the subject. Why don't you share why exactly you think this should be the only infobox in wikipedia without a header option? --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 03:38, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Obiwan, please don't start the serial reverting. You made a change and there is an objection to it. The image size is completely absurd looking. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 03:10, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree, lets wait on the dust to settle more. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:12, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

So why don't we just agree on what needs to lead the infobox. It's not that hard. The birth_name is also not up for debate - why delete that? --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 03:14, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

the birth name is fine being placed back in, as for the infobox name what do you suggest? We could do "Private Manning" or just "Manning", I feel we should avoid having the name Bradley or Chelsea in for now at least. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:18, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

The names are in the first sentence. Adding them again in close proximity looks gratuitous given that it's a sensitive issue. The infobox doesn't need a name. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 03:29, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't think its gratuitous, and why avoid Bradley/Chelsea when we already have it in the title and the lede? it doesn't make sense? I think the compromise (Chelsea Manning (previously Bradley)) will help introduce the info box, and describe rapidly to the user that there was a name change. Birth_name is standard to place when the person in question has had a name change for whatever reason (esp if they are notable from their old name, which is the case here) --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 03:34, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Im in favor of the birth name as that is pretty much straightforward but remain convinced we should wait on the infobox name header. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:38, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Request for comment on pronouns throughout life

Hello everyone - you are all invited to participate in a request for comment on whether or not to use the current preferred pronouns of a transgender person throughout that person's life. Please note that the request for comment applies to all articles about transgender people (not just this one), so please keep that in mind. Thank you. CaseyPenk (talk) 21:47, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Input requested

There is a guideline here on a sub-sub page that may not have many watchers, so I'm posting this notice here to get comments from interested parties. The goal is to develop a set of "ground rules" for the inevitable move discussion, with the hope that we can avoid comments hurtful to trans* people, and at the same time avoid overly-broad accusations of transphobia, hate speech, sexual harassment, etc. An initial attempt at these guidelines is in the link, but I encourage you to edit and comment on the guidelines so that they represent a broader consensus. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 03:42, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

I see. So in addition to blocking the move discussion from happening when it does happen it's going to be haeavily policed for tone arguments including, I suppose, the argument that deliberatly mislabeling a trans person is transphobic or bigotted? Maybe we should just all give up on this article and redirect to the relevant Conservapedia article. Artw (talk) 15:52, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Blanket accusations of transphobia (e.g. labelling all supporters of the Bradley move as having transphobic rationales) is purely and simply unacceptable. I for one will not tolerate such comments. CaseyPenk (talk) 16:14, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately this discussion and several discussions it has spawned, such as the attempt to write transgender out of the MOS, have revealed a heavy institutional leaning towards transphobia, which remains a form of bigotry even if carried out in the form of passive aggression and WP:ALLCAPS wrangling. This defensive reation at even having that pointed out is part of that, and may be a sign that Wikipedia is too far gone for it to be addressed.Artw (talk) 16:22, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Artw, perhaps you did not see it, but I have proposed changes that would write transgender-sensitive provisions into WP:COMMONNAME. If you find such actions transphobic, we're clearly editing different encyclopedias. CaseyPenk (talk) 21:24, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Artw, as someone who's on your "side" in this thing, I honestly think the guide-to-commenting makes a sensible suggestion. I appreciate your concern -- during the ANI thread there were two moves to introduce a blanket sanction against anyone saying "transphobia," but this genuinely isn't that. It isn't saying "shut up and put up with transphobic remarks," but rather asking editors to (a) give the benefit of the doubt when discriminating between ignorance and malice, and (b) to take the matter up on the offender's talk page before deploying nuclear language in the main discussion. The same guidelines also outline, at considerable length, unacceptable things to say to or about trans people. TLDR: I like Obi's guide and I don't think it has earned this fierce a rebuttal. Chris Smowton (talk) 23:48, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

This guidance should be completely ignored. Editors should be free to make comments within the general rules of Wikipedia without worrying about some special policy that some editors have made up to police the discussion. Count Truthstein (talk) 16:05, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

hi Count. Per IAR you should feel free to ignore any guidance, policy, rule, or consensus if you honestly think it improves the encyclopedia. The guidance is simply that - suggestions for conduct - and is not binding as an arbcom sanction might be. I hope nonetheless editors will comply, and if they don't I think arbcom will be watching - discretionary sanctions have already been applied so if you say something an admin decides is out of line, then I guess you'll have to accept the consequences. In the last discussion there were accusations of virulent transphobia and trans hatred and sexual harassment and libel, as well as accusations of trans-activism and soapboxing the promotion of POV and political correctness run amok. I think we'd all be better served by not going through that again, and just talking about the best title for our readers.-Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 00:24, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Authorized awards

Photo on courthouse uniform shows no service star. http://www.hdwallpapersinn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/bradley_manning1.jpg

Head and shoulders shot has Manning wearing the device. Why the discrepancy and is there any sources? --DHeyward (talk) 22:00, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Where is the original source of your/the upload? Self uploads are sure not reliable for such purpose at all.TMCk (talk) 22:46, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
Send me a pic of yours and I'll make you whatever you wanna be... or not.TMCk (talk) 23:08, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

I didn't upload anything. Most of the media shots (one of which I linked to, all are about the same) does not have the bronze service campaign device. The official Army photo in the article shows the bronze service campaign device on the Iraq Campaign medal. The army doesn't authorize wearing the device without at least one bronze campaign star on the ribbon. I want to know why it is missing from most of his press photos while in custody. --DHeyward (talk) 00:20, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

This is not a forum for general talk about the subject nor plain wp:OR. Unless you provide the original sources that for the least show that uploaded pic is authentic and maybe comment on your question, this thread is about to become a wp:BLP violation and will be shut down/removed. So again, please provide those original sources you're talking about.TMCk (talk) 01:08, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

The reason the ribbons flip-flop here and there is because by many accounts Manning was not an...attention-to-detail soldier. This has nothing to do with the gender issue, so no hackle-raising, please...this is just a general lack of attentiveness. In the hdwallpapersinn.com link above, Manning isn't even wearing them in the right order. They're also spaced 1/8" apart, which is technically allowed but it's just something that isn't done. An ICM without a device just plain doesn't exist, you're awarded them depending on how many phases of the Iraq war you were there for, so any picture where it is missing is just...oy vey. Tarc (talk) 01:30, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

TMCk: no need to be so aggressive. It was a perfectly reasonable question. Of course he needs to provide proper sources, but there's no call to be going on about "violations" and "shut downs". – Smyth\^talk 10:30, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm guessing that pic is modified, it is correct on all the other pics from the same site (where the ribbons are visible). --Space simian (talk) 10:23, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

All of the photos were taken during custody, as Manning is being transported to trial hearings. The uniform is supplied by the guards immediately before transport and the guards will have added the ribbons. (The various ribbons & badges have little sharp pins, which can be used as deadly weapons in the hands of an experienced ninja, so the guards did not let Manning handle the ribbons.) Did the guards do a good job in setting up "the rack"? Alas, no. The official photo supplied by Coombs' office is the best source to determine the authorized ribbons as such official photos are set up and taken in circumstances where close attention can be given to detail. – S. Rich (talk) 15:17, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

alexaobrien.com as source

am confused by why alexa o'brien's web page not considered reliable source. for long time, was only source for transcript of case--for two year, if memory right. as well, she receive grant from Freedom of the Press Foundation for work regard Manning's trial, and work host on personal web site shortlisted on reporting award Martha Gellhorn Prize for Journalism. because of background as information architect, has also been able for provide database of original document for trial--transcript, evidence, briefs, so on. is consider journalist by huffington post, who write article on efforts in crafting public docket http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/16/alexa-obrien-bradley-manning_n_3086628.html and has write for guardian on case http://www.theguardian.com/profile/alexa-o-brien . is given respect by journalist "community" (ephemeral idea as may be) as member of ranks. for case with specific as underreported as in Manning case, emergent source as in case of alexa o'brien may rise and is right to give due respect in all fora. Lakdfhia (talk) 18:38, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Notes: alexaobrien does not show up on the WP:RSN. But, from other websites, it looks like she is a Wikileaks editor. – S. Rich (talk) 18:43, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Given that she was given a journalism award, I think this could be easily considered a RS: http://www.alexaobrien.com/secondsight/about.html; indeed, many journalists and members of the public relied upon her site. Who claimed it was not a RS? OTOH, use of trial transcripts is basically a primary source, so should be done with care. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:34, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Query: Was she given or nominated for a journalism award for her blog – or other work? In any event, alexaobrien.com comes under WP:SPS and WP:SPSBLP. We cannot use it for Manning articles. – S. Rich (talk) 20:11, 13 September 2013 (UTC) (Revise remark. See Martha Gellhorn Prize for Journalism & its website.20:29, 13 September 2013 (UTC))

please read this: "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications" - this clearly qualifies as such. So, yes, we can use it for the Manning article.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:30, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I considered that. In this case her relevant field is Journalism. That does not give license to use in any subject. And because Manning is a living person, WP:SPSBLP applies. We need her work from sources that are subject to editorial control, and a personal blog or website does not qualify in this regard. – S. Rich (talk) 20:36, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Her journalism was the coverage of the trial??? The shortlisting for the award was for her coverage of the trial. [1]. Therefore, I strongly believe her coverage of the trial qualifies, even per WP:SPSBLP. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:48, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

As BIJ was on the shortlist, that website may be acceptable RS. (A separate analysis of it would be required if anyone objected. IMO, it qualifies as RS.) But since alexaobrien.com is not BIJ, we cannot use it. (We went through a similar analysis in the article a few edits ago. Alexa.com was cited, and then removed. Then the Alexa.com cite was replaced by something from commondreams.org. While commondreams is not a personal blog, it got removed because of its opinion stance. (The validity of that revert is another issue.) All-in-all, commondreams.org and BIJ might work as non-SPS webpages, but alexa.com does not. – S. Rich (talk) 21:12, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Your argument makes no sense and you are taking too fine a reading of SPSBLP. The claim in question in any case is NOT about Manning, the claim is about the charges and whether those charges had precedent or not. But again, you need to ease up on the wikilawyering; remember, this journalist has been published, and her journalism of the Manning case specifically was shortlisted for an award for investigative journalism, and she is probably one of the top 5 experts in the world on what happened with Manning's case. The fact that you are pedantically calling for removal of this because you're comparing it to Joe Blow's personal blog is silly. It's not. Read the claim, and judge for yourself whether the source can validly make that claim, and stop reading so much into policy - WP:SPS is clear enough.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:34, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

I've removed the drive-by tagging. You have no idea how much experience O'Brien has in military law, but I'm guessing a lot more than you, and we don't need an opinion tag when the statement is prefaced by the person who stated it. Secondly, there are oodles of sources and documented transcripts that have the "made up charge" claim. Do you doubt, nonetheless, that the lawyer DIDN'T say that? SPS doesn't apply here, please read what SPS says.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:57, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

This was hardly a drive-by tagging! 1. Alexa had been added Boldly, then Reverted, and the Discussion was ongoing. (WP:BRD does not mean BRDR.) There was not grounds to add her back as the discussion was underway. 2. Frankly, I doubt that she has any experience in military law, but we do not know based on her website. 3. If there are oodles of sources, then those sources should be added as RS (and thereby drop Alexa). But as alexaobrien.com is SPS the greatest care must be used when she is commenting on something or about someone in areas outside of her area of expertise. 4. The tags serve to alert other interested editors to join the discussion. Removing them serves no purpose other than to assert that the editing question is settled – in the opinion of one editor. 5. If we can't get consensus on this talk page I shall be happy to open a WP:RSN or WP:NPOVN thread. – S. Rich (talk) 01:32, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

when talk about transcript provided by alexa, is important to note that official transcript not only unavailable, but government argue are unnecessary because O'Brien "took such excellent notes" -- see huffington post article above. tag in article calls into question validity of transcript, a thing no one in either press or government wont to do. Lakdfhia (talk) 03:38, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

I have tagged the alexaobrien.com link as WP:PRIMARY. Whoever is producing the transcript is a witness to the hearing. Not a bad thing in itself, as Primary sources may be used with care. But the witness admits that people are talking quickly and portions of the transcript miss what is being said. Thus this transcript suffers from reliability problems. In any event, Manning either pled guilty to the particular charge or was found guilty. So adding the opinions of O'Brien & Goodman is not proper in what should be a straight-forward description of the court-martial process. – S. Rich (talk) 11:12, 14 September 2013 (UTC)16:55, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

is found guilty, yes. is notable charge in form, lack of citation for legal base, and in implications, so include mention of in description of charges. is simple and straightforward, only few lines of text still. am not list specific UCMJ and USC violations on charge sheet. still, simply stating charge not illustrate well enough, would only confuse, so draw on source for comment on importance. as for claim in article regard judge lind being expert, coombs is expert too and he say is made-up charge. that basis of charge is source of contention is evidence enough that is notable for mention in brief summary of charges. Lakdfhia (talk) 12:41, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Decision to revert the move to Chelsea Manning is a disgrace

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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As a trans woman, I am having to reconsider whether I want to have any involvement with future editing of Wikipedia. --Daira Hopwood ⚥ (talk) 18:49, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Here's my suggestion for an improvement to the article: change the title back to Chelsea Manning, as MOS:IDENTITY requires. Clear enough? --Daira Hopwood ⚥ (talk) 22:24, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

When the next Rename Discussion takes place in ~2 weeks, you have a chance to weigh in then. Tarc (talk) 22:28, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Where does it say that no discussion should happen before the move request begins? Some can state that all discussion is "frozen" but others disagree. It might be a good idea to address actual policy when editors try to participate and are told to withhold commentary for two weeks. __Elaqueate (talk) 11:38, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

And it should be said that I'm sure editors did not mean to give the impression they were hounding a trans editor away from a discussion of a trans subject. __Elaqueate (talk) 11:41, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

This person's "suggestion for improvement" was a name change, to which I responded that we will be holding another rename discussion in a few weeks, that's all. If you're reading something more insidious into that statement, that's really not something I can do anything about. Tarc (talk) 12:22, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

I didn't speak to your comment specifically. But when there are attempts at discussion by previously uninvolved parties, and people are working to create a welcoming atmosphere for other editors, it might be good if we don't immediately hat their multiple contributions and make it seem like the only way to talk about the move is to wait two weeks. Especially if similar comments had been allowed to be discussed more obviously respectfully. Your comment was not undue, but the net effect of the interventions could be interpreted as unwelcoming. __Elaqueate (talk) 12:45, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

What is more to discuss here? We have had this song and dance many times now, the move discussion is the place to place these comments not here, complaining about the title here is not helping as nothing is going to be done about it on the talkpage here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:35, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Maybe we can agree to deal with people who have seen the move back for the first time in a more welcoming and helpful way. This editor wasn't given useful guidance on where to register or discuss their views now, and was, on balance, told to come back in two weeks and closed with each comment. I would take it in good faith that they were trying to help, even if you have prejudged their contributions to be unhelpful. A situation to avoid is if people later find there is discussion about the move happening now, as it could give an impression that Daira Hopwood ⚥'s desire to give opinions were being actively thwarted, even if that wasn't your active intent. We should think of how to respond the next time it happens. __Elaqueate (talk) 15:03, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

I think the section name given by Daira is indicative of someone venting rather than discussing. The section below this one seems more collegial about joining the discussion. Kudos to that section starter.Two kinds of pork (talk) 15:23, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I have a further proposal that I think addresses the more general issue: Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (people)#Conflict_with_MOS:IDENTITY.2C_and_proposed_change --Daira Hopwood ⚥ (talk) 01:59, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Article Name Discussion Is Where?

I've just heard about this article being reverted back to "Bradley," though the individual obviously identifies as "Chelsea." I came here to join the discussion, but it appears to be closed or taking place somewhere else. Could anyone offer a clear update on this matter, and a direction on where properly to log my support for moving the article back to "Chelsea"? Thank you. Startswithj (talk) 22:14, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Apparently Talk:Bradley_Manning/October_2013_move_request. Thanks for helping. --Daira Hopwood ⚥ (talk) 22:32, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply…but at the top of that page is printed: "Please do not yet use this page to debate the move per se," and at the bottom: "The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion."

It also says: "Keep closed until such time as the move request is filed; current proposed start date is 03:50 (UTC) Sep 30, 2013 per consensus of admins who closed the first move request. Some have stated disagreement with the 30-day waiting period, which has no official status." Who are these admins, what makes them admins, and how are they contacted?

Best regards, Startswithj (talk) 23:27, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

There appears to be a related discussion at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chelsea_Manning_gender_identity_media_coverage#Merge_with_Chelsea_Manning_article/ and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chelsea_Manning_gender_identity_media_coverage#Requested_move_31_August_2013/. Startswithj (talk) 23:36, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

They are BD2412 (talk · contribs), BOZ (talk · contribs), and Kww (talk · contribs), they are admins because they were promoted by community consensus at the WP:RFA gauntlet, and they are contacted via the links I just posted. Please do not go harass them. --erachima talk 23:50, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, User:erachima for your quick, concise, and linked answer. Please rest assured (assume good faith) that I'm here to contribute not harass. There's a huge amount of text to read on these discussion pages; it's not been easy catching up on what I naïvely assumed would have been a given.

For the benefit of others, I've found (in addition to the discussions linked directly above) current discussions of this topic at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bradley_Manning/October_2013_move_request/Comments_unrelated_to_evidence/ and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#RfC_on_pronouns_throughout_life/.

Suggestion: Is there a hatnote or tag we could add to the top of this article making it clear that its title is in contention, with a link to the discussion and the grounds for that discussion's current stasis? Startswithj (talk) 04:39, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Forgive a newbie, I've found and added the apparently appropriate hatnote. I left its link as the default value (simply to this Talk page). Startswithj (talk) 04:56, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

I have reverted the hatnote. Basically, you missed the discussion. The discussion you should be reading is Talk:Bradley Manning/August 2013 move request. StAnselm (talk) 04:59, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Why remove the hatnote, the article title is in dispute, no? My understanding is that the freezing of discussion for 30 days hasn't changed this fact…and adding this or a similar hatnote would be informative and time-saving to those new to this matter. Startswithj (talk) 05:14, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

It was in dispute, and there was a discussion, which has been closed. There's no dispute at the moment; in a couple of weeks there will (I expect) be a dispute again. StAnselm (talk) 05:30, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

I'd say it is still very much in dispute, if the vociferous rants of a few rabble rousers are any indication. Two kinds of pork (talk) 05:33, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

is not move thing at top of talk page sign is still dispute? if move to new page, title have to change. dispute is obvious ongoing--information gathering is part of informed debate. is not sensible for say is not dispute when this page itself say otherwise. Lakdfhia (talk) 05:36, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Is this one current or useful: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manning naming dispute/Workshop.....? __Elaqueate (talk) 13:36, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

It's in dispute as in people are disputing it. It is not in dispute as in various editors are admins are sitting on all efforts to discuss the dispute and move the situation forwards. Artw (talk) 18:20, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

"Title in Dispute" Hatnote

This question arises as a tangent out of the topic immediately above (please review latter half of #Article Name Discussion Is Where?. I came hear to join the discussion of the Manning re-/un-re-name, after reading about this WP discussion in the news. I saw the (related but not the same issue) current merge hatnote (regarding Chelsea Manning gender identity media coverage) first and went there. I've also found this Talk page obscure in its direction as to where to contribute. Propose adding Template:Disputed hatnote to this article to help future readers know the article's current state and direct them to proper discussions. My understanding (admittedly, I came here late) is that the article title is in dispute; the discussion was put on hold due to lack of consensus and civility. Thank you, Startswithj (talk) 15:48, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea - David Gerard (talk) 15:53, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't think it's needed. There isn't an active discussion as to which new creative title should be had, which is the intent of that template - there are two options on the table, all other compromises have been rejected, and there is broad consensus to wait until sep 30 to do the actual move discussion. This is not a forum and if we don't hat these sections that crop up they will simply degenerate into more time wasting bemoaning. this is outlined clearly in the FAQ at the top of this page, so if someone was confused about the move I'm sorry but plz read the FAQ first next time, and if the FAQ if confusing please help fix it. The discussion wasn't put on hold for lack of consensus, it was decided to wait 30 days for sources to shift. There was no consensus to move to a new title, which is what you need in these cases, so the default/original title remains..--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:16, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Actually, you've changed my mind: sounds like a bad idea and will look like a public call for voting - David Gerard (talk) 17:44, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

there used to be another template which was used to indicate an active RM discussion on the article page. However, overly zealous eds deleted that one, which I still don't understand - why shouldn't readers be informed the title is currently under discussion - esp if its a big dispute...--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:35, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

I think there needs to be a discussion to bring that template back, I was also wondering what had happened to it. Definitely was a helpful note, if we still had that Deadmaus probably would not have happened in the first place. STATic message me! 22:32, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps one of these notes to link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bradley_Manning/October_2013_move_request/Comments_unrelated_to_evidence#Notes for people who want contribute, with note that it is to help ensure discussion is framed in constructive way when it occur in few weeks time? link appears on above already, but is buried and hard to find. is good for helping with prepare for debate, people can make good contribution, and extra attention for how framing argument constructively can happen is only good. am not clear on intricacies of situation here, so am sorry if this doesn't make sense. only appear at quick glance to be okay compromise: effort made to not engender what some view as unnecessary discuss while raising awareness that conversation is only postpone, not cancel. Lakdfhia (talk) 18:53, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Clearly the proper thing to do is {{wrongtitle}} whichever title the page is currently at to the other name. --erachima talk 18:57, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Following WP:COMMONNAME is not a technical restriction though, so that would definitely not be the proper thing to do, I am sure an addition of that template would swiftly be reverted. STATic message me! 22:32, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

But it's The Wrong Title! --erachima talk 22:43, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Did not immediately catch the sarcasm, thought you were another editor complaining about the title. In context that was quite funny, nice link too. STATic message me! 22:51, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

I still think it better to be upfront about the current situation, inform interested parties of the process, and direct them to current discussions as possible. User:Obiwankenobi, were you referring to one of these templates: Wikipedia:Template messages/Moving, perhaps { { Old move } }? Startswithj (talk) 04:10, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't remember it - it was deleted. I think it used to be on the Ivory Coast page so check history in ~July 2012 around time of last move, I think you may find it. I'd be happy to have it back - we tell readers if an article will be deleted, so we should have the option to tell them It is proposed to be renamed too. Note: those templates you pointed to are talk page templates I think. I'm talking about having an article-space template.Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:17, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

User:Obiwankenobi, I found at Ivory Coast 2012-07-09T23:38:36this tag: Template:Mrv, which looks like { {mrv|date=2013 September 15} } in code, and when posted reads "This page is currently the subject of a move closure review. Those interested may participate in the discussion. While the discussion is in progress, this page may be edited, but do not blank or redirect this page, or remove this notice from the page." Startswithj (talk) 20:42, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Does anyone have any thoughts for or against the MRV tag? Startswithj (talk) 15:29, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

I looked at the text of the template and it doesn't seem to be appropriate since AFAIK there is no formal review in progress. See the first sentence of the template, " This page is currently the subject of a move closure review " and read what is at the wikilink. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:40, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

The template in question was this one: Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2012_September_11#Template:Movenotice; I'd suggest reading all of the linked discussions. Consensus at the time was that the movenotice templates did not help and caused more confusion. If we address the issues brought up I assume these templates could be recreated. MRV tag is for move review, which is not the case here. I don't think there are any mainspace tags we can put right now.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 05:02, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

That general-purpose hatnote looks like it would have been useful for this case. It appears it was deleted with no suggested replacements? Again, I think it's important to be upfront to casual readers that this article title is in dispute. Would the Template:POV-title solve that? Thank you, Startswithj (talk) 16:02, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

I just realized that I originally linked to the wrong template. I meant to suggest in the first place Template:Disputed title. Sincere apologies. Startswithj (talk) 06:02, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't think it's a good idea. Frankly I think all arguments for and against the move have been mooted, and there isn't any point discussing it, as anything said will not be part of the formal move discussion. This is not the sort of thing a few eds will sort out - there are really only two options on the table. If you want to add that tag once the actual move discussion starts, that would be ok, but we don't need people coming here and saying 'can you move this to Chelsea please' - it's better for them to read th FAQ and wait for the formal move then participate, or join in the move prep and help find sources.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 06:09, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Category:Transgender and transsexual women

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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So how precisely does this violate WP:COP? - David Gerard (talk) 22:26, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

We already have a category Transgender and transsexual military personnel that replaced Women in the United States Army, is there a more neutral category we can use for this one that does not have the wording of woman in it? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:33, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Your apparent desire to exclude the word "woman" from this article is supported neither by policy nor by reliable sources. It is indisputable that she has identified as a transgender woman. Therefore, she belongs in that category. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:36, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

• Not seeing a COP violation, but I do question the apparent current protocol of doubling up on trans- by occupation and trans- by current gender categories. --erachima talk 22:41, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

• • I may have linked to the wrong thing, I do know though that categories should be neutral and not overlap each other. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:26, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
    • What, pray tell, is "non-neutral" about categorizing Chelsea Manning as a transgender woman? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:34, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

categories sometimes are overlapping but not identical. In this case, there's no issue with trans women, we have many in that cat. Read the article if you want to understand the diff between trans men and trans women. Manning has been identified by many sources as a trans woman so its quite neutral.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:00, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Leave the category in then. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:11, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This was closed way to quickly, and the closer was involved. I disagree with that template and believe it violated BLP and V both and suggest that it be removed  KoshVorlon. We are all Kosh ...  16:37, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Do you mean the category? The person who started this discussion agreed to keep the category, and previous consensus in at least two other discussions was to keep this category. Yes I was involved but sometimes in the interest of expediency I have been known to close a conversation I was involved in. Are you debating whether Manning is a transgender woman, or is your problem with the category itself? If its the former, there are plenty of reliable sources to back up that claim; for the latter I'd suggest you nominate the category at CFD.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:11, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to hear from people who considered stopping editing due to the controversy here

In the discussions about what to name this article, a number of editors said they'd been considering leaving Wikipedia because they felt angry or horrified by comments that were made here. If you are one of those editors, I'd like to invite you, if you want, to talk about it on my talk page. Thanks Sue Gardner (talk) 06:02, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Whatever you do with these responses you receive, please be aware that these are anecdotal reports, thus have zero stattistical value.Two kinds of pork (talk) 14:05, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Sue I hope you consider both sides on the issue, there were false accusations of trans-phobia made as well towards editors. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:07, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Um, have you made any progress with your definition of "transphobia'? It was admittedly unclear before, I hope you understand. I ask because I'd like to know and be clear about what you mean. __Elaqueate (talk) 18:21, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

False accusations of hate towards trans-gendered people. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:24, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Sue Gardner, You might also consider how many have been considering leaving Wikipedia because they think that some articles can be excessively influenced, or nearly controlled, by editors who place their own interests above what is in the best interest of an article and Wikipedia. Note that just as in the case you brought up, it's not a matter of whether those feelings that editors may have are reasonable or not, but whether they exist. --Bob K31416 (talk) 14:15, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Naming solution -- maintain two gender specific articles

Like Manning, Wikipedia is going through gender-identification trauma as to the proper way to use pronouns, etc. And like Manning, there is a solution. Wikipedia can maintain two distinct articles that mirror each other, differing only in the use of pronouns. For any reader linking to Bradley or Chelsea, they first get a choice page. It says "Wikipedia is maintaing two almost identical pages about Manning. (Manning is the US Army soldier convicted by court-martial for disclosing government information to WikiLeaks. Manning later decided to trans-gender from male to female, hence the choice of pronouns.) If you prefer to read about Manning with male pronouns, click 'Here'. If you prefer to read about Manning with female pronouns, click 'Here'." The pages can then be edited and a bot watches the pages for pronoun changes. If the female page gets male pronouns inserted, the bot rejects them. Same thing for the for the male page. If non-pronoun text gets changed, the bot make identical changes on the mirror page. – S. Rich (talk) 16:02, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

...no. No, people should have to deal with calling someone by their actual name and pronouns, not their dead name and legal pronouns. I hate to say it, but this isn't some kind of subject for academic debate - Chelsea is a woman, and to not respect that is generally agreed by trans people to be an enormous insult, and, furthermore, an act of transphobia in itself. Call her Chelsea and use her actual pronouns. This should, quite frankly, be something to which there is no discussion - it's honestly slightly horrifying that people here are reducing a real, living, feeling human being's identity to some kind of weird, terrible "academic debate". Just. Stop the debatism and respect her. No need to piss all over her identity just because ~policy~ or other such things. 50.68.50.161 (talk) 03:23, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I'm afraid it is up for academic debate, as there are many here who believe that the simple declaration that one is now a different gender actually makes it so. Tarc (talk) 03:32, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Any thoughts on whether such articles should exist for subjects other than trans women?? Georgia guy (talk) 16:07, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

For people who successfully undergo transformation, like Christine Jorgensen, the articles maintain their female and mixed pronoun usage. (Christine's article is relatively stable.) In Manning's case we don't know what sort of success in the transformation will be achieved in the foreseeable future. But Manning is a hot topic and resolving the issue would be helpful to the community. If this could be set up, it would be the pace setter. The technical aspects for the bot are far, far beyond me. – S. Rich (talk) 16:20, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

I can't wait to see how far that gets extended..."to read about an Israel with Jerusalem as its capital, click here", "to read an article about Muhammad sans images, click here", and so on. So, no, not gonna happen. In real life, not everyone gets to walk away from the table a winner, nor does everyone get a star just for trying real hard. If they did, my New England Patriots would've gotten to share the Superbowl trophy with Eli, because, hey, a perfect season is just the same as a bullshit miracle, right? But I digress. There are winners and losers, and sooner or later someone in this debate is going to be on the losing side. That's not a bad thing. Tarc (talk) 16:23, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

In any case, this is the wrong forum. bring it up at Village pump/technical. I think a simpler solution that doesn't go as far would be, whatever you search with, if there's a redirect, you get that as a title. So someone searching for "Chelsea Manning" will be brought to an article with "Chelsea" in the header, while someone searching for "Bradley Manning" will be brought to something with "Bradley" in the header- so you make the redirects invisible - it's a simple rendering change. But there will still be fights over where the "real" article sits.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:32, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

For Tarc: Actually there is a method to avoid seeing images of Muhammad; see Talk:Muhammad/FAQ. Israel has a consensus about the capital. Other cases can be handled by consensus. For Tarc & Obi: In Manning's case we are far, far away from achieving consensus as to the "real" article. Thus this idea is up the flagpole awaiting salutes. – S. Rich (talk) 16:43, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Actually for Manning I think Chelsea will win by commonname, I'd put the odds at 5:1 at this point.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:53, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, surely just a matter of time. Rothorpe (talk) 17:04, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Speaking of which, how does one count the sources? Even if every publisher switched to Chelsea, there aren't very many articles using that new name. Chelsea would be the tip of the iceberg, and Bradley everything else.Two kinds of pork (talk) 03:37, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

A method of avoiding seeing images in an article is not a different article, though. Tarc (talk) 17:53, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Same article, different pronouns. As there is a technical means to avoid images in an article, is there also a technical means to chose female or male pronouns? (Has this ground ever been tread?) – S. Rich (talk) 18:08, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry but this is just a dumb idea, we're not forking article content along ideological fault lines. If you can't be a part of making the hard and necessary decisions, then let others do so. Tarc (talk) 03:32, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

This is not a matter of improper WP:CONTENTFORKING. Readers would have a clear and open choice of their own. Indeed, WP:SUBPOV explicitly allows for this. As for putting my shoulder into maintaining this article, I invite editors to look at the contributor edit counts. – S. Rich (talk) 03:51, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

How is WP:SUBPOV related to this at all? MaxHarmony (talk) 06:23, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Guidance for use of personal pronouns

Is there anywhere in Wikpedia that gives guidance regarding the use of personal pronouns for people who have publicly requested to be referred to by a different gender than what they were referred to in the past? --Bob K31416 (talk) 17:38, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

MOS:IDENTITY: "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life. Direct quotations may need to be handled as exceptions (in some cases adjusting the portion used may reduce apparent contradictions, and " [sic]" may be used where necessary). Nevertheless, avoid confusing or seemingly logically impossible text that could result from pronoun usage (for example: instead of He gave birth to his first child, write He became a parent for the first time)." Startswithj (talk) 17:45, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:04, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

P.S. I noticed that there is currently a discussion in progress on the talk page for that guideline in the section RfC on pronouns throughout life. The RfC is about a sentence in the above excerpt from the guideline, "This applies in references to any phase of that person's life." --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:18, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

FYI, I started a section at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#Gender_self-identification to get some info about the first sentence of the above excerpt. --Bob K31416 (talk) 19:31, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Alexis_Reich#Requested_move_16_September_2013

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Alexis_Reich#Requested_move_16_September_2013. Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 04:08, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Template:Z48

Glad to see that got shot down quickly, but is this not a WP:CANVAS violation? You probably should not be using this page as a recruiting station. Artw (talk) 16:21, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

It did make me raise my eyebrows when a notification was placed on this page. -sche (talk) 08:02, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Undue emphasis on gender identity

Another article has been merged into this article, and the result in my opinion is an undue weight to the gender identity issue. For instance the "Reactions to coverage" (of the gender change) section is just as large as the "Reactions to the disclosure section". The latter is obviously what Manning is primarily notable for. The article already before this had an undue weight on personal issues. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 20:27, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Feel free to trim the section down then, I just merged the article per the merge discussion outcome that closed recently. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:30, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Many of the details are repeated from other sections. For example, the cupboard incident. – S. Rich (talk) 00:32, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it could definitely use some pruning. Feel free to start snipping! Kaldari (talk) 00:37, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

I cut the material that seemed to be merely repetition of text from the "Military" section's narrative earlier, and I reworded some of the New York Times response to be slightly slimmer. However, I would just assume cut the NYT, USA Today, and NPR response subsections entirely, as their effect seems to be summarized sufficiently in the "Initial Media Coverage" subsection immediately prior. Thoughts? Startswithj (talk) 07:40, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

On second thought, I think this an appropriate place to stop cutting. The overall size of this "Gender Identity" section looks more in balance with the other sections of the article. Startswithj (talk) 07:59, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

If the section is too large, the solution is not to cut out notable and relevant material, but to use WP:SUMMARY and move the detailed coverage to a separate sub-article. Just saying... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:04, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

When the "notable and relevant" material is WP:UNDUE weight, duplicates existing material, or is over-expansive and non concise, it should be trimmed and rewritten, now that is it no longer part of a split article struggling to seem important enough to deserve that split. The community has voted. In the end the whole gender identity publicity stunt will probably be forgotten and will fade to black. However, the actions of Manning wrt leaks will be remembered for a long time to come. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 23:49, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Actually, the title of this talk section "Undue emphasis on gender identity" wasn't the main reason for my trimming. It was rather that the trimmed parts were too much of a digression from the topic of the article because they were too much about the media coverage of the gender identity, rather than Manning's gender identity itself. --Bob K31416 (talk) 00:09, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

I made a major trim in the section. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:18, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Your summary looks good, thank you. Startswithj (talk) 15:39, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Gender pronoun retroactivity for notable person may cause confusion regarding sexual identity of non-notable person

In some cases, being pronoun-retroactive about the gender identity of the subject of the article, a notable person, leads to the sexual identity of a non-notable person mentioned in the article being really, really easy to misidentify. I feel the text needs to be updated to avoid this confusion.

Specifically these items:

• It was while stationed there in the fall of 2008 that she met Tyler Watkins, who was studying neuroscience and psychology at Brandeis University, near Boston. Watkins was her first serious relationship, and she posted happily on Facebook about it, regularly traveling 300 miles to Boston on visits.
• By September 2009 her relationship with Watkins was in trouble; they reconciled for a short time, but it was effectively over.
• After her arrest, her former partner, Tyler Watkins, told Wired that Manning had said during the visit that she had found some sensitive information and was considering leaking it.

The last one is even more confusing, as it also seems to be quoting what Tyler told Wired; that quote, which may show his perception of Manning's gender identity at the time (which was after the relationship was already over for quite some time), is in fact this:

“He wanted to do the right thing,” says 20-year-old Tyler Watkins. “That was something I think he was struggling with.”

In general wikipedia-wide, are there any objections to or standards w.r.t. clarifying the sexual identity of a non-notable person which is made unclear by the pronoun change of a notable person who changes his or her public gender identity after the relationship is over, while maintaining the gender pronoun preference of that notable person?

Does anyone know of precedent?

I'd rather for a general discussion to have points made / maybe reach some consensus before any specific re-wordings are suggested, as I feel as though there may be a separate, somewhat independent discussion surrounding that issue, even if there is 100% general agreement that something should be done. It would be useful to not have the two mixed in with each other, as one is more of a policy point, and the other is more of a style point.

— Djbclark (talk) 12:18, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Respectfully I disagree that the above-quoted statements are confusing. There may always be room for improvement in any situation, however. You could try reordering words or phrases, or replacing she/her with Manning or the Private, etc., but another reader might in turn find the avoidance of basic pronouns confusing.

Wikipedia's MOS:IDENTITY#Identity may offer the advice you're seeking.

Please also note, sexual identity specifically refers to a person's self-perception of their sexual relationship to other individuals (e.g. gay, straight, not interested at all, etc.). Gender identity is more a person's self-perception of their mental/emotion relationship to others with regards femininity/masculinity/queerness. Cheers, Startswithj (talk) 17:28, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)One possibility in these situations, which might get the most agreement among editors, is to try not to use gender pronouns. For example, the first excerpt in the first message of this talk section could be rewritten as the following.

It was while stationed there in the fall of 2008 that Manning's first serious relationship began with Tyler Watkins, who was studying neuroscience and psychology at Brandeis University, near Boston. Manning posted happily on Facebook about it, regularly traveling 300 miles to Boston on visits.

--Bob K31416 (talk) 17:34, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Ah, yes, that would seem to read better. Startswithj (talk) 18:55, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. --Bob K31416 (talk) 23:36, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Djbclark, I just read over your message again and noticed that I had overlooked your request not to suggest a rewrite. Many apologies.

I think your point is that by referring to Manning with feminine pronouns in mentioning the relationship with Watkins, it might suggest that Watkins is straight instead of gay. That leads me to ask the question of anyone here about the situation where a man such as Watkins has a sexual relationship with a transgender woman such as Manning who is physically a man. Is the sexual relationship considered straight or gay? --Bob K31416 (talk) 23:36, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

It'd be gay, but that's not the point. Manning's still physically a man, so the article should refer to him with male pronouns or just remove all pronouns and call him Private Manning. FokkerTISM 05:40, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Gender identity is not mediated by surgery, as has been discussed here ad nauseaum. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:39, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

It would be straight. But can the OP explain why it should matter to Wikipedia what the sexual identity of non-notable persons may be? Marnanel (talk) 11:20, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

The sentences are only "confusing" if you read them entirely out of context and then assume that Manning had a female body at the time of the events described. But in the context of the article, which clearly explains Manning's sex and gender, there is nothing at all confusing about the text. In addition your claim that "it also seems to be quoting what Tyler told Wired" is odd. Anyone who understands how quoting works knows that you are only quoting when you use quotation marks (like I just did with you). So anyone who thinks this text that is not in quotation marks is a quotation lacks a basic grasp of writing in English. The text is not confusing to a competent language user. 99.192.84.150 (talk) 13:15, 21 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)