Talk:Hans Asperger

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Did they ever release Fritz V.'s entire name? Canadianism 21:01, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Did Asperger experience any difficulty with the authorities in Austria while carrying out his research ? Given the general enviornment in early 1940's Austria in which social attitudes to anyting that was percieved as a disability, disorder or even eccentric/nonconforming behaviour were (to put it mildly) intolerant it is hard to imagine how such research could have been undertaken in such a society ?

Involvement in Nazi T-4 program?

Hans Asperger worked in Nazi state hospitals during the 1930's, the time when the T-4 Euthanasia program to eliminate mental patients was in progress. Rumors based on biographies and personal notes of Hans Asperger spoke on his research on adults displayed "autistic" behaviors, was said related to the T-4 Euthanasia program. I wish to uncover the sources to prove this well-known theory that the Nazis hired Dr. Asperger to investigate mental/neurological disorders. It's well popular myth of other psychiatrists in the research field of autism like Bruno Bettelheim, although an Austrian Jew faced internment in Nazi concentration camps in 1938 was said to participated in the Nazi state hospitals, and Bettelheim was hired a camp doctor to serve Jewish prisoners. Bettelheim left Germany in 1941 to first Australia and in 1945 to the U.S. continued his research in autism and behavioral therapies of autistic adult patients. Now back to the question: Has Dr. Asperger took part in the Nazi T-4 program, even though not involved in any euthanasia? But his role in the Leipzig state hospital was to supervise and study mental patients in a way for Nazi officials to decide on matters...the value of their lives.--Mike D 26 07:29, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

The commentary above seems founded on an extremely vague understanding of what euthanasia was in the Third Reich. The euthanasia decree was only issued in September 1939. It purported to be for the relief of the suffering of incurably ill people. The decree was withdrawn two years after it was issued. During that time only 70,000 instances of euthanasia occurred, less than one in one-thousand Germans. This is far, far too small a number to include all moderately retarded or moderately psychotic people in the population. Hadding (talk) 09:31, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

(It's perhaps rather late to reply to Hadding's comment above, but Silberman (Neurotribes, cited in the actual wiki article) gives a figure of more than 200,000 killed during the official phase of child euthenasia and the T-4 program. 88.144.51.83 (talk) 23:29, 4 December 2015 (UTC))

I personally would be interested in knowing if Asperger's positive 1944 take on the societal role of people with high functioning autism could have been influenced at all by humanitarian objectives (e.g. reinforcing the social value of persons who might otherwise have been subject to prosecution at the hands of the Nazis).99.240.139.189 (talk) 05:25, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Unclear wording

"Her paper, Asperger's syndrome: a clinical account, was published in 1981 and it challenged the previously accepted model of autism presented by Leo Kanner in 1943. Unlike Kanner, his findings were ignored and disregarded in the English speaking world in his lifetime. His clinic was bombed during the war as well. Finally, from the early 1990s, his findings began to gain notice, and nowadays Asperger's Syndrome is recognized as a condition world wide."

Are they talking about another person here, or should the second pronoun be her? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 132.170.40.107 (talk) 20:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

Pronunciation

What is the correct pronunciation of Hans Asperger's name? Aardvark92 06:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

['as|pɛʀ|gɐ] or ['as|pɛʀ|gɛʀ]. I think. Whether the trill is uvular or alveolar depends on dialect. I suck at IPA... #29 ^(talk) 08:14, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

To hear a native German speaker pronounce Hans Asperger's name, go to How to pronounce Hans Asperger on Forvo.com Sparrowrose (talk) 02:53, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

If, seventy years after the period in question , no definitive proof has been found to verify Asperberg's participation in the T-4 program it may be time to put the question to rest-especially since he is long dead and cannot defend himself. The now discredited Bruno Bettelheim seems to left Germany in 1939, not 1941. It would curious indeed if he had been allowed to leave after the beginning of hostilities. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.211.230.34 (talk) 04:05, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Asperger and Eugenics

The full relevant chapter can be accessed here: [1]
I would direct you to statements by Asperger such as those regarding "the transmission of sick genetic material," (p. 16) although it is worth bearing in mind that this work is very one sided (i.e., pro-Asperger) and other more critical works exist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.44.1.174 (talk) 13:34, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia editing is governed by policies and guidelines. One very important policy is Wikipedia:Verifiability. We report what cited reliable sources say. This is essentially what the source you're citing has to say on the matter of his affiliation with the Nazi Party. If you want to say something else, please find a recent biography of the man that refutes that position. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:32, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

The source used says exactly what was stated in the article. Also, it must be made clear that the fact Asperger was in the Hitler Youth is not in doubt; he was, yet it is his views towards it that are the only thing in question. Similarly, Asperger made eugenics statements; this too is not in doubt and is an established fact. Again, the source given makes this clear. I understand that you yourself might believe you have the syndrome named after this man, but try not to let it cloud your judgement or lead you to try to hide obvious and indisputable facts about the man's life. No one is saying that Asperger was a NAZI, simply that these links explain certain parts of his early views. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.197.127.207 (talk) 15:56, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Wow. How incredibly rude. As I said in an edit summary, I couldn't care less what the man's history is. I care about accurately representing our sources. You're claiming stuff here that is not supported by the sources you cite. Please stop making stuff up. Do a little actual work. Find sources that actually agree with the claims you're making. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 16:35, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I am the only one here adding sources. You either read them and ignore them, or simply do not understand them. Stating that Asperger's diagnoses are currently accepted is an outright falsehood. Your edits in relation to his early life simply delete details you don't like, and make less sense to anyone reading the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.197.127.207 (talk) 16:57, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

The source [2] does not support the claims made for it. In particular note (regarding eugenics) the comments by Marc Bush on page 16, comments on page 11 making clear that his diary was critical of Nazism, later mentions of how he opposed eugenics (specifically wrt the syndrome), page 18 that he was never a "Nazi", and no connecting of Asperger to the "Hitler Youth" at all. The page 15 claim is that one person "fervently believed that Asperger has either been a member of Hitler Youth ..." which fails to meet the requirements for the claim made at all. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:17, 4 April 2012 (UTC) Also note the source on page 15 states There seems to be no evidence of this whatsoever— indeed, the very opposite is more likely to be the case, as we shall see shortly. Connecting Asperger to Hitler and Naxis here is a nice example of source-misuse. Collect (talk) 12:20, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

By the way, I (who originally added this source) never even mentioned the term NAZI in the article; information regarding Asperger's use of eugenics early in his work was mentioned only. The term NAZI got added in later edits. This source fully acknowledges that Asperger did in fact make these eugenics statements, although upon re-reading it certainly muddies the waters regarding Asperger's participation in Hitler Youth (understandably, as it is a pro-Asperger syndrome source). Nevermind, other sources exist for this information. However I take exception to the charge of "source-misuse"; the source fully acknowledges eugenics related statements made by Asperger even while seeking to diminish and dismiss them—hardly a compelling argument. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.197.127.104 (talk) 13:07, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I was going to retire from this page but I'll just answer this. Yes. Weinstein, p.15 says some critics have claimed that Asperger himself had affinities with the Nazis. But we do our best to reflect the current consensus, and in the little reading I've done on this question so far, I haven't encountered one author in the last thirty years defending Schopler's view, and I have seen numerous recitals of the position Weinstein takes. You'll need to demonstrate that Schopler's view was ever taken seriously, and how seriously it is taken now by scholars in the field, before we can determine if it's worth mentioning and, if so, how to characterise its degree of acceptance over time. Find a current reliable source that supports Schopler's view, or that throws light on its past and present degree of acceptance by the scholarly community, and we can adjust the weight we give to that view accordingly. Until then, we report the apparent current scholarly consensus as expressed by Weinstein, and which I think I captured quite well here. -Anthonyhcole (talk) 14:09, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you so much for bringing this book to the page, by the way. I enjoyed the chapter you posted above very much. I've always wanted to know the history of autism. In this conversation I said I'd like to write an article about the word, autism, as Bleuler and Kraepelin used it, and this text will be very helpful with that. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:08, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

No problem, I think the historical development of autism is poorly understood and is a major part of the nosological vaugeness regarding AS. This has lead to AS being little more than a catch-all for both individuals with high-functioning autism, as well as people raised in dysfunctional/unloving environments with—in all likelihood—no genetic etiology. The academic disarray in regards to AS renders it the most extreme example of this kind of confusion, rivaling only Dissociative identity disorder (that I know of at least). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.197.127.239 (talk) 18:06, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree with every word of that. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 19:12, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

'AP' ?

In this sentence in the first paragraph: "Both Asperger's original paediatric diagnosis of AP and the eponymous diagnosis of AS ...", the term 'AP' is never properly introduced and expanded. Fix please? 124.168.80.92 (talk) 06:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Franz "Hamburger"

My edit clearly needs a fuller explanation. Seriously, who would have such a surname? It makes no sense at all. I am certain that Feinstein has at best found a poor translation and got the name wrong, or at worst just make it up because he couldn't translate it. That's why I removed the source, no matter what the rules say about reference accuracy, ISBN numbers etc. I don't doubt the book says it. What I'm saying is the book has to be wrong. It's the reason why we need another source to back it up, and until then (in my opinion) the reference needs to come down and the name removed. 121.214.29.71 (talk) 20:54, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

The text is cited to two google books. There are multiple mentions of Franz Hamburger in both Google Scholar and in PubMed. Almost all of the articles are in German, or full text of the article is not available, so I can't add much on those, but this source specifically places a Dr. Franz Hamburger in Austria in the early 1900s. Perhaps someone can access PMID 13203537. Another mention is here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:20, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Also, I've removed your link to the article about Franz Hamburger in the German Wiki and left a redlink for his article to be created here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:27, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

See also: Hamburger (surname). Not to mention Felix Frankfurter, Albert R. Broccoli, Richard Bacon, John Candy, and innumerable Wieners. I think I'd rather be a Hamburger than a Wiener. Ruby Murray 23:20, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm shaking my head in disbelief here. All you're doing is showing multiple examples of a poor English translation linking to that list of surnames. It's the only example of the use of an American term for a fast food, which is distinct from all the others which are either German originally (Frankfurter and Wiener) or world wide. It's also offensive because of the relationship the name has with the derogatory "Assburger" term. It has to be wrong! Hanburger or even Hahnburger makes more sense, but no we have this Americanism instead. This needs to be examined properly and the origin of the name fully explored so the correct translation can be found. I've already found one example of the surname being used to smear the Autistic community - that's what brought me here in the first place. 121.214.29.71 (talk) 07:15, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

This is neither an Americanism nor a slur. Why do you think it's a translation? There is, after all, a major German city called Hamburg (neither a translation nor a transliteration). It is very easy to find other references to this surname, including both of these links found very quickly using Google: here and here. Clearly, the name has been in user before the name Asperger was known in this context. If the name has been used elsewhere as a slur, that is irrelevant here. DaveSeidel (talk) 15:03, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. A "Hamburger" originally only meant someone from Hamburg, just as a New Yorker is from New York and a Londoner is from London. Centuries later, "hamburger" also came into use as a nickname for a ground meat patty, just as Berliner normally means someone from Berlin, but can also mean a type of doughnut, among other things. I would guess that Asperger's family were from Asperg, Germany. Ruby Murray 17:17, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

If I was from Hamburg and was called a "Hamburger" I'd slap them! Seriously! "Hamburger" is best known as an American take away food. This is reading like a pack of excuses. There's a serious issue here, and no Dave it IS being used as a slur in this context so it's not irrelevant. I'd link you, but I'll bet it's been blacklisted and rightly so. 121.214.29.71 (talk) 08:52, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Another editor has added this book reference in English about how Asperger was taught in Vienna by Dr. Franz Hamburger. If you can provide verifiable evidence from reliable sources to disprove the references given, please do so. Until then, the consensus here is clearly to keep this referenced and correct content. Thanks, Ruby Murray 12:04, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Okay obviously this mistake has become ingrained and can't be corrected easily. I'm still shaking my head in disbelief. Maybe one day sanity will prevail and the mistake corrected. Meanwhile though, this error will continue to be used by scaremongers as a slur. Disgusting. 121.214.29.71 (talk) 21:12, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Please take one more look at the sources SandyGeorgia linked to back at the beginning of this thread. The name is clearly cited. It's also clear that this is a real name, used by real people. If you can come up with any evidence that the usage of this name in this context is incorrect, please provide a citation. Otherwise, there's nothing more to discuss. We simply can't remove cited information in favor of unproven supposition. DaveSeidel (talk) 22:49, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I already did, so don't patronise me. I stand by my belief that there has been a bad translation and it is being used as a slur and I remain disgusted that the error has occurred and has become ingrained in sourcing. If you can't see the issue in spite of the sourcing you state takes precedence then you're a part of the problem. 121.214.29.71 (talk) 23:11, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

that's nice, we've heard you. If you come back with a source that supports your view, we might have a problem and even a solution. If not, please read WP:NOTAFORUM. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:24, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Georg Frankl

The Georg Frankl mentioned as working with Asperger before WWII must not to be confused with George Frankl, the philosopher, psychoanalyst and writer: born Vienna 12 December 1921; died London 25 December 2004. George Frankle was imprisoned in Dachau but escaped and was able to relocate to England in 1939 (not the USA) where he later became a British citizen.