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January 5

Black Toon

In Chapter 7 of Robert Louis Stevenson's Weir of Hermiston it says:

In the meantime, Kirstie had escaped into the kitchen, and before her vassal gave vent to her feelings.

"Here, ettercap! Ye'll have to wait on yon Innes! I canna haud myself in.

'Puir Erchie!' I'd 'puir Erchie' him, if I had my way!

And Hermiston with the deil's ain temper!

God, let him take Hermiston's scones out of his mouth first.

There's no a hair on ayther o' the Weirs that hasna mair spunk and dirdum to it than what he has in his hale dwaibly body!

Settin' up his snash to me!

Let him gang to the black toon where he's mebbe wantit -- birling in a curricle -- wi' pimatum on his heid -- making a mess o' himsel' wi' nesty hizzies -- a fair disgrace!"

It was impossible to hear without admiration Kirstie's graduated disgust, as she brought forth, one after another, these somewhat baseless charges.

What does "Black Toon" mean? --Guy Macon (talk) 20:39, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Guessing "black town". Jmar67 (talk) 20:51, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Usually spelt toun: "Sc. forms and usages of Eng. town". Alansplodge (talk) 21:47, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And I'll suggest that a "black" town is probably an industrial one, where a man mebbe wantit for factory work. --142.112.159.101 (talk) 07:43, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly Edinburgh, which was known as Auld Reekie because of its smokiness, though this was more from domestic fires than industry. The Archie (Erchie) Weir of the title was originally from Edinburgh. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 08:23, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There is (or used to be) a Blackstone in Renfrewshire, which was apparently once "Black's Toun", which may have just been an estate (toun/ton/tun/toon in a place name can mean either "town" as in walled settlement or simply "manor" or "estate"). Perhaps that was where he was referring to. See [1] and [2]. See also here for a map and some background on the area; it once housed the Blackstone Pits, a mining and oil extraction interest once owned by one William Black, who's name may or may not be connected to it. --Jayron 32 14:41, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I also found "There is an old town of Stornoway, as well as a new one; it is a black town, and it is black enough". From The Highlands and Western Isles of Scotland, Containing Descriptions of their Scenery and Antiquities by John Macculloch (1824) p. 288. So perhaps it just means any run-down urban area. Alansplodge (talk) 17:42, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Some of these guess are rather wide of the mark, given the context. To translate, Kirstie talks about Archie "carousing in a carriage, with pomatum in his hair"; we're talking city slicker, not factory worker here. Henry ^Flower 21:37, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

She could still be referring to the city itself as "black" due to the factory smoke, but be talking about Archie going there and acting like a fancy "city slicker". --Khajidha (talk) 21:53, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

January 9

It's cold drinks signs in Japan

I fail to understand the name of this category "https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:It’s_cold_drink_signs_in_Japan" at Wikipedia Commons. What does "It's cold drink signs in Japan" mean? How is that supposed to be parsed? The original Japanese name doesn't help as I don't understand Japanese. JIP | Talk 16:48, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at its parent category "Category:Food and drink signs in Japan", it's clear that the word "It's" should be removed. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:58, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That category is a little strange, since it contains a Unicode "smartquote" character, which is somewhat against Commons consensus, and also appears to be a poor translation from Japanese into English... AnonMoos (talk) 00:27, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Recommending_signs_in_Japan 89.172.38.145 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:39, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would put it to you that it is punctuation that is at fault, and that it should be read as, "Its Cold" Drinks sign in Japan. Thanks. Anton 81.131.40.58 (talk) 10:13, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Its" is a possessive. What would "its cold" mean? His cold or her cold. But "its" cold? An inanimate object with a cold?? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:13, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Its cold" means "it's cold". Really not so difficult. -- Hoary (talk) 13:10, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No, it doesn't. "It's" is a contraction of "it is". "Its" is the possessive of "it". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:33, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry. I should have taken the trouble to write: "When Anton wrote '"Its Cold" Drinks sign in Japan', by 'Its Cold' he meant what is conventionally written 'It's cold'. Really not so difficult." -- Hoary (talk) 22:19, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That makes sense. And either way, the "it[']s" doesn't really make sense. Maybe a mistranslation. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:46, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So far as I bothered to look, the signs advertise cold drinks, or else drinks that can be assumed to be, or at least to include, cold drinks. The signs do not advertise the coldness of the drinks. So "'It's cold' drinks signs in Japan" wouldn't be appropriate. Plain "Cold drinks signs in Japan" would be appropriate. -- Hoary (talk) 13:10, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What he said, which is what I said up top. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:37, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It appears the category was created by Benzoyl (talk · contribs) a couple of years ago. He's still active, on Commons at least,[3] so maybe you could ask him why he gave that category its name. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:13, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

January 10

grammatical aspect of "the more...,the more..."

Good evening, I would like to know the grammatical aspect of "the more...,the more...", please ? Thank you in advance.2A01:CB0C:38C:9F00:CDD4:2336:1EF3:78FB (talk) 20:50, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what you mean by "grammatical aspect", but I believe that the the in such an expression is descended from Old English þȳ (ðȳ), the instrumental (singular, masculine and neuter) case of the definite article sē. The example given in the OE primer I have at hand is "ðȳ māra wīsdom on lande wǣre, ðȳ we mā geðēode cūðon" ("The more languages we know, the more wisdom there will be in the land"). Deor (talk) 21:24, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is indeed a baffling question. (Are you really asking about grammatical aspect here?) -- Hoary (talk) 22:22, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the question is about grammatical aspect. One can find the term "parallel comparative" used for this construction, for example in the Cambridge Preparation for the TOEFL® Test. In some languages the two "the"s aren't identical, e.g. "quanto... tanto..." (or "altrettanto...") in Italian and "je... desto..." in German. Maybe this can help find another more commonly used term for "the more... the more...", "the louder... the better...", etc. As in Deor's old example, the two parts can use different tenses, but that doesn't make the whole thing special in terms of grammatical aspect. ---Sluzzelin talk 22:53, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As for the construction in English, the term used for it in The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language (pp 1135–1137) is the correlative comparative construction. It has various syntactic complexities: the treatment in CGEL twice shades into blue ("specialist passages", as explained on p xii). -- Hoary (talk) 00:02, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

January 11

Wonka's Latin

At the end of the good version of the movie, Willy Wonka yells at Charlie and Grandpa Joe something that sounds kind of like "Fax mentis incendium gloria cultum, et cetera et cetera. Memo bis punitor delicatum!" Google translate accepts most of this as legitimate Latin words but it makes no sense: "Fax glory of the fire service, and so on and so forth. Twice memo punishing nice!" He's lawyering with them over a contract, so the "memo" in there might be legit, if misplaced, as would the "punishing". Can anyone confirm the translation or improve it? The film is filled with literary quotes and also features other foreign languages spoken correctly, so there's some hope that this is not only proper Latin, but perhaps a quote. Matt Deres (talk) 02:54, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

fax mentis incendium gloriæ — the flame of glory is the torch of the mind
nemo bis punitur pro eodem delicto — no one can be twice punished for the same offence

I see people quoting Wonka with both cultum and culpum (culpa?).—eric 05:55, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

According to this and this the quote is:

'"I, the undersigned, shall forfeit all rights, privileges, and licenses herein and herein contained," et cetera, et cetera..."Fax mentis incendium gloria cultum,"[the torch of the mind lights the path to glory] et cetera, et cetera..."MEMO BIS PUNITOR DELICATUM"!! [I remember the spoiled punisher twice] It's ALL there! Black and white, clear as crystal!'

I leave it someone who actually speaks Latin to comment further. Alansplodge (talk) 09:10, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

this site states fax mentis... is from a motto of the Earls of Granard (File:Bookplate-Earl of Granard.jpg) and also suggest:

Memo(r) bis punitur delictum — I am mindful (that) the crime is punished twice [or in two ways]
Memor non bis punitur peccatum — Remember, no sin is punished twice.

but i cannot find those two phrases anywhere else. The linked transcription has culpum but ignores for the translation. The author (a "huge Wonka fan", so i am sure trustworthy) also states the allusions were from David Seltzer and not part of Roald Dahl's original screenplay (here is a version w/ revisions by Seltzer, but no latin for the scene in question).—eric 13:52, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I love the refdesk. :) So, is it nemo or memo at the start of the second line? It could be that people are assuming the second, as I did, because "nemo" in English has a long 'e' while "memo" has a short one. That is, does he say "Nemo bis punitor delicatum!" meaning to say "Nemo bis punitor delictum!" (No one/offense is punished twice!)? Matt Deres (talk) 15:12, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely "memo" in every quote I can find. However, the usual pronunciation of "nemo" (in the UK at least) is with a short "e" (Nemo me impune lacessit) unless it's Captain Nemo. Alansplodge (talk) 18:35, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think Wilder clearly says "memo"(apparently youtube is blacklisted so can't link) and probably culpam tho he looks a little agitated. Nemo is just from a well known phrase that looked similar to the transcript. The Latin in the contract might not have been added by Seltzer, the script above is probably[4] his last revision, except for a small addition to the ending.—eric 00:38, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, there's an error somewhere in the writing, transcription, or performance of this passage. Temerarius (talk) 23:28, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

January 12

Yakut/Sakha transliteration/transcription

Does anyone at Wikipedia speak Yakut/Sakha and would be willing to transliterate a few words for me? I have created a transliteration via autotools but they are notoriously unreliable when represented in non-Roman characters and unfortunately there is no support for this language at WP:TRLA... -Thibbs (talk) 02:11, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Link Yakut and Sakha. Thanks. Anton 81.131.40.58 (talk) 10:05, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

La milie, de Borabora

What does “La milie” or “La miliee” mean in French? Found here. — KAVEBEAR (talk) 06:05, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It should be la milice, "the militia". The final e in the image caption is damaged.Deor (talk) 06:20, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! KAVEBEAR (talk) 10:59, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

dans la partie la moins noble de son individu

Can someone translate “pieds dans la partie la moins noble de son individu" into English? Is it correct to say kick in the groin? KAVEBEAR (talk) 11:01, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"La partie la moins noble de son individu" seems to have been a rather clichéd euphemism for a person's posterior in French. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:56, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a reliable source translating this term that I can use? KAVEBEAR (talk) 17:45, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's a quote from Paul Féval, fils in his 1925 adventure novel series D'Artagnan contre Cyrano de Bergerac from Volume I: Le chevalier mystère (p. 30):

"...il dut faire volte-face et présenta à la botte de son terrible assaillant la partie... la moins noble de son individu" - perhaps "he had to turn around and ~~presented his boot to his terrible assailant... on the least noble part of his person~~ presented to the boot of his terrible assailant... the least noble part of his person". I had to take my French O-level twice, so someone else might do better.

An English translation of the series, The Years Between was published in 1928, The Years Between: The Mysterious Cavalier is available to buy but I couldn't find one that can be read online, probably thanks to the US copyright laws.

Alansplodge (talk) 18:19, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure the D'Artagnan novel is the first or original attestation of the phrase; several you can find on the net (including the one Kavebear is probably thinking of) seem to predate it. That's why I assumed it's just a common cliché. (And the sentence you quote wouldn't be "presented his boot to his terrible assailant…", but "presented to the boot of his terrible assailant…", i.e. had to take a kick in the butt from him). Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:30, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ah yes Fut.Perf., that makes more sense, thank you. You're also right about the chronology; I was looking at the same phrase in a much later book. It must be a French idiom then. Alansplodge (talk) 18:37, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Force from

Is "force from" a genuine usage? If so can I get a webpage having some examples? I see this in Melitta Schenk Gräfin von Stauffenberg: "But in 1936 she was forced from her job as aeronautical engineer because of her paternal grandfather's Jewish origins."

What an odd question. And administartors are usually expected to sign their posts. There's plenty of usage of that particular string in both news outlets and literature. All the best! ——SN 54129 14:07, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A Dictionary of the English Language: In which the Words are Deduced from Their Originals etc. Volume II (1805 edition) p. 287 by Samuel Johnson: "IMMOVABLE. adj. 1. Not to be forced from its place". Alansplodge (talk) 15:13, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 103: / Line 103: @@
 Does anyone at Wikipedia speak Yakut/Sakha and would be willing to transliterate a few words for me? I have created a transliteration via autotools but they are notoriously unreliable when represented in non-Roman characters and unfortunately there is no support for this language at [[WP:TRLA]]... -[[User:Thibbs|Thibbs]] ([[User talk:Thibbs|talk]]) 02:11, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
+:Link [[Yakut]] and [[Sakha]].  Thanks.  Anton [[Special:Contributions/81.131.40.58|81.131.40.58]] ([[User talk:81.131.40.58|talk]]) 10:05, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
 == La milie, de Borabora ==