Talk:Doogh

Doogh template

This user proudly drinks
ayran.

Attention doogh lovers: Use this template to tell everyone how you love doogh!--Zereshk 10:28, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

• • Thanks! huntersquid 20:15, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Carbonated

I'm confused. The article states that doogh is "similar to [..] Ayran, although the latter is not carbonated." Does that mean that doogh is carbonated? While a later section addresses this point, it should really be mentioned sooner. -- Ec5618 19:53, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

• Doogh is carbonated, I'm about 99% sure of that huntersquid 20:15, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

doogh can be carbonated or not traditional doogh is not carbonated at all!!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.200.96.190 (talk) 15:16, 28 March 2015 (UTC) 

Dogh is not carbonated in Afghanistan

Dogh is very common in Afghanistan and common in the western half of Pakistan, and is NEVER carbonated. In the eastern half of Pakistan it turns into lassi and is either sweet or salty, I'm not sure of the difference between salty lassi and traditional dogh, but it tastes very different.

Afghanistani dogh is quote sour, frequently made from sheep/goat milk and is never carbonated or sweetened. I live in the viscinity and have never had sweetened dogh (except in Karachi, southeast Pakistan) or carbonated dogh except in Iran (one sip was quote enough). Dogh however is a daily ration in Balochistan and most of Afghanistan except the most urban areas. It is frequently poured from sheepskin containers carried by shepherds. I suspect an alcoholic content in dogh since it makes you sleepy so fast it knocks a guest out in 5 minutes regardless of nationality or previous exposure to dogh. Its always pronounced dogh in central afghanistan and Balochistan and never doogh. I suspect this is an Iranian pronunciation.

this drink is still commonly drunk among the historical urban Persians (Tajiks) and not just the rural areas. Personally, I grew up on this drink and my family have been urbanites for several generations. This is a national drink there as well and this articles fails to even mention it (and many other articles make it appear that the people within modern Afghanistan have little (or at least less than accepted historical reality) connections toward with the people of present-day Iran, which is at best a POV and worse more akin to propaganda as it reimagines historical realities among these historical Persian populations. We can do better, team. Thanks and kind regards. Jamaas9 (talk) 22:05, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Dough is the same as ayran

dough (persian) or ayran (turkish) can be carbonated, this is done either naturally or by adding CO2 like other beverages. I am from Tabriz and I am completely familiar with both Turkish and Persian languages.

doogh in afghanistan

dogh is a very popular drink in afghanistan too, and I can't understand why it's not mentioned. also, in afghanistan it can be carbonated, but usually is not, and sometimes its served with cucumber inside.

can confirm that “Afghan” doogh is usually made with chopped cucumber,mint (dried or fresh depending on availability but i only do dried as that's what my family taught me) and watered down yogurt with ice. There should be some mention of this as it relates to ancient Persia (Greater Iran) and arguably 70%+ Afghans are ethnic Iranians. —Jamaas9 (talk) 22:35, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Carbonated?

Doogh is and is not carbonated. It depends. As sold in the streets of Iran, they are carbonated. Like Doogh of Abali. But if you step into a good classy restaurant in Iran, or anywhere else, doogh is not carbonated and is homemade.

In homes, people often make and drink the homemade uncarbonated version, unless they buy it from the grocery shop or something.

This also applies to outside Iran. Here in Texas, they sell the carbonated version in "Ali Baba's Mediterranean food store" (the biggest Iranian food store in town). But if you go to "Shiraz Persian Cuisine" restaurant, youll be served the uncarbonated version.--Zereshk 01:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Uncarbonated doogh is okay but once carbonated it becomes a truly amazing beverage and quite unique. Carbonated doogh makes the world a better place. Wow! No really. Wow! -- Derek Ross | Talk 06:51, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

it is written that Doogh is naturally carbonated. I think it is not true. in Iran there are bottled doogh which are carbonated but there are also doogh which are not. A home made doogh is is not carbonated. My conclusion is therefore Ayran= Doogh. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 20:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Interesting, but in the article doogh, it reads so. Could you make necessary changes in doogh? Thanks. --Chapultepec (talk) 20:55, 19 November 2007 (UTC) I would like to do, but I have not written that there. I just copy and paste our communcations in that page and let's see whether the original author changes it. If not I will edit that page myself. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 21:00, 19 November 2007 (UTC) Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ayran"

Mastaow?

Can somebody please tell me this is the Mastaow in Kurdish language or not? Chaldean 01:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

YES, Its the same. Mastaow and doogh are the same thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.204.107 (talk) 18:45, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually they are not, there is a difference between Mastaw and Do (doogh), this article reffers to Do and not Mastaw

Local doogh of Isfahan?

isn't the image in the article with the caption "local doogh of isfahan" picturing "ash-e doogh/mast". it can't be doogh.--Xashaiar (talk) 02:09, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

also the image with the caption "doogh with garlic" is showing some kind of dalal mast. that is the image is, though a relative of doogh, showing yogurt with garlic. it can not be doogh.--Xashaiar (talk) 22:30, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I think the image labelled "Doogh with Garlic" is actually a factory-made "Yoghurt with Shallot [Mâst-Musir]", so perhaps better be presented under Yoghurt.--Bee (talk) 18:33, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Proposed merge

What about we merge it in Ayran? As it is pointed above, the doogh CAN be carbonated or not, sa can the Ayran. They really ARE the same thing. OR we do something else: We specify under this article the carbonated version, and under Ayran the non carbonated one.

Cheers,

--Emir Ali Enç (talk) 00:39, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree, it should be merge. What is all this nonsense about wording, Doogh = Ayran = Tan. They are all the same product, regardless of origin or way of preparation. It is like saying bolognese sauce is not ragu. --Vitilsky (talk) 17:57, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

I disagree. Doogh is Persian but Ayran is Turkish. While these drinks may be similar or perhaps even identical, there doesn't seem to be any reason to merge them especially if this gives preference to the name the drink has in a specific region. Is there a generic term for this type of minted yogurt beverage? Fleetham (talk) 02:00, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

i agree with merging all are the same product with different names .like water su and eau ,water is water doesnt matter what you call it!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.200.96.190 (talk) 15:21, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree. The fact that these drinks come from different regions is not sufficient for keeping two separate articles, especially in the case when these are neighbouring regions, such that one can be sure that these drinks have a common historical origin. As an example, Quark (dairy product) describes different quark versions from Slavic and German-speaking countries. --Off-shell (talk) 12:29, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

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Ayran

It's pretty obvious that Ayran is the far more common name than Doogh. The merge should have been to Ayran instead of to this article. Gune (talk) 01:07, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

the name “Aryan” implies an Iranian/Aryan origin and that’s why the name Doogh is valid vs more modern terminology that it is derived from such as Aryan. The Iranian people have been sedentary for a significant portion of ancient history and that’s why we accept the Iranian origin from my personal understanding. Could you provide a reliable source stating otherwise? If not, doesn’t make complete sense to use Aryan just bc it is more common as readers should understand the supposed origin of drinks, which in this case, looks like Greater Iran. Thanks and kind regards

Jamaas9 (talk) 22:48, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

if this drink is formerly a Turkic invention, then do think the title change is something we can figure out by consensus at least imho. Sorry for the previous statement, and let me know if anyone feels similarly to the first talk post. Thank you and kind regards. Jamaas9 (talk) 00:33, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Ancient Persia === Modern Iran (exclusively)

@LouisAragon: Hi, LouisAragon, hope you have been well. Will not revert your edits even though your edit summary doesn't address what I said correctly. Could you please source that doogh came from modern Iran as this the source doesn't say that. Your analysis implies that every cuisine that Iranian nationals eat as native cuisine must have been originally from modern borders of present-day Iran. Using your logic, I could say that a book written about Central Asian history, by definition, makes everything about it exclusively belonging to only Central Asia -- even if there is an indication that this may not be fully the case. My edits implies that it could come from anywhere in Greater Iran due to our shared native Persian heritage, which by definition of "heritage", may include shared native cuisine. We have to write neutrally if we are not sure. Are you 100% (or something close to that effect) sure this must have come from present-day Iran's borders? If so, please provide me a very credible link from a food historian so I may understand our heritage more. Furthermore, do you have clear evidence this food item didn't come from another modern Persian ethnic group such as Tajiks or Tats or even other non-Persian modern and ancient Iranians ethnic groups?

Otherwise, could you provide evidence that everytime a person uses "Ancient Persia" they mean modern Iranian borders vis-a-vis exclusively? I believe that this is technically a POV issue among other thing and at least one that needs a solid citation if I may be able to express my humble opinion to you. Thank you Jamaas9 (talk) 01:09, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Hi Jamaas9, let me please underline some points. You said to LouisAragon "Could you please source that doogh came from modern Iran", the answer is yes, doogh is an Iranian drink, check this : [1], i quote from the first line of the abstract "Doogh, an Iranian drinking yoghurt type, is a fermented dairy beverage and constitutes an important part of daily beverage consumption in Iran". You also say "could you provide evidence that everytime a person"Ancient Persia" they mean modern Iranian borders", please check this : [2], i quote from the first paragraph : "Persia, historic region of southwestern Asia associated with the area that is now modern Iran.". Please do not remove it again from the article. Regards.---Wikaviani (talk) 02:43, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

@Wikaviani: Is this certain that we mean “Iranian” as in modern-day Iran nationality with people who have citizenship or people are ethnically Iranian? That’s my whole point — right now, it seems that “Iranian” can mean exclusively modern-day Iran (again, POV unless defined or it relates to things invented during modern nation-state Iran’s era. This should be very clear as we can’t say “Ancient Persia” in its entirety is just modern Iran when talking about historical concepts. If this was something modern — that’s fair and legitimate for a variety of reasons. Right now, this still constitutes original research unless you can show that this word “ancient Persia” in this context means modern Iran geographically? We are combining historical and modern concepts (which are different and not done anywhere on WP else like the Rumi page).

We all know that “Persia” corresponds to the historical region of Pars, but it constitutes a POV (unless proven) to state that this now somehow means native to that specific region of historical Greater Persia/Greater Iran because we know by common logic that not everything “Persian” or “Iranian” or even from “Persia” constitutes modern Iran and especially historical Pars. I have seen “Persia” being used for parts of modern-Afghanistan so by just pure logic how can something correspond to both exclusively to modern Iran but then the meaning switches to extend beyond the borders? Again, if this food item is sourced within modern day Iran borders — great! The article just says “Iranian” and given that this a documented drink from ancient times — it does not mean modern day Iran necessarily unless proven geographically (or if it is proven that inventor was genetically native to present-day Iran’s borders. Have never seen/heard of the inventor of doogh so can imagine that proving the inventor was “Iranian” as understood by the modern borders might prove nearly impossible.

This faulty logic, if extended, could mean that Rumi as a “Tajik” or “Iranian” is from Iran if someone just cites a paper saying he is of “Iranian” origin. I am also from Iranian origin too — but it would unethical and misleading to say I am from modern Iran. I am not and many Iranian things are not native to modern Iran and we both know this. Let’s please work together amicably — I really just want to say the truth. If you can honestly prove that this ancient drink was made in ancient times in what geographically corresponds to modern Iran - go ahead, I wish that this as easy and simple as that. It’s not, and the modern Persian ethnicities are split formerly to three (even if personal POVs think otherwise)

If we can’t say it, then why are you promoting that we insinuate that it is as that could be misleading (among other things). Again, I know some of us didn’t get to the best start but this project is not about winning - it’s about just stating reality. Please let me know what you think as I feel that I am being taken the wrong way. Thanks and kind regards Jamaas9 (talk) 03:06, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Well, the source says "Persia" and i provided a source (Encyclopedia Britannica) who states that Persia is associated with modern Iran, therefore, i think this case is closed. Best regards.---Wikaviani (talk) 22:57, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

@Wikaviani: Thanks for your response. Again, respectfully, you literally failed to prove that it came from modern Iran which was my entire point and it previously stated that origin was either modern Iran (“Iran”, not Historical Iran/Greater Iran/etc) or Turkey which is not fair for others Central Asians. Hopefully we could incorpate that perspective more as both are essentially very similar people broadly speaking and we share much of the same cultural items/people/values/history etc. Furthermore, this convo should highlight our own bias in re: Iranian people as this drink is mistakened for “Iranian” too often which isn’t fair for Türkic people at all.

My suggestion would have been Greater Iran as that includes part of Central Asia and is more inclusive language given the historical nature of this page. Fortunately, for both of us, that issue was fixed by another unsigned editor anyway in the meantime. So this case is respectfully closed for me too unless another editor has qualms re: Ancient Persia === modern Iran in the actual

article (personally, the article now is balanced enough that it is implictly understood that this is referring to modern day culture of Iranians nationals imho.) Kind regards and thank you for your time. Thanks and kind regards. Jamaas9 (talk) 23:22, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Your answer looks like WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT to me. The source states "Persia" and i provided a source saying that Persia is associated with modern Iran (from Encyclopedia Britanniaca), who "failed to prove that it came from modern Iran" ? The fact that you think it's a misleading statement is obviously an irrelevant argument here since your opinion goes against what the sources say. Best regards.---Wikaviani (talk) 23:43, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

no, it’s not that I didn’t like it. Please listen to me. The origin previously stated “Iran and Turkey” which with the (modern-Iran) makes it explicit it must have come from modern Iran imho and not the historical region. It would have been better to have made that point very explicit in my First revert, or simply added “Central Asia” to the origin list like someone else did. My bad for not being clear. So take responsibility for not being very clear but thought this would have been an obvious issue for other editors to have both the origin as “Iran” and then explicitly define ancient Persia as just modern Iran. The current version no longer has that problem, hence, why I agree with you. Do you disagree with that analysis? If needed, I can bring other editors to see if my analysis makes sense as that is misleading imho. Thanks and kind regards Jamaas9 (talk) 23:48, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

You can bring as many editors you want, per WP:VOTE this won't help. Facts are clear and sourced as i told you above. The source speaks about ancient Persia for the origin of doogh (or at least, it says it was a popular drink in ancient Persia) and i proved with a reliable source that ancient Persia = modern Iran. Do you really think that Persia means Afghanistan ? or Tajikistan ?? This is obviously not the case, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Irak, Turkmenistan and many other countries around Iran were parts of the successive Persian/Iranian empires nothing more, nothing less, this would be POV pushing to try desperately to make our readers think that doogh could be, for examples, a Tajik or Afghan invention. Done here. Regards.---Wikaviani (talk) 00:04, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

I am not pushing anything by definition if it was an Afghan or Tajik invention from a thousand years ago — it would still be considered “Iranian” or even “Persian” by many western definition. Again, the idea that ancient Persia in this sense means exclusively present-day Iran is still lacking. You proved with reliable sources that “Persia” which is still an acceptable cognate for present-day Iran corresponds to modern Iran, which makes perfect sense. This states “ancient Persia” so going by the timeline, it could easily mean historical Khorasan which more likely given the Central Asian roots anyway. Not here to fight you re: the modern terminology nor do I feel like this convo is going anywhere as my statements simply point out that stating origin: “Iran, Turkey” + defining it as just exclusively modern day Iran doesn’t seem logical to me given the supposed Centeal Asian roots as neither of those countries in Central Asia proper. Again sorry for the confusion and do think the current article is acceptable. Thank you Jamaas9 (talk) 00:30, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Actually the confusion is on your part. Your edit removed (modern day Iran) from:

• "According to Shirin Simmons, doogh has long been a popular drink and was consumed in ancient Persia (modern-day Iran)."
  

This sentence makes no comment as to the origin of this drink. Your comment:

• "Are you 100% (or something close to that effect) sure this must have come from present-day Iran's borders? If so, please provide me a very credible link from a food historian so I may understand our heritage more. Furthermore, do you have clear evidence this food item didn't come from another modern Persian ethnic group such as Tajiks or Tats or even other non-Persian modern and ancient Iranians ethnic groups?"

and,

• "The origin previously stated “Iran and Turkey” which with the (modern-Iran) makes it explicit it must have come from modern Iran imho and not the historical region. It would have been better to have made that point very explicit in my First revert, or simply added “Central Asia” to the origin list like someone else did. My bad for not being clear. So take responsibility for not being very clear but thought this would have been an obvious issue for other editors to have both the origin as “Iran” and then explicitly define ancient Persia as just modern Iran."

The underlined sentence, clearly indicates you think, erroneously, that the sentence means the drink originated in ancient Persia. The sentence makes no pretensions of any kind regarding origin.

The bolded sentence, indicates you are still under the erroneously thinking that the sentence states, "doogh is of Iranian origin", and now are tossing out your own POV stating that Tajiks or Tats may have created the drink.

So, yes Wikaviani is correct. Your edit was to remove "(modern-day Iran), because you are so wrapped up in your own POV pushing nonsense that you could not even read the sentence correctly! --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:00, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

respectfully, you are misinterpreting what I am saying and will get back to you when I feel better. Am pretty sure you will find my perspective at least somewhat reasonable or at least a valid point to make this more accurate + objective. Sorry for the confusion, but my next statement will make it vividly clear what I meant. Also dont think Tajiks + Tats created the drink, but will admit I was genuinely confused because lack of clarity of an earlier edition from this article. Thank you for understanding and for your patience. Jamaas9 (talk) 02:16, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

No, I am not "misinterpreting" what you are saying.

• ".....previously the origin was restricted to “Iran” and later it was defined that Ancient Persia was just “modern-day Iran” which is very misleading for all readers, including me.."

You removed something you did not like and now are trying to talk your way out of it.

Answer my questions,

• 1. what did removing "(modern-day Iran)" have to do with where the drink originated?
• 2. what did the sentence, which you edited, have anything to do with where the drink originated or who created it? --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:26, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

I am not trying to “talk my way out of it” and have already apologized and accepted some blame; however, total blame is not warranted until you hear me out. I actually don’t care about saying modern Iran at all and do agree that in hindsight another edit would have been the better path. Apologies again, however, you do need to hear me out given this engagement and what was said between all three of us. am again very sorry for this confusion. I will of course give you an full answer, and again hope that you will find my reasoning acceptable. Again, I apologize and will respond (hopefully) within 48 hours as I do have a documented significant illness (which if needed, will confirm with WP’s corporate team — thanks). The illness impacts my ability to eat and function so I ask for your sincere patience. If you read my illness on WP, you will understand my delay. Thank you. Jamaas9 (talk) 03:15, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Merge with Ayran

Seemingly the same thing. We should either merge these, or create separate articles for the two remaining most popular types of the drink (Doogh and Tan). Personally, I think we should do the latter, as the drinks are quite different from one another. Openlydialectic (talk) 13:18, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Er, they are the same thing, with just different names, like Pacha/Khash and other 'ethnic' foods and drinks, despite the subtle difference in flavours and ingredients. We have Coca Cola Blue - Should articles for those too? Of course not. --User:Meganesia (talk) 05:45, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

classification of beverage

Doogh can be carbonated or non-carbonated. This beverage is also classified as being part of multiple cuisines such as Iranian. --207.233.110.67 (talk) 19:03, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Undiscussed merging under Doogh

@Johnuniq:@Barkeep49:@Princeofpersia187:@Lithopsian: It seems the consensus to merge the articles Ayran and Doogh is at least a few years old, and the result to merge it under the name Doogh is nowhere to be seen.

A quick Google search gives about 7,840,000 hits for "Ayran", while "Doogh" only gives 267,000. A blatantly clear case per Wikipedia:Article titles. The number of Wikilinks of each article to their corresponding language versions also is in clear favor of Ayran. Someone just arbitrarily moved Ayran to Doogh at some point (without consensus), while it should be clearly the other way round. If there is no well-founded objection I will move the content of Doogh to Ayran. Kind regards. Akocsg (talk) 01:14, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

My involvement was merely procedural - a duplicate article was made and that shouldn't be. Doing a little digging it looks like this provides some trail of the backstory here. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:32, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Google hits are not a decider for article titles—arguments need to be based on WP:Article titles and should address issues raised in previous discussions. The procedures for resolving disagreements over a title are at WP:Requested moves. That is separate from the fact that content forks are unacceptable, as are copyright violations (unattributed copy/paste from one article into another). If the issue is not quite right for a requested move discussion, an RfC will be required with a brief and neutral question. Johnuniq (talk) 02:08, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

@Johnuniq:@Barkeep49: Here a consensus was reached to merge it under Ayran, and not the other way around. Akocsg (talk) 04:57, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Comparing Google hits while using only the Latin script search is quite dishonest; searching "Ayran" brings up Turkish and English language results, while searching "Doogh" only brings up English language results (and with an inconsistent spelling too, in Latin form it can be spelled "dugh" or "dough" as well). Typing دوغ into Google brings an additional 6.26 million hits; meaning its quite comparable with the hits for Ayran. -- Qahramani44 (talk) 02:12, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Again, I'm here purely because of a technicality. An attempted move/merge was done badly and reverted (by several editors, including me). I have no opinion (and less knowledge) about the content. The history of these articles is a minefield, and I would caution any editor against cherry-picking particular discussions, decisions, or edits as being the "one and only truth". There was a formal merge discussion in 2013, as mentioned, but it was never implemented. In March 2016, another abortive attempt to merge. In December 2016, there was another attempted merge and a mini edit-war, with some discussion. In March 2018, it was redirected to Doogh "after merge", and reinstated in April 2018. Then, in January 2019, Aryan was redirected here on the premise of "100% fork, after March 2018 merge". Then in May, the current edit warring began. I wouldn't want to take any decisions on the basis of what went before. Lithopsian (talk) 13:26, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 17 August 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. The nominator has not substantiated their primary topic argument. I also note that this is not the place to re-hash old discussions, especially ones that are five years old. I recommend a more thorough discussion should take place here about the contents of the article, and whether there are enough differences to warrant two separate articles, or whether this article should be altered. (closed by non-admin page mover) Steven Crossin ^{Help resolve disputes!} 03:01, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

---

Doogh → Ayran – WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT; Ayran is the more common and primary name for the product. There was never a consensus to merge it under "Doogh". It was done so arbitrarily without discussion. Here another user taking an older discussion as reference mentioned that is was meant to be merged under Ayran.

Here a consensus was reached to merge it under Ayran, and not the other way around. Akocsg (talk) 04:54, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose comparing Google hits is not the best way to find out the best title for an article. Even so, if we search "Doogh" in Persian and list all the results in Persian and English together, we obtain a comparable number of results for each one. I would add that in Turkey, Ayran is not commercialzed with garlic or shallot added in it, while in Iran, several varieties of Doogh can be found, some containing garlic or shallot.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 13:48, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

@Wikaviani: So are you for seperate articles? I'm not sure if both drinks are even the same, the users in the consensus I cited above supported it. Though the merger was to be under Ayran. So this either must be moeved there, or the articles stay apart and the content of each article should be made distinct accordingly. I am for distinct articles, if there are such differences as you say. And concerning the Google hits, in English Ayran is the more common name. The alternative spellings don't change that. For Turkish (or other languages) the alternative spelling "Airan" could also be added, which gives a higher number of hits overall alongside "Ayran". The original consensus was to merge under Ayran anyway, so it either moves there, or the articles become distinct (if the drinks are). Akocsg (talk) 14:11, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

I think separate artices could be a good deal, since as i said, there is only one kind of Ayran in Turkey while there are several varieties in Iran. However, if there was to be only one article, then Doogh sounds legit since the Ayran drink that exists in Turkey is a variety of Doogh.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 14:26, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

If there is no significant difference between "Doogh" and "Ayran" (other than, perhaps, what language people are likely to be speaking while they drink it or what country is producing it), then we should not treat these as different topics and should not have separate articles about the two names for the drink. Minor variations, such as whether some versions contain garlic or shallots, can be treated within the same article. —BarrelProof (talk) 06:09, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose This seems like another attempt at pov-pushing by Akocsg. I'd say it was a huge mistake to merge the two articles, now this article is gonna get constantly disrupted. Therefor I support a split of the article into Doogh and Ayran. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:21, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

I would suggest you keep your accusations for yourself, since taking a former consensus as reference is not POV in any way. That's what should have been done in the first place. I also support the split. The Ayran part of the Doogh article should be transferred to Ayran, and the content concerning Doogh in the Ayran article should be moved to Doogh. I will do that if nobody has objections. Akocsg (talk) 18:22, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Recent addition of 12 pictures of Ayran

@Cengizsogutlu: Please explain here how the addition of 12 pictures of Ayran in this article is relevant. Thanks.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 13:25, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

First of all thank you for wanting to talk to me. The reason that I put the images for giving extra information like ayran taşı churning stone I thought most people wouldn't understand if I could explain this in only text. Secondly there was a drink that manipulated the subject Armenian style Doogh tan next to Turkish subject, if you are not malicious putting a drink because it looks like to Turkish sytle doogh something nonsensical. It gives me a reason and cause to add pictures. Oky i agree i add many pictures, I realize that I am exaggerating images. I will delete some, however i think some should stay such us ( see my last edit )churning stone, Ayran Jug Traditional ayran copper cup's and a modern packed ayran. Imagine you bought a ayran from kebab shop and you are interested. Searched on google came to this page huh there is a picture of Armenian Doogh it looks like milk bottle. I wanted to put a picture of a Turkish style Ayran pack that sold in daily fast food resto's. Isn't it strange for you also putting a Armenian Doogh in huge milk bottle next to Turkish sytle? Its like putting Doner Kebab picture next to hamburger yeah you know what it looks like same its also kinda hamburger I just laugh at that, man. Anyway, how about doing it so i delete 80% putting only ayranin a package we're always used to seeing in kebab shops, a tradional copper cup and churning stone what do you think about this version? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cengizsogutlu (talk • contribs) 13:45, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

I barely understood a word of this. What is your point? I feel like there's too much unnecessary stuff in your text. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:29, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Same goes for me, don't get what the point of this WP:TLDR speech is exactly. Also, i suggest you read WP:INDENT and desist from personal attacks based on the nationality or ethnicity of fellow wikipedians you are working with.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 18:17, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Congratulations, You play the sneaky and stupid role very well. I bet that you guys understand very well what I mean. Dont act like i dont get a word i live in Belgium i have dozens of Farsi friends your language your language is more suitable to understand what I am telling with broken English. Did i do an insult?Nationality or ethnicity? You cannot bear two pictures. You are trying to prove that you are right in your own world with wiki experience.. I simply asked and said why there is another cultures drink phototo next to Turkish version of this drink, I added 3 photos instead of i add 10+. I'm simply saying again I ADD 3 PICTURES NEXT TO TURKISH AYRAN INSTEAD OF OTHER CULTURES DRINK WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT? in my opinion its manipulating article putting other cultures version next to it what is your purpose deleting my little edit guys. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cengizsogutlu (talk • contribs) 18:29, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Well, you need to calm down and stay cool. Let me be clear, nobody cares about your Persian dudes, this is an encyclopedia and we need to collaborate, this means that we should not attack other users by playing an ethnic card and we should not say they are playing a sneaky and stupid role either. I have no problem with adding one picture or two of Ayran to this article, but you need to get that this article is about an Iranian drink, and there is already a whole section about "Turkish national status", therefore we should not bombard this article with Ayran pictures. I hope that you can understand my concerns, that are not based on ethnic bias but with the quality and neutrality of this article. Best.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 18:49, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Okey i agree also mention that i delete 90% its not enough can we add 'SINGLE' picture about ayran? for ex let me add single ayran picture then,so at least one photo about subject can seen. Can you also tell me why there is a photo of Armenian sytle of Doogh next to ayran. I have nothing against Armenians buts its so absurd. Its like for example putting a church photo meaning mosques are like churches you know what no need for mosque photo.. I want this in a civilized way, most likely you hate Turks oky whatever everyone's own life can you add a single picture of Ayran or i will add one ? before finishing what did I insult this time? maybe the lactose ratio of ayran :D? About iranian drink Wouldn't it be nice if we had to separate this page for ex Ayran for hes own page Doogh to another? Some claims persian drink some claim from Hunnic practically its just watery Yogurt drink.