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Republic of Ireland article name

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I am reading this page with mild wonder and amusement. Are people really voting over if we should use the official name of "Ireland" or the unofficial name of "Republic of Ireland"? Is it a limitation of Wikipedia to fix this? I don't understand the reasoning why people would not want the official and factual name. Just to add the wiki article "Ireland" actually says "Geopolitically, Ireland is divided between the Republic of Ireland (officially named Ireland)". It can't even use the correct term but acknowledges it is using the wrong term. Dark archeus (talk) 04:01, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also from an official source: https://www.dfa.ie/irish-embassy/italy/our-role/about-ireland/

> The Constitution of Ireland of 1937, provides that Ireland (or Éire in Irish) is the official name of the State and following the enactment of the Republic of Ireland Act of 1948, in 1949, Ireland became a Republic.

"Republic of Ireland" is the act that declared "Ireland" the official name. Dark archeus (talk) 04:06, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If you want a good read, look at Archives 6 through 34 (links at the top of the page). This has been discussed on and off since 2002 (since 2009 on this page) None of your arguments are new. The limitation on Wikipedia is that one title can only be used for one article. Longstanding consensus, arising out of those many, many discussions, is that it should be for the island. And by the way, the Republic of Ireland Act 1948 was the act that stated that "Republic of Ireland" could be used; it did not declare "Ireland" the official name. Scolaire (talk) 10:38, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I posted a link to an official source. You posted to a Wikipedia link as your source. The link you posted if you bother to review its source it says that “Ireland” can be referred to as “Republic of Ireland” but it is not renamed to that and it is not it’s official name. Dark archeus —Preceding undated comment added 04:55, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, and thanks for the interest. If you've read the above links, you will see that this topic has been debated for nearly 20 years, and your points have been considered many times. The problem is simple - there can be only one article named Ireland and so that is the island, while the country at least has an official alternative, which even the Irish Government uses (surprisingly often, actually). Republic of Ireland *is* an official alternative (making it so was one of the purposes of the Republic of Ireland Act), and so here we are. Many (I'd guess most) of us involved in the debate are Irish, and we care about the result, and we have stopped with the best combination we can find. SeoR (talk) 08:05, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well put. Laurel Lodged (talk) 09:54, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Also wholeheartedly agree with SeoR's summary. The outcome, summarised under the WP:IRE-IRL guideline, represents a longstanding consensus compromise that the island is best located at "Ireland" and the state at "Republic of Ireland". As both titles reflect natural language. And the DAB terms used in natural and official language. Whereas the alternatives, like Ireland (island) and/or Ireland (state), represent neither. Is it perfect? No. Is it well-considered and based in reality? Yes. (Separately, and while I applaud SeoR for not rising to it, the suggestion that any of the editors here have "not bothered to review" the facts or the acts or the constitution, is misguided in the extreme.) Guliolopez (talk) 11:00, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I previously had thought to rename Republic of Ireland to Ireland (country), Ireland to Ireland (island), and Ireland (disambiguation) to Ireland—in order to match the naming conventions found at Jammu and Kashmir (disambiguation). Now, I decided to hold the renaming of Republic of Ireland, and instead planned to rename Ireland to Ireland (island) and Ireland (disambiguation) to Ireland. It should be noted that I am not a participant of the project, just sharing my thoughts in the Ireland naming conventions, and renaming any of them without a 20-editor discussion will block me permanently due to the violation of the longstanding consensus. @Guliolopez: Any thoughts? --Soumya-8974 talk contribs subpages 13:40, 25 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Soumya-8974. Respectfully I do not know why you are pinging me. Exclusively. There are umpteen other contributors to this WP:IECOLL project and dozens (if not hundreds) of others who have previously contributed to the discussions which resulted in the WP:IRE-IRL consensus outcome. Your proposal is completely at odds with that consensus discussion. I am not sure what it is specifically what you are asking me. But my "thoughts" are that your proposal (to rename any of the Ireland articles without consensus agreement) is ill-advised. Guliolopez (talk) 14:15, 25 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to point out that "Republic of Ireland" as a descriptor has an official status similar to that of "Dominion of Canada." Fortunately, no one feels a need to impose that title on our Wikipedia article, since many Canadians would deeply dislike it, despite its official status. Our official name is simply "Canada." I appreciate the pain that some Irish people feel over the use of "Republic of Ireland," and I would like to ask why Samoa is treated differently. Wikipedia respects Samoa's decision to call itself "Samoa," despite it lying right next to another jurisdiction called American Samoa in an archipelago also called Samoa. The Samoan Islands page was created in 2004, after Western Samoa's name change to Samoa. Parallel treatment would suggest "Ireland" and "Island of Ireland." Waering (talk) 07:19, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The current state of Ireland, aka the Republic of Ireland, is not the primary meaning of the word "Ireland", because it's only existed since the 1940s, and Ireland has a longer history than that. There is a lot more more to the topic of "Ireland" than the current republic and the geography of the island. I just searched "Ireland" on Amazon, and of the first page of results, only a couple of them could even be argued to be about the modern republic.
Also, anyone who talks about people feeling "pain" about the use of a term that is specifically provided for in Irish consititutional law is being absurdly melodramatic at best, and engaging in emotional blackmail at worst. --Nicknack009 (talk) 07:53, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Merge "Ireland" with "Geography of Ireland", Ireland_(disambiguation) -> Ireland discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Apologies if I'm putting this is the wrong place but I joined just to post on the rather odd situation here that a geography page takes up the name of a country. This goes against every other Wikipedia article I can find and don't need any logic in it. Could someone explain why this proposal to move is not inline with norms on Wikipedia and in real life? Below are some pages and where they link to

China -> The country of China Cyprus -> The country of Cyprus Australia -> The country of Australia Geography of Cyprus -> about the geography Geography of China -> about the geography Macedonia (region) -> about the geography Australia (continent) -> about the geography Palestine_(region) -> about the geography AlbaniaAndorraArmeniaAustriaAzerbaijanBelarusBelgiumBosnia and HerzegovinaBulgariaCroatiaCyprusCzech RepublicDenmarkEstoniaFinlandFranceGeorgiaGermanyGreeceHungaryIcelandIrelandItalyKazakhstanLatviaLiechtensteinLithuaniaLuxembourgMaltaMoldovaMonacoMontenegroNetherlandsNorth MacedoniaNorwayPolandPortugalRomaniaRussiaSan MarinoSerbiaSlovakiaSloveniaSpainSwedenSwitzerlandTurkeyUkraineUnited KingdomVatican City all point to 'Geography of XXX' except for Ireland. I'm sure it's the same for non European pages too.

It seems very contentious that Ireland does not have the same clarification as a geographic entity especially given that name is more commonly used to refer to the country than the island. Along with the dozens of government and international bodies stating that Ireland should be used for the country and with all the examples of Wikipedia above can I reopen the discussion of the titles so that we don't need to use an archaic outlier? Other than a few small ones, the only major discussion I can see was over ten years ago and I couldn't see this being mentioned then. And other than people voting for it then, is there any reason to go against all of the other geographical articles and common use in real life? Sorry for my bad formatting. But I'm very interested in this topic and would like to go through the right channels. For the record I only wish to discuss the geography article, not the country one. Altköllner (talk) 20:36, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

given that name is more commonly used to refer to the country than the island I'd like evidence for that claim please. What was Ireland before the 26-county state came into existence? A country by any chance? FDW777 (talk) 20:39, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Could the same not be said of any island nation? Which is why I pointed to Cyprus and Australia as obvious comparisons. I did a google search and of the first non Wiki results 85% of Ireland's referred to the nation, 10% to the island (travel) and 5% used island of Ireland. Is it possible to see which article between Ireland (geography) and Ireland (country) has the most links? However, there's no point getting side track on this too much as while it benefits my argument, my main point is that 99% of geography articles follow a different process and still don't see why Ireland is different. Do you have anything to say about my other points on consisteny between geography articles?Altköllner (talk) 21:11, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ireland is not about the "Geography of Ireland". This is easily established by the fact Geography of Ireland already exists, and is in fact a featured article. FDW777 (talk) 21:23, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

−

Indeed, apologies if I gave the wrong impression of using the word move. I believe merge is the right term to use from what I read around me and have adjust the title of this section accordingly. Every other example still uses a disambiguation page or clarifier next to a name. Given the redundancy there are so many articles saying the same thing making the current Ireland page even more misleading. Do you have any other comments on my other points?Altköllner (talk) 21:45, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)

WP:Google is not a source in of itself that can be reliably used. Also what about other islands such as Great Britain?
Also geography isn't even the predominant focus of the article so your suggestion would be very misleading.
You would also be screwing up the agreed format for people born on the island pre-Partition whereby they are listed as being from simply Ireland. Obviously they should be linked to what state it was part of at the time referenced as other articles would but you try to sell that to the Irish brigade here.
Then again if I wanted to go to an article about the geography of Ireland I would just go to the Geography of Ireland article. Mabuska (talk) 21:31, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Are there any other sources of truth of which is more regularly? What about Wikipedia and the number of links? What about other sources which use Ireland for the country? Are there any that use Ireland for the geographical island other than Wikipedia? I don't know the details about your other point, but someone wrote above that the practice is not to link to Ireland but just say Ireland, so that's not an issue.

I want to stick to the point that the logic of the Ireland page doesn't make any sense given that 99% of other similar articles use a different structure. And given common usage on top (As far as anyone else here seems to be able to proove) also backs the point that the article is redundant and should be cleaned in line with other articles like in the many examples given above. Altköllner (talk) 21:58, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You don't seem to be recognising all the points made in response or issues associated, which clearly show why your proposal is a non starter. Also Ireland is linked too in those articles I referred to, whether they are meant to be or not.
Pick up any Irish history book dealing with dawn of time to pre-Partition and they will all use Ireland in a geographical AND geopolitical sense. There are literally countless Irish historical books going back at least 2 centuries were they simply use Ireland in that sense. Shall we disregard all that?
When referring to the British Isles many publications and sources instead refer to Great Britain and Ireland instead because of the supposed political connotations of "British". They don't state geographical Ireland or island of Ireland in such titles but it's clear enough it means the island as Northern Ireland is not in GB.
You would need a better argument to back up your idea but there are too many obstacles for it. Also whilst consistency is desirable in articles, it is not a rule in if itself and things can be different depending on the WikiProjects involved who can derive their an agreed format as they have done here. Mabuska (talk) 23:49, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WP:DERRY

There is a discussion at Talk:County Londonderry#Requested move 28 September 2020 proposing to move the county to County Derry which would go against the longstanding rule on Wikipedia. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:55, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 22 March 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. WP:SNOW closure. (closed by non-admin page mover) Calidum 14:27, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]


Republic of Ireland → Ireland (country) – "Ireland" in indistinguishably the common name of this political entity. However, calling it the "Republic of Ireland" as if it were a proper name is misleading; Republic of Ireland it is not the official name of the country in any capacity (Ireland and Éire are). The proposed title is easily recognizable by any English speaker vaguely familiar with Ireland, unambiguously identifies the article subject as distinct from other subjects, and is concise. Notably, improves on the WP:CRITERIA of naturalness (most people will simply search for "Ireland"), while also implementing parenthetical disambiguation in line with WP:TITLEDAB. — Mhawk10 (talk) 14:50, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hiya. In terms of not being convinced, that's grand. It's not my intent or obligation to convince anyone. As you know, this thread you opened (as with the many dozens that preceded it and which you may not have had a chance to fully read through yet) are about building consensus. Not about convincing every contributor. Your own argument, similarly, hasn't convinced me that the longstanding consensus compromise is wrong. Or has since been superseded by real-world events. Like Brexit. Or whatever weak argument was laid-out a while back :) I for one am delighted to contribute to a community where people can disagree - and still effect progress. (In the meantime, and if several dozen of these near-verbatim discussions have taught me anything worth imparting, it's that responding to every other contributors comments will wreck your head :) . Guliolopez (talk) 17:04, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, I think it's fair to raise the discussion every few years as consensus can change. However new arguments would really need to be brought to the table to change the consensus, and I don't see anything new here. Canterbury Tail talk 20:01, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Having the discussion again seems reasonable but indeed per Wikipedia:Consensus doesn't have to change it doesn't seem like any new points are coming up so it seems like WP:SNOW. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:46, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And North Korea and South Korea aren't even in any way remotely close to their names, nor in any way connected, just made up western names. Canterbury Tail talk 14:46, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move: Republic of Ireland → Ireland (country)

As an Irish citizen, I was shocked and surprised to find that the title of the Wikipedia page for my country does not bear the actual name of my country.

I agree that Ireland, the island, pre-dates the establishment of either state on the island and therefore the article "Ireland" should refer to the island. The use of parenthetical disambiguation is a fair, accurate and unbiased solution. Any reference to "The Republic of Ireland Act 1948" in relation to the name of the country is irrelevant, as the act made no reference to the name of the country and the name is clearly defined in the Irish constitution of 1937 and no subsequent amendment has changed the name. https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/cons/en/html#part2

It should also be noted that since the 2009 poll on this topic, Wikipedia has introduced auto suggest in the search field on the homepage. When a user enters the word “Ireland” into the search field the country is not in the list of suggested articles, as it is currently identified by a reference that is obscure to most. Cashew.wheel (talk) 15:42, 16 May 2022 (UTC) (talk) 15:42, 16 May 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cashew.wheel (talk • contribs) 15:39, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As an Irish citizen, I was shocked and surprised to find that the title of the Wikipedia page for my country does not bear the actual name of my country. Why? Most countries aren't at their official name on Wikipedia. Very, very few 'state' articles actually reside at the official name of the state in question - see, e.g.: State of Libya, French Republic, United Mexican States, State of the City of the Vatican, and United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - all doing well at page titles other than the official. "Ireland" is also the name of the island, which doesn't have a natural disambiguator. "Republic of Ireland" is a natural disambiguator for the state and is its official description. This has worked perfectly well both before and after the huge debate of 2009. If you read through that, and the archives of this page, and can still then bring something new to the table, then of course it can be discussed - consensus can change. But if your argument is solely that this isn't the name of the state, that won't serve to change anything. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 15:52, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for pointing me towards the historical discussion on this topic, it made for fascinating, yet disappointing, reading. I would counter that the current naming isn't working, as requests for change are made so frequently, much to the chagrin of mods.
What surprised me (and offends others) is the simple fact that the name of the country is Ireland and that Wikipedia does not reflect that (internationally recognised) fact. Very few other countries actually bother to define their name in their constitution, yet Ireland clearly has, in both Irish and English.
For 85 years, this self-determination has been undermined by anti-Irish elements in an attempt to delegitimise the country, hence many Irish people balk at the forced imposition of the name "Republic Of Ireland". This delegitimisation is further perpetuated across Wikipedia as users link to a description rather than a country ( I know WP:IMOS does have a guideline to use [[Republic of Ireland|Ireland]] when linking, but in practice that is unlikely to happen as many casual editors will just copy the title of the Ireland article).
All of the states you mentioned above have been afforded the respect of redirecting from their official title to their respective articles.
The argument that using "Republic Of Ireland" as the name is weak, as it is akin to using "Sparkling Soft Drink with Vegetable Extracts" in place of Coca-Cola to distinguish it from Pepsi, as both are official descriptions.
In my opinion, parenthetical disambiguation of "Ireland (country)" is a fair, balanced, inoffensive and factual disambiguator for the page. There is precedence in the disambiguation between Georgia_(country) and Georgia_(U.S._state), even with there already being a natural disambiguation as the official title of the US state is "State Of Georgia". Cashew.wheel (talk) 13:01, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The most persuasive of your arguments is the one regarding the search field in the opening comment, but here you undermine your own position by posting an absurd and unsubstantiated rant in your third paragraph that reveals more about your own prejudices and bias than other people's and writing logically incoherent nonsense in the fifth and sixth paragraphs. Coca-Cola and Pepsi Cola are disambiguated and cola covers both. No article is at Sparkling Soft Drink with Vegetable Extracts. Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland are disambiguated and Ireland covers both. No article is at Island in the Atlantic Ocean to the west of Great Britain. Georgia is a state. DrKay (talk) 14:30, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The clearest examples of attempts to undermine the constitutional name of Ireland are by the British government in both the Eire Act 1938[1] and the Ireland Act 1949[2], neither of which acknowledged the name of Ireland. These choices were politically motivated as there was still a degree of animosity between the newly independent Ireland and the former empire at the time. This position has subsequently changed[3].
@DrKay As for the Coke/Pespi example, just like your "Island in the Atlantic Ocean" example, it is absurd and was made to highlight how irrespective of how official a description is, it is not the name.
That aside, it would be good to discuss the negative impact the page title has on the discoverability/usability in the search field. Cashew.wheel (talk) 16:53, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Eire (Confirmation of Agreements) Act, 1938".
  2. ^ "Ireland Act 1949".
  3. ^ "Country names: The Permanent Committee on Geographical Names for British official use".

The work that editors and moderators do on Wikipedia is fantastic and I appreciate it very much. I'm sure many are jaded by this topic rearing it's head so frequently and are reluctant to entertain a change to the status quo. Thirteen years have past since the last major debate over the naming of the articles, yet the issue keeps coming up as many see it as factually incorrect and it can no longer be dismissed as recently established consensus. Building a consensus is obviously the only way a change can be made here. May I ask, who determines that consensus has changed? Cashew.wheel (talk) 21:29, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The community. As you can see in the archives here the subject has come up many times. No new information seems to be raised in the conversations and they always (to date) end with the same consensus. There was even an attempt on this very page in the section immediately above, where the proposal was completely shot down. Now WP:CONSENSUSCANCHANGE but it also doesn't have to change. I have zero issues with people re-opening the conversation and trying to alter or establish a new consensus, just as long as it isn't continuously happening. Canterbury Tail talk 21:34, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I did see that it was recently discussed but the topic had been closed so was unable to reply within context.
As a relatively inexperienced contributor to Wikipedia (historically only making small additions), this WikiProject is quite an obscure corner of the platform that many users do not know about, but is a great way to discuss and gain agreement for changes.
Coupled with how intimidating it can be to new editors when an admin or moderator dismisses their suggestion, it's no surprise as to why the topic of fixing the title of Ireland is destined to always be classified as WP:SNOW.
Might I suggest that, given the frequency of contributions on this matter, a topic be left permanently open for discussion? Cashew.wheel (talk) 17:51, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Cashew.wheel: You seem to be under a number of misconceptions here. 1) There is no position of "moderator" on Wikipedia, so requests for change are made so frequently, much to the chagrin of mods, for example, makes no sense. 2) There is a position of administrator, but nobody has taken any admin action in the discussions here or at Talk:Ireland or Talk:Republic of Ireland. All that has happened is that other users like yourself have put forward their views, countering your arguments – not dismissing them. 3) Discussions like the three above end up as WP:SNOW because a great majority of those who take the trouble to !vote are opposed to any move (8–1 in the most recent move request), not because "new editors" are "intimidated" against !voting. 4) The topic is left permanently open for discussion; otherwise we wouldn't be discussing it now. An individual thread is closed when there has been no additions for a reasonable amount of time, as was the case in the three threads above. Not a misapprehension as such, but I completely disagree that the name "Ireland" has been undermined by anti-Irish elements in an attempt to delegitimise the country, that ROI is imposed by force (by whom?), that many Irish people "balk" at it, or indeed that Irish people in general find it offensive in the real world. For this reason, as well as all the reasons given above, I am opposed to any change in the status quo. Scolaire (talk) 14:55, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Scolaire Thanks for clarifying about editors, admins and topics. I am new to discussing edits and as such am unfamiliar with the terminology, process and etiquette (I didn't even know to sign my first comment). I was not accusing anyone of intimidation, just noting that it can be intimidating for new editors to engage on a talk page with more seasoned editors who reply with terms, conventions, history and even markdown that they are unfamiliar with and may be put off from returning to contribute more.
I have found the editor community welcoming and fair when engaging in constructive, albeit repetitive, discussion.
The only case that I know of where the term "Republic Of Ireland" was actually forced on an Irish entity, is the 1953 ruling by FIFA on the name of teams fielded by the Football Association Of Ireland.[1]. Other none-forced cases referred to the refusal of the British government to acknowledge the official name of the country until the late 1990s, the downstream impact that had on reporting by the media and thus the spread of the use of the incorrect name of the country.
We can agree to disagree as to the degree as to proportion of the population that might take offence, it is subjective after all. Cashew.wheel (talk) 17:19, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "FIFA rules on Irish issue".
  • The country's official description is "Republic of Ireland" and as someone in England I'd not even known the country's actual (short) name was just "Ireland" until I came across this debate in 2017. Many countries have official descriptions that aren't in common usage like Republic of France and aren't really ambiguous so we use the official (short) name namely France. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:28, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hijacking of the WikiIreland Project by British Nationalists and Opposition to name-change to 'Ireland' (actual name of country) from 'Republic of Ireland' (description)

Forgive me but its time to finally call this out. But it seems from looking at the history of the wiki contributors who object to having the above change, 99% of them come from a British nationalist persuasion judging by many of their edit history and interactions, and are completely unimpartial in this regard.

I question the validity and feasbility of WikiProject Ireland now as it has clearly been hijacked by British nationalist and Northern Ireland unionist/loyalist editors projecting their political agenda and bias on an encyclopedia, as evidenced by the proposed requested move hiding behind "consensus" (between themselves) and "previous discussions" (agreed amongst themselves) they have become the gate-keepers now of this project and topic. Many Irish editors have simply given up on this project and can't be bothered dealing with this project anymore. This has clearly escaped the attention of the Arbritration Committee who should intervene in this issue and that of the move discussion on 'Ireland'. It seems like some radical Irish republicans and British nationalists have something in common by opposing the usage of the term Ireland also in that regard, leaving all the reasonable people scratching their heads. 51.37.118.212 (talk) 11:52, 29 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

All is forgiven. ooOOOh I do love a good conspiracy theory. Go on then, don't be a tease - give us more juicy facts / examples of hijacking. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:01, 29 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Touched a nerve did I for calling it out? ;) Hardly a conspiracy theory when its so obvious to outside observers who will read and dig through the history and discussion on all this. I think everyone who wants to look can look at editors' like yourself and this project's contribution and talk history, same with the Ireland page, can judge for themselves and agree. At least on wikipedia people can see everything if they want to search. :) 51.37.118.212 (talk) 12:05, 29 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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