Talk:First Crusade

First Crusades

The first crusade was the first series of religous war — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.44.36.51 (talk) 00:47, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

1st crusade date 1066

1066 was a crusade and not a Norman invasion 2A02:C7F:206A:AC00:9491:D956:30B2:FB5 (talk) 10:26, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 November 2022

In the first paragraph of the intro - I suggest changing the line: "The Kingdom of Jerusalem was established as a secular state under the rule of Godfrey of Bouillon" to "The Kingdom of Jerusalem was established as a crusader state under the rule of Godfrey of Bouillon" Or simply remove the word 'secular' without replacing it with 'crusader state'.

The kingdom wasn't secular in any modern sense of the word (i.e neutral to matters of religion) - it was a Catholic kingdom. The Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem - a reference - discusses in some detail the laws and customs of that kingdom and highlights its religious nature. Aral-v (talk) 18:43, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

Done, the intention was clear but really quite misleading. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:51, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Most historians refer to the kingdom as a secular rather than an ecclesiastical state. True, it doesn't meet today's standards, but few things do. The change renders the statement without value. I'm going to revert. Dr. Grampinator (talk) 17:51, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

I am not sure this is strictly true. Most historians note the failure of the papacy to establish a theocracy, but calling this secular is clearly wrong, as @Aral-v points out. As you think that without the word secular the sentence is meaningless, I will delete. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 18:29, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

I think we're trying to hard to fit the 12th century into modern parlance. Here's what Tyerman says: "The capture of Jerusalem, however remarkable a crowning achievement, did not end the expedition, its internal divisions or its military vulnerability. The settlement of secular and ecclesiastical authority within the city and its surrounds resurrected the simmering hostilities between the leaders. On 22 July, Raymond of Toulouse was once more outmanoeuvred. After apparently refusing an offer to accept the crown of Jerusalem, perhaps on clerical prompting, he saw instead his latest chief rival, Godfrey of Bouillon, the only other main leader willing to remain in the east, elected as secular ruler, or Advocate (the title implying ecclesiastical authority)."

The current write-does not reflect this view, which I believe is held by most historians. It is also a critical point that is now lost. I suggest you move it back to the original before Aral-v jumped in. 18:59, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

It's definitely "secular" in the technical sense that it's not governed by the church (although even then there is a distinction between "secular" and "religious" - "secular" really means non-monastic). Adam Bishop (talk) 20:36, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you @Adam Bishop, this sent me back to the OED for the definition of secular and there lies @Aral-v's issue I think. As used previously and in the quote from Tyerman, it was ambiguous and simplified the complex power relationships between the Papacy and secular powers at the time. Riley-Smith described the crusader states as religious colonies and a modern reader is going to be misled if they are described as secular. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 10:37, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Yeah. It's definitely not secular in the way a modern country is. I remember being confused when I first encountered Bernard Hamilton's book about The Latin Church in the Crusader States, subtitled "The Secular Church". How can there be a secular church?! But there's a technical/academic meaning that's not the same as the popular understanding of the word. Adam Bishop (talk) 16:18, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Since all modern historians use the term secular, don't you think we should too? Yes, there is an ambiguity to it, but so what. When you use the term "secular powers", what exactly does that mean? Is "religious colonies" a better term? Colonies of whom? It needs to go back to the way it was. Dr. Grampinator (talk) 18:10, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

"Colonies" is even worse than secular unless we want to present the Prawer Thesis and historiographical debate about colonialism and the crusades (and this article certainly doesn't seem to be the place for that). Adam Bishop (talk) 21:16, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Agree @Adam Bishop, this is not the place to present that. It took me a while and some digging to get my head round the subtitle to Hamilton's book after you mentioned it, but I think I got there in the end. Thank you, I enjoyed that. That probably raises the point that it shouldn't be necessary for a WP reader to have a working knowledge of the subject and do research in order to understand the meaning of a sentence in an article; clarity is important. The sentence in the lead was previously rendered as The Kingdom of Jerusalem was established as a secular state which is not only unsupported in the article as written but difficult to unpick and easy to misunderstand. The quote from Tyerman above does not support this as it refers to Godfrey himself rather than the entity that later became the kingdom of Jerusalem and even then implies he had ecclesiastical authority. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 10:50, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

This is nonsense. The use of the term secular is fully supported by the references. Any reader can understand the difference between secular and ecclesiastical states. If you want to write an article about what that meant in the 12th century, go for it. It is not discussed much by Crusades scholars in texts, maybe in journal articles. The changes need to be reverted. Dr. Grampinator (talk) 17:35, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Firstly, what source says The Kingdom of Jeruslaem was eastablished as a secular state? Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:20, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

I think the point that matters here is what the average reader of Wikipedia would infer from a statement like that. I, as one of those average readers, definitely found it extremely confusing.

@Aral-vIn the future, please make your comments at the end of the chain. Putting comments in the center of a thread makes it difficult to follow. I think most people that would read this article would understand the difference between secular and ecclesiastical. Dr. Grampinator (talk) 22:13, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

The conversation here is enlightening; thank you all for that, but as @Norfolkbigfish points out, it's far-fetched to expect the reader to go through research just to understand what was meant by 'secular' here.

Most people could figure out what secular meant.Dr. Grampinator (talk) 22:13, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Adding that statement is confusing and removing it isn't harmful to understanding the overall topic of the article. Aral-v (talk) 20:13, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

The sentence is a key feature to the early kingdom. Perhaps you can come up with a better sentence. Dr. Grampinator (talk) 22:13, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

At the moment it is unclear why this sentence is considered key. The Franks were deeply religious and the Western Church was deeply embedded in everything they established in the Latin East. Their very raison d'etre was religious. No one would dream of describing other kingdoms of the period as secular, say England or France, and yet Jersusalem was equally as religious if not more so. As @Adam Bishop points out the adjective secular is debatable.

A. adj.

I. Of or pertaining to the world.

1. Ecclesiastical.

a. Of members of the clergy: Living ‘in the world’ and not in monastic seclusion, as distinguished from ‘regular’ and ‘religious’. secular canon: see canon n.2 1. secular abbot: a person not a monk, who had the title and part of the revenues, but not the functions of an abbot.In early use frequently placed after the noun, as canon secular, priest secular.

b. Of or pertaining to secular clergy.

2.

a. Belonging to the world and its affairs as distinguished from the church and religion; civil, lay, temporal. Chiefly used as a negative term, with the meaning non-ecclesiastical, non-religious, or non-sacred. secular arm (= medieval Latin brachium seculare, French le bras séculier): the civil power as ‘invoked’ by the church to punish offenders.

†b. transferred. Of or belonging to the ‘common’ or ‘unlearned’ people. Obsolete.

c. Of literature, history, art (esp. music), hence of writers or artists: Not concerned with or devoted to the service of religion; not sacred; profane. Also of buildings, etc., Not dedicated to religious uses.

d. Of education, instruction; Relating to non-religious subjects. (In modern use often implying the exclusion of religious teaching from education, or from the education provided at the public expense.) Of a school: That gives secular education. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:12, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Reference 111. Dr. Grampinator (talk) 17:11, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Secondly, William of Tyre wrote of Daibert establishing his authority over the seculat leaders: both Duke Godfrey and Prince Bohemond humbly received from his hand, the former the investiture of the kingdom, and the latter that of the pricipality, thus showing honour to him whose vice regent on earth they believed the patriach to be. Barber wrote Godfrey promised Daibert the city of Jerusalem and gave him a quarter of the city and well as a quarter of Jaffa. Godfrey would have viewed his position as God's Gift. the Franks filled and created multiple archbishoprics, and the general view of the time was only the Pope or the Empereror could create kingship. None of this rests easily with the idea that Jerusalem was a secular kingdom. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:03, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

I have re-read my copy of Asbridge's 2012 The Crusades:The War for the Holy Land and nowhere on page 103 does he write that The Kingdom of Jerusalem was established as a secular state. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 18:10, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Policy: Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from reliable secondary sources. Articles may make an analytic, evaluative, interpretive, or synthetic claim only if it has been published by a reliable secondary source. [Like Tyerman, Asbridge, Runciman]

Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so.Dr. Grampinator (talk) 17:11, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

This is the talk section, not particularly necessary to have reliable secondary sources here. But if you try it is fairly easy to find William's comments being quoted or analysed. Try page 56 of Barber, Malcolm (2012). The Crusader States. Yale University Press. ISBN 978-0-300-11312-9. JSTOR j.ctt32bvs5. referring to the Babcock and Krey translation (page 440). Fulcher also mentions this ceremony btw and he was actually there. The church wanted a theocracy or ecclesiastical state and failed to achieve this for a variety of reasons, not least because a warlord was required. That much is true and all academics cover that. But extending that to use the adjective secular for the whole kingdom (which at this point didn't really amount to much) is to much of a stretch both in terms of the time and those of today. I doubt very much whether an academic has, or would, use this phrase and certainly not without qualification. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 18:34, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Are we reading the same book? I found numerous references to the subject in Barber that support my position. Dr. Grampinator (talk) 22:13, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Barber is not a source used in this article Norfolkbigfish (talk) 23:00, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

As I stated above, it is difficult to track multiple conversations when they are interspersed in multiple spots. The term "secular' to describe the kingdom is commonly used by historians and has been used in this article for at least 10 years. The red herrings thrown up are not convincing. You can't claim the the term is inappropriate when your own article Crusading movement uses it multiple times. The references you provided do not support your contention. You cannot provide a single, respected history of the Crusades that does not explicitly or implicitly describe it as such. I'm going to revert it back to the original and I'll be happy to continue to conversation. Dr. Grampinator (talk) 19:41, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

@Dr. Grampinator-sorry but there was no consensus for the revert, the plurality in this thread is that the old version was misleading and you do not have the support of a single editor. I have restored to the improved version on this basis. It would help if you could come up with one academic who describes the kingdom of Jerusalem as secular. You have not. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 23:49, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

We can debate further. I understand the point you are making but it is badly worded in the article to a degree that it is misleading. Rather than edit waring over the word secular it would be much better to explain the context in full. You do not have a single source that matches the sentence as written. You do not have the support of a single editor for the sentence as written. So rewrite to match the souces. Simply put, it is wrong to assert that the kingdom of Jerusalem was secular in the terms of the time, in the terms of the present and in academic opinion. That said it was not a theocracy as the the papacy wanted. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 00:01, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

It is much better to take it to any of the dispute resolution processes available. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 00:05, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

I can find several sources that describe the kingdom as secular. For example Susan Edgington, writing about the events of 1100 in her biography of Baldwin I, says "In the future Jerusalem was to be a secular kingdom." It would be trivially easy to find a dozen more sources calling it secular. Your examples of England and France were absolutely also secular. Even the Papal States were a secular kingdom. But I think we're all sort of talking across each other - obviously it's not secular in the modern sense (where a church has no role in government), but obviously it is secular in the medieval sense. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:37, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you @Adam Bishop, you put it very well. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:36, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Barber in his Crusader States refers to the "secular princes of the West", "relations between the secular and ecclesiastical authorities", Baldwin was the "secular guardian", and generally uses the term 28 times. Pringle wrote a book called "Secular Buildings in the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem". Tyerman refers to "The settlement of secular and ecclesiastical authority." Godfrey was elected "secular ruler." Asbridge writes " the clergy continued to resist the idea that this most sacred of cities might be ruled by a secular king." Finally, Asbridge says: "The First Crusaders had brought Latin rule to the secular and spiritual realm of Jerusalem." How many more examples do I need to provide?Dr. Grampinator (talk) 02:12, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

@Dr. Grampinator In these examples the adjective is applied to authorities, guardian, buildings, authority, ruler, and king but not the kingdom which was the ask. So the answer to your question is one. But that is irrelevent because @Adam Bishop has kindly helped us out by providing an attribution to Edgington (see above). He also highlights that this has largely been a case of cross purposes, that in medieval terms the kingdom was secular, but in modern terms it is not. I am sure the is consensus on all of this. The RFC process can resolve whether this leaves the use of secular in this case within this article is appropriate or not. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:21, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

@Norfolkbigfish It seems like the voting is going against my view, so I would like you to amend the question to also ask: How would you describe the kingdom if not secular? Should the term "secular" be applied at all in medieval history and how? Are you interested in reviewing all articles on medieval history that use the word "secular" and propose revisions? In particular Kingdom of Jerusalem and Crusading Movement. Dr. Grampinator (talk) 15:06, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

That wouldn't be a particularly well contructed RFC. Kingdom of Jerusalem and Crusading Movement do not have the same issue. In fact the the former explains the events far more precisely and without the risk of misunderstanding. It would worth copying the text (with attribution) into this article. It would be an improvement. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 17:41, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

There was still some uncertainty about what to do with the new kingdom. The papal legate Daimbert of Pisa convinced Godfrey to hand over Jerusalem to him as Latin Patriarch, with the intention to set up a theocratic state directly under papal control. According to William of Tyre, Godfrey may have supported Daimbert's efforts, and he agreed to take possession of "one or two other cities and thus enlarge the kingdom" if Daimbert were permitted to rule Jerusalem. Godfrey did indeed increase the boundaries of the kingdom, by capturing Jaffa, Haifa, Tiberias, and other cities, and reducing many others to tributary status. He set the foundations for the system of vassalage in the kingdom, establishing the Principality of Galilee and the County of Jaffa, but his reign was short, and he died of an illness in 1100. His brother Baldwin of Boulogne successfully outmanoeuvred Daimbert and claimed Jerusalem for himself as "King of the Latins of Jerusalem". Daimbert compromised by crowning Baldwin I in Bethlehem rather than Jerusalem, but the path for a monarchy had been laid. Within this framework, a Catholic church hierarchy was established, overtop of the local Eastern Orthodox and Syriac Orthodox authorities, who retained their own hierarchies (the Catholics considered them schismatics and thus illegitimate, and vice versa). Under the Latin Patriarch, there were four suffragan archdioceses and numerous dioceses. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:45, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

@Norfolkbigfish. How can you justify the term "theocratic state" when you so strongly dispute the term "secular state"? Would you regard the Papal states as theocratic or governed by the secular powers of the pope? Dr. Grampinator (talk) 18:07, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Not my words, from Kingdom_of_Jerusalem#First_Crusade_and_the_foundation_of_the_kingdom. Wikitionary defines as Government under the control of a state religion which pretty much nails it in common parlance.OED a touch more wordy A form of government in which God (or a deity) is recognized as the king or immediate ruler, and his laws are taken as the statute-book of the kingdom, these laws being usually administered by a priestly order as his ministers and agents; hence (loosely) a system of government by a sacerdotal order, claiming a divine commission; also, a state so governed: esp. applied to the commonwealth of Israel from the exodus to the election of Saul as king. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 20:17, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

@Norfolkbigfish. You didn't answer my question. The term "secular state" also appears in Wikipedia and yet you've stirred up this hornet's nest against it, despite use by historians. Please provide a reference for the use of "theocratic state" as your claim above about Wikitionary is not the case. Dr. Grampinator (talk) 20:32, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

This started with Semi-protected edit request from @Aral-v who thought a single sentence was misleading. It was not the word secular itself, but its use as an adjective for the kingdom. The RFC below seems to indicate this is the consensual view. The paragraph above is not mine, I suspect it is originally by @Adam Bishop who could probably explain this far more eloquently than I ever could. Alternatively we could repeat the RFC process along the lines of below, say Can Daimbert's plans for Jerusalem be described as a theocratic state in a way that can be understood by a modern reader although I would expect the answer to be Yes in this case. Afterall, and FYI, one of the Wiktionary examples of usage is The Vatican City State is a sovereign city-state and a Christian theocracy ruled by the Pope. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 22:07, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Look up theocracy or secular in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

Norfolkbigfish (talk) 22:18, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Looks like that was me way back in 2006! (Although it has been improved since then.) Adam Bishop (talk) 01:40, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

@Norfolkbigfish. I give up. You're not giving straight answers to simple questions and so I've had enough. Apparently now all terms applied to the Crusades must use modern definitions despite commonplace usage by recognized experts. I hope you're planning to work the description above into the write-up. BTW, the description of Daimbert's plans for Jerusalem above is disputed. Dr. Grampinator (talk) 16:59, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

@Dr. Grampinator, put simply it was suggested that one sentence in this article was confusing and it should be edited (not by me, the suggestion that is). You disagreed and reverted twice despite the consensus being that it was confusing. I don't think I opened this hornet's nest and I am genuinely sorry you think I did. This has been a very WP characteristic exercise. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 18:08, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

@Norfolkbigfish. Not even close to what happened. A user new to Wikipedia was confused about the use of the word "secular" and suggested a change to what was a tautology. You made the change without hesitation and I reverted it as the original was both correct and part of a mature article that has been extensively reviewed. You then continued to edit out "secular" references despite the on-going discussion. The subsequent dialog that included Adam Bishop clearly showed a preference for the original and so I reverted back again. You continually threw up red herrings and put in an RFC where the vote was "no". The current version of the article is worse and the original was easily fixed by pointing to the Medieval sentence in secular or the section in separation of church and state. Dr. Grampinator (talk) 21:12, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

@Dr. Grampinator, with @Adam Bishop's interjections I have learnt a lot about the technical usage of secular. Both interesting and useful, but this debate has grown out of all proportion to its importance. This I regret, and apologise for the irritation I have given you. While the sentence in the lead was technically correct, it wasn't explained clearly along the lines of the consensus achieved in the RFC below and was therefore confusing for some readers. Even though it didn't become an ecclessiatically ruled state as some wanted, the kingdom of of the Latins of Jerusalem was clearly very religious by modern standards, and even arguably by those of the time. There were two other secular references. One, I removed on the basis it seemed to add little information as it stood. Another, I copyedited out as Godfrey assumed power, there was no need for qualification by adjective, there was no other primary power. I think the consensus below is fair. I have no objection to the usage of secular in its commonly understood meaning of areligious at all, and I have no objection to its use in the more technical senses, if those are clearly explained in the text. If used, it just needs that clarification. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:19, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

@Norfolkbigfish,@Adam Bishop. At the risk of keeping this thread going, here's where we stand:

"the sentence in the lead was technically correct". You argued vehemently against this.

"it wasn't explained clearly...and was therefore confusing for some readers". I'm guessing they're even more confusing now.

"I have no objection to the usage of secular in its commonly understood meaning of areligious." This directly contradicts your definition of "secular" in Crusading movement and implies that it should never be applied to the Crusades. Again, this contradicts common use by historians.

The article separation of church and state says it best: "the issue of the separation of church and state during the medieval period centered on monarchs who ruled in the secular sphere but encroached on the Church's rule of the spiritual sphere." Dr. Grampinator (talk) 19:51, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Request for Comment - Can the adjective secular be applied to the Kingdom of Jerusalem?

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

It would seem that consensus was achieved around :@Seraphimblade's view that The average reader, upon seeing that a state is referred to as "secular", will take that in the modern context of there being an effective separation of church and state, which is not true in this case. The unqualified and unexplained use of "secular" results in a high likelihood of misinterpretation. It is therefore better to use articulate fully the church's role in governance. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 15:44, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

---

Can the Kingdom of Jerusalem be described as secular, in a way that can be understood easily by the modern reader? The above debate refers.Norfolkbigfish (talk) 00:45, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

• At the very least not without explanation of what "secular" means in that context. The average reader, upon seeing that a state is referred to as "secular", will take that in the modern context of there being an effective separation of church and state, which is clearly not true in this case. So, rather than using a term very likely to be misunderstood, I think it best to explain in full what the church's role was in governance. But I oppose the unqualified and unexplained use of "secular" due to that high likelihood of misinterpretation. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 01:50, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

@Seraphimblade. Good point. I wasn't aware of the article "separation of church and state" which in fact describes exactly the explanation that you're looking for. The discussion on separation in the Middle Ages states that "the issue of the separation of church and state during the medieval period centered on monarchs who ruled in the secular sphere but encroached on the Church's rule of the spiritual sphere." References can be found there. Dr. Grampinator (talk) 23:23, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

• No. Concur with Seraphimblade for same reasons. The word "secular" meaning "not subject to or bound by religious rule; not belonging to or living in a monastic or other order" or something of that like, is too easily confused with "secular" in terms of its modern usage as being areligious. Ifly6 (talk) 03:46, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
• No @Seraphimblade articulates the rationale perfectly.

Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:30, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

• No per Seraphimblade. Sammy D III (talk) 12:25, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
• Yes, since it should be easy enough to explain what it means, if necessary. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:57, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
• Comment. We are running the risk of dumbing down of Wikipedia, but I will propose an alternative: The Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem formed under secular leadership. I might remind the commenters that words can mean different things throughout history and that they should read the last sentence of the first paragraph of secular. Also, the antonym of ecclesiastical is secular according to Merriam-Webster, so if it's an either-or, it's secular. I do object to a statement made above: "What source says The Kingdom of Jerusalem was established as a secular state?" as it is not a Wikipedia requirement to merely mimic other reference works. I think this is a reasonable approach, but if the collective still objects to the use of secular, I propose that all Crusades-related articles be similarly purged of the term, a radical idea indeed. Dr. Grampinator (talk) 17:57, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
• Further Comment. After some reflection, I thought the applicable paragraph from secular would be helpful: "The Christian doctrine that God exists outside time led medieval Western culture to use secular to indicate separation from specifically religious affairs and involvement in temporal ones." Dr. Grampinator (talk) 18:23, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
• Further Clarification. Somebody made the comment that "At the moment it is unclear why this sentence is considered key." It is not possible to provide full details of every idea in an introductory paragraph, and if it still unclear when you read the section entitled "Establishment of the Kingdom of Jerusalem" then the reader should then try the more detailed article The title of Godfrey of Bouillon. If it's still confusing then why the secular nature of the kingdom is important, then we'll have to address that issue. I would remind the commenters that an article's introductory paragraph will not generally provide full explanations. Dr. Grampinator (talk) 18:23, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

I think you may be over-thinking the lead. "Any reader can understand the difference between secular and ecclesiastical states" and "Most people could figure out what secular meant" is sort of insulting to me. I couldn't. I just think "separation", not some government structure. I would read an article in 2022 and expect it to be written in 2022 English. Especially in the lead. You seem to be making things complicated for no real reason. Discuss it in the body somewhere? Sammy D III (talk) 19:38, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

@Sammy D III. I did not intend to be insulting, but it does sort of look that way. I was responding to an editor that I deal with a lot, and so I'm sorry. The words secular and ecclesiastical are used constantly in Crusader histories and I have never seen them defined in any context. But I do think they are being used correctly in 2022 English, as Wikitionary defines secular as: "Not specifically religious; lay or civil, as opposed to clerical" and ecclesiastical as "Of or pertaining to the church, or clerical." They are regarded as antonyms. When it was founded, some wanted the Kingdom of Jerusalem to be an ecclesiastical state, one run by the patriarch reporting to the pope. Instead, it became a secular state: still Roman Catholic, but whose leader had independence from Rome. After this exercise, which as I noted above, seems to be going against my position, we'll try to clarify what these mean. I made a proposal for an alternate presentation above, and here's a slight modification: "The Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem was formed as a Christian state, led by an elected monarch. The monarch (king or queen after 1100) was recognized as head by the Haute Cour, but legally only primus inter pares." What do you think? Dr. Grampinator (talk) 21:04, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Dr. Grampinator Sorry to take so long to answer, and "insulting" was way to strong. I don't think "as a secular state" means anything in the lead and isn't needed. Personal opinion: drop "shunned" down a paragraph, work on that line. Farther down is sort of above me, but I don't see that "secular" is very clear anywhere unless you know the Crusades. Sammy D III (talk) 23:44, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

• No per Seraphimblade. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:16, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
• No. I have changed my vote to No for the following reasons. (1) The concept of "state" did not exist in the 12th century and so there could not be a secular state at Jerusalem. (2) Despite the fact that historians use the word "secular" when describing the kingdom (e.g., Asbridge, The First Crusade (pg. 323): "The First Crusaders had brought Latin rule to the secular and spiritual realm of Jerusalem."), the current definition and use of the word of secular does not match the meaning in Medieval times and so is confusing. The reference to both a secular and spiritual realm is also confusing. (4) No reliable source uses the phrase: The Kingdom of Jerusalem was established as a secular state. (3) The government of the kingdom is best described as a monarchy, which is by definition non-ecclesiastical, and so the adjective secular is superfluous. (4) My recommendation for the description is: The Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem was formed to rule the captured Palestinian territories in 1099, led by an elected monarch. More to come tomorrow, as it's late. Dr. Grampinator (talk) 03:08, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
• Comment. Because Godfrey refused the title of king and Dagobert of Pisa had his sights on ruling the Holy City himself, I'm wondering if the kingdom of Jerusalem was not actually formed until Baldwin I was enthroned as the first king of Jerusalem. This position seems to be supported by Tyerman in his work God's War. There (pg. 180) he states: "Such was the importance of the Genoese in the creation of the kingdom of Jerusalem under its first king, Baldwin I,..." That the term Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem is appropriate should be clear, but debatable as there was no king at first. So maybe a better description would be: "The Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem was formed to rule the Holy City, led by an elected monarch. Godfrey of Bouillon was elected first Latin ruler of Jerusalem, using the title prince or Advocate." That leaves flexibility in describing when exactly the kingdom was formed. The title "Advocate" implies ecclesiastical authority (Tyerman, pg. 159) and so his use of the word secular in describing the rule of Jerusalem is contradictory. Dr. Grampinator (talk) 20:15, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
• No The current definition or understanding of the term secular does not have any similarity or equivalent in the kingdoms that existed thousands of years ago. - Mnair69 (talk) 01:44, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
• No per Seraphimblade AnneDant87 (talk) 15:39, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Root causes of the First Crusade

I don't intend on getting into to a long, drawn out argument on semantics, but the sentence labeled as nonsense seems to be universally accepted as true. I'm not going to start pulling quotes as there is likely no source that says exactly that or the source won't be good enough. The article Crusading Movement says as much. Dr. Grampinator (talk) 00:10, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

In part this is the result of using dated sources for assertions that modern academics have now discounted. As Asbridge puts it this battle was once considered by some academics to be pivotal, but it is now consider only one of a number of events leading to Turkish control of Anatolia. It is hard to justify the assertion that this was a cause of events that happened two decades later. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:49, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

@Norfolkbigfish. I have to take issue with your changing the article while it was still under discussion. You posted this and then changed the article 4 minutes later. I'm not going to reverse because I don't want get into a big argument on this. But, your description of Asbridge's view is exactly what the article originally said, which is "was one of the root causes of the First Crusade." That's what "root cause" means. Maybe @Firsteleventh could chime in. Dr. Grampinator (talk) 18:46, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

I think that it is a worthwhile piece of context, but appreciate that it is covered in detail in the specific First Crusade entry. Firsteleventh (talk) 18:55, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Apologies @Dr. Grampinator, I thought the thread was dormant. Asbridge's point was that acdemics do not consider Manzikert pivotal or as a particularly significant defeat (I am doing this from memory but I think it is in Crusades-happy to be correted). The article implied the exact opposite. Happy to revert and amend if @Firsteleventh has a different suggestion, but imho I think it reades better without the assertion. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:46, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Did some checking, he puts it ...hostorians no longer consider this to have been an utterly cataclysmic reversal...it still was a stinging setback that presaged notable Turkish gains (p27). I read that as notable, but not a root cause. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:18, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

I think it is worth mentioning that "Byzantium" was under pressure (of which Manzikert formed an important part), which led to Alexios Comnenus calling for help in fighting off the Turks. Tom doesn't really give that much weight in his intro, but there is more on p.34 that may be useful. Firsteleventh (talk) 09:08, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

@Norfolkbigfish, @Firsteleventh. While these discussions are enlightening, you shouldn't make what I consider major changes to stable articles like this without a consensus. The same thing happened with the "secular" discussion, which should not be repeated. Also, I wasn't quite sure what book of Asbridge's you were referencing, but I think it was "The Crusades." And the footnotes at the bottom from a previous discussion make this difficult to follow. Can they be moved somehow?

Definition of root cause: "An initiating cause of a chain of events which leads to an outcome or effect of interest." (Wikitionary)

Quote from Asbridge, the First Crusade, pg. 97: "In 1071 the Emperor Romanus Diogenes suffered the humiliation of defeat and capture at the hands of the Muslim Turks in the Battle of Manzikert, after which much of Asia Minor fell to Islam and the western frontier became destabilised."

So you're saying that Manzikert was not one of the root causes of the First Crusade? Dr. Grampinator (talk) 17:59, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

I think it is a good call to reach a consensus here before changing anything. Firsteleventh (talk) 18:01, 12 January 2023 (UTC)