Jump to content

Talk:Western world

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Nlivataye (talk | contribs) at 17:51, 14 March 2023 (→‎Greece: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Template:Vital article

Consensus blue map

Current map, with Orthodox and Latin America equated and other minor differences.

Admitting there's agreement on the blue map equating Eastern Europe to Latin America, the author could have never: to understand south America and orthodox Europe any matching is plain christian culture that is, an unreferenced unpublished saying. it's not encyclopedic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.1.132.188 (talk) 15:55, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Point noted Rim sim (talk) 10:09, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that for this reason, Latin America should have a different color, as the author of Clash of Civilizations does. A new sock of The basis of recently raised concerns that the color assigned to the "core" Western civilization are too similar to the United Nations colors, which are probably baseless but worth considering as well. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 14:01, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also of note is that Kazakhstan is not colored cyan on this map, but the CoC map groups it with the Orthodox countries. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 14:04, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And since the image is not SVG, I will need to create and upload a new file. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 14:20, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
New SVG map.
I have uploaded a new version of the map with distinctly colored "civilizations" and which is more faithful to the source. Some countries in CoC are divided between civilizations, but these are not indicated due to technical reasons. I would recommend using stripes, if possible, for French Guiana and the Philippines. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 05:41, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

New groups

It is important to notice, that ancient West (Greco-Roman) located in the mediterranean, including Southern Europe North Africa and Near Eastern areas of Asia. It was the so-called hellenistic world. Both Greece and Rome had stronger and more important economic cultural and commercial relationships with North Africa Egypt etc.. than with France (then Gallia) or British Isles.

The so-called truly European West was formed with the Frankish Empire.--Csataelőkészítő (talk) 16:20, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Surely so, but "ancient West" never really existed on the face of Earth: ancient Western culture, yes. Western world is a political definition on common policies, from socioeconomic to military, cultural, commercial and on.
"Greco-Roman ancient West" is like "Aquatic-Reptile ancient Man". The basis of (talk) 15:23, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NOTFORUM. UlyssorZebra (talk) 16:27, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry but, do we realize that with your revisions the page is likely introduced with a fable of Western man that once was a fish, then a reptile, and then became a doctor? The basis of (talk) 17:39, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
With your revisions it's like the only notable thing we would infer from the image of Santa is his "enlightening" glasses. The basis of (talk) 09:33, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

White Christmas

Wrote pages at No Original Research noticeboard and elsewhere, after edits on 19 November and still it different from how reliable sources suggest the Western world is to be intended. Happy white Christmas then. The basis of (talk) 18:14, 24 December 2022 (UTC) Presently accepted version, caressing white supremacy, reads as: white people were bloodthirsty since ancient times and made it to conquer much of the planet. Is this even acceptable other than grossly wp:OR? The basis of (talk) 06:24, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

On a personal note: I think parading the extent of Western culture is beyond what's acceptable given the page is about a political definition of Western, not cultural, that's indeed got its own page: Western world is definition of the extent of Western policies. Republican values of civilization (social organization, human development) born 2000-something years ago, define Western cultural inheritance, not modern Western civilization. The basis of (talk) 17:54, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Matter of fact on 26 December still the user added reference on western culture, camouflaged with some reference of "West".
A new book is used as reference: a work written by author (a historian) who does not publish academic history books, commercial history books yes instead. Also, the author was appointed historical consultant for travel book-guides (with references to hotels for when you're on vacation). The author has only ever taught to minor students, not to university students. And that's exactly the level of understanding, as revised by other users and accepted by administrators, the page is about since 19 November, when Rim sim jumped into editing the topic of the civilized West from that of pornography: a matter of cultural definition shaped into scientific wp:POV matters, since the topic of Western civilization is inhumanly vast.
Unfortunately encyclopedic content is not about culture but education, why wp:SOURCETYPES matter. If a publication is available for commercial purposes only, it's not good source for other than the writer's own page and similarly in the topics of uncontroversial general literacy (as in bookselling), since it does not place academic purposes. It's not feasible to construct another topic's consensus, as the introduction reads here at Western world:
Modern-day "Western" world encompasses much of the nations and states where civilization—is based on the Western culture—rooted in the ancient Greco-Roman world.[1][2][3][4] A theological concept of the West, based on Christianity, emerged in the aftermath of the 1054 East–West Schism between the Western Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church.[5]
Concluding also, commercial publications have their own entertainment goals and unwarranted wp:Verifiability, unlike academic publications. The basis of (talk) 16:52, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Charles Freeman (2000). The Greek Achievement: The Foundation of the Western World. Penguin Publishing Group. p. 434. ISBN 978-0140293234. The Greeks provided the chromosomes of Western civilization. One does not have to idealize the Greeks to sustain that point. Greek ways of exploring the cosmos, defining the problems of knowledge (and what is meant by knowledge itself), creating the language in which such problems are explored, representing the physical world and human society in the arts, defining the nature of value, describing the past, still underlie the Western cultural tradition.
  2. ^ Carl J. Richard (2010). Why We're All Romans: The Roman Contribution to the Western World. Rowman & Littlefield Publishers. ISBN 978-0742567801. In 1,200 years the tiny village of Rome established a republic, conquered all of the Mediterranean basin and western Europe, lost its republic, and finally, surrendered its empire. In the process the Romans laid the foundation of Western civilization. [...] The pragmatic Romans brought Greek and Hebrew ideas down to earth, modified them, and transmitted them throughout western Europe. [...] They not only provided the conditions of peace and prosperity necessary for the transmission of Greco-Roman culture and Christianity but also proved themselves the most capable administrators and lawgivers in human history. They effectively administered an empire of unprecedented size with minimal bureaucracy and technology and bequeathed to the West a system of law [...] Roman law remains the basis for the legal codes of most western European and Latin American countries — Even in English-speaking countries, where common law prevails, Roman law has exerted substantial influence. [...] Many of the founders of the United States considered Roman law more rational and more truly based on natural law than the common law. The Supreme Court justice Joseph Story led a nineteenth-century movement to use Roman legal concepts to reform the more chaotic common law and to provide guidance in those areas in which the common law was silent.
  3. ^ Hanson, Victor Davis (18 December 2007). Carnage and Culture: Landmark Battles in the Rise to Western Power. Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group. ISBN 978-0-307-42518-8. the term "Western" — refer to the culture of classical antiquity that arose in Greece and Rome; survived the collapse of the Roman Empire; spread to western and northern Europe; then during the great periods of exploration and colonization of the fifteenth through nineteenth centuries expanded to the Americas, Australia and areas of Asia and Africa; and now exercises global political, economic, cultural, and military power far greater than the size of its territory or population might otherwise suggest.
  4. ^ Grant, Michael (1991). The Founders of the Western World: A History of Greece and Rome. New York : Scribner : Maxwell Macmillan International. ISBN 978-0684193038.
  5. ^ Bideleux, Robert; Jeffries, Ian (1998). A history of eastern Europe: crisis and change. Routledge. p. 48. ISBN 978-0-415-16112-1.
There is no prohibition on non-collegiate sourced. Certainly in some areas of science and technology (e.g. WP:MEDRS) they would be strongly preferred, but I don't see a case for discounting this particular source. OhNoitsJamie Talk 18:06, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
At least I find case given by multi-year wp:Accuracy dispute templates (to double-check this look through past revisions of the page) is overlooked. The basis of (talk) 21:14, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Civilization is based on Western culture?

A recent edit by Rim sim adds some text that's unclear and unsupported. The lead now says that Modern-day Western world encompasses much of the nations and states where civilization is based on Western culture. What does it mean for civilization to be based on Western culture? The citation supports the idea that "Western culture" is a thing and that Western states tend to be powerful, but that's different than saying that civilization is based on Western culture.      — Freoh 05:51, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

civilization is based on Western culture refers to societies where governance, institutions, human rights, language, legal system etc are broadly based on that of Western culture; these civilizations are in stark contrast to others like in the Arab world and the Eastern world, where all the aforementioned things are different. The map in the lead corroborates this point. Rim sim (talk) 06:27, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This point of view needs to be clarified and attributed. To say that civilization is based on Western culture is a claim that is both vague and exceptional, and it's currently not explicitly supported by any sources.      — Freoh 01:29, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Worked on it! Rim sim (talk) 16:48, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Undue weight to Herodotus

A recent edit by Rim sim added some trivia to the lead that isn't present in the body. It now says that The first historically recorded awareness of various regions of the world as East and West came from the people of ancient Greece in fifth century BCE. Why are we giving so much weight to Herodotus? That aspect of Western history doesn't seem super significant.      — Freoh 06:03, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Herodotus is referred to as "The Father of History". Mention of such an important figure in the lead is in correspondence with WP:LEDE not some trivia; note that the article is still under construction. Rim sim (talk) 06:38, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Plenty of other sources say that "The West" didn't exist until many centuries later, so the importance of Herodotus is seriously questionable. If this article is still under construction, then it should be draftified.      — Freoh 01:32, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Herodotus is mentioned in reference only. Why get upset at the The Father of History. Article under construction was meant that there's still so much work to be done (on this article) so that it gets to the level of a good or a featured article, you can help by adding Plenty of other sources. Rim sim (talk) 16:45, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Individualism and enlightenment

A recent edit by Rim sim adds some text that misrepresents its source. The current version of the article says that Empowering ideals like individualism and enlightenment have been considered as ‘Western’ or ‘White’ values. Here's what the cited text actually says:

Manichaeism – a major religion formed in the third century CE premised on a moral struggle between good and evil – was popularised as a socio-political concept by Frantz Fanon in the mid-twentieth century. In Fanon’s scathing writings on colonialism and post-colonialism, ‘the colonial world is a Manichaean world’ (Fanon 2004: 6). There is the colonising force and the colonised; while the former is imposing, dominating, controlling, the latter is portrayed as impervious to any ethics or morals. Furthermore, not only is the colonised – or native – perceived as not possessing any values, they represent the negation of values (generally that of the coloniser). To this end, the ‘native’ is perceived as the enemy of values, or ‘absolute evil’ (Fanon 2004: 6). Conversely, it is because colonisers perceive themselves as holding values that they are able to justify the violence of colonisation and colonising practices. Specifically, these are ‘Western’ or ‘White’ values that find their foundation in Greco-Roman philosophy and espouse key notions such as individualism and enlightenment. Fanon’s theory on violence as a tool and product of colonisation and its resistance is useful as a way of contextualising how ‘Manichaeism’ is used in contemporary politico-social arguments.

This does not support the idea that individualism and enlightenment have been considered as ‘Western’ or ‘White’ values, and it contradicts the notion that these values are empowering.      — Freoh 06:15, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Surely, the wording will be improved in this context. Rim sim (talk) 06:52, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Eastern barbarism

A recent edit by Rim sim adds a single-sentence paragraph to the lead that I think gives undue weight to a racist depiction of "The East":

Used to develop national identities, the overarching concept of the West was forged in opposition to ideas such as "the East", "the Orient", "Eastern barbarism", "Oriental despotism", or the "Asiatic mode of production" by Karl Marx.

Why do we need all of these quotes? This information is not included in the body of the article. The attention given to Marx also seems unwarranted, and it's unclear what exactly is being attributed to him.      — Freoh 06:33, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The edit was not made by me (done by someone else), I just restored it. All those strong words are mentioned in the source text; this will be modified soon. Rim sim (talk) 06:44, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Western world, Western culture, Western civilization

This page seems to have a fair amount of overlap with Western culture and History of Western civilization. Western civilization currently redirects to Western culture, but it's unclear to me how the scope of this article differs from Western culture. I get the sense that authors tend to use the terms pretty much interchangeably, and some of the citations on this page refer to Western civilization rather than the Western world. In my opinion, we should do one of the following:

  1. Merge the most relevant parts of this page into Western culture and History of Western civilization. Delete this page and make Western world redirect to one of those two.
  2. Delimit the scope of this article more clearly. I think that it would make sense to keep this article focused on the historical formation of the Western identity and the "othering" of Orientalism. This would mean trimming a lot of the content that seems like a general history of Western civilization and keeping only the content about Western identity—that is, the history of people viewing themselves as Western, and how Westerners have intentionally distinguished themselves from "the Orient".

I'm leaning toward the second, and I could help with the trimming, but let me know if you have different thoughts.      — Freoh 18:09, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Article has been improved accordingly, you may undo the WP:NPOV tag now. Rim sim (talk) 15:12, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That tag was about the POV issue mentioned in § Civilization is based on Western culture?. My proposal in this section has not been addressed. Do you have any thoughts about my proposed trimming?      — Freoh 15:18, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What are the points that need to be trimmed? Rim sim (talk) 15:29, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The content that's not directly related to Western identity, for example:
I think that this article should stay focused on the ways that Westerners have distinguished themselves from "the Orient". More general content belongs in Western culture and History of Western civilization.      — Freoh 17:59, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Greece

Greece isn't in dark blue in the map? Greece which contributed the most on the current Western Civilization Nlivataye (talk) 17:51, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Western_world&oldid=1144619910"