Great power was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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I see a lot of discussion regarding the exclusion of Italy and inclusion of India. TBH, this entire thing is a big mess. So I came up with an idea. You see, the EU, has and is being listed by many scholars as a great power or a potential superpower. I know that the EU is not a country but it acts like that. And it is undoubtedly a force to reckon with. And if we add the EU then the debate over Italy will vanish as Italy is a part of EU. Germany and France too won't be seen in the table. The UK though.... I will talk about the UK later. Now time for India. 4th strongest military,6th largest economy, one of the fastest developing nations, a nuclear armed state,a member of G20, a space superpower and excellent food(this is subjective) . I think all this is enough to Show India's influence on the world stage. I still don't understand why "scholars" don't count India as a great power. I know India has issues like corruption,poor infrastructure and income inequality but it is rapidly coming out of that. So I think India's inclusion is a must. And some say Brazil should also be included and I think Brazil is a strong force since it is the Jupiter of South America. But whether it's a great power is up for discussion. And UK... umm... I leave it up to you guys. So in this way the modern great powers will be US, China, Russia, the EU, Japan and India (and maybe the UK and Brazil if you guys agree that they are also great powers). Plz send me feedback as to whether you like my suggestion or not. Thank you.!! Lieutenant Vasquez (talk) 07:21, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think the best course of action is to describe peculiarities of powers in the artilce in detail (as it is now; India, Italy, Brazil and EU are already included) and forget about the unfortunate table. At least until some consensus is reached. Pavlor (talk) 08:50, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well... if you have read the article which apparently stated clearly in the first sentence: "A great power is a sovereign state that is recognized as having the ability and expertise to exert its influence on a global scale." and the EU is merely an associated political union in certain geographic region, which is NOT a sovereign state. 123.192.182.76 (talk) 16:32, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think while the EU isn't a sovereign state it certainly exerts a great deal of influence within the world (e.g. the Brussels effect) and should at least be mentioned in the article as either a superpower or a potential superpower. Obviously the EU isn't a sovereign state but as a political union it's much more integrated than any other international trade/customs union and is really a sui generis entity that isn't really comparable to any other union. SwensonJ (talk) 16:44, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Request for comment
1. Is Italy a Great Power? If it is not a Great power or only a disputed one, should the article change the "Emerging powers" section to a "Possible Great Powers" section (or a different name)?
2. Should the map showing Great powers be updated to include Italy? Should the map also include disputed & emerging powers discussed in the Article? Should the map be removed entirely?
3. What should be done with the Template:List of great powers by date? Should it be limited to the end of WWII when all sources agreed on who was a Great power? Should it go until the end of the millennium or the fall of the soviet union? If the template goes beyond WWII, should Italy be included with other Great powers? Should the template be removed entirely?
So sorry, I do not remember writing this before. I'll try again and put what I originally wrote below.
As of late there has been dispute if Italy should be included in both the Template:List of great powers by date and on the map (shown below). People were concerned that Italy's inclusion was incorrect as it appears to be debatable among experts if Italy is a great power or not. I am of the personal belief that Italy is not a Great power as I would rank it as a middle power with the likes of Spain. Yet there appears to be good academic sources stating otherwise and Italy even has a Wikipedia page dedicated to its Great Power status called Least of the Great Powers. With that evidence, I see no problem with its inclusion, even though it goes against my own personal opinions on the subject.
At first, only the template was debated. It was suggested by a couple of users that the template should change and it should end after WWII as that is the last time all sources agreed on who the great powers were. Any dates after that would only be added after people agreed on the talk page. Then another conversation came up to remove the template entirely as different users over the years edit the page or template to add in their own preferred country to the article. While it was not my preferred option (as I would rather have it end after the fall of the soviet union or 1999) I decided to be bold and on August 6 and edited the template so that it only goes up to WWII as it was the only date that everyone could agree upon. After that, the debate appeared to end and the subject matter seemed to have been resolved. That was until yesterday when another user reverted the table to what it was before even after pointing out that the edit was the only thing that everyone agreed on and ended the debate weeks ago.
Earlier this week another IP user came forward and started to remove the map. They stated that they were removing the map because Italy was not included. While the user was not being productive, simply removing content, they might have had a point. So a similar conversation has started around the map, should Italy be added to the map or should the map be removed because users don't agree that Italy is a Great power. I am of the position that either:
The article needs to reflect that Italy is a disputed Great power and change the emerging powers section around to a disputed Great powers section.
The map needs to change as it appears that the article does hesitantly support it as a Great power.
It seems that a list of the different Great powers over the years since the Congress of Vienna has been around since 2008 and a map of current great powers has been on this page for just as long.
As it appears there are not a lot of people weighing in on this conversation and not everyone appears to Wikipedia:Assume good faith with IP users, I am hoping that some more users can weigh in on this subject and help. Maybe you can see another solution that we have missed so far.--51.7.116.157 (talk) 13:02, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment 1) I´m not against a change of wording concerning Italy (disputed status in RSs), but the current text is also fine. 2) Remove the map, area of Middle/Great/other Powers is so rich, some simple graphics like this would be misleading. Note if there should be any map, the current one (P5+2) is more close to the balance of opinion in RSs than any other option. 3) Remove the template. It is a magnet for never-ending edit-warring. Pavlor (talk) 17:52, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'd delete map that is wrong because not complete without Italy. Italy to give an idea has a larger nominal GDP, a higher HDI and a larger national net wealth than Russia (not developed), a higher HDI than China (not developed), larger armed forces than Germany, Italy has nuclear sharing and Japan not, and so on. There's a lot to discuss about which country is a real great power. Article can exist also without map. Also Pavlor and LuigiPortaro29 would delete the map as they wrote some days ago.82.53.128.194 (talk) 19:01, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's surprising, I thought you would say that Italy was a great power (question 1) and it should be added to the map, as that is an option here (question 2). So I must admit I am slightly confused about what your concern is.--51.7.116.157 (talk) 21:49, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment 2) The references about Italy in the articles are all valid as for the other countries of which some I doubt they are great powers. We all have doubts about the others but the valid references cannot be contested. If you are in good faith, the references must be accepted. References in this article and Least of the Great Powers, as the article itself says, show that Italy is a great power. Italy must be added in the map. Otherwise the map should be deleted definitely as Pavlor and Luigi Portaro29 suggested some days ago. I agree with them.82.53.128.194 (talk) 01:13, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The core issue concerning the status of Italy is there are far more higher quality RSs disputing its Great Power stature (or even not mentioning it at all), than few cherry-picked sources in support. Pavlor (talk) 06:44, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So just to be clear, your position is 1. Italy is a great power 2. Italy should be added to the map to reflect its great power status. Otherwise the map should be deleted because it does not include Italy. Is that accurate?--51.7.116.157 (talk) 13:58, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment 1. There are good sources that say Italy is a Great power and an actual Wikipedia article about its Great power status. So on that matter, I am conflicted. As personally, I do not agree, yet I cannot dispute what has been sourced. I think that if the article was edited to show that Italy is a disputed great power would be an improvement. If that is done I believe it would help focus both the map and template as Italy would not belong on either of them. 2. If the page is changed to include a "Possible Great Powers" section I believe that the map wouldn't need to be changed. Though I have no issue with the map being amended to include disputed great powers if needed. If it is agreed that Italy is a Great power then the map should reflect that. 3. I do think that the template does offer good information that would be lost if it is removed. The issue is people adding in their own preferred "current" powers into the template. This would be reduced by limiting the template to an earlier date as was suggested earlier by other members to WWII (before superpower diplomacy took over), or possibly trying for a date in the 90's (fall of communism or 1999) when most sources last agree who were great powers.--51.7.116.157 (talk) 21:49, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I think the map, and the table "Great powers by date from 1815 to 2000" as it currently stands, oversimplify a complicated topic and risk misleading readers - as such, I believe it would be best to remove them. Perhaps if we find a way to visually represent great powers by level of consensus on them being a great power, but I'm not certain how we would do that without engaging in WP:SYNTH or WP:OR. BilledMammal (talk) 09:20, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Do you think that the table is incorrect about past Great Powers? This does not appear to be "original research" or "Synthesis of published material" as such lists appear to be widely agreed upon by academics and found in many of the sourced links in the table. Unless I am mistaken, they seem to all agree on who was considered a great power (and when) through to WWII. The issue seems to be around if Italy was ever considered a great power after WWII or not. Do you think that limiting this table to WWII might help (as shown here) or is there another issue that a list of great powers over time until WWII might be causing confusion that I am unaware about?--51.7.116.208 (talk) 16:05, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So if we limited the table to the end of WWII would that be your prefered outcome or would its removal still be your prefered outcome? Out of curiosity, what would those concerns be?--51.7.116.208 (talk) 12:29, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I think the best solution for now is the removal of the map and the template from the page great power, anyway the template as it is, is good to me and for other users too. We can show that Italy's status is disputed and add India as a new emerging or new great power. Japan which is a clear Middle power in global affairs has been called a great power for some academic opinions. we need to found an agreement about Japan too. As I said Wikipedia's Job is not to show the best list, but what Reliable sources say. Even if this discussion is infected with suck-puppets, the sources say me that the inclusion of Italy is good. of course except for that one user who is legitimate against.--LuigiPortaro29 (talk) 08:28, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So you believe that Italy is a Great power and you like the table as it is through to the year 2000 with Italy included. You just want India to be added and Japan removed? I do agree with you that we should reference what reliable sources say. I just don't know if that would be true of India in the year 2000. Also, the only lists to not include Japan as great powers around the year 2000 also don't include Germany. Are you saying that Germany would need to be removed as well? I do think that the sources do typically list both Germany & Japan as great powers around the year 2000. I really thought limiting the table to the 90's would help the table, yet it seems that limiting it to before the cold war does help a lot. Would that work for you if the table was limited to the end of WWII? As for sock puppets I haven't seen any evidence of that so far but we can always ask an admin to check 🤷♂️.--51.7.116.208 (talk) 12:29, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Seeing the comments above I can see a certain agreement with the removal of the template, That's why I have removed from the page. I don't see other solution for Now. I Hope this can help, note that the template has been used only here.--LuigiPortaro29 (talk) 21:19, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Why was the template removed? I was used to the great powers template being visible on this page 21:42, 26 July 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xaxi2 (talk • contribs)
Yes, there was a "broad" consensus to remove the template. The template was a never ending source of disruption to this article (edit-warring over inclusion of various pet powers) and was based mostly on cherry-picked sources and original research. The article is much better without it. Pavlor (talk) 05:38, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Missing word?
It's possible I'm misreading the sentence, but in 2.1 World Wars, the fourth sentence reads: "During the Paris Peace Conference, the "Big Four" – Great Britain, France, Italy, and the United States – controlled the proceedings and outcome of the treaties than Japan."
I believe it should read "During the Paris Peace Conference, the "Big Four" – Great Britain, France, Italy, and the United States – controlled the proceedings and outcome of the treaties more than Japan." (Adding the word "more).
2600:1700:9EE0:37D0:8981:723B:B5B2:982F (talk) 16:26, 3 June 2022 (UTC)LSP[reply]
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