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June 26

How to find publishing information about a book

I'm working on improving the article for Alberto Moravia's The Conformist by adding the Book Infobox to it. However, I'm stuck on where to find a reliable source for this information (e.g., Page numbers, IBSN, publisher, etc.). I own an English translation, but I'm trying to find information about the original Italian edition (perhaps importantly, I don't speak Italian). My copy says that the book was originally published in 1951 by Bompiani, but that's all I have to go on. C. A. Struck (talk) 06:03, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think ISBN numbers existed in 1951. AnonMoos (talk) 06:28, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This might be a starting point: OCLC 3356490 (392 pages) 136.54.99.98 (talk) 06:49, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This second-hand book source has "398 pp." for the hardcover edition. The same number is given at goodreads for the paperback edition. Basically any number from 390 to 398 can be found stated somewhere. --Lambiam 10:10, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reporting of numbers of pages is unfortunately not standardised. Some people count only the actual Arabic-numbered pages (which may or may not include the last page of text, on which publishers often used to omit any number). Others add the prelims, which may or may not have lower-case Roman numerals. Still others may also include any pages after the end of the text, which may be blank, or may carry ads for other books, or the book's printing and publisher details.

One solution might be to borrow a copy of this first edition via an inter-library loan. Or you might place a query on Italian Wikipedia's equivalent of this desk (assuming there is one) where it is more likely to be seen by someone who actually owns a copy. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.177.243 (talk) 14:53, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

An image of the book jacket of the first edition can be found here. Using it as a thumbnail in a Book infobox should fall under the fair-use exemption. (The young man in the image is actually Renoir's depiction of Georges Durand-Ruel, who worked as an art dealer in Paris, so very little original work was invested by the book jacket's designer.) --Lambiam 10:35, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the book's catalog entry from the Italian National Library (which is actually a grouping of major Italian public libraries and not a single institution, as is the case in many other countries). Xuxl (talk) 12:55, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

C. A. Struck, in general, WorldCat is a great place to search. As a librarian, I use it virtually every day to find publication information, especially when I'm cataloguing books. An "OCLC number", like the one 136.54.99.98 suggested, is the number for a particular book's record in WorldCat; OCLC is the organisation that operates WorldCat. Nyttend (talk) 21:56, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

News of the world

A report on page 22 of Wednesday's Daily Express headed "Freedom for Ukraine" ends somewhat abruptly. The last sentence reads:

He claimed their forces had come

To the right is a picture of what appears to be four men in army fatigues in a bunker [2]. The caption reads: caption: is in 8.5pt helvetica bold except when it's. Who are the men? A larger picture above shows a man in a crater, around the rim of which are several wheeled vehicles. The caption reads: caption: is in 9 pt helvetica black except. In some editions the words "when it's" follows the word "except". What is the location? 2A02:C7C:38C1:3600:8EE:598:5D80:94C4 (talk) 13:52, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It might be better to ask the Daily Express than to have us make a guess. Your link ~~is behind a paywall~~ requires an account. Alansplodge (talk) 15:46, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

White Antelope

Why is White Antelope named after an old-world animal? How much would Plains Indians of that era know about antelopes? Or is that just a translation artifact? If his Cheyenne name means something slightly different, what "should" it be, and where did the English name come from? — Aᴋʀᴀʙʙıᴍ ^talk 15:13, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The pronghorn is colloquially known as the American antelope, the pronghorn antelope, or the prairie antelope. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:39, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

An online Cheyenne-English dictionary spells the name Vó'kaa'e Ȯhvó'komaestse; just vó'(k)aa'e is glossed as "antelope", while vó'(k)om- means "white". Apparently the English term "antelope" was used for an antelope-like animal whose range overlapped with the Cheyenne area – as that of the pronghorn did before it was extirpated from Minnesota. Many names are of the form *** Ȯhvó'komaestse: Aénohe Ȯhvó'komaestse = "White Hawk"; Éše'he Ȯhvó'komaestse = "White Moon"; He'heēno Ȯhvó'komaestse = "White Blackbird". Clearly, the colour attributes do not form fixed combinations with the words for the animal or object that are the second parts of such names. Conversely, there are the names Vó'kaa'e Ȯhma'aestse = Red Antelope", Vó'kaa'e Ȯhtameméoestse = "Running Antelope" and Vó'kaa'e Ȯhvovó'haestse = "Spotted Antelope". For what it is worth, the same dictionary glosses the common noun vóhpevó'aa'ee as "white antelope". --Lambiam 21:06, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Census figure

I am in the process of updating the census portion of the 'Demographics' section of a U.S. city article, and one of the figures I'm updating is the number of 'families'. Unfortunately while I can find what the Census Bureau defines as a 'family', it doesn't appear as if that number is given plainly - rather, it's broken down into numbers of 'married couple household' and 'cohabitating couple household', etc. etc. While I think I'm adding the correct figures, I'm coming up with a number significantly smaller than the number I'm updating (from the 2000 census) even though the city has gained population. Does anyone know just what figures need to be tallied to come up with an accurate family count? Or am I better off just removing that statistic? Thanks in advance. DrOrinScrivello (talk) 18:31, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think the information you are looking for is listed as "households", not "families".--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 18:38, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Which is a reasonable thought to have, except that the city I'm working on along with many others list 'households' and 'families' separately. According to the Census Bureau, a 'household' is any dwelling with at least one person. A 'family' is two or more people related by birth, marriage, or adoption and living together. I'm trying to find out which datasets in this table constitute a 'family'. DrOrinScrivello (talk) 19:08, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

After further research, it appears as if my initial figure was actually correct. While the city is gaining population, the demographics are shifting such that there are more young people and fewer families. No further assistance needed, thanks again. DrOrinScrivello (talk) 20:20, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, DrOrinScrivello, "household" and "family" are different; in the 2020 census I reported as a single-person household, and obviously that doesn't count as a family. I don't know if it still does, but when I was frequently editing US geography articles and looking at Census demographics frequently (more than a decade ago!), the Census website reported families separately; you didn't have to guess. Finally, note that some people don't live in households, e.g. inmates of university dormitories or of prisons. For an extreme example, check the statistics for Jenks Township, Forest County, Pennsylvania, where a prison opened in the 2000s; although you won't see it in the article's demographics (which are from 2000), the number of households stayed roughly the same from 2000 to 2010, despite the population tripling. Nyttend (talk) 22:08, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

June 27

Question for American and European Christians

Before I ask this, I want to say that I believe in God. I respect other religions. But I need to know from Christians in the USA, Canada, and Europe whether this happens in the churches of their country. I have not seen such in Hollywood movies or any TV series. Such videos are regularly appearing on social media and all look similar.

See this video. This looks like touching the head gives an electric shock.

https://twitter.com/ikpsgill1/status/1673224845432324097

Curing cancer- https://twitter.com/noconversion/status/1673340840612077569

The way women are rolling on the ground like drugged. I do not see this in Hollywood movies, where I see a group of people sitting inside church and praying.

https://twitter.com/noconversion/status/1673340589310459904

The woman is cured by some pastor or father.

https://twitter.com/noconversion/status/1672821184788848640

Prpohet Bajinder Singh cured a couple from aids

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdMvOScTJG0

My main question is not about the healers. I have read about some healers who claim to cure people's diseases through prayers. My main curiosity is about the videos where a group of people is standing in a queue and the pastor or father is touching their head. They get some kind of shock, fall to the ground and then start shaking like getting shock or in some trance.

Does this happen in other countries? Okswimfan (talk) 14:55, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's usually a feature of Pentecostal churches which practice faith healing. It is found in other countries; for example Scott Morrison, former prime minister of Australia is a believer. Abductive (reasoning) 17:29, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So this happens in Pentecostal churches in other countries?

https://twitter.com/ikpsgill1/status/1673224845432324097 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Okswimfan (talk • contribs) 17:35, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it says so in the linked articles. I don't think it happens in all Pentecostal churches. Abductive (reasoning) 19:54, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This and related behaviours are a major distinguishing point between Pentecostal and non-Pentecostal churches; as Abductive notes, probably you'll find some Pentecostal churches that don't engage in it, but a belief in continued prophecy and miracles (continuationism) is what sets Pentecostals and Charismatics apart from other Protestants. In American Protestantism, and in countries where American Protestantism has a heavy influence in the local Protestant culture, it's very common to find independent churches (i.e. they make their own rules and don't answer to anyone else), and many of them have adopted some Pentecostal/Charismatic aspects, even if they don't call themselves Pentecostal/Charismatic. Nyttend (talk) 21:53, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Who elected Plebeian Aediles?

Hi, I have a question that is puzzling me for quite some time. In different scientific papers there are different, conflicting information about which assembly voted for plebeian aediles - in some papers there is information that they were chosen by comitia tributa and in some there is information that they were elected by concilia plebis. What's make it more problematic is that in some sources concilia plebis is called comitia tributa plebis, and because of that some (example) think that it is the same as comitia tributa, but others think that there is distinction between comitia tributa plebis (comitia plebis), and comitia tributa populi.

Because of this problem I edited Aediles article on wikipedia (in election section), but then I started to realise that I can't find what is the true answer. Prkp99 (talk) 15:37, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It depends on which era of Roman History you are talking about. Blueboar (talk) 20:26, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Republic, it's quite clear that I'm talking about republic, as in the principate assemblies were reduced and disappeared. Whole republican period, from creation of plebeian aediles in the times of first secession, to the start of Augustus reign as a princpes. Prkp99 (talk) 12:45, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Before or after 471 BCE? (Reading the article on the Plebeian Council, it appears that there was a shift in structure at that date… this could account for the shift in terminology). Blueboar (talk) 12:53, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Plebeian Aedile was created around 480 BCE, after first secession or short time before it. Prkp99 (talk) 15:28, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Pre-revolutionary Communists

Is there a term (particularly one with an article) for the Chinese analogue to Old Bolsheviks? Or anything comparable for Communists in other states? Old Bolshevik has only one link to a comparable article, and it's non-Communist: Alter Kämpfer, the analogous group in the Nazi Party. Nyttend (talk) 21:46, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Chiang Kai-shek, Mao Zedong, and others repeatedly purged the old guard, which seems to be a characteristic of Old Bolsheviks: they fall from favor. See Socialist ideology of the Kuomintang and Tongmenghui. Some founders of the CCP (e.g., Li Lisan were among those purged. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 04:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There also were the Kuomintang massacres, after desastrous communist uprisings in Shanghai in 1927 and Kanton/Guangzhou Uprising in December 1927. - My memory is not what it was, but have a look at the Mao- biography of Jung Chang and Jon Halliday. Simon Leys has a remark somewhere about the rise of Mao due in part to those white-terror killings off of CCP elite. And Chang/Halliday(?) write, that Zhou En-Lai was compromised forever due to his role in the failed Comintern China strategy.--Ralfdetlef (talk) 16:36, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

June 28

adultery rate by country

I tried to sift through adultery, but except a few examples (Thailand, Denmark) could not find a comprehensive listing. Is it hiding somewhere? Zarnivop (talk) 01:09, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It might depend on definition. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:45, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So does, for example, rape. Yet there is a comprehensive table. The definition is usually taken from the local law. It may be that the list is hiding under some naming I didn't think of. It will be very weird if we don't have it. Zarnivop (talk) 02:16, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In America, rape is a crime, while adultery, in general, is not, or at least is not enforced. It would be necessary for someone to sift through divorce proceedings and see how many of them charge adultery - assuming that's even public information. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:29, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And that would only show adultery that was cited in a divorce case. Alansplodge (talk) 12:52, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

After sifting for some hour and a half through Goggle and Google Scholar, I found no reliable sources. I tend to believe there is no such thing.

I suppose the most reliable way would be to cross this with genetic tests during pregnancy and the official spouse of the mother. Weird that I couldn't find anything like this. This is a central issue with a hefty chunk of relationships. Zarnivop (talk) 11:51, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps because most people in Western cultures would regard that sort of thing as a gross violation of personal privacy, and in many countries I suspect conducting such a survey would be actively illegal.

I have seen scientific estimations based on non-released, non comprehensive data that suggest 5–10% of people in, for example, the UK do not have the biological fathers they think they do – imagine the levels of distress that would be caused to families and particularly children if all these instances became known. In the UK I believe some basic lessons in genetic inheritance (such as eye colour and chemical taste abilities) were withdrawn from the school curricula because they could potentially lead to revelations of unsuspected non-paternity. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.177.243 (talk) 13:34, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I can confirm, having worked in a school in the early 1980s, that blood group tests were removed from Biology for exactly this reason. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 08:20, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is not a crime in any European country (see Adultery laws). In many Western countries, a partner filing for divorce because of their spouse's infidelity will give "irretrievable breakdown" as the ground. Even if people have attempted to come up with statistical estimates, the date will not be comparable with crime statistics in countries were adultery is a crime. --Lambiam 16:24, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I remember reading an article about this on the science page of my newspaper a few years ago. Researchers looked for random men with the same, uncommon, family name. Chances were pretty high that these men were related. Through birth and marriage records, they found how they were related through a common ancestor in the male line, up to about 7 generations back. Then they compared the DNA of the Y chromosome to see if they were indeed related as the records showed, or if in at least one of the up to 14 links adultery had occurred. I forgot the exact number, but adultery appeared to happen in a few percent of the births, less commonly than gossip claims. And the number has remained fairly constant over the last 200 years. (Edit: This was in a Dutch newspaper, NRC. I think the research was also conducted in the Netherlands.) PiusImpavidus (talk) 08:13, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

But none of this (apparently pointless) research would identify adultury which did not result in live births. Contraception has been around for a while. Alansplodge (talk) 12:24, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is plausible to assume that couples who are "committing adultery" may be more diligent in using effective contraception than those couples who engage in intercourse as legal spouses. Cullen328 (talk) 08:27, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Flag of Denmark

I read that if Danish people in Denmark burn the flag of Denmark in Denmark there are no problem, and if someone burn foreign flags in Denmark there are politic problems with that country. I have a simple question. If foreign people burn flag of Denmark in Denmark, there is problems with country with the country of the foreign people (for example Dutch people that burn Danish flag in Denmark, could be problems between Denmark and Nederlands?)? At the same mode Dutch people that burn Dutch flag in Denmark, there are problems too? 62.18.81.27 (talk) 18:19, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My understanding (which could be inaccurate) is that it does not matter who is burning the flags… but which flags are being burned. It’s legal to burn the Danish flag in Denmark, but not legal to burn the flags of other countries. Blueboar (talk) 18:36, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As stated at the top of this page, we cannot offer you legal advice. Consult a lawyer. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:29, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

They are not asking for legal advice. --Viennese Waltz 08:32, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

ACW: When was this? Fall 1862?

When Andrew Johnson's son Robert Johnson (Tennessee) died in 1869 an Ohio paper wrote "When he was with Gen. George W. Morgan's army, between Portland and Gallipolis, the military authorities forbade every doggery keeper on the road letting him have any liquor, on account of his violent character when drunk." (Jackson Standard, Jackson, Ohio, May 5, 1869) I think based on reading James Patton Brownlow this was basically Octoberish 1862? Just trying to get some background on when/why so I can contextualize for the reader. Any guidance on where to look? TIA jengod (talk) 23:06, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

~~This was during Morgan's Raid of July 1863. This source would make it July 18–19. --Lambiam 14:19, 29 June 2023 (UTC)~~ Oops, different Morgan, fighting on the Confederate side. --Lambiam 14:33, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This source would make it October 21, 1862. --Lambiam 14:38, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OMG you are amazing @Lambiam. Bravo. Thank you. jengod (talk) 19:47, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

June 29

Question on a noble title

Our article on Giuseppe Tomasi di Lampedusa states without citation that he was a grandee of Spain. I can find similar claims elsewhere, but I haven't seen anything I'd consider a particularly reliable source, and for all I know the others might have gotten it from Wikipedia. He was a Sicilian nobleman (ultimately a prince at the time royalty was abolished in Italy), but born after the Bourbon dynasty in Sicily had given way to the House of Savoy. He was certainly descended from grandees, but would the title of "Grandee of Spain" have survived the unification of Italy? - Jmabel | Talk 00:24, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It would presumably be a matter for Spanish law. I know the republic abolished all titles, including Grandees, in 1931, but Franco later restored them. DuncanHill (talk) 08:58, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The title Grandee of Spain was and is hereditary. Therefore I think, the Prince of Lampedusa would have retained the title when the island was sold to the Kingdom of Naples in 1840 and when the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies was dissolved in 1861, and passed it on to his heir, and so on. Otherwise, there should have been an official revocation of the title by the Spanish crown.

Definitely retained all their titles when the island was sold.

So: The ends of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies and Kingdom of Naples had no effect on Spanish titles in those regions; Italian abolition of titles (1946, I believe) had no effect on a Spanish title, and Spain's abolition of titles during the Second Republic proved temporary. Thanks! (I'd still like a decent citation for this particular title for him, but it means I shouldn't change what the article says.) - Jmabel | Talk 14:20, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Another Irish song question

Sorry! But know I am coming here as a second to last resort! I hope that lessons my impertinence.

If any one could find the lyrics to this song, which I believe is in Irish, or any further information about its orgins I would appreciate it! I think the name in Irish would be, Amhran Fiodoireachta https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ygSyaUbvFw 2600:1700:3D74:F010:7556:50E0:287D:EC2E (talk) 00:59, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

With diacritics: Amhrán Fíodóireachta. Some of the Irish lyrics can be found here, and if you have a Spotify account (I don't), they promise access to the lyrics here. --Lambiam 13:35, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Impressed as always! Thank you 2600:1700:3D74:F010:D84B:6E71:5994:509A (talk) 18:06, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Seeking info on Tamilian author

1) There seems to be substantial Tamil history (Chola dynasty) related literature from one S. Balasubrahmanyam. The information I am seeking is whether he was just an armature historian? or was having any professional or educational background from fields like history, archeology, museums, commerce and trade, politics, etc.?

2) Looking for additional reference for corroborating following info. If secondary scholar not available, even verifiable primary source would do.

".. King is variously described as Sengol-valavan, the king who established just rule, Ponni-nadan, the ruler of Kaveri basin.. who established the Chola tiger crest (Page 291); source= citation : last=Balasubrahmanyam |first= S ; title=Middle Chola Temples Rajaraja I to Kulottunga I (A.D. 985-1070) ; url=https://www.google.com/books/edition/Middle_Chola_Temples/dufVAAAAMAAJ ; year=1977 ; publisher=Oriental Press ; ISBN=9789060236079.

I am working on a draft about Indian sceptre. My attitude of working thoroughly is generating good number of questions and will at humanities board around the same topic for a while, as I have been doing always.

Thanks, Bookku (talk) 05:00, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The publisher of the book, Oriental Press, was a publisher of academic and scholarly works based in Amsterdam, mainly publishing reprints of 19th century works. One should expect that they would not have published newer works that did not meet reasonable scholarly standards and would damage their reputation. They ceased publishing in 1982; its publications are still sold by APA (Academic Publishers Associated), also Amsterdam based, which lists this book in its catalogue of publications in print.^[3] --Lambiam 13:31, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In the contents of the Journal of Oriental Research Madras (1936), he is listed as S. R. Balasubrahmanyam, M.A., L.T. (I don't know what L.T. is; one other person in the contents is also an L.T.). This may seem a long time ago, but it agrees with the foreword to Early Chola Art (1966), where it says His intimate knowledge of these temples has been built up over a period of nearly forty years. The M.A. matches up to this mention of him as an "art historian". Douglas Barrett, Keeper of the Department of Oriental Antiquities in the British Museum, calls him "my friend" in the preface of this book, and then proceeds to criticize and disagree with him extensively, and occasionally praise him, throughout the book. He had various awards (sometimes of funding) and friends in academia and government.

Are you looking for a second reference for all three of those facts? 1) That the king had the title Sengol-valavan, 2) That he also had the title Ponni-nadan (neither title is listed at Rajendra_Chola_I#Titles), and 3) That he "established the Chola tiger crest on Mount Meru"? The tiger crest is apparently the image of the tiger sitting on a throne, as seen on Chola coins. I'm unclear on what it means for this symbol to be "established on" a mountain which is itself mostly metaphorical. Card Zero (talk) 15:56, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

L.T. stands for Licentiate in Teaching. --Lambiam 01:03, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Card Zero Since presently I am focused on sceptre part I would prefer to have one more confirmation on the first i.e. That the king had the title Sengol-valavan.

Lot many thanks for interesting and valuable inputs from you as well as Lambiam and Abecedare. Bookku (talk) 06:06, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

S.R. Balasubrahmanyam appears to be affiliated with Sir Sivaswami Iyer Highschool, Thirukattupalli, at least circa 1945, and therefore wasn't necessarily a university academic. But he published scholarly articles, was cited by other scholars, and his books received academic reviews and are widely held in libraries. So not a "crank" either. Abecedare (talk) 02:09, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I found a similar text in Annual report on South-Indian Epigraphy for the year ending 31st March 1931: Nos. 231 and 232 are in Tamil verse and [...] RajéndraChola is described as Sengol-Valavan, Ponni-nádan and Pūmpugār-ttalaivaņ and is also stated to have installed the fierce tiger (-mark) on the summit of Méru. This last act may be only a generalized statement of the achievement usually attributed to the early Chéla sovereigns. The "Nos. 231 and 232" refer to a table at the beginning of this document, which gives inscriptions 231-236 as located in Agaram. So evidently this is indeed what the inscription there said (and perhaps still does). Card Zero (talk) 07:10, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Balasubrahmanyam's book, published in 1975 by Thompson Press (d) Ltd., Faridabad, Haryana, is available on the Internet Archive.^[4] Here is the full sentence together with the one preceeding it:

"From an inscription dated in the eighth regnal year of Rajendra I found on the south wall of the mandapa in front of the central shrine of the Siva temple at Agaram called presently Kailasanathar temple, we gather that the king founded the village of Vanamangai and settled in it four thousand brahmanas. The king is variously described as Sengol-valavan, the king who established just rule, Ponni-nadan, the ruler of the Kaveri basin, Pumpuhar-talaivan, the Lord of the celebrated sea-port of Pumpuhar alias Kaverip-pum-pattinam and the Supreme power who established the Chola tiger crest on Mount Meru (the Himalayas)."^[5]

In a foreword, Y. B. Chavan, then Minister of Finance of India, writes,

"[Balasubrahmanyam] is acknowledged as an outstanding living authority on the subject of South Indian monuments and art in general and of the Gholas in particular."

--Lambiam 16:59, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I might enjoy reading a history of armatures, even by an amateur. —Tamfang (talk) 22:52, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

College admissions question.

Has there been any colleges that have gpa requirements based on your intended major? So if your gpa too low, you can't be a science major, but you can be a say social work major. Does anyone know of any colleges that have been like this? 170.76.231.162 (talk) 17:48, 29 June 2023 (UTC).[reply]

I suspect that you are American, but questions such as this need to specify the country in which these colleges are. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 19:11, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Most colleges and universities admit students based on a number of criteria, of which GPA is only one, but certainly there are plenty of colleges and universities where one program is more selective than another, or where GPA might even be a major factor for some programs (e.g. a music program would quite likely admit an accomplished musician with a sketchy academic record).

In the U.S., most colleges admit students on a "general" basis, and they don't have to commit to a particular major until later. However, the application process certainly allows students to target a particular department. In some cases, the latter is formal, but optional: you may be accepted to the college/university and accepted immediately into a major program of your choosing ("direct to major admittance"), or you may be accepted to the college/university, but not yet accepted as a major in a particular department. - Jmabel | Talk 21:28, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Here in Australia, I believe that it's normal for one to be admitted to a particular programme (a "course") at a university, unlike in the US system, and each programme sets its own entry requirements. To see an example, visit the course directory for Monash University at https://www.monash.edu/study/courses/find-a-course. If you click the entry for any particular course, you'll get heaps of information about it, including the entry requirements. Nyttend (talk) 02:29, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also, I'm not familiar with the details of particular programmes, but at Oxford and Cambridge (Oxbridge), one is admitted to one of the constituent colleges, not to the university. Nyttend (talk) 02:31, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Idea that Alexander the Great was the greatest Slavic hero who ever lived?

Just something I saw on social media last year that I was thinking about now. I always thought Alexander was Greek (as far as those modern definitions applied), but I happened across some people having a massive rant/argument with some Greek guys (all in broken English) about how Alexander was actually a Slav and how the Greeks had stolen their culture and how if it had not been for the Greeks, Romans, Ottomans, Nazis, Soviets and Serbs oppressing them, that Macedonia by rights would, and should be a world superpower by now and rule most of the world. I just heard something on the radio mentioning Macedonia and for some reason it reminded me of this. What is this sort of thing called? I know nationalism is an easy answer, but I was thinking more specifically (as an aside, have encountered people online who think Mongolia should reclaim the territories conquered by Genghis Khan, or that Syria should conquer the entire Middle East and large parts of Southern Europe/North Africa with Assad proclaiming himself Emperor, for the good of everyone). Iloveparrots (talk) 23:47, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

While the language spoken by the Ancient Macedonians BC is only known from fragmentary evidence, such as the Pella curse tablet, it is clear that it was a Greek dialect, quite different from any Slavic language. It is also clear that the Macedonian dynasty considered themselves Greeks; by the time of the Common Era the standard language spoken in Macedonia was basically identical to the standard language in Athens. By that time, not even Proto-Slavic, the precursor of the Slavic languages, was spoken anywhere – the language did not yet exist. Of course, Proto-Slavic had its precursors, stemming from the southern variants of the Proto-Balto-Slavic dialect continuum, but the region where this was spoken was then still far north of Macedonia; see History of the Slavic languages. The term for such zany theories, actively promoted by the Macedonian nationalist governments in 2006–2017, is "antiquization". --Lambiam 00:40, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

From the article:

In the narrative brought forward by the VMRO-DPMNE, Alexander the Great was clearly not a Greek. According to this version of history, most of the cultural achievements which are perceived as being of Greek origin by historians and laypersons around the world are actually ethnic Macedonian achievements. Therefore, in the view of some, Hellenism’s true name would actually be Macedonianism. The Republic of North Macedonia would thus be the owner of great cultural heritage, which always had been denied by the world. And as the then Prime Minister of the Republic of Macedonia Nikola Gruevski put it, it can finally present its true history that has been silenced for so long. North Macedonia, in this view, is seen as the cradle of European civilization.

Yes, that is exactly what these guys were saying. Thanks. Iloveparrots (talk) 01:15, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The word for these sorts of things is "delusions". --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 04:18, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Iloveparrots -- After the whole interminable mess of internal Byzantine revolts, and wars between Avars, Byzantines, and Persians during the first quarter of the 7th century A.D., Slavic speakers occupied much of the territory of ancient Greece (including parts of the Peloponnese); the center of population of Greek speakers was actually in Anatolia for the next four centuries. But this was 900 years after Alexander. The time when Slavic speakers in the current territory of North Macedonia had the greatest power or impact in the world was during the brief West Bulgarian Empire of ca. 1000 A.D. (the periods of the First Bulgarian Empire when the capital was at Skopje, Ohrid, or Bitola). But this was 1300 years after Alexander, and they didn't call themselves Macedonians. AnonMoos (talk) 07:59, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The especially aggressive Macedonian nationalism that some groups represent, usually called 'Macedonism' (or 'Macedonianism'), is full of antiquization. Beside claiming Big Alex to be Slavic, one popular theory is to claim that the second script on the Rosetta stone – between hieroglyphs and Greek – is written in a Slavic (Macedonian) language. --T*U (talk) 11:13, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

At the time of Alexander, the various slavic peoples were still living in what is today Russia and Ukraine - and had not (yet) migrated into the Balkans (that occurred several hundred years later). So, while one can argue that the Macedonians of the Hellenistic era were not ethnically “Greek”… it is completely anachronistic to call them “Slavic”. It would be like calling Britons of the Roman era “Anglo-Saxon”. Blueboar (talk) 11:58, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thinking of when English people say things like "when *we* fought the Romans" or "when the Romans invaded *us*"... Iloveparrots (talk) 22:12, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The English are largely descended from the people who did fight the Romans. The Anglo-Saxon-Danish admixture isn't terribly large. — kwami (talk) 22:24, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Getting into the end of your question about Mongolia: As a reference librarian, I get a lot of questions looking for references to support Internet nonsense. A man comes in at least once a month looking for references to support that Africans claimed the Americas long before the Native Americans showed up and pushed them out. He says that he has seen evidence on YouTube of Egyptian artifacts in the Grand Canyon and African burial sites in Manhattan. No matter how many times I explain to him that it is simply nonsense, he keeps coming back. A couple months ago, a girl came in working on her high school assignment. She was writing about all the evidence that Jewish people originally occupied all of Europe and Africa and everyone was their slaves, but the slaves revolted and the Jewish people became slaves in Egypt. Now, they have rights to all of Europe and Africa, which people hate, so that is the source of antisemitism. Again, I explained that even though she read it on the Internet, it is simply not true in any way. I've had people ask about Chinese originally occupying the Americas. I had one person who was trying to prove that all the slaves in the United States were actually Chinese, not African, and that is why Chinese were banned from coming to the United States as free people. Yesterday, a man wanted to find legal documents to show that the United States government hates Middle Eastern people and, for that reason, refused to include Middle Eastern in the official set of races for Federal forms, simply to oppress them. It is all nonsense and even the question asked above shows it. If you simplify, it claims that if nobody ever oppressed (meaning to attack, intimidate, threaten, etc...) a group of people, that group of people would be thriving today. Of course, but "what ifs" are not real. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 12:21, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Another one I just remembered. The idea that it says in Book of Exodus that Jewish slaves were being forced by the Egyptians to build the pyramids. I know it doesn't actually say that (I've read it), but it seems to be a fairly common misconception that it *does* specify that - and that therefore Egypt owes repartitions to Israel. Iloveparrots (talk) 23:34, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Irredentism and Revanchism are terms for wanting to reclaim former territory or subjects. Chauvinism for he unreasonable belief in the superiority or dominance of one's own group or people, and Jingoism for (advocating for) a belligerent and aggressive foreign policy. Expansionism for the general policy of expanding territorial control. I'm not sure what the term is for a general feeling of resentment that your country has been unfairly kept down, and that you'd be a mighty empire if it wasn't for all those people oppressing you, but I'm pretty sure there is a term for it (not least because its a common theme in fascist and fascist-like ideologies). Iapetus (talk) 13:55, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

One wonders if there is any significant populated (or formerly populated) area on Earth that has not at different times been occupied/ruled by two or more different peoples and is therefore not subject to actual or possible competing claims of "rightful ownership". {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.177.243 (talk) 17:32, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Iceland? Samoa? — kwami (talk) 21:50, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Iceland was successively independent, ruled by Norway, part of the Kalmar Union, ruled by Denmark, and then became independent once more, so multiple possible claims.

Samoa anciently had multiple competing royal lines, had two 19th-century civil wars fomented by 3 competing European powers, was partly annexed to the German Empire, and is now split between independent Samoa and the US Territory of Western Samoa. Several of those involved might (if so inclined) press 'historical' claims. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.177.243 (talk) 22:36, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't heard of anyone who claims that Iceland doesn't belong to the Icelanders or (Western) Samoa to the Samoans, and there was no-one there prior to their arrival that was displaced or absorbed. — kwami (talk) 22:52, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Kwamikagami -- There were a few Irish monks in Iceland when the Scandinavians discovered it. AnonMoos (talk) 18:29, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Huh. Had no idea. — kwami (talk) 18:49, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We have an article about Persecutory delusion, but not as a political philosophy. I spot a different theme, however: I see a parallel with Mussolini deciding in 1936 that (like all "pure" Italians) he was a Nordic Aryan, or Rastas somehow being Israelites (but excluding Jews from that designation). Or we could consider all the white images of Jesus. This is all a special kind of appropriating racism, where you wish to belong to an important-sounding group, or wish for an important historical figure to belong to your group, so you simply make it a fact by declaring it: but I don't know of any established name for it. Does it fall under Cultural appropriation?

Oh, Collective narcissism is relevant (at least to the part about persecution): Collective narcissism predicts conspiracy thinking about secretive malevolent actions of outgroups. Card Zero (talk) 19:20, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The funny thing is, Macedonian (and Bulgarian) Slavs likely do descend largely from ancient Macedonian Greeks. It's unlikely the Slavic invasion wiped out the existing population; the predominant ancestry of the southern Slavs today is likely Greeks and other local peoples who shifted languages. It would be interesting to see what the genetics says, but I doubt there's all that much Slavic in their ancestry. Rather like the Azeris, by ancestry, are largely Turkish-speaking Armenians, the English largely Germanic-speaking Celts, and the Palestinians largely Arabic-speaking Hebrews/Samaritans. People get really touchy about this stuff, but saying the ancestry of your nation is any one thing is just fantasy, and usually doesn't correlate very well with which language you speak.

The ancient Greeks did the same thing -- they claimed their gods came from Egypt. The Greek gods (or at least many of them) had typical Indo-European roots, but Egypt was a great civilization, so that's what the Greeks claimed as their heritage. — kwami (talk) 21:30, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Kwamigami -- The Palestinians likely descend to some degree from many peoples of ancient times, including general Canaanites of the B.C. period, and the Aramaic-speaking Monophysite Christian peasants (often called "Syrians") who made up the majority of the area's population in 600 A.D. However, it's rather unlikely that they descend "largely" from Hebrews and Samaritans, especially considering the population disruptions following after the various Jewish revolts against the Romans. The word "largely" overstates the case. AnonMoos (talk) 18:29, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I definitely encountered people who think that black people were the original Jews and Native Americans (I don't think it's the same guys who believe both though) and like with the other examples above, they feel hard done-by because their true history has been supressed. I don't think it was specifically the Rastas though. I did know some a few years ago (met via love of reggae, FWIW) but I never heard them talking about Jews. Anyway, the former lot likes to claim that Moses was black, Abraham was black, etc. and that the Jews are really fake Jews - in fact when Kanye West started complaining a lot about the Jews online, I thought at first that he'd probably gotten himself into that stuff. On the other hand, does anyone *today* seriously consider that Jesus was white? I'm sure that belief is out there. I once saw a painting of a Chinese Jesus too, but that might just be the "everyone used to paint Jesus as looking like the local population" thing.

There's another one I've heard about how white people, or at least the blond-haired, blue eyed ones, actually came to earth from outer space and are a different, far more advanced, highly-evolved species than the humans that evolved here - and thus (of course this was coming!) have the right to rule the world. I'm pretty sure that belief is somewhat nazi-adjacent. Iloveparrots (talk) 22:08, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't that make them [blue-eyed blonds] illegal aliens who should be sent back to where they came from?

I heard a talk by an Ewe guy who claimed that the Ewe were the Lost Tribe of Israel and that there were Ewe inscriptions on the pyramids. There must be a thousand lost tribes of Israel.

Have you seen old Chinese depictions of the British? They all look Chinese. Jesus would've been the same: you learn portraiture by painting people you have access to, so any fictional person you paint is going to have the same look. Nowadays we know what other peoples look like, but before photography most people didn't have that advantage. — kwami (talk) 22:18, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See also British Israelism. Brits are a Lost Tribe too, apparently ... AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:32, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I found a WP article on one of the things I was talking about by the way. Seems that the "white people from space" thing is not just "nazi-adjacent", it's actually something that (some, I guess) neo-nazis believe. See Esoteric_Nazism#Common_beliefs.

Since 1945, neo-Nazi writers have also proposed Shambhala and the star Aldebaran as the original homeland of the Aryans. The book Arktos: The Polar Myth in Science, Symbolism, and Nazi Survival, by Hypnerotomachia Poliphili scholar Joscelyn Godwin, discusses pseudoscientific theories about surviving Nazi elements in Antarctica. Arktos is noted for its scholarly approach and examination of many sources currently unavailable elsewhere in English-language translations. Godwin and other authors such as Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke have discussed the connections between Esoteric Nazism and Vril energy, the hidden Shambhala and Agartha civilizations, and underground UFO bases, as well as Hitler's and the SS's supposed survival in underground Antarctic bases in New Swabia, or in alliance with Hyperboreans from the subterranean world.

Iloveparrots (talk) 23:39, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

June 30

Ingersoll Cutting Tools and Ingersoll Machine Tools

The International Metalworking Companies article mentions "Ingersoll Cutting Tools" without clarifying further. Googling that name gives the company website of https://www.ingersoll-imc.com/.

The Ingersoll Machine Tools article links to the company website of www.ingersoll.com.

1. Given that the two company websites are different, and the names are (slightly) different, are these two unrelated entities?

2. Assuming that they are currently unrelated, was there a point in the past where they shared some sort of connection, given the similarity of their names? Mel Gervais (talk) 22:46, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

They both have headquarters in Rockford, Illinois, probably not a coincidence. Or is it? They have different street addresses, but one company may have a number of facilities. I see from that map that we can add "Ingersoll Milling Machine Co." into the mix as well. (But those two are in the same building, further examination of maps shows, so they are undoubtedly the same company.)

Further observations: Ingersoll Cutting Tools is way off on the other side of Rockford. I notice that Rockford also contains an Ingersoll Memorial Park. Here, opposite a full page advert for a boring machine, is the obituary of Winthrop Ingersoll. It says that Mr. Ingersoll gave to the city of Rockford the Clayton C. Ingersoll Memorial Park in that city. And just as well that it was in the same city, it could have been awkward if he gave them another city's park. So I wonder if Ingersoll is a name commonly used for places around Rockford due to connections with this family, and the (presumably more recently established?) Cutting Tools company may be named Ingersoll just because of this established custom. Card Zero (talk) 22:58, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! Mel Gervais (talk) 23:40, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sure they're separate, but I still feel like I'm guessing until I get the origin story of the Cutting Tools one. Certainly there have been plenty of other Ingersoll things in Rockford, such as the Rockford Institute and its Ingersoll Prize for being extremely conservative. Card Zero (talk) 23:43, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Another data point: "Ingersoll Production Systems" has a website at http://www.ingersollprodsys.com, and their site says:

Judge Jonathan Ingersoll purchased an interest in W.R. Eynon & Co., a local machine tool company in Cleveland, Ohio.  In 1887, his son Winthrop Ingersoll took over the business and in 1891, he moved the company to Rockford, Illinois.  Ingersoll was born.  The first shop was only 【15 × 46  m】 and employeed 19 people.[6]

Same city as the other two companies. Mel Gervais (talk) 23:42, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yet another data point: Judge Jonathan Ingersoll was the father of Winthrop Ingersoll. [7] Mel Gervais (talk) 23:46, 30 June 2023 (UTC).[reply]

Yeah, that's our Ingersoll Milling Machine Co / Ingersoll Machine Tools / Ingersoll Heliport / Ingersoll Memorial Disc Golf Course one. They claim they had something to do with the Magellen Telescope. Washing it, possibly. I see they also made some sort of 52-foot tall fabricating device to help Jeff Bezos build his rockets. It's Ingersoll Cutting Tools (IMC subsiduary) who are the obscure ones. I'm imagining some renegade member of the Ingersoll family decided to take off to a less reputable part of town to set up his own engineering company. I don't know.

OK, here's the story. 110th Congress, 1st Session. The Israelis bought out Ingersoll Cutting Tools, built a $350 million campus in Rockford. The company was just sold to Warren Buffett, so it is a very viable company. The Italians, Comuzzi Brothers, bought out Ingersoll Cutting Tool Division. I think that's a mistake, I think he meant Machine Tool Division the second time. (Mr. Manzullo gets it right on another occasion, but supplies less backstory.) So yeah, it was a "division", and the whole business was in trouble and got carved up by foreign investors. Card Zero (talk) 23:51, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

On the website of Ingersoll Cutting Tools one can see that they descend from the Ingersol Milling Machine Company founded by Winthrop Ingersoll, and that the Ingersoll Cutting Tool division was sold to IMC in 2001. Ingersoll Machine Tools (with the cutting division cut out) was acquired by the Camozzi Group (wait, what happened to WHAAOE?) and merged into its Camozzi Machine Tools division. --Lambiam 13:47, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have personal experience of this Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 June 5#Car industry, revive old car models. In addition to exporting Land Rovers, the firm also imported Yugoslav reisling ("Wine industry questions." on the same page). Not a question of "some renegade member" of the family deciding to set up his own company, the proprietors simply fell out [8]. 2A00:23C7:E529:8D01:5C84:D83A:62D3:7C (talk) 14:05, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

July 1

Carmina Burana cover image

Does anyone recognize this collage on the cover of Carmina Burana (Orff) (~1960)? —Tamfang (talk) 00:05, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There's some copies on discogs with different choirs but the same picture, and they credit the design to de:Fritz Blankenhorn (Grafiker). So, one possibility is that it has some connection to Orff or the Carmina Burana, another is that it's an original Blankenhorn collage. I have an impression of bits of Rembrandt, a photo of a park bench, and possibly a section of Karl Marx's beard. Card Zero (talk) 00:34, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This back cover has "Cover collage: Phillip" and then the longish surname is of course not legible... Oh, the actual release page gives the name as Philip Featheringill. --Wrongfilter (talk) 09:44, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well found! Discogs can show other covers by the same artist: this one has the same style, a collage with a man with black cutout pieces on his face. Card Zero (talk) 10:01, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like Featheringill ran a jazz label before going into the cover art business. Session Records [nl] and here. DuncanHill (talk) 10:12, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks all! I had supposed it pre-existed the recording. —Tamfang (talk) 20:13, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Talk:Osman_I#"Buried_in_Söğüt"

Discussion on the authenticity of Ottoman graves, your input is welcome (there). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:00, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

World War I and World War II

Why First World War has no prime villain like Hitler?

Why Japanese war crimes is not discussed like Nazi war crimes and the ruler of Japan is not hated like Hitler?

Why East Europeans and Ukrainians taking part in mass torture of other ethnic people of same race is not discussed much in media and films?

Why the role of non White soldiers in British Army and French Army is not shown in many many Hollywood movies based on world wars?

Why the mass rape of German women and Italian women after the end of war, is not shown in Hollywood movies based on World wars? HangChanDraft (talk) 10:03, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For your second question, see Japanese war crimes. HiLo48 (talk) 10:15, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There are no prerequisites for "prime villains" for world wars.
Afaik, Emperor Hirohito didn't institute an official policy of committing war crimes/atrocities; that was left up to the generals' and rank-and-file's discretion. And, not being systematic, it wasn't done on an industrial scale (the Rape of Nanking notwithstanding).
Western media and cinema focus mostly on what the Western allies did; that's what Western readers and audiences prefer (and pay for).
See above.
See above. The mass rape of German women was perpetrated by the Russians. There was no mass rape of Italians afaik, since they (a) switched sides and (b) hadn't committed the atrocities the Germans did on the Eastern Front. Also, mass rapes aren't what most viewers want to see (and would be quite difficult to portray anyway). Clarityfiend (talk) 10:52, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) For your first question, Kaiser Wilhelm II was widely vilefied in the Allied countries amd there was considerable popular pressure to have him tried and executed. [9] Unlike the Second World War however, the start of the war was an accumulation of associated events that led to a conflict that nobody really wanted. Alansplodge (talk) 11:00, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) It was necessary to keep Hirohito in place so as to persuade the Japanese to surrender and avoid a costly invasion of Japan. To that end, it was important for the Allies to portray Hirohito as a European-style constitutional monarch who had no power to influence government policy. The truth is still being debated; see Hirohito#Accountability for Japanese war crimes and Chrysanthemum taboo. Alansplodge (talk) 11:09, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There's a drama-film on that, Emperor (2012 film). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:47, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You don't know about mass rape of Italians. Right from childhood, due to Hollywood movies showing only British fighting German, I didn't know about this. Marocchinate — Preceding unsigned comment added by HangChanDraft (talk • contribs) 11:03, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Mass rapes of c. 2 million Germans compared to c. 2000 Italians? Not the same thing, not by a long shot. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:44, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion about Japan in world war starts and end with Hiroshima and Nagasaki and assumed they were victims, but recently I found that similar to German public, the Japanese were supporting what their army did like Japanese's schoolgirls celebrating mass rapes of Chinese.

This is worst like Nazi doctors- Unit 731

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4913066/japanese-troops-killing-british-sikh-pow-target-ww2-pictures/

Comfort women

I can list many more that I found recently, all whitewashed my USA media and Hollywood. Hollywood has made uncountable World war movies and they will continue making from Where Eagles Dare to saving Private Ryan.

Category:African-American war films? Alansplodge (talk) 11:25, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Japanese's war crimes are not less evil than Nazi. But Hollywood did not make big budget movies as they do for Germán villains. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HangChanDraft (talk • contribs) 11:13, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Bridge on the River Kwai? Empire of the Sun? Unbroken? Card Zero (talk) 12:36, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

King Rat? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:17, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not restricted to Hollywood, but Category:Works about Japanese war crimes may have something you consider interesting. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:26, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And just like the Nuremberg Trials were organized to judge German war crimes, the Tokyo War Crimes Trials served the same purpose regarding Japanese war crimes. Xuxl (talk) 15:49, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Japan didn't have a single evil dictator figure (though Americans during WW2 certainly hated both Hirohito and Hideki Tojo), but it had cliques of militarists whose policies certainly had some evil aspects by the 1930s... AnonMoos (talk) 18:35, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As for the role of non-white soldiers in mainstream war movies, 1917 (2019 film) was criticized by historians for over-emphasizing the participation of Black and Sikh soldiers in the British Army fighting in France. Cullen328 (talk) 21:08, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Good film, I thought. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:24, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

But the Indian Army infantry divisions were withdrawn from the Western Front in October 1915, leaving only the cavalry that were mainly held in reserve. See Indian Army during World War I. Vanishingly few ethnic Indians served in the British Army; large scale Indian migration to Britain began only in the 1960s. Similarly Dunkirk (2017 film) shows British Sikh officers, when the only Indian Army units in the BEF were four Animal Transport Companies [10]. Alansplodge (talk) 12:29, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Why First World War has no prime villain like Hitler?" Because the Causes of World War I are entirely different from the Causes of World War II, and anyway Joseph Stalin was rather worse in his own way than the Austrian corporal.
"Why the role of non White soldiers in British Army and French Army is not shown in many many Hollywood movies based on world wars?" You might as well watch Transformers movies for the information they contain about the real world.
Hollywood = Entertainment + Profit ≠ Truth. MinorProphet (talk) 20:51, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

July 2

after movie drinks

When I was in my teens back in the 1980s, I used to fly TWA. As part of their in-flight entertainment, they showed movies. When the closing credits were rolling, flight attendants served lemonade to passengers. I was wondering what after-movie drinks, if any, were served to passengers aboard Pan Am flights. Anyone know?2603:7000:8641:810E:EC94:8C1C:C72B:3835 (talk) 07:01, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I flew the TWA route from SF to NY in the 1980s. I don't recall ever receiving lemonade. Were you in first class? Viriditas (talk) 10:25, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, I was in coach.2603:7000:8641:810E:338:32DA:589A:8A1B (talk) 01:16, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

By the 80s, they had full drink service. Previous to deregulation, the service was very different. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 21:24, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Estonian Fraktur source on 1917 election

Can anyone decipher the first word in this Estonian Fraktur text? I have the rest of the article under control but I cannot match the first word with any village or area in the county. (ping Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM, Lambiam). -- Soman (talk) 10:56, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is Reiust, seen here, the elative of Reiu. For a similar use of the elative, see Londonist here, page 2, rightmost column, above the middle. --Lambiam 12:59, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

History of the Conservatory of Flowers

In our article on the Conservatory of Flowers it says:

During the winter of 1995–1996, a series of large storms exacerbated the ongoing deterioration of the wood structure. The 100 mph (161 km/h) winds blew out 30,000 fogged white glass panes in the conservatory, shattered the white glass dome, and weakened the structure. In addition, 15 percent of the plant collection was lost due to exposure to the cold, wintry air and flying glass.

I was living in the city at that time, and I remember the squalls, but I don’t recall the wind. I also remember that the conservatory was shutdown. Does anyone have any good links to news coverage of this storm? Was the wind storm centered in Golden Gate Park, or did it damage other parts of the city? Viriditas (talk) 23:58, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Viriditas, my father was employed by a general contractor in San Francisco called Anderson Contructors that ran the renovation of that splendid building from 1978 to 1981, so I have long been familiar with the structural problems of this beautiful edifice. I have toured it several times. I have a son who was born in 1989 with a variety of birth defects including a heart valve defect that was scheduled to be surgically corrected at the UC San Francisco Medical Center on Parnassus the day of that storm. The procedure went fine and we spent the night at my wife's aunt's home nearby in South San Francisco. We drove through Golden Gate Park the following day, and witnessed the widespread distruction. I went by the conservatory a week or two later, and the damage was shocking. My recollection is that this particular windstorm came from the opposite direction than usual. Strong winds hitting San Francisco usually come off the Pacific Ocean generally from the west, and the trees are grown and naturally shaped to deal with these prevailing winds. This particular storm blew in from the northeast, and the trees were unprepared for the onslaught. Countless trees fell and may more lost branches that were flung as projectiles. I am reasonably sure that the damage was more widespread than just San Francisco, and must have affected other cities like Berkeley and Oakland and many others as well. I am certain that the archives of the San Francisco Chronicle would have extensive coverage of this particular storm, but I am no longer a subscriber. Cullen328 (talk) 08:01, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for sharing, Cullen. Isn't it amazing how the longest lasting memories are the ones associated with emotions? That's the key to the art of memory, by the way. In any case, I will take a look at the Chronicle archives. It's just a little upsetting to me that I don't remember how damaging this storm was, but given that you were so close to it (UCSF is relatively close to the Conservatory, maybe five minutes by car), it makes sense that you do. Viriditas (talk) 08:38, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps A storm to remember—25 years ago, powerful tempest pounded Bay Area about the California weather on December 12, 1995. Alansplodge (talk) 12:53, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I lived in Sutro Heights then, and that may be the storm that provoked me to say to my flatmate, "There be times when I'm just as pleased not to be livin' in a quaint old fishin' village!" But I don't recall any damage other than in the Park; indeed my only specific memory is of seeing a huge tree knocked down in the Panhandle. —Tamfang (talk) 20:25, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

July 3

Formally entitled "dictator"

Aside from Roman dictators, how many governments have formally been entitled "dictatorship" (either in English or its equivalent in another language), and/or how many government officials have formally held the title of "dictator"? Dictator#Modern usage in formal titles mentions three examples, but I'm unclear whether this is exhaustive, or if they're just three random examples. Of course, keyword searches are extremely difficult, since "dictator" is a title informally applied to many government leaders. Nyttend (talk) 00:38, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The 1920s/1930s trend of supreme leader titles wasn't based on the literal word "dictator", but it didn't do much to veil the autocratic reality either: duce (Italian) / conducator (Romanian) / fuehrer (German) / caudillo (Spanish). In Lebanon, Antoun Saadeh imitated this trend with the Arabic word za`im, and no doubt there were others... AnonMoos (talk) 03:02, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Prefix search also turns up Dictator Executive Commission in Warsaw and Centrocaspian Dictatorship... AnonMoos (talk) 04:05, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also the Despotate of Epirus (with a separate Despot of Epirus page just for the title)... AnonMoos (talk) 07:14, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note that "despot", in that historical context, has nothing of the implicit meaning of that term in modern English. It simply means "lord"/"ruler". "Despotate" is no more equivalent to "dictatorship" than any other medieval title such as "lordship", "duchy" or "kingdom". Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:53, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I know almost nothing about medieval Greek, but in ancient Greek, both the words Δεσποτης and Δεσποτικος sometimes had negative connotations when used in a political sense... AnonMoos (talk) 21:02, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Communist governments have commonly claimed the mantle of the Dictatorship of the proletariat, constituting control of society led by the mass of working people without significant property or capital who need to sell their labor day-to-day in order to survive. In practice, this has usually been expressed as a dictatorship of Communist elites, brutally led by people like Joseph Stalin. Cullen328 (talk) 07:29, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

True, but their officials haven't been entitled "Dictator", and the dictatorship of the proletariat is a philosophy, not the official name of the state. One may similarly speak of Communist despots, but there's similarly no Despotate of Communist Place as there was a Despotate of the Morea. Nyttend (talk) 08:45, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The OED says "Equivalents of dictator in other languages were sometimes used during the 19th cent. and later in the formal titles of heads of state, and the English word has been used to render these; more generally, however, the word suggests oppressive or totalitarian rule, and hence is rarely used in a neutral sense" but alas it does not give us examples. DuncanHill (talk) 10:07, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Banned user
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
See benevolent dictatorship. 2A02:C7B:208:F300:29DA:3E43:4852:DE0E (talk) 10:35, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but again, not many of them have used "dictator"-or-its-translations as their formal titles. Nyttend (talk) 21:26, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Linguistically, “Dictator” means “Speaker”… so I suppose one could say that the office of “Speaker of the House” would fit the question asked. Of course the connotations are VERY different. Blueboar (talk) 11:17, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Of course a man who uses his Dictaphone is also a dictator. DuncanHill (talk) 11:40, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, that's a different meaning; it's simply one who speaks what's already been done (whether speaking for an assembly or reciting the law), while "dictator" is someone who speaks to rule by himself. Nyttend (talk) 21:26, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OED - "classical Latin dictātor magistrate having plenary powers, appointed at Rome in times of emergency, Italian municipal officer, in post-classical Latin also person who dictates to a writer (late 4th cent.), author, writer (6th cent.)" DuncanHill (talk) 21:33, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

After having been appointed Dictador Supremo de la República del Paraguay by the Congress of Paraguay in 1814, originally thought to be a temporal position, José Gaspar Rodríguez de Francia was also appointed Dictador Perpetuo de la República del Paraguay in 1816. He held both titles, styled in merged form as Dictador Supremo y Perpetuo de la República del Paraguay, until his death in 1840. --Lambiam 13:56, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Leaders of the Polish anti-Russian uprisings of 1830 and 1863 used "dyktator powstania" ("dictator of the uprising") as their official title. The native Polish word "naczelnik" has a similar sense and was used by Tadeusz Kościuszko (leader of the uprising of 1794) and by Józef Piłsudski )after Poland regained independence in 1918). — Kpalion^(talk) 10:15, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

They were not government officials, though. See also Benevolent dictator for life, a title likewise not bestowed on government officials. --Lambiam 10:20, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, they were. They set up temporary governments and wielded actual executive power while the uprisings lasted. — Kpalion^(talk) 10:26, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Law, Lloyd George, and dictatorship

Our article David Lloyd George contains a quotation from Bonar Law, "He can be dictator for life if he wishes", dated to 1918 and sourced to a 2011 magazine article by Vernon Bogdanor. Can anyone help me find an earlier source for it? It's not in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations, nor yet in Brack and Ingham's Dictionary of Liberal Quotations. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 10:05, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In this book The Decline and Fall of Lloyd George I found Had not Bonar Law himself declared a short while before that Lloyd George, if he wanted to, could be Prime Minister for life? - which obviously isn't good enough to pinpoint the quote, but might suggest that it didn't really originally include "dictator". The context of "a short while before" seems to be the 1918 United Kingdom general election. Card Zero (talk) 10:23, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That does sound more familiar. DuncanHill (talk) 10:34, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a book Fatal influence: the impact of Ireland on British Politics which has an entire chapter about Lloyd George titled "Prime Minister for Life". By common consent, the victory belonged to one man — Lloyd George, and to him, alone. These were the new realities that prompted Bonar Law to make his remarkable observation about a man who, in the past, had been his opponent but who was now his partner. Surveying this radically changed, this ironically changed, political landscape, Bonar Law said of Lloyd George: “He can be Prime Minister for life if he likes”. This seems to place the quote after the election. There's a footnote which cites Lord Beaverbrook, Men and Power: 1917-1918 (New York 1956), p. 325. Card Zero (talk) 10:54, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

An article in a 1952 number of The Listener, of which Google Books only gives a snippet view, includes this passage:

When I declared in print: Lloyd George must go if he refuses to fulfill his promises of Empire freedom in trade – Bonar Law assured me "Lloyd George can be Prime Minister for life if he wants to". Bonar Law was wrong. Within two years, the Tory leader was compelled to break and crush Lloyd George, not only in parliament, but in the polls too.

Elsewhere in the article the author says that he himself was "Canadian Government representative to the Army of Canada serving overseas, and also a member of the British House of Commons". That sounds like only one man to me. Can we, just between ourselves, conclude that the remark was made to Beaverbook himself, even though in the 1956 book he doesn't mention that? --Antiquary (talk) 12:13, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

From the snippets I've been able to extract the article appears to be a review by Beaverbrook of The History of The Times, in the form of Beaverbrook explaining how he was always right and honest and honourable and everybody else were schemers and shysters and liars. Beaverbrook wasn't above claiming to have been involved in conversations that he wasn't present for, so I would be wary of saying that Law said it to him without third-party confirmation. DuncanHill (talk) 12:29, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Mary Had a Little Lamb" vs. "Merrily We Roll Along"

Why do piano lessons books often teach children the tune of "Mary Had a Little Lamb" (even if that's what the children know the tune technically is) as "Merrily We Roll Along"?? (Interestingly enough, Wikipedia itself reveals there's a song with the latter title, but it clearly isn't the same song at all; the song piano lessons books teach children when they teach children the tune of "Mary Had a Little Lamb" is clearly a song that goes:

Merrily we roll along
Roll along, roll along
Merrily we roll along
O'er the deep blue sea

...which clearly isn't the song Wikipedia's article is about. (Please keep in mind that what I want to know is why "Merrily We Roll Along" is a lyric favored over "Mary Had a Little Lamb" in piano lessons books.) Georgia guy (talk) 17:57, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please give evidence for your unsupported claim that "Merrily We Roll Along" is favoured over "Mary Had a Little Lamb" in piano lesson books. --Viennese Waltz 19:33, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Experience. Georgia guy (talk) 19:41, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's not evidence. --Viennese Waltz 09:19, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We have articles Mary Had a Little Lamb and Merrily We Roll Along (song) and Goodnight, Ladies. DuncanHill (talk) 19:55, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The children's song originated as the chorus of Goodnight, Ladies. --Lambiam 21:00, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like Mary Had a Little Lamb needs some changes if someone who reads music could confirm. According to JSTOR 40214696 the 1830 Lowell Mason "Mary's Lamb" is a different tune. "Mary Had a Little Lamb" in Carmina Collegensia ~~1876~~1868 was apparently the first setting to "Goodnight, Ladies" and with the repetition in the lyrics. fiveby(zero) 21:10, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I went to the URL and it revealed that originally the song (in 1876) was a medley of its melody familiar today and a tune that is now "The Old Gray Mare". Georgia guy (talk) 21:47, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

oops, first edition of Carmina Collegensia was 1868, a year after "Goodnight, Ladies" first printed 1867, sung by Yale Yachting Club?[11] fiveby(zero) 22:08, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We have an article The Old Gray Mare. DuncanHill (talk) 21:50, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I know. Please compare its tune with the second part of the melody the URL Fiveby showed. Georgia guy (talk) 21:51, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reminds me a little of The Boy I Love is Up in the Gallery. DuncanHill (talk) 22:00, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There are two different "Merrily we roll along..." songs. Maybe a disambiguation page is needed. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:12, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So Mason's melody is not that of the MHaLL we know; it does not even resemble it. The current melody is sung to lyrics with plenty of repetitions ("Mary had a little lamb / Little lamb, little lamb / Mary had a little lamb") not found in the original poem and also not in Mason's setting. Can we conclude, with the author of the Western Folklore article on JSTOR, that the current melody was copied from Christy's song? --Lambiam 23:11, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Here are "Good Night" in Carmina Yalensia 1867 and "Farewell Ladies" undated but attributed to Christy if they help. Horace Reynolds the author of the 1952 Christian Science Monitor article does say For reasons which I won't go into here, I think that “Good-Night, Ladies” was the first, and “Mary’s Lamb” the second, setting of this now well-known air. But where did the Yale boys of the 1860's get the air? and suggests there was probably earlier sheet music now lost. He also hints at a possible answer for Georgia guy with This setting [Mason's], now traditional in England, is not the setting which is traditional on this side of the Atlantic... fiveby(zero) 12:20, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lester S. Levy says 1843 for "Farewell Ladies", don't know if that's helpful, i've been lost as to which 'air' since "The Old Gray Mare" was mentioned. fiveby(zero) 13:25, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The words of "Mary Had a Little Lamb" were written in 1830, according to The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes pp. 299-300, by Iona and Peter Opie (Archive.org., free registration needed). Plus lots of interesting info. MinorProphet (talk) 21:19, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

July 4

Religion and gambling

Most religions prohibit games of chance and gambling. But isn’t religion itself a form of gambling. If you’re an adherent of a particular faith you’ve chosen anywhere between one and a couple of hundred gods, but throughout human history there have been tens of thousands of gods. Aren’t religious people placing an enormously big bet that theirs is the right one - it’s like a roulette table with tens of thousands of numbers and a huge proportion of the worlds population have put all their money on one. They’re also gambling with their immortal souls and it’s guaranteed that not all of them - and perhaps none of them - are right. So I guess my question is how would a religious person square this circle that they prohibit gambling but seem to be taking the ultimate gamble themselves. 88.98.87.232 (talk) 23:23, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]