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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Demi (talk | contribs) at 21:20, 16 May 2007 (→Lead paragraphs vs. spoilers (NPOV): difference between spoilers and critical perspectives). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Moved from Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion as that process is expressly not designed for discussing the abandonment of policy changes to guidelines. This move allows for comments already made and any emerging consensus to be preserved as part of an active discussion.

Wikipedia:Spoiler warning

See also the previous debate on the matter at Wikipedia:Spoiler warning/RfC

This policy is a flat contradiction of the much more important Wikipedia:Lead section, and, worse, is used to justify actively bad article writing where key aspects of a topic are buried outside of the lead. The entire policy encourages writing articles in a way that is organized around spoiler warnings instead of sensible portrayal of information, and has gone egregiously wrong (highlights including spoiler warnings on Night (book), The Book of Ruth, and Romeo and Juliet). The policy is overwhelmingly being used to make articles worse, not better, and for that needs to go.

The worst instance I've found yet is The Crying Game, where the twist ending makes the film a major film for anyone interested in LGBT cinema. Spoiler warning says that can't go in the lead. Wikipedia: Lead section says the lead has to function as a short article unto itself. WP:NPOV says all major perspectives must be mentioned in an article. You can pick any two of the policies and successfully apply them to The Crying Game. Since we can't get rid of NPOV, either spoilers or lead sections need to go. Phil Sandifer 21:31, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete — The question, it seems to me, is what a spoiler is. And, for me at least, a spoiler is any damn bit of information I didn't know before. Thus, in filmic terms, just knowing the director of a work, or even a cast list, constitutes a spoiler. It takes some of the surprise away. As a recent example, I was watching Dark Century, a 15-year-old British kids' show, about which I knew very little. One of the biggest joys was in slowly recognizing that one of the leads was Kate Winslet. Now, sadly, I've deprived you of one of the experiences I found most enjoyable about being an audience member for that show. But I haven't violated spoiler policy, even though I've "spoilt" a part of the overall viewing experience for a 2007 audience. The truth is, audience members are individuals. Individuals will find different things particularly significant about a work, depending on who they are, when they experience the work, and where they're from. For some, the plot's the thing, for others it's the way the plot unfolds that matters. For others, it's all about the acting or direction. One person's "basic information" is another person's "spoiler". Labeling something a spoiler is, at the end of the day, a violation of NPOV, because it's imposing your definition of "spoiler" on others. CzechOut 13:13, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or Revert. I would love to know when the template got changed to a layout wrecking monstrosity. It changes my fonts, font sizes, creates a bizarre box around the entire article, sub-boxes when nested, and generally looks like HTML diarrhea. It used to be a basic text banner. Quiet, unobtrusive, but clearly warning others off. I hit my watchist today, and half my watchlist is suddenly the victim of bad design. (Comment left by User:ThuranX)
  • Delete or severely restrict to very recent or unreleased fiction. As per the above examples, it not only encourages ludicrously unencyclopedic labeling and article writing - on The Crying Game, it blatantly causes violation of NPOV, a fundamental content policy - David Gerard 21:38, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    In fact, I really like Kusma's suggestion of using the de:wp one translated (the below is my pitiful knowledge assisted by babelfish):
    When discussing creative works, e.g. books, music, computer games, TV series or films, then an encyclopedia's task is to give a summary of the work and its place in the overall field. Thus, it is natural that the action of a book or a film will be described and discussed in full.
    Many books or films lose their attraction, however, if too many details or the ending are revealed before they are read or seen. So it became common on the Internet to put before such descriptions a spoiler warning.
    In encyclopedias, however, this is rare. In the German language Wikipedia, after long discussions, consensus developed not to include spoiler warnings, and to remove existing ones. The section which contains a description of the action should, however, always be clearly characterized, for example by the heading ==Plot summary== .
  • Delete per above. I'd list elaborate reasons, but we've done that before. — Deckiller 21:39, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Encourages summary-cruft, and Wikipedia is not censored. Sean William 21:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I doubt I can say anything that hasn't already been said before, but they go against policy in various ways, are ugly, lead to bad articles (like The Crying Game example), and yes, dare I say it, are unencyclopedic. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 21:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. I've never been a fan, I've argued on many occasions to downgrade it from guideline status, it's too contentious and there's no real consensus either way on whether to use spoilers or not. For me, Wikipedia ain't censored and I trust our readers that they can work out what an article on any given subject might likely contain. As a UK resident I'm well aware of how to modify my surfing to not stumble across spoilage for US TV series I might enjoy. It beats me we'll stick a picture of an erect penis in articles but we get scared that someone might find out Romeo and Juliet die. Steve block Talk 21:43, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete this please. Whilst there may arguably be some legitimate uses there are two problems. 1) It insults the readers' intelligence - if you look under 'plot summary' don't be surprised when you find (guess what) .... the plot. Wikipedia provides information - we don't censor it for taste, national security, religious sensitivities, or adult content - so we certainly should not censor it because someone doesn't want to know who was Darth Vader's father. We don't put sensitivity tags on images of the prophet telling Muslims to avert their eyes, and we shouldn't mollycoddle our readers like this: 'plot summary' is warning enough! 2) The second reason for deletion is that this is drastically being misused - Phil cites good examples - whilst buffyfandom may like such things - when applied to English literature (Shakesphere, Jane Austen, and Snow While (??), never mind classical latin texts (yes, Petronius's Satyricon - I kid you not!) it just makes us look ridiculous. Encyclopedias should do what encyclopaedias do - and that is not take their lead from trekkie episode guides. Yes, Snape kills Dumbledore - get over it!--Docg 21:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or translate the German version, which states that encyclopedias do not use spoiler warnings, and therefore Wikipedia does not use spoiler warnings. Kusma (talk) 21:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The butler did it delete. This warning is so overused it is becoming harmful. Dil is a man, Jack Dawson drowns, Gollum falls into Mount Doom with the ring, Sergeant Trotter killed Mrs Boyle, Leland Palmer killed his daughter Laura, Apollo 13 got home safe. Sam Blacketer 21:47, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Based on WP:NPOV and the Crying game example. Silas Snider (talk) 21:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Just before the MFD tag was added, Kusma added a short paragraph clarifying that article quality takes precedence over worrying about spoilers. Before that paragraph was added, I'd agree that the policy was a poor one, but in its current state is looks fine to me. It could probably do with some improvement, but certainly not outright deletion. --Tango 21:57, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    You shouldn't take anything I did today seriously; I also added a spoiler warning to the spoiler warning to show how ridiculous it is. Anyway, I don't believe that restricting spoilers will work. Either they all go or we're back at this point in a couple of months. Kusma (talk) 22:00, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    You shouldn't take anything I did today seriously… WP:POINT? — The Storm Surfer 23:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    See, this is why jargon obstructs actual communication. If you have a look at the title of WP:POINT, your comment doesn't actually make sense. There's no guideline telling people not to help Wikipedia in order to illustrate a point - David Gerard 00:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    While some of the edits Kusma made today may have been debatable, and some are certainly good, I fail to see how this edit could be seen as help[ing] Wikipedia. — The Storm Surfer 00:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Unfortunately, adding a "o btw don't do this" doesn't change the thrust of it - it encourages NPOV violations as a habit and the way things are done here. That's really bad. - David Gerard 22:05, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Such things just encourage the industry's marketting plans. Eclecticology 22:03, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete, if this goes through, I will believe that Wikipedia will have reached a new level of maturity, one where it transcends the everyforum.com mentality and becomes a real encyclopedia. I think User:Doc glasgow said it best of the people here, but I know that many eloquent speakers have taken to this cause before. A couple more things: Soylent Green is people, Darth Vader is Luke's father and Jesus dies (and comes back, too!). Axem Titanium 22:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per all the comments on the mailing list. 86.143.233.233 22:10, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep. In most cases you can write a comprehensive article without needing to blurt out plot details in the intro. Have respect for the readers of the encyclopedia who want to know the context and history of something they are reading or viewing and not have the ending spoiled for them. Gamaliel (Orwellian Cyber hell master) 22:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    The fact that this page only demands ignoring NPOV on some articles instead of all of them does not seem to me to be a compelling reason to keep it. Also, given that we do not remove images of genitalia, feces, or other things, what is the reason to have a differing policy on spoilers? Phil Sandifer 22:21, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Apples and oranges. Gamaliel (Orwellian Cyber hell master) 22:28, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes. In censorship cases, such as Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy we include images that people have strong religious reasons to not want to see. In this case, we exclude information that causes no genuine harm. Phil Sandifer 22:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    When we have to for the sake of writing a good article, yes, but when we don't have to, there is no genuine harm in preserving spoilers. Gamaliel (Orwellian Cyber hell master) 23:03, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Your "strong keep" is invalid insofar as it advocates violation of NPOV. The lead summary is meant to be a complete standalone short article; this is actually important as many plans for a Wikipedia print edition involve pulling good lead summaries. So the twist actually has to be in the intro or the article, and hence the encyclopedia, is being deliberately hobbled. The Crying Game is the canonical example, but that's a reason for that to be the rule, not the exception. Oh, and Tyler Durden is Jack's other personality - David Gerard 22:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Such "canonical examples" can be dealt with on a case by case basis. Not every cultural product relies on a major twist like this. In most cases, the goals of providing reliable information and not spoiling the reader or viewer's experience need not conflict. Gamaliel (Orwellian Cyber hell master) 22:28, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    I can think, without serious effort, of dozens of things where the ending belongs in the lead, ranging from The Crying Game to Romeo and Juliet. In every one of these cases, this policy mandates writing a bad article. Phil Sandifer 22:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    And in those cases the goal of writing a complete article should supercede the desire to preserve spoilers. But we should not throw them out in every single article because of these cases. Gamaliel (Orwellian Cyber hell master) 23:03, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep without prejudice, and perhaps modify to prevent NPOV issues? I always found the spolier warning tags useful. (Ok , so I typically read the spoiler warning sections first, but there are indeed people who hate getting spoilered ^^;;) --Kim Bruning 22:26, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    I think if the page is kept, we should modify the {{spoiler}} template to say "Warning! Information that you might not know yet follows below!" and put it on every single page. Kusma (talk) 22:28, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    See Wikipedia:Content disclaimer. Steve block Talk 22:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per David Gerard. Philippe 22:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or restrict to media released within the last (say) month or so. Putting spoiler warnings on films and books that just got released is annoying but understandable. Putting spoiler warnings on Citizen Kane and Hamlet, though, is just silly - their "statute of spoiler limitations" is long over. Zetawoof(ζ) 22:45, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Like good grammar, pleasing layout, consistent use of national varieties of English and other measures we take with reading in mind, this is a courtesy to the reader. Of course, there are exceptions, but luckily we are not a bureaucracy and need not be hidebound by our guidelines--the identification of an article that should be kept despite not meeting guidelines for notability doesn't mean we throw away deletion policy. The fact is that an encyclopedic article about a work of art is not primarily a list of stuff that happens it. Demi T/C 22:47, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I agree with your last point, but I'm puzzled by your overall argument. To my mind, the focus on spoilers and when/where to reveal them encourages summary bloat of exactly the sort you're talking about. Valen and Sue Dibny both suffer badly from this. Phil Sandifer 22:50, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • I think fans' fascination with the object of their admiration does this without help of spoiler tags. I think I understand what you're saying, that providing a structure for content encourages that content to exist. But I really don't think overly-detailed plot synopses would go away if we removed this page and/or the associated template (which is neither here nor there as it's not the reason suggested to delete it). Anyway, my point was more about the pedagogical necessity of mentioning plot points in with an article on the work--I think the necessity is the exception rather than the rule. Demi T/C 23:27, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete — an encyclopedia's first duty is to be informative. Spoiler warnings are the opposite of informative. Hiding information from users who come seeking it is not courteous; it is rude. ➥the Epopt 22:53, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If you don't want to know information about a subject - don't look it up in an encyclopedia. If you don't want to know how the plot goes - don't read under s heading of 'plot synopsis' - it really is quite simple.--Docg 23:06, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That's the nannyism philosophy. Don't give them a choice. Force it on them. Wahkeenah 04:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
How is that nannyism (I'm not even sure if that's a word)? It's the reader's choice whether to read or not. We as editors have no right to tell them what to read and what not to read, we just make it available for them when and if they want it in a NPOV form. Axem Titanium 04:58, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And who's to decide "what users do not wish to have revealed"? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 23:14, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The same people who decide the content of the article. Editors. Gamaliel (Orwellian Cyber hell master) 23:16, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are plenty of perfectly valid reasons why you might want to look something up and not have it spoiled. Gamaliel (Orwellian Cyber hell master) 23:12, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Delete — I've said it before and I'll say it again: "'Wikipedia is not censored.' Spoiler warnings break apart the prose and screw up formatting. It's ambiguous at what point in a game events must occur to not be a spoiler. A spoiler for one game isn't a spoiler for its sequel. Encyclopedic information is complete. It's ambiguous how long after a game is released that information becomes widely known and no longer a spoiler. Etc..." Bottom line is, if you're dumb enough to read an encyclopedia article about a game when you don't want it spoiled, then that's your mistake and not the encyclopedia's. You are your own censor, simply don't read it. --—ΔαίδαλοςΣΣ 23:06, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is no reason why we can't apply some common sense to this instead of going one way or the other. Including a spolier warning is not "censorship". You can chose to read further if you wish, the information is there and uncensored. There are plenty of valid, non-stupid reasons you might wish to read an encyclopedia article about a book or movie and not have the ending spoiled, and the encylopedia should respect those users. Gamaliel (Orwellian Cyber hell master) 23:12, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And yet, hiding a picture (with a show button) is the same as "you can choose to read furthur", yet there's no hidden pictures on penis, nor almost any other article (I know there are a few, but they are by far the exception). ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 23:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Apples and oranges. Gamaliel (Orwellian Cyber hell master) 23:18, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I still do not understand why we should have warnings and disclaimers for information that does trivial harm but none whatsoever fro information that is so offensive as to cause riots. Phil Sandifer 23:20, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Probably due to our systemic bias. I personally would support more extensive tagging and markup, and allow users to set preferences to decide what and how to view--I think actually supports Nicholai's point that "You are your own censor, simply don't read it." Whereas, if no such tagging takes place, this is just glibness, since the entire point is that if you read it to see if you want to read it you've already read that it's people. Demi T/C 23:31, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You keep saying "apples and oranges" as if your logic would magically explain itself. In this case, hiding of pictures and hiding of information are perfectly comparable (ie, the opposite of "apples and oranges"); they both involve hiding something, a definition of censorship. A person who searches for something on an encyclopedia would obviously be trying to find out more about it. If the content exists (which it should, being an encyclopedia), then a spoiler warning isn't going to stop that person from reading and learning about it. The only thing that can legitimately stop a person from learning is himself and we as editors have no place to intrude on that. Axem Titanium 23:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments 1. This seems to be discussing the deletion (or perhaps retirement) of a guideline. However, many of the posts above seem to be strongly advocating the removal of the spoiler tag/template. It would be useful to clarify this point. Is it not the case that deletion of this guideline will leave the tag simply not covered by any guideline, and therefore open to use by editors without the guidance a guideline might offer? 2. If, indeed, the proposal is to do away with "spoiler" completely, then there will be many interested editors who are in blissful ignorance of this discussion. If the proposal is to delete the tag, it may be appropriate to, in the short term, pollute the article space with a small reference to this discussion, within the included template, so as to encourage the maximum amount of participation in the discussion. Notinasnaid 23:48, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"Pollute the article space?" Absolutely not.--Docg 23:52, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I should perhaps clarify what I mean. Not a general notice, but an extra line within the expansion of the tag, so it appears with the spoiler warning. If the tag is such a terrible thing, then telling people a discussion of its deletion is under way is surely not a bad thing, and won't make articles a whole lot worse. I think I have seen such things before. Notinasnaid 23:58, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete templates and guideline. Guidelines aren't policy and this guideline is adding on needless formatting saying what should be implicit in our mission as encyclopedists. Plus, I agree it does violate policy. --Gwern (contribs) 23:50 15 May 2007 (GMT)
  • Comment Neutral-ish. I have three conflicting opinions: one strong one for delete and two weak ones for keep. For delete, it is utterly unencyclopedic to have such a warning. You wouldn't see them in film books which often not only completely tell the plot to the movie in question but also add spoilers to other films if they are relevant to analysis. My reasons for keeping are that this does provide a practical yet amateurish service but it's the fact that I am not sure that MfD should be used to change guidelines. While this isn't a vote it's still not the best way to gain consensus on a new policy. So, there goes. ||| I've decided to make this a comment instead. I've realized there is no way to draw a line about what should have a spoiler tag because it depends so much on the individual. And this is just embarassing... to put a spoiler on an article like that. I do think we need to build consensus on what to do with spoiler templates since just making a guideline historical won't help. gren グレン 23:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Can someone explain how the proper usage o spoiler warnings is naught but a large dump atop the policy of NPOV? Arcayne (cast a spell) 00:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Um, everything above? The nomination? They blatantly encourage articles to be written with a view to working around spoilers rather than with a view to neutrality. From your comments and those of your fellow project members on my talk page - up to and including advocating edit warring to preserve spoilers everywhere - it would appear that the film wikiproject considers working around spoilers to be of the greater importance. That this policy encourages such a view is directly damaging to the encyclopedia - David Gerard 00:15, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Arcayne (and other members) speak for themselves, not the Film project. I voted strong delete and I'm an active member of the project. —Viriditas | Talk 01:55, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    That's good to know! - David Gerard 07:05, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    So, if I am to understadn yoiu correctly, you are suggesting removing the idea of warning people using spoilers because some clowns try to do an end-run around the need for spoilers. Are you arguing that spoilers are ineffective in accomplishing their task, or that they are somehow encouraging folk to find a way around the policy? And please, can we forego the weasel words, please? Calling something blatant maybe your way of effecting a point, but a more matter-of-fact way to explain the issue might be more helpful. Arcayne (cast a spell) 00:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not sure what the "end-run around the need for spoilers" you're talking about is. But, again, here's the basic issue - as before, using The Crying Game, but there are other good examples to be found. One of the most important things about The Crying Game is the transgender reaction to it. Because article leads are supposed to give an overview of all the important parts of the article, WP:NPOV demands this perspective get mentioned there. The spoiler policy demands otherwise. Phil Sandifer 00:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    To begin with, let's stop using the Crying Game as an example; it's a bad article by any definition (which begs the question as to why someone didn't simply fix the article instead of pointing it out as some sort of bastard child of Ee-vil). The Lead shouldn't be including spoiler info about the plot, and spoilers allow the user to choose for themselves whether they want to learn about the story that they would rather avoid. I disagree with your interpretation of the Spoiler policy being at odds with the NPOV policy. Certainly, a better policing of articles to make sure they remain neutral whilst ensuring that plot information isn't revealed are not diametric opposites.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Arcayne (talk • contribs)
    Well, no. The spoiler does belong in the lead because the lead has to work as a standalone short article - else the article is badly written and not up to scratch. So it's spoilers or encyclopedic style. Which will win? - David Gerard 00:52, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I think The Crying Game has a decent lead, albeit a pretty lousy article after that. The lead needs some clean-up to remove some wanky praise (sensitive portrayals? I know a lot of transgender activists who'd beg to differ), but it does the basic job of telling you the highlights of the article. The problem is that it does this by spoiling the movie, and there's no way to do this without spoiling the movie. But if you want another example, Sue Dibny absolutely has to mention Sue Dibny's role as a flashpoint in discussions of women in comics in the lead to be NPOV. That involves revealing that she was raped and murdered. Phil Sandifer 00:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it has a better Lead now, avoiding the specific information about the transgender character (apparenbtly Phil and David took my advice toheart and fixed it up some). The Lead is asummarized overview of the artilce - it isn't the place to reveal who Keyser Soze is, which is why spoilers need to be in the Plot/Synopsis, and nowhere else. A well, Sue Dibney is an artic le you recently re-worked to make a point (an OR point w/out sources, unfortunately). The Lead as a summary doesn't introduce new statements unsupported by the article. The info about the "flashpoint" is not so much that but a symptom of the Women in Refrigerators argument. Hardly a flashpoint.
However, that is a topic for another time. We are currently discussing removing spoiler tags because they apparently inspire allsorts of - as yet unexplained - NPOV violations by their simple presence. That is akin to suggesting that we should do away with baby's diapers because it only inspires babies to crap in them. In both situations, crap is going to occur. Best not to blame the diaper, but rather to instead address the core issue. Arcayne (cast a spell) 01:24, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure how best to respond to this, if only because it seems to contain the implication that editing articles to comply with our policy on article leads violates WP:POINT. In any case, I've added three sources to the Dibny claim now. But the point here remains - both Sue Dibny and The Crying Game, in order to be good, NPOV articles, need to mention things that are spoilers. Otherwise major aspects of the topic have to get exiled from the lead. I'm not advocating putting the endings to every book, movie, and character in the lead. But sometimes it is the best possible way to do it. The Chairs is another example - that article needs to discuss the play's ending in the lead. (And I'll go fix it as soon as I post this.) Phil Sandifer 01:30, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Since the plot synopsis is typically much larger than the intro, that is hardly "marginalizing" anything. Wahkeenah 05:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. This guideline is not in line with several policies and is an unnecessary exception of Wikipedia:No disclaimer templates. All those ugly, unencyclopedic templates should go too. Prolog 00:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • That page has an exception for spoilers, which I've removed. Some people may disagree. I don't particularly care for "no disclaimer", but it's there. Any exceptions to it should not be for such frivolous reasons as spoilers. Eclecticology 01:28, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep There is no POV issue. It's a red herring. This is an attempt by certain editors to impose their will on the readers of wikipedia as to how they "should be" using wikipedia. It amounts to nannyism in the extreme. Wahkeenah 00:15, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • How, exactly, is the forced exclusion of discussions of transgender issues from the lead of The Crying Game compatible with WP:NPOV? Phil Sandifer 00:19, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Why is your desire to discuss that topic outside the spoiler tag more important than respecting the readers of wikipedia who maybe don't want to have the ending ruined for them? Wahkeenah 00:21, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Your question amounts to "how is writing a comprehensive introduction to an encyclopedia article in a manner compatible with our fundamental content policies more important than not revealing the ending of a movie that is best known for its twist ending?" If you cannot answer that one yourself, I cannot possibly help you. Phil Sandifer 00:24, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Spoiler warnings themselves are a way for other editors to nanny readers into the everyforum.com culture where it really shouldn't be. Personally, I don't see how this is a red herring at all. Your argument seems to be a "straw man" by turning this into a debate about certain editors rather than actually addressing the issue of Wikipedia policy (NPOV) and the rights of the readers. Axem Titanium 00:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • User talk:David Gerard#Braveheart_Edits is my personal example of the sort of editing this guideline and template leads to - David Gerard 00:29, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • What that means, I have no idea. And it is about the editors, because suddenly today a few of them decided that they don't like spoiler warnings because it inconveniences them somehow. The spoiler warning is a courtesy to the reader and does no harm otherwise. How about putting the interests of readers ahead of your own? Wahkeenah 00:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
            • I should think that one of the most fundamental interests of a reader that we, as an encyclopedia, care about is their interest in reading well-written, comprehensive articles. Part of that is well-written, comprehensive lead sections. The spoiler policy actively says that we should conceal information in lead sections rather than discussing it. This is contrary to our fundamental policies. Phil Sandifer 00:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
              • (edit conflict, responding to Wahkeenah)What interests? I'm trying to build an encyclopedia here, I don't know about you. Spoiler warnings violate the NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW by concealing important information from readers. It should be understood that a reader will get spoilers when he reads an article. The reader is harmed when he cannot get the whole story because it was blocked by a spoiler warning. Axem Titanium 00:44, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
                • That is absolutely false. Spoiler tags conceal nothing. They simply let the reader know that plot giveaways are ahead, and he/she can read them if they want to. If you read Leonard Maltin's movie guide, for example, he gives all the info in a paragraph and does not give away any spoilers. Nor is it necessary here. It's simply imposing your will upon the reader, taking away the reader's choice by not warning him/her. Wahkeenah 00:55, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • (Heading left because I can't count that many bullets)Maltin's guide is a collection of reviews, though. The lead of a movie review needs to do two things - tell me if the reviewer dug the movie, and tell me what sort of movie it is so I know if it sounds interesting. That's very different from what an encyclopedia does, which is tell me all the pertinent information about the movie. For some movies, like The Crying Game, the encyclopedic information includes discussions of the ending. Phil Sandifer 00:59, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • What is a spoiler then? The climax? The first hour of a movie? The first 15 minutes? The first minute? It's all a matter of perspective. To someone who's seen a movie, 30 minutes in seems like it wouldn't be a spoiler but to someone who hasn't any early revelations would count as spoilers. There is no objective way to define a spoiler so it's impossible to keep this guideline. Axem Titanium 00:59, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. We really don't need to act like a fan site or a movie guide. We're an encyclopedia so there is no need to give out a warning to the reader that by reading our articles they might actually discover something they didn't know. --Tony Sidaway 00:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mark as historical - effectively delete, but don't really delete it. Then restart discussion at TfD. BTW, a good use of the spoiler template was to track down articles that needed rewriting due to "writing about fiction" issues. People will still add spoiler warnings manually, even if the guideline and template family are deprecated. I for one don't want to have the last Harry Potter book spoiled. Carcharoth 00:37, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note to closing admin: This is a guideline page. We do not delete guidelines, we merely mark them as historical. This is to (literally) prevent history from repeating itself. Therefore if consensus here is to delete, mark as historical instead. Under no circumstances must you actually delete.
  • Note on MFD: Note that it's actually not a good idea to vote on policy like MFD so conveniently seems to allow. Use the talk page instead. Discussion on the talk page of a guideline can easily overturn a decision made on MFD.

--Kim Bruning 23:39, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note on notes on mfd's. Deletion Review usually comes after the close. Steve block Talk 22:37, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete per nomination. Mr Rochester has a wife yet living. Mackensen (talk) 00:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per numerous excellent arguments above. Spoiler tags need to die, in much the same fashion as Trinity dies at the end of The Matrix. --Stormie 00:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - please STOP trotting out spoilers as a joke. People reading encyclopedic articles should expect spoilers. People participating in MfD debates on the general principle of spoilers might not expect real examples of spoilers to be used. It is a standard joke to add a spoiler tag to discussions like this, but there is a reason for it. This is not an encyclopedia article. This is more like a bulletin board or discussion thread, and that is what spoilers were originally used for (on Usenet) to allow people to navigate fractured, rambling, threaded discussions without coming across spoilers. Topics shift and change in forums like this, so spoiler tags are needed on Wikipedia, but on talk pages and project discussion pages, but not in article space. Trinity and Rochester indeed. Hmmph! Carcharoth 01:01, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Can't understand what the harm is in keeping it. If it helps some readers, why not? Making Wikipedia reader-friendly seems to me a good thing. But what do I know? -Ebyabe 00:55, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • The purpose of Wikipedia is to provide a neutral point of view to readers. Hiding information does not seem too reader-friendly to me. Axem Titanium 01:01, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Where are you getting this from? A spoiler tag hides nothing, it censors nothing. It simply gives the reader a choice of whether to read about the giveaway plot details. Wahkeenah 01:05, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • But the policy page says "It is also recommended that editors avoid placing spoilers in edit summaries or section headers (unless the spoiler warning is before the table of contents) and avoid linking from another article to a section inside the spoiler area." And while there's a saving throw a paragraph down about article quality, the fact remains - the page advocates organizing articles around spoilers, not around information. Phil Sandifer 01:07, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • Please read up on your definition of censorship. If information is organized in such a way that a certain position is marginalized or eliminated, that is still considered censorship (albeit more subtle and insidious). Axem Titanium 01:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
            • No, censorship is hiding information. There is nothing hidden with that tag. You can write the intro a la Leonard Maltin, with no key plot giveaways, and you can put the spoiler tag, and spill all the movie's guts, and the reader has the choice of whether they want to read about the details or not. Wahkeenah 01:15, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • There is a difference between movie reviews and encyclopedia articles. In the former, you decide whether or not to see the movie. In the latter, you are researching everything about the movie. If I were to talk about, say, evolution and I wanted to advance the position that evolution doesn't exist, I could easily rearrange the article on evolution to discredit Darwinists. None of the information was left out, but the editor (me) was able to spin it towards his own POV. The same can be done with works of fiction. By organizing the article around a spoiler warning, it creates a POV. You also have not responded to my "definition of a spoiler" argument above. Axem Titanium 01:21, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Again, you're imposing your own view on the reader about how he "should be" using wikipedia, rather than letting him decide. Wahkeenah 01:56, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • You seem to know a lot about me. Tell me, what is "my view"? As far as I know, I'm using the classical definition of an encyclopedia and applying it to Wikipedia which claims to be "The Free Encyclopedia". If it's not my place to decide that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, then who's is it? I suppose I should turn Wikipedia into a soapbox for my own ideas. That way, I can actually impose my ideas on readers instead of protecting him from reading the encyclopedia. Seriously, what else do you do with Wikipedia besides use it as an encyclopedia? Axem Titanium 02:07, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
            • All I know about you and the other anti-spoiler-taggers on here is that your priorities are out of whack. Courtesy for the reader should come first. Show me another "classic encyclopedia" that reveals the endings of movies. Wahkeenah 02:36, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
              • Well, I couldn't find a single Britannica article on a film. Encarta has some, but they're all stubs by our standards and don't include any plot summaries at all. Britannica does definitely spoil the ending to The Iliad in its article on Homer, and Encarta has copious summaries of novels. But if we wanted to go strictly by the standards of classic encyclopedias we'd delete all our film articles entirely, or at least the plot summaries. Phil Sandifer 05:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
            • One of the main reasons we started using spoiler warnings was because we normally rank very high on internet search results. -- Ned Scott 05:01, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
              • Maybe a compromise would be, when they click on a subject, to automatically pop up that one editor's lecture on the way the reader "should [or should not] be using" wikipedia, to put the reader in their place and keep their expectations low. Wahkeenah 05:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Week delete. Not really doing any harm, but along with issues raised above, there's simply no need for an entire guideline on how to use spoiler tags--nor should the use of spoiler tags really be encouraged more than it already is. That said, I'm really quite ambivolent about it and, thus, fail to see how such a trivial matter could spark such a lengthy discussion. AmiDaniel (talk) 01:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I hope that y'all mean "keep, reject and esperanzify" as opposed to "delete", no? Spoiler warnings, for better or worse, have been with us for a long time... --Iamunknown 01:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or at least mark historical. If these tags were confined to works released in the last 5 years or so, then it would be acceptable, but there has been a drive to keep them on any literary work, ever; we've seen them on Shakespeare plays and even a book of the Bible. This is unencyclopedic and absurd. *** Crotalus *** 01:27, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Flat delete, do not mark historical, do not Esperanzify. Spoiler warnings are silly things to put into encylopedia articles, which by definition have to discuss endings, plot twists, etc. The time taken up by sterile disputes about spoiler tags is ridiculous--I've even had arguments about whether Odyssey or Medea should have spoiler tags, and those works of literature are 2500 years old. We don't need a guideline about an unnecessary template; we don't even need to mark it historical, just get rid of it. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:28, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Discard per nom. Even if we don't want to get rid of spoiler templates, we definitely don't want to mandate them as part of the Manual of Style.--ragesoss 02:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I don't see how removing the guideline while keeping the template improves matters. That would increase, rather than reduce, the time-wasting arguments over spoilers. This already includes one important piece of guidance -- don't distort the structure of the article for the sake of spoiler warnings -- and can be further improved. Better a guideline page where we can reach a sensible compromise than a free-for-all. —Celithemis 02:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Guidelines are not overturned by deleting them. Tag it as rejected if it is, sure, but that decision must be made on the talk page. MfD isn't the right place. -Amarkov moo! 04:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong discard: The content disclaimer says that Wikipedia contains content you will find objectionable. Another warning for this is stupid. There's also the case of Wikipedia not being censored. Providing a warning to information is censorship. There's also the article untidiness and obstruction. I am stumped to their major use: plot sections. That's right, a section titled "Plot" has a second warning that tells readers "Plot follows". I am unsure about how removing guidelines works, but if this doesn't remove it, it will at least be leway to that goal. --Teggles 05:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Spoiler warnings are not helpful, I have found. They are merely a placebo, with people even moaning about spoilers even with a big honking warning. Matthew 06:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or mark as historical and do not use. Readers should expect that an encyclopedia article about a fictional work will reveal information about it, including any plot surprises. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 06:45, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nominator's arguments. Kariteh 07:14, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Close per MfD: "Nominating a Wikipedia policy or guideline page, or one of the deletion discussion areas (or their sub-pages), for deletion will probably be considered disruptive, and the ensuing discussions closed early. This is not a forum for modifying or revoking policy." Whatever the merits of this, and I can see arguments on both sides (lots of them, covering pages and pages of Wikipedia) MfD is not the place to consider deleting a guideline. AndyJones 07:58, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or Completely redesign. Either delete this, or make it a small unobtrusive icon at the top right of a section with spoilers, like the 'locked page' or 'featured article'. - Francis Tyers · 09:41, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete this misguided template. Spoiler warnings belong on fansites and book review sites, not in encyclopaedias. If you don't want to read an encyclopaedic article about a book or work of fiction, that is, an in-depth article which explains it in full, including the plot twists and denouement, then please go somewhere where incmplete information is the norm. Wikipedia is not such a place. Guy (Help!) 09:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. It's simply courteous: new readers might not know whether Wikipedia articles are likely to reveal the plot or not; the spoiler warning tells them that they do. End of story. It's completely harmless in 99.9% of articles. I understand the Crying Game problem but I'm sure a sensible solution can be found for The Crying Game that doesn't require the altering of every other article to fit in with it. The NPOV article is an absurd red herring: spoiler warnings do not encourage censorship, they simply permit choice. You should all go away and do something useful, like improve the Crying Game article, which is rubbish, and not because of the spoiler warning. Cop 633 11:21, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    They'll know it after the first article they read. New Wikipedia readers are also not likely to think that Wikipedia contains nudity or offensive language where appropriate; do you want to start tagging those? It is the idea of tagging content that is bad. Kusma (talk) 11:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"They'll know it after the first article they read." Exactly. It's discorteous not to warn them. And no, I don't see how tagging potentially offensive pages can possibly hurt anybody. Cop 633 11:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep to quote Wahkeenah: "You can write the intro a la Leonard Maltin, with no key plot giveaways, and you can put the spoiler tag, and spill all the movie's guts, and the reader has the choice of whether they want to read about the details or not." Arguments that NPOV is ruined by a spoiler warning are entirely specious as saying a game or movie or book has a some key points that may best be witnessed for one's self is not non-neutral. Also, a spoiler warning does not indicate a poorly written article, rather, someone has thought abut what's coming and is showing consideration for readers. As for people suggesting that a spoiler warning tag ruins the way a pages looks: how? It's not like a small line across a page will ruin the reader's immersion in a gripping article. Images go at the left or right of a page. If a small line across a page is ruining it then perhaps we'd better realise that an inability to adjust an image's location by a sub-pixel is also unacceptable, and we'd all better use exactly the same monitor with the same renderer on our browser, and the same font so that the artistic aesthetic is intact and inviolate. We can make ourselves the William Blake's of encyclopaedias through acts like these. Really, people are putting in spoiler warnings as a public service, same as any contribution to Wikipedia. Waerloeg 11:34, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or restrict to recently released films/books/whatever. From experience reviewing such things, it's difficult to comment on significant aspects of the work without spoiling something - and since we're an encyclopaedia, commentary > avoiding spoilers. The former should come above the latter. For newly released works, though, it might make sense to keep {{spoiler}} tags, if only because most people won't have seen the work and there won't be much commentary available anyway. Johnleemk | Talk 11:39, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, an encyclopedia will contain all information on a subject that it can, it would be slightly illogical not to expect "spoilers" in an article Alastairward 11:51, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep It has a great template and does not hinder one's use of Wikipedia, rather excell it. It offers a miniscule inconvenience in exchangee for a courtesy to all users. I have found it very useful when attempting to find key details without spoiling the plot. --Xallium (talk • contribs) 12:29, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep and request discussion to be closed based on violation of disruption rule (unless proof can be generated otherwise). I've said this before on the TfD associated with this page, but I'll repeat it here: Spoiler warnings are just that--warnings, not censorship. If we attempted to censor, the spoilers would be gone, kaput, vanished. And in the end, that's exactly what'll happen with the removal of the spoiler warning system. Remove the spoiler warnings, remove the spoilers. On the subject of unreleased fiction, articles shouldn't be created for those until their release, because what may have been rumoured for release once may not be released at all. Put this to bed, ladies and gents; you've successfully filibustered it to death. --JB Adder | Talk 12:36, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep as due courtesy to those who are reading the article. It doesn't harm anything, those who are searching for information are not stopped from doing so. And to those who are quoting "Wikipedia is not censored" this is in now way censorship - the onformations is always there for those who want to to read it. ViridaeTalk 12:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment if this deletion goes through, as a user, I will find a different site to use for referencing TV shows. Without spoiler warnings, Wikipedia will only be useful after I've watched a show - which is to say, nigh useless. --Dyfrgi 12:45, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep - The spoiler warning system in quite nessicary, and by no means should be deleted. Anyway, It'd make a lot of template removing work for everybody :-). Ryan Got something to say? 12:55, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I could just as easily say that they are quite unnessesary and by all means shoul be deleted. So why are they /nessesary/? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 13:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Calling someone a "tard" doesn't exactly help your cause, just makes it worse. Anyone else notise how the majority of, mmmm, EMBLEISHED types of votes (ultra, etc) are on the keep side? Perhaps that says something. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 13:39, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I ==really== don't care. This used to be a great place about information, but now it's become a giant beurocracy that is more concerned with following the ever-increasing number of contradictory rules and regulations than with being the worlds largest repository of information. I've had perfectly edits removed because some guy who has no job and edits wikipedia 18 hours a day decided that his opinion was more important than mine. There's a condescending tone given by all full-time editors towards casual editors, and it really ticks me off, because they all have one huge circle-jerk where they support each other and dismiss anyone elses opinions simply because they don't live and breathe wikipedia. So you know what? I stopped making edits. Fuck if I care if anyone learns anything useful or interesting; I'll keep the knowledge to myself and gain a competetive advantage over everyone else. When wikipedia collapses under its own ridiculous rules, I'll be laughing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.131.25.92 (talk) 18:59, 16 May 2007 (UTC).[reply]
I don't know what you're referring to, but I have found only two textual edits by you: one that had (among other things) "many now believe that Module 10 will never be released" and another saying "over the years". I don't need to argue against these, you should be able to realize the problems. --Teggles 20:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There's these things called "IP Addresses" that many ISP's randomly change, and thus many people in a single year can have the same IP address at different times of said year.
  • Strong keep - why throw this away? It's very usefull, because when I am watching a movie I don't want to know everything of the story already. Tukkaatje 13:45, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Delete. Per nom, Kusma, Doc glasgow, The Epopt, Zoney, Tony Sidaway, Akhilleus, Morven, Axem Titanium, and my own many comments on this issue in the past. Shanes 14:39, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep As long as everything is properly cited... spoilers can be just as encyclopedic as anything else. I understand how the people who want to delete thes templates feel, but if the template is being used for bad wrting then you should clean up the bad writing this is another attempt by people who would rather create beaureacratic policies to sklirt around an issue instead of taking bold action to correct what is really wrong on a case by case basis. It's the same thing that happened in WP:MSOF with succession templates on pages for fictional characters. Let's not let it happen here too. The Crying game example is ridiculous because categorizing the film as LGBT does not give away the ending. Does categorizing Will and Grace as LGBT mean every character in that series ir Lesbian Gay, Bisexual or trans gendered... no it doesn't. So what has been revealed by this? Merely that it is of interest to LGBT people... for all anyone knows, it may have a supporting character who is LGBT.--Dr who1975 17:37, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Our articles come up at or near the top of many search engine searches, so the person reading the article may well have had no previous exposure to Wikipedia. They just want to read some information on the book, film, play, etc..., possibly to see if they want to read it, go see it, etc... What is the harm of warning them off? The warning is so easy to disregard, it never seems to me to be in the way. -- DS1953 talk 17:51, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete, totally unencyclopedic. -Trampikey(talk)(contribs) 20:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrary (or not so arbitrary) section header

  • Point of policy
  • Note to closing admin: This is a guideline page. We do not delete guidelines, we merely mark them as historical. This is to (literally) prevent history from repeating itself. Therefore if consensus here is to delete, mark as historical instead. Under no circumstances must you actually delete.
  • Note on MFD: Note that it's actually not a good idea to vote on policy like MFD so conveniently seems to allow. Use the talk page instead. Discussion on the talk page of a guideline can easily overturn a decision made on MFD.
  • I'm sure the closing admin will know policy well enough and will read this comment, and the one above (that you posted earlier, and was also at the bottom of the page, complete with requests to post above it). There is no need for the extra emphasis complete with wiki commented <! -- warnings --> to post above it. What is stated here is no more or less important then what anyone else here has stated. (Please note I have not yet made a statement on this MFD) —— Eagle101Need help? 01:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • MFD is wrong venue for policy discussions. This is a compromise as it stands. Two options : Leave MFD open, albeit with caveat, or speedy close MFD as inappropriate venue. One is giving folks a break as per WP:IAR, one is following policy. Your call. :-) --Kim Bruning 02:30, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • For now I think it is best to allow folks to comment, there seems to be a large group of people willing to discuss this issue here, and as such it is probably best to leave it here, even if that is considered ignoring all rules. :) This seems to be getting a very large section of the community involved. Also may I please ask... why is it so important that your comments be at the very bottom of the page through this whole debate? Are they any more or less important then any other comment? I'm sure the closing admin will read the whole thing through, and the closing admin may very well say "ok this needs to go to XXX", but as I see it now, it is allowing some community debate to happen, and thats a good thing from where I am standing. —— Eagle101Need help? 02:41, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • It seems to me that it shouldn't matter at all in what venue the discussion is held, so long as it is held. MfD is as effective, if not more effective, at gauging support for the rejection of a guideline/policy as a policy's talk page, though it is clearly not the typical route one goes to seek the overturning of a policy/guideline. AmiDaniel (talk) 03:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Per several reasons. One, MFD is an inappropriate format for this discussion, and those who want to delete spoiler warnings are strong-arming not only the change, but what format we use. Less than a year ago BOTH sides of the debate were able to agree for an RFC format, and as heated as those discussions got, at least we had the sense to seek out a discussion format that would be fair, easy to follow, and helpful. Continue this discussion on WT:SPOILER and don't give in to strong-arm tactics. -- Ned Scott 03:45, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • This MFD was started by someone who did not participate in any of the previous debates (to my knowledge) so I wouldn't blame him for choosing the wrong platform. On the other hand, a debate is a debate, regardless of where it happens. MFD is just a name, just like RFC. Whether it happens here or there doesn't change the fact that discussion is happening and that discussion will be used to build consensus. In regards to your other point, who is strong-arming whom? Is reopening a debate such a crime? I've seen nothing but a desire to swiftly crush this debate from you and only after I called you out on it have you actually settled down to try to discuss. Axem Titanium 03:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Plus, this raises an interesting scenerio: if numerous established editors feel a guideline should be deleted, then allowing an MfD is a good idea. The nomination may have not mentioned everything, but that has been covered by others within this discussion. — Deckiller 03:59, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • I don't blame the nominator, and in reality I'm not really "mad" at anyone for wanting to remove the warnings. However, saying the format for discussion doesn't matter is simply not true. "I've seen nothing but a desire to swiftly crush this debate from you " Because you've assumed that you've helped make the situation worse and not better. That assumption couldn't be more wrong, and in no way was anything being suppressed or ignored. Just because the comments had not been copied over right away doesn't mean they were going to be archived away. I strongly respect the opinions of my fellow Wikipedians, even when they disagree with me. I've stood up for those who disliked spoiler warnings when they were not available to comment, when it looked like the "pro-warning" side was the only ones commenting. But hey, thanks for assuming the worst of me and painting a completely inaccurate picture of my intentions. -- Ned Scott 04:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Though it's a side point, I was vaguely aware of the RfC (or at least, it was familiar to me when I looked at it, though I'd forgotten about it when I made the nomination). I think I declined to participate in it, largely because I thought most of the things being discussed in it (most notably the question of spoilers and NPOV as considered there, where the issue was mostly about whether it's a POV to label a particular fact a spoiler) were kind of silly and missed what seemed to me the major points about spoilers. Phil Sandifer 05:25, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment—if this discussion is moved to a place considered more "appropriate", please allow for a transition period to advertise and set up the transfer before closing this discussion. — Deckiller 04:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • If the discussion continues here then such a transition would not be possible.. Of course everyone would have been notified and all comments would have found there way into the new discussion, but it's not really efficient to do that before closing, allowing the work of transition to grow as you are doing it. -- Ned Scott 04:08, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep: For the reasons I described above. I do not find the arguments for deletion all that convincing. Rewrite the article to reflect NPOV, don't blame the Spoiler policy for bad writing. Arcayne (cast a spell) 04:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete encyclopedias don't use spoiler warnings and as per the above reasons. DarthGriz98 05:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • If you had read the nomination, you'd know that they do. They interrupt the flow, make information difficult to be covered in the lead, and confine information to one section. The major use, placement in the "Plot" section, is utterly redundant. --Teggles 05:08, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • No, they don't. A properly used spoiler tag does none of these things. -- Ned Scott 05:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Unless you place the spoiler tag at the very beginning of the article, they do. Can you show me a spoiler tag that is "properly used"? --Teggles 05:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Let me give a simple solution - allow certain facts to be in the lead if they have ceased to be spoilers. Simple. Additionally, what's ugly about a spoiler warning at the top of a section? The header does a great enough job of breaking the flow from one section to the next. - A Link to the Past (talk) 05:19, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • I have a better solution: mention the spoilers in the lead, and don't give a warning. There's also the case of omitting information from the lead when WP:LEAD says otherwise. "Ugly" is a complete misnomer, I never said anything about that. My key points were information confinement (to a spoiler-tagged section), information omission (from the lead), and redundancy (plot warnings in a plot section). "Interrupt the flow" was only for when the tags are placed between paragraphs, not sections. --Teggles 05:28, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note I know consensus can change, and all that jazz, but people really should take a look at Wikipedia talk:Spoiler warning/RfC. We discussed each and everyone one of these points, and the comments there also apply to this discussion, just as much as the new comments. There we focused on the NPOV issue, the censorship issue, and the "considered encyclopedic" issue. -- Ned Scott 05:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • It should be noted, you focused on a NPOV issue - but it's not the one being raised here, which is that organizing articles around spoilers can violate NPOV. Indeed, I see no discussion of the issue of lead paragraphs in the RfC, which seems to me a very good reason to re-open debate. Phil Sandifer 05:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • We did discuss organizing articles around spoilers, and everyone thought it was a bad idea... It gives undue weight, it can restrict the format, etc. A misuse of the spoiler template does not speak for the concept itself. -- Ned Scott 05:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Which is why, notably, I nominated the policy instead of the template. There may well be something useful that can be done with a spoiler template, but a policy mandating that spoilers be hidden after templates, outside of section headers, etc. is a policy mandating that articles be written badly. Phil Sandifer 05:25, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • But I'm pointing this out more in response to some of the other comments I've been reading, and not so much on the one you've brought up. And also, I have no problem with continued discussion. -- Ned Scott 05:22, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Doc glasgow, we need not mollycoddle and insult the intelligence of our readers any further. RFerreira 05:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • That's awful reasoning. Just because it seems obvious doesn't mean we should not put up something to shoo them away if they don't want to read spoilers. Some plots are just short summaries of the basic plot, while others are a complete coverage of every event. And what about characters? A list of characters does not imply that there will be spoilers, but there often is. - A Link to the Past (talk) 05:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Mollycoddling and insulting" readers is a bogus smokescreen. Removal of spoiler tags shows utter contempt for the readers, taking away their choice and imposing the editors' views of the way the readers "should be" using wikipedia. In short, it's nannyism. Wahkeenah 05:32, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Ideally, the plot sections of every article would be comprehensive. However, since Wikipedia is a work in progress, we are not there yet. But we shouldn't make exception for that since eventually all articles will (or should) get there. Anyway, Wahkeenah, you never seem to say anything else. How is removing spoiler tags imposing on the reader? Axem Titanium 05:36, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - This guideline demands absurdly ripping apart the flow and text of an article to fit an ill-defined idea of a "spoiler" into a marked off section. It purposefully keeps relevant and important information out of the lead. It violates the spirit of WP, of disseminating information. It violates NPOV, by keeping points of view that are deemed "spoilers" out of the unquarantined areas of the article. This guideline needs to go. --PresN 05:44, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: I've already voted to discard, but here's a list of my points:
    • Make adhering to WP:LEAD very difficult, as it requires the lead to be a summary. You can not summarize without mentioning spoilers.
    • Confine information to a specific area. When you can only mention spoilers in a dedicated spoiler section, it makes development and reception sections less useful because the important spoilers cannot be discussed.
    • Redundancy. Warnings are very often placed in plot sections, but the "Plot" header already infers plot. Saying again is redundant.
    • Ignoring leeway of medical and offensive images, text. A reader may find spoilers objectionable, a reader may find genitalia objectionable. They are the same idea.
    • Point of view... what is a "spoiler"? It creates unnecessary difficulties.
    • Interrupting flow. Although this is not always the case, spoiler warnings allow to be placed in the middle of paragraph.
    • Obvious. An encyclopedia is a set of articles. An article is "a written composition in prose on a specific topic". A spoiler is part of a written composition.
  • I'm sure I've forgotten many points, but this should do. --Teggles 05:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, although I don't wholly oppose the use of spoiler warnings, at the moment they are being employed in an unacceptable fashion. Razing the whole structure, waiting a year, and then starting over on a more reasonable scale may the most effective way to produce a good balance for the long haul. As it stands, this page promotes behavior that is not compatible with our mission as an encyclopedia. Christopher Parham (talk) 07:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Ok, I think its time I drop in my two cents. I see several issues raised on this little discussion of ours :)

  • First off I note that there were and probably still are concerns about the venue of this discussion. My suggestion as to that is to allow this conversation to go on till its scheduled close. Like it or not there is much more 3rd party input in a discussion of this nature then any discussion that is generated on the talk page of the guideline. (I'm sure if this nomination were on the guideline's talk, there would not be half the amount of discussion that we have now.
  • There are decent arguments both ways, the ones that I find most notable are:
    • Guideline needs to go because of concerns over conflict with WP:LEAD. This may or may not be clear, but we do have the perception of a conflict, and that alone is enough for this argument
    • Guideline needs to go because its overused, I found this one interesting, as it implies that the guideline is not written properly as to insure that the tag is used properly. (more on what to do about that in a bit)
    • Guideline does state that article quality takes precedence over worrying about spoilers. (this was an interesting reason to keep). But in any case there is the problem that this guideline is being perceived to be "spoilers are more important then article quality". If not in word, then in deed, shown by some of the examples that I have seen. (ways to fix this in a bit)
    • You don't have to blurt out details about the article in the intro, only thing this approach has is possible Neutral point of view issues, but doing this means that we are altering our writing style around spoilers, something that this policy does not encourage (or at least is said not to encourage).
    • There are serveral other intersting comments about this as well, I've just listed the ones that I found were most interesting, though there was one above about how figuring out what information is considered a "spoiler" can be considered a point of view. Interesting :)
  • Now that I've listed some of the arguments both ways, I'd like to point out some of the possible resolutions to this debate.
    • Keep - Outright, I don't think this is a feasable solution at this time, quite a few editors have stated objections to this guideline, so some revision needs to take place.
    • Keep - but discuss elsewhere, also consider adding a disputed tag to the guideline itself. (It looks quite disputed to me) this could be done, though I would recommend that discussion (especially since so many editors are having issues with this guideline) continue elsewhere other then the page's talk, to bring in as many 3rd party folks as possible :). I would suggest a policy/guideline request for comment if this route is taken. It may come to a point that the discussion agrees to the deletion of some of the spoiler tags, and or comes to a different conclusion. This of course does not clearly mark the guideline as bad, and the result of this further discussion may well be keep and use in much more limited context, or other fixes. Who knows :S.
    • Esperanzafy - mark historical - this could be done, but it leaves the issue of what to do with all these {{spoiler}} tags that we have in articles, as this debate is more so on the topic of the guideline page, then the tags themselves.
    • Delete outright - This is the only one which I will come out and say I'd rather not see. It is useful to maintain the page, even with the historical tag on it so that others in the future can see what did and did not work. Deleting pages like this is just in my view not that great of an idea.
    • Speedy close of this MFD, and move discussion onto a request for comment and mark the guideline as disputed. (which it looks like it is). (I forgot this option :) ) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Eagle 101 (talk • contribs) 08:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC).[reply]
  • And with that, I'd like you guys to note that I have not really !voted here, but have given you guys some food for thought :) Feel free to discuss below here even if you have already voted above, there are more options then just a plain black and white, yea nay vote here. We do have the issue of what would be done with all the existing tags if the guideline is removed, and or if {{disputedpolicy}} is placed on it. I again would like to emphasize that there are multiple options and outcomes of this debate. —— Eagle101Need help? 07:29, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete with fire We are an encyclopedia. We give you information. If you have a desire to not see certain information, do not look it up on an encyclopedia. Do away with the whole damn spoiler concept. -Mask? 08:07, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Just because some people abuse it doesn't mean it should be deleted altogether. Spoiler tags are still useful for details that wouldn't make the lead. - Mgm|(talk) 09:05, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Additional comments: Spoiler templates do not violate NPOV. The information is still there and not hidden. The reader just gets warned. In cases were the ending of a piece of fiction is important enough to be in the lead, it should be, but there's plenty of articles in which that's not even near a requirement for good writing. Also, the no disclaimer templates guideline discusses things like "this article contains profanity" which is hard to define because opinions differ. Spoilers are information that would severely impact the entertainment value of something fictional. - Mgm|(talk) 09:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You are cherry-picking the arguments to attack, there is more reason to removal than that. Check my list of reasons, it's about 4 comments up. --Teggles 09:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I can't believe I read such an argument. Can you really not see how an opinion on what is profanity is EXACTLY the same as an opinion on what should go under a spoiler warning or not? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 12:25, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: In all seriousness, if consensus is to keep, I will be proposing a "Nudity warning" template for all sexual content. This is to provide a equal fairness - people who find spoilers objectionable should be treated the same as people who find nudity objectionable. --Teggles 09:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • A nude picture gives an instant shock but you'll probably still want to make out with someone afterwards, while a spoiler gives you an instant shock and then ruins a film experience or makes you not read the book. Bib 13:25, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep I won't weigh in on if spoiler warnings templates are a good or bad idea. But deleting a MOS page is a really horrible way of deprecating the concept. Policies, guidelines, and MOS pages that have fallen out of use or no longer has consensus are kept and marked as historical instead of deleted. --Farix (Talk) 10:37, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Common sense should be sufficient to all readers who read articles about movies. When you have read the table of contents of the article, and a section says "Plot", then it is more than obvious that the movie will be spoiled. Templates that explain the obvious should not be kept, and excessive use of such templates in different sections of the film makes the page look not so good, especially it often gets interlayed with other objects.--Kylohk 11:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all associated spoiler templates and replace this page with a text explaining that we don't use spoiler tags. Too much fancruft and overly long minute plot summary is being written under the guise of "spoiler". A reader should know to expect spoilers if they go to read a section called "plot" or "characters". All it does is encourage editors to add more cruft, removing which later on is an uphill battle. --Darkbane 11:29, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. I can't say that the spoiler templates bother me, but given the choice I'd prefer not to have them at all. It should be common sense to the reader which sections contain spoilers or not (the section heading "Plot" should be a dead giveaway). —Xezbeth 11:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: The Spoiler tag suggests editing your CSS to hide tags if you don't want to see them. A weak compromise would be to have the tags hidden by default, and tell people how to reveal them for themselves. Rawling4851 11:37, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I see this as a valuable template, yes people reading will probably have an idea that it may contain "spoiling information" but its valuable incase one forgets. Regards — The Sunshine Man 11:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]


  • Hissatsu Extremly Super Duper STRONG KEEP!!!! Spoiler warnings are very helpful. I'd hate to look up something, like a TV series, and get spoiled on a major event in the Synopsis. The spoiler warning alerts me that info I wouldn't get in the beginning of the series is ahead, so I won't find out Bob kills Joe. I think they're helpful, mostly because extreme spoilers are put within them. Sometimes a plot summary has no spoilers, and sometimes it might have a detailed explanation on the ending. How am I supposed to know without spoiler tags? I mostly looks up fiction before buying it or downloading it, and what's the point if I know how it ends? Pyrgus 11:44, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep: Agreed, there are cases where spoiler warnings are redundant (i.e. The Crying Game), but there are many cases where a spoiler can be introduced in its own area without affecting the rest of the content. You don't need to know the endings of Pulp Fiction, The Sixth Sense or The Lord of the Rings to understand their significance. As somebody else mentioned above, there is no actual censorship going on: the reader has the choice to read the spoiler, while the editor has the power to keep spoiler material on a page while debating whether it is 'encyclopedic' or not. I frequently use Wikipedia to quickly review a possible book or movie before buying/borrowing/watching it, and appreciate being able to read a synopsis and information about the book without worrying that I will accidently spoil the book/movie for myself. User:Gaurav, currently not logged in from 137.132.3.11 11:51, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep: It's a courtesy to users to make it clear when plot points are being revealed. If someone wants to read on then that's their call. Yorkshiresky 12:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: What would this mean for Template:Magic-spoiler and Template:Solution? (Sorry if this has been mentioned before, I have not read every comment.) --RazorICE 11:52, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I would think so, personally. I've always found them even sillier than 'normal' spoiler warnings, myself. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 12:21, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete -- these serve no real purpose, they aren't encyclopedic, and they possibly violate WP:SELF. A lot of articles have plot summaries. It's obvious that the plot summary is going to have spoilers in it, so why do we need the tag? Are people really reading the plot summaries for articles and being surprised when there are spoilers? If so, who are these people? -- MisterHand 12:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep. Just because it's an encylcopedia doesn't mean that no consideration for others is required. People deserve to be warned if they are about to see something that will affect their enjoyment of a work of fiction. Brisvegas 12:27, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. If the spoiler policy is being misused in articles, then fix it in those individual cases, or modify the policy to adapt in special circumstances. In the majority of cases I can't see why this policy is a problem. You can even disable the display of the spoiler warnings with a very easy monobook.js modification. Deletion is way over the top. - Phorque 12:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    It would be more acceptable if people would have to opt-in to see spoiler tags. Encyclopedias do not have spoiler tags. Kusma (talk) 12:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep: While I understand that users have concerns that spoiler warnings are unencyclopedic, their use is a critical aspect for usability - users will be turned off by an encyclopedia article that, for example, tells them all about the fictional Severus Snape's infamous murder. I can't imagine why this is being MfD'd and TfD'd - while we are here to build an encyclopedia, and an encyclopedia should concern itself not only with the production of reliable, verified content, but also in the format presented to the viewer. Since any viewer would appreciate a warning before a spoiler, it's a simple question: do we serve our editors, or our readers? This also applies to articles where spoilers from outside topics are relevant, which will use the {{spoiler-other}} template to warn readers that even though they are not reading an article on a topic, they may regardless see spoilers for something else. The interconnectedness of such information negates the argument for "well, don't read the article then." Further, I don't see how spoiler warnings, of all things, violate NPOV - their purpose is as a courtesy to the reader, and isn't in and of itself a point of view. I haven't seen any spoiler templates yelling that a book sucks yet, or for that matter that you must read a particularly eloquent book. Further, some users say that they promote cruft in summaries. How would their removal affect the amount of cruft added to an article? The same user who sees a spoiler template is liable to do the same thing with a plot summary header, which we obviously aren't nominating for deletion, since it's a critical section of the article. If you see fancruft, edit it out, fix it! In addition, I'd like to point out that spoilers are somewhat of a different issue from that that Wikipedia is not censored. Censoring is for information which is liable to disturb a viewer, and we don't use it. It should be noted that at a movie theatre, we are never warned about spoilers - although we may be warned about disturbing content, spoilers are clearly not among them -it's not the same issue. Don't complain about a harmless and ultimately useful template, and further, I hate to see people trying to push this with a simultaneous MfD and TfD, this is clearly a case of WP:POINT, when it's simple to hide spoiler tags anyway using personal CSS. I'm reasonably sure that this will end without consensus. Nihiltres(t.c.s) 12:39, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral – I can't agree that a spoiler warning is a 'contradiction of' the Wikipedia:Lead section guideline. I do, however, agree that they are extraneous and intrusive in an encyclopedia. Personally, I'd follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Spoiler warning#Turning spoiler tags off; that way they don't bother me, and we don't have gentle readers upset that they've been spoiled. (Of course, at the moment, that means the TfD notice still appears.)
  • Perhaps readers shouldn't be looking up articles related to books they have not read/movies they have not seen. But they do, if only because they want to see who the director is, or who it stars. While the amount of content covered by spoiler tags has grown ridiculous (the entire article in some cases, half the article in some cases – see X-Men: The Last Stand, in which the cast list is apparently a spoiler), that needs to be fixed by editors, not a deletion of the template. My hastily-written two cents. — Madman bum and angel (talk – desk) 12:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - One would expect an encyclopedic entry to contain all the details about the subject - if you don't want a spoiler, use a resource with less information.PGWG 12:59, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mark historical. Spoilers exist in encyclopedias, and we're not here to babysit our readers. It's about time we removed those annoying notices. I can appreciate accidentally stumbling upon an article for a book you haven't read, but what about people who stumble upon articles with nudity? It's a slippery slope. Wikipedia is not censored, and we're not here to editorialize. --Chris (talk) 13:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep. I really can't see how it violates NPOV moving plot twists and so forth out of the lede. Apropos The Crying Game: this is the exception in the significance of spoilers. Does it violate NPOV to not mention the identity of Tyler Durden or Keyser Soze or the end of Se7en or whatever in the summary? It's perfectly possible to create a standalone mini-article without revealing the last five minutes of a movie. Even in the case of the Crying Game, it'd be sufficient for the lede to say that it deals with gender issues and is considered to be a significant film for LGBT studies or whatever. It can then elaborate after the warning. I often look to wikipedia for some info about a film before I see it that might not be covered by IMDb, or for some details about a TV show that may have episodes that have been shown in the US but not the UK. If this goes ahead I'll be forced to stop using wikipedia for anything like that. --ascorbic 13:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    As Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a movie guide, it is perfectly okay if you choose not to use it as a movie guide. Kusma (talk) 13:27, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Whis is exactly why I'd want to read an article here rather than looking at IMDb or Rotten Tomatoes. If I want to read something encyclopaedic about a film I haven't seen then I won't be able to use wikipedia. And yes, it is possible to want to read something like that before seeing a film. --ascorbic 14:45, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep This is a harmless courtesy to readers. I want to be warned before I read about the ending of a fictional work. Oce I have read it, I can't "un-read" it. Wikipedia is something new under the Sun and can have conventions like this that aid its readers.--13:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
And once you see a disturbing image, you can't "unsee" it either. And as others have said, it's POV to descide just WHAT should be go under spoiler. You mention ending. How about something halfway? In the first fifteen minutes of a film? Middle of the first season on a seven season TV from ten years ago? Etc etc. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 13:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This template is/should be primarily used on articles regarding items of contemporary entertainment. Part of what makes some subjects entertaining is the suspense and surprise. And there doesn't need to be a time limit on it: heck, I haven't seen Psycho yet, so being able to just skip past the spoilers on that article and get down to the Production section will keep things fresh for when I finally get off my arse and check it out from the library. Sure, paper encyclopedias generally don't include spoiler warnings, but WP:PAPER... RTucker 14:13, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Psycho is probably, I'd wager, the very sort of article that is made worse by the need to write around spoiler warnings, similar to the main examples of The Crying Game et al given above. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 14:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Clearly you haven't actually read the Psycho article, which is doing great, has been labelled a 'good article', and includes plenty of writing about the plot, including an entire section on the shower scene. All this despite that evil spoiler tag. Cop 633 14:37, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Snape kills Dumbledore Keep What makes spoilers so significant is that once you've read one, you can't just ignore it the way you can anything else (legal or medical advice, porn). If the spoiler template is deleted, either spoiler warnings will be typed by hand -- and be much less uniform in wording -- and endless revert wars will result, or else the public will criticize our coverage for containing unnecessary and unwarninged spoilers. Either way, our coverage of our strongest subject will be weakened as far as the public is concerned. NeonMerlin 14:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • What the hell? You can't just "ignore" porn or medical content. I have seen this argument before and it makes NO SENSE. It really doesn't. When a child has seen a dead body... he's seen a dead body. It can give him nightmares, etc. Also, I highly doubt the "public" will criticize for unwarned spoilers and not the nudity and medical content. --Teggles 19:24, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep - Let's be realistic for a second. Is the primary goal of Wikipedia just to be a resource of information, or do we want it to be a USABLE, FUNCTIONAL resource of information? If all you do is throw information up on the screen without kind of differentiation between PLOT SPOILERS (sorry, but cast information/character lists in writings/names of authors are not spoilers) and the rest of the material, you're going to wind up with a resource that nobody wants to use. People want to look up information on a work of fiction or an author they're unfamiliar with, that's great. They shouldn't have to get slammed with things they don't want to know, because it's going to make wiki into something that people don't want to use and don't find pleasant to visit. Wiki can't just be a repository of all information ever. It needs to be a repository that people might actually want to look at. Alternative Suggestion - Simply delete all spoilers. ALL. It's the only other viable option - remove plot information from all articles about fiction on wiki. --Bishop2 13:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep — No harm is done by alerting people who haven't read/seen a story yet that they may not wish to know all details of the plot. If they do want to, the warning isn't stopping them. The alternative is to have two versions of articles, with and without spoilers, which seems unnecessary duplication.
    —wwoods 16:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • No harm is done? Okay, great. Let's just add game cheats, a game guide, original research and a price list! It doesn't harm anybody! This is a pathetic argument. --Teggles 19:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Well, to begin with the first time I watched Psycho, I knew pretty much every single thing that happens in the move, but I was still shocked by the shower scene -- & enjoyed the experience. (I didn't know there was a detective character in the movie, though; he was a surprise for me.) Second, if you don't want the ending of a movie or book ruined, maybe you shouldn't read the Wikipedia article. Lastly, maybe someone should add to WP:NOT that "Wikipedia is not a substitute for reading the book or watching the movie"; the only reason I can see why an article needs more than a summary about the plot -- preferably not more than four sentences, but not as short as Woody Allen's summary of War and Peace ("It's about Russia."). Having written all that, I honestly can't find it in myself to care how this issue is decided: by consensus, by "one moron, one vote", by finding out who has the loudest voice & the strongest legs, or even Jimbo ex machina. I'm just going to abide by whatever gets decided if it's relevant to whatever I'm doing. -- llywrch 17:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion moved from TFD

Moved to its own subpage Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Policies/Wikipedia:Spoiler_warning/Tfd

non-deletion discussion

As this is apparently no longer a deletion discussion, let us think about what is wrong with the current use of spoilers again.

  • They make editors decide the order of presentation not by what makes the best encyclopedic article.
  • If a work of fiction is most notable for a plot twist, then that belongs in the lead section.
  • They are often redundant:
  • Use in "Plot" sections: There is no need to warn people that information about the plot may be found in such a section
  • They appear in serious articles that do not carry spoiler tags in any other encyclopedia:
  • People are commonly using spoiler tags on the Bible, the works of Shakespeare, Homer, or Dickens

The first point could be addressed by making it clear that WP:LEAD always takes precedence, but it is not clear whether people will follow this in practice. The second point could be addressed by prohibiting spoiler tags in sections that are already clearly marked by their section title. The third point could be addressed by only putting spoiler tags on works that are newer than a month.

Whatever the outcome of this discussion will be, it seems clear that a large number of people wish to see a significant reduction in the use of spoiler tags. If spoiler tags are not to be deleted outright, they will need to be strictly limited in their use and not allowed to grow wild again like they do now. Kusma (talk) 13:10, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Please read the above, folks. Virtually all those wanting to maintain the present use have not dealt with these objections; they just say "But I like it!" without concern for addressing these pertinent concerns. Some people have not been helpful with one-liners like "Delete, not encyclopedic", but these are valid issues — we should not be splashing these all over the place so liberally as we do now. Like it or not, when the choice is between writing a proper article and avoiding spoilers, we must go with the former. In some cases, there is no conflict between these two goals; but in cases where there are, our encyclopedic nature comes first. Johnleemk | Talk 14:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with this, plus CzechOut's excellent "rant" at the beginning of the delete debate. If an outright rejection of spoiler warnings altogether is not accepted, perhaps spoiler warnings could be limited to use only in, say, articles on movies still at the theatre or in the new releases section of the video store, and television episodes of the current season. That way, spoilers can be left only for those items that readers might be expected to only be recently aware of and which they might currently be contemplating seeing. As for books, "recentness" might not be considered as helpful, but the use in, say, Catcher in the Rye (in which there isn't even an ending template; almost the entire article is considered "spoiler") is completely ridiculous. Lexicon (talk) 14:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, I think a proper article about fiction containing spoilers needs a spoiler warning. Now what? --87.189.89.215
    Well you could explain why, perhaps. Why do you think an encyclopedia article needs to carry a warning to tell the reader that he may learn something he doesn't know? Isn't it implicit in the purpose of writing an encyclopedia article that it will contain mostly information that the reader doesn't know? --Tony Sidaway 14:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    What's at issue here is information some readers specifically do not want to know.--agr 14:50, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:NOT#PAPER, we have the opportunity to offer both sets of informations for both kind of readers: The one wanting to look up an actor or a budget or the one wanting the while shebang. Why do you want to remove that opportunity? --87.189.89.215

Comment: Why are people intentionally posting spoilers in this spoiler warning RFC? Doesn't that violate WP:POINT? Ken Arromdee 14:32, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not really. The "spoliers" in this discussion are used as examples to prove a valid point, not to disrupt. Lexicon (talk) 14:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
By spoilers here, does Ken simply mean that people are discussing the plots of books, films, television shows and plays? I'd say that they are doing so, but that it's seldom disruptive to do so. The "Snape kills Dumbledore" spam was a rare and exceptional case where the intention was to spoil enjoyment rather than inform or engage in legitimate comment. --Tony Sidaway 14:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is my view that the use of spoiler templates/warnings ought to be retained, but modified. In no case should content be omitted from an article to avoid a spoiler, and rarely should it be put in a different place in an article (the lead to an article about an unreleased or very recent work should probably not include major spoilers: for example "Snape kills Dumbledore" should not have been in the lead of the relevant article in the week that the book was released, IMO. WP:NPOV must always trump spoiler protection. If there was a consistent way to mark spoiler warnings so that those with a suitable preference setting or css setting would not see the warnings, this would be good, but IMO such warnings should default to being seen by non-logged-in users. As for their use in section labeled "plot" or the like, yes in a sense they are redundant there, but not all plot sections contain significant spoilers, indeed not all plots contain the sort of twists that make their endings a 'spoiler. More importantly, humans are not perfectly logical beings, we sometimes need a reminder about things that ought to be obvious. I think that in spite of the technical redundancy, having spoiler warnings on, or within, sections labeled "plot" or the like should not be prohibited or discouraged. It is mentioned above that most encyclopedias don't use spoiler warnings at all, or do so in a much more limited way than wikipedia. This is true. But most other encyclopedias don't cover fiction and popular culture in nearly as much detail as wikipedia does, and don't include nearly as much plot detail. Given that difference, a different approach to spoiler warnings seems warranted. I do think that some changes should be made, however. My suggestions are:
    1. Spoiler warnings should not be used on classic, widely known works such as the Bible, the plays of Shakespeare, or the works of Homer.
    2. However, spoiler warnings should not be limited to recently released works -- many long relased works are new to particular readers.
    3. Significant facts should not normally be omitted from an article lead merely to avoid spoilers. This may be temporarily suspended for unreleased or recently released works.
    4. There should normally be a marker used to indicate the end of a section that contains spoilers, if a spoiler warning is used.
    5. Editors should be urged to consider whether plot details are really "spoilers". Works where the plot details are relatively obvious and not in any way surprising, and no attempt seems to be made to surprise the reader should probably not have spoiler warnings used at all.
    6. Plot sections in general should be reduced in size ans scope. WP:FICT calls for this now, but is widely ignored.
    7. The use or non-use of spoiler warnings in a particular article should be a matter of consensus among the editors of that article, to be determined on its talk page, just as with all other matters of article content. Drastic changes without consensus are discouraged.
    8. The general format of spoiler warnings should be uniform across wikipedia, and should be a matter of general consensus. Drastic changes should not be made without seeking consensus for the change.
  • I hope that these suggestions will be useful in this discussion. DES (talk) 14:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • It is bad enough that there are spoiler warnings in our pop culture sections, but the part of our content that is also present in other encyclopedias should not look less professional. Oh, and articles like List of suicides don't need spoiler warnings at all (but my removal got reverted anyway). Kusma (talk) 14:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • User:DESiegel (DES), most of that sounds reasonable. I'd expand that to say that we shouldn't normally put unnecessary warnings into articles. We should instead put a note into the site disclaimer saying that the full plot of fictional works will be disclosed in an appropriate manner dictated by our relevant content policies, and no extra warning will be given. We don't put nudity warnings into our articles about famous artists or anatomy, we just have a notice in the site disclaimer. --Tony Sidaway 14:51, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yes, we could do it that way -- it would be consistent. i think it would not get consensus, and i strongly suspect that it would lead to frequent edit disputes when some editors attempted to remove information that constituted spoilers, and to significant dissatisfaction on the part of a subset of our readers. If that is our policy choice, i will of course go along, but I don't think it would be the wisest possible choice. A general disclaimer, while logically equivalent, simply does not have the impact that a specific one does. And yes, I agree that a similar argument could be made for nudity and other content that is offensive to some readers, and i don't want such warnings. The difference is IMO that lots of people want to remove or hide all such content, and warnings might encourage this, and also that people might depend on such warnings in ways that we cannot guarantee would always work. Whereas the perceived "harm" of seeing a spoiler is far less, so if someone reads a spoiler that doesn't have a warning, there will be Far less in the way of violated expectations, IMO. DES (talk) 16:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Actually after making the above suggestion I went to look and found, to my surprise, that our content disclaimer already warns of spoilers, in very large letters. I've changed my opinion on this: I now believe strongly that spoiler warnings are nearly always an unnecessary intrusion on articles. They should never be used except when there is a very strong justification. Perhaps for the first month of Snape Kills Dumbledore, or perhaps not. --Tony Sidaway 16:52, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • Tony, if someone uses Google to find information on a book or movie, such as John LeCarre's novel The Honourable Schoolboy, and the Wikipedia article on the novel tops the list of search results (as it did in 2005 when I first searched for it), what percentage of people do you suppose will consult the content disclaimer before reading the article? Maybe, 0.000001%? -- DS1953 talk 18:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: People seem to be ignoring the fact that sexual content, medical content, profane content and violent content are not warned on Wikipedia, which I am adamant almost everyone will defend. Yet all "keep" voters are shouting "be courteous"! It doesn't make any sense, they are no different. A person may find spoilers objectionable, a person may find nudity objectionable. More bizarre is the fact some people claim you can't "un-read" spoilers - what? You can't "un-read" nudity either. They are really no different. Even worse is I saw a person yelling "apples and oranges". Yeah, we're allowed apples, bananas, pears, peaches, kiwis and passion fruit, but oranges are different! --Teggles 19:39, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Using hysterical hyperbole does not help your argument. --Farix (Talk) 19:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why spoiler warnings are not only bad practice: they're unnecessary

The ugliness of spoiler warnings and the way they skew our writing and interfere with the execution of Wikipedia policies and guidelines such as Neutral point of view (WP:NPOV) and Wikipedia:Lead section (WP:LEAD) has already been discussed.

What I'd like to address here is why they're unnecessary. Firstly they're unnecessary because this is an encyclopedia. Unlike the fictional works we write about, the value of our work does not rely on maintaining suspense, and (as discussed earlier) in fact hiding information from the reader or confining it to carefully corraled areas of the article distorts our work. Secondly, the reader is aware that he is reading an encyclopedia. If he's reading the article, it means he wants to know about the subject. Warning him that he may learn something he doesn't already know is superfluous: he already knows this otherwise he wouldn't have started reading the article.

Finally, we've had a warning in our Content disclaimer for years, years. The current version has at the very top, in very large words, the following:

WIKIPEDIA CONTAINS SPOILERS AND CONTENT YOU MAY FIND OBJECTIONABLE

So it's absolutely unnecessary. If we find people who really are stupid enough to come to an encyclopedia expecting not to learn about the subject of the articles they read, they can be pointed in that direction.

I'd argue that even that disclaimer is unnecessary, beccause it's implicit in the nature of an encyclopedia, but that's another argument and I don't mind the disclaimer because it's linked form every page without being thrust bodily into the articles to distract from content and distort the structure of articles, as our spoiler warnings do. --Tony Sidaway 15:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Comment. Spoilers, despite the arguments of some people above, do prevent people from reading information. The fact that there is no understood definition of what is and isn't a spoiler means that a reader has no idea just what is or isn't included in a section of an article marked with a spoiler template. Spoilers are subjective, they're based on the views of the tagger only, and the reader has no way of knowing what is and isn't considered a spoiler. As such, when a reader stops reading because they see a spoiler template and there is information within the spoiler section that he or she would have appreciated reading, he or she has been cheated out of what we, as editors of an encyclopedia, have a duty to provide them. As such, the warnings must go. Lexicon (talk) 15:14, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Spoilers are no more subjective than many other thing on WP. If you disagree with the way a particular warning is set, discuss it and change it.
Nobody stops the reader from reading. --87.189.89.215
  • Rewrite somewhere else, marking this travesty historic Like I said a long long time ago on the Spoiler RFC, "Spoiler tags are a dramatic violation of our encyclopedic tone, and as such their use should be constrianed to places where the value of the ending to the plot at large overweighs our desire to be completist with information. Examples - M. Night Shalaman movies. Most other tags should go." (note when I wrote this MNS had just released a new movie - spoiling it now is no longer a problem) Rewrite the guideline to make it clear that spoilers everyone knows that are central to the understanding of the work (BRUCE WILLIS IS DEAD), spoilers than don't ruin the work (THE GREEKS WIN THE TROJAN WAR) and spoilers that are trivial (DREW BARRYMORE DIES IN SCREAM) are not excluded from the lede or plastered with ugly tags. Hipocrite - «Talk» 15:15, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, once WikiMedia asks every person (or, say, 50%) on a particular plot point, and all claim to know it, the warning may go. Until then, don't assume everyone has the same media-consuming habits as yourself. --87.189.89.215
Now you've gone and done it! The Greeks won the Trojan War... Grrr. Lexicon (talk) 15:21, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I crap you not. Hipocrite - «Talk» 15:25, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So start a discussion on the /Talk about whether or not to remove it. Start a discussion elsewhere on how warnings should be applied. Just don't treat bad and good spoiler warnings the same. --87.189.89.215
We're having a discussion right here about how the warnings should be applied. The consensus appears to be somewhere between "never" and "sparingly," with your use of it on articles like Romeo and Juliet being in the distinct minority, 87. Hipocrite - «Talk» 15:30, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see a consensus like that. My recent rvs were just rvs of a mass implementation of the policy some would like to introduce. Whatever the result of this discussion, implementation should wait until it's over. --87.189.89.215

I see we have a spoiler warning on Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead. Left to their own devices, spoiler warning fanatics would have us rename the article because the title gives plot details away... - Nunh-huh 15:46, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Funny, but obviously ludicrous. Let's not undermine a valid debate by making up utterly insane hypothetical scenarios that will never come to pass. --Bishop2 16:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Unwell." --Tony Sidaway 15:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Even that would give something away. "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern May Or May Not Be Dead". There we are. Lexicon (talk) 16:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, but the public would interpret the redundancy as "beating around the bush", meaning they are dead. — Deckiller 16:07, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
How about this: Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Encounter A Novel Application of the Schroedinger's Cat Gedankenexperiment." Obscure enough to baffle the kind of people who care about spoilers, apposite enough to tip off the cognoscenti. --Tony Sidaway 16:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Or simply "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern May Or May Not Be Dead (But Don't Think We're Just Beating Around The Bush Here, We Assure You That You Really Are Going To Have To See The Thing To Find Out Which One It Is)". Lexicon (talk) 16:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
At one point, Darth Sidious had a "soft redirect" to Palpatine to avoid giving away a spoiler. I think the public understands that we contain spoilers. Or if they are so paranoid about spoilers, why would they blindly go to a Wikipedia page that takes a few seconds to load and clearly has a lot of content on it, thinking that the spoilers wouldn't be included? Spoiler tags insult the public's intelligence; they're anything but a "courtesy". If they wanted to come here to read about a product to see if they want to buy it, then they've come to the wrong place; we're not an advertisement service. — Deckiller 16:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
First, they assume that, like many other pages on the web, WP would contain warnings, since WP:NOT#PAPER.
Second, WP article should offer as much information as possible. If someone stops reading media articles because the contain spoilers, WP fails to offer any information to that person; on the other hand, a warning won't reduce the amount of information for other readers. --87.189.89.215
Couldn't the same be said, of, say a warning that says: "WARNING: Pictures that may offend some are on this page"? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 16:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. That's why Republicopedia or however the thing is called was founded. --87.189.89.215

While I initially comment to keep the page because I felt the MfD process was completely inappropriate to resolve this dispute. I do feel it is necessary to give my view on the usage of the spoiler tag.

I'm largely ambivalent to the spoiler tag as a whole. In other words, I don't think it neither helps nor hurts Wikipedia for these tags to be present in articles about modern literature and film. I also think that both sides of this debate are "blowing smoke". The presence of the tags will not lessen the professionalism or credibility of Wikipedia, but I also have to say that those who are saying that they can not edit/read articles on Wikipedia for fear of being "spoiled" if the tags are removed are simply engaging in hyperbole.

I do however agree that some editors often grossly overuse the spoiler tags. For example, no classical work of fiction or any work of fiction older then 20 years should ever have a spoiler tag anywhere on the article. The same goes for articles on recent works of fiction whose plot points are widely known. I also agree that having spoiler tags in a plot section or in a characters' bio is also redundant. Are the tags helpful? Maybe. Are they necessary? No. But one thing I must insist is that spoiler tags should never be included in the lead section of an article. But frankly, I don't think anyone who looks up an article on a work of fiction is do so without the intent of spoiling themselves to some degree about the work's plot. --Farix (Talk) 17:47, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Outstanding issues

Since the deletion discussion has essentially been abandoned in favor of a free-for-all, I'm going to make a vain attempt at adding some order to the discussion. As I see it, there are four major objections to this policy that I raised. Two of them touch directly on NPOV, which adds a third rail to this discussion - the onus becomes for those who support a policy for spoiler warnings to explain how this policy can be made to work around NPOV. Until the policy does this, it cannot continue to retain guideline status. The other two do not necessarily provide a necessity for the policy's demolition, but they are big problems none the less. I've explained the four problems below. I encourage supporters of this guideline to show why these objections can be overcome. Phil Sandifer 16:22, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Writing around spoilers (NPOV)

The nature of the spoiler policy is that it traps spoilers into specific sections of the article, demarcated by spoiler tags. By extension, things outside the spoiler tag are limited in what they can talk about. This makes it difficult to give proper weight to critical perspectives that depend on the spoiler. Sue Dibny absolutely needs to discuss her rape and murder outside of a plot summary section. You can't write a good section on critical responses to Citzen Kane and only discuss the ending in the plot summary. Other articles, like Valen or Alex Wilder, need spoiler content to put the character in any useful perspective. The spoilers are so vital to those topics that they cannot be exiled into particular sections. These are cases where the spoiler content is important enough that it needs to be woven throughout the article. Inability to do so necessarily marginalizes major perspectives, in violation of NPOV. Phil Sandifer 16:22, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree that the policy does this. In fact, it explicitly states, "The question of spoilers should never influence decisions about article content and structure," which is in direct contravention to your point. If these things need to be discussed where you say they need to be discussed, then the guideline we're talking about does not prevent it. JulesH 18:13, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Right, it might be saying that, but its not saying that prominently enough. As the many examples go to show, people are using this to structure articles around the spoiler warnings. —— Eagle101Need help? 19:01, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lead paragraphs vs. spoilers (NPOV)

A lead paragraph should cover all of the major aspects of the article, forming, as Wikipedia:Lead paragraph says, a short article unto itself. Some perspectives on texts need to be in the lead paragraph. If these perspectives depend on spoilerish content to be understood then the spoilerish content needs to go there too. The Crying Game has been the example I've been using most often, but there are others: Sue Dibny, Metroid, Taming of the Shrew. All of these have major perspectives on them that are fundamentally based on spoilerish content. These perspectives have to go in the lead, or else NPOV is violated. Phil Sandifer 16:22, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As per my comments in the above section, the guideline as it currently stands does not interfere with this need. JulesH 18:15, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No, the guideline as it currently stands has a tacked on bit saying "o btw don't mess up the article ok". That's pretty clearly just there as a sop to objectors - David Gerard 20:08, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's an untenable position that major plot points (not major critical perspectives) must be included in an introduction, in every case, and so no courtesy to the reader is ever called for. I'll also point out that the "German solution" that's been proposed is quashed by this assertion as well, since it describes "spoiler" information as appearing in sections or discussions of the plot per se. Even in The Crying Game, the facts are that the inclusion of a transvestite character attracted the attention of the LGBT community; and that the marketing of the film was marked by the distributors exhorting reviewers and reporters not to give away the twist. Deciding that our requirement to report these facts translates into "Dil has a weiner!" is just as childish as unencyclopedic as some of the silly examples of overwarning that have been enumerated in this discussion. I would be surprised, in fact, if the introductory section of any other encyclopedia (should it have a specific entry on The Crying Game at all) had this plot detail specifically stated. I would be surprised if this were true for Citizen Kane or any of the other serious examples here were, and have offered a donut--yes, a donut!--to anyone who can show me one. Demi T/C 21:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fuzzy definitions

The lack of clear line between spoiler and non-spoiler is a problem. I'll agree that Spider-Man 3 can validly be spoiled, and that there are good reasons not to discuss its ending right now. (Chief among them - the film is too new to have any critical perspective on its ending, so there's no good way of knowing if it's the most important thing about the film) I'm more skeptical about Spider-Man 2. I'm quite skeptical about Braveheart. And I think the idea of spoiling Birth of a Nation is ludicrous. There's some point at which it's just not sensible to keep shuffling information around. The guideline thus fails because it does not provide a key piece of guidance - when are these tags useful, and when are they not? How can that guidance be provided? Phil Sandifer 16:22, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why is the idea of spoiling Birth of a Nation ludicrous? Cop 633 17:13, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Because the film is nearly a century old. The important things about it are virtually all critical perspective at that point, not its aesthetic experience to a new viewer. To my mind, it's firmly in a category where nobody approaches it blind. Everybody who sees it sees it in the context of its impact and criticism, and so spoiler warnings are beside the point. The question, for me, is where that line gets drawn. I'd say The Godfather is at this point similar to Birth of a Nation, for instance - it's not a film that meaningfully gets approached blind. Phil Sandifer 17:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but that's simply not an objective thing to say. When I watched BoN I didn't know how it was going to end. Indeed, I was rather surprised by its ending. I certainly knew a few things about it - watched it knowing that it would be racist, knowing it glorified the KKK, and knowing that it was the first feature length film. That was all. If your argument is that nobody watches silent movies for the simple aesthetic experience, well you're wrong, mate - some people do. In fact, they should, silent movies are great! And if you're applying that argument to The Godfather ... well, again, you may know the ending, but many people don't. This debate about spoilers is very interesting, and raises important questions, but age of the work is not a factor in the discussion, I believe, and is not an area of 'fuzziness'. Cop 633 17:44, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hm. I don't think you're really responding to what I'm saying, exactly. This is partially my fault - reading my comment, I was unclear. Let me try again. There comes a point, and I think this point is correlatable with age, though not caused by age, where the critical response to a text becomes more significant than the aesthetic experience of the text itself. That is to say, where an article that is focused on the way in which the text is aesthetically experienced is just the wrong article to have. Romeo and Juliet seems the most dramatically far I can go on this scale - there is just nothing to say in 2007 about that topic that does not assume the ending to be known. It just doesn't make sense to talk about the play in an encyclopedic fashion as an unfolding event, which is what spoiler tags and concerns about spoilers by their nature do. But that's not because of age as such - age just makes it easier for a more fundamental transition in the way the work is received to take place. This is not objective, I'll grant, but I don't see why it has to be either. Phil Sandifer 17:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Let us not forget that the reader can infer that they die on the /very first page/. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 18:03, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You're talking about a very complex question. I think they're necessary when a significant number of editors feel they're necessary. What's wrong with letting people exercise their judgement? JulesH 18:16, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I think the point at which "the critical response to a text becomes more significant than the aesthetic experience of the text itself" is not something that can be pinpointed or decided upon by individuals. I'm with you on Romeo and Juliet, but only because, as Melodia points out, their death is expressly stated in the prologue. I dislike the notion that Shakespeare is not alive today as an aesthetic experience. Think of The Tragedy of Cymbeline ... which isn't a tragedy. You might think you know the ending from the title. But you don't, and the surprise can still be thrilling 400 years later. I'm not saying the ending can't be written about, I'm just saying a few warnings are polite. Cop 633 18:32, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And I think you are reverting a lot of well-reasoned and good faith edits by a lot of experienced editors, many of them admins. Is there really anyone left in the world who does not know the plot twist in Citizen Kane? Guy (Help!) 18:58, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
When I took a film course at university, no-one had seen Citizen Kane and most knew nothing about it at all. Several had never heard of it. Cop 633 19:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Then they might have benefited from reading our article on Citizen Kane. --Tony Sidaway 19:28, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fighting the taylorized robot hordes

Guidelines are dangerous things. If you make a guideline, people will follow it. With gusto. Hence the spoiler tagging of everything that has a structure that might be considered narrative. This is bad, and part of why we should be cautious with guidelines. This guideline, as it stands, does very little to discourage crazed and single-minded application. And that has done harm to a vast number of articles. (Night (book) had a spoiler warning once. That's just not good.) Small harm, to be sure, but harm. And who knows how many times articles got inappropriately re-arranged to hide things behind spoiler tags. How can this guideline be rewritten to discourage, rather than encourage horrifically Taylorized applications? (Generally, I find that guidelines that call for judgment repell the most Taylorized of our editors. I've seen very few people go on mad NPOV sprees, and far more go on mad "cite sources" sprees.) Phil Sandifer 16:22, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say the description of works it applies to should definitely be narrowed to fictional works. Biographical or historical works should not have spoiler warnings in most cases, I think. I don't see any reason not to include them in most articles on fiction, though.
The current text stating (essentially) that spoiler tags should not be considered when making decisions concerning the structure of the article perhaps solves some of the issues you're talking about, and I understand this text was added recently. JulesH 18:21, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We at the very least need to make it clear that not having a spoiler tag is the default, and that, like fair-use images, a good case has to be made for their inclusion in each specific article they are used in.
I personally can tolerate spoiler warnings in articles about recent works of fiction, especially where there is a significant secret that can be spoiled. Someone made a good point above - I think it was Phil Sandifer - that when a work has accumulated enough criticism and analysis that the importance of such plot twists is critical to discussing the work in general that spoiler warnings need to go.
This requires a judgment call on each article they are used on. It's my experience, as Phil states above, that too many Wikipedia editors prefer hard rules to judgment, and would prefer a short algorithm by which they can determine whether a spoiler warning should be present. Well, sucks to be them; you're not getting one from me. Use your brain. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 20:01, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Aim of policy change

I have another point to make: What is the aim of this policy discussion? I seem to see some voices who wants to get rid of spoiler warnings altogether, so this is what I'm arguing against. As with nearly everything, I see room for improvements for the way warnings are handled. --87.189.89.215

The way I've been reading your arguments, they are a defence of existing practice; you haven't been arguing against just wholesale salting of the spoiler tags, you've been arguing against reasonable claims that they are harming how we write the encyclopaedia. Johnleemk | Talk 16:51, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Of course I haven't argued against reasonable claims, else I would be unreasonable.
I support current practice mostly. I cannot see where I defended excesses, or warnings in historical works etc. --87.189.89.215
Here, here, here, here, need I go on? Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Read all my comments: "My recent rvs were just rvs of a mass implementation of the policy some would like to introduce. Whatever the result of this discussion, implementation should wait until it's over." --87.189.89.215
I suggest you stop. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That would be convenient, wouldn't it? --87.189.89.215
If you don't support your edits, don't make them. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:14, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So you think it would be useful if any disputed policy is implemented by both sides of the discussion during the discussion? I don't, so I revert it. You might have had a point if I had added new spoiler warnings to an article. --87.189.89.215
I know you're new here, but yes, guidelines are described by practice, not practice described by guidelines. The first step to getting spoilers off of Romeo and Juliet is not to edit the guideline, but to remove the spoiler. That's how we do things here, 87. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm far from new, and I know that changes are regularly made that way. I just don't think it would be the best way to proceed during a discussion like this. These changes are distracting and they are perfectly able to spoil any good mood which might have been prevalent earlier in the discussion. Now please don't claim that the articles are broken by the warning in a way that immediate action is unavoidable. --87.189.89.215
What ip addresses/accounts have you edited from in the past? Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Move this discussion on my /Talk. --87.189.89.215

What is a spoiler?

Isn't the very declaration that plot point X is a spoiler, and plot point Y is not a spoiler, original research (unless backed up by a reliable source saying "this is a spoiler," which they almost never are) and thus forbidden?

If I didn't know, going in to see Titanic, that Leonardo DiCaprio was in the movie, and I found my enjoyment of the movie heightened by not knowing that until he appeared on screen, should that information be considered a spoiler, and marked as such, to preserve the same potential enjoyment for anyone else who might see the movie?

If I figured out in the first thirty seconds of The Sixth Sense that Bruce Willis's character was dead, and I still enjoyed the movie, does that mean that information isn't a spoiler?

I'm curious to hear from those who support keeping the spoiler tag just how a spoiler is defined, and whether there's any objective, non-OR way to do so, short of marking the entirety of every article on Wikipedia a spoiler. (And before you jump in with "fictional works," keep in mind there are non-fiction books with twist endings whose enjoyment may be reduced by knowing the ending in advance.) Chuck 17:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Titanic was heavily marketed as a Leo DiCaprio film. Sixth Sense was heavily marketed as a film with a twist in the end and is discussed as such in pop culture. That seems to answer those questions. But I'm sure there are grey areas that are best discussed on a case by case basis... Cop 633 17:47, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So should a spoiler warning only be applied when a reliable source indicates that the information is a spoiler or twist? That would eliminate probably 99.9% of spoiler warnings in Wikipedia. Chuck 17:56, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If I o to Wikipedia to look up Sixth Sense, you may rely on the fact that I will want to know what the twist is. If I want to see a teaser which does not give anything away, I'll go to Amazon reviews or a fansite. Guy (Help!) 18:22, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Might I suggest that there might be others not just in our community but amongst our readership who do not share your personal views on spoilers? I rather disagree that providing spoilersis mollycoddling the reader; it is simply polite to let people know that they may not wish to know specific facts about the movie's plot. Whether a person has been under a rock, or has simply been living in a country where certain movies are either are not permitted to be shown (Cannibal Holocaust in Italy, Borat in Saudi Arabia and 300 in Iran immediately springs to mind). It is not unlikely that someone from one of those countries would want to know what the fuss is about, and still not want to know what the plot details are. Ergo, spoilers prove useful.
I agree that the few exceptions which have been brought up as demonstrations of the misapplication of spoiler guidelines are indicative of both the dissent within the community as to the definitions and usefulness of the guideline. Clearly, a great deal of those wishing to 'delete' the guideline are of the opinion that it is also unencyclopedic. I would argue that as an online encyclopedia, some internet conventions have been observed without significant public outcry - including the use of spoilers. It should be noted that the detailing of specific plot twists might actually get us sued. Film reviewers (as well as their parent newspapers) have been held liable for revealing plot twists of recently released films, as it damaged potential box office or DVD sales; we could be treading into this territory as well.
If the matter is one of misapplication of the template, then the best course is to educate the community on how to properly apply it. If the issue is that of usefulness, I think that avoiding lawsuits while providing what our readership wants and expects is entirely useful.
I think that perhaps the use of the spoiler tag does become stale after time, and its application to films over a certain age shouldn't require them, though I would would not want to hazard what that cut-off date should be. Certainly, spoiler tags shouldn't apply to the B&W King Kong, or other films of that time period. Arcayne (cast a spell) 20:01, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Last time I checked we have a spoiler warning linked to every page. Please keep in mind we are an encyclopedia. We do what is best for the article's flow, not shoving select information into select locations, unless the flow of the article dictates that. In any case, I would like to ask, how do we figure out what is and what is not a spoiler? That determination relies on the tagger's point of view. Cheers! —— Eagle101Need help? 20:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The base of this issue

At the base of this issue is a conflict of interest. Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia. At the same time we don't want to "spoil" our readers fun - for if one would have to constantly worry that somebody might "spoil his fun" for a movie or game, he would not use Wikipedia to inform himself about this thing.
Let me start with an example: You have noticed the Game "Super RPG Adventure" which is praised by your peers for its deep story and plot. So you look at the Wikipedia entry for "Super RPG Adventure" and read "... and in a twist ending, it is revealed that the player's enemy, which the player has been guessing for the entire game is actually RandomDude..." From a objective view, everything thing is fine, no factual errors etc. From a subjective view the reader will probably be unhappy, because he feels "cheated" out of a great game and storyline. In a non theoretical example, The Game (film), is based entirely around having the audience guessing what exactly - really - is happening. If the audience exactly knows what is happening, the movie is far less enjoyable. Spoiler tags allow Readers to stop accidently "spoiling" the film for themselves. So the question is, do we want to do away with spoiler tags and rid us of the burden of deciding what is a spoiler and what not, or do we keep them and thus prevent "spoilers" for our readers. As a editor, I would not mind either way, but as a user I'd like to look up Movies, Games and Stories without having to worry of finding myself spoiled. "Snape kills Dumbledore" - I wonder how many friendships got broken over those three words, uttered before the second party managed to read the book? CharonX/talk 17:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"If the audience exactly knows what is happening, the movie is far less enjoyable." -- And who gets to decide that? Chuck 17:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We're an encyclopedia. We provide the facts. Our readers know this and if they're too stupid to realise it then we gently point them at the content disclaimer. We're hard-asses, party-poopers. We're dedicated encyclopedists and in the decision on how to present the information the user's enjoyment plays no part. The readers know that and those who can't handle it avoid our site in favor of a fan site that will treat them like children instead of adults. --Tony Sidaway 18:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! We're not here to hold our readers' hands and insult their intelligence. This isn't a GameFAQs message forum (although certain Wikipedians treat it as such when they debate by acting uncivil, writing in caps, etc.) or a fansite; it's an encyclopedia, and we must treat all sensitive content in a professional manner. That means not providing ridiculous, common sense warnings. Go to the Penis page, and you'll see images of penises. Go to the Final Fantasy VII page, and you'll find out that Aerith dies. — Deckiller 18:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The thing is, if you think your enjoyment will be spoiled by reading a comprehensive article about the thing, then don't go to an encyclopaedia because encyclopaedias provide just that: comprehensive coverage (see wikt:encyclopaedia, in case it wasn't obvious). In any case the real argument here is about whether 100% of the spoiler warnings are absurd or only about 95% of them. Anybody who doesn't know the salient facts about the plot of Citizen Kane, Titanic, Gone The Wind, Casablanca, The Book of Ruth (FFS!) or the Iliad or whatever, obviously has a pretty good mechanism for avoiding spoilers without help from us. The clue is usually in the section title: "plot details". Guy (Help!) 18:21, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I would certainly be in favour of a change to the guideline stating that a spoiler warning is unnecessary in a section of the article whose heading makes it clear that it contains a plot summary. Warnings are clearly redundant in such situations. But having them in other situations, where you might not be expecting to see plot details, can be helpful. JulesH 18:24, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That would require warnings at the very top of many articles, as the header sections should, when valuable (which I think is "very often", and perhaps "nearly always"), include plot details. Lexicon (talk) 18:37, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No that simply requires us to not use spoiler templates as often as we do. We really ought to avoid using it in cases where the header of the section is "plot" or some other wording of that. I'm still wondering why we even need it, we are not narrating a story to folks, we are an encyclopedia :). Plus how do we determine what information is a 'spoiler'? That determination is inherently a Point of View of whoever adds the tag. —— Eagle101Need help? 18:46, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
While I said "header section" I meant "lead paragraph", which should summarize the entire article, and therefore include "spoilers" (and would, since it doesn't mention that it's a plot summary, require a spoiler warning). The fact of the matter is, a well-written article on a movie, television episode, or book, should "spoil it" within eight sentences. Lexicon (talk) 18:52, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yep and our content disclaimer covers that :) No need for these banners to be in the top of every article on a movie, book, etc. —— Eagle101Need help? 18:59, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
{{spoiler}} has some mildly useful purposes: in most video game articles it is synonymous with {{original research}}, and in an article on any book or film published more than ten years ago it's usually an indication that the article is dominated by fanboys and there has not been sufficient scholarly input. Guy (Help!) 19:05, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Let me tell you something about my kids. They love the Harry Potter films and books. They have watched the films at three or four times, and read the books cover to cover time after time. I've read Lord of the Rings six times, and watched the films four times. You know something? I still enjoy them. Yup. Pleasure not in any way spoiled by knowing the ending. Whereas having spoiler tags on King Kong just in case there is some poor sap who's been hiding under a rock all these years and doesn't know that (look away now) 'the gorilla dies, makes us look, well, silly, really. Guy (Help!) 19:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That brings up another point in relation to what is and isn't a spoiler, how do we determine what is and is not common knowledge? Aside from King Kong, Final Fantasy VII is another great example of this. The game has been out for 10 years, and has several sequels (1 film, 2 novellas, 2 games). According to all of their storylines, Aerith was killed by Sephiroth during the events of FFVII. Is this now common knowledge? If it isn't do we mark the fact that Aerith is already dead as a spoiler in the article on Final Fantasy VII Advent Children? Anyone who sees the movie (or even read about it) is already fully aware that Aerith dies, so is her death still considered a spoiler in FFVII's article, when the fact is advertised so blatantly? This is an example where calling something a spoiler is an example of POV. --—ΔαίδαλοςΣΣ 19:45, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We need a Spoiler Warning policy

Whatever people may say about spoilers, we need a policy about them. The policy may well end up saying "don't use them", but there still needs to be a policy. Just getting rid of the existing policy will result in a large amount of inconsistancy. People will still include spoiler warnings (in lots of different ways, since there would be no standard template), and other people won't be able to remove them without causing trouble if there isn't a specific policy banning them.

Once you realise that whatever we decide, we still need a policy, it becomes worth coming up with a policy that is a little more subtle than just "don't use spoiler warnings". We can have a detailed policy saying where they are and are not appropriate (no spoiler warnings in "Plot Summary" sections, for example). The various problems people are coming up with do not require removing warnings completely, they just require a more reasonable use of them. --Tango 20:15, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Err... we don't need a policy, at maximum if we choose to keep these at all, they would be under a WP:GUIDELINE. Policy is for things like blocking policy, etc. —— Eagle101Need help? 20:22, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
OK, guideline, then. The difference is purely semantic. It's not like policies are set in stone anyway - there's always WP:IAR. --Tango 20:58, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Other examples of content warnings?

Besides for spoilers, is there anything other content that we mark with warnings? I know we have templates related to character encoding issues (like Template:SpecialChars), but is there anything else? --- RockMFR 20:47, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well as noted above somewhere, there's a tag similar to the spoiler everyone is talking about, for magic tricks and so forth. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 20:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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