Talk:Karl Marx

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intro

I just removed some text from the intro. I had a couple of b=prbolems with it. My biggest problem with it, and my reason for removing it from the intro, is that it is just too much detail and complexity for the introduction of the article; the themes introduced in the quotes belong in the body. Also, it seemed argumentative (the "however" suggesting an argument). Also, by relying on quotes from marx to support unattributed interprestaions of Marx, it seemed to violate NOR. When these issues are discussed in the body it should be pretty easy to avoid these pitfalls. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

It's still too long, and contains tons of details more suitable for the body of the article. Youlookadopted 08:05, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

German Communist

I think that categorizing Karl Marx as a 'German Communist' is spurious. Karl Marx was a marxist, not a communist. The school of communism is different from the school of marxism. --24.163.65.156 21:48, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Marx called himself a communist, not a Marxist. There are many forms of communism. Marx was one kind, so it is appropriate to call him a communist. Look, a Chevy Impala is only one kind of car, in fact most cars are not like the Impala at all - but it is still a car, nevertheless. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:21, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Is the Criticism section really criticism?

Looking through the "criticism" section of the article, it seems to me very skewed towards defending Marx, there's a definite POV problem there. It does mention criticism, that's true, but it also counters most points with a defence, rather than letting the criticism stand on its own. It's like a debate where only one side has had a chance to respond to the other's ideas. I've altered some of it, but I'm now worried that if it's altered too much it'll end up like a game of table tennis with each side adding a counter-argument to the other's previous argument until the whole thing gets out of control. Surely the point of this section should simply be to summarise the criticisms, and let them stand alone without any kind of retorts tagged on the end?

For an example on the first point of criticism, before I altered it, the article claimed that pro-Capitalist sentiment was flawed because the gap between rich and poor has grown since Marx's time, but this argument itself isn't all it seems. If I meet two poor people who both have ten dollars, and I give one of them a hundred thousand dollars and the other a million dollars, both become vastly richer and will have a much better quality of life, yet I've created an enormous gap in their income which is much larger than before. Does that make the act wrong? Would they be better off with just ten dollars each? (In fact not just wealth but health, lifespan, workplace conditions and every other quality of life measurement have all vastly improved in democratic capitalist places such as the US and Europe since the 1800s, even among the poorest people.)

I'm also a bit worried about the politically loaded language in the Criticism section, for example saying that "the welfare state ... helped contain any revolutionary tendencies among the working class" implies the welfare state was some kind of deliberate capitalist appeasement of the poor, because the capitalists feared losing power. In fact in Britain and many other capitalist countries the welfare state came about simply because it was a policy popular with the majority of voters, and they voted for a democratic socialist party that promised to deliver it (in Britain this was the Labour party). The ordinary people themselves brought these events about, and no one mentioned protecting capitalism, even if that might have been an unintended consequence. Just because one thing happens to cause another, that alone doesn't mean that the first thing was a deliberate act designed to cause the second thing. You enter the realm of crazy conspiracy theories if you start claiming that motive is adequate evidence of guilt.

"Criticisms" removed

This is a bio article. There are plenty of articles about Marxism, and criticisms belong there, where they are seen in proper context. `'mikka (t) 01:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

New page: Influences on Karl Marx

I have created a new page Influences on Karl Marx, synthesising some of the material from the Karl Marx page and this one. Alot of it (expecially the french socialist influences, and the direct influences by Adam Smith and David Riccardo - as opposed to political eonomy in general) is still quite bare. Would be great for people to flesh it out a bit. JenLouise 06:39, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Karl Marx and (binary) categories

Karl Marx made quite clear (too clear, alas! - see On the Jewish Question) that he did not see himself as a Jew. Why force somebody into a religion and a nationality that he did not desire and that do not give a clear description of his upbringing?

The religion of origin of his parents is already detailed at the beginning of the biography here, so it is not a matter of concealing information. Rather - a) Judaism is a religion, in which Marx was not raised, and against which he had strong feelings; b) if we are to believe the article Jew, Jews are a nation - a nation into whom somebody can be conscripted for reasons having nothing to do with the religion or upbringing of the person. Very well, but then - where does that leave us? Under the rules of German nationalists, the French son of two born Germans is a German, no matter what he says. Shall we put Kleber under "German generals", then?

Marx seems to have believed that Judaism defined a nation against others. He did not believe in this or any other religion, though, to judge by the opening paragraphs of On the Jewish Question, he seems to have thought of himself as on the side of Christianity, and certainly did not think of himself as belonging to the nation defined (as he thought) by the religion. c) I certainly hope that nobody here believes that there is such a thing as the Jewish race. Marx would certainly have been classified under code 08, had he lived a hundred years later, but it is difficult to see what that says about him.

By the way, the use of German Jew at the bottom of pages seems somehow rather odd to me. It does not occur in xx.wikipedia.org, for xx = pretty much any language other than English. What do people here think of it?

--a

"a," you make some interesting points, but don't forget this is a biographical entry on Karl Marx. Marx's own opinions about ethnicity or religion as expressed in his works would probably fit better under "Marx's Thought." At any rate, Marx was born into a Jewish family, and that is a fact that needs to stay in the entry.--Dialecticas 22:04, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way, "a," is this: ... your IP address? The only edit this person seems to make is cutting Jewish ancestry out of entries (see edit on Leopold Bloom). What's up with that? It's more than a little creepy.--Dialecticas 22:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Dialecticas: this is indeed this computer's IP address. As you could see from the user-contribution page, the only contributions I have made are (a) my changes to Marx's entry, and (b) a slight edit to Leopold Bloom's entry, in which I changed the wording of the description of Leopold Bloom's family to what seems to me to be correct (and seems to have stood as such).

What seems creepy to me is to define people in terms of ancestry, above and beyond their upbringing, education and self-perception. Neither here nor in Bloom's entry (Bloom is an imaginary character, by the way!) did I erase the ancestry of the person concerned, or occlude it in the least. It is simply a matter of how you define a person, and of respecting how he defines himself.

Even if Marx had been devoutly Jewish or devoutly Catholic, we would have to respect the division between public and private spheres. You cannot define somebody in terms of his private identity (if there is one!) first. Should Marx turn out to be (say) gay, you could not introduce him as "a great gay philosopher"; his sexuality would come up later, in the relevant section, if it affected his life. This is even more so if he had been a deeply closeted gay man, or a gay man who never had gay sex, or somebody who thought of himself as a straight person but whom you have determined to be gay by means of your all-mighty gaydar.

The edit to Leopold Bloom's entry was based on the same feeling. What must have crept you out was the fact that I was making an edit from an IP address. If I had thought that somebody would have thought me some sort of undead creature, I would have got a user name to protect my privacy first. Should I edit any further, I will get an user name, of course. It is very probable that I will not, as I am not liking the tone of all of this back-and-forth.

"From a Jewish family" is one of those current phrases that seek to state more than they do and end up saying something rather doubtful in itself. It reminds me of how, say, the men of the Amistad have been described as African-Americans; the latter is a perfectly good label that people can apply to themselves - yet the reason why the men were not killed for having freed themselves was precisely that they could prove that they were not Americans.

Marx happened to be of Jewish ancestry; Judaism was the religion of origin of both of his parents. He did not grow up in a family that observed holidays, traditions and customs, for the very good reason that his parents had converted from Judaism. (At least his father had; I do not know about his mother.) How Jewish his early environment was otherwise (whatever "Jewish" means when applied to an environment!) is an interesting question; it might throw some light on "On the Jewish Question", which is (to say the least) extremely harsh and rather hard to read nowadays. By the way, I do not agree with how "On the Jewish Question" is handled later in the article - namely, brushed over. It is not a criticism of Judaism and Christianity equally, but a statement of opposition (not merely criticism) to Judaism specifically.

- a

"What seems creepy to me is to define people in terms of ancestry, above and beyond their upbringing, education and self-perception." - Yes, to me too, but not necessarily to Marx's contemporaries. There was an ethnic understanding of Jewishness as well as a religious one by this point in time and Marx would have been widely identified by others as a Jew, which would in turn have coloured attitudes towards him. That's worth bearing in mind, I think. Mattley ^(Chattley) 08:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree completely - yet (a) this is a case for not omitting a mention of Marx's "racial" origin (don't vomit yet - note the quotation marks! look ahead at the third paragraph if necessary), not for pinning the label "Jew" on him (or on anybody else who does not pin it on himself) in the very first sentence; (b) the word "ethnic" here (used also by Dialecticas) is very problematic; and it is precisely in this very problem that the issue lies.

"Ethnic" was an extremely uncommon word before the 1940s; it was sometimes used in anthropology as a synonym for "race", or for a "sub-race" or "collection of races" (see the OED). It came into currency when "race" became very unfashionable. It inherited part of the baggage of "race", in that it sometimes tends to denote a mysterious something that is transmitted by bloodlines. At the same time, one of the most common uses for "ethnic", especially at first, was as a synonym for a group of hyphenated Americans (also a problematic term!) - namely, Italian-Americans, Jewish Americans, Greek-Americans, etc. The second term is less common than the other two, at least nowadays and at least as a noun; this has to do with the early prevalence of (Classical) Reform Judaism in America, which emphasised that Jews were not a race or people, and that there were simply Americans of the Jewish religion. However, people think as if they used the second term when they think of (say) Katz's Delicatessen or bagels or Woody Allen movies as Jewish. We are talking about some cultural traits rather specific to some members of an immigrant population - cultural traits that, by now, have been selected, homogenised and packaged into something nice, safe and easy for everybody to consume. (Hence very little Yiddish theatre and very many bagels.)

There is no such thing as the Jewish race, period. (Whether "race" is a useful or healthy way to categorise human beings at all is another matter; for the record, I would tend to answer both questions in the negative.) Would Marx's contemporaries have seen him as "of the Jewish race"? Some did, to some extent; if I remember correctly (I am referring to a biography I do not have at hand), there is a letter from a friend of his to another rumouring that Demuth's son must be Marx's, as the former had the latter's "handsome purplish-black Jewish hair", or some such thing. Would Marx have seen himself as "of the Jewish race"? I do not know of anything showing that he did. At the same time, it is not impossible that he did; some people did at the time - and seeing oneself as "of the Jewish race" (or having some "Jewish racial traits") became fairly common in the late nineteenth century. ("Race" becomes very prominent in early Zionism - Max Nordau, Martin Buber - but it was not limited to it.) If somebody abandoned religious belief and practices, and lived in the general society - or, even more so, if he was brought up without Jewish religious belief and practices, and had always lived in the general society - he had to cope with being sometimes - or often - classified by both Christians and Jews under a mysterious category that described almost nothing about him and yet was supposed to be deeply meaningful. It is natural to try to tie such a phantom category to something concrete. In America, just about anybody who is "white" has the opportunity to describe himself in terms of his great-grandparents immigrant origins, under the assumption that this is all nice and tame. (A naturalised immigrant from Italy in the early 1920s was an Italian-American; now anybody with an Italian name can call himself Italian, and it is immediately understood that (a) he will not go fight for the king or Mussolini, (b) the real Italians live overseas, and will make fun of him if he goes to Italy as "a very proud Italian", (c) he has no direct connection with the actions depicted in "The Godfather", which, somehow, is in fact one of his favourite movies.) People in Europe did not have that option; hence, sometimes, an understanding in terms of race. Also: (a) one could think of one's racial traits as partial (if somebody truly looks "very Jewish", he is generally Armenian), and to be overcome if so wished, at least in so far as they were character traits; (b) the thought of oneself in terms of race neutralised the possibility that the phantom label would settle upon that of a nation, or a holy nation - that is, it protected one from thinking of oneself in terms of a history (largely a religiously articulated one) that one felt to be alien to oneself, that extended vertiginously into the past, that involved some extremely strong claims, and that was not the history of the country in which one lived, in which one had (generally) been born and educated (and in which, in many cases, one's ancestors had always been born, as far as the records went), and to which one felt inextricably tied.

Now, does this mean that we should describe Marx as "of the Jewish race"? Obviously not. We may, at some point in the article, remark that he was seen as such by some - and perhaps by himself, though I do not myself know of any evidence towards this - and that this may have had consequences X or Y.

Now, why should Marx not be described as "of the Jewish ethnicity"? (a) If ethnicity means "race", as in some technical literature, see the above; (b) If an ethnic group means what used to be called, quite imprecisely, a "tribe" ("the Igbo ethnic group"), then no; it may be a problematic term for the Igbo, too; (c) Marx did not eat at Katz's delicatessen. In fact, it is extremely unlikely that he even ate bagels, or even knew who Woody Allen was - or at the very least he failed to catch any his references when he saw him on TV.

There is another, perhaps more serious problem with *defining* Marx with the "Jewish" label, as opposed to describing the household that shaped him (including, if you wish, that his father had very likely converted in part for professional reasons), and mentioning his "racial origins" (quotation marks! quotation marks!) as they become relevant. ("Jew" or the workaround "from a Jewish family" (false in some literal ways, as discussed above!) are equivalent here. "Marx was from a Jewish family", as the first sentence of the biography, is equivalent to "Marx was a Jew" here: it is a definition. A precise *description* of his family is given immediately thereafter, so no additional information is being conveyed.) The problem is as follows.

As you will see in the page Jew, many people see Jews as a nation. Nowadays, most such people are either traditionally religious or Zionists (or outsiders who have adopted the discourse of either quite enthusiastically). Now, there were only a few proto-Zionists in Marx's time; the notion of Jews as a modern nationality hadn't quite arisen yet. (Though: see his friend Moses Hess.) However, the notion of Jews as a holy nation, as the chosen people - meaning *the* nation (or this is how Marx takes it) was extremely powerful - more so than nowadays, both among people of the Jewish and the Christian religion, given higher levels of piety all around. The holy nation will get you, even if you don't want to. See Who is a Jew?, and read it in the eyes of somebody who (like Marx) had absolutely no desire to be conscripted into a religion and a nation that he seems to have felt were quite alien to him. May this explain "On the Jewish Question"? In my view, yes, at least in part, and it may be discussed in the appropriate section, thought that might fall under the No Original Research rule. Does this mean that we must do what he may have felt was being done to him? No.

All of this may be difficult for some people in America to understand. In America, people are separated by their "roots" (meaning the countries or nations or labels in which their (favourite) ancestors happened to be born) by the Atlantic. The latter is an insulating body of water that keeps electric shocks from going through. (Occasionally, the insulation fails, as is now shown, say, by one or two young Americans who go search for their roots in Afghanistan in order to solve their identity problems - random controversial example.) In Europe, historically, the problem of nations has been a very serious business. Marx was a European. Take him seriously.

The fact that Kleber was seen as a German by some (including both suspicious French colleagues and just about any classical German nationalist, who, of course, would have seen him as a traitor) may have been a factor in his French patriotism. It does not mean that he should be defined as a "German general", or that his alleged Germanness should be his card of introduction.

A last word: "tag the Jew" seems to be a very popular sport in the English wikipedia. I have noticed it is also becoming fairly popular in the North American mainstream media; wikipedia just seems to accentuate certain trends. In the French media, say, this would be unthinkable - or is unthinkable for all except a few mavericks and monomaniacs working within current enthusiasms. (Compare to previous enthusiasms for all things Viking or Japanese; this is exoticism at work, and is probably uncomfortable for at least some people from Japan, or anybody who minds objectification, exoticism and enthusiasm.) The same is true of fr.wikipedia.org, for that matter. I cannot say that the French are not in the right here. This is a cultural difference in the writing of biographies - yet one for which there are excellent reasons, at least on the continental side. Biographies used to be written in the same way in America, but then the roots game started. That game, though, is no game. - a

German Jew?

Just starting a new section as the one above is getting unwieldly (mainly because people are not indenting). I've removed the German Jew category again. Marx was not a Jew, nor were his parents - he was merely of Jewish descent. Does everyone who had Jewish grandparents get tagged as a German Jew? Trious 11:48, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I posted a comment which apparently got garbeled beyond recognition. In short, I agree Marx was not a Jew and should not b identifid as one, period. However, Marx´s Jewish ancestry is relevant. That his father could not work as a lawyer in Prussia as long as he was Jewish, and that the practical solution was for him to convert to Lutheranism merely as an expediency, no doubt infomred Marx´s rejection of Brauer´s analysis of th Jewish question. Moreover, some (e.g. MacLennan) have argud that Marx, while disidentifying as a Jew, had some feelings of soliarity for other Jews, as he rsponded positively to the Cologne Jewish communtiy´s apeal for help on one ocassion. I wouldn´t give this stuff too much attention in the article, but it comes from a verifiabl source and is valid. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:12, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

We agree, then. Nobody was arguing for a removal of Marx's father's religion of origin, though reducing the reasons for his conversion to mere convenience is somewhat speculative. It is possible that Marx's ancestry belongs in a separate section on the background to On the Jewish Question, rather than in the introduction. Nevertheless, the dynastic writing of biographies seems to be a well-established habit - not necessarily a good one, in my opinion - and it is probably better to let the article stabilise as it is for now.

As for Cologne - Marx spent much of his time in the early 1860s defending and expressing his solidarity with American slaves, but this did not make his skin turn a rich dark-purple colour. Bellbird 09:39, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

His father? Surely Jewishness is matrilineal? mgekelly 14:39, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Re Cologne: the issue is not that he supported the Jesidh community, the issue is why he supported the Jewish community and with what sentiments. This is documented in a letter he wrote. Clearly his sentiments were different from those he expressed to explain his support for American slaves (or the Irish). Slrubenstein | Talk 16:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

"no doubt informed Marx´s rejection of Brauer´s analysis of th Jewish question." - are you a psychologist? Trious 10:13, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

It's simply a question of WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:NPOV. Reputable sources describe him as Jewish. He was unquestionably German. Of course he should be described as a German Jew.--Newport 21:38, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Like which sources? Sources also overwhelming show that Marx was an atheist, and that his father was a convert to protestantism. Trious 10:09, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't this all just boil down to the issue of whether an ethnic, but non-religious Jew is a Jew. Wikipedia has an entire article on this issue, Who is a Jew?. My feeling is that anyone who is either ethnically or religiously Jewish can be fairly described as a Jew. mgekelly 14:39, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

There are two issues here: one is whether his being of Jewish origin (which may be, but is not necessarily the same thing as, an ethnic Jew) is relevant to the article. I think it is and have explained why. The second is whethe we identify him as a Jew. I believe we should only if we have verifiable sources that he identified himself as a Jew (whether religious or ethnic is irrelevant). Unless someone can provide those sources, the category should go.Slrubenstein | Talk 15:37, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

OK I agree entirely with this.Trious 16:19, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Marx may not have been 'a Jew' himself, but as far as I'm aware his father only converted in order to be able to practise law, and his mother came from a line of highly religious Jews. In my understanding, his parents were definitely Jewish and certainly more than just 'of Jewish descent'. Somearemoreequal 20:18, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Also, Marx was an avowed internationalist, but we still refer to him as German. Even if he renounced his religiosity, then is he not still Jewish?? Further from this (correct me if I'm wrong), it could be argued that 'Jewishness' is of racial significance, not just religious. Somearemoreequal 20:23, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

A good point. I think Marx's Germanness is in at least as much doubt as his Jewishness; after all, he left Germany before a German nation ever existed, and I don't think he ever said 'I am a German'. 'German-speaker' is more likely. In light of the dubiousness of both the 'German' and 'Jew' parts of this category, perhaps it's safest not to allow it – unless, as Slrubenstein says, someone can point to Marx saying he's a German Jew. mgekelly 22:19, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Why do all our biographies have to begin with such identities, which are often inappropriate? It is relevant that he was born in Trier and educated in Prussia. It is relevant that hisw parents were born Jewish and converted to Christianity to escape discrimination. Surely we can communicate these facts in some elegant way in the firswt two sentences of the article without calling him "a German Jew." Slrubenstein | Talk 00:44, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

This is excellently put. I might add a nuance here, however. It is certainly true that one of the reasons his father had to convert was in all probability the fact that he would have been otherwise discriminated against. However, it seems apparent that he neither believed in nor practised Judaism. For many people of his generation, baptism was, to paraphrase Heine, a ticket into general society: it is not only that one was then allowed to enjoy the same rights than others (or more rights than some others, if one converted to the official denomination of the state!) but also that one could then see oneself as being within the same axiology as most of one's fellow citizens, or as almost all Enlightenment figures. The baptised man could sustain the same attitude towards religion as the man who was brought up a Christian - and that attitude may have been the most natural and honest one to him to begin with. Bellbird 11:47, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

KARL MARX WAS NOT A JEW!!

His father converted to Christianity when Marx was a young child and Marx follwed Lutherianism and denounced any dealings of Judiasm.

-G

What is your evidence that marx followed Lutheranism? Also, Marx did not denounce any dealings of Judaism. Slrubenstein | Talk 08:59, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes he was because he said it and yes he did because he said it. If you can't take his own words as evidence, then that's it.

-G

GA Nom failed

This article shows much promise. It is comprehensive, fairly readable, but still falls short of the GA standard in a number of ways. First of all, the article is very short on inline citation. Second, the lead does not meet WP:LEAD standards. Finally, the article itself is hard to read.

While not needed for GA status, I would suggest moving much of the material, especially in the section on Marx's influence, to other articles.

Please renom the article when these issues have been addressed. --CTSWyneken^(talk) 22:49, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

unbelivable!

i cant really believe this. this article is About Marx and it says nothing about his life. come on guys! what has happened here? i wanted to translate it to persian and i was shocked. there is not even simple talks about what happened in his damn life. am i really the first person to write about his history of life? please somebofy inform me on this! --Arash red 11:23, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I am kind of shocked and appaled by the inmplication that "thinking" and "writing" are not important parts of "life." Surely, Marx's life is notable largely because of the things he thought about and wrote. It seems only logical to me that this article on Marx devote a good deal of space to the most important parts of his life. More specifically, Arash red, what parts of his life are missing, that you think should be included? feel free to contribute as long as it is relevant and comes from verifiable soruces, Slrubenstein | Talk 12:32, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

dear slurbenstein! as a staunch Marxist myself of course i dont think Marx's thinking and writing are not part of his "life". but this is not the point. my point is very simple. if somebody wants to know about Marx's simple history of life there is nothing in this article that can be found useful. the article is almost entirely about "Marx's Thought" and "Marxism" while an article about a person should mainly include his line of life. my command of english is not the best and maybe i am not saying what i exactly mean. where Marx was born, where did he die, who were his friends, where did he study, his children, his burial place. this are the facts that should be here. we should remember than people usually use encyclopedias to check the facts like this. there is no Biography here, this is a big shame. just look at Friedrich Engels to see what a biography can be. (let alone a good one).

even ideas should be introduced in a historical story-telling style ALSO. (in addition to the current style which is good).

i still dont believe there is no explanation for an article like this here. this is really a big shame for Wikipedia level of articles. Imagine somebody search "Lenchen" (Marxes permanent servant who was also allegedly mother of Marx's son,fredrick, and who is buried with Marx and Jenny) and see that there is not a single point about her in Wikipedia. I hope somebody can explain me something about this.

of course i will write a biography for him,here but i cant believe that in big english Wikipedia I, a rare contributor in English Wiki, am the one who is doing it. this is seriously the biggest shock i have encountered in wikipedia! --Arash red 16:50, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an ongoing, collaborative process. No article is ever "finished" and we always hope for and count on people coming along for the first time with fresh ideas about how to improve an article and a willingness to help out practically! Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 15:03, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

yes,dear friend and thats why i will try to help altough my english is not really the best. i hope you and other friends can correct my mistakes with kindness. --Arash red 09:41, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Cultural depictions of Karl Marx

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 17:53, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

No biography?

The Marxism article on Wikipedia says that Marx's family lived in near poverty in London. So I thought this article would tell me about his family, but it doesn't. The word "married", "wife", and "family" don't appear. I think someone forgot to add a biography to this biography :-) Gronky 09:33, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Feel free to add it! Slrubenstein | Talk 09:37, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I can't, I know nothing about this topic. For the topics I can contribute to, I appreciate when non-specialists point out gaps. Gronky 11:22, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

dear Gronky, I raised the same question and you can see the correspondence up in this page. i promise to add Marx biography here in this week. i am quite familiar with the issue. --Arash red 06:26, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

According to Francis Wheen's biography, despite the legends, Marx's family did not live in poverty, nor is there good evidence that Marx was the father of his maid's child. I'll see if I can find references, and then add to the article. Freethinker666 15:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Someone wrote this on his childhood: "Karl Marx was born into a cannabalistic family in the early 19th. century, his father the Sultan of Persia gave him a magic carpet and told him to fly to the US an distroy capitalism. On the day of his Barmizta he lost control of his carpet and crashed into the heart of Moscow"

I'd rewrite it but I don't know much about his childhood, but I think he was born into a petty bourgeois jewish family

Vandalism I'm afraid, even if it would be interesting to know what Marx's thoughts on the 1001 Nights were. Philip Cross 14:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Spinoza?

Who claims Spinoza was a particular influence on Marx? Slrubenstein | Talk 12:15, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Marx had handcopied extracts from Spinoza's Tractatus Theologico-Politicus in his notebooks. His controversy with Bruno Bauer also included differences on the interpretation of Spinoza and Spinozism, see Critical Battle Against French Materialism. Maximilien Rubel argues that Spinoza has been an important influence on Marx philosophy, see his essay Le concept de démocratie chez Marx. --Schwalker 10:57, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Is this to be carried forward? I'm of the opinion that Spinoza should be appended to the list of influences. There is quite a strong argument for the inclusion of Spinoza as an influence of Marx from the Marxist electronic journal: Cultural Logic, see Spinoza and Marx. Is anyone opposed to making this change? Iomesus 19:23, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, the author Mr Holland writes: "Less clear is the significance of this fact, and the extent of Spinoza's influence on Marx's thought", and that the aim of his thought-experiment "is to deliberately exaggerate the extent of that influence". I'm not sure that an essential influence of Spinoza on Marx is accepted beyond the circle of Rubel. --Schwalker 20:38, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

General intellect

To anyone who knows more about Marx than me... General intellect looks like it needs to be merged with something. Perhaps here. ~ Booya ^Bazooka 04:45, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Historical Materialism

The article cites its developement by Marx in The German Ideology twice in the same section. The762x51 08:27, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

See also

I propose to remove, from the "see also" section, the links to his books, because they are already linked among his books. I propose to add links to some of his mottos: Workers of the world, unite! and From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. Laurusnobilis (talk • contribs) 15:35, 15 December 2006 (UTC).

Criticism section

The Criticism section is very poor. It has almost no sources and suffers from a 'critics say... but Marxists counter...' style which is inappropriate for an encyclopedia. WP is not a debate forum. Many of the criticisms are also not of Marx himself, but communism as it has been practiced. Ashmoo 06:32, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

¿communism, next "step" after capitalism?

I guess it should say socialism or dictatorship of the proletariat at the end of this line of the first paragraph of the article: "Marx believed that the downfall of capitalism was inevitable, and that it would be replaced by communism...". (it could also be said that both the dictatorship of the proletariat and socialism were considered fases between capitalism and communism)

Any comments? Ernalve 17:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Freemason?

I came across this page ( http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/33rd.htm )that claims that Marx was a Freemason. Does anyone have any other reliable information on this?

I have: It's rubbish Somearemoreequal 23:26, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

define: rue Veneua

is this a typo of rue Vaneua? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tim.thelion (talk • contribs) 04:52, 9 January 2007 (UTC).

Marx a pimp?

In the second paragraph, the writer claims that Marx was both an academic and a pimp. Although this looks like an act of vandalism to me by some inmature reader, I do not know very much about Marx and did not want to correct it in case the statement was true. Can anyone look into that? 75.176.185.69 19:03, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

True? It was vandalism which existed for 14 minutes. It's been fixed. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 19:07, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

2807 Karl Marx

As it turns out, Karl Marx is also the name of an asteroid. I feel this article should refer back to the asteroid article just like it refers back to the Marx disambiguation, but I don't know how to do that myself. Somebody feels like fixing stuff? Cheers, --129.247.247.238 11:17, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I added it to the disambiguation page. Matteo 11:24, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, that was quick! --129.247.247.238 18:53, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Did he have a deep respect in faith?

No —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.221.64.110 (talk) 02:33, 31 January 2007 (UTC).

Karl Marx Jew hating Lutheran?

Not listed in the Bibliography currently is "A world without Jews" Tr. and Intr. Dagobert D. Runes. New York: Philosophical Library [c. 1959][1] Also noticed the debate about Marx being an anti-semite above, but after a search did not find the word "anti-semite" in the article, or any detail on criticism of Marx for this. Aside from asking that "A world without Jews" be included, im wondering why the article makes no mention of the criticism and why Marx isn't in the CAT:Anti-semitic people.

The "On the Jewish Question" article states that it contains passages "that are alleged to be anti-semitic". While in this article "On the Jewish question" is described rather more tamely as including "several critical references to Judaism as well as Christianity from an atheistic standpoint." However look at some of the quotes from "On the Jewish quesion":

• "The Jew, who in Vienna, for example, is only tolerated, determines the fate of the whole Empire by his financial power." and
• "What is the worldly cult of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money."

In a review of "A world without Jews" in a 1960 edition of The Western Socialist here Marx is further quoted as writing:

• "As soon as society succeeds in abolishing the empirical essence of Judaism, the huckster, and the conditions which produce him, the Jew will become impossible, because his consciousness will no longer have a corresponding object, because the subjective basis of Judaism, viz.: practical needs, will have been humanized, because the conflict of the individual sensual existence with the generic existence of the individual will have been abolished." and
• "The disappearance of the Jews will not involve a tragic process like the disappearance of the American Indians or the Tasmanians." and
• "The social emancipation of the Jew is the emancipation of society from Judaism." (my emphasis)

The ADL seem to think that comments such as those made by Marx represent anti-semitism. ADL uses this definition of Anti-Semitism: "Anti-Semitism is prejudice and/or discrimination against people who are Jewish. Anti-Semitism can be based on hatred against Jews because of their religious beliefs and their group membership (ethnicity)".[2] (my emphasis)

Marxs appears to attack Jews and Judaism in General. His remarks on Jews and Judaism are unflattering, seek to portray jews as 1 dimensional stereotypes, and Judaism as a blight. He even goes so far as to wish the disappearance of Judaism and Jews (as adherants to a lifestyle of "huckstering"). This expressed contempt would meet the rather widely defined criteria #1 at CAT:Anti-Semitic people:

• "Made statements or published writings which demonstrate hatred towards Jews as a people"

If public discourse from the period made by rightwing figures had contained these statements, regardless of whether it was in the context of describing economic theory or not, its very likely that they would nowadays be recognized as "anti-semitic".

Nor is Marx alone in the "alleged" anti-semitism. In "The Holy Family": "On the other hand, it was proved that Jewry has maintained itself and developed through history... ..because it is to be found, not in religious theory, but only in commercial and industrial practice."[3]

Marx should be in the CAT. Reference to the criticism that he is anti-semitic (even if it is to be dismissed) should be made in the article including the use of the offending word. Not doing so is a double standard. NEVER NEVER NEVER 14:31, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Your selective quoting of Marx is simply irrelevant to our project, please consult our core policies WP:NOR, WP:NPOV and WP:V. The main biographers of Marx and scholars of marxism intterpret these essays differently than you do. The issue is not whether they are right or wrong, the issue is that they are verifiable sources and you are not. If you find an acceptable (vverifiable, reliable, relevant, significant, appropriate) source, we can quote/cite her. Otherwise, our opinions do not enter into articles. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:50, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Selective quoting is often required when highlighting bigotry. Mein Kampf, for example, is often quoted selectively to highlight the authors intolerance. I agree however that I was quoting "selectively"- I mentioned only a few of Marx's statements attacking Judaism & Jewry. There are a great deal more. Do these statements exceed the qualifications for being considered anti-Semitic under commonly understood and accepted definitions of the term? To my mind they do but im pretty sure im not the only one. Mention is made of "alleged" anti-Semitism in "On the Jewish Question". Since this criticism exists why wouldn't it be addressed in the authors biography? Assuming good faith I will research the necessary criticisms from the various sources.

Something you entirely failed to address is the "selective" listing of Marx's bibliography. Naturally I once again assume good faith. It could only be that a simple oversight has lead to Marx's 2nd most famous libel against Judaism & Jewry being excluded. However, now that you have the details, please feel free to include it in the authors bibliography. NEVER NEVER NEVER 17:40, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

As long as your contributions are fully compliant with our three core policies they will be welcome. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:43, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh my god, so much about so very little. On the jewish question is a minor work (with an almost nil influence on marxist thougth), only two articles about the same subject, and the main focus is on the religion-state question. Even, it is an early work (1844). We dont see a section on anti-semitism at Shakepeares biography (and he created the most stereotypical jewish money-lender: Shylock). Sometimes, i suspect that the true reason behind this stuff is a kind of an Ad-Hominen argument (and thus a non-formal Fallacy): if Marx was an antisemite, then all marxism thougth is bad or anti-semitic (not a very academic or logical argument). I think that the very topic is irrelevant. In fact, those who argue that "on the jewish question" is some kind of nazi manifest, devote NO-Time to analize or refute any of its arguments (what would be the logical attitude). This is not new, both right and left have readed his works and acted as if it were a religious text, son many arguments are founded on good or evil idealizations of him. And both sides are acting wrong. The Ad-Hominem (for the Right) and the appelations to Autorithy (for the second) are INVALID arguments, since both are fallacies. If Marx hated the jews or if he was racist, that doesnt mean that all he said is trash. The veracity, or lack of it, must be analyzed for each of Marx statements about any topic. Marxist theory deserves some criticism, since any theory needs it. So, if you want to send marxism to trashcan, you'll have to do a greater (and undoubtly more productive and rich) work.

Illapa (a.k.a. Orion) Illapa 03:35, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

'A World Without Jews' is a somewhat controversial work, largely due to the selective nature and bias of the translation and introduction. The purpose of the translation was to demonstrate Marx's anti-semitism. While this does not of course mean that it should not be on wiki, it should not be presented uncritically as evidence of Marx's anti-semitism. 163.1.99.26 08:48, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

London section

It's really confusing that the London section never mentions London. Does anyone happen to know when Marx began to live in London? 71.153.45.246 23:46, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Its on the line above the section. Perhaps one could split the sentence between the two sections: "This time he sought refuge in London." London section "In May 1849 Marx moved to London where he was to remain for the rest of his life. Andysoh 22:54, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Motherfucker redirects here?

Via sociology I wound up at Karl Marx, and I noticed that some humorous right wing or just anti left, or perhaps just a plain idiot had linked this page to the word 'motherfucker'. I'm ignorant myself, but could someone do something about this and the links to other leftist Russians being 'fuckers'? I'm no Bill Hicks, but that's not funny, this is an encyclopedia. 213.243.184.221 16:04, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Seconds Request

Yes, I second the request above me. I'm also new to wikipedia and its features and would appreciate it if someone could remove the offensive link. NeoSoldier 04:17, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Page length

Can someone archive part of this talk page as getting long. Jackiespeel 19:01, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Commodity ism = Commodity fetishism?

'Commodity ism' is mentioned a couple of times under the Philosophy section. Is this not supposed to be 'commodity fetishism'?

Sample quote: "Marx described this loss in terms of commodity ism, in which the things that people produce, commodities, appear to have a life and movement of their own to which humans and their behavior merely adapt." Zalmoxe 15:13, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Religion

The original version was: Whereas his Gymnasium senior thesis argued that the primary social function of religion was to promote solidarity, here Marx sees the social function as a way of expressing and coping with social inequality, thereby maintaining the status quo. My problems with this sentence are, that Marx in the Introduction to a Contribution To The Critique Of Hegel's Philosophy Of Right

• does not use the explicit concept of social inequality
• says that the proletariat should change the status quo in Germany. But for him, this is not a theological problem, but rather an issue of the philosphy of rights, state, and history. Thus, to say that religion has the social function of maintaining the status quo seems to be too much an abbreviation of his line of arguments.

The intention of the new (preliminary) version is to give a sketch of the whole preface. Schwalker 17:31, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with a recent change in that section from

(...) here Marx sees the social function as “an inverted consciousness of the world”. It is produced by state and society “because they are an inverted world”.

to

(...) here Marx sees the social function in terms of political and economic inequality. Moreover, he provides an analysis of the ideological functions of religion: to reveal “an inverted consciousness of the world”.

The original sentence in the preface is

"This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world."

So here Marx does not speak about a "social function" of religion, nor about a direct connection between religion and "terms of political and economic inequality". Nor does he speak about an "ideological functions of religion " which would "reveal" something. I believe that to say that he uses this concepts would already be a non self-evident interpretation of Marx. I've changed it to

(...) here Marx sees religion as “an inverted consciousness of the world”. It is produced by state and society “because they are an inverted world”.

--Schwalker 14:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC) He very much is concerned with inequality and you shouldn't delete this element. Note that I did not delete the points you added - I did some editing solely for style but kept your content. Please do not delete the earlier content, which is appropriate. That he does not use the word ideology or inequality does not mean that we cannot use these words to paraphrase. You seem to think an encyclopedia should be a string of quotations. It is not. If people want to read Marx, they should read Marx. This is an article about Marx. It can't just be quotations, and it will therefore use words Marx did not use. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

No, I don't “think an encyclopedia should be a string of quotations”. I do agree that “if people want to read Marx, they should read Marx”. How do you learn about a written text? I don't know another method than to read it, or let someone else read it for me. Thus if an encyclopedia is reporting the contents of a written text, it must either use quotes in direct or indirect speech. Or it can use interpretations from secondary source, but then it must tell the reader where the interpretations come from. I don't object at all using words Marx did not use, first of all because the original text is not in English. But I'm against introducing concepts which he did not use in the text. The concept of "ideology" was used by Marx in later text such as The German Ideology. We can't be sure that this later notion of "ideology" is a proper category for Marx's concepts of religion or philosophy in the Preface. The paradigm of Functionalism (sociology) was introduced much later than when the Preface was written. We can't be sure that Marx did anticipate this paradigm of "function" here. A complain about "inequality" usely implies a demand for an "equal" re-distribution of wealth. We can't be sure that Marx did promote such a re-distribution in the Preface. Besides, you did delete Marx statement that "Religion is produced by state and society “because they are an inverted world”".--Schwalker 19:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Influences on Marx

Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, Ludwig Feuerbach, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe,Max Stirner, Bruno Bauer, Charles Fourier, Joseph Pierre Phroudon, Baruch Spinoza, Giambattista Vico, Adam Smith, David Ricardo, Jean-Baptiste Say, Charles Darwin, Willian Shakesperare, Honoré Balzac, Dante Alighieri. But I never read any commentarie about Immanuel Kant or Jean-Jacque Raousseau. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.8.107.146 (talk) 01:56, 6 April 2007 (UTC).

Socialism and communism

Demigod Ron addded the the introduction the idea of socialism as a transitional phase between capitalism and communism. If I remember correctly, though, Marx doesn't actually use the terminology this way - although he does talk about an intermediate phase in the transition from capitalism to a classless society, he doesn't call one "socialism" and the other "communism." Like his contemporaries, he used the two words interchangeably. I've had a quick look at the obvious reference (the Manifesto, the Critique of the Gotha Program), and I can't see Marx using the terms "socialism" and "communism" to distinguish this transitional phase. Is my memory correct here? Should I change Demigod Ron's addition (maybe to read "...capitalism would be replaced a transitional economic system that would eventually lead to communism.")? VoluntarySlave 01:27, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

In The Civil War in France, part III, pages 88-89, Marx analyses several forms of socialism. He only really likes revolutionary socialism:

(...) the proletariat rallies more and more around revolutionary socialism, around communism, for which the bourgeoisie has itself invented the name of Blanqui. This socialism is the declaration of the permanence of the revolution, the class dictatorship of the proletariat as the necessary transit point to the abolition of class distinctions generally, to the abolition of all the relations of production on which they rest, to the abolition of all the social relations that correspond to these relations of production, to the revolutionizing of all the ideas that result from these social relations.

Of course this notions of socialism and communism first of all applies only to the situation in France at that time after 1848. In the section on Private Property and Communism in the third of the Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts of 1844, he has also distinguishes different notions or stages of communism as the transcendence of private property. I could find the term “capitalism” as a substantive used by Marx only after 1862 (Theories of Surplus Value). I don't think that we could attribute to Marx a belief that a classless society would be an “eventual end of history”. Perhaps the article should say:

Marx believed that the capitalist society would be replaced by a transitional dictatorship of the proletariat which in turn would lead to a classless society. --Schwalker 14:46, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

One has to take into account that the book Theories of Surplus Values had been edited by Karl Kautsky after Marx's death. At the moment, I don't know of a single text by Marx with the substantive capitalism (or Kapitalismus) published during his lifetime.

Actually I agree with the edit comment (too general a use of dict of prole for the entree). While Marx occasionally called a governmental system "dictatorship of the proletariat", it seems to be too far fetched (or would need a source) to say that he believed that it is necessary in any event.

--Schwalker 09:12, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Marx did believed that a transitional period was needed (read in The Communist Manifesto)and he called it Dictatorship of the proletariat This is discussed in Critique of the Gotha Program. The term does not mean real dictatorship merely a situation in which the working class is using the state to abolish capitalism. "Between capitalist and communist society there lies the period of the revolutionary transformation of the one into the other. Corresponding to this is also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat." - Karl Marx, Critique of the Gotha Program.

Marx also described the Paris Commune as the first dictatorship of the proletariat. It is Lenin who divided the process of accomplishing communism as "Socialism and then Communism",and this is the main term used today among marxists,but this is article about Marx here not Marxism and he didn't used the term Socialism let alone "radical socialism" to describe the transitional phase. madcat 22:08, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Wait,

I've got to acknowledge that these cited passages are convincing on the first look, but do they really support what the article claims now ("Marx believed that capitalism will be displaced by communism - a classless society after a transitional period called Dictatorship of the Proletariat") ?

In the quoted passage from the Critique of the Gotha Program, M. speaks of two different planes: First the society, (which, above in the same text, he had called the "basis" of the state), and secondly, corresponding to it (as a kind of superstructure) the political realm, which is the state.

So it's the "period of revolutionary transformation" of the society, which a previous version of this wikipedia article had been reworded as "radical socialism". M. writes that the state "can be nothing" but the d.o.t.p., that means nothing else which would go beyond the d.o.t.p.. For example, later in the same text, M. argues against the Gotha Program's demand for "Elementary education by the state". Also, M. does not write that the state must necessarily be the d.o.t.p.

--Schwalker 12:21, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not exactly sure what you are arguing about.Is it the term itself or the fact that Marx believed in a transitional period before communism? Because this is generally the main difference between anarchism and marxism.Marx believed that the state cannot be immediately abolished and it must be in the hands of the working class until the bourgeois resistance is crushed and etc...,only then the state will "wither away".And since Communism is Stateless and classless society real communism does not exist since then.This Period between the proletariat taking power over the state and the state withering away is basically called d.o.t.p.Now should it be called "Radical Socialism" or "d.o.t.p." ? If there wasn't an exact term for this period then maybe "Radical Socialism" would be fine,but since such a term exist I don't see a reason why it shouldn't be used.

madcat 21:22, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that M. believed in the necessity of a transitional period, during which the state would still exist. My first point was Marx seems to insist on a dialectical relationship of society and state. So for him, the notion of a revolutionary d.o.t.p. belongs to the state rather than to the society itself. Second point was to interpret the notion of a d.o.t.p. in the Critique of the Gotha program as a limitation rather than a prescription for the shape of a revolutionary state. The German text reads "...deren Staat nichts andres sein kann als...", which I think is better translated as "...in which the state can be nothing else but...". The version now proposed in the article is intending to stay close to the original text at this point. --Schwalker 22:02, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Uh, yeah I didn't notice when everyone started talking about this and didn't have a chance to defend myself. Marx indeed believed that there needed to be a transition between capitalism (classed society) to communism (classless society). And this transitional period would be the dictatorship of the proletariat which would be a classed society, but be ruled by the proletariat in place of the bourgeoisie. Long ago it was decided that the dictatorship of the proletariat and socialism are one and the same, and Marxists now believe that "the lower phase of communist society" refers to the period when the dictatorship loosens its reigns on society (in other words the workers stop oppressing and executing capitalists) and society becomes truly socialist.

By now all the dialectics reading this will see the connections. The dictatorship of the proletariat and the lower phase of communist society are so close to one another that they are almost the same period of time and in turn are both "socialism". The dictatorship could therefore be seen as "proto-socialism" when the working class has not yet gotten all it's affairs in order and taken full control of society, and the "lower phase of communist society" is true socialism with communes and council democracy... Now rather than writing this, I felt the simpler phrase was more efficient. (Demigod Ron 04:52, 1 November 2007 (UTC))

Influences and Influenced

I have started a discussion regarding the Infobox Philosopher template page concerning the "influences" and "influenced" fields. I am in favor of doing away with them. Please join the discussion there. RJC ^Talk 14:16, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

{{editprotected}}

Could an admin member please correct his name in the opening sentence. Karl Marx is not Santa S. Claus ;) (HighburyVanguard 00:28, 9 May 2007 (UTC))

This page is semiprotected; any username more than a few days old can edit it. There is no need for administrator assistance to edit this page. CMummert · talk 01:02, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Recently, the names of Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky, Mao, Fidel Castro, and Che Guevara have been removed for three times from the "influenced" list in the "Western Philosophy 19th-century philosophy" box, with the reasons a) "not philosophers", b) [if wiki-biographies call them philosophers] "then wiki-biographies are wrong..." ,c) “the box is "Western Philosophy" !”. To include the names in the list improves the informative value of the article, since they belong to important persons influenced by Marx's philosophy. If some of them are wrongly called philosophers in their individual wikipedia articles, then it would be a convenient contribution to edit these articles, instead of the box in the Karl Marx article. The box does not say whether the persons listed under "influences" and "influenced" are or are not philosophers themselves. The boxes headline is "Western Philosophy" because it gives biographical data about an important representative of this branch. Generally speaking, an encyclopedia would have a too narrow view on a certain person or a certain field, if it restricted the description of influences on and from to professional colleagues only.--Schwalker 10:37, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree. There is no requirement that people under "influenced" must be philosophers too. -- Vision Thing -- 17:57, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Prussia

was a Prussian philosopher

I haven´t found any article in the en:Wiki, which describes a ethnic german as Prussian, Bavarian or Würtembergian. I think it is better to write that he was a german from Trier then part of Prussia.

Have a look to the articles of Schopenhauer, Kant, or Engels.--84.175.132.77 22:06, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Inaccurate Characterization

The characterization of Marx as a philosopher, political economist, and revolutionary is not one that is universally shared. Marx did not create a philosophical view, nor did he contribute academically to political economics. He bent and shaped select existing views in support of his call for revolution; with his chief concern being to raise the level of authority of his own family's class. Because he got away with it, the liberty was taken by the (temporary) winners to write their own version of history, including a larger / better than real life portrayal of Marx. This article appears to be politically motivated spam.

Tombstone

Do we really have to typeset the epitaph in all caps? 128.114.60.100 20:50, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

No, don’t see a compelling reason. --Van helsing 21:39, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

from introduction?

he is most famous for his analysis of history, summed up in the opening line of the introduction to the Communist Manifesto (1848): "The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles."
It seems to be the first line of 'Chapter I: Bourgeois and Proletarians' instead (I've checked out on wikisource only). Hammaad (Talk) 17:24, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, marxists.org agrees that it is part of Chapter I. Actually, "The history of all hitherto existing society(2) is the history of class struggles" includes the limiting footnote (2) "That is, all written history...".--Schwalker 19:18, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Needs more sourcing

This article needs better sourcing. There is a lot of unverified info here that needs sources. --Lendorien 18:26, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Politics, Philosophy, Economics

I just added a couple of main page links for the sections on Marx's philosophy and political economic contributions. I want to suggest another for his politics, which could begin with the Communist Manifesto, and might fit neatly above the other two categories. Thoughts? Wikidea 18:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Should Marx be considered a German?

It is well known that Marx became stateless, but despite that fact, the general introduction portrays him as a "German philosopher..." I am tempted to change that to "German-born philosopher...", but I rather ask the community first. Thank you! LFS 03:22, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I have no objection to a change. The problem is, "German" is accurate in a cultural sense in that he grew up in a German-speaking place and was reared in German culture - in these senses he was a "German" philosopher. But when he was born, there was no "Germany." He was born in Prussia. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:01, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

That is a very intresting fact. But because there already is a discussion about this German or Prussian controversy, I will change the introduction to "German-born philosopher..." until the community decides if it should rather be "Prussian-born..." By the way, somebody changed it already to "German-Jewish...", which I think is not accurate, given his well known opinion against religion. LFS 13:32, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

But you don't have to be religious to be Jewish ethnically; I'm ethnically Jewish, although I am a fervent Christian. Nyttend 13:33, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Marx did not consider himself Jewish, nor was he considered Jewish by others, although he did acknowledge his Jewish ancestry and his sympathy for the Jewish community. Still doesn't make him Jewish. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:35, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Who is a Jew? (and the Jews may be even fervent anti-Semites in denial - this does not make them less Jewish, it makes them idiots) --HanzoHattori 20:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I notice that all reference to Marx being a German-born, a Prussian-born or a Jew in the general introduction has been erased. Perhaps this is a good (neutral) solution, and we could allow the Biography to state his Jewish ascendance, the "card" at the right to declare his birthplace, and let the context explain his relation to Germany as well as his stateless condition. What do you think? LFS 01:46, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

"he was not Jewish"

Wow. How do you classify someone "not Jewish", when born in the Jewish family? Jews are a nation, not a religion. Do you have problems with the guy being Jew? --HanzoHattori 14:15, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, because we have, Who is a Jew?, maybe we'd also make Who is not a Jew?, for Marx being "born into the Jewish people" but "not Jewish", etc. --HanzoHattori 14:21, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Reread what I wrote. You didn't understand any of it. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:27, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I notice that all reference to Marx being a German-born, a Prussian-born or a Jew in the general introduction has been erased. Perhaps this is a good (neutral) solution, and we could allow the Biography to state his Jewish ascendance, the "card" at the right to declare his birthplace, and let the context explain his relation to Germany as well as his stateless condition. What do you think? LFS 01:44, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Marxism Tag

Is there any way we can move the Marxism box to underneith the main infobox? It would look alot better...

Also I archived this talk page, just an FYI
Ferdia O'Brien The Archiver, Reformatter And Vandal Watchman (Talk) 23:59, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Can I retrieve the messages deleted on 31 July 2007 somewhere in the archives? --Schwalker 12:23, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the messages are in Archive 4. I found this out accidentaly after adding "Archive 4" to the Archives box. --Schwalker 20:28, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Marx and Britain

Copied from WP:RD/H for incorporation into the text of the article. --Ghirla^-трёп- 21:52, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, Marx in London: boils on his backside, harvested from hours spent in the reading room of the British Libary, an afflication for which he swore that the capitalists would pay!

Marx and family arrived in England in August 1849, settling in Dean Street, in the Soho district of London. He arrived with high expectations that the 'British Revolution', long in gestation, was shortly to be born. After all, this was the most industrialised country in Europe with the biggest proletariat. He placed particular faith in the Chartists, a mass movement which aimed at the democratic reform of the whole British political process. Before arriving he had written "The most civilized land, the land whose industry is the most developed, whose bourgeoisie is the most powerful, where the bourgeoisie and the proletariat are divided in the sharpest fashion and stand most decisively opposed to one another, will be the first to witness the emancipation of the workers of all lands. That land is England.".

Chartism, however, was not to be the vehicle of emancipation. Already in decline when Marx arrived, he held on to his unrealistic hopes as long as he could, but eventually agreed with Engels, who had a far better understanding of English politics, that the proletarian movement "...in its old traditional Chartist form must perish completely before it can develop in a new vital form."

This, in fact, is a key moment in Marx's personal and intellectual evolution; of the transformation of the young optimist into the ponderous critic of capitalism. A new crisis would come, that was always his belief, but if the revolutionry phoenix was to arise it would only do so through a proper understanding of the "law of motion of capitalist society." Das Kapital, volume one of which appeared in 1867, is not an analysis of capitalism in general: it is an analysis of English capitalism, or at least it is from this that he draws most of his practical examples. However, just as the English economy encouraged Marx in his model of historical development, his observations of English politics made him increasingly pessimistic. And here we have the key to the very thing that was to perplex not just Marx but generations of Marxists thereafter: namely, what was the precise relationship between objective economic forces and subjective revolutionary action? English capitalism may have been 'classic'; but English politics and the English working class was 'unclassic' in every degree!

The greatest puzzle for Marx was that England's political clothes simply did not fit its economic body, at least in the terms his theory prescribed. For Marx parliamentary republicanism was the political form best suited to advanced capitalism; but England retained not just a monarchy but a powerful aristocracy, which should have passed away with feudalism. It was the capacity of the English to absorb change without revolution that perplexed him most. England had a capacity for reform which;

...neither creates anything new, nor abolishes anything old, but merely aims at confirming the old system by giving it a more reasonable form and teaching it, so to say, new manners. This is the mystery of the 'hereditary wisdom' of the English oligarchical legislation. It simply consists in making abuses hereditary, by refreshing them, as it were, from time to time, by the infusion of new blood.

It was the English working class, which preferred to work within the existing system, that was to cause him his greatest annoyance, particularly in its support for the bourgeois Liberal party, parliamentary reform, moderate trade unions and the co-operative movement. The English had all the material necessary for a revolution but what they lacked was "the spirit of generalisation and revolutionary fervour." He became ever more pessimistic, towards the end of his life, seeing the English working class as no more than the 'tail' of the Liberal Party. Worse still, he came to agree with Engels that the English proletariat "was becoming more and more bourgeois, so that the most bourgeois of all nations is apparently aiming ultimately at the possession of a bourgeois aristocracy and a bourgeois proletariat as well as a bourgeoisie."

Alas the 'Red Doctor', as he came to be referred to in the British press after the Paris Commune, never understood the country he lived in for over thirty years of his life. His last recorded words were "To the devil with the British." Ah, well; Marx is dead, but capitalism lives! Clio the Muse 00:14, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

A quote

I read a quote, is what it's saying true? "Most people who read 'The Communist Manifesto' probably have no idea that it was written by a couple of young men who had never worked a day in their lives, and who nevertheless spoke boldly in the name of 'the workers.'" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 168.103.90.223 (talk • contribs) 16:14, 8 August 2007.

It's untrue. Marx worked as an editor and journalist but was thrown out of work by censorship in Germany. In Britain, he struggled as best he could to make money while working on Capital, by for example writing for the New York Herald Tribune. He was a talented communicator...excluded from most newspapers by hatred of Communists.

Engels worked for his family firm.

Furthermore, their unpaid work including Engel's reports on Manchester and Marx's Capital and *Grundrisse* represent thousands of man-hours of labour, even if it wasn't labour to be expropriated by some capitalist or other.

What they WEREN'T, was the work-monkeys we see today, who thirst for alienation and destroy their lives with nothing to show for it. They were humanists who refused to countenance the sacrifice of lives they saw about them to the money power who in a prophetic tradition said that the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath: they saw that human life is about the survival and flourishing of people in a world without slaves or concentration camps and naught else.

Unfortunately, it's become hip and fashionable to criticise Marxists for not "working", that is giving their irrecoverable time on earth to some employer who pockets a healthy fraction of its market value.

The people who replicate horseshit such as the above quote are paid shills for privately funded think tanks who since 1980 have been paid to destroy any hope in a world which is going to hell by way of global warming alone, a global warming created by the manic phase of the capitalist cycle, in which we must all "work", filling the world with toxins, which may be about to be followed, thanks to the credit collapse, by a depressive phase, in which we may not work at all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 218.102.35.106 (Talk) (talk • contribs) 11:46, 10 August 2007.

Have you heard of the theory of class consciousness? How can most self-proclaimed communists sympathize with the struggles of the working class if they've never experienced it?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.40.32.57 (talk • contribs) 16:12, 14 August 2007.

Please

a) sing your contributions with four tildes ~

b) keep in mind Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#How_to_use_article_talk_pages: Keep on topic: Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject.

thanks, --Schwalker 19:26, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Notes 5 & 6: unclear referencing

Both these notes do not quote the text to which they refer, but only say " #2 ". What does that refers to? Isaiah Berlin, who is number 2 on the References list? If this is the case, it should directly state so. Wikipedia moves to fast to use this kind of system: WP:Footnotes should all include the name of the author, and if a book is repeatly quoted, then the name & date is sufficient (here, ibid comes in handy). Else, it isn't at all helpful. Hopes somebody finds the original ref... (And maybe add it to July Monarchy in the last section). Tazmaniacs 15:13, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

It seems these references have been added on December 16 2006 and refer to the book "Paris Between Empires" (2001) by Philip Mansel.--Schwalker 12:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

"Neo Marxism" Section

Hey, there was a section called "Neo-Marxism". I removed it. I don't have anything against Marxist ideology, but this is very one-sided, totally unsourced, and a bit too optimistic. I really think it needs some reworking before it stays for good. So, until someone modifies it, it shall stay here:

Neo-Marxism since 2000

"New" Marxist paradigms have begun to appear especially in Latin America as a pragmatic and not theoretical response to the powerful revival that may have started in 1944 with Hayek of "neoclassical economics", because the latter's stress on the rights of the end consumer has been seen by many to disempower the primary producer, getting pennies on the dollar for the "real" value of his production, whether this is Starbuck's coffee or folk remedies transformed into drugs by pharmaceutical companies.

While these new paradigms acknowledge the failure of so called "planned economies", they continue to insist on justice as a valid economic measure, expressible by adding indices of inequality to indices of gross democratic product to interrogate class-divided economies.

Their critique of developed economies has shifted in recent years from a critique of their spiritual emptiness and a disempowering emphasis on competition to point out growing economic insecurity in developed countries without planning mechanisms, such as the absence of health care for many in America.

Cliche Screenname 22:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Bibilography and online texts section

Since this is locked for editing could somebody remove "The Reality Behind Commodity Fetishism" from the bibiolgraphy and online texts section, since the article is not by Marx, and there doesn't seem to be any particular reason for its inclusion. --89.241.64.242 17:16, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

here it is:

• "The Reality Behind Commodity Fetishism" (in English) at Sic et Non (in German)

I agree it is not appropriate for this article. Actually, I am not impressed by it at all, but it is a verifiable source - I suggest if someone cares about it they add it to the appropriate article, which would either be Commodity fetishism or Marxism. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:22, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Carl Schorlemmer

I've removed the following comment on the life of Carl Schorlemmer, who is mentioned as one who attended Marx's funeral, to here:

• "and a fighter at Baden in the last uprising of the 1848 Revolutions."

It may be true, but there are two problems with this as an unreferenced statement.

• 1. He would be 14 years at the time. This by no means disqualifies him.
• 2. Engels makes no mention of it in his obituary [4] This is rather more problematic. Although it is possible this rather modest man could have kept it from Engels, who also participated, it is unlikely, and even less likely that Engels would not have mentioned it in an obituary had he known of it.

Do we have a reference for this particular fact in this well researched section? Andysoh 00:13, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Was Marx a Marxist?

Interestingly this article categorises Marx as a Marxist! Apart from the obvious silliness (are Popes Papist? Was Tolkien Tolkienesque?), many historians of Marx have concluded there were significant differences between his views and what later came to be formally regarded as Marxism in the main Communist powers. I propose we remove this categorisation. LiberalViews 12:22, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I guess you propose to remove the Category:Marxists, which by definiton "contains people who have publicly identified themselves as Marxist." --Schwalker 13:37, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Of course not! Marx never publicly identified himself as any such thing, nor did he propose there be such a thing - the term was created by successors of Marx. LiberalViews 13:42, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Marx is said to have written "All I know is I am not a Marxist" (the attribution is uncertain), but it can't be unfair to put him in the category since the ideology 'Marxism' was defined by reference to his beliefs. Fys. “Ta fys aym”. 13:52, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of the historical context, it's absurdly self-referential and circular to put him in the category. Einstein would not be placed in the category "Followers of Einstein" and as the category "Marxists" essentially means "followers of Marx", clearly there is a problem. On another point, are you following me around today for some reason Fys? :-) LiberalViews 13:58, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Is it 'self-referential' to include Trotsky in Category:Trotskyists? There is a difference between adherents to a political ideology and "followers"; follower implicitly means coming after, whereas political ideologies generally have contemporary adherents as well. In fact it's standard practice to include a head article in a category. Oh, and if you look out of your window, I'm hiding behind a lamp-post just down your street. Fys. “Ta fys aym”. 14:07, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

If that's standard practise then it clearly needs changing! Stop peeking over my hedge by the way. LiberalViews 14:31, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Statue of Marx and Engels in ?

It is not on Alexanderplatz but in Berlin-Mitte. It is between Spandauer Straße and river Spree, close to town hall of Berlin (so called „Roten Rathaus“ = red town hall).

Pls correct. Thx. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.96.246.43 (talk) 16:14, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Hidradenitis suppurativa?

Is it worth adding something about Marx suffering from severe debilitating skin disease, possibly Hidradenitis suppurativa, and its possible effects on his character? See, for example, [5], [6], both of which refer back to a single source published in a medical journal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.168.225.107 (talk) 10:32, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Redirect

""Marx" redirects here. For other uses, see Marx (disambiguation)." It doesn't.