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September 2

Japanese change of address postcard

Can someone please tell me what information/fixed expressions are used on a Japanese change of address postcard? (Kanji ok). I had an example that I used to use, but I've lost it. Thanks. Exploding Boy (talk) 00:26, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See Japanese addressing system. Oda Mari (talk) 05:05, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, but that's not really what I meant. I'm looking for the standard format for change of address postcards. Exploding Boy (talk) 05:11, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You mean something like this? Oda Mari (talk) 05:20, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And this one. Oda Mari (talk) 05:25, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not exactly. I know how to write the address on a postcard or an envelope. The situation is that I'm moving to a new apartment, and I want to send notices with my new home address, so that people know where to reach me. I have a book with a standard format postcard (it says, in Japanese, something like "I've moved. My new address is xxxxxx"). I've already packed the book, and I can't find any examples online, so I'm just wondering what the standard format is for that type of notice. It's probably a lot more simple than I remember (something like 引っ越しました followed by the new address), but I thought there was more to it. Am I wrong? Exploding Boy (talk) 05:29, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry. Stupid of me. See these examples. Oda Mari (talk) 05:38, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Perfect. Thank you. Exploding Boy (talk) 05:45, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Secret Code

I remember reading a FoxTrot strip where Peter and Denise are on to Jason and Marcus wiretapping them, so they start speaking in a secret code where one would say "The local train stops on the hour" and the other would say "the heavy flag flaps not at night". Does anyone know the name of this secret code? Thanks in advance.

Americanfreedom (talk) 04:09, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've heard the term "open code" for a code where ordinary words and phrases are substituted for others, but I can't find a source to confirm that (googling for the phrase produces too many false hits to be helpful). The Code (cryptography) article uses the term "idiot code" for a related concept. --Anonymous, 08:40 UTC, September 2, 2008.

Velvalee_Dickinson... AnonMoos (talk) 12:55, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In other words, Steganography. Corvus cornix_talk 18:32, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No. Steganography is about concealing the presence of a coded message. "The heavy flag flaps not at night" is not an example of that. --Anon, 05:51 UTC, September 3, 2008.

It would probably be considered a form of substitution cipher, where you're not substituting individual letters, but words or phrases, using a predefined dictionary. The Navajo code talkers in World War II did something similar, where certain concepts were substituted with a word in Navajo (e.g "hand grenade" becomes the Navajo word for "potato"). In the case of FoxTrot, I doubt there was a particular code being used. Bill Amend probably just used phrases that sounded mysterious, using the style of passphrase challenge-response that is common in spy novels/films. (To be sure that the person you're talking to is your contact, as opposed to an enemy spy, you first trade a set a pre-arranged phrases which no one who isn't your contact would know or could guess from context.) -- 128.104.112.147 (talk) 00:52, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's not a cipher either. "Cipher" specifically refers to an encryption where the units are characters or bits rather than words or phrases. See Cipher#Ciphers versus codes. --Anonymous, 03:46 UTC, September 4, 2008.

Per aspera ad confusion

I've found Per Aspera Ad Astra, Per aspera ad Astra, and Per aspera ad astra (a redirect). Is the last one properly capitalized, or does Latin not capitalize? Clarityfiend (talk) 05:51, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Latin doesn't have clearcut rules for capitalization. While it was an everyday spoken language, lowercase letters hadn't been invented yet. Modern Latin tends to follow the capitalization rules of the native language of whoever's writing it. I'd say both the disambig pages should be merged to Per aspera ad astra (or Ad astra per aspera, the version of the proverb I know best). —An gr 06:02, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, the alphabet of classical Latin had letters in only one case, which was neither upper case nor lower case, and that alphabet has survived as our (Roman) capital letters. But Latin went on developing long after there were lower case letters, and when we write it now, as we nearly always do, in upper case and lower case, English speakers generally follow the practice of using capital letters where we would in English; the French use capital letters in Latin titles very sparingly, just as they do in French titles, but German speakers don't capitalize all Latin nouns, as their own language does. So I agree with Per aspera ad astra or Ad astra per aspera. Strawless (talk) 13:11, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There were other kinds of Latin script that had differently shaped letters - we usually think of Roman square capitals, but they also wrote with rustic capitals and Roman cursive. But yeah, they didn't really have a system of uppercase and lowercase, or even punctuation, like we do. Adam Bishop (talk) 19:40, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not really on topic, but only one of those is a disambig page, so a simple merge may not be appropriate. jnestorius^(talk) 21:21, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm on it. I should have it cleared up in a day or two (after a page deletion). Clarityfiend (talk) 09:13, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Latin pronunciation

Can someone summarise Latin pronunciation, preferably using examples from English? In addition to the pronunciation of individual letters, diphthongs, etc how do you determine which syllables are stressed? Thanks in advance--212.120.246.239 (talk) 19:42, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Latin spelling and pronunciation will surely be of interest. -- Coneslayer (talk) 19:44, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Memento nullos circa esse Romanos qui tuam corrigere possint locutionem. — OtherDave (talk) 19:57, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Which is correct

Which is correct: None of the group have.... OR None of the group has...?--79.76.154.239 (talk) 22:44, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That depends. In American English, it is common to refer to groups in the singular. In British English, as far as I know, it is common to refer to groups in the plural. Can someone who actually speaks British English either confirm or deny that last statement? J.delanoy ^gabs _adds 22:47, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's something about "none of the group" that just sounds bad to me. Personally I'd prefer "no one in the group has," which is always singular, by the way.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 23:02, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That might be because 'none of the group' treats 'group' as plural, which is (I believe) unnatural to a native American speaker. To J.delanoy: see American and British English differences#Formal and notional agreement. Groups can be referred to in the singular or plural depending on whether the group is acting as a corporate body or as a collection of individuals. In this usage, the group is being treated as a collection of individuals, none of whom have done something, so 'none of the group have' is correct in British English. Algebraist 23:13, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The original question is nothing to do with the plurality or not of 'group', because the subject is 'none', not 'group'. Among those who believe in 'correct', there are some who insist that 'none' should always take a singular verb (the rationalisation I was told was that it stands for 'no one'). In ordinary speech I think it is more often construed with the plural, but not exclusively. --ColinFine (talk) 23:37, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

just ask yourselves: what is 'none' a contraction of? Could it be 'no one'? Or 'not one'?

"None" can be plural or singular, and is derived from the Old English nān (itself from ne = not and ān = one).^[1]

^ Chambers 20th Century Dictionary, New Edition 1983, p. 861

DuncanHill (talk) 23:47, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the grammar guides I've seen agree that with "None of…" phrases the verb should be plural if the object of of is plural, singular if the object of of is singular ("None of them are going"/"None of the water was potable")—a form of notional agreement. In this case, as the original responders have said, it boils down to whether one construes group as singular or plural. Deor (talk) 23:58, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A better rule is that if you would expect there to be more than one, but there are none, then you should treat "none" as plural ("What do you mean, you have 10,000 employees and none of them are right-handed?"); otherwise treat it as singular. But it's correct either way. --Anonymous, 05:55 UTC, September 3, 2008.

These questions keep coming back, I think we need an article that explains if zero is sigular or plural once and for all, another that explains if group words ("team", "set", etc.) should be singular or plural, depending on where you are, which situation, or the actual meaning of the phrase (like "a total of..."). Otherwise we will keep rewriting the answer and arguing for pages and pages about it, everytime the question comes up. Not being a native speaker of English, I am not volunteering to write these articles. --Lgriot (talk) 03:43, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the great secret that schoolteachers are keeping from you: the English language lives in the heads of its native speakers. It is ridiculous to argue from syllogisms, and it is ridiculous to decide on the grounds that the word was two words before they were joined nine hundred years ago: it has certainly not been a contraction since then. You should therefore say both sentences to yourself and decide which one sounds correct, and then use that. If you really want someone else to lay down the law, then as a native speaker I claim my right to tell you that "none" takes the plural. Marnanel (talk) 20:25, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(That said, if you're asking whether "group" should be plural or singular, it's a dialectal matter, and WP:ENGVAR proscribes "fixing" dialectal differences.) Marnanel (talk) 20:27, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(Only within Wikipedia, though.) -- JackofOz (talk) 21:54, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

September 3

"Case" in ancient languages

In Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Language#Per_aspera_ad_confusion above, and in Greek_alphabet there is the mention of the notion of letter "case". Upper and lower case refers to the location of the pieces of type in a typesetter's type case, that is, his compartmented tray. The capitals were on top and the, uhh, squiglier ones were below. As type didn't move until much later the terms seem anachronistic. Majuscule and minuscule seem a trifle pedantic. Is there a common-usage compliment to "capital" (which, of course, only has meaning post-minuscule) other than "lower case"? Saintrain (talk) 01:28, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The common-usage alternative to "lower case" is "small". However, in relation to Greek in particular, I have seen the two styles of letters called "print" (upper case) and "script" (lower case). --Anonymous, 05:59 UTC, September 3, 2008.

Real typographers dislike "small" used as a synonym for lower-case, since they generally use "small" to refer to small caps (which are not lower-case). There are a whole series of technical terms to describe various medieval handwriting styles (i.e. "uncials", "half-uncials", "Carolingian", "Insular", "miniscules" etc.), some of which were on the line of development of the modern lower-case letters... AnonMoos (talk) 11:33, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly this will be a stupid question, but did classical languages have what we would recognise as a case distinction at all? Uppercase letters were the ones they used in stonemasonry, and lowercase were the cursive ones. Did anyone, before the Middle Ages anyway, ever use both kinds in the same document? Marnanel (talk) 20:06, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not in Latin or Greek, at least. They didn't have minuscule forms until the 9th or 10th century. Do any other classical languages even have case distinctions today? Adam Bishop (talk) 20:12, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The modern lowercase letters grew out of medieval "hands" (as I said), so ancient Romans didn't have anything closely resembling lowercase letters in form or function. They did have cursive and shorthand. AnonMoos (talk) 23:02, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nynorsk grammar

anyone knows where to find a NORWEGIAN NYNORSK GRAMMARBOOK? i repeat, a NYNORSK(=NewNorwegian) grammarbook where i get lists that are bending the words..

like this:

A song - the song - songs - songs

i relaize I might be asking on the wrong place, but it seems impossible to find anywhere... I need a list of all words being bendt and shaped into different forms. in order to learn the lanuage i must have one... and a common wordbook is not what i am looking for..

Have a look here, especially here and on all the subpages that start with substantiv. In general, nynorsk is very regular - the main thing you have to know is whether a noun is ~~male~~ masculine, ~~female~~ feminine or neutrum (which will be mentioned in any good dictionary, along with a possible irregular plural form) -- Ferkelparade π 11:42, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nouns may be masculine or feminine (or neuter), but they are never male or female. —An gr 11:49, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, of course. I hang my head in shame at my involuntary sexualisation of language -- Ferkelparade π 14:00, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And people inside Berlin need to remember that not everything that's characteristic of German English is an ignorant solecism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk • contribs) 16:18, 3 September 2008

A full dictionary of Nynorsk (and Bokmål) is here: http://www.dokpro.uio.no/ordboksoek.html . After each word there's a code (like n1 for noun, neuter, type 1) and you click on "oversyn over grammatiske koder" to get the pattern for that word. Jørgen (talk) 20:05, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ashkenazic pronunciation in Israeli Hebrew?

When Sholem Aleichem is discussed in Israeli Hebrew, is the Ashkenazic pronunciation [ˈʃolem aˈleixem] used, or is it "Sephardified" to [ʃaˈlom aleiˈxem]? Are there any other Yiddish words of Hebrew origin that have been borrowed into Israeli Hebrew from Yiddish that retain their Ashkenazic pronunciation? —An gr 11:08, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In contemporary Hebrew spoken by the mainstream Israeli population, the author's first name is pronounced SHAlom rather than the Yiddish SHOlem, the accent on the first syllable being typical of Hebrew words (nouns, adjectives) used as personal names; the surname is virtually the same in both pronunciations. For your second question: it's actually Yiddish words used in Hebrew with their Yiddish pronunciation (of vowels, certain consonants, and syllabic stress), which is essentially equivalent to the "Ashkenazic" pronunciation of Hebrew (e.g. SHAbos rather than the "Sephardic"=mainstream shaBAT, TOYre vs. toRAH, BRIS vs. BREET, mishPUche vs. mishpaCHA, EMes vs. eMET, etc.). The insertion of Yiddish words and phrases in Hebrew (regardless of the Yiddish being of Hebrew origin or otherwise), as with their usage in English, is considered jocular. -- Deborahjay (talk) 02:01, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Colon_Township,_Michigan

Whoever thought that one up? —Preceding unsigned comment added by FrontdoorFreddie (talk • contribs) 13:46, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps it's after Cristóbal Colón? -- Coneslayer (talk) 13:57, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

According to this source, it was named because the adjacent river and lake form the shape of a colon (punctuation). Marco polo (talk) 16:55, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

He said "exactly". Judge for yourselves. Looks more like a reflected map of New Zealand to me. Marnanel (talk) 20:03, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Was it like that because of irrigation?--ChokinBako (talk) 19:05, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ChokinBako - go to your room. Wanderer57 (talk) 03:28, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I notice that one of the local lakes is Sturgeon. Or to give it its full title: Colonic Sturgeon lake —Preceding unsigned comment added by TrapdoorTrevor (talk • contribs) 21:41, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's otherwise known as the a***hole of the world. :) -- JackofOz (talk) 21:50, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Other word

Hi, what's other word for harmful? It starts with the letter N? I'm not from English-speaking country and don't have a dictionary now, so I really need your help. thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Atacamadesert12 (talk • contribs) 16:34, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Noxious? Fribbler (talk) 16:36, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Noisome? DuncanHill (talk) 16:37, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nixon? — OtherDave (talk) 17:26, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Noxious or maybe Narcotic —Preceding unsigned comment added by FrontdoorFreddie (talk • contribs) 17:54, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nasty. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.11.251 (talk) 21:18, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

D sounding like j and t sounding like tch

What do you call the process in which the d in graduate, becomes j when spoken. For example, it would be pronounced like- gra-jew-ate. It may be the same process, but what do you call it when the first t in flatulate, becomes a tch, like this- fla-tchoo-late. This can also be seen in congratulate and constituate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.86.0.130 (talk) 18:54, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Palatalization --ChokinBako (talk) 18:58, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Constituate? Does any such word exist? -- JackofOz (talk) 21:48, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think so. Algebraist 22:12, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep in mind that there are a number of processes (both historical and phonological) referred to as "palatalization." In this instance, the alveolar stop (/t/ or /d/) assimilates properties from a following "y" (palatal approximant) sound; I've heard this attributed to the fact that a single articulation tool (the tongue) is compromising between the two target points of articulation. The "ch" and "j" sounds are postalveolar, which is indeed an area between alveolar and palatal. I suspect, however, that for many speakers that this is no longer a phonetic or phonological feature and instead the "y" sound has been altogether deleted in the process so that in speakers' underlying representations, flatulate is /ˈflæ.tʃu.leːt/ rather than /ˈflæ.tju.leːt/. — Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 06:19, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the word we are looking for is affricate? Duomillia (talk) 19:27, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Affricate is the name of sounds like "ch" and "j", it's not the name for the process of changing "d" to "j". —An gr 20:16, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You could turn affricate into a verb, but that doesn't fully describe the process. turning /t/ to [ts] and /d/ to [dz] would be accurately described as affrication. — Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 20:23, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It always gets me how it's often assumed that everything that can be described must have a name. I looked up 'affrication' and most sites listed something identical or nearly identical to 'The conversion of a simple stop consonant into an affricate,' which doesn't mention anything about POA, so while Æµ§œš¹'s thought on the subject is understandable, this phenomenon would also fit the definition. I suppose if you wanted to differentiate the two phenomena, you could maybe call this 'retractified affrication' or 'affricated centralization' or whatever. I hope you get my point. In my old phonology class we would simply make a rule that defines the behavior and the environment it occurs in. In this case, just going on our limited examples (excuse my text editor shorthand):

Alveolar Stop [α voiced] -> Postalveolar Affricate [α voiced] / æ(n)_u

Actually, that vowel environment doesn't work because '-ation' brings an /eɪ/ and '-entiate' brings an /ɛ/ and an /i/. Actually, this could turn into quite a project and we might find out that in some or all cases the affricate is actually the underlying phoneme and the orthography just doesn't represent it. I don't have a compelling reason to go through this exercise myself and find out which is the case, but unless you can persuade me somehow then I hope I gave you enough to go on. - Lamba jan 20:43, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Americans

Why do they talk through their noses? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.11.251 (talk) 21:04, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Previous offensive reply deleted -- SGB

The question is probably an attempt to be offensive to Americans. However if the question is treated seriously then the answer is that they mostly don't, they use their lungs to push air through their vocal cords and the sound mostly passes through their mouth where it is shaped and processed to form words and other sounds. Some of the sound will pass through the nose. A blocked nose obviously causes a differnt type of sound to be made. As for "Why", generally folk learn to speak by mimicing those around them, so if those around speak with a particular dialect or patois then the individual will tend to do the same. -- SGBailey (talk) 22:08, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Because we haven't mastered the art of sounding like we have a hot potato in our mouth? -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:28, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is from the book "Deutsch heute: Grundstufe" (1974), page xxxii.

"To make these long German vowels sound right, pronounce them with a lot more energy than the corresponding English vowel sounds. Our English vowels sound lackadaisical and funny to Germans. They say we talk as if we had a hot potato in our mouths--because we pronounce our vowels with so little energy."

-- Wavelength (talk) 18:33, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A Frenchman I know says Brits talk like they have a hot potato in the mouth and Americans sound like the adults in the Charlie Brown animated cartoons. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:05, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Whether the question was intended to be offensive or not, it is true that some American accents (e.g. Western New York State) nasalize some vowels (especially /æ/) spontaneously (i.e. even when they're not next to nasal consonants). I remember hearing a local TV news reporter from Binghamton, New York, pronounce his own surname, Catlin, in such a way that I thought he was saying "Cantlin". And I've heard someone else pronounce the name "Patsy" so it sounds like "Pantsy". But it would be a tremendous overgeneralization to say all Americans do that. —An gr 06:28, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See Nasalization, Nasal consonant, and Nasal vowel. This is common in many, even most languages. Some perhaps more than others, though I don't think English or even American English is all that extreme compared to all other languages. Probably somewhere in the middle. Pfly (talk) 10:03, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Detailed information about nasalization in different languages is available at WALS - Feature/Chapter 10: Vowel Nasalization.

-- 18:41, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

(I made the last comment, but my username did not appear. [1] -- Wavelength (talk) 18:30, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to take this question at face value, and comment on it in a serious vein. I am an American, and while in my youth I lived in Finland for a while. I hardly ever heard English spoken, and very rarely American English. However, I could be walking down a busy crowded street in, say, Helsinki, and if someone were speaking American English a block away, I would be able to easily hear it above the babel and noise of the crowd. The reason for this is precisely what the op was talking about - Americans tend to "talk through their nose", so that their speech is "twangy" sounding. This sort of sound, because it is unique and high-pitched, can easily carry through a crowd of people speaking in other languages. I'll leave it to others to go into the finer details about why Americans speak this way (I have a personal theory that we get it from the Scots Irish), but I do have to say that this is indeed a noticeable phenomenon. Saukkomies 08:47, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Results" speak

I have observed that if someone enters 5 events, wins 3 and loses 2 that an American (USA) will say "3 and 2" whilst an Englishman will say "3 out of 5". Is my observation accurate? How did it arise? What do other countries do (even non English speaking ones)? Is there a wikipedia article about any of this? -- SGBailey (talk) 22:02, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My experience of collectable card game tournaments in the UK is that one speaks of someone as being '3 and 2'. This may be a result of American dominance of the industry though. Algebraist 22:07, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

After Umteen decades, the first time I ever came across "3 and 2" and understood what it meant was this summer. I had heard it before but never realised that it was a report of some results. (I'm UKish.) -- SGBailey (talk) 22:11, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"3 and 2" sounds like a matchplay score. DuncanHill (talk) 22:13, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the term for the "3 and 2"-type scoring is Win-Loss Record, although that page currently points to an article on Baseball, which could explain why it is prevalent in the US vs. the UK. You'll also sometimes see the number of tie (draw) results given as a third number, which leads to the pun in the gameshow title Win, Lose or Draw. -- 128.104.112.147 (talk) 00:15, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are a couple of reasons why this form would be more common in the U.S. First, soccer ranks teams using "points" rather than strictly by a won-loss record. So while a baseball fan may say the team is 3-2, a soccer fan is more likely to say the team has 9 points through five games. Second, British sports standings use the form wins-draws-losses, so the team in question would actually be 3-0-2. Baseball and basketball have no ties (draws), while hockey and American football put draws at the end: 3-2-0. Ties are so rare in American football that they're usually left out. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:26, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Mwalcoff. See also Group tournament ranking system. I think soccer usage has influenced British usage in sports like rugby and boxing where draws are rarer. jnestorius^(talk) 13:23, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Filipino

What are some Filipino words that were included in the International English Dictionary? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.224.52.44 (talk) 23:14, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dunno about that dictionary, but we have an article List of English words of Tagalog origin. Fribbler (talk) 10:02, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

September 4

French translation

In music, what would the word dehors mean, as in trés en dehors or fort et trés en dehors? 220.244.104.23 (talk) 10:11, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A google search for "en dehors" suggests it means "emphasised". Fribbler (talk) 11:19, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Our article Musical terminology says en dehors means "prominently" (Musical terminology#E). DuncanHill (talk) 12:39, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe it means "outside". In a musical context, a line or part marked "en dehors" should stand outside of the the other parts, which should be inside, or in the background. Thomprod (talk) 02:22, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

learning french

does anyone know a good teach yourself course/book or anything for learning french from scratch that is based on learning and understanding the grammatical structure of the language as opposed to the seemingly popular system of just rote learning? thank you. Philc 0780 20:20, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I know what you mean by "rote learning," but the best French program I've ever encountered is French in Action. It's all in French—no English comparisons, but it's clear and thorough and rarely gets frustrating. The workbook of the program discusses grammar in detail, and there is no rote memorization because each lessons expands off of the last and there is enough repetition that you memorize words naturally..--El aprendelenguas (talk) 00:28, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rote learning is often used where I come from to describe learning from repetition as opposed to learning from understanding. Sorry, I didn't realise it may not be in common circulation. 92.21.120.224 (talk) 10:23, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

People learn in different ways, and often misjudge the difficulty of learning another language, especially after adolescence. One issue is what you mean by "learn a language." Learn to read it? Learn to write it? Understand it when spoken? Speak it? And for each of those: in what context?

So I'll respond to the question with a question: what do you want to learn French for? Do you want to read literature? Understand French films without subtitles? Feel comfortable on vacation? Get a job in a francophone environment?

You might take a look at online offerings like Frenchpod or Coffee Break French. If you already speak some French but don't have much chance to practice, my original research suggests you can get a lot more practice in an immersive online environment like Second Life; I've used more French there (both in text and in voice chat) during the past eight months than in the previous eight years. --- OtherDave (talk) 11:46, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have been to France a few times and I love it, though I speak next to no French and have relied heavily on friends who are bilingual, I prefer it there to the UK and would probably want to be able to stay there for extended periods of time, so really the full whack, learn to read and speak the language in both formal and informal contexts. Philc 0780 13:29, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

You might seek out textbooks used in courses to teach French reading comprehension to graduate students. In such courses, the students are mainly interested in learning just enough of the language to be able to read French-language technical articles in their own academic area -- and the corresponding textbooks make little pretense to teaching conversational skills, and have a higher proportion of grammatical analysis, and a much lower proportion of drill than texts aimed at ordinary undergrauate-level language classes... AnonMoos (talk) 13:06, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Any college text should be helpful in this regard.` The Jade Knight (talk) 09:21, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia actually has significant grammatical information available in its articles, there is also a Wikibook on French, and Wikiversity also has a French Department. The Jade Knight (talk) 09:21, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

September 5

Scunthorpe

What do residents of Scunthorpe call themselves? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 1000kA (talk • contribs) 00:56, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The escape committee? Sorry, couldn't resist it. DuncanHill (talk) 09:40, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dave, Steve, Andrea, Alison, Tom, Peter...But more seriously I (and I live around 40 miles from Scunthorpe) refer to the place as 'Scunny' and quite a lot of people seem to refer to it as that. To be fair that's more the place than the people though. I doubt they are called 'scunthorpians' (like mancunians or liverpudians) by anybody. There isn't distinctive enoguh of a Scunthorpe accent to warrant its own name/locational reference, plus it doesn't lend itself to a short-form description (for obvious reasons) as well as some would. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 09:47, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Per Google, the most common form is Scunthorpian, followed distantly by Scunthorper, Scunnyite, and Scunnier. Marco polo (talk) 20:15, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Translation requested

I'm translating Twinkle for the french wiki. However, due to my null understanding of French language, I'll like to request translation of the next words:

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Thanks, Macy 03:07, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

French instruction videos

Hi, I'm just curious about some videos that I had seen. They were for people learning French, and had a 1980s look to them. All the dialogues were in French, and the lessons were episodes with stories. The main characters were a young man and a young lady, and the young man's name was Vincent. He had a cute face and brown hair. The young lady was also cute, and reminded me of the teacher from Carrusel.

There are two episodes that I remember. One was where Vincent was invited to a family with kids. There was a budgie in a cage but Vincent made a mistake and the bird got away. Another episode was where Vincent and the young lady were working at the front desk of a hotel, instead of someone else. Vincent was saying things like "C'est facile!" and he was all smiles. But then lots of people rushed in at once and he ended up saying "C'est tres difficile," or something like that.

I think the video was sponsored by the académie française but I'm not sure about that. Does anyone have any idea what the title could be? --Kjoonlee 03:25, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It wouldn't be "French in Action", would it? I remember watching that in my high school French classes. I don't really remember the plots of the various episodes, but I do my buddies and I drooling over the cute French girl in it. Dgcopter (talk) 19:18, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it's French in Action. I must admit I've only seen the first 26 of the total 52 episode of French in Action, but the young man's name is Robert, and in the first 26 episodes there's no scenario of Robert and Mireille (the young lady) working at a hotel. Granted, one of the later episodes could feature that I suppose, but the characters wouldn't just be saying "C'est facile" and "C'est très dificile" that late in the program.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 22:49, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Corrupted Spanish word for misprinted/overstock clothing worn by impoverished citizens in Latin America?

I have /heard/ this word in casual conversation 2 or 3 times in the past year. It seems that there is a Spanish or "Spanglish" TERM used in the United States for misprinted/ overstock/ teams-that-didn't win clothing that is donated to charities an worn in Latin America.

No amount of Google-ing or other research is giving me any answers...perhaps because I have no Spanish language skills and additionally no memory of the way the word sounds!

Thanks in advance.

221.218.168.101 (talk) 14:56, 5 September 2008 (UTC)KB_in_Beijing[reply]

As a note, I DID find information about Africa: [2] In Togo, the castoffs are called "dead white men's clothing." Few people in that West African country believe that a living person would throw away anything this good. Consumers in Uganda, Kenya and Tanzania call the used clothing mitumba, the Swahili word for bale. 221.218.168.101 (talk) 15:12, 5 September 2008 (UTC) KB_in_Beijing[reply]

I spent some time on Google España looking at pages in Spanish that talk about mitumba [3] [4], but even though they actually borrow the Swahili word mitumba in the articles, they make no single-word Spanish equivalent. The best they can say is ropa de segunda mano (="second hand clothing"). If there were a popular Spanish word for this, I'd expect one of the article to say "...mitumba, or _________ when it's donated to Latin American countries..." but I haven't found that. I'd guess the word you heard was a part of a jargon limited to the clothing industry. I also found this article, which refers to the clothing as ropa barata de hombre blanco (="cheap white man's clothing"), albeit a translation of what you said above with no evidence that Spanish people would actually use that term in conversation. I also found this page, which refers to "vintage" clothes as ropa de moda tata, but of course I'm aware that "vintage" and "second hand" are not the same thing. The word you heard might very well have been an English word in a Spanish accent (Spanglish, as you mentioned). If so, you might find an English term somewhere online that comes close to what you heard. (If you're interested in any of the Spanish articles here, you can run them through Google translator to read them.)--El aprendelenguas (talk) 22:42, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In Zambia it's called salaula, Bemba for "rummage". That could pass for a Spanish word.... jnestorius^(talk) 22:52, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Translation assistance request

Would anyone be interested in helping me with an English to Latin or Latin to English translation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.151.147.129 (talk) 16:38, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, if it's not homework, we'd all be happy to help. Adam Bishop (talk) 19:00, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Unless it's a whole book or something, in which case you're really going to have to pay someone to do it. Algebraist 19:07, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You mean like Certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse? --- OtherDave (talk) 22:57, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

September 6

Czech name

How is the Czech name "Marie" pronounced? I believe it is different from the French and German one, but I am not sure about the syllables. Please do not use IPA, I can barely read it. It should either be pronounced "mah-ree-eh" or "mah-ree-ah". Which one of these is correct? Or maybe both are wrong? Vltava 68 ^{(talk, contribs)} 01:47, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

After skimming over Czech_phonology and Czech_phonetic_transcription, my educated guess is ['mariɛ], or per your request, MAH-ree-eh, where that last vowel "eh" is most like the e in bet. Perhaps someone more skilled than I am in Czech phonology can approve my pronunciation or correct it.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 18:01, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't speak Czech, but being a native speaker of a closely related language, I suppose "Marie" is pronounced as two syllables, not three, that is ['ma·rʲɛ] in IPA, or MAH-ryeh. The R should be rolled and softened (palatalized) by the following I. — Kpalion^(talk) 21:50, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tenses in french

What is the difference in meaning between the pluperfect tense and the past anterior tense. Thanks. Philc 0780 14:35, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, my French reference book in which I could have found this answer right away is not with me now. I looked through some of Wikipedia's French-language articles and could not find a definitive answer. If it's anything like Spanish, though (as I suspect it is), the past anterior tense is very rarely used and only under a limited amount of circumstances. Plus, it is strictly a literary tense (much like the preterite in French), and outside of literature with fuzzy-old-style-Shakespearianesque writing, you won't encounter it.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 17:47, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The pluperfect (plus-que-parfait) is usually translated as "had done (something)."

J'avais cherché / I had looked for (searched for).

The past anterior (passé antérieur) is a literary form of pluperfect.

J'eus cherché / I had looked for (searched for).

"Used in literature and historical accounts to indicate an action in the past that occurred before another action in the past," it says here. Something like passe simple, also used in formal writing and very formal speech. --- OtherDave (talk) 18:08, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(I clarified the English translations a bit... shouldn't post when I'm tired. --- OtherDave (talk) 20:26, 7 September 2008 (UTC))[reply]

September 7

Coger

The Spanish word coger has many uses, like "grab, get, take." In some places in Latin America, its usage even includes "fuck." Is anyone aware if there is some kind of etymological connection between coger and the meaning "fuck"? Did one of the already-established meanings of coger lead to the meaning "fuck" (much like, I would assume, "screw" came to include the meaning "fuck")? Or does this meaning come from slang of uncertain origin? The RAE doesn't say much about it, but it does recognize the definition "realizar el acto sexual." Thanks!--El aprendelenguas (talk) 19:55, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

September 8

stairs

If there exist words such as these--

acetabuliform shaped like a shallow cup or saucer
acinaciform scimitar-shaped
aciniform shaped like a berry
aculeiform shaped like a thorn
adeniform shaped like a gland

--what would be the word for "shaped like a stair case" or "shaped like stairs" or "shaped like a series of rising steps"? "Stairiform"? Was there a Latin word for stairs or steps? 128.239.177.28 (talk) 01:47, 8 September 2008 (UTC)CantSpeakLatin[reply]

[1] Chambers 20th Century Dictionary, New Edition 1983, p. 861

[1]