Talk:Barack Obama
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Family and religious background Q1: Why isn't Barack Obama's Muslim heritage or education included in this article?
A1: Barack Obama was never a practitioner of Islam. His biological father having been "raised as a Muslim" but being a "confirmed atheist" by the time Obama was born is mentioned in the article. Please see this article on Snopes.com for a fairly in-depth debunking of the myth that Obama is Muslim. Barack Obama did not attend an Islamic or Muslim school while living in Indonesia age 6–10, but Roman Catholic and secular public schools. See [1], [2], [3] The sub-articles Public image of Barack Obama and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories address this issue. Q2: The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ("biracial", "mixed", "Kenyan-American", "mulatto", "quadroon", etc.)?
A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. African American is primarily defined as "citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa", a statement that accurately describes Obama and does not preclude or negate origins in the white populations of America as well. Thus we use the term African American in the introduction, and address the specifics of his parentage in the first headed section of the article. Many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Wikipedia is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American". Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body. Q3: Why can't we use his full name outside of the lead? It's his name, isn't it?
A3: The relevant part of the Manual of Style says that outside the lead of an article on a person, that person's conventional name is the only one that's appropriate. (Thus one use of "Richard Milhous Nixon" in the lead of Richard Nixon, "Richard Nixon" thereafter.) Talk page consensus has also established this. Q4: Why is Obama referred to as "Barack Hussein Obama II" in the lead sentence rather than "Barack Hussein Obama, Jr."? Isn't "Jr." more common?
A4: Although "Jr." is typically used when a child shares the name of his or her parent, "II" is considered acceptable, as well. And in Obama's case, the usage on his birth certificate is indeed "II", and is thus the form used at the beginning of this article, per manual of style guidelines on names. Q5: Why don't we cover the claims that Obama is not a United States citizen, his birth certificate was forged, he was not born in Hawaii, he is ineligible to be President, etc?
A5: The Barack Obama article consists of an overview of major issues in the life and times of the subject. The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article. These claims are covered separately in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. Controversies, praise, and criticism Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section?
A6: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praise and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per the Criticism essay. Q7: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article?
A7: Wikipedia's Biography of living persons policy says that "[c]riticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about Obama in a single article would exceed Wikipedia's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles. Q8: But this controversy/criticism/praise is all over the news right now! It should be covered in detail in the main article, not buried in a sub-article!
A8: Wikipedia articles should avoid giving undue weight to something just because it is in the news right now. If you feel that the criticism/controversy/praise is not being given enough weight in this article, you can try to start a discussion on the talk page about giving it more. See WP:BRD. Q9: This article needs much more (or much less) criticism/controversy.
A9: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Wikipedia, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored. Talk and article mechanics Q10: This article is over 275kb long, and the article size guideline says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened?
A10: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 60kB of readable prose, not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of May 11, 2016, this article had about 10,570 words of readable prose (65 kB according to prosesize tool), only slightly above the guideline. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit. Q11: I notice this FAQ mentions starting discussions or joining in on existing discussions a lot. If Wikipedia is supposed to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, shouldn't I just be bold and fix any biases that I see in the article?
A11: It is true that Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and no one needs the permission of other editors of this article to make changes to it. But Wikipedia policy is that, "While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful and is encouraged." This article attracts editors that have very strong opinions about Obama (positive and negative) and these editors have different opinions about what should and should not be in the article, including differences as to appropriate level of detail. As a result of this it may be helpful, as a way to avoid content disputes, to seek consensus before adding contentious material to or removing it from the article. Q12: The article/talk page has been vandalized! Why hasn't anyone fixed this?
A12: Many editors watch this article, and it is unlikely that vandalism would remain unnoticed for long. It is possible that you are viewing a cached result of the article; If so, try bypassing your cache. Q13: Why are so many discussions closed so quickly?
A13: Swift closure is common for topics that have already been discussed repeatedly, topics pushing fringe theories, and topics that would lead to violations of Wikipedia's policy concerning biographies of living persons, because of their disruptive nature and the unlikelihood that consensus to include the material will arise from the new discussion. In those cases, editors are encouraged to read this FAQ for examples of such common topics. Q14: I added new content to the article, but it was removed!
A14: Double-check that your content addition is not sourced to an opinion blog, editorial, or non-mainstream news source. Wikipedia's policy on biographies of living persons states, in part, "Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it may include original research and unverifiable statements, and could lead to libel claims." Sources of information must be of a very high quality for biographies. While this does not result in an outright ban of all blogs and opinion pieces, most of them are regarded as questionable. Inflammatory or potentially libelous content cited to a questionable source will be removed immediately without discussion. Q15: I disagree with the policies and content guidelines that prevent my proposed content from being added to the article.
A15: That's understandable. Wikipedia is a work in progress. If you do not approve of a policy cited in the removal of content, it's possible to change it. Making cogent, logical arguments on the policy's talk page is likely to result in a positive alteration. This is highly encouraged. However, this talk page is not the appropriate place to dispute the wording used in policies and guidelines. If you disagree with the interpretation of a policy or guideline, there is also recourse: Dispute resolution. Using the dispute resolution process prevents edit wars, and is encouraged. Q16: I saw someone start a discussion on a topic raised by a blog/opinion piece, and it was reverted!
A16: Unfortunately, due to its high profile, this talk page sees a lot of attempts to argue for policy- and guideline-violating content – sometimes the same violations many times a day. These are regarded as disruptive, as outlined above. Consensus can change; material previously determined to be unacceptable may become acceptable. But it becomes disruptive and exhausting when single-purpose accounts raise the same subject(s) repeatedly in the apparent hopes of overcoming significant objections by other editors. Editors have reached a consensus for dealing with this behavior:
Other Q17: Why aren't the 2008 and 2012 presidential campaigns covered in more detail?
A17: They are, in sub-articles called Barack Obama 2008 presidential campaign and Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign. Things that are notable in the context of the presidential campaigns, but are of minimal notability to Barack Obama's overall biography, belong in the sub-articles. Campaign stops, the presidential debates, and the back-and-forth accusations and claims of the campaigns can all be found there. |
![]() | Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Barack Obama article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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TFA heads up
FYI - this article is going to be tomorrow's featured article (Nov 4). Per the compromise noted in the log, I've upped the FA protection level to full/cascading, for 25 hours. Raul654 (talk) 23:49, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
- That, uh, was not the compromise that was made, incidentally. I'm not going to wheel war, but this sort of breaks the promise I made to everyone that the article would not be fully protected until absolutely necessary, 12:00AM Nov 4th at the earliest. ~ L'Aquatique! [talk/stats] 23:56, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
- You're complaining that I protected it
512 minutes early? Raul654 (talk) 23:57, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
- You're complaining that I protected it
I think the complaint is that it was protected hours early. TFA's don't always get full-protection. Why now? Grsz11 →Review! 00:18, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- Depends on where you are in the world. Check your signature. --GoodDamon 00:20, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- FA? Are you kidding? Wikidemon (talk) 00:21, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- Um, wow. You aren't kidding.Wikidemon (talk) 00:21, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- It's kind of cool that the article's back up there. :) Brothejr (talk) 00:24, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- Um, wow. You aren't kidding.Wikidemon (talk) 00:21, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- When L'Aquatique said "November 4" I would assume actual election activity November 4. Polls don't open for another 11 and a half hours. Grsz11 →Review! 00:24, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- I assumed the same. Does that also mean that the articles are moved off the main page in 24 hours? That would be before the polls close in most places. ~ priyanath talk 00:26, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- Not to mention that now Obama and McCain are full, while Palin and Biden are still semi, which was quite against consensus. Grsz11 →Review! 00:28, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, it is. For the record, when I made the compromise my intention was to have these articles protected around the same time polls started opening on the east coast. These articles being featured on the front page complicates it, because if we keep them up on the front page unprotected, it'll be bad. But watching them get protected earlier than I promised bothers me as well. I am going to try to keep the VP bios unprotected until the promised time, we'll see what happens. ~ L'Aquatique! [talk/stats] 00:32, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- Not to mention that now Obama and McCain are full, while Palin and Biden are still semi, which was quite against consensus. Grsz11 →Review! 00:28, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- I assumed the same. Does that also mean that the articles are moved off the main page in 24 hours? That would be before the polls close in most places. ~ priyanath talk 00:26, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- FA? Are you kidding? Wikidemon (talk) 00:21, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- Depends on where you are in the world. Check your signature. --GoodDamon 00:20, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Archive pls?
Can y'all please archive some of this talk page before mainpage hits? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:47, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
- I'm closing a number of discussions as resolved... I hope that's the right way to go about it and that the closures are not controversial - feel free to undo my closures and give me a trout-slap if not. I might combine a few repeated discussions. Perhaps someone would want to archive them. Wikidemon (talk) 00:28, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- I guess this[4] did the trick. Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 00:33, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Remove big template box
Could someone remove the big ugly template box at the top of the article? The twin main page article for today, John McCain, is also protected but just has the nice gold-colored lock icon off to the side, and doesn't have the big ugly template box that this article has. Tempshill (talk) 00:27, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- Done. Gimmetrow 00:53, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks! Tempshill (talk) 01:11, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Punctuation of "African American"
At present the article has "African American", "African-American" and "African–American". Could we have consistency? Nurg (talk) 00:31, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- In my quick hunt through the MOS I see no preferred version. There is a rejected style guide, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (immigrant ethnic groups), that does not address hyphenation other than to say usages "vary". The Hyphenated American article claims that most style guides recommend dropping the hyphen except when the term is used as an adjective, but it cites only one such guide[5] that does not say this so clearly. At a Q&A page the Chicago Manual of Style recommends against the hyphen entirely.[6] At Talk:African American#hyphen there is no agreement. At Wikipedia talk:African American there is a comment that the matter is ad-hoc here, but consistent within an article. All in all I would vote for changing them all to "African American" without the hyphen. Wikidemon (talk) 00:51, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Barack Obama as a Law Professor at UCI
Here is an article quoting the UC administration that he was never a professor of law at the school, but was essentially an adjunct professor(or Lecturer). This is important since it is the introduction and does not accurately describe his position within the university. This is also important, because UC came out and actually said that he was not a Constitutional Law professor. I think this is important and should be updated/changed.
Here is the article : http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2008/03/sweet_obama_did_hold_the_title.html Dgreco (talk) 3 November 2008 (UTC)
- It doesn't say he was. It says he "taught constitutional law". Grsz11 →Review! 00:49, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
'African American'
Obama is not an African American. he is not a negro. his background is Kenyan, so it should say Kenyan American, not African American. Kenya is in Africa, because Africa is a continent, but America is not a continent, so for the sake of consistency and logic if one were to persist with using the word African, it would be African-North American. Otherwise Kenyan American us the correct term. I doubt this will get changed though, people in the US just assume that if you're black you're a negro and an African American —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.219.117.97 (talk) 00:47, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- That's an interesting point; is there any precedence for this though (either IRL or on Wikipedia)? — pd_THOR | =/\= | 00:50, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
In my quick hunt through the MOS I see no preferred version. There is a rejected style guide, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (immigrant ethnic groups), that does not address hyphenation other than to say usages "vary". The Hyphenated American article claims that most style guides recommend dropping the hyphen except when the term is used as an adjective, but it cites only one such guide[7] that does not say this so clearly. At a Q&A page the Chicago Manual of Style recommends against the hyphen entirely.[8] At Talk:African American#hyphen there is no agreement. At Wikipedia talk:African American there is a comment that the matter is ad-hoc here, but consistent within an article. All in all I would vote for changing them all to "African American" without the hyphen. Wikidemon (talk) 00:51, 4 November 2008 (UTC)- I (and the IP) was referring to the idea of specifying the ancestry of "Kenyan" as opposed to just "African". — pd_THOR | =/\= | 00:54, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- On the surface your request makes sense, but that catagory only applies to persons born in various countries. African American is justified in this case since Obama was born in the U.S. and not Kenya.--Jojhutton (talk) 00:57, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- I've stricken my earlier answer. It was intended for the section on hyphenation. Regarding the racial designation, please see FAQ #2 (expand the FAQ at the top of this page). This issue has been discussed repeatedly, and there is strong long-term consensus for calling Obama African-American as a primary ethnic designation, then describing his background in more detail (as has been done) in the article. It is a combination of his self-identification and the overwhelming weight of reliable sources. Although there is a lot of history, politics, and arbitrariness in the words used to describe race, ethnicity, nationality, ancestry, etc., Wikipedia's choice is to follow the most universal reasonable standards rather than to be at the forefront of changing language. Wikidemon (talk) 01:01, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- Cf. European-American or Asian-American. --Evb-wiki (talk) 01:06, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe one day we won't even have this discussion. I don't see in the John McCain article where we spend one kb of effort to describe him as Irish American (although I do note something in one of the article's category). I don't care that Obama is anything, I care only about what he may or may not do for this country. But, I'm like standing against a tsunami here, so I just think this discussion is queerly (meant as strange not a gay pejorative) American. Sigh. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 01:13, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- Cf. European-American or Asian-American. --Evb-wiki (talk) 01:06, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- I've stricken my earlier answer. It was intended for the section on hyphenation. Regarding the racial designation, please see FAQ #2 (expand the FAQ at the top of this page). This issue has been discussed repeatedly, and there is strong long-term consensus for calling Obama African-American as a primary ethnic designation, then describing his background in more detail (as has been done) in the article. It is a combination of his self-identification and the overwhelming weight of reliable sources. Although there is a lot of history, politics, and arbitrariness in the words used to describe race, ethnicity, nationality, ancestry, etc., Wikipedia's choice is to follow the most universal reasonable standards rather than to be at the forefront of changing language. Wikidemon (talk) 01:01, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Watch how a wiki works in real time
Here is an opportunity for people new to Wikipedia to see how editors constantly strive to improve our content. Discussions about how to improve the brief paragraphs that appear on Wikipedia's main page can be found at Wikipedia talk:Today's featured article/November 4, 2008 (just click the link). As well, you can see a history of the changes that have already been made here on the article history. Welcome to Wikipedia. Please feel free to edit this talk page, and offer your suggestions on how this article can be improved. Risker (talk) 01:05, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Birthplace is not official
Obama has ordered his birth certificate sealed. Since this public figure is keeping his certificate hidden, as far as I'm concerned, his birth information is unconfirmed, merely his say so. He's also, for some odd reason, ordered Kenya not to reveal any birth information about himself. Why would that be, unless he was born there? Why would he have to tell Kenya to seal "his" records? What records? Why would an American-born presidential candidate have to tell Kenya to officially seal "his" birth records? Very, very odd. GBC (talk) 01:15, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- That's part of a perennial conspiracy theory that Obama is not really American. This has been repeatedly addressed here. Please see question #5 among the frequently asked questions at the top of the page (expand by clicking on the FAQ hyperlink). Wikidemon (talk) 01:22, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Why archive active discussions?
Active discussions have been archived. Why? I've never seen that before. WP:ARCHIVE: "It is customary to periodically archive old discussions on a talk page when that page becomes too large." Is an article last updated several dozen minutes ago too "old"? I continue to get the sense that people are using Wikipedia to support a candidate.
I urge people to look at the latest archive to see conversations that were active only hours before. If you want to talk about them again, you'll have to bring them here now, to a new section you may create. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 01:19, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
"Obama also established close relationships with prominent foreign politicians and elected officials even before his presidential candidacy, notably with former British Prime minister Tony Blair, whom he met in London in 2005"
This is the wikipedia quote. It states that Obama has close relationships with elected officals and then mentions Tony Blair as the former British PM. It should state "then current British Prime Minister"
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